Disassembly of Harley Davidson Evo Motor that Locked Up
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2017
- EDIT: I now do not believe hydrolock was the cause. Disassembly of a 1992 Harley Davidson EVO motor that had previously locked up at 70 mph. Showing the steps of the tear down and inspection of the parts in determining the cause of the lock up.
The last ride of this motorcycle:
Motorcycle Museum Ride Marquette, KS and Death of My Harley
• Motorcycle Museum Ride... orcycle
My Motorcycle and Repairs Playlist:
• 1974 CB550 Chopper Build
A very in depth video:
Harley-Davidson Evolution Engine Disassembly and Re-assembly
• Harley-Davidson Evolut... 
Хобби
I'm sorry but I do not agree with the theory that the back cylinder hydro locked causing the failure as shown. My reasoning is really quite simple.
1. You stated that the engine inexplicably locked up without warning. In order for the amount of oil required to lock up the rear cylinder to accumulate a number of things would have given you warning but the most relevant would be the spark plug fouling with oil and ceasing to fire. You said no warning and I would consider that a warning. Unfortunately you did not indicate whether the rear exhaust pipe and exhaust port had any accumulation of oil present so I am assuming that this was not noted or in fact present.
2. If the rear cylinder had hydro locked, the rear rod would have been destroyed and probably round housed the case when it bent and broke. The video clearly shows the rod to be in pretty fair condition and in fact turning freely on the crank pin.
3. The rear piston and head show no signs of there being any hydro lock damage yet there was oil present during disassembly. Hydro lock this severe would normally cause some damage to the piston and quite possibly stretch the cylinder studs to the breaking point yet there is no evidence of this.
4. Was the motor on it's side at any point in time prior to the tear down? If so, this could be the reason for the presence of oil as it leaked past the rings from the bottom end while on its side.
5. When you pulled the cam out I noticed there was only one washer behind it. Where is the second washer with the locating tabs that should have been behind that against the pinion case? Was it present and you neglected to show it or was it in fact not present at all? Could be the possible source of the metal shards if it disintegrated. And then there is the matter of the missing washer on the timed breather cylinder of the oil pump and the shavings on the cylinder itself. Again, missing or disintegrated?
6. In the video, you did not open up the oil pump pressure side and examine it for shards or the possibility of it being siezed or having failed other than when you removed the cover on the scavenging side of the pump which contained oil. Another critical telltale would be the presence of debris in the pressure relief valve located on the top of the pump pressure side. If debris had lodged in the relief valve it could prevent it from closing fully which in turn would cause possible oil starvation. Roller bearing bottom ends do not produce a great deal of oil pressure but do require a tremendous flow to keep the rollers cool and lubricated. SInce the contact points on roller bearing engines are so small in comparison to shell bearing motors any lack of oil or any contamination will have disastrous effects on the bearings themselves causing them to flat spot and sieze.
7. After you split the cases there is a great deal of evidence that what infact caused this failure was oil that was contaminated with metal shards that entered the outer timken bearing causing it to seize and break the crank pin. It is quite apparent that something, either the breather washer or the missing cam washer did in fact disintegrate which in turn supplied the medium for the bearings failure. You yourself stated that the outer bearing fell apart when the case was pressed off. Another telltale is the fact that the output side of the case was cracked which would seem to support the theory that the timkens failed and the crank flexed enough to contact the case or some shrapnel was lodged between the wheel and the case immediately prior to failure. Another thing that would indicate bearing failure is the fact that the left side of the crank was forced out of alignment and wedged tight to the case. Since a Timken is a tapered bearing as it failed it would tend to pull the crank in the direction of the bearing that was failing. Had it been the inner timken, the crank would have forced towards the pinion case but the end result would have been pretty much the same.
If I was a betting man I would say that one or both of the missing washers disintegrated due to a lack of oil or excess clearance due to wear and tear. They in turn entered the oil system which in turn siezed the rollers in the outer bearing causing catastrophic failure and the weakest part of the crank being the crank pin failed under the excessive load. I have seen two engines that suffered hydro lock over the years and in both cases the rod bent and gave way. (One was a boat that sank while running and the other was a severely cracked head that allowed the coolant to enter the cylinder via the intake port.) Since there is no evidence of rod failure or in fact any bending or rod bearing failure, nor at any point did the rear cylinder stop firing due to the presence of excess oil and subsequent fouling, I cannot support the theory of a hydro lock. Just my observations based on past experience with other motors.
Sir, I want to first of all Thank You for the very detail description and analysis of the video and mu motor, This is exactly the response that I had been looking for. Thank You and Thank You for understanding that I am totally untrained and that this was done by the aid of other videos, my manual and advice of others. I will address some of your points.
1-3 My theory of Hydrolock came from my Neighbor. I based my decision based on the oil and his past knowledge of motorcycles. Although, from what I have since learned..I too doubt this theory. I agree that my theory on hydrolocking is most likely in error.
4. Yes, the motor had been tipped. I did not consider that. I had been asked if the bike was on its side, but besides a lean..no, it had not been..but I totally forgot the motor had tipped while on the work bench.
5-6 I had questioned to my self about those 2 missing washers, based upon the manual but was unsure. Thank You for pointing this out and verifying that YES there should have been washers there. Great catch, Thank You!! I now believe that they had disintegrated and explained the metal that was in the gear case.
6-7 I am pretty certain that you are exactly right, and if you were a betting man, I think you would win that bet!!! There have been a few guesses as to how, but most without a root cause as to why this would have happened. Your explanation gives me not only the how..but also the why based upon the condition of the engine and parts that I showed.
Thank You Again Sir for taking the time to point out what I was plainly missing and not seeing. I can now feel a bit better as well that this was most likely caused by wear and tear and not anything that the shop had done (or not done) in the time that they had it.
GREAT REPLY!!!!
You are most welcome Sir.
Hi Norman I am so sure you are spot on, my 1975 Ducati lost a valve and locked when the piston struck the valve, bending the con-rod and destroying the head....
Thanks Lee and Norman, I learned a bunch.
Agree with a no go on the hydrolock theory. Only ever seen hydrolock on motors that took on water. Not saying impossible, just unlikely. There is no obvious way to supply that much oil to the cylinder quickly unless something else broke first.
This is the way I wish all social media worked. You made an earnest effort to find out what went wrong and invited knowledgeable folks to offer up advice, which they did, and without flaming or copy/pasting what they can find on a quick Google. Glad you came out OK with the lock up.
What an awesome comment!!! I agree, I know that this was the original intention of the internet..and in its infancy it did behave that way. It is sad to see how it has transformed.. With that being said, I have been blown away by all the helpful and knowledgeable people that have stepped forward to help and give me insight as to the cause..yes I still get the constant barrage of lesser types of comments, but they are far outweighed by those who have helped me figure out what happened. I have learned so much from this community and am Thankful for it. Thank You for such an insightful comment!! ATB, Lee
Thank you ! Its quite the honor to look over the shoulder of a master !!!
That is very very kind of you Sir...but truly I am just a avid motorcycle rider, a novice with little to no experience at all...but Thank You!
From what I've seen and heard, that shop owes you a new engine.
Craig, I agree...but they do not see it that way sadly
@@LeeRalph100 what did it cost ya to repair?
Thanks Lee and all your volunteer detectives. Fascinating video. I have done enough work on my bikes to know that I need more knowledge. Watched and learned !
Thank You for the awesome comment. I have had many not so nice comments LOL There are so many knowledgeable people commenting here that make up for it though. I have learned so much from those willing to share that knowledge. Thanks Again, Take care, Lee
Thank you for your video. By making this video you helped me figure out why my motor locked up. Parts are on order, and she should be up and running in a few weeks.
Thanks again
That is cool to hear!!! I was just jumping blindly into mine, so it is great to hear it help someone. Keep me informed of your progress. Take care!
Thanks to you for posting this and to Mr Norman May for his excellent post, I have no doubt a lot of people like me will have learned from seeing this and appreciate it as much as I do. I hope your work pays off and wish you loads of trouble free miles in riding in the confidence that you fixed it yourself and now really know your bike.
.I have been totally amazed at all the great responses. I too have learned a great deal!! Norman's response rocked!!!
I have always been a bit hesitant to tackle big jobs on my bike, if nothing else this has given me the encouragement need to go ahead try the repairs myself...as You mentioned at that point I will truly know my bike! Thank You for the very Kind comment..
You know when you do videos like this it feels like I am in your garage with ya! The way you filmed it is great!
Flint, You are very kind, and you gave me a big smile, Thank You Brother!! That truly means a lot to me!
I want to add, it would have been great having you here during the tear down!
This vid has almost made it to 700 comments !! Awesome vid and great comments from many of you !!! That’s why I love RUclips !! And that’s why I love this awesome universe with all you awesome Kool bikers that always points me in the positive direction of fixing my bikes when parts fail !!
Thank You Sir!! I am totally blown away by your very kind comment.
There are so many that are quick to point out the negatives with YT...forgetting what brought many of us here in the first place., sharing of thoughts and ideas and a sense of community. Your comment hit me as well with that reminder, Thank You!! ATB, Lee
you say Harley shop. if you're talking about a licensed dealership take them to small claims court. they will not want Milwaukee to know they screwed up and that should change their mind about fixing it. that's exactly what I did and I got my motor fixed.
I'm glad that you made it out safe. I have a difficult time trusting anyone to work on anything of mine. I hope you got her back together successfully.
Thank You..it was a scary ride for sure!!!! I think l I will start doing my own wrenching at this point...at least I will know who to blame LOL
Thanks for the kind comment
Absolute pleasure watching a craftsman at work most interesting.
I would say I am far from a Craftsman, Thank You, You are much to Kind Sir.
Fascinating, watching someone working on an old farm tractor engine.
Thanks for watching
Nice video,Thank you for sharing!!
Thank You and Thanks for Watching and for the comment!
Great challenge, I have never gone past the top end and never thought I could trust myself to do a lower end. Maybe this will be on my bucket list.
I am glad this was helpful. I felt the same before tearing into this. I good service manual is a must. I will also recommend the video I have in my description box, it was very helpful. It allowed me to "see" some things I just did not full grasp in the manual. Thanks for watching, the comment, and I wish all the best! Good Luck!
Thank You for doing a serious video, I am totally helpless with engines, and I rather watch others.
Best wh. from Sweden.
Thank You so much for the kind words!! I hope this was of some help! All the Best, Lee
Glad you're alive🙏🏻
Thank You Sir!! That is very Kind!!
Someone get this man an impact wrench! In all seriousness good video, and it looks like you have some answers. Best of luck.
LOL We don't need no stinking impact LOL You know the part that surprised the heck out of me was the compensator nut...I expected it to take a lot to break it loose...it was no problem at all...that should have been a warning sign!!! Thank You!!
Totally agree Mr. Ralph. I have been doing some highly detailed work on a large variety of mechanical components for a considerable number of years, and have never owned an impact wrench! On several occasions I have resorted to torque multipliers, but this has been in applications where several hundreds of lb.ft have been utilised. Impact tools produce high levels of stress and shock loadings, which can lead to stressing of metal components, including crankshafts, to the point where cracks are intiated with subsequent failure of the component, perhaps even years later.
Cheers from Indonesia.
A Big Thumb's Up From Kip Hayes in Macon, Ga. Lee .......what ever caused it, i hope you discover it.......the video is worth it all....... sorry for your loss of the engine .......but the presentation to a layman was second to none!!! I Thank YOU!!!
So Sorry for the late response.. Out of all the comments... I think Your is one of the best I have received. Thanks You so much for the Kind words and awesome Comment!!! Take Care, and ATB, Lee
Congratulations on 68k views. I remember when you made this one. Great job Lee.
Thanks My Friend!! I am totally shocked at this!!!!!! I did not expect this at all!!! Take care my Friend...oh and keep us updated if you end up buying one of those bikes in your video!!!! Take Care!!
70k views today...awesome. I will never buy a motorcycle....not comfortable on the road with cars. My son has a Sportster...I have a few videos on it....
Looks like the shop that changed your state put the washer on the wrong side of the rotor. When they overturned the comp nut it drove in on the sprocket shaft (timken) bearing. When it heated up it expanded and locked it up. When your guy droped the case it freed it up. Oh and he cracked your case half on the press.
Great comment here!!!! Thanks for your thoughts on this!
I second that diag. good eye. and yeah the press broke the case.... "seen it covered it" lol.
Sherlock to the rescue!
@@heikkiparviainen6084 I'm glad someone noticed. Thanks
I thought that from the beginning. I just want to know if they impacted the compensator nut on and threw the wheels out of true, but there is no getting around the fact the sequence of that washer was wrong. Then slammed together with a 1400 lb Milwaukee impact gun. I also feel with all that metal accumulating and the cam washer and breather spacer/washer missing it was not just boom done it took a few miles for that all to happen. How long after stator job did you ride it before it exploded ?
Well Lee, I can tell you this, you're 10 times the mechanic that I am! LOL! Seriously, that is something I'm really not good at! We all have our gifts, being a mechanic isn't one of mine! Kudos to you brother!
Thanks Todd, I know just enough to get by, but to tell you the truth I hate working on cars/motorcycles LOL I put off tackling jobs like this, then jump in feet first, but I rely heavily on manuals and videos. I just spent about a week every night working on my daughters car...I am sure I wore the new manual out and watched every video ever produced about her car :) Thanks Brother for the encouragement.
Good information about grabbing the clutch
Very informative and you are much cooler than me over such a blown-engine,,, I'll stay with 2T 250cc dirt bikes after seeing that tear-down,, Good luck with your bike!
Thank You..and it took quite a while before I become that "cool" about it LOL I was not a Happy camper at all!!!
Thanks again!!
5 weeks in the shop having work done on it and then locks up at 70 mph......... Nice.
Hi Lee you did a great job on the tear down, I hope you are able to get your ride on the road again soon..... I am totally sure the dealer screwed up big and you paid for it. This video reminds me that I can not really trust the dealers for squat..... jp
Thank You Sir!! I agree, I had worried from day one because the guy working on it did not even look old enough to have a license!!! For now she will have to set for a while...but hopefully not for long!!
Seen too many bad so called dealers. Too many reformed meth heads.
this was awesome, easy to work on when pulled from the bike. 🦁👍👍👍👍👍
Much easier :) Thanks for checking it out!
Great video. I've done rebuilds on my '79 Shovelhead. I don't do much more than change the oil on my '06 Twin Cam. Thanks!
Thank You for viewing and for the nice comment. Take care
Bit late to the party but in my opinion, 'beating flat rate' caused the problem. Your not supposed to use an 'air gun' to remove compensating sprocket nut but it's faster and cheaper than doing it right plus rarely actually does cause a problem. The bolt up cranks can easily get twisted causing pretty bad imbalance which flexes shafts in a different plane. Vibration may have seemed normal but even if you only revved it once to 5K it could be enough to snap pin. (I've done a LOT of HD 3 and 5 piece cranks) Personally I would be interested to see wear pattern on crank pin , main shafts and bearings, it tells you a lot if you know what to look for. Hydro-lock would have caused a totally different type of damage
the" screw" you pulled out at the stater, that was a screw for a cabinet door hinge mount!
That is exactly what it looked like
dano 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 whatta tard
I totaly agree with you there
Self tapping screw, bloody butcher's!
they couldnt get the factory course machine screw in cause they prob destroyed it so they used a self tapping course screw.
That sucks but glad your still above ground. Great tear down and good catch on that other cylinder I thought for shure she was going over. Well hope to see you out there in the wind soon Remember this time warm - ups and Oil changes Ralph.
Thank You!!! The ride video did not fully catch the fishtailing. I thought at one point it was going to turn sideways and flip! I sure hope to get back in the wind soon..we had a bit of medical issue with the Mrs having open heart surgery and the bike came a distant second to taking care of her and the medical bills..so..it had to go. Maybe someday soon I will be able to get another. Sad part about the oil changes..this bike just came from the shop, it was there for 5 weeks altogether. Thanks for watching and the comment. Take care, Lee
ABSOLUTELY RIVETING (n.p.i.) vid to watch, for this soon-to-be Newbie rider, Lee! I've never seen a mc engine torn apart from top down to its bones...and have wanted to for a LONG time! AWESOME "mc engines, 101" educational film, Sir - MANY THANKS! :)
Thank You Sir! LOL I like the pun!
I am so glad that you liked it, I hope that it was helpful. Sadly, I did not find the exact cause of the lock up...but sadly I did learn that any chances of a quick and cheap repair were now out of the question...to much damage.
Thanks for watching and the very kind comment. Take care!
I'd have to ask but if that work involved re-building the top end it's possible that they didn't give enough clearance to piston - cylinder. That scoring looks like the piston seized when hot and then loosened up after the motor cooled down. If it were rod bearings there'd be more metal in the oil and it would be obvious when looking turning over the motor with cylinders removed. You'd hear the metal on metal. Just one persons opinion.
I've been working on H-D's for 33 years professionally in shops. It's a faulty crankpin that broke and took out your engine. That's certainly not the first one I've seen like that. Everyone I've seen breaks through the oil passage, just like yours.
Any specific years of Harley or other brand you recommend?
Austin gets my vote
im not experienced enough with harleys to have seen this scenario but your insight is very enlightening... just one of them things i reckon... could the cause be from an overtightened primary chain? just curious
What junk !! 430.000 miles on my 3 Ducati and no crankshaft drama ! Can't believe people buy this crap !
Arthur McHugh but your ducati is ugly sounds like shit looks like shitand only gay people like yourself ride them
Great video i myself am a backyard mechanic have worked on dozens of bikes i own a 1999 evo and have a 106,000 on her with no problems it doesn't even smoke or k nock yet a little noise comi g out of the rockers but not serious i believe you diagnosed this correctly and to be honest i have never seen a crank pin break they are very tough hope you got your bike back up thanks for sharing
Great Harley engine tear down video. My lowrider S is currently in the shop for a bottom end knocking noise. It has a 110 with approximately 7,000 miles. After confirming there was a knock, Harley approved a tear down. They found the flywheel gear binding. Master tech said if left alone the bearing would have developed flat spot and a chain of events leading to other engine damage. Good luck on your rebuild, I wanted to share this even though it may not be related to your engine locking up. Best regards.
Thanks!! I am so glad you are having it looked at and repaired. The lock up was a ride I would not wish on my worst enemy LOL
Hopefully it will be an easy fix with moderate cost..but either it is good to know you will be safe from what happened to me!!! Thanks for watching and the comment, Take care
Hi Lee. Sorry you had this failure. As a Caterpillar engine mechanic, I've been through failure analysis training. If I were you, I would look closely at the broken ends of the crankpin. I have a feeling that the crankpin fractured first (for some reason) leading to the flywheels no longer being supported. That let them move freely and at angles, cutting into the case. This caused the aluminum shavings and ultimately caused the lockup of the engine when the flywheels jammed against the case halves.
By looking closely at the fracture face of the crankpin, a good failure analysis technician could tell if that breakage was caused by one huge hit, or if it was a crack that grew slowly until it broke (thousands of miles), or a crack that happened rapidly (minutes).
I believe the clues you need are in the crankpin area.....
I agree. The crank pin looks like it was the cause. Incorrect fitting or flexing due to one of the main bearings allowing the crank assembly to flex can cause stress fractures, but as you say close examination of the fracture pattern would give a clue about the time it took to the crack to develop.
CDP, I support your theory, even if ultimately then only to a degree. Reason/s for failure of a crank pin are of course many, but surely stress would be a major consideration. Points put forward by Norman May in his excellent analysis would need to be considered at some length. The nature of Timken style bearings being what it is, the failure of this bearing may well have been the source of considerable flexing being applied to the pin. As we are talking of time frames which can be expressed in second/s rather than longer periods, this flexing may well be one of the reasons of metal fatigue and subsequent failure of the pin.
As considerable aluminum shavings are present throughout the engine, the source of this metal bears some consideration. As the engine would have seized immediately following the failure of the crankshaft assembly, the case damage can be disregarded as the source.
I agree with your belief as the to the primary source being the now missing washers. These shavings would have extremely rapidly been distributed thorough much of the engine, by lubricating oil. This would have led to damage in any highly stressed bearing surface, and in my opinion, could possibly be the cause of failure of the tapered crankshaft supporting bearings.
Hydrolocking in the rear cylinder is not a consideration. This has already been addressed in replies, which supply ample proof of this not being the cause.
Just my thoughts, but backed by some considerable experience in component failure analysis.
My compliments for a well thought out and excellent case study, as well as the high quality and considerable knowledge included in answers and well presented thoughts of several replies.
Greetings from my country of residence, Indonesia.
@@cdp9633 0.
The crank pin could have had hair line cracks from out of balance fly wheels. I haver seen a cracked crank shaft on a ISX Cummins caused by the front motor mount being loose and hitting the front balance pully casing the crank to brake behind the timing gear. Bad workmanship. Crank shaft failures causes are self inflicted most of the time.
@@ollimakkonen6481 "Case study". Very good.
I agree with Norman, I have seen lots of hydro lock ups it bends the rod , because its the easiest thing to bend or break. I spent 34 years at the RR and I was a mechanic on the diesels.
I do too, Norman did a great job explaining the most probable cause. I wished now that I had not jumped so quickly on this idea of a hydro lock
Every one can learn here out of this useful striping video and specially from Normans May analysis
Thank You for the very kind Comment!!
Please note, I Iive in Australia and years ago I had a BMW R80/7 that locked up on me at 60 mph some 950 miles from home, a long story short the BMW mechanic told me that one of the bolts that hold the conrod onto the crankshaft snapped in two!
It happened so quickly and suddenly that I hardly had time to pull the clutch in given that the back wheel completely locked up also,of course BMW tried to blame myself due to lack of engine oil etc, but the bike was serviced by them 2 weeks prior to the engine lock up and BMW did not charge me for any of the repairs
Great video by the way!
Regards
Alan Reilly
Crankshaft end play set too tight, same thing happened to me on my 46 Flathead, doing 55mph and it felt like I was putting the brakes on, pulled the clutch in and pulled over, she was locked up! I tore it down and rebuilt it, I used the original crank shaft spacer to get the end play, started to bolt the cases together and the crank wouldn't move, re-shimed for proper end play. That's is all it was, luckily no internal damage whatsoever.
Good deal on the rebuild!!!! That was a close call. You make some good points, Thanks!!
That Harley shop should give you a new EVO motor, or equivalent, with their sincerest apologies.
I agree, I just wished I could get them to see that LOL. I was really disappointed in the response I had gotten from them when I took it back and told them what had happened. Thanks!!
Good luck buddy.
Thank You!!
The1200sportster.....True, when I brought it back they wanted no part of it!
If I were you I would let everyone know what shop did the work on your motor if only to stop someone else from having your experience. They obviously dont care about you and their shoddy workmanship should be known to everyone around the area.
Well brother this was an excellent video. A lot of good information here on how to tear down this engine. Not knowing a whole lot about motorcycle engines I would tend to agree with you though about the Hydro lock. And if it was me I think I would go with a new engine for sure. Thanks for sharing my friend.
Thanks Brother!! I have had a couple comments suggesting it was a bearing lock up..but as the case was dropped, we may never know..yeah I agree new engine time...time to start saving my pennies LOL Thanks for watching
This appears on my recommendations since weeks. Now that I opened it finally I hope youtube is being satisfied at last and stops recommending it to me.
Thanks for watching....but your beef is with YT not me...but Thanks for watching
No offence meant, Sir. My comment wasn't very thoughtful in this regard. It's just, I don't ride a harley so I have no need for watching harley mechanics. Guess I was just upset about the youtube algorithm as it keeps recommending over and over without noticing that if I didn't watch after two weeks, the content is probably not my cup of coffee. Cheers.
Addendum: I just learned from wikipedia a hydrolock isn't an issue related to harley engines specifically.
None taken. I fully understand your feelings. I am constantly recommended videos and subjects in which I have never shown any interest. I am unsure why, unless it is in hopes that I would watch something outside of my usual interests...but I rarely do watch those that are suggested. I have started mousing over the suggested video and clicking on the three dots that appear ..then the "Not Interested" option. It seems to help for a period and they have totally stop suggesting some topics or creators all together.
As my reply was not thoughtful as well, Thank You for the very kind reply, All the Best, Lee
Thank you, all the best to you too, Simon.
P.S. Didn't give the three dots any attention yet, I sure will try it out.
Every time you produced a paper bag I expected a magic trick.
I've always had European or Japanese bikes. I got the chance to ride an 883 for about 1000 miles around Arizona.
It vibrated so much when you had something in your mirror it looked like you were being chased by a herd of angry cars!
LOL that was funny!!
I had an 883 that I did a top end on and a bigger sprocket...but I know what you mean...my mirrors shook terribly!!!!! I loved the bike but hated that about it!
Thanks for watching!
the 883 came out in 1957 and virtually no upgrades, and LOW POWER.. it's been called a woman's bike. vibration, the hummingbird.
I ride a gold wing, and always wondered why harley riders wouldn't speak to me on the road. I rode my friends bike, and discovered how bad they vibrate. I guessed harley riders were too scared to take their hands off the bars.
Some HD riders sometimes do not even acknowledge other HD riders.. I have had NON HD riders not acknowledge me....I guess there are Jerks on all brands of bikes...I just laugh to myself at this self important wannabes and get back to enjoying the ride!
Could be crank pin failure. Every rebuild I did, I would test the crank pins on a Rockwell Hardness tester. Its been awhile but I believe the crankpin would fall between 58-62 on the tester. New parts do fail. Would also die check the con rods for issues. I did see camshafts snap in half. Also, how was the endplay on the sprocket shaft or the conditions of the timekins? All in all, if it was a bearing failure I believe the motor would have just slowed down to a seize and I agreed with Scooter Tramp, it wasn't hydro-lock. I'm going with crankpin failure....
I have to admit, I am a total novice tearing into this...I jumped at the hydrolock idea when suggested to me...I now lean also to the crankpin failure as the cause. Thanks for watching!
I always wanted a Harley growing up...... Then, grown up I found out how chinchy they are with quality, warranty sent worth the paper it's written on, and how major pieces that vibrate badly are just pressed together (and when they come apart, aren't covered under warranty)!!! That scared me away from them.
I believe you owe it to all the ones who viewed the video to put it out there who did the work! Otherwise, they're still doing it to the next, and the next, and the next,...........all with YOUR BLESSIBG !!! Think about it!
At this point it would not help much...and what I can tell you are there are those that love that dealership...and those that hate it.....and neither side will be convinced otherwise.
Awesome video. Thank you!!!
Thank You and Thanks for watching!!
give tatro machine a call, keenan may be able to shed some light on it and if you were looking to rebuild it im pretty sure he can do it and make it 10times better/ more reliable than stock
I have gave them a glance on the net. I will keep them in mind for sure. I have seen nothing but praise for their work! Thank You.
ruclips.net/video/_IYN-KuZUQM/видео.html
You can't control what comes into your shop but you have total control of what goes out of it. Look for a shop that cares that only the best goes out the door. And avoid a shop that sounds like dragon something. Everything they did for me I had to have re-done. Best to find someone local found from references. Integrity trumps school diplomas every time. Good luck
@@davidervin7345 A shame. Dragon man, if that's who you mean, has been in the HD rebuild & hop up market for a long time. I know it's a little late to ask but, can you tell us about your issue with them?
@@porkchopspapi5757 My 72xlch had an issue with slipped flywheels...a LOT! The pinion was running about .120 eccentric. This was the second time for this motor and I'm not a hard rider. There were other things I wanted, cyl's honed/ pistons (cyl's were scuffed). I had him shave the flywheels & rebalance it. I mailed it all off after a ph call. I got it all back and the cyl's were honed, not bored, but scuff marks still showed. To be fair I reassembled it and several thousand miles later the cyl's show no sign of using oil. The flywheels were a different matter. The pinion still ran .035 eccentric. I found a local genus at the Columbus, Ne dealer that's been at it since the 70's; he fixed the lower end & trany, it's perfect. As for balancing, done by DragonMan, it runs pretty smooth up to about 3000 but it's an Ironhead and that's not too bad. The question isn't vibration it's where do you want your vibrations and the shaved flywheels were a bad idea, MY bad idea. So, my feelings are mixed. So my original post was a little too harsh. But the pinion runout is VERY important.
When I bought the bike, in San Antonio in 75, the flywheels were out but i didn't know. A thousand miles later, in the middle of the night in the middle of Ark the rod bearings disintegrated because a mechanic had peened the pinion bushing seat in the cam cover to put back a bushing seat wallered out from an eccentric pinion shaft and all my oil was running into the cam case instead of into the flywheel. It's a GREAT! bike now, my most reliable vehicle, it ALWAYS runs and starts on the third kick, except when someone is watching.
I read a lot about unreliable Harleys and realize that anyone with a 150 dollar harbor freight tool set can dismantle an old Harley but if you don't have 30K dollars worth of special tools you will NEVER get one back together properly. The special hones, reams, line bores, truing stands etc don't come cheap. Then there are the charlatans that would really peen a bearing seat or a bushing seat like the jerk in SA,Tx that did mine.
You stated the shop improperly installed bent screw behind the stator. I would like to know what shop!
He also said that he just replaced the stator before the engine blew up... Why didn't he replace the screw then?
@@jeffvanark He said the Dealer did it. I'll bet something they did also caused the engine failure.
The shop
did the work
Flying Dog Explanation please for your comment.
Very nice teardown video. Looks like it's engine time.
I think you are right my Friend, not what I really what I want to buy at the time..but I think it is my best option. Thanks for watching!
Very cool 97k views by 11.26.2017. Great work Lee.
Thanks Brother, I am totally blown away by this...not what I expected at all!
I don't agree with the hydrolock theory. Hydrolock with oil does not happen when an engine is running. Hydrolock due to oil leaks from overhead would have occured after the engine stopped and would not have allowed it to even start the next time. There is simply not enough time for that much oil to get into the cylinder at the RPM it would have been turning at 70 mph. That much oil getting into either cylinder would have also caused a running engine to emit a smoke screen of epic proportions.
I completely agree. Sadly when I did this video, I did not delve enough into other causes...and admittedly I did not know enough at that time to look for those other issues. I was hoping viewers would see something I missed. I have had a couple of really great comments pointing out two missing/destroyed washers that may have been the issue.
I was suggested the hydrolock as a cause and accepted it to quickly with out researching it.
I have learned so much from great comments like this. Thank You
Lee Ralph I am a professional motorcycle and auto mechanic with almost 50 years under my belt. I am not a Harley man or an expert at all, but when that front head came off, I knew the crank was toast. That piston had been hitting the head, and had polished a spot on the piston to match the quench area of the head. I would speculate that someone made an error when they assembled the engine. Those type of crankshaft breaks usually occur due to severe dynamic engine imbalance or misaligned component parts. A pressed crank is much more susceptible to those issues. Many older Japanese two strokes use a similar design and racers had to actually weld the cranks together to stop them from twisting under extreme torque loads. Also, if the two flywheels were not in perfect alignment, it could also cause this.
Michael, I had a couple others mention the piston hitting the head. I did not know to look for that, Good catch, Thanks!!
I need to find out just how deep they went into the engine while they had it. Thanks Again!!
You are spot on my friend. The only hydro lock I have experienced in 30 years of monkeying is lawn mowers being stored on their noses or replacing a plug in a valley full of oil.
@@LeeRalph100 If there had been an hydraulic lock or the piston contacting the head either one or both of your pushrods on that cylinder would be bent. I would also think that crank bearing would be chunks in the bottom of the case before that crank would breaks like it did. I suspect a cracked crank journal. I would be interested in knowing if the crankpin journal had been ground for an undersize bearing (if they make them at all). My experience is with radial aircraft engines. With as little metal found and the ease you had taking it apart this all happened in a matter of seconds.
Not personally taking the engine apart leaves a lot of room for speculation, but I believe the crankshaft broke causing the lockup. The crank pin appears to be broken at an angle. Thus the pin would put pressure on the flyweights forcing them away from each other. This would cause; 1) the flyweights to be pushed into the inside of the crankcase wedging the halves inside the cases and ultimately locking up. 2) the broken crank pin would cause the alternator rotor to be thrown out of alignment allowing the rotor to run against the head of the damaged screw (no fault of the shop that installed the stator). My conclusion is: the crank failed due to metal fatigue caused by vibration and/or imbalance. The crank failure would be the source of the metal filings. Although the engine 'locked up', it was not immediate and the crankshaft rotated many times before coming to a stop. I propose that if the engine had been turned opposite it's normal direction of rotation, the engine may have been 'unlocked' and the broken crankshaft may have been obvious without complete disassembly. Glaring mistake made during disassembly; the pinion gear, oil pump drive gear and associated parts should have been removed from the right end of the crankshaft before attempting to remove the right crankcase. I agree with Fred, the case was broken when the shop pressed on the crank. I am a mechanic with over 40 years of experience.
I think you are right in your speculation. GREAT comment, Thank You!!!!!
Dang good video. Thanks for showing it.
Thank You and Thanks for checking it out!
Great video ! Congrats!
Thank You Sir!!!
I have not had a lock up. But, I've had a "back tire (luckily)" deflate (punctured), and going high speed down the highway, and having horsetail wagging and the inner tube is coming out and attempting to grab inside the chain, and rip the tire off the rim. Then getting off the highway to the (luckily) nearest motorcycle shop, and have a new tire installed. That was scary enough.
WOW Brother that would be one scary ride for sure!!! So many things could have went terrible wrong in that situation. Glad you made it out of that ok!!!
Take Care and Thanks for checking the tear down out
John Lord I had the same thing happen to my GS550, before I graduated to a Harley.
Actually moving up to a Harley tripled, if not quadrupled my riding time, as rice-rockets are not designed to be safe to ride in: the rain, the wind, the snow, hail, or any of the other extremes of northern North American Weather. They are however designed for effeminate little girlie boys, which makes them hell to ride more than 50 Km. it you are over 5'8". I will assume that by "poser" you are recognizing the fact that, ALL, the really hot women want you to pose for a picture with them on the back of your Harley.
Jeez, its like watching someone dissect an engine from WW1. Oh yeah, that's just what it is!
You stole my thunder!! lol, bravo
Sell an expensive bike with an engine built with tooling that's been paid off since Nixon was in office = WIN!
@Theodore Marakas The Harley engine bears an uncanny resemblance to a radial airplane engine, at least in the cylinder head area. Maybe that's the problem, you can't take a radial engine and turn it into a V-twin without it being a paint-shaker POS.
Used to have a couple Norton Atlas' ... I sure do miss them bikes
@@brianleeper5737 after reading all of the comments i have decided to just keep my old 2001 Fuji touring bicycle,, aprox 100K on it and no failures 🚲...
I liked the video; enjoyed it. Liked and subbed, great content !
Thanks Eskimo, sorry for the long time to reply...lots of life events!! I am glad you enjoyed it, Sadly I do not do many videos like this, my main channel is about the outdoors, hiking, camping, etc....If you are still subbed, Thank You, If not I do understand!
Take care, Lee
great video,looks like you know a bit of engines
i just take them slowly apart and put every piece and place it on the table
and when i put it back together i go in the reverse direction ,I'm not a mechanic either but this method seems to work for me
when i see something that's broken i replace it
great tutorial Lee
I know just enough to get my self in trouble :)
I think I follow the same method as well. I read and re read the manual...then search the internet..then watch videos..then read the manual again...LOL
Thanks for the kind comment Steve!
hahahah same here lol
You've already got the suspected failure from Norman May, so I wont get into that, except to say what little metal shavings that are there, isn't enough to equal the bearing material and the missing washers (that all looks like bearing material). Did they happen to disassemble that side of the case when they did your motor work? I betting they left them out!
As for your dilemma, the first question is, do you want to keep the bike or sell it?
If selling it, you could get a used motor (that is a runner) and slide it in to get the bike sold.
If you plan on keeping the bike, and you've already admitted you're not really a mechanic, do you seriously want the headache of a rebuild?
If yes, then good luck, or at least have somebody knowledgeable help you do it.
If not, then bite the bullet and get you an S&S for two reasons, S&S don't build junk, it'll be a righteous build with a spec sheet from it's testing and it'll come with a warranty (you certainly wont have either of those when you rebuild it yourself).
Besides, an S&S on that year of bike would give it a bit more value, than the stock motor would, if you did eventually sell it. Though, I would suggest riding it like you stole it for a bit (it's an S&S, it can take it), to get some of your value out of it first before you sell it.
Oh, and one other thing (as if this even needs mentioning), don't take anymore bikes to the chucklefucks that did that to your motor. Find somebody else that will appreciate your business and treat you righteous, there is just no excuse what so ever for shitty workmanship like that!
The had the primary off, rotor compensator...basically everything on primary side, the where into gear case side ...as far as I know that is it. I am wondering if the one washer in the gear case was accidentally left off.
You summed up my situation perfectly!!!! The S&S is the option I have decided to go with...now to get my finances to agree as well. Time to start saving up I guess LOL
I promise...this is the last time I ever take a bike there again!!! Thanks for the great comment and a sound look at my options.
I disagree with the S&S. They gave me the run around for almost a year on two bad motors. One right after the other. I think they build junk motors. They will finally stand behind their warranty. Well they will sooner or later. My first motor they wanted the shop to take it apart and rebuild it. I said no. I didn't spend 10k for a rebuilt motor. So almost 6 months later a new motor showed up. I won't even start on what was wrong with the second motor. JUNK.
Never buy from S&S....
I don't think a Hydrolock was the culprit. You would have seen nothing but oil smoke for some time before locking up.
Looking at the casings there appears to be a half circle indent on the thrust face of one casing possibly caused by a loose washer lodging there and jamming.
There is also damage to the thrust face which would explain the shavings found throughout the bottom end.
My theory is the "missing" washer highlighted earlier found its way to the back of the motor and seized the engine up.
The bent screw could have been caused by the ensuing mayhem post lockup, as with the cracked casing.
Incorrect assembly at The Harley Shop is my call on what caused the failure.
Cheers Ric
Well explained!!! I now dismiss the hydrolock idea.
Many have pointed out the symptoms of what happened...but you have now added a "how it happened" I believe you are right as to the missing washer. Thank You
Norman is on top of it... without doubt. May I add info that may be of interest to all of us that pay top dollar for these machines? This "timed breather" that Norman speaks of,, is a cylinder with ports cut in it. It rotates inside of a fixed pipe with ports to match. The breather is made of PLASTIC !!! In my '97 soft tail and others I imagine. A plastic gear tooth broke away and found its way to the oil pump... the pump drive sheared as a result ! I caught the oil pressure light in time to save major damage. I raised some dust in the Longview, Tx. Harley shop when to my amazement... the replacement part was also PLASTIC !
Norman rocked with his detailed explanation! Yes mine was plastic as well. I am glad you caught the issue!! It is surprising that they would allow such a part to be made of plastic, considering the damage it could cause i it did break! I am glad they got it fixed though for you...I wished I had know more when I took the bike back...There would have been some dust raised a bit North of you as well LOL
Paradisemace1 There is a new unit available from and aftermarket supplier that is not geared nor timed. The unit is made of metal and it uses a system of reed valves to relieve crankcase pressure.
Hi just watched your vlog, really good tear down. Just bought my Fatboy Lo Special (Ist HD) new for my 60th birthday , I would never have been able to do that job --- even with the factory manual. Sadly for you the dealership treated you badly, you would think HD would sort these robbers out, bit here in Wales there are stories like yours. Good luck with your new engine & many thanks for such a good vlog 🖒😎
(sorry if this is a duplicate, I have been having issues with replies from my phone) Thank You Sir. Congrats on the new Bike!!!! I was really intimidated to start this tear down. Luckily I had found some pretty decent and helpful videos, read and re read the manual and had people like my Dad to call upon for advice. This is a dealership that is 3 generations old..they are a pretty good place to get a bike, they are great on putting "upgrades" on new bikes...but the service end is some what lacking. They have some decent mechanics..and a lot of guys that I really question their knowledge. My Ex Brother in Law used to work there..he was one of their better mechanics. He left because he refused to take short cuts and rush through jobs.
Thanks Again, Take care!
Not a hydro lock, the oil would just get pushed out the exhaust causing it to smoke and pour oil out of the pipe. Also if it was leaking in that much it probably would have fouled the plug and it would have been down on one cylinder. Problem seems to be some where else. Great tear down job.
Thanks..Yeah, I jumped to quickly at the hydrolock theory when it was suggested to me. I sure wished I could go back and make a correction to that part!!
Many have suggested a loose part (washer maybe) left in the gear case or a missing washer causing free play. Thanks for the comment
J B weld it, and put back together! thats probably how the shop would've done it and charged you for it!
LOL...You are probably right...Hey After I JB Weld it all back together I will give you the honor of the first ride LOL
Good Luck, great video.
Thank You Sir!
Thanks for sharing , hope things worked out for you .it's a shame , crooked people in the motorcycle industry. The mechanic , doing crooked work , and now the engine lockup , you should expose the shop that did it . Thank for the heads up on using the clutch , in a lockup
It may not be crooked mechanics. The two dealers near me use "factory trained" and charge 100$/hr. They have little experience. The odd screw in the stator may not be the cause but any mechanic that would do that would also do worse. They don't give out diplomas for integrity but that is the quality you are most in need of.
The Caterpillar Mechanic may have nailed or closely nailed the failure. However, My thoughts. If it had been a hydro lock, the connecting rod, wrist pin, and piston pin bore are significantly weaker than the Crank and would have shown some kind of pressure damage. Not limited to but including piston pin bending. That being said, with metal shavings in the engine tell much. The crank was not mounted securely and it was allowed to flex causing metal shaving. Over time, that movement would have been amplified on the large end of the rod, and a micro fracture would result that eventually would give. From the pictures, the metal fragments throughout the engine, indicate this was not a quick catastrophic failure like a hydro lock, but a slower process allowing for all the metal shavings. Without physically inspecting, this is just a guess. One more thought. The Large rod end on the crank is significantly stronger than the hollow piston pin. The Large end has enough strength to easily shear the small end piston pin and not even see damage to Crank journal. If the crank was securely mounted, everything perfect, no metal fragments, I would guess in a hydro lock up, the Piston pin would shear, the pushrod would punch through the piston crown.
Lee Ralph, I'm not a Harley guy, but I am an aircraft engineer and a biker who works on my own engines.
I have several observations:
The Harley shop let you down badly.
There seems to be no reason for the bent stator screw other than bad workmanship. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and that seizure could have in any way contributed.
The missing washer appears to be further evidence of same.
What you describe as "shavings" really need to be analysed. If they were machining swarf, then that's serious negligence on someone's part.
If they could be the remains of the washer, that needs to be established. It too is serious negligence on someone's part. We can all forget washers, drop parts, and stop/restart jobs and forget where we were up to, but due diligence is called for.
You possibly have a case against the Harley shop, but your evidence gathering and recording is sadly rather too sketchy to constitute actual proof or stand up as evidence. Probably wouldn't hold up in court.
Any lawyer is going to tell you you should have got the investigative work done by a trained mechanic - probably having given the original Harley shop fuck-ups the opportunity to correct their bad work. Water under bridge.
You were also heavily let down by whoever did the pressing work. If you drop a customer's parts and damage them beyond repair you're liable. Period.
My final conclusion is a two part one that firstly notes the highly inappropriate and ultimately comically ironic use of 'Evolution' as the name for this agricultural piece of ironmongery.
The second part is to point out that it's clearly not a very good design. The amount of torque inside that motor is capable of shearing a 1" plus diameter shaft, but they didn't mitigate against poor workmanship, or whatever the apparently reasonably simple cause was. We know it wasn't visible catastrophic failure of a part.
Engine design all over the world (except the USA it seems) has gone through genuine evolution during the years since this design was new.
Having said that, I prefer flatheads/panheads/side valves to those things, and still think Harley engines sound better than any of their imitators. But they're unreliable tractors that I really wouldn't want to ride any distance. And to me, that's what bikes should be capable of doing, not just posing and brooding at the lights in leather vests, cut-offs and doggy bowls.
I guess the final lesson is that you can't trust anyone these days, and that's sad. If I make a mistake, I call myself the appropriate name and admit my error. Long list available to anyone genuinely interested ;)
Great comment and a lot to think about..I agree I should have had the work done by someone else. I guess at this point I had thrown my hands up and just wanted to know if it was feasible to do a repair on it...biting the bullet and just doing it. I thought I would never be able to prove that this was the Shops fault. But as I had more knowledgeable eyes watching and pointing out things that I was to untrained to know, I realized that there were several issue that the shop did that I could probably have called them on, if the tear down had been done by a certified shop...
The pressing was done by a friend doing me a favor..it was just one of those unfortunate things that happen. You make some great points in your final conclusion.. I wonder if secretly HD knows if they change their design..they will also lose that rumble and feel that only a Harley offers?? The mystic of a Harley.
I agree on a bike should be able to go the distance..I have a freind who oes not ride his bike past city limits..because of break down fears. It is a nice looking bike..but worthless in my eyes.
Great Comment...Thank You!!
You're most welcome Lee Ralph. I'm a Honda guy, and I also have a pair of Bultaco twinshock trials bikes, all of which I'm supposed to be restoring here in the UK. In theory we are worlds apart - literally, but in reality we are both bikers. We need to look out for each other. We can all learn from others experiences - both good and bad. It's a journey. Ride safe bro.
If that was an aircraft engine failure the FAA would be all over it.
nice to see quality tools
WELL..quality tools is not exactly how I would describe my tools LOL Thanks for watching!
Those engines look like jewels.
LOL...sadly broken jewels right now
But I'm sure you'll be getting it all together soon Lee :-)
I sure hope so my Friend, Thanks!
my evo did the same thing we found out the oil pump went out it was cheaper to buy a s+s motor than a rebuild im much happier with the s+s
WOW...I hope it was not a ride like I had!!! Did you have any indication at all that it was going to lock up when it did? I hope was not a serious lockup ...well to the bike it was...but I meant to yourself
Which S&S did you go with?
This was the type of reply and info I was looking for. Thank You!!!!
Which motor did you buy. I've had nothing but trouble with S&S & their 124. Just JUNK..
I think it would be helpful if you mentioned exactly what work they did on it on the shop. You just said "some work" which doesn't give any clue to whether that could have anything to do with the lock up at all. In the video you mention that they replace the stator. That should normally not cause anything like this unless they used force or violence on the shaft like hammer on it.
One hypothesis could simply be that the lower crank pin just broke from fatigue and that's the reason for locking up. I can't see anything in there that would make things come to a halt fast enough to crack the crank pin. It would require a hydrolock or a severe mechanical like a cracked piston or broken connecting rod. A seized roller bearing like on the crank will likely never cause a dead stop that would crack the pin.
My guess is that the missing washer which is grinded to metal debris is a misleading clue. I think there is a good chance that the crank, which is pretty delicate compared to other big V-twins broke from fatigue causing the lock up, and of course the cracked crank case as a result. I have seen too many clues leading the assumptions in my days to run after them, so I just boil it down to a locked up motor. The reason for it to be locked is that the crank big end pin is broken. All visual damage to the case is the result of that and there are no obvious reasons for the motor to have locked up causing the cracked big end pin so I can just state that it did happen.
When you split the cases, did they just fall apart? I am curious as I have never opened up a Harley motor, and am in the process of disassembling a 96 Evo that was in a garage fire....with the intent of reusing what appear to be good cases.
Sorry for the late response. The cases came apart fairly easily. How did you come out with your rebuild?
been riding for 54 years and never had any trouble with my Honda's - still have my childhood CB160 and my 1972 CB750 i bought back from japan while in the USMC - they still run like new with no problems = Harley guys never wave at me LOL
All good Bikes!! I have had my share of Hondas...Check out my Honda CB%%) Chopper build!
As to those not waving, There are Jerks in every hobby and walk in life...If you were on two wheels.... I waved!
SEMPER FI!!
Lee the rest of the bike looks great . A new S&S would be a good choice , in dependability and time. Look forward to seeing where it ends up. Yes it's a lot of cash . Liked the teardown and I wished I knew more. Cheers buddy.
Thanks Steve. I think you are right, I have been weighing cost versus longevity and dependability and think a new S7S is the way to go...I just have to decide how much I want to dump into when choosing the correct motor.
Thanks for sopping by, I hope you are having a great weekend, Cheers!
In my humble opinion. S&S is never a good choice. I've had the run around from S&S for over a year. Then they wanted to rebuild a junk motor they sold me. They wanted my shop to rebuild it not send it back & they rebuild it. I told them to send me a brand new motor this took over 6 months to get them to send me one.
JUNK and not very good customer service.
S&S is not a good idea unless you want to work on it all the time and just play around here and there u no bar hopping stuff not road trips or enjoying the road
I'll tell you what, your crack case is caused when the big End Rod let go it's swung down and hit the counter weight which forced the other half of the crank to push out and cracking your case. you can see the mark on the other half where the pin hit . All the hydro locks that I've ever seen always had a bent rod or piston damage. which I never saw your piston but the rod looked okay. It could just be that the big end pin shared from being out of alignment. In other words the two halves of the crank are no longer clocked the same. That's what I think happened. I seen it a couple of times when something happened to the bike which jolted the motor. Since the big end pen are pressed into the crank, they will twist out of alignment and eventually something breaks.
Good Eye Kevin, I will go look at those parts today and look for those marks. That makes a lot of sense. Thank You. The bike had been at the dealership for several weeks, started out because of a hammering starter , and new starter install, it was hammering as well, so they kept it and do more work on it ..I am not sure what sort jolt it may have had, unless it was during the work to stop the hammering. Thanks for the reply
I'm a 40 year race technician and I agree with your opinion 100%
correctomundo !!!!
im not a motorcycle Mechanic ..but i do work on small engines for a living ..Let me just say everything has a reason for being in the motor .so ill have to agree with Norman on this one . when dude said missing spacer one that one shaft .it immediately perked my ears .
I agree, I had seen in the manual where it showed to..but sadly It did not hit home with me at the time..that is bad on my part. I am so glad Norman caught it and pointed it out!!
Don't sell yourself short. Anyone who can tear a Harley engine down with the understanding you did is a mechanic. Either you have it or you don't, you have it. As for trained mechanic, what is training? Training is experience and you got schooled by Norman so now you are trained :) Good luck with the rebuild.
Sir I do not now how to answer , but to say Thank You! Take Care!
Not possible for a hydro-lock, unless the valves both stick shut. In that case, there is no way for the oil to enter. I am guessing someone tried to free the motor by adding the oil through the spark plug hole, or the motor was left in a position for the oil to migrate into the cylinder.
I'm thinking something happened to the left side crankshaft where the stator lives. If something hits that shaft dead on the end, it could have enough leverage the tweak the flywheels out of true. In that case, normal use would eventually destroy the crank pin. It's a surprisingly weak setup to start with, and if you add a bonehead tech into the equation, you can have a catastrophic outcome. That's one reason you never use any kind of puller on the stator that relies on the crank for a fulcrum. Yea, I know. The genius mechanic your friend knows said it's fine to use a puller, but then again, it's not his motor.
You might inquire about the shop practice for removing and re-installing the huge nut on the end of the shaft that holds the compensator and rotor in place. If they use an air tool it can do damage if the air pressure is set too high. And BTW, the damage to the alternator wire cleat and screws was done when the crank broke and let the rotor spin out of true. That wasn't done by a boneheaded tech.
Lifetime rider and bike mechanic here. Went to Harley school all over the country and have all the badges and class pictures to prove it. Worked at Collier HD in Roanoke Rapids NC for over 12 years officially. Several more unofficially. You get the drift. I'm not just a shade tree blockhead throwing darts. I probably could pinpoint the problem right off if I was doing this hands on. Like this it's a tough call.
Good luck pard.
I have dropped the thought of it being hydrolock. I did tip the motor when trying to move it..and I am not sure but my son did mention the idea of ol in the spark plug hole to try and loosen it up. I said not to do that...but he ay have tried on his own..I need to ask him about that.
You have a great point about the the left side of the crank and the way in which they removed the compensator nut...this was an area they were working in..and replaced stator, among other things
Thank You Sir for the very helpful comment!
with that much oil in the cylinder you would have had one heck of a cloud behind you. id bet the shop used a impact on the stater. if the bearings locked you would think they would have spun for at least a second. doesn't look like a rotary break on the crank pin. you might want to presume them damaging your bike if you haven't.
For those more experienced than I am, it almost looked to me like the main seal wasn’t installed correctly. I don’t see any spring on the seal showing that if this was chain drive, it would allow oil from the engine into the primary, drying the engine out and filling the primary. If you run chain drive, aren’t you supposed to install the main seal with the spring outward toward the primary, and facing in if you’re running a belt drive/dry clutch?
I also agree the hydro lock theory would have caused noticeable decrease in power with the eventual destruction of the rod. The failure of the main bearing is a much more likely candidate. I've never worked on a Harley before so I found this a very interesting video, i'm a Triumph fanatic. It's always a bad feeling when you're looking when you're looking at broken cases, good luck with getting it back up together.
I have changed my thoughts on the Hydrolock theory...I no longer think that was the cause...I agree that the main bearing was the cause of the lock up...some have pointed out that a bearing was missing..possible left loose in the gear case, then shredding casuing the bearing issues you spoke of. Triumph is a great bike...I used to own 2 old Norton's when I first got married...they had to go...I sure do miss those bikes!! Thank You and Thanks for the commnet
I wonder if this type engine could be used on a home built aircraft
I wondered that as well after your comment and saw where some had used HD motors for that purpose. GREAT question!! Thanks for watching and for the comment
No, don't do it. I've been around Harley engines my entire life. I've been around aircraft my entire life. I've worked in the aviation industry my entire life. I'm an aircraft owner. My butt has over 500,000 mile on my scooters. I've worked on all of my Harley's. The reliability of EVERY generation of Harley motors are notoriously BAD. They crack, detonate (explode), seize, come apart, lose parts, and constantly fail. Trust your life, will you?
@@JonHeckendorf Thanks for the reply Jon. I saw the design and it just looked kind of like an airplane engine. Or part of one. I guess if it was safe to do an aircraft mechanic would have used one by now. Stay safe in your travels.
Crap! Glad you survived. Time to sue that shop!!
Thank You...It was a ride I never want again!!! I wish I could prove it was their fault, but unitl then I am just stuck with fixing the bike myself...and just Thankful it did not turn out worse
@@LeeRalph100 wait till you put that S&S in it. Let us know how that's going a few thousand miles down the road. I'm pretty sure you'll have trouble with them also. S&S sells JUNK motors with poor customer service. I hope yours turns out ok.
@103 CiHD that's good. I've been dealing with this motor and its problems for a long time. It took over 6 months for them to replace my first 124. They refused to pay the shop any time to clean all the silver out of ever nook and cranny that shit stuck everywhere. Did they care. F... no they didn't. Then they wanted to rebuild my first motor. I said no to that. Then i just got the run around for over 6 months. They even wanted a core charge until we sent the 9POS motor back. This goes on and on.
@Jeffrey Simmons do you think only the people who have had good experiences with S&S should comment?
It's a free world sir. That's what makes u-tube so great. I have moved on. I just want people to know that not ever motor is a good motor.
I got 2 in a row. That makes me very suspicious of S&S.
Plus I got terrible customer service......
@Jeffrey Simmons if you don't like what I have to say... Don't read it! That's pretty plain isn't it? 😋
Great video and awesome comment section. will watch and read again. I am going to be tearing my bike down and re-doing it. It's time. She needs a few things.
Thanks for the view and the comment. I have learned so much from those willing to share their knowledge in the comments section. Good Luck on the tear down and rebuild!
Good video! Good thing you were not seriously hurt.
Thank You... I tell you it was one scary ride for sure..took sometime before I quit shaking!!!!! Thanks Again!!
The Evo is not a “true” dry sump there’s always going to be 3/4 of a quart of oil or so on the bottom. So it’s not a fluid void nor fluid pressure loss. There’s a bigger piece/chunk of metal somewhere (not shown) & probably wedge shaped...somehow got stuck between one of those flywheels & the case...The shavings alone are just not enough to do it. Once the crankpin broke all bets were off & those flywheels smashed into the case and ruined the bottom-end entirely...
Great Reply!! Thank You!
The Harley shop did a bad job. Good tear down.
Thanks Nathan, I even took it back to them, they said it wasn't there fault...and there must have been something wrong in the motor..I asked why did the not hear it after having it for so long. They said "well you have loud pipes"...LOL I guess mine is the first bike they ever worked on with loud pipes :)
Hi Nathan you are right on.... I am sure the Harley shop left something out or did something wrong when the engine was apart.... This big engine just did not decide to eat itself for breakfast..... jp
Lee Ralph if they were concerned stuff rags in the loud pipes to hear the engine run . got over 195.000 miles on my ducati and don't understand having a failure of this kind .
I agree James!! But they take no ownership of it. The bike was running great..if you watch the video of when it locked..A friend of mine was riding behind me and saw no tell tale signs anything was about to happen...in fact it caught him of guard and we about collided!
Art, It truly was something I did not expect!!! Funny part about this story and the loud pipes, when I told my Dad the story (he has ridden since the mid 1950's) he told me that the LAST time he was at that dealership the current owners Grandfather owned it...when my Dad pointed out something they missed while working on his bike, they told him "Sorry did not hear it over the loud pipes" in fact that owner did not want bikes that had been "upgraded" in his shop LOL
Great video
Thank You!!
The difficulty from this point on is the possibility of micro fractures in the various castings and forgings. Of course, the hardware items were subjected to a severe shock, and the resultant wear on the threaded component surfaces may add to the deformation of the engine as a whole entity. With this being said, the decision to replace the motor entirely is wise.
My thoughts is, during the shop doing the repairs may have hit the crank in a effort to remove the flywheel. All it takes is a hair line fracture.
Good Point, they were not inside that part of the motor, but were in the gear case and in the primary, and had the head off. I am wondering if they used an impact on the compenstor nut..or forgot a washer or spacer causing vibration or movement allowing something else to shred clogging the oil pump or bearings? Thanks for the comment!!
That bent and stripped bolt you pulled out of stator is surely a telltale sign of the tech that did the work, that sure was unacceptable to leave that in there like that.
Impossible enough oil to get into the cylinder between cycles for a hydrolock to happen at 70 mph
It would throw any oil out at that speed.
Nicholas Pratt True. I corrected my thoughts on that in the description. Thanks for the comment
Thank you for the video
Thank You!! Thanks for checking it out and I hope it was off some help. Take Care
Sounds like a good weekend.
+RANDOUGH SURVIVOR it was thanks
I'm used to engines lasting almost forever with proper maintenance.
Funny, there are millions of HD engines with well over 100,000 miles on them still running great.
@@vector6977 Millions?
@@roadrunner40 yes, dumbass,
Millions.
Well said, as I mentioned in another comment..there is a balance on all machinery between proper maintenance/repairs balanced with proper use by the operator.... If in balance any piece of machinery can last quite sometime..throw that balance off and.................
Cant go wrong with an S&S.
I agree!
Excellent video and responses only on YT😊
Thank You!
Great video. I am the only person who has wrenched on my 05 Sporty since I bought it new. At 80K it has only needed a CKP. It has been a very reliable bike. Any other work has been modifications. I hate to have anyone work on my machinery. I may be slower but I get it right. The factory manual is your friend :)
Good luck with whatever motor choice you make to get your bike back on the road.
When I get the new engine in bike I will be the only one touching it..This has been a learning lesson for sure!!
Thank You for the kind comment and I wish you many many safe miles!!
Norman