Got to say, you haven’t been doing this for long, but you’ve surely have got honed to a high level. It’s clear and concise. You come across in a relaxed manner, like you’re talking to a buddy there in the shop one on one. The thought structuring of points to consider evaluating a tool is great. 👍x10 Overall great job, thanks & keep it up.
As a Canadian living near Ottawa, I have a natural preference for Veritas as a brand. I'm happy to see that their router plane wins out in most areas as well. When I buy one, I'll buy local. Thanks for the very informative review!
I have to reiterate what other commenters are saying about this channel. You do an excellent presentation, very logical and well presented. Looks like this channel is growing by leaps and bounds. Thank you so much for this channel. Keep up the great work!
I just received the Katz-Moses KM-17 Pro model which adds a really cool depth stop and a blade sharpening jig handle that doubles as a marking knife with the pointed iron so now it’s like getting two tools in one. I also purchased a set of additional cutter width irons. The tool as sent is remarkable and very well made. It will perform to all of my needs with great satisfaction. I feel that between all of the top brands the KM 17 Pro is right up there with the best of them until you want the adapters to cut inlays which is only available with the Veritas. If you don’t need that you can save a considerable amount. The KM-17 Pro base is made from steel and not cast iron like the others. It has a great weight and feel to it and the machining on mine was perfect. I’m just putting it to some light usage right now but feel like this is going to work out great for the long term. All of my previous purchases of other Hongdui tools have been good buys.
I own the KM-17 and you very much CAN change the blade orientation 180°. You flip the complete mechanism with 2 bolts. Oh and I don't know about your version but on mine there is a very good depth stop.
I love watching your videos. It’s always nice to have someone testing and comparing products to give us (consumers) a better idea of which ones to buy for our specific needs. I know you did the lie Nielsen vs veritas chisels. Would like to see that one again with the IBC and Blue Spruce dovetail chisels added in. Also dovetail saw showdown between Cosman saw, Veritas, Bad Axe and Skelton Saw
Thank you!!! And trust me I would LOVE to review those, all of those but they are outta my $$ reach atm. I can try to see if someone has any I can borrow but idk if they will let me after watching me bash the LN and Veritas chisels hahahah
The Katz Moses is reversible, but it involves removing and flipping the whole adjustment mechanism rather than just the iron. I believe there has also been a statement made that additional irons are coming.
I have a Veritas with the side screw depth stop. As Dagomirdichev suggests below, the side screw has the potential to damage the threads on the post, especially because it needs to be cranked pretty tight to resist the downward pressure of that big height adjuster wheel. However, I find that I don't bother to use it most of the time anyways. Something you didn't discuss is the sharpening system, with the two-part blades and the jig handle, which isn't unique to the Veritas, but is, imo, a big advantage over the Stanley & Lie Neilson one-piece irons. In any event, one of your best videos yet. Congratulations on the ever-improving channel. We love you right back.
Ah crap ur right! I didn't mention the jig at all and that makes a mig diff in sharpening the blade tips. Good catch!!! Thank you! Not gonna lie this one was a challenge I recorded a while video watched it and said.... I don't like it haha so I really did it 😅
I came across your channel Sat. morning (03-04-23) and I seem to gravitate back to it. Very good reviews and your not trying to sell us something to boot! I've been into wood for 50+ years and am just now getting into the hand tool part. Knowing very little about this world, you've made a part of it much easier. Note; The 50+ yrs. was in construction, so power tools were the norm.
Wow thank you! I truly appreciate your taking the time to share! Means alot!! Welcome to the rabbit hole that is hand tools haha if you have any questions let me know!
Jamie, I watched this right after you published it. I left a positive comment. Katz-Moses released a 4 blade kit that contains 5 screws and a handy - dandy small Allen wrench. It lists for $65, right now it’s on sale for $54. If you’re going to pop for the KM - 17 & are thinking about the additional blades, go ahead and pop on them so you can avoid paying an additional shipping fee. As of today, (8 Jan 2024), the KM - 17 router plane is listed at $230 and on sale for $209 at KM Tools website. Again, Jamie thanks for another informative comparison of router planes.
Excellent video! Nice job. I learned a couple of new things - which I love. Please do one on showing us how to do inlay. I choose Bench Dog as it's really close in quality (the same, IMHO) as LN and I got in on sale for less than $100! Iron is $19.
I have the BenchDog router plane. I paid $99 on sale, free shipping from Rockler. (Great deal!) There are times, late at night or early in the morning, when I don't want to disturb the neighbors with loud machine noise. So I'll use hand tools instead. I enjoy using hand tools on the smaller projects. No noise, no dust, and far less danger than power tools. The ability to turn the cutting iron 180 degrees and use the bull nose feature is useful in tight spaces. If you notice on that side of the plane there are two machined surfaces square with the cutter. Very useful feature for outlining/defining the depth of cut.
Another great video, my man! I love my Veritas router plane. I have the version with the knob-style depth stop. It works great, but be careful not to overtighten as it could potentially damage the post threads. I haven't had any issues with the blade moving. I, too, like LN bench planes over other styles (not a fan of Norris adjusters). I do swap out the irons for PMV-11 on them, though. The only Veritas bench plane I have is a custom 4 1/2 with a custom frog/knob configuration that I have tuned to a very high degree and only use for final smoothing. It stays set just the way I want it thanks to the little grub screws that hold the iron from shifting laterally (and negate the need to use the Norris adjuster very much). I always go to Veritas for specialty planes (shooting, shoulder, combination). They have so many helpful innovations and are far more cost effective. IMO, the price of the LN router plane is absurd. I must say that the Katz-Moses router features are just unnecessary for what a router plane is meant to be used for. If you're hogging out a lot of material with a router plane and getting chatter, you're not using the right tool. The router should be for light passes to fine tune joinery. I won't open the can of worms about the design, but I'm Team Veritas all the way here.
Thank you! You are 100% correct on all points! I sent an email to LV to see if I can get the new style depth stop so maybe then I'll actually use it haha It sounds like you really like the Veritas Custom? Did you get that only to get a higher degree frog? Or is it that much better than the other veritas planes? I've been debating on trying one.
@@BatCaveCreations I do love the custom smoother! After a deep dive into Derek’s review of them, I went for a 42 degree frog with a wide knob and traditional toat. inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html
I have had my Bench Dog for a couple of years now and find it works just fine for me. As a dear friend I used to play guitar with used to say, "That's why they mark towels 'His' and 'Hers', everybody's different". I looked at the Lee Valley adapter's price and etc. and decided that $20.00 Bench Dog replacement blades and my bench grinder would suit my purposes just fine for what I do. As you pointed out, the tolerances are a little more "forgiving", making it easier to move the blade up & down, but, as I discovered, when you lock it in place its the same place in relation to the sole every time. I also found the Paul Sellers method of truing the blade 90º to the sole so it cuts flat and parallel to it works very well. Keep up the good work.
Fantastic review. Love the honest comparisons and this has helped me determine which one to buy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe, that the Kats Moses (Hongdui) is reversible. You have to unscrew, rotate, and screw the entire "pillar" however.
Came here from Just Plane Fun and I'm surprised you dont get as much views and subscibe given the quality of your content. Gotta say you and MJ's channel are my go-to for tool-hunting. Love the no nonsense format as well
I just ordered the Veritas kit. I was looking for videos with this exact content and comparison. Thanks for the video! I feel like I made the right choice. :)
Just a short hint: When fastening the depth stop don't just turn the screw. Instead wobble it bit left to right while fastening the screw really tight. Then it will stay put. Worked fine for me.
@Alpha Omega thank you! I am going to try that. I haven't had issues with it but I pay attention to the depth stop more than I'd like to when advancing haha nerves I guess :)
So to start off, like previously mentioned by commenters, you are very concise and knowledgeable about this. I like your video style and your enthusiasm for the subject. However I do have one issue with what you said about 7:00 into the video. It was about Stanley not having a way to attach a base plate. I have a no. 71 that has a fence as well as the screw holes for the base plate. Also I realize that this is not a video about the historical iterations of the Stanley no. 71 but I thought it would be good information for someone who would want to buy one. Otherwise an excellent resource for woodworking. You have earned a subscribe from me. Can't wait to see what you have in the future.
Thank you!! You are 100% correct, newer type Stanley's do have holes. Thank you for catching that, it will be great for others to know! Also, thank you for the positive feedback! It means a lot!
By the way the Veritas 1/2" iron and pointed iron have screw attachment like the Katz Moses. I don't know the model you have, but my Veritas depth stop slides up and down and is secured with a thumb screw. The Katz Moses depth of cut is more precise over the Veritas. You have to loosen the set screw on the Veritas to move it up and down then tighten the set screw to keep the iron from moving. I like my Veritas, but wish the irons were more secure like Katz Moses. Great video. Like the side by side comparison you do. Keep up the great work.
Thank you!!! After filming this I was informed of the new style depth stop apparently my router plane is OLD OLD haha I bought it used. The KM is deff more percise. Do you find you need that level of accuracy on a router? That was one of the arguments I heard about his plane.
I inherited an old Stanley from my Gr. Gr. Grandfather. It was missing some features, so I bought a similar unit off of eBay that had the depth stop, fence, and extra blades to complete the unit. I also purchased the Katz Moses… pretty excited to use it, but I am waiting for smaller blades (which I have pre-ordered). Not many independent reviews out yet for the KM, so thank you for that!
That is awesome that you inherited one and I am glad you were able to make it complete, deff keep and use both so you don't have to change irons as often :) Thank you! I am happy to help!
Good video man. I have a couple old bench planes but have never even seen a router plane in person but I have really enjoyed watching your videos. You seem super comfortable and it comes across in your videos. Thanks for the review.
Thank you!! I really appreciate that! I'm also glad you enjoyed the video and seeing a router plane I think it is my favorite tool in the shop. I use it for everything haha
Unfortunately the made in China has become equivalent to cheap and poor quality. However there are very good Chinese manufacturers that have high quality and manufacturing standards. Unfortunately they are tainted by these poor quality manufacturers that pump out poor quality and sold at Harbor Freight. If you are looking for quality there will be a higher cost.
I have the other LV depth stop, it won’t damage the threads (steel vs. brass, steel wins every time) BUT I rarely use it as anything other than a suggestion. It’s hard to tighten, and can slide down. That being said, I love this plane! I use it all the time. I had to make my own box for the blades (didn’t exist when I bought mine). One thing to be aware of, similar to any Stanley style plane blade advancement (including LN planes), once you advance the blade you should spin the wheel back until it touches the TOP of the slot or the blade can advance slightly as you cut (I use this purposefully as I’m advancing a cut, it’s just mostly important when you are at depth).
For the Veritas plane there is an old style depth stop with a side screw. You might find that more stable, but it might damage the thread if you overtighten.
I came across the Katz Moses and I have ordered it. And they offer different blades for it (besides the 2 blades that come with it). They sell a set with 4 other sizes 1,6 / 3,2 / 4,8 / 6,35 mm. I like that it is more solid . And the Irons can be turned to the backside too and it is more work to do it than with the other router planes.
Just ordered mine from Km. Haven't heard anything since the confirmation Number. Wondering if you have received your router yet And what your experience was like. Thank you
Yes I have got it - it arrived a few days ago - earlier then it was supposed to arrive. I got a confirmation from the seller after buying. And there was some sort of tracking which often does not work well on international shipping. I have ordered the blades set as well so I have more diversity of what I can do with it (which was the major reason not buying Lie Nielson). I like that the router is much more stable Depth stopp stays in place and the blade too. One does not have to control all the time if all is tight and in place. Which I like very much. It is more work to change the blades and the position of the blades to the backside and I prefer the stability. I did not like that the screw heads which hold the handles stood out a little bit which is easy to fix. Greetings
Thank you very much, and I appreciate the input . I wanted to buy the whole package, but it doesn't seem like they have the blades and stock right now. Thank you so much and happy holidays.
There's more to the open throat closed throat thing on the Stanley 71. My experience with the open throat Stanley is that it allows me to route stopped dadods without fowling the front of the router with shvings. Shaving tend to spill up and jam between the closed throat and the end of the dado. Also, the front foot is left in place when doing "other" work where this issue is not to be expected. So that deals with the issue of routing narrow surfaces. The depth "pin" on the Stanley 71 is not a stop, but a depth indicator. The pointy und is inserted and the clamp is tightened on it at the desired depth. This allows the pin to be inserted every now and then to know if you are at the desired depth. It's not as a good a system as Katz's (I love it) but it sort of works. As initially stated, this is my experience. Not my internet keyboard knowledge. This is how the 71 works.
Thank you for doing this. I bought the Katz during its pre-sale, and glad I did. The thing you didn't like about it (the removable cutter "foot") is what sold me on it; I have a mini-router (Clifton?) that I've NEVER been able to sharpen adequately, the Katz is a breeze (I do use a tray cuz, yeah, that screw is TINY). Katz does have additional blade sizes now, I ordered them (again) on pre-sale, don't have them yet. Again, thanks for the comparo; I feel I've made the right decision for me.
Good! I'm happy to hear that! And ur right taking the blade off would make it easier. Idk if I realized during the video or after but some of the Veritas irons are sharpened that way I just never took them off. They have a jig that helps sharpen them to so I'm deff gonna try that next time!
@@rodrigojauregui1230 unfortunately Chinese made has become equivalent to bad build or quality. However there are very good Chinese manufacturers that produce very high quality products. Unfortunately they are tainted by these low quick quality manufactured goods that are pumped out and sold at Harbor Freight. I have several Chinese mage tools that very good. The KM router plane being one that is excellent quality
The Stanley 71 depth screw is 40TPI. That means that one rotation is .025". So where some routers have measurement marks that may be in millimetres. Those using a Stanley 71 can be very accurate in their adjustment once they understand the 40TPI issue. If I want to get super picky I can easily adjust the depth in thous on an inch (+- .002" to .003"). That facility coupled with a digital calliper is very powerful.
Very informative overview. I have 2 (or maybe 3) old Stanleys but never paid attention to the new versions out there. The splayed handles on the Veritas look much more user-friendly, but that's the type of improvement that made Veritas so successful. p.s. No mention of old woman's tooth routers?
Thank you!! Veritas is deff user friendly just alone with that simple change of angling the handles. I didn't even think about the old woman's tooth router planes when I was filming this :(
i got lucky with an old stanley, $50 with depth adjustment, mouth closure and the three irons. if i wanted/needed a new one, my choice would be the veritas. their inlay system looks very interesting
There is a version of the KM plane that has a depth stop now. I believe KM developed the plane with Hongdui. I bought the Bench Dog, but I'm looking to buy another. It's between the Veritas and KM.
@@BatCaveCreations thanks for the video and the comment my freind. After seeing the fact the medium router plane will sit in the box with the large plane I think that seals the deal. Love you videos man.
Thank you! And that eas a big part of it for me too. Medium and large router planes take the same blades and I use them both fairly offen in projects. I like matching things haha thank you again!!
You can adjust the Stanley that does not have the depth adjuster by tapping the iron gently with a mallet. After you figure out how tight to set the screw and how hard to tap the iron, you will get good enough at it to set it for a very fine cut. I do that with my small Lie Nielsen router that does not have a depth adjuster. Great video BTW.
Paul sellers one is actually better than all of these it doesn’t look as pretty but way easier to use as the blade is at an angle so pulls itself into the cut I find the metal ones try to tip themselves forward and you have to fight it slightly
If I had the plane without the fine adjustment for depth, I'd do this: 1. Put a spacer (e.g., playing card) under the sole 2. Drop the blade 3. Remove spacer and use tool. 4. Repeat steps 1-3 until desired depth of cut is achieved. I think both of those Stanleys are pre-1906 due to the lack of factory holes in the sole.
The blade selection and cost of additional blades is the main reason i switched from LN to Veritas. I still need to pick up the inlay cutters which is on my near future purchase list. The other reason i switched was the fence groove on the bottom of the LN tended to get caught on the end grain when I was doing sliding dovetails and would chip it out. Now this didn't happen all the time, wood dependent, but was a factor nonetheless.
That is a very good point! I can't remember off the top of my head but the veritas fence, can we attach wood to the flat side? If no holes are there, I'm sure we could drill holes and attach wood of we wanted. That is not an option on the LN one. It's just all around more affordable and more versatile. You will love the inlay cutter it's very helpful!
I’ve watched several of your videos and I must say it’s exactly the info I need to make informed decisions without the “Hollywood” crap I have to wade through on YT. Subbed!
Thank you so much!! I appreciate that! Deff try to stay neutral and give the facts. That was very tough in this video because the veritas router has my heart hahahaha
Come on now Jamie, Katz-Moses based his design on the Veritas, then improved upon it. First off, the depth of cut measurement scale, that is precision. Second, everything is machined to closer tolerances. In the world of patents, improving the design can get you a new patent. Based upon is not copied. Yes Jamie, I came back and rewatched this video. I enjoyed it just as much. Keep it up.
Thank you!!! And welcome back hahaha Ya that topic is highly devated, I see what your saying but I also feel some type of way that they didn't come up with something new. Like LN copied Stanley, improved it because we can now but stanley isn't making bedrock anymore. Veritas is still making theirs, I think that's what bugs me about it :(
I dont own the veritas but i do know if you want to lock two nuts together on a thread so they wont move, you need to tighten them against each other with two spanners/wrenches. If you only hand tighten them they wil just move along the thread together and not lock up. So maybe use a tool to tighten up, hope this helps. Great channel btw.
@inkandbarrel I highly reccomend the veritas. It's the most universal for the price and it's never let me down (now that I have the improved depth stop ahhahah)
Thankyou for a well structured and comprehensive review. I'm astonished there are still so many limitations in each design despite their time in market. Veritas is most easily available in Australia, but at eye watering price (i can almost buy from US shop and import it myself cheaper). KMT doesn't seem to have replacement blades available which is a bit of a turn off. You addressed the Veritas locking screw coming loose. Does that screw interface with the depth adjuster thread (concern over damage) or a plate on the blade holder? Is there any noticeable difference in backlash / blade movement between the planes? You did mention KMT has most solid blade holding. Do you find yourself using the different irons often? Again. Great video!
Thank you! You are correct none are perfect haha I only had issued with the blade lock on the veritas when I was being too rough with it or trying to be tough and take a deep pass. It doesn't interfere with the depth screw. It pinches the iron onto a v groove plate. So maybe ppl messed that up? I'll have to check mine haha Backlash/movement wise I would say that KM has the least, then LN, BD, Veritas, Stanley. But... it really depends on how heavy of a cut your taking. Alot of ppl are ROUGH with router planes haha I like how the veritas moves because thay movement tells me I'm being too rough and I back off and take a lighter pass. I change irons ALL THE TIME haha I mean if you have 5 boards with 3/8 groves your gonna use the same iron for all that, but I do alot of projects with different sizes, weird inlays, etc. So I'm swapping then out alot. Ppl use chisels where I use the router cus I prefer it over chisels. Have more control and precision for me :) I hope that help! Thank you again!!
@Bat Cave Creations thankyou for the detailed timely reply! I'm a very green hobbyist but value good design and execution - it makes the experience a joy. Your video has nudged me towards the Veritas option. It has been very hard to find good information on tools (and impossible to lay hands on them) prior to purchase. It surprises me that simple things like squareness and flatness and backlash aren't advertised or evaluated as they are with power tools or other items. Also assessment of features that impact usability like blade alignment you noted in your shoulder plane video. Veritas, Stanley and Luban are most accessible here, but can import Clifton, Woodriver and Lie Nielsen at a pinch. Useful to have the information before committing to an import ;)
Happy to help!! I started put where you are too without enough info so I'm trying to be a RUclipsr that changes thay :) How do you like Clifton? Never got to try one but I hear they are better than LN
@Bat Cave Creations to give context I am only a few months into this journey and the only plane I own is a 40 year old Stanley workman #4. It was neither flat nor square but I've now (after lots of youtube) tuned it to be an acceptable smoother. I have a number of veritas accessories (making gauges, honing guides etc.) that I'm very impressed with. Money isn't really an issue, but by the same token I appreciate quality and value of key features over gold plating and polish. I've seen a Clifton 5 1/2 on display and they do look and feel superb. Compared to the stanley Bailey next to it the stanley was truly a cheap toy. I have no experience with the Clifton performance in use and wanted more information before pulling the trigger on that occasion. I'm about to start a project to build a dresser for my daughter. In the next week or so I'd like to order a jack plane (62 or 5 1/2), router plane, shoulder plane and combination plane. I've been researching these for some weeks. I don't actually need the tools for the job, but it is fun to hunt for tools and play with new toys. If I take the jack as an example, the Veritas LA is AU 469 delivered and Luban is AU 299 delivered. For standards, the Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 is AU 899 + shipping, Clifton is AU 750 Delivered and woodriver (#5 only) AU 535 delivered. I'm leaning towards the Veritas LA but the Clifton 5 1/2 std had been a strong #2 consideration. Similarly for medium shoulder planes it is Clifton AU 485 delivered, veritas AU 379 delivered and luban AU199 delivered. I'm again leaning towards Veritas as a better balance of quality, features and price however there are no direct comparison reviews out there for these models.
@Morgan James ah ok I get you, those are huge price differences there. Are you in Can I Have It on Facebook we have many sellers willing to ship internationally. Buying used with same you some money and maybe bundle a shipment and get 1 big instead of all these seperate shipments. I have heard good and bad about Luban, it's Woodriver from what I hear just under a different name. Clifton won't disappoint and neither will veritas. Both make quality tools. I have not tried Clifton but what I hear is that it's better than veritas and LN. But veritas jointery/specialty planes have been taking the cake for me. Where LN benchplanes are winning so check the specs of Clifton and see what features the offer and weigh that against the price compared to veritas. There is a guy in the group that actually lives in Australia and has a huge tool company there but travels to the US to get tools. This is his site and that may help too if you are open to used tools: www.toolexchange.com.au/
Looking forward to more videos. You make very concise, to the point content I wish was around when I was making decisions about tools in question. As far router planes go, since I had no mid priced option I went full hobo-woodworker and made one those with a blade made from an allen key, somehow, it still works. However, when doing larger dadoes (or dados? no idea) in soft wood, I get problems with tear out. Right now I am building a wall shelf with dovetailed sides and mortised and dadoed inner shelves. I cut the sides of the dadoes with a saw and a chisel, but to get a flat bottom I eventually went with electric router after all. Also, would love to have a plough plane, but they are too expensive considering how sparingly I would use them.
Thank you!!! User made routers are awesome I wanna make one one day. Did you try putting a shallower or steeper angle on the cutter? Also, are you in Can I Have It on FB sometimes you can get a plow plane for a pretty good price. Usually better than ebay lol
@@BatCaveCreations No, I live in central Europe (the narex chisels, thats us). Used hand tool market for planes is virtually non exist around here, so finding stuff that works and which brands to buy was quite a workout at first.
Ah deff check the group out we have many sellers that ship international and there is another group called international buggies or something like that, that helps ppl ship international for cheap. If you aren't in a hurry haha
@@BatCaveCreations I will. I pretty much have all the planes I need. I'm lucky enough that we make dirt cheap wooden planes. They take some work to set up and maintain, but by far they are my most favourite users.
are the holes on the depth stop knobs threaded? they look kinda like they should have a tiny locking screw. I don't have one so I don't know but it would make sense.
No I guess they are there so you use like 2 small Allen keys and pinch then together to tighten but I upgraded to the new version so it's alot better now!
When you have everything locked in is their usually a little slop in the blade mechanism if you try to move it around? Not much, but enough to hear a little click if you know what I mean.
For the veritas, no. I lock the blade down it's solid. If you are taking to heavy of a shaving tho it can move. :/ If you mean on the veritas when advancing or retracting the iron, YES! And it gets me every so offten lol the slot in the iron is a little bigger than the depth adjust wheel.
@@BatCaveCreations I meant when it is locked. The mechanism on the KM rotates left and right when you look down from the top. It looks like the cutting edge doesn't move up or down from the cutting plane, so that is good. When you say the Veritas moves taking a heavy shaving do you mean depth or left-right like mine?
@@BatCaveCreations I know you borrowed it, but you have helped. I am knew to planes of any sort, so I wondered if they all moved some. I think I would rather a little left right than up down motion, but none would be even better. Have you seen any of the Cowryman router planes? I know you like them, so I thought I would let you know if you haven't.
@SaintFredrocks oh ok! They really shouldn't move at all when locked down unless your being aggressive or there is an error with the plane That other brand is cool too! Haven't tried it yet but it's a bit like a witches tooth router. A population vintage style
It is only $167 right now, and you can probably get a coupon. I was looking at it yesterday, and they gave me $50 worth of coupons for creating an account saving me $15 on this. I really don't see how the Veritas is better other than the cutter selection and of course you don't like the cutter removal. You get the two cutters with the plane plus they sell a kit now with five smaller cutters for $55 and the Katz Moses site says they will be offering a larger variety of individual cutters soon. I saw in another review that the way they made the frame on the KM-17 makes it more rust resistant than the Veritas. I have been on the fence between the KM and Veritas, but with the quality of the tool, the CAM lock depth stop and the price, I think I will be buying the KM-17 Pro with seven cutters shipped for $206 this week@@BatCaveCreations
Lee Valley has not manufactured that style of depth stop on their large router plane for quite a few years. The current depth stop is rock solid. It was recognized early on with the Veritas that the depth stop was deficient and a number of people came up with solutions to add a LN style depth to the Veritas. To state that the design of the depth stop is a deficiency of the Veritas router plane as currently manufactured is incorrect.
Are the sides of the blades supposed to be parallel to each other? I have been going through a nightmare trying to sharpen the main blade for the KM-17. The bevel was cut at an angle as well as being convex. The base was convex too, and the edges are not parallel to each other or perpendicular to the cutting edge. EDIT: I contacted the company that makes the plane, and they apologized and sent me a new blade the next day no charge and no problems.
Ouch that stinks I'm sorry but technically they don't need to be parallel unless you are cutting stopped grooves and it comes to a 90* stop. If that makes sense . Leave it as is and let the angle catch up to 90 over time For the convex as long as it's cutting flat your fine but if it's cutting at a convex thay isn't good :/ Mainly it just need to cut glad groves if it's heavy on one side or not flat it's not good. See if they will replace it! Or return it and get veritas hahah
@@BatCaveCreations it didn't want to cut anything. The way it was when you looked at the cutting edge from the front it looked like it was starting to say oh. I wasn't sure about the sides, so I thought I'd ask. That bevel was ridiculous. I put in a request for a new blade before I posted above. The rest of the plane looks really nice and everyone seems to really like it, so I figure I'll be happy with a new blade.
@@SaintFredrocks oh sorry I thought you meant the bottom of the plane wasn't flat :( I'm with you now hopefully they get you a new blade and you get the plane to work! I LOVE the router plane. It does alot but I also find excuses to use it haha
@@BatCaveCreations I don't know why I didn't before, but I was just using the pointy blade, and this thing works great. I am really looking forward to getting that new blade. It's funny. It seems like every time I sharpen something for the first time there is a problem. The last time, oddly enough, I was using my Veritas sharpening jig mk ii whatever for the first time sharpening my Narex chisels for the first time. I kept getting a crooked bevel no matter what I did. It turns out the roller mechanism from Veritas was bad. It doesn't seem to matter where things are made, there are always a few lemons in the batch. Have a good one, and thanks for getting back to me on this. I have been woodworking for a long time, but I am just learning about most of the hand tools, so it is nice to be able to ask someone that knows what they are doing. What part of WPa are you from? I'm from Indiana, Pa originally.
@SaintFredrocks 100% there are always lemons! It happens it all depends on how the company handles it. I am originally from Califormia. Now I life near Kittanning, PA. Not to far from Indiana!
Veritas only sells the router as a closed throat. I also have the Veritas. I end up using the depth adjuster as a rough estimate and fine tune with a depth gauge.
@@BatCaveCreations I have the new style. It works well, but if you aren't paying attention and keep trying to turn down the depth adjuster, the stop will still budge. Not as much as what you showed though
I’ve got the KM Tools router plane and the single biggest issue. The only reason I’m keeping it, I’ve seen a instagram story from Jonathon where they were shown in the background and he said “oh don’t look at those” so it would seem like they’re coming. The knobs aren’t nearly as smooth as the Veritas so that was a little disappointing.
@@BatCaveCreations sorry, that was totally unclear. The additional blades that hopefully will become available. Their lack of availability at launch was my biggest issue
@@BatCaveCreations wish I knew. They were only shown for a split second. I just hope they passed testing. It’s definitely been a while so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@Devin Teske no :( I was told I have the old style depth stop tho and on the new version it's 100x better. I em LV to see if I can buy the new version without buying the whole plane haha
The holes are there to allow you to insert small rods (small Allen keys) and then tighten the two collars against each other. The rods will give you more purcase to tighten them. Two nuts that are tightened against each other like this won't move and will function as a rock solid depth stop.
I found this video very informative. On the Veritas depth stop, I think I saw two set screws in each stop. If so, these could be locked with an allen wrench and they will not move.
Thank you! And your right there are holes for that but veritas made an upgraded one so I just got one of those. Don't wanna have to use to amen keys to tighten those every time I need to ahhaa
KM router is only similar to Veritas with base and knobs. How the blade is held to the body is completely different. I wouldn't call it's a copy of Veritas. Bench Dog seems to be an exact copy of LN, based on Rob Cosman's review. It seems to be ok quality, and quite cheaper than LN. LN is only similar to Stanley No 71 with base and knobs. How the blade is held to the body is completely different. Blade adjustment is the same. Stanley No 71 has several iterations. You showed 2 earlier models. Veritas is actually very similar to newer Stanley No 71 in terms of how the blade is held to the body and how blade is adjusted. A collar is holding the blade to the body, and blade can be removed about the same way as on Veritas. I never used the front foot on No 71 as depth stop. It's quite wide comparing to all the blades you can fit on a No 71. I only use it as front support, and I usually do not have that assembly on it at all. Stanley 71-1/2 is the close throat version. The simplified copy chain is, LN copied Stanley's body and blade adjustment. Bench Dog copied LN almost completely. Veritas copied Stanley's blade retension and adjustment. KM copied Veritas' body. LN, Veritas and KM both have their innovations in this topic. Last thing to note is KM didn't develope this router plane. It's a rebranded Hongdui one.
Moses for the win. In done with wobbly planes if it's the most solid than I have the most confidence in it being the last one I ever have to buy. Also it's not hard to tap a a little piece of metal to mak ed your own cutters. With the ad tdd anley types making your own specialty cutters would be sookoo much more work I wouldn't even go there. But tapping finer a screw and filing 3 lines, I couls bnb do that if i had to which I'd call a major plus. Also the depth readout I sa accurate and clear.
The KM router plane pro version provides a depth stop. In my opinion it is a better choice than the Veritas, especially it improves on the Veritas depth stop. Excellent build and quality and I believe slightly cheaper than Veritas.
Got to say, you haven’t been doing this for long, but you’ve surely have got honed to a high level. It’s clear and concise. You come across in a relaxed manner, like you’re talking to a buddy there in the shop one on one. The thought structuring of points to consider evaluating a tool is great. 👍x10 Overall great job, thanks & keep it up.
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate that!!!
I second this
Thank you!!!!
As a Canadian living near Ottawa, I have a natural preference for Veritas as a brand. I'm happy to see that their router plane wins out in most areas as well. When I buy one, I'll buy local. Thanks for the very informative review!
I have to reiterate what other commenters are saying about this channel. You do an excellent presentation, very logical and well presented. Looks like this channel is growing by leaps and bounds. Thank you so much for this channel. Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much!!! I appreciate you!
I just received the Katz-Moses KM-17 Pro model which adds a really cool depth stop and a blade sharpening jig handle that doubles as a marking knife with the pointed iron so now it’s like getting two tools in one. I also purchased a set of additional cutter width irons. The tool as sent is remarkable and very well made. It will perform to all of my needs with great satisfaction. I feel that between all of the top brands the KM 17 Pro is right up there with the best of them until you want the adapters to cut inlays which is only available with the Veritas. If you don’t need that you can save a considerable amount. The KM-17 Pro base is made from steel and not cast iron like the others. It has a great weight and feel to it and the machining on mine was perfect. I’m just putting it to some light usage right now but feel like this is going to work out great for the long term. All of my previous purchases of other Hongdui tools have been good buys.
Thank you for sharing! That is great for people to read!!!
One of the most comprehensive comparative reviews I’ve watched. Great job and great video!
Thank you!!
Good compare/contrast/review video!
Thank you!!
Thanks for your deep dive. It will definitely help me to make my decision. Looking forward to to more from you!
I own the KM-17 and you very much CAN change the blade orientation 180°. You flip the complete mechanism with 2 bolts. Oh and I don't know about your version but on mine there is a very good depth stop.
I love watching your videos. It’s always nice to have someone testing and comparing products to give us (consumers) a better idea of which ones to buy for our specific needs. I know you did the lie Nielsen vs veritas chisels. Would like to see that one again with the IBC and Blue Spruce dovetail chisels added in. Also dovetail saw showdown between Cosman saw, Veritas, Bad Axe and Skelton Saw
Thank you!!!
And trust me I would LOVE to review those, all of those but they are outta my $$ reach atm. I can try to see if someone has any I can borrow but idk if they will let me after watching me bash the LN and Veritas chisels hahahah
The Katz Moses is reversible, but it involves removing and flipping the whole adjustment mechanism rather than just the iron. I believe there has also been a statement made that additional irons are coming.
that is what the KM site says
Your enthusiasm is infectious love your show
Thank you!!! :D
I have a Veritas with the side screw depth stop. As Dagomirdichev suggests below, the side screw has the potential to damage the threads on the post, especially because it needs to be cranked pretty tight to resist the downward pressure of that big height adjuster wheel. However, I find that I don't bother to use it most of the time anyways. Something you didn't discuss is the sharpening system, with the two-part blades and the jig handle, which isn't unique to the Veritas, but is, imo, a big advantage over the Stanley & Lie Neilson one-piece irons. In any event, one of your best videos yet. Congratulations on the ever-improving channel. We love you right back.
Ah crap ur right! I didn't mention the jig at all and that makes a mig diff in sharpening the blade tips. Good catch!!!
Thank you! Not gonna lie this one was a challenge I recorded a while video watched it and said.... I don't like it haha so I really did it 😅
I came across your channel Sat. morning (03-04-23) and I seem to gravitate back to it. Very good reviews and your not trying to sell us something to boot!
I've been into wood for 50+ years and am just now getting into the hand tool part. Knowing very little about this world, you've made a part of it much easier.
Note; The 50+ yrs. was in construction, so power tools were the norm.
Wow thank you! I truly appreciate your taking the time to share! Means alot!!
Welcome to the rabbit hole that is hand tools haha if you have any questions let me know!
Great video. Fwiw Stanley 71 1/2 is closed throat.
ah! ur right!! Thank you!
Jamie, I watched this right after you published it. I left a positive comment. Katz-Moses released a 4 blade kit that contains 5 screws and a handy - dandy small Allen wrench. It lists for $65, right now it’s on sale for $54. If you’re going to pop for the KM - 17 & are thinking about the additional blades, go ahead and pop on them so you can avoid paying an additional shipping fee. As of today, (8 Jan 2024), the KM - 17 router plane is listed at $230 and on sale for $209 at KM Tools website. Again, Jamie thanks for another informative comparison of router planes.
Thank you for the update! That's awesome info to share!!!
Fantastic job Sir. Very thorough and to the point... Just how I like em!!
Thank you!!!
Excellent video! Nice job. I learned a couple of new things - which I love. Please do one on showing us how to do inlay. I choose Bench Dog as it's really close in quality (the same, IMHO) as LN and I got in on sale for less than $100! Iron is $19.
great idea!! Thank you! and thank you again for letting me borrow the plane, you rock!
I have the BenchDog router plane.
I paid $99 on sale, free shipping from Rockler. (Great deal!)
There are times, late at night or early in the morning, when I don't want to disturb the neighbors with loud machine noise.
So I'll use hand tools instead.
I enjoy using hand tools on the smaller projects. No noise, no dust, and far less danger than power tools.
The ability to turn the cutting iron 180 degrees and use the bull nose feature is useful in tight spaces. If you notice on that side of the plane there are two machined surfaces square with the cutter. Very useful feature for outlining/defining the depth of cut.
I 100% agree! Hand tools are great when you need to be quite haha and they are cleaner!
Thank you for sharing!!!
Another great video, my man! I love my Veritas router plane. I have the version with the knob-style depth stop. It works great, but be careful not to overtighten as it could potentially damage the post threads. I haven't had any issues with the blade moving.
I, too, like LN bench planes over other styles (not a fan of Norris adjusters). I do swap out the irons for PMV-11 on them, though. The only Veritas bench plane I have is a custom 4 1/2 with a custom frog/knob configuration that I have tuned to a very high degree and only use for final smoothing. It stays set just the way I want it thanks to the little grub screws that hold the iron from shifting laterally (and negate the need to use the Norris adjuster very much).
I always go to Veritas for specialty planes (shooting, shoulder, combination). They have so many helpful innovations and are far more cost effective. IMO, the price of the LN router plane is absurd.
I must say that the Katz-Moses router features are just unnecessary for what a router plane is meant to be used for. If you're hogging out a lot of material with a router plane and getting chatter, you're not using the right tool. The router should be for light passes to fine tune joinery. I won't open the can of worms about the design, but I'm Team Veritas all the way here.
Thank you! You are 100% correct on all points!
I sent an email to LV to see if I can get the new style depth stop so maybe then I'll actually use it haha
It sounds like you really like the Veritas Custom? Did you get that only to get a higher degree frog? Or is it that much better than the other veritas planes? I've been debating on trying one.
@@BatCaveCreations I do love the custom smoother! After a deep dive into Derek’s review of them, I went for a 42 degree frog with a wide knob and traditional toat. inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html
Perfect!! Thank you for sharing!
I have had my Bench Dog for a couple of years now and find it works just fine for me. As a dear friend I used to play guitar with used to say, "That's why they mark towels 'His' and 'Hers', everybody's different". I looked at the Lee Valley adapter's price and etc. and decided that $20.00 Bench Dog replacement blades and my bench grinder would suit my purposes just fine for what I do. As you pointed out, the tolerances are a little more "forgiving", making it easier to move the blade up & down, but, as I discovered, when you lock it in place its the same place in relation to the sole every time. I also found the Paul Sellers method of truing the blade 90º to the sole so it cuts flat and parallel to it works very well. Keep up the good work.
Thank you!!! That is great to hear to! I know I can get tool snobby but really as long as the tools works it works! And that's all that matter :D
@@BatCaveCreations, My philosophy is: "Its impossible to have too many tools, too much space to store them or too much money to afford it all".
@@johnbesharian9965 hahaha YES
Thanks for the info. Clear and concise. Enjoyed the segment.
Thank you! This was one of my fave to make!
Fantastic review. Love the honest comparisons and this has helped me determine which one to buy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe, that the Kats Moses (Hongdui) is reversible. You have to unscrew, rotate, and screw the entire "pillar" however.
Thank you!! You are correct, I never noticed it before or thought that it could be done but his website says you can! Good catch!
Came here from Just Plane Fun and I'm surprised you dont get as much views and subscibe given the quality of your content. Gotta say you and MJ's channel are my go-to for tool-hunting. Love the no nonsense format as well
Thank you!! I appreciate that!
Maybe a fancy tool wall will help hahhaha
@@BatCaveCreations great idea! To show off your collection as well haha!
Haha maybe one day, I'd have to rearrange the shop/basement. And.... it will take alot of work but... I'd film it so it'd be another video hahahha
I just ordered the Veritas kit. I was looking for videos with this exact content and comparison. Thanks for the video! I feel like I made the right choice. :)
Shhh I have to agree with you :D hahah glad it helped!!!
Just a short hint: When fastening the depth stop don't just turn the screw. Instead wobble it bit left to right while fastening the screw really tight. Then it will stay put. Worked fine for me.
@Alpha Omega thank you! I am going to try that. I haven't had issues with it but I pay attention to the depth stop more than I'd like to when advancing haha nerves I guess :)
Great comparison! Thanks for the deep dive on this topic 🙂👍
So to start off, like previously mentioned by commenters, you are very concise and knowledgeable about this. I like your video style and your enthusiasm for the subject. However I do have one issue with what you said about 7:00 into the video. It was about Stanley not having a way to attach a base plate. I have a no. 71 that has a fence as well as the screw holes for the base plate. Also I realize that this is not a video about the historical iterations of the Stanley no. 71 but I thought it would be good information for someone who would want to buy one. Otherwise an excellent resource for woodworking. You have earned a subscribe from me. Can't wait to see what you have in the future.
Thank you!! You are 100% correct, newer type Stanley's do have holes. Thank you for catching that, it will be great for others to know! Also, thank you for the positive feedback! It means a lot!
By the way the Veritas 1/2" iron and pointed iron have screw attachment like the Katz Moses. I don't know the model you have, but my Veritas depth stop slides up and down and is secured with a thumb screw. The Katz Moses depth of cut is more precise over the Veritas. You have to loosen the set screw on the Veritas to move it up and down then tighten the set screw to keep the iron from moving. I like my Veritas, but wish the irons were more secure like Katz Moses. Great video. Like the side by side comparison you do. Keep up the great work.
Thank you!!!
After filming this I was informed of the new style depth stop apparently my router plane is OLD OLD haha I bought it used.
The KM is deff more percise. Do you find you need that level of accuracy on a router? That was one of the arguments I heard about his plane.
I inherited an old Stanley from my Gr. Gr. Grandfather. It was missing some features, so I bought a similar unit off of eBay that had the depth stop, fence, and extra blades to complete the unit. I also purchased the Katz Moses… pretty excited to use it, but I am waiting for smaller blades (which I have pre-ordered). Not many independent reviews out yet for the KM, so thank you for that!
That is awesome that you inherited one and I am glad you were able to make it complete, deff keep and use both so you don't have to change irons as often :)
Thank you! I am happy to help!
Good video man. I have a couple old bench planes but have never even seen a router plane in person but I have really enjoyed watching your videos. You seem super comfortable and it comes across in your videos. Thanks for the review.
Thank you!! I really appreciate that! I'm also glad you enjoyed the video and seeing a router plane I think it is my favorite tool in the shop. I use it for everything haha
@@BatCaveCreations it’s the next day and my boss brought his veritos in. Very cool
Yes!! Deff worth the investment imo!
Thanks for the mention! Great video! I know someone else who loves router planes 😛
You may actually love them more than I do! Haha
Great Review!! yes Katz-Moses is a copy of Veritas router plane Made in China, so disappointed with KM tools.
Unfortunately the made in China has become equivalent to cheap and poor quality. However there are very good Chinese manufacturers that have high quality and manufacturing standards. Unfortunately they are tainted by these poor quality manufacturers that pump out poor quality and sold at Harbor Freight. If you are looking for quality there will be a higher cost.
I have the other LV depth stop, it won’t damage the threads (steel vs. brass, steel wins every time) BUT I rarely use it as anything other than a suggestion. It’s hard to tighten, and can slide down. That being said, I love this plane! I use it all the time. I had to make my own box for the blades (didn’t exist when I bought mine). One thing to be aware of, similar to any Stanley style plane blade advancement (including LN planes), once you advance the blade you should spin the wheel back until it touches the TOP of the slot or the blade can advance slightly as you cut (I use this purposefully as I’m advancing a cut, it’s just mostly important when you are at depth).
Yes!!! That is 100% correct! There is some play in the depth that needs to be accounted for. Thank you for adding!
For the Veritas plane there is an old style depth stop with a side screw. You might find that more stable, but it might damage the thread if you overtighten.
Thank you!! Im em LV to see if I can buy one separately
@@BatCaveCreations It will be nice if you can make video comparison between the new style depth stop and the old style. Not sure which one is better.
Yes!! I deff will when I get my hands on the new style.
I came across the Katz Moses and I have ordered it. And they offer different blades for it (besides the 2 blades that come with it). They sell a set with 4 other sizes 1,6 / 3,2 / 4,8 / 6,35 mm. I like that it is more solid . And the Irons can be turned to the backside too and it is more work to do it than with the other router planes.
Just ordered mine from Km. Haven't heard anything since the confirmation Number. Wondering if you have received your router yet And what your experience was like. Thank you
Yes I have got it - it arrived a few days ago - earlier then it was supposed to arrive. I got a confirmation from the seller after buying. And there was some sort of tracking which often does not work well on international shipping. I have ordered the blades set as well so I have more diversity of what I can do with it (which was the major reason not buying Lie Nielson). I like that the router is much more stable Depth stopp stays in place and the blade too. One does not have to control all the time if all is tight and in place. Which I like very much. It is more work to change the blades and the position of the blades to the backside and I prefer the stability. I did not like that the screw heads which hold the handles stood out a little bit which is easy to fix. Greetings
Thank you very much, and I appreciate the input . I wanted to buy the whole package, but it doesn't seem like they have the blades and stock right now. Thank you so much and happy holidays.
There's more to the open throat closed throat thing on the Stanley 71. My experience with the open throat Stanley is that it allows me to route stopped dadods without fowling the front of the router with shvings. Shaving tend to spill up and jam between the closed throat and the end of the dado. Also, the front foot is left in place when doing "other" work where this issue is not to be expected. So that deals with the issue of routing narrow surfaces. The depth "pin" on the Stanley 71 is not a stop, but a depth indicator. The pointy und is inserted and the clamp is tightened on it at the desired depth. This allows the pin to be inserted every now and then to know if you are at the desired depth. It's not as a good a system as Katz's (I love it) but it sort of works. As initially stated, this is my experience. Not my internet keyboard knowledge. This is how the 71 works.
Thank you for doing this. I bought the Katz during its pre-sale, and glad I did. The thing you didn't like about it (the removable cutter "foot") is what sold me on it; I have a mini-router (Clifton?) that I've NEVER been able to sharpen adequately, the Katz is a breeze (I do use a tray cuz, yeah, that screw is TINY). Katz does have additional blade sizes now, I ordered them (again) on pre-sale, don't have them yet.
Again, thanks for the comparo; I feel I've made the right decision for me.
Good! I'm happy to hear that! And ur right taking the blade off would make it easier. Idk if I realized during the video or after but some of the Veritas irons are sharpened that way I just never took them off. They have a jig that helps sharpen them to so I'm deff gonna try that next time!
Thanks man, what I can't get my head around is quality, like KM and Veritas are same price, but one is ¿Chinese?
@@rodrigojauregui1230 unfortunately Chinese made has become equivalent to bad build or quality. However there are very good Chinese manufacturers that produce very high quality products. Unfortunately they are tainted by these low quick quality manufactured goods that are pumped out and sold at Harbor Freight. I have several Chinese mage tools that very good. The KM router plane being one that is excellent quality
The Stanley 71 depth screw is 40TPI. That means that one rotation is .025". So where some routers have measurement marks that may be in millimetres. Those using a Stanley 71 can be very accurate in their adjustment once they understand the 40TPI issue. If I want to get super picky I can easily adjust the depth in thous on an inch (+- .002" to .003"). That facility coupled with a digital calliper is very powerful.
Thank you! That is great info!!!
Very informative overview. I have 2 (or maybe 3) old Stanleys but never paid attention to the new versions out there. The splayed handles on the Veritas look much more user-friendly, but that's the type of improvement that made Veritas so successful.
p.s. No mention of old woman's tooth routers?
Thank you!! Veritas is deff user friendly just alone with that simple change of angling the handles.
I didn't even think about the old woman's tooth router planes when I was filming this :(
Next time let me know if you’d like to borrow the Records! :)
Ah... that would have been good too!!! Thank you!!
Good video, I have really liked this series. Lee valley has changed the design of thier depth stop to be more like the lie Nielson one,.
Yes! I just learned that! And I em then to see if I can buy one seperatly ahha
Love router planes made my own out of oak works well ,I also have trouble making my depth stop work so use it without.
I deff thought about making my own and may attempt it one day! I have seen some really cool user made ones!
i got lucky with an old stanley, $50 with depth adjustment, mouth closure and the three irons. if i wanted/needed a new one, my choice would be the veritas. their inlay system looks very interesting
Wow great find for $50!!
I'm learning alot of ppl don't know about the veritas inlay attachment so imma do a video on it too :)
There is a version of the KM plane that has a depth stop now. I believe KM developed the plane with Hongdui. I bought the Bench Dog, but I'm looking to buy another. It's between the Veritas and KM.
Oh that's cool! I went with Veritas, had it before KM came out with his but I think even I had the choice again today I'd still go veritas.
@@BatCaveCreations thanks for the video and the comment my freind. After seeing the fact the medium router plane will sit in the box with the large plane I think that seals the deal. Love you videos man.
Thank you! And that eas a big part of it for me too. Medium and large router planes take the same blades and I use them both fairly offen in projects. I like matching things haha thank you again!!
You can adjust the Stanley that does not have the depth adjuster by tapping the iron gently with a mallet. After you figure out how tight to set the screw and how hard to tap the iron, you will get good enough at it to set it for a very fine cut. I do that with my small Lie Nielsen router that does not have a depth adjuster.
Great video BTW.
I deff need to get better with the hammer tap taps! I struggle with that haha
And thank you!!
22:07 I don't know. Unscrewing a screw vs. trying to sharpen an entire iron seems like an easy trade off to me.
I love the bocote stick!
had to be bocote right? :D you know me!
Great summary, will do the Paul Sellers homemade kit until I splurge for the Veritas.
Thank you! And I want to make one of those, one of these days! They look fun!
Paul sellers one is actually better than all of these it doesn’t look as pretty but way easier to use as the blade is at an angle so pulls itself into the cut I find the metal ones try to tip themselves forward and you have to fight it slightly
If I had the plane without the fine adjustment for depth, I'd do this:
1. Put a spacer (e.g., playing card) under the sole
2. Drop the blade
3. Remove spacer and use tool.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until desired depth of cut is achieved.
I think both of those Stanleys are pre-1906 due to the lack of factory holes in the sole.
This is perfect! Thank you!!!
That Veritas depth stop is different than mine. I have the newer one and it works great.
Ah! I didn't realize there was a new one. Imma see if I can buy it!
@@BatCaveCreations Worth a shot for sure.
@Eric Lapointe oh 100% I sent an email to Lee Valley, we will see if I can buy it seperatly.
@@BatCaveCreations it may be available as an upgrade kit. just send lee valley an email, their customer service is impeccable.
Thank you! I did and yes they are I'm always happy after I talk to LV ppl!
The blade selection and cost of additional blades is the main reason i switched from LN to Veritas. I still need to pick up the inlay cutters which is on my near future purchase list. The other reason i switched was the fence groove on the bottom of the LN tended to get caught on the end grain when I was doing sliding dovetails and would chip it out. Now this didn't happen all the time, wood dependent, but was a factor nonetheless.
That is a very good point! I can't remember off the top of my head but the veritas fence, can we attach wood to the flat side? If no holes are there, I'm sure we could drill holes and attach wood of we wanted. That is not an option on the LN one.
It's just all around more affordable and more versatile. You will love the inlay cutter it's very helpful!
I’ve watched several of your videos and I must say it’s exactly the info I need to make informed decisions without the “Hollywood” crap I have to wade through on YT. Subbed!
Thank you so much!! I appreciate that! Deff try to stay neutral and give the facts. That was very tough in this video because the veritas router has my heart hahahaha
Come on now Jamie, Katz-Moses based his design on the Veritas, then improved upon it. First off, the depth of cut measurement scale, that is precision. Second, everything is machined to closer tolerances. In the world of patents, improving the design can get you a new patent. Based upon is not copied. Yes Jamie, I came back and rewatched this video. I enjoyed it just as much. Keep it up.
Thank you!!! And welcome back hahaha
Ya that topic is highly devated, I see what your saying but I also feel some type of way that they didn't come up with something new. Like LN copied Stanley, improved it because we can now but stanley isn't making bedrock anymore. Veritas is still making theirs, I think that's what bugs me about it :(
I dont own the veritas but i do know if you want to lock two nuts together on a thread so they wont move, you need to tighten them against each other with two spanners/wrenches. If you only hand tighten them they wil just move along the thread together and not lock up. So maybe use a tool to tighten up, hope this helps. Great channel btw.
Thank you! Ya I learned that after the fact :( haha I also learned I have an old version and was able to upgrade to a lock collar :D
On the recent Veritas, they corrected the deep stop by changing it for a collet and a loking screw.
Thank you! I emailed LV to see if I can buy one for my plane! If I can a short video will follow so others can learn what I just did hahah
Odd question. Have you ever reached out to Veritas about the depth stop? it would be interesting to know what their feedback is.
I did! That was an old style they sent me one of the new style stops. Much better!!! Apparently mine was really old lol I bought that plane used
@@BatCaveCreations awesome! I was considering one.
@inkandbarrel I highly reccomend the veritas. It's the most universal for the price and it's never let me down (now that I have the improved depth stop ahhahah)
Thankyou for a well structured and comprehensive review.
I'm astonished there are still so many limitations in each design despite their time in market.
Veritas is most easily available in Australia, but at eye watering price (i can almost buy from US shop and import it myself cheaper).
KMT doesn't seem to have replacement blades available which is a bit of a turn off.
You addressed the Veritas locking screw coming loose. Does that screw interface with the depth adjuster thread (concern over damage) or a plate on the blade holder?
Is there any noticeable difference in backlash / blade movement between the planes? You did mention KMT has most solid blade holding.
Do you find yourself using the different irons often?
Again. Great video!
Thank you! You are correct none are perfect haha
I only had issued with the blade lock on the veritas when I was being too rough with it or trying to be tough and take a deep pass. It doesn't interfere with the depth screw. It pinches the iron onto a v groove plate. So maybe ppl messed that up? I'll have to check mine haha
Backlash/movement wise I would say that KM has the least, then LN, BD, Veritas, Stanley. But... it really depends on how heavy of a cut your taking. Alot of ppl are ROUGH with router planes haha I like how the veritas moves because thay movement tells me I'm being too rough and I back off and take a lighter pass.
I change irons ALL THE TIME haha I mean if you have 5 boards with 3/8 groves your gonna use the same iron for all that, but I do alot of projects with different sizes, weird inlays, etc. So I'm swapping then out alot. Ppl use chisels where I use the router cus I prefer it over chisels. Have more control and precision for me :)
I hope that help! Thank you again!!
@Bat Cave Creations thankyou for the detailed timely reply!
I'm a very green hobbyist but value good design and execution - it makes the experience a joy. Your video has nudged me towards the Veritas option.
It has been very hard to find good information on tools (and impossible to lay hands on them) prior to purchase.
It surprises me that simple things like squareness and flatness and backlash aren't advertised or evaluated as they are with power tools or other items. Also assessment of features that impact usability like blade alignment you noted in your shoulder plane video.
Veritas, Stanley and Luban are most accessible here, but can import Clifton, Woodriver and Lie Nielsen at a pinch. Useful to have the information before committing to an import ;)
Happy to help!! I started put where you are too without enough info so I'm trying to be a RUclipsr that changes thay :)
How do you like Clifton? Never got to try one but I hear they are better than LN
@Bat Cave Creations to give context I am only a few months into this journey and the only plane I own is a 40 year old Stanley workman #4. It was neither flat nor square but I've now (after lots of youtube) tuned it to be an acceptable smoother. I have a number of veritas accessories (making gauges, honing guides etc.) that I'm very impressed with.
Money isn't really an issue, but by the same token I appreciate quality and value of key features over gold plating and polish.
I've seen a Clifton 5 1/2 on display and they do look and feel superb. Compared to the stanley Bailey next to it the stanley was truly a cheap toy. I have no experience with the Clifton performance in use and wanted more information before pulling the trigger on that occasion.
I'm about to start a project to build a dresser for my daughter. In the next week or so I'd like to order a jack plane (62 or 5 1/2), router plane, shoulder plane and combination plane. I've been researching these for some weeks. I don't actually need the tools for the job, but it is fun to hunt for tools and play with new toys.
If I take the jack as an example, the Veritas LA is AU 469 delivered and Luban is AU 299 delivered.
For standards, the Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 is AU 899 + shipping, Clifton is AU 750 Delivered and woodriver (#5 only) AU 535 delivered.
I'm leaning towards the Veritas LA but the Clifton 5 1/2 std had been a strong #2 consideration.
Similarly for medium shoulder planes it is Clifton AU 485 delivered, veritas AU 379 delivered and luban AU199 delivered. I'm again leaning towards Veritas as a better balance of quality, features and price however there are no direct comparison reviews out there for these models.
@Morgan James ah ok I get you, those are huge price differences there. Are you in Can I Have It on Facebook we have many sellers willing to ship internationally. Buying used with same you some money and maybe bundle a shipment and get 1 big instead of all these seperate shipments.
I have heard good and bad about Luban, it's Woodriver from what I hear just under a different name.
Clifton won't disappoint and neither will veritas. Both make quality tools. I have not tried Clifton but what I hear is that it's better than veritas and LN. But veritas jointery/specialty planes have been taking the cake for me. Where LN benchplanes are winning so check the specs of Clifton and see what features the offer and weigh that against the price compared to veritas.
There is a guy in the group that actually lives in Australia and has a huge tool company there but travels to the US to get tools. This is his site and that may help too if you are open to used tools: www.toolexchange.com.au/
Another great video, thank you. 🇦🇺👴🏻
Wow I learned things awesome!
That's alot comming from you! Thank you!
You should look at the Paul Sellers kit too.
I deff want to! I would love you make my own one day!
Looking forward to more videos. You make very concise, to the point content I wish was around when I was making decisions about tools in question. As far router planes go, since I had no mid priced option I went full hobo-woodworker and made one those with a blade made from an allen key, somehow, it still works. However, when doing larger dadoes (or dados? no idea) in soft wood, I get problems with tear out. Right now I am building a wall shelf with dovetailed sides and mortised and dadoed inner shelves. I cut the sides of the dadoes with a saw and a chisel, but to get a flat bottom I eventually went with electric router after all. Also, would love to have a plough plane, but they are too expensive considering how sparingly I would use them.
Thank you!!!
User made routers are awesome I wanna make one one day. Did you try putting a shallower or steeper angle on the cutter? Also, are you in Can I Have It on FB sometimes you can get a plow plane for a pretty good price. Usually better than ebay lol
@@BatCaveCreations No, I live in central Europe (the narex chisels, thats us). Used hand tool market for planes is virtually non exist around here, so finding stuff that works and which brands to buy was quite a workout at first.
Ah deff check the group out we have many sellers that ship international and there is another group called international buggies or something like that, that helps ppl ship international for cheap. If you aren't in a hurry haha
@@BatCaveCreations I will. I pretty much have all the planes I need. I'm lucky enough that we make dirt cheap wooden planes. They take some work to set up and maintain, but by far they are my most favourite users.
I just got a transitional I wanna try but other than that never tried wooden planes. You like they more than metal?
are the holes on the depth stop knobs threaded? they look kinda like they should have a tiny locking screw. I don't have one so I don't know but it would make sense.
No I guess they are there so you use like 2 small Allen keys and pinch then together to tighten but I upgraded to the new version so it's alot better now!
When you have everything locked in is their usually a little slop in the blade mechanism if you try to move it around? Not much, but enough to hear a little click if you know what I mean.
For the veritas, no. I lock the blade down it's solid. If you are taking to heavy of a shaving tho it can move. :/
If you mean on the veritas when advancing or retracting the iron, YES! And it gets me every so offten lol the slot in the iron is a little bigger than the depth adjust wheel.
@@BatCaveCreations I meant when it is locked. The mechanism on the KM rotates left and right when you look down from the top. It looks like the cutting edge doesn't move up or down from the cutting plane, so that is good. When you say the Veritas moves taking a heavy shaving do you mean depth or left-right like mine?
@@SaintFredrocks depth it tilts down. I can't help with the KM I borrowed that one for the video :(
@@BatCaveCreations I know you borrowed it, but you have helped. I am knew to planes of any sort, so I wondered if they all moved some. I think I would rather a little left right than up down motion, but none would be even better.
Have you seen any of the Cowryman router planes? I know you like them, so I thought I would let you know if you haven't.
@SaintFredrocks oh ok! They really shouldn't move at all when locked down unless your being aggressive or there is an error with the plane
That other brand is cool too! Haven't tried it yet but it's a bit like a witches tooth router. A population vintage style
On the Veritas stop issue - did I see set screw holes on those 2 collars? Are those holes threaded?
No they aren't :( someone told me tho that the depth stop style I have is old and they make a better one now
They must have listened to your video: the KM-17 PRO has a depth stop for about $7 more.
Haha thats awesome! Stinks it's and upcharge but I'm glad they offer one!
It is only $167 right now, and you can probably get a coupon. I was looking at it yesterday, and they gave me $50 worth of coupons for creating an account saving me $15 on this. I really don't see how the Veritas is better other than the cutter selection and of course you don't like the cutter removal.
You get the two cutters with the plane plus they sell a kit now with five smaller cutters for $55 and the Katz Moses site says they will be offering a larger variety of individual cutters soon. I saw in another review that the way they made the frame on the KM-17 makes it more rust resistant than the Veritas. I have been on the fence between the KM and Veritas, but with the quality of the tool, the CAM lock depth stop and the price, I think I will be buying the KM-17 Pro with seven cutters shipped for $206 this week@@BatCaveCreations
Lee Valley has not manufactured that style of depth stop on their large router plane for quite a few years.
The current depth stop is rock solid.
It was recognized early on with the Veritas that the depth stop was deficient and a number of people came up with solutions to add a LN style depth to the Veritas.
To state that the design of the depth stop is a deficiency of the Veritas router plane as currently manufactured is incorrect.
Are the sides of the blades supposed to be parallel to each other? I have been going through a nightmare trying to sharpen the main blade for the KM-17. The bevel was cut at an angle as well as being convex. The base was convex too, and the edges are not parallel to each other or perpendicular to the cutting edge. EDIT: I contacted the company that makes the plane, and they apologized and sent me a new blade the next day no charge and no problems.
Ouch that stinks I'm sorry but technically they don't need to be parallel unless you are cutting stopped grooves and it comes to a 90* stop. If that makes sense .
Leave it as is and let the angle catch up to 90 over time
For the convex as long as it's cutting flat your fine but if it's cutting at a convex thay isn't good :/
Mainly it just need to cut glad groves if it's heavy on one side or not flat it's not good. See if they will replace it! Or return it and get veritas hahah
@@BatCaveCreations it didn't want to cut anything. The way it was when you looked at the cutting edge from the front it looked like it was starting to say oh. I wasn't sure about the sides, so I thought I'd ask. That bevel was ridiculous. I put in a request for a new blade before I posted above. The rest of the plane looks really nice and everyone seems to really like it, so I figure I'll be happy with a new blade.
@@SaintFredrocks oh sorry I thought you meant the bottom of the plane wasn't flat :(
I'm with you now hopefully they get you a new blade and you get the plane to work! I LOVE the router plane. It does alot but I also find excuses to use it haha
@@BatCaveCreations I don't know why I didn't before, but I was just using the pointy blade, and this thing works great. I am really looking forward to getting that new blade.
It's funny. It seems like every time I sharpen something for the first time there is a problem. The last time, oddly enough, I was using my Veritas sharpening jig mk ii whatever for the first time sharpening my Narex chisels for the first time. I kept getting a crooked bevel no matter what I did. It turns out the roller mechanism from Veritas was bad. It doesn't seem to matter where things are made, there are always a few lemons in the batch.
Have a good one, and thanks for getting back to me on this. I have been woodworking for a long time, but I am just learning about most of the hand tools, so it is nice to be able to ask someone that knows what they are doing. What part of WPa are you from? I'm from Indiana, Pa originally.
@SaintFredrocks 100% there are always lemons! It happens it all depends on how the company handles it.
I am originally from Califormia. Now I life near Kittanning, PA. Not to far from Indiana!
Veritas only sells the router as a closed throat. I also have the Veritas. I end up using the depth adjuster as a rough estimate and fine tune with a depth gauge.
Thank you and smart move! Do you have the old style depth too? I am emailing LV to see if I can get the new style
@@BatCaveCreations I have the new style. It works well, but if you aren't paying attention and keep trying to turn down the depth adjuster, the stop will still budge. Not as much as what you showed though
Ah ok thank you! Imma do a short showing both
@@BatCaveCreations Looking forward to watching it!
Hey, does anybody know if the Veritas and the kat Moses blades are the same?
I dont think so but someone else may provide a more confident answer lol
No review on the Compass Tools or Paul Sellers kits?
Never heard of compass tools and I couldn't get my hands on a Paul Sellers one :(
@@BatCaveCreationscompass rose is Rex Kreuger’s brand. He makes a kit as well but a different style than Paul. Both look nice.
@@joegiotta7580 thank you! I will have to check those out, sorry i missed this reply!
I’ve got the KM Tools router plane and the single biggest issue. The only reason I’m keeping it, I’ve seen a instagram story from Jonathon where they were shown in the background and he said “oh don’t look at those” so it would seem like they’re coming. The knobs aren’t nearly as smooth as the Veritas so that was a little disappointing.
What was in the background? And what was the biggest issue?
@@BatCaveCreations sorry, that was totally unclear. The additional blades that hopefully will become available. Their lack of availability at launch was my biggest issue
Lol no worries! Ah ok so they do have more features comming out. I wander if it's gonna be the same style or if they found a way around it
@@BatCaveCreations wish I knew. They were only shown for a split second. I just hope they passed testing. It’s definitely been a while so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hopefully they do! I mean technically you could buy the veritas 1/2 and modify to size?
Do I see grub screws on the Veritas depth stop? Might those lock the depth stop?
no they are just holes but...... i wonder if grub screws should be in there hahaha
@@BatCaveCreations are the holes threaded?
@Devin Teske no :( I was told I have the old style depth stop tho and on the new version it's 100x better. I em LV to see if I can buy the new version without buying the whole plane haha
The holes are there to allow you to insert small rods (small Allen keys) and then tighten the two collars against each other. The rods will give you more purcase to tighten them. Two nuts that are tightened against each other like this won't move and will function as a rock solid depth stop.
Makes 100% sense I just never thought about doing that haha thank you!!!
I found this video very informative. On the Veritas depth stop, I think I saw two set screws in each stop. If so, these could be locked with an allen wrench and they will not move.
Thank you! And your right there are holes for that but veritas made an upgraded one so I just got one of those. Don't wanna have to use to amen keys to tighten those every time I need to ahhaa
KM router is only similar to Veritas with base and knobs. How the blade is held to the body is completely different. I wouldn't call it's a copy of Veritas.
Bench Dog seems to be an exact copy of LN, based on Rob Cosman's review. It seems to be ok quality, and quite cheaper than LN.
LN is only similar to Stanley No 71 with base and knobs. How the blade is held to the body is completely different. Blade adjustment is the same.
Stanley No 71 has several iterations. You showed 2 earlier models. Veritas is actually very similar to newer Stanley No 71 in terms of how the blade is held to the body and how blade is adjusted. A collar is holding the blade to the body, and blade can be removed about the same way as on Veritas. I never used the front foot on No 71 as depth stop. It's quite wide comparing to all the blades you can fit on a No 71. I only use it as front support, and I usually do not have that assembly on it at all. Stanley 71-1/2 is the close throat version.
The simplified copy chain is, LN copied Stanley's body and blade adjustment. Bench Dog copied LN almost completely. Veritas copied Stanley's blade retension and adjustment. KM copied Veritas' body. LN, Veritas and KM both have their innovations in this topic.
Last thing to note is KM didn't develope this router plane. It's a rebranded Hongdui one.
Thank you. This is great info to add. I appreciate you taking the time! It helped me and will deff help others!
The Stanley 71 1/2 has a closed throat. I’ve enjoyed working with it so far.
Thank you! I don't think I've ever held a closed throat one. Only the 71s. Any other differences between the 2 or just open vs closed throat?
Moses for the win. In done with wobbly planes if it's the most solid than I have the most confidence in it being the last one I ever have to buy. Also it's not hard to tap a a little piece of metal to mak ed your own cutters. With the ad tdd anley types making your own specialty cutters would be sookoo much more work I wouldn't even go there. But tapping finer a screw and filing 3 lines, I couls bnb do that if i had to which I'd call a major plus. Also the depth readout I sa accurate and clear.
The KM router plane pro version provides a depth stop. In my opinion it is a better choice than the Veritas, especially it improves on the Veritas depth stop. Excellent build and quality and I believe slightly cheaper than Veritas.