A 3 Pin Fixture That Does All The Work -- You'll Enjoy This One !!
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- With a basic understanding of how chamfered surfaces behave on the end of a rod, fixture design can be simple and effective for locating holes and features on an ellipse. This one is worth watching.
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When a kid in class asks, why do we need to know math? Show him any of Joe's videos. This trade is so underrated.
This isn't really math right here. This is just basics. What these kids need to do at an early age and even those at any age that wants to learn, is to study GEOMETRY more than anything else. Of course knowing Algebra 1st. Sliding into TRIGONOMETRY will be much easier for those who have the the basics down 1st....Just my thought as a user of all these. Note: CALCULUS is another that should be taught early on...
As I've heard many mathematicians say "maths is for the lazy. You don't figure out how to solve every problem one by one, you figure out how to solve ALL problems the same way." And do you know, they're right. The amount of formula that you see repeated in the industry is amazing!
@@wildin13 Yeap, the repeatability is called the "canned functions". Great example is Mastercam and on just about every HAAS machine the functions are right there for you. That's why I LOVE both worlds of machining. One for production and the other for making one offs and to make sure it gets into production...Smile, it's All great Stuff 👍.
Unfortunately I have found most to teachers teaching trigonometry are doing it under sufferance and have no idea of its practical application or how to teach it and pass on their lack of knowledge.
This is shop arithmetic.
Math is probably one of the most important subjects of all subjects.
At 7:20, I would have sworn that base plate was a piece of scrap particle board with a white laminate. Maybe from an old kitchen cabinet. ;-)
So it wasn't just me, thinking the same
Coincidentally, I happen to have a garage full of scrap cabinets. freshly pulled. Yay :(
The thing about a lot of these wonderful lessons. Is that once you see them, they really make sense. But the amount of thought and trial and error by the first few people that figured the stuff out was often very high. So keeping these techniques alive, and sharing them with others is a huge help to everyone.
There are a few people who figure out this stuff as a matter of course. We call them geniuses.
You had to calculate where your pins were going to be located based on the rod’s diameter/radius? Correct?
Joe, I love the maths as used in machining.
Thank you for being one of the very few who present practical applications that inspire us to relearn, retain and use maths in our setups.
Definitely a mental toolbox tool. I really enjoy watching you bring analytical geometry and trig to life. As always! Very well done.
Luv it…”mental toolbox”….mine has lots of rust😳😂😂…tks for sharing
Hi Chuck. I'm with you on the rust content. Stay well bud.
I did a lot of Gage making/ inspection with compound angles and tooling balls. It sure is easy to get bogged down in math and all the other "little" details! Good stuff!
Food for my brain Joe. I took trig 65 years ago and don’t use it enough even though calculators make trig really easy. Thanks for the stretching exercise. Cheers, Will
As someone who cannot afford all the cool tools you have my method would be to chuck the cylinder up in my ancient Craigslist purchased lathe, drill a small hole in the center just slightly deeper than the depth of the slope I plan to mill on the face, mill it leaving a little dimple of the drill hole visible which will now be in the center of the ellipse then clamp it in my cheapie Chinese drill press at 30 degrees and using the dimple as a guide drill my final hole. Maybe I am over simplifying but us poor folk with meager incomes living off the grid in the desert have to improvise.
Dumb farmer solution, as my Dad would say. There’s always more than one way to skin a cat. Respect.👍🏼 Btw, also a “ dumb “ farmer...
That would work!
Thank you Joe for another extremely valuable lesson. And I truly appreciate the simple tips like ‘set up the height of the table for your longest tool’. Seeing all of this in action just burns it home 👍👍😎👍👍
👍 any way you could show how you figured out the pin locations?
I’m thinking I would mill a shelf on the lower portion of the jig so the angle block is applying the upward force from the jig and not the vise bed. That might make the clamping a little easier to deal with.
Joe, please buy a microphone. Your videos are so great in terms of content, but the quality can be improved significantly with some small changes. SHARPEN THOSE VIDEO EDITING TOOL BITS!!
Great video! It's a pretty small thing, but I'd love to see an example of the small toe clamp setup you say you'd use at 11:03 to rotate into place to secure the part. You explain it more at the end of the video, but it's the mechanics of how you would design it to clamp the part in (and overcome concerns of friction of the clamp being stronger than the friction of the part against the reference pin and not allowing it to properly seat/nest!) that I'd find most valuable. You did say a toe clamp, so a wedge? But you also mentioned rotating it into place, so a cam/eccentric? Or Mitee-Bites or similar? So many choices!
eccentric washer with a small machine through it. Rotate the washer so it pushes the part, lock the screw.
Love watching you solve these things!
Two questions:
When you located the holes, you chucked each tool and moved it to the three locations, then switched tools, etc. Is there less chance for error, even with a DRO, to do all three operations at each location before moving to the next? I know you know what you are doing, I’m just curious.
Second, I’m guessing that the condition of the bottom face of the plate is irrelevant because the angle block is establishing the angle relative to the table.
Its a 50/50 on how you approach this. if you know and trust your machine, moving 3 times in close proximity and only changing tools 3 times can be quicker. If a quill depth stop is involved, there is no guarantee it will be the same for all 3 tools, so keep that in mind. But, staying on location for all operations is also a very good practice. Your choice. As for the fixture, starting with a piece of material you know is square is important. If you're unsure, use the stationary jaw as your reference plane and make sure the plate seats on that. A parallel plate is best too.
Absolutely fucking boom. You don't need my comment to affirm your excellence, but I hope you hear how much we appreciate your effort. Thank you for everything you do.
Thanks for the comment. Glad to do it.
I don't know what to say,except thanks for your efforts we appreciate them🤗😎🤗😎
Nice approach Joe. How would you approach this if the chamfered/ angled face of the pin had variation to it? The fixturing approach relies on that angle being 30 degrees. If it had significant variation, that would impact your overall length & drilled hole Center position.
Are you planning to build a combustion engine ?
Excellent as per usual Joe.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and practical experience with us. I learn a lot from your videos. Keep it up and I appreciate you Joe!
Another great video, thanks Joe. A simple solution to a difficult problem.
Hey Joe,
One of your favorite expressions, "that's all I've got", as always, seems wildly understated. Thanks once again Joe.
what did you mean by Sorry Bill ?
Another excellent video that shows a solution to a seemingly simple task. :)
Another Great video, JoePie. Please keep them coming!
lol Rick on the whiteboard = fire
Many thanks for the tips.
These are the things that separate the machinists from the button pushers.
As much as I agree with your comment, I've turned many button pushers into top notch machinists. Its a matter of the individual and how bad they want to learn. Pushing a button on a CNC is a great way to get your foot in the door.
I have been trying to self study machining from my fathers shop he gun smithed in I'm starting to get a clue about the lathe . I'm in Galveston county Texas This set up is genius I look forward to learning a lot from you I subbed immediately.
Welcome aboard. Feel free to ask questions.
Wouldn't there be two points that the 30 degree angle would come into view each being 180 degrees apart?
Technically correct. Yes When rolling the cylinder, that end face will line up perpendicular, twice.
Thanks Joe! Yep, gave me a headache, but i got it! Amazing!
Always a treat to see you my friend. You always have something interesting to come by for an old, retired machinist to pass the time remembering when. 3 pin set ups are such a great way to find that spot like here or to straighten out a bend and a few other setups I can think of. They are inherently strong gripping as well. That was great !
Thanks for the comment.
This seems like an overly complicated way of finding the center.
It's not only to find a centre point, it could be used to find any nominated point or points on an angled face, and that determines when that face is correctly aligned, so the axis of the ellipse ( the cut face of the original circle) is in a set alignment.
Not being sarcastic, but if you can share an easier repeatable method, please do.
You are such a gentleman for sharing your knowledge. Thank you for the great ideas!
My pleasure!
I learn something new every time I watch your videos. Thanks Joe, love your videos.
Another Professor Pie lesson. Very nice. Thank you sir.
Outstanding Joe!
Yet another outstanding video Joe. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!
Hi Guy. Thanks for checking in.
It’s a keeper.
It definitely solved the problem.
Thanks again, I always learn something when your on
Glad to help.
throw top and bottom pins on same vertical line.
replace middle/front one with a cam, couple of extra holes for more range.
and you got repeatable and adjustable angle. and where that top pin clocks to in relation to the face...
Just a quick question, and I'm sorry I'm still learning, how much can I take out with my reamers, generally?
I'm not sure I understand your question.
@@joepie221 sorry it auto corrected to readers! My reamer! I was kinda amazed at how much your reamer took out of the hole
@@Goesinya69 At 1/4", I usually allow 1/64 undersize for the pilot drill. Smaller holes I leave less.
@@joepie221 ok, thank you very much! Love your videos. I've learned a lot
Never be sorry for learning!
Another awesome lesson! Thank you Sir!
Glad you liked it!
just saw this, very informational. Never got this information when I was interning. Now I just need to match up my math, thanks for sharing!
What is your DTI setup on the mill? Sure would like to see how it's attached to the head stock.
That's a spindle mount indicator holder. They're pretty common. The original was called an indicol universal indicator holder. I don't know who made it originally but the brand name tool is made by janesville tool company. And of course there are countless imitations to be found. I was going to make one myself for locating on the rotary table but then I got the blake co-axial idicator fixed. Now that's a nice one- a real time saver.
Its called an indicol and attaches with a nylon tipped thumbscrew.
Great stuff as always Joe! This channel is a gold mine. 👍
Glad you enjoy it! Thank you for your continued positive comments.
I would really like to know the method of calculating the pin locations on the jig for different rod diameters or angles for those who do not use CAD
I can do that.
Uh, yeah your gonna need to go to another machine shop. Just kidding LOL. Good video.
Super handy and could easily be laid put in CAD to get exact hole locations. Still a handy method with CNC even.
Pretty tricky laying it out without CAD !
@@MidEngineering Yeah my math brain doesn't have the juice otherwise.
One 3 Pin Fixture to rule them all.....
The Rick and Morty sketch in the corner of the board makes me happy
My son drew that. I don't have the heart to erase it.
@@joepie221 good on ya 😁
I struggled with Trig and Geometry as taught in school until I had to use it for part layout and C&C programs on the 70s when a simple calculator was a big deal
Same here. I did not care about math in school. Then I became a machinist. Now I just think in geometry.
Math, as taught out of context with practical application, is difficult to absorb.
I appreciate this so much! Thank you Joe!!!
2:52
“If you knew…”
“I’ll tell you…”
😂😂😂😂😂
❤❤❤❤❤
very cool fixture, thanks
I don't know if I'll ever use this, but if I need it I'll be glad I learned it!
All you need to do is remember the concept.
So easy when you know how Joe! Thank you for showing us thicko's lol simple when you really think of it, but hey i was brought up in .Britain when they thought calculus, trig and all that wasn't necessary, and used "Modern Maths" so we were not taught any of the important stuff, but taught all sorts of other crap Like matricies that I have never EVER used since I took GCE O Level Maths in 1970 lol
I also used small pipes in my air guns, but had to make them OHSA compliant. The company was VERY strict on OHSA rules and we could be written up if we were not compliant. So, all I had to do was drill a small cross hole at the end of the pipe all the way through both sides of the pipe, VEE ARE VATCHING YOU VERY CLOSELY NOW !!!!!! take care. Your coke can also would be a write up for several reasons, No MSDS label being one of them. again, take care.
Hi Joe, Regarding the initial setup using a Vblock to hold the pin while cutting the ellipse, I've been cautioned by another highly experienced tool and die maker, to NOT put too much clamping pressure on a Vblock (via the round part, vise jaw, etc.). His guidance stems from having witnessed failure of the block in similar clamping arrangements...
Do you know of a good way to avoid applying 'too much' (clamping) pressure? Developing this 'feel' is always a challenge for the newbie (personal perspective only), without having a frame of reference. :) I've not yet split a Vblock, but developing the 'feel' without taking it to point of failure can be a challenge. Thanks for this informative video.
This is an interesting question. Assuming your V block is hardened and ground try this. Before applying pressure measure (mike) the width of the block at the open end. Apply pressure to the round part until the width begins to increase. Stop pressure at this point. This should give you a good feel for how much pressure to apply to a V block of a given size.
Another gem Joe... trig once more showing its value. Thank you.
You can't avoid it.
One thing I couldn’t grasp, you must make one of those fixtures for every part you’re making? Because you mention that, once the part is seated and rotates, the top pin IS on the center of that face. Did I misunderstand you?
Thank you very much!
On... Making fixture for each part. Roughly speaking. Yes.
In this case, just being able to find that angled face for drilling is already a big challenge.
In this instance, there is just 1 feature on the angled face, so we can get away more simple setup.
BTW. This is what tool makers do.
Very nice application for a one-off, multiple variations or a big run. Not too complicated, relatively easy to apply. Thanks for another gem to put into the mental toolbox.
I've watched so many of your videos, I've only commented a couple times. I just wanted to say every video of yours I've seen has raised the bar. Wish I could do a tenth of what you show in your videos. Always good stuff. I hope to retire in a few years. You'll be the driving inspiration in my machining hobby.
Long as your top surface is level....
Zeroed out and the drill is
Centered on the work piece the drill bit will go in and come out the same spot no matter...
Blind hole r not...Right????? And yes I
Absolutely understand what he is doing here....his jig keeps the price rigged
Enough so it stays level and can drill though without pushing it down
R canting 1 way r the other..
his set-up kept his hole probably as perfect as one could get it....
G'Day Joe, Thank You for this info, but also for some other great advice, that I gleaned form one of your other video's. Best regards Johno (Australia)
6:40 How is your machine so quiet while cutting? If I did this cut on my mill it would moan and groan even just taking a couple thou off. What am I doing wrong!? I have a Kurt vise and I usually lock the gibs before a cut.
Years ago I had to design something similar. I had 4 pins to locate my part in X axis, and a stop pin to locate the part in Y axis. The closest 2 pins to the Y axis stop pin also served as stop pins left & right. ( 5 pins on the base of aluminum 1.5" x 1.5" x 8" ) Plus a locating pivot hole on the hand tool ( knob )and a pin on this tool that was used to perform operation 1 & 2. Pivot hole drops onto stop pin Y. The part I was making was a needle rod that you solder tattoo needles to, and the needle rod had to have an eyelet on the end ( centered on the rod ) which was what all these pins were set up to do. Put the tool on left and bend the rod right till it stops at top X pin, then lift and move the tool to the other side of the rod and bend it left till it stops at top X pin, wrapping it around the stop pin. The pin on the bending tool ( knob ) also had to have a larger offset radius on it than the diameter of the pin. The diameter of the bending pin was to do the 1st bend & when you lift it up and set it down on the other side of the rod, it was located at the start of the larger diameter offset radius on the bending pin.
It would really blow my mind to see you make a video of making this needle rod again. I certainly would not attempt to do this again, I am too old. I don't remember the length, eyelet hole size or diameter but I do remember it was 316 stainless. I had no part or blueprints to start with. Customer just said what size eyelet and how long overall part needed to be and handed me some 316 stainless straight rods. Rod diameter might be .8mm / .031" x 6" long, eyelet .200"
The base also had 2 milled out pockets at the bottom so it can me set into a vise to do the bending. All pins are standard .250" dowel pins. Not sure but I seem to remember the larger radius being close to 1"
If you can recreate this, much explanation is needed as to why a larger diameter radius is needed to perform the 2nd bend. I am surprised how fast I did this the 1st time and would not attempt it again.
Got off track... if you had to tread
The hole and get to tighten up but
Had to have the pin face a certain direction how
Would one go bout threading it perfectly????
Anyone????
For me, almost every vid of yours has the ah-ha moment. For this vid it was 2:30. The gotcha was when you opened the issue by describing it in in 3-d. Reduce the 3-d problem to 2-d and the solution is obvious.
Can you do a video on how to dial a insert drill on a cnc lathe. Dialing x is not much of a problem but at my work they also dial the y axis and I'm having trouble understanding how to do that. It would be much appreciated
Dear Joe,
thank you very much for posting this video. I am not sure when I will need this but along with the video showing how to make an angle block I have mentally stored it for future use. Thank you.
Mind boggling calculations and setups become easy...common sense...once you know how. Thanks for educating us.
Glad someone ask this question, if I now run into these issue, your explaining and showing how to approach it will come in handy.
Thank you for taking the time to educate us. It is appropriated.
Got confused from all the pin talk....
Excellent, Joe. After all these years, I would have taken longer on the setup for a single cut and bore than you took in making the jig. Truly good info. Thanks!
Oh, and I have a T-shirt just like the one you are wearing in the vid. :)
Dean
You could literally machine that in a jig like that, its so secure
Absolutely.
Happy Sunday Joe....best wishes from Central Florida.....Paul
Thanks for the visit Paul. happy Sunday back at ya.
Hi Joe, I often have to drill similar holes in a small part I make. Like the idea of using the pin. Mine are not high precision, till now I have used a level on the bevel face and rotated till level, but will look at using a pin fixture. You constantly prove we are never to old to learn. Keep up the great work.
Hey, I know you fixed your mill spindle , what was wrong with it,
The plastic spline bushings around the rear vari drive pulley shaft were shot..
@@joepie221 appreciate the reply,
Colvin and Stanley... old school simplicity.
Would a V in the back plate allow a stronger grip? The sideways depth it holds the part at would have to be taken into account though...
Yes. 3 linear tangent areas of contact are certainly stronger.
That's one for the memory banks !
Very applicable once you grasp the concept.
I took Trig and Elementary Analysis as well as two Geometry classes during my last two years of High School. It took a long time before I felt like they were useful classes. Your videos always confirm it.
Like the air in your lungs if you are a machinist.
Another sharing of a clever solution. Sharing knowledge is priceless. Thank you.
thanks for your continued comments. Much appreciated.
good video joe
Truly appreciate your lessons like these. Layout, fixtures, & methods are really helpful to us mere mortals! Thanks Joe!
Glad you like them!
I love fixturing and you are one of the only guys covering the topic. Thanks Joe.
You might not think this would help a wood guy like me but I just made a dog gate with mortise and tenons on slats at 30 degree angles and this would have been immensely helpful. Great info!
Save it for next time.
My real name is Michael McCluskey. I subscribed back when you were making the model steam engine.
Greetings Michael. I'm glad you enjoy the videos and thanks for the sub.
I'm lost and I'm never being found.....
Thanks anyway😞
Wherever you end up, thats where you'll be. Look there first.
thank you Joe ... another great learning experience....
Yep, that works, no problem. I spent a lot of years in Aerospace tooling (Jig and fixture, retired now) and my way of looking at the problem is from a production point of view with emphasis on idiot proofing tooling. My approach would have been to machine a block to register on the fixed jaw of the vise and it would have a hole bored at the required 30 deg from the spindle axis. The upper Z face of the block would be normal to the axis of the bored hole. Make a register block to index off the face of the fixture block to index your pin to normal. A thumb screw to hold your part once indexed with your backup block also moveable and lockable. The side of the block could be cut to allow the vise to transfer clamping pressure to the part. Now when you load your part, the face of the pin is always rotated normal to the top plane, properly indexed to Z and backed up by the back up block to prevent movement. All your geometry would be built into the fixture to remove as much "thinking" as possible from the operator. Again, my perspective is from a production point of view not a one off. This setup would also ignore any rounding caused to the edge of the part due to deburring.
The only way to idiot proof any production fixture is to take the human out of the equation.. I've done this for 47 years for the aerospace, semi-conductor and medical fields and I've seen mishaps that left me baffled.
@@joepie221 AMEN! The better job we do of making something idiot proof, they only make bigger idiots!!!! LOL
The master of his trade proves it again. Things I should of been tough in school was never shown like this. The best thing is I found the teacher on you tube that I wished I had when I was in school.
Quite a compliment. thanks.
I have to disagree with the claim of very accurate measurement at 3:20, the cosine error in your measurement will cause problems especially with a larger size pin that is used in your measurement
I respectfully disagree. The indicator isn't measuring anything. Its indicating relative position. The zero on the dial is true to a .125 centerline location. Cosine error would also be greater if the needle was at a more extreme angle. I honestly don't believe cosine error potential is a factor here.
Thank you! This is perfectly what I have to build for quick and reliable length measurement of angled pins. I was thinking way too complicated.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank You
Another great Joe Pie vid..... I often wonder if there are there any books out there that have lots of these fixture ideas and concepts in them that one could use as a go to reference.