REALISTIC WWII Bomber Raids vs 1960/70s IADS SAM Network (WarGames 5b) | DCS
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- 0:00 Overview
2:59 Details
6:49 Predictions
8:07 High Level FIGHT!
24:57 Low Level FIGHT!
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Kortana is doing a great job not only flying, but also researching and modeling units for these scenarios. Very impressive. Bravo!!
😊
Cap you make me smile (occasionally I'll even laugh outloud lol). " Now with Added Kortana" is obviously a major selling point (with good reason). I hope you're paying our good lady well? If not please give her a promotion.
She’s good. Damn good
@@emanuelrivera7226 Very true.
Thx Mark, trying to!
Kortana's not just an excellent mirage pilot, she also knows how to make a damn good mission. Keep up the awesome work GR 💜
🙂
@@jester1663 -- Spoken like someone who didn't watch the video.
@@jester1663 ummm what
@@jester1663 you couldn’t even hold this chicks jock strap my friend
Once again, the damage modeling in DCS needs major work. Have you ever seen the old army footage of Nike-Hercules testing against drone B-17s? Spoiler - the B-17 didn't keep flying with only a few hundred of holes in it! Instead, a few crucial parts of the airframe came loose with lots of them on fire... Any one of these old Soviet SAMS detonating near a B17 would result in total obliteration. I know B17s were tough, but the DCS models are obviously made of Stalinium!
Plz link footage :)
@@grimreapers I think I found it: ruclips.net/video/D_tSIlMdZok/видео.html
I agree, this looks a lot different than in DCS, although I think the Nike has a much bigger warhead than most modern missiles.
@@grimreapers ruclips.net/video/D_tSIlMdZok/видео.html
Pretty high quality footage ngl.
It's more that non-WWII weapons haven't been updated to work with the new WWII damage model.
Establishing air defence perimeters is very hard. It takes a lot of training. I served as a SAM battery officer in the Royal Artillery. It is a highly complex process.
That is one thing about the B-17, it was an incredibly tough aircraft. You could lose huge portions of the plane, and she would keep flying. They did suffer pretty large losses, but they where able to keep the pressure up
Watch Memphis Belle. You probably have.
That massive wing is what allowed it to fly with damage other aircraft couldn't handle.
This was so cool!
Thank you Kortana and Cap and rest of the guys!
That plane screaming in pain will live with me forever.
I don't wanna die!
This is probably why the NATO doctrine until the Gulf War was low level interdiction and bombing. Try it in a 70s or 80s era jet designed for that role and see what happens.
"".. never got bored of a bomber formation that big" - True but imagine first day of Linebacker II with 129 B-52 in the air. 😍
A formation of B-52s would be equal to dropping a nuke several times over.
The smoke from 129 B-52s would block out the sun.
Imagine a 1000 bomber raid ...
@@advorak8529 Late war (1944-45) raids had 600-1000 bombers + 100's of escorts
Exactly.
Thanx Kortana for the time put in to make this awesome mission. :)
"With added Kortana" - *Slams play button*
lol
Welcome back Kortana! Great video as per
Thanks! Sadly I'll have to spend a bit of time away soon (though there are a few videos with me in the queue :) )
That was exciting and fun to watch! Good job GR Great design work Kortana :)
Good to see you have your priorities right
I've been binging for the last week or so, and I just want to say, Bravo! Cap, you are a fantastic presenter! Amazing how many videos you turn out, with a very high level of quality and editing to keep the flow. I can't wait for DCS to keep adding more realism to the simulations, just so GR can do more and more crazy sims.
Thanks Sean
Thank you all, great fun was had.
God I LOVE these IADS videos! This one was one of the best GR videos for me. Watching those missiles rocket up from the surface of the Earth and tear into that bomber formation, seeing them take massive amounts of shrapnel and many just keep on truckin till they end up dropping their bombs but mostly missing their target (which for the narrative I like to think was just intense psychological stress.) This one really turned out. Bravo.
To be fair, even.with the Norden sight, area bombing was wildly inaccurate in WWII. Being miles off target wasn't unusual.
Cap your videos are starting to become battles I thought of when I was a kid 😂 Keep em coming!
Same here!
Great fun to watch! Nice job on setting up the missions--thank you all!
Fun fact: We're still giving out Purple Hearts from 1945 because we minted so damn many in preparation for the invasion of the Japanese mainland that was canceled at the last minute.
You watch Dr. Felton?
@@DiogenesOfCa No.
“Do something CJ!!”
*R2D2 screaming intensifies*
lol
B-17's are incredibly tough. I once saw one case where the whole crew and all engines were dead and on fire but the plane kept doing endless 80 knot circles at 24,000 feet. I bet the carcass could have made it back home wings level.
It's just DCS DM is a joke
@@user-qn3xu5ee3t No joke, none of the engines were running but the plane didn't lose altitude. Some AI damage models are ridiculous enough that it's not even funny anymore.
@@voradfils hey, that's historically accurate, corresponds with the documentation and you know what, find some game where the DM is better!11!111!!!
This is the best channel on RUclips. I can't believe I just discovered it !
Hi Marc!
welcome there is a lot of great content to see.
64 B-17s in a raid would be considered a very small raid.
By mid 1943 a raid would use ~200-300 bombers. Fighter escorts could not cover them beyond the Belgian border.
In early 1944 an 8th AF raid would be as many as 1,000 bombers and a similar number of fighters that could escort them to target and back (P-51s).
Wonder if you could simulate Operation Carthage - the raid on the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen?
The raid was performed with Mosquito FB.VIs flying at low level and an escort of Mustang IVs (P-51D). It was successful with the objective of destroying Gestapo records being met, but came at a high cost due to the accidental bombing of a school.
Once the Hanoi setup is built, do whatever with it but keep it in the wings because once we get the A-6, we need to see one of them make a run on SAM CITY, baby.
rgr
That was awesome. If I ever gotta lay out the air defense for a city I'm giving kortana a call.
yup
To put things in perspective, the 8th Air Force had more deaths during WWII than the Marines did in the Pacific. And Jimmy Stewart the actor, was a combat pilot in a B-24 (much better bomber than the B-17). And these guys had to do 25 missions before they could rotate....
Clark Gable was a gunner in a B-17, flying 5 missions.
The director William Wilder made a couple of documentaries in WW2.
One was "The Memphis Belle", a film about a B-17 crew,. He flew with them on several missions.
The other was "Thunderbolt", a story about a squadron flying P-47s. He filmed much of that from a B-24. He got partial deafness in one ear from flying in the B-24.
Its not exactly an accurate comparison to compare a branch of the armed forces to a large section of another. There were only 650k marines on active service at some point during the war including guys in training at the very end. Not all of these served in the 6 marine divisions that saw combat and incurred the bulk of combat deaths. A better comparison would be between those marines who actually saw combat with some regularity vs aircrews. Although even here its an apples and oranges situation. You need to count days in combat to get a better picture.
@@florinivan6907 True, it's an apples and oranges thing. We could talk about casualty rates & all, but still, the 8th AAF had a significantly high rate. There was a reason they made a movie about the first plane to actually get to 25 missions.
" You're a little more on fire than usual" LMAO 👍😅 Honestly, this was Better than most of the programs i've seen recently on T.V. Great Job..
That was cool! B-17s reached the target with minimal damage from the SAM missiles.
Well, I wouldn't say minimal damage. Those aircraft were all tore up and would need huge amounts of maintenance once they returned. But many of them weren't critically damaged even after that peppering, which I agree is really cool. :)
@@christophero55 Ok. I was comparing them being by missiles to being shotdown by German fighters. It looked like there were less planes shotdown by missiles.
Wait. Actually, I think the missiles did shoot down more than the German fighters, just a little more, but not a lot.
You're right on not labeling it as minimal damage.
Haha cap remembered to add with added kortana this time. This get the views up
lol yup
Been watching on and off since back when you used the "W" word freely... haven't watched in a while...but the New Year's Video and this one were epic. The growth on this channel is amazing, keep up the good work. My first GR video (and DCS video) was a Canyon Run and it blew my mind a bit. Its funny how I don't fly in DCS but as a fan its still enjoyable to dream up scenarios and the future possibilities. I'm gonna jump in to DCS when I can just put on the ol' VR goggles and ride one of Caps bombs down to target like Major Kong in Dr. Strangelove. Give Lt. Pickles a chin scratch for me. Cheers from U.S.!
What’s the W word your talking about??.
It is strangely how entertaining GR's stupid shit as Cap calls it can be entertaining.
The first vid I saw of GR was them bombing "help" to a ship out at sea in a storm to "save" them.
Hilariously old, but still my favourite was Cap fighting to land his warbird with no aileron control and little rudder control, coupled with fighting the torque of the prop.
ah... good times boys
w word?
@@daemonllama78 Yeah, what's the "W" word?
Great show! In my expenernce in DCS flying below the trees top makes it easy to dodge missles also when I flying a mission in the A-10A with 7 2000 pound bombs and 2 500 ones it looked like there was a bigger explostion after being shotdown when I stioll had bombs. So I think it would be worth testing.
The Fact some of them made it pass. Is outstanding
Do a 1960's raid with Tu-95's and Nike Ajax SAMs
the ajax was already nearing obsolescence by the time the late 50s came around, which is why the hercules was developed to soon afterwards, the hercules would be a better fit imo
Big boomboom!
@@hertzwave8001 Then use the Hercules! That would be sweet as well!
It worked Cap. "With added Kortana" is basically an auto click for every valued viewer.
lols
31:10 “the priority is that I (Cap) survive and keep the brand alive” 🤣
lol
28:41 "Found the Achilles heel of 60s SAMs - fly low" And that was the Tonka GR1 for you. Brilliant low level. Sucked at medium level... probably never got up to high level. But low with its TFR and under 50ft... awesome. (Yes, the Buccaneer could go lower without TFR just through aerodynamics, but they both proved the low level concept).
Having lost an Uncle to a German night fighter over Belgium in 1942, I can tell you flying a bomber at night was not hiding. He was a with the RCAF crewing a Wellington.
Thanks Kris
The Mosquito should be able to outrun the B-17s.
Yeh just took a while to get up to speed.
the bombing raids against Hanoi we had a lot of jamming and anti Radiation missiles in order to get the b-52's in there (not all did their jobs though), so keeping real to that will be nice.
thx
The Wright Double Cyclone 18-cylinder air-cooled radial is a BEAST. The engines could have entire cylinders blown off and they'd still run.
Of the 3,885 crewmen aboard B-‐17 Flying Fortresses that went down, 2,114 (54.4 %) did not survive; 866 of the 1,228 on B-‐24 Liberators (71.3%) died; 190 of the 236 (80.0%) fighter pilots who went down perished.(note only a rough estimate for a single squadron of the us air force.)(8th)
When the bombers did an unexpected turn, I was wondering if the AI had any flak avoidance smarts to make turns and altitude changes every 25 seconds or so (ruclips.net/video/yRd_AW1aZ8M/видео.html) but then they ended up flying through a cloud of flak. Maybe there aren't that many good options for flak avoidance at the end of the approach if the ground crews know what you're trying to bomb.
True, that one B-17 seemed to know it was the one targeted and then flew down and up so the missile missed.
You should have had the Mossie flying in ahead of the formation at low level to mark the target like the Pathfinders would have done irl. And if you think the B17s can take the punishment, the B24 Liberators could take even more and still fly.
Your Much More on Fire than Usual.... (Best Line EVER!)
Does Kortana have a RUclips or a twitch? I feel as though she has a bunch of useful information we could learn from!
She has a wonderful voice and personality
Yes just search Kortana
Hey Cap! Awesome episode as always. Next time you do the Birds and the Bees, suggest that someone fly a B-17 as a Big Bee, big bolls!!! Cheers!
B-17s hunting Swordfish?
B17s aren’t playable. 🙁
Rgr!
I don’t like it when Kortana gets damaged….😂
The reality is... Those bombs still dropped on a town that needed it....
Simba became a countermeasure lmao.
The fragment pattern at ~14:45...yeah, ball turret and waist gunners are spaghetti meat sauce in the back.
One of the more entertaining videos yet!
I was in ADA in the 80s, in a HAWK battery, stationed in Germany. I absolutely loved this.
Can i be that guy that everyone hates for asking for more explination the first time you mention system names etc, Im extremely interested but i find myself putting off watching videos untill im able to sit and actually pause to look up half of whats being discussed. feel like i cant be the only one especially as this awesome channel grows and pulls in more viewers that arent exactly full enthusiast. Regardless thanks for the great content !
Believe me I would LOVE to but, the more talk I do, the less people watch. It's an annoying feature of RUclips.
That was freaking epic! Love your channel
This was interesting to see. The low level fight would have been harder to pull off if proper short range AA was available, systems like the ZPU-4, ZU-23-2, or the ZSU-23-4 Shilka, all of which would have been available in this time frame.
Even with incorrect damage models (A B-17 should not have been able to tank a SA-2, let alone an SA-5), you can see the difference that modern SAMs make. The increased range, more accurate targeting, better able to handle multiple targets are major improvements over the old 60s SAMs, but that doesn’t make the older stuff not dangerous. I suspect if damage was better modeled, the B-17s would not have made or barely made it to the target.
Not sure if you've done this already, but this makes me want to see you guys simulate a WWII bombing raid. No what-ifs, no modern tech, just a massive bomber formation with escorts versus the interceptors and anti-air of the defenders
Kortana has a lovely voice... :-)
No mystery here. in vietnam US planes had a tactice call the sam box, As long as the aircraft are close enough the missile see the formation as 1 target and fleis right thru,
If the planes fly further apart at some distnce the sams will hit them
cool
Great video Cap !. Katana’s air defense systems are always hell on wheels , arse kicking grinders . She makes it a very hard gauntlet to navigate. Smart Lady. Very impressed with her details and understanding of Air defense systems . She’s a good egg! What a difference in 40 years of technology. Still deadly systems . Could you do a video that is kind of a contest of Pilots having to navigate different air defense systems . Example . Guys fly through a 50’s , 60’s 70’s ect all the way to the modern system . Fighting as a wild weasel pilots through 4 to 5 different air defense systems . Maintaining certain air restrictions depending on what defense system they are flying against . The first guy that makes it through wins. And of course you would have Katana as the designer of the gauntlet of hell.
We can probably make that happen 😈
Amazingly fun! Yes PLEASE do a vietnam version of this-- with time accurate jets! :D
will do accurate and 5th gen.
'The priority is I survive!' Selfless as ever!
lols
I'd love to see how crazy of an iasd Cortana can make using every single sam and aa gun in the game
The 60's Sam sites were why the F111 and Tornado were terrain following!
*Thanks for informative video bro!!!*
20:55 sounds like R2D2 in tons of pain....
Say what you want about B-17s, they were designed to get back home, with or, in a few cases, without crew.
The priority Cap gets out 😄, so nice of you Cap!
"I hope you get out too Simba but the priority's I survive!" lol!
lols funny
Does DCS simulate crew health for AI aircraft? I can't imagine many crew members still being alive after a hit.
Neg. Very simple plane health bar.
I wonder what the fragment size is when comparing the SA's to the 88mm flak guns. Fragment size and the speed the aircraft is flying at makes a pretty big difference when looking at damage. A relatively small hole in the fuselage at high speed will cause more damage then at low speed; wind sheer tears the skin off.
I don't know about fragment size but there was an enormous difference in explosive energy. Apparently the 88mm HE round contained 1kg or less of explosive in a ~9kg round while the SA-2 (S-75) used a 188-197kg (depending on model and sources differ) warhead containing 130kg of explosive. From FAS: "At medium and low altitudes the kill radius [for the S-75] is about 65 meters and the blast radius for severe damage is 100-120 meters. The maximum blast radius against a high altitude target is approximately 250 meters, due to the rarefied atmosphere. "
Sa-2 frag used to be a 50% lethal range at a quarter of a mile. The other thing to consider is that frag will more than likely go through the fuselage of older aircraft. Where as the more solid aircraft of the Vietnam war would have more potential issues.
@@trolleriffic IIRC, most SA's use a type of pre-fragmented warhead. Think Claymore Mine. Where the 88's used HEAT rounds, my research hasn't found and AP type rounds which would have been much better for AA.
Warhead weight only really matters on kill radius, how far are the fragments going to travel. It's the size of the fragments, number of them, size of the aircraft, and speed of the air craft. I've seen 105mm HE rounds that left fragments the size of a mans chest, not real dangerous unless your "that guy" that gets lucky enough to win that prize. Yet the average grenade as fragments of about 10mmX10mm.
Consider this, a modern air craft is a lot smaller, and has a lot more "critical" systems crammed into the air frame, where the WW2 air craft had a lot less crammed into the same sizeish air frame.
The B-52's are a prime example of speed vers damage. Small holes, become large holes very quickly due to wind sheer. The Lockerbie downing demonstrated this pretty well.
I'd like to see if DCS used a speed variable in their damage code. Probably not, since it's a pretty complex model.
As always, just interesting questions from a guy that seems to always ask them.
it would be really interesting to know the difference in total energy and shrapnel velocities.
@@TheDgdimick the 88 used time fused HE in an AAA role, not the HEAT or APBC or APCR they had for the Anti tank role or the impact fused HE they had for use as surface to surface artillery
Attention Capt:
You talk about how well the A-10 proves itself to be in ground attack missions, such as the Vietnam scenario you recently did. Well, believe it or not, much like the F-86 Sabre was the son of the P-51D Mustang, the A-10 was the son of the A-1 Skyraider: A fighter introduced in 1945 (Too-late for the war) that was meant as a replacement for the Mustang. With it's 90-mph stall speed and capacity for more bombs than a B-17, it saw much use in Vietnam for ground attacks much like the one you recently did. A couple even shot-down a MiG-17 during 'Nam!
That said, here's an idea: Run the WWII scenarios you ran unsuccessfully with the A-10 again, but with the A-1 instead. That way, you could run it with more advanced weaponry (Vietnam-era, but better than WWII stuff... plus radar!) yet still be able to tangle with the Bf-109s with turning rates/radius that'll easily pull lead on the "Jerries".
Now...Given that the deciding factor of the victory in this scenario was the shear number of bombers used, imagine a swarm of A-1s large enough to use the equivalent all that fuel used by those B-17s bombers, instead... causing the SA's radar even greater difficulty in tracking them.
Or... you could just run the same again, but with a swarm A-10s on the attack... flying low, like you did with the fighters here. =;D
Thanks for this Downy :)
My grandfather was a navigator in B-17s during the war
Cj plane sounds like r2d2 getting shot
lol
ME :Kortana , Make me a Samich ....
Kortana: I"m sorry, I don't know how to help you with that, but here is one hell of a mission ..
What about the bombers dropping chaff the same as they did in WW2 to confuse the radar?
Good idea.
11:20 "There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity". To paraphrase Jonathan Bryce from Tomorrow Never Dies: That line is measured - only - in success.
The Lanc had the problem of being damn near impossible to get out of in flight.
That SA 5 looks like a old bloodhound missile
agree
12:38 the flight time for an 8.8cm Flak-43 was 11 seconds for around 30,000 feet.
That was exciting!
Just found you channel and I think ive binge watched 8 or 9 videos. Love the variety of craft used and found that you are ven using sci fi craft.
Any chance of using Battlestar Galactica Vipers against some WW2 planes. No idea if they are available but that would be really fun.
Welcome and will certainly try!!
Awesome!
10, 561 planes of varying types were shot down over Europe, 4754 of those were B-17.
There was a project called Window. Lead the flights dropping masses of chaff to spoof the radar systems of ze Germans. Not sure how effective it was, and I don’t reckon you could simulate it, but as I recall, it helped. Kortana might have more intel.
Sadly, chaff in DCS is pretty basic in that regard, so we can't deploy massive clouds of it to degrade radars. I'd love to see that sort of thing modelled in the future though.
That was what 617 squadron did on D day, they had to fly low level at a set speed for a set distance then throw the "window" out of the aircraft then turn 180 degrees and fly back over their course but for a shorter distance followed by another 180 degree turn then do it over and over again. That way they made 200+ mph lancasters look like an invasion fleet of ships on radar.
It would eat processor cycles, not only for graphics, but to model the probability.
Window (chaff) was really helpful at first, but once radar filtered out it’s own exact frequency, not only was chaff removed, but also ground clutter … as that also kept the identical distance to the radar.
-> Würzlaus
Window had such a massive impact on radar system it was treated much like a WMD - Britain was concerned about the Germans utilising it, albeit they didn't have the big bomber raids that really made use of it
Also Cap, sometimes the B-17 would only be flying at 80 knots 🪢 indicated because of at altitude airspeed.
Hanoi attack would be very cool. Could Blue infantry be involved to try and stop friendly fire? Added realism
Recorded it last night. was awesome!
@@grimreapers looking forward to it!
Should have 1M subscribers , RUclips algorithm must me broken! Keep up the entertainment Cap!
It seems to occasionally unsubscribe me
Did you know that the Grim Reapers were a specialized kamikaze hunter squadron flying Corsairs from the U.S.S. Independence during the later part of World War II?
Those B-17's should have been dead at the first SAM hit. That amount of shrapnel would have killed everyone inside the bomber.
Kortana - killed by her own creation.....errrr
Happens, literally, all of the time 🤣
The missiles prioritized lower altitude targets and thus were prone to firing at aircraft that were already effectively going to crash, eating up valuable time.
When you defend yourself from enemy attack and go bankrupt in the process.
I wonder how many SA2/3s would flat out miss from the tight bomber formation making a massive radar signature and the missile guessing where the plane actually is.
To avoid the flak and missiles, would it be too unorthodox to maybe land and taxi to target once you reach the French coast?
Lol. The light AAA will actually still engage you on the ground, and it is terrifyingly effective against unarmoured targets 😅 (e.g. aircraft)
cap, great videos, could you do the D-Day landings with B52 with ARK-LIGHT, it would very interesting to see the results and if the sea would absorb the explosion’s or not, thank you Grim Reapers 🙏
wil do
@@grimreapers thank you so much 😊
I'd like to see how you guys would play a scenario from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising (1983).
You forgot about the SA-4 GANEF and the Geko systems
Nice realistic AAA, people on the ground shoot back and the lower ya go the more they shoot back with
Is it possible to try and gun the missiles since they are moving in a relative straight line? Like line up and drive straight towards it?
Technically possible but almost imposs to do.
@@grimreapers Besides maybe Cortana (I'm optimistic in her abilities), probably no one knotching with a prop job. That leaves deploying disposable missile spunges Damp and Simba ahead, or supersonic chicken?😆
Absolutely love the wargame/naval hypothetical vids! Great content and a great team you guys have!