Nathan is great, while he is representing Cannondale he kept the conversation interesting and valuable without making it a pure marketing excercise. Great interview.
He does the best he can but clearly he had to help with the marketing. He talks about how the majority of the weight problem is the rider but doesn't extend that to how the majority of the aero problem is also the rider. Part of the issue is who you mean by the average rider. If you mean truly the average rider who isn't racing and doesn't have much wattage output then I don't really believe aero features on the bike matters much. It's such marginal gains and a better body position will massively increase performance in comparison. If you think the average rider is not professional but a competent club rider then sure it will make a small but noticeable difference but it's still getting into marginal gains.
Yeah this video totally glosses over the rider themself and focuses on the aero of the bike. Big surprise. The rider and the rider position is the vast majority of how aero/fast you are. Fancy tube shapes don't help much if the rider is sitting high up with elbows locked. Would be way more aero on a steel frame old bike with the rider holding themselves low.
Perhaps a better way of saying the rider matters the most is to look at it this way - the rider and the bike in the most aero dynamic position matters the most. Aero does matter - you are faster on an aero bike (unless on a lighter bike going slowly say under ~ 12-15 mph - up hill).
Fascinating. What’s interesting is, if you look at the main brands’ bikes today, how little they differ really. That Cannondale, whilst a thing of beauty, isn’t vastly different to the Tarmac, Melee, Propel, Emonda (to an extent). The differences are so small - yet it’s impossible to actually get time on each to form a view so a purchase is a bit of a leap into the dark. This is why your role, David, is so important as you get the chance to ride them all and can point out the differences beyond the marketing spiel.
@@willkent4759 Hadn't thought of it like that but that is a very good point. Unless things like the Madone A-hole or whatever it's called make a tangible difference. So perhaps a new aero weight arms race is underway and I've been slow to notice. Perhaps waiting for the price race.
The more that aero is the main design focus the more it is the physics of airflow that draws the shapes of the bike. And that will end up being pretty similar to all other aero designs.
I love the design of an arrow bike. It looks fast just sitting there. If you are lucky enough to be able to afford a high end bike I think it makes you want to ride harder longer and faster. Bicycling changed my life!!!!!!!!
True that only 10% of system weight is the bike. Also true that only 10% (?) of frontal area is the bike. I've never been sure how much of the benefit of an aero bike is how it forces the rider into a more aero position. For many of us middle aged folks who don't "slam their stem", do we get the touted benefits if we're riding in (relative to pros) a sorta "sit up and beg" position?
Yep, your intuition is correct. He pointed out the main rule of thumb which is 80% of overall resistance being due to drag at 20ish MPH, but he left out the fact that 80% of this drag is from the body of the rider, not the bike. So the aero bikes are most effective by stretching out the rider, and it also means that you can make nearly any bike aero by slamming it. I personally have found this to make a difference.
Absolutely, just what I was thinking while watching. His example of 1kg weight being a small percentage to say weight isn’t so important comes across as bias because he doesn’t compare to equivalent aero savings. I’d say 1kg makes a bigger difference than aero bars, and 1kg is very noticeable under acceleration and when you need it going up hill. I still think getting yourself into an aero position and upgrading the wheels gets you the majority of the aero gains, without a whole new bike which is probably less easy to work on (custom parts and full internal cables).
David Arthur, great talking point, but as soon as the video started we greeted by a Cannondale employee that was hired to make things more aero, so the talking point is weighted to YES, its important, so buy this LAB71. Seems like a good discussion away from any bike manufacturer location.
I think interviews like this are fine. He did a decent job reminding people of how much resistance comes from aero drag even at slow speeds. It would only be sketchy if they tried to conceal the fact that he works for Cannondale. I can still listen to what he has to say and take it with a grain of salt. For example before I watched this I didn't really understand the 3:1 rule and I wasn't aware of the fact that they made the seatpost so narrow and that that's why the di2 battery was placed elsewhere. I also liked how to said up front that some of their intention was to get good performance while preserving a specific aesthetic. On the other hand, when they say they're confident that it's the fastest bike in the pro peloton I'll just go ahead and not take his word for it on that one because of his obvious bias 🙂
what I'd be really interested in would be a windtunnel test with the evo 4 to see whether it breaks the trend for tested aero bikes and actually beats the trusty old giant tcr with a real david on. Because as long as all the aero gains then don't exist in practice, the whole discussion of value really is a little pointless.
Its like asking the wolf to watch the sheep. Asking the engineer of a bike company that just designed a new aero bike his opinion on the benefits, hilarious. I knew in the first 2 minutes where this conversation was going. Real world benefits (minimal) concern the top 1 or 2 % of riders in the world.
Today, I gripped the leading edge of my shopping basket, and rested my elbows on my handlebars, as I fought a headwind on my folding bike. So yes, I think aero is important for everyone, even if you're cycling to the shops! 😎
Most people cycle quiet upright, they have no aero-helmet on their heads an wear no aero-cloth as well. And all those people don't care, to be after 3h cycling 5 minutes earlier at home.
@@marcelhunziker9017 that is true for leisure riders, but if you ask other cyclists, who are maybe cycling to work, or to university, or the shops, if they would like to get there faster for the same effort, I think nearly all those people would say yes. In life, sometimes every second counts.
So that's the bike sorted. Now let's put a rider on it and some Cornish south-westerly cross winds, oh, and the hills and see what difference the areo bike makes then.
Being very used to the south westerlies, guess what, that adds to the bike (and more importantly) the riders drag - we are never in a vacuum so aero is everything (if its affordable)... you can't change your genes (big hitters are fast on anything comment above) but you can get better at aero, ride craft, tire optimising and most of all: fuelling.
Go to 15:18 → the ‘cannnondale’ sticker is not aligned perfectly with the downtube (& its a demo bike, I believe). How can you call it quality frame if they get sloppy on one of the easiest job yet will instantly spotted? 🤔
Super interesting video. Thank you. 3 years ago I was deciding between a Propel and a TCR. The guy at the store said "if you live in Dubai where everything is flat, then go the Propel. But given we are in New Zealand with hills everywhere, the TCR with 1kg less, is a better choice." Given the aero advantages seem to improve as speed picks up, and I rarely get above an average speed of 30kph on a long ride, I went with the lighter TCR. But it's much easier to lose 1 kg of body weight than take 1 kg off the bike. So, if I skip my pie and chips for a while, I could buy the Propel and have the same weight to push up the hills... 😉
@@ohhi5237 Neither. I just like living in 2023 and can choose the bike the suits me and where I ride. Could I lose a couple of kilos? I think we all could (which was my point). Did I buy the most expensive TCR? Not even close.
I just bought a new Orbea Orca Aero m20iltd. I love an aerobike. I like going fast on flat roads. Not really a climber. And I love the stifness of the frame on a descent. I had an endurance/climbing bike and I just couldn’t get used to it.
7 minutes of this CANNONBALL advertisement was all I could stomach, When the bike makes up (at best) 25% of the aero drag, improving that by a small % would seem to affect the people making the stuff's bottom line profits more than any actual performance improvement. I remember back-in-the-day being told "aero" wheels don't do much until the rider's going 30 mph...but a decade later somehow it was 30 Kph? Put two riders with similar body size/shape and power output on your "aero" bike with the other on something obviously "un-aero" and have 'em race off into a headwind and tell us how much difference it makes - just like when you see pros in races...the guy with the most slab-sided "aero" bike and wheels doesn't always win so how much difference does it all REALLY make?
Great discussion thanks for posting. It’s especially good to hear assertions that aerodynamics outweigh weight except on the steepest slowest climbs. (Power to overcome air drag increases with the *cube* of one’s speed.) I especially noted Nathan’s point that it’s weight of bike AND rider that matters, and we need to think in terms of fractions of total weight not only bike weight. Re frame geometry. A teardrop shape with a 4:1 to 6:1 length to width ratio dramatically reduces drag compared to a cylindrical tube. Anything less than that, and the drag remains close to that of the cylinder. It’s not at all a linear progression. There are certainly design tradeoffs and practical considerations, but it’s important to understand that a non-round tube with a 2:1 ratio or so isn’t changing things much from a drag standpoint. Last point-with spoked wheels or even wheel coverings, a tremendous amount of drag comes from the fork. No matter how teardrop shaped, the turbulence between the fork blades & wheel is astonishing. Same reason why monoplanes are much faster than biplanes. As Mike Burrows asserted, monoblade forks are the answer. Front and rear. Like his spectacular Lotus 108. They’re probably not UCCI legal though.
When it comes to aero, what a lot of tests on RUclips show is that the slower you ride, the more time you save. This is because you actually spend longer getting from A to B so the aero benefits add up to more time saved. You don't have to ride at 45 kph to get the aero benefits even though that is often the speed quoted.
Spot on but people just focus on the aero gains, made worse by marketing, at high speeds. That's why I did my wind tunnel testing at 30-35kph to more it more realistic
IMO, in the past 23 years, Cannondale has been the bike brand who have put out the LEAST amount of marketing BS. Agree that bike brands have hyped up aero too much, doesnt mean we should ignore it. Check out Cam Nichols timed runs of a System6 vs a Super6.
Anyone who has drafted behind a large vehicle knows the impact of aerodynamics. It's huge! But that's having all of the air out of your way. I'm not sure an aero-bike is worth the money unless your racing.
I believe 90% if not more drag comes from the person sitting on the seat. I have S works arrow handlebars And we always laugh as we're coming across the causeway in a 20 mile an hour Head wind I sure am glad that I spent big$$$$ On these aero bars😁
99% of the people don't race, if you don't race you don't need aero. Don't ask a representative of Canondale, he will always tell you to change your non aero-bike and buy an aero. It's business, nothing else, it's money in the pocket of the producers. It just looks sexier, and that's an argument to buy an aero-bike. Most people have a lower speed average than 30 km/h, and in this 90% category the advantage for an aero is a few watts.It's the biggest lie in bike industry, to tell a non professional biker, that he needs an aero bike to be substantially faster, all bull shit.
As other people have commented and as Nathan commented, even at speeds lower than 30kph you still benefit from aerodynamics, and slower riders will actually save more time over a course than a faster rider. So it's not all about the racing. And let's also remember, it's not about need, but want
@@davidarthur David how many seconds difference for an average Joe rider do you think an Aero bike makes a difference over a couple hours ride? I guarantee not much. If you're a professional sure, any gains could mean a place on a podium. I guarantee your 25km to 30km average speed rides you won't be seeing much difference. Body position, weight and fitness is where you see most gains as an amateur.
Most amateurs ride in groups, and usually, the few stronger of the group do the pulling and the rest just stay in the wheels. For the latter, what is most important is the capacity to stay in the pack uphill and sprint to catchup after roundabouts and tight corners, hence aero not so much important compared to weight and stiffness. For the former, who are also the ones who are more likely to race and try to breakaway/sprint at 40+ , aero is essential.
@davidarthur gotta agree with you there. Even though an aero bike isn't anywhere near the difference of an aero optimised position. If you are 100kg your barrel torso and legs are going to be the biggest chunk of drag
Just like the weight comparison between the rider and the bike, I think the same comparison can be made between the drag of the ride vs that of the bike 🤔
I cannot help but agree that the “aero” trend is more marketing BS than something that truly benefits the regular rider. True aero benefits are seen from adopting and aero position; the gains from just an aero frame for us regular joes is very low imo - but it gives manufacturers reasons to charge exorbitant prices 😡
I think a comparison of body position drag reduction versus bike frame aero drag reduction would b more interesting unless you are selling bikes. Unless u are world tour rider w aero bike versus another world tour rider body position is free and makes a much bigger impact.
When I was in the wind tunnel just dropping your elbows done to 90 degrees with hands on the hoods was an instant 70 watt drag saving. But holding that position is another matter
@@PHHE1 exactly. And that 10% over an hour ride probably equates to a few seconds difference for an average rider. Body position most important not whether the bike is Aero or not for the mere mortal.
@@user-nu5fx6en9h What type of aero bike do you use? In other yt video, a rider win the national race using 400usd non-uci china made frameset. An aussie rider win national race by putting a block of gopro under the stem so it will crash all aero benefit in his bike but still win 🤌🏻 The wheels overall rolling resistance and stiffness is the most important key including frameset stiffness and comfort. As long as you have all rounder bike under 7.5kg with better rolling resistance, stiffnes & comfort in overall bike system, it is more than enough, at least full integrated cable.
Yes it’s worth it! Because as non paid hobbyists cyclists, it doesn’t really matter how fast or slow we go as long as we think the bike that we own looks cool to us. I think aero bikes look cool, and so I chose them over lightweight bikes. Seriously, why bother about using race winning as a metric unless it’s your paid professional career? Ride what you like, not what you need.
A little perspective, you can expect a range from 1-4% range of total system efficiency gain going across a range of modern race bikes. Lets say in the case of the 250w output, the range would be 2.5-10w of power savings across a range of modern racing frame & forks. As the power increases, you can expect those percentages to expand a little due to the non linear characteristics of aerodynamics. But its not a free lunch as there are compromises as many engineering solutions never are compromise free. Aerodynamic frames tend to have frame performance compromises to a limited degree. Some of lateral stiffness reductions while conversely increasing longitudinal stiff. Depending on the compromise, the former might lead to a bike that doesn't track a line quite as well and the latter typically results in a harsher ride. Its a compromise made for extra performance in leading a break or finishing a sprint. Additionally, they are on average more challenging to layup and mold in carbon, but this is an issue for the manufacture and their quality control. Weight tends to increase, but unless the rider has been 'weight optimized', the minor difference in bike weight mostly results in a bike that doesn't feel as light on its toes and not much lost time during a climb. Lastly, the longitudinal stiffness can add to road chatter over poor pavement during a corner, but you can offset this to a degree with lower pressures by running tubeless. Running wider tires may reduce the overall aerodynamic performance, but the degree will be dependent on the system involved. While an aero bike typically will be quicker, it doesn't necessarily make the best ride or choice for every rider.
Thank you for the Information. I think longevity is a downside as well because of the thinner carbon in some areas that are not so structurally important. Is that correct?
I had a 2012 Pinarello. Only thing on it that was aero was the handlebars that I added. It weighed in at just under 7kg and was a great ride. I recently brought a 2022 aero bike which weighs 8.5kg. I did a local 30 mile ride that I’ve done many times on my Pinarello and my new bike knocked 15 minutes off my best time. The tubeless racing tyres would of added to the gains as well. It was night and day. My new bike is aero at the front and thin and light at the rear. Quite simply, aero brings more gains than a light bike.
@Adam Milo my new bike has beaten every Strava time that my Pinarello set before it. There’s so many differences between a 2012 and 2022 bike. I think my old bike had me more upright. The old skinny aluminium rims with loads of spokes just dragged through the wind. Riding 28mm tubeless tyres on aero carbon wheels instead of the old 25’s with inner tubes is so much faster.
Let say you do 30 miles in 1h 30 min, that’s 20mph average. Now, if you do same distance 15 min faster your avg is 24 mph. 4 mph is HUGE jump. If you did it, it’s not because of new bike. EPO - maybe 🙃
Please challenge me, how on earth can more arrow even be a factor when we have our bodies dragging at the highest point? Sorry but all I can think about is a sailboat and being against the wind. That's an exaggeration but I figured it would help simplify my point.
I have a cannondale system six and for a bike, itself it is a fast bike but i got a much greater gain in average speed by wearing a speed suit, putting vision metron 4d mas bolt on tri bars on it and wearing an aerodynamic helmet, than the bike aerodynamics could ever offer on it's own. The biggest resistance to going faster, is the biggest object in the equation and that is you. So if your funds are limited, buy tri bars to put you in an aerodynamic position and an aerodynamic helmet and speed suit first, before spending big money on an aero bike but if your funds aren't limited the aero bike is the icing on the cake. Altogether my aero bike set up with TT bars, aero helmet and speed suit etc. is very nearly as fast as my proper all out TT bike, dressed for racing in the same manner. Of course i am a TT rider and like to train on all bikes in that position, a road racer would not put tri bars on but a road based aero helmet and speed suit would still benefit greatly, especially on breakaways etc. I am a little surprised however, that the aerodynamic equations the cannondale guy was considering, were about the bike itself and he didn't say anything about the rider and bike as an aerodynamic system together. That is where future aerodynamic gains can be made.
Hi David. Another great video, thanks. I'm convinced that aerodynamics matter even at relatively slow speeds, but what I continue to be less convinced of is whether changes in tube shapes and so forth are consequential. I remember at one point Factor claimed that they had designed their Factor LS gravel bike to put the rider in a very aero position, but hadn't worried about aero tube shapes (instead prioritizing weight). Their explanation was that at slower speeds it is really only the 'A' part of CdA that matters. A lot of us simpletons imagine that CdA is static but actually it changes depending on speed and wind direction. When you're going 50kph your CdA improves a lot when you replace a cylinder with a truncated airfoil, but at 20kph that difference is tiny and Cd will be similar regardless of tube shape. At 20kph you just need a bike that helps you reduce frontal area (ie: get your head down). Anyways, I don't know what I'm talking about or whether any of this is true, but I would love to hear what an expert has to say about it if you ever get a chance to look into this!
Cd is actually not really constant but a function of velocity , or rather the state of the air flow . Within certain limits it can be considered to be constant but change outside these limits .
3:10 which road is that? Looks a bit like Wrynose to me. Mind you, I've suffered up several hills that look similar. I'm guessing at 3:33 it's Hardknott. I've walked that a couple of times. 🤣🤣
Come on!! Dont talk to a bike manufacturer, talk to unbiased engineers. What is the resistance from the body vs that of the bike? 90/10? There may be a slight advantage in an aero bike on a solo ride, but it would be negligible when drafting on a group ride. The industry is exploiting pseudo science, and the consumer need to have the latest and greatest.
Sure sell that $8k - $10k price tag bike for maybe going up a hill 20 - 30 seconds faster. It does not make sense. You want to make yourself aero, stop riding always of top of the hoods. Work on your flexibity and try to stay in the drops. Try to get low and you will see the benefits. You will save yourself a whole lot of $$$.
@c johnson absolutely tuck on the hoods is aero but is a tough position to hold. When your triceps start burning in the position the drops are your next option
@@maxab7e63s5 If you can't hold a tucked position on the hoods, you can't hold the drops. The only change is the elbow angle. If your pedaling isn't sufficient to unweight your hands, you're not strong enough to be riding either position for long. Which is ultimately why aerodynamics are fucking pointless unless you're good enough to be paid to ride a bike. 99.99% of people aren't strong enough to benefit from worrying about aero. If you aren't strong enough to ride consistently in an aero position on the hoods, you shouldn't be spending $10k+ on an aero bike. Go buy a cushy titanium endurance frame.
@@cjohnson3836 I'm much more comfortable in drops and can go 100km 90% in drops. No way my body can do that tucked on hoods. I'm 70kg and have a slammed stem. Drops definitely more comfortable without question for me personally
@@MarcraM82 So you don't have the strength to use drops without destroying your aerodynamic profile in order to position your arm in a more mechanically advantaged angle. Thanks for proving my point.
The human on the bike is by far the largest mass to carry, and the biggest silhouette to push through the air. I have a difficult time believing that an aero bike alone can save 10% of energy. Wind tunnel tests are fine, but in the real world there are head winds, cross winds, tail winds, and pacelines. This guy works for Cannondale. He has an agenda to sell Cannondales. While the video is interesting, and a lovely ad for Cannondale, this discussion is sort of meaningless for me because I'll never spend $15K on a bicycle. I wouldn't even spend $15K on a car.
Just thinking if I buy a super aero bike then as I hurtle faster downhill I can get the maximum benefit from my hydraulic disc brakes by squeezing on them harder before I throw myself into corners😀
Here's a little napkin math. No speed factor, so an artificial assumption that speed doesn't matter and I'm always going 20mph (or any other speed). To simplify, we'll say all the watts are working to over come drag, though it's probably just 90%. Everything I've researched says that about 80% of the bike/rider drag is the rider. So if I'm pushing 200 watts, 160 watts of that is me and 40 watts is the bike. If I could cut the drag of my bike in half, I could theoretically go 20mph pushing only 180 watts. Saving 20 watts (10%) certainly isn't nothing. But in reality, I can't cut my bike's drag in half no matter what I do. I can save 25% or so, tops. So instead of that theoretical 20 watts, I can really save just 10, down to 5% of the total of me and the bike. Going back to that 90% and adding back 10 watts for rolling resistance and drive line friction (which more appropriately would have come of the top), I'm not getting much out of my effort to make my bike more aerodynamically efficient. I'd be far better off working on my fitness and flexibility so I can hold an aero posture for longer.
I never used to give the aero engineering bike manufacturers trumpeted credit until I got an aero bike (long story) and now I’m a firm believer in its dynamics… doesn’t mean I agree with them costing the price of a small car…🍻
the largest aerodynamic obstacle isn't the bike, and aero gains there are helpful, but compared to YOU the rider, as a big non-aero bag of water, and the aero your bike 'saves' doesn't change that very much.
I can never understand why fairings, i.e. non structural parts cant be added to a frame so that it might look like a System 6 but have a light frame, They do this in every other wheeled sport, and aircraft.
@@andrewhayes7055 I feel like trek prices are ones the most out of hand in terms of value for money. Only topped of course by the self indulgent italian "premium" brands
People forget that with aerodynamic efficiency gains, a ~25km/h rider saves MORE seconds on a 50km ride than a ~40km/h rider. The faster rider merely saves more time as a percentage.
some math/proof here? at 25kmh aero bike barely does anything (you will go 25 on standard bike and 25.3 on aero with same power) , while at 40kmh it start to play a role and you will go 41kmh instead of 40 with same power.
If aero is everything and 1 kg of total mass penalty does not count, how on earth this bike is better than SystemSix? Why did Specialized discontinue the Venge and tries to fool us with Aethos?
Very nice bike I saw it today and must say Cannondale has outdone itself again! But the delivery times are dramatic again, as is often the case with new models. And that's why I'm going for the Canyon ultimate slx 8. And fingers crossed that they are in stock at the end of June.
Considering weight as a system, but excluding aerodynamics from the same, is a false comparison. Just like shaving grams off a bike that will be ridden by a 200+lbs rider is worthless, so to are marginal aerodynamic gains on a bike ridden by someone with a 36+ inch gut. Most people, esp in the west where these bikes mostly sell, are simply not fit enough to be bothering with aerodynamics.
Most races I do these days average high speed. B grade which I race in averages 44kmph and c 43 and d averages from what I’ve seen around 40. Aero bikes still matter
Why do all these brands make these bike compliance with such big tires. It's nice to have options, but how many people buy a roadbike and put bigger than 28mm on? The gap between front tire and downtube and rear tire and seatpost can be much smaller for improved aerodynamics. For example as you can see between the SuperSix and Systemsix.
For example me. 32c installed tubeless, 60 psi, never going back to 25c and 28c. Added comfort, confidence, safety, vibration reduction, is so great that the benefits far outweight the potential side effects and aero penalty.
All the group rides where I live are slow on flat ground and only go hard on climbs. If I accelerate 1kph, then no one follows me. So aero doesn't count for these people, which is consistent with their position on the bike, which is not at all aero.
Same argument that goes for the weight also applies for aerodynamics: the rider is the biggest body that you are pushing through the air. So why does he use this argument for weight and dismisses it for aero?
Maybe cut back on the pizza and beer? You’ll save money and ride faster with a smaller belly and by losing 10-20 lbs. Then once you’ve addressed your own shortcomings, maybe focus on the bike frame?
@@davidarthur However air is well into turbulent flow territory. Low speed implies viscous behavior which is not the case for bicycles in air at normal speeds. There is a reason why drag at 40kmh is much more than double drag at 20kmh, because it is squared.
I have to say, for someone who just wants to sell his bike and tell me it's the best ever, this was a remarkably fun interview. Also the questions were chosen well to nurture that I think.
People cycle for different reasons. For me it's to get out and observe the world, relax, zen experience. I can't imagine caring about speed or aero. I really wish the bike industry would move back to quiet hubs, too. Noisy hubs get in the way of the experience and are an ear sore for cyclists (and hikers/walkers) around those who have them. The industry is a bit of a mess. I guess it always has been, but it seems worse than ever right now. Decisions seem to be made appealing to some dream that weekend warriors are going to become pros, and that's just embarrassingly off with the reality of the situation. Those guys all decked out in gear and aero are becoming laughing stocks where I live, which is kind of refreshing to see the tide reverse. Kind of like dudes in big trucks. We all just assume insecure, small dick energy. Most people got into cycling for the freedom and exploration of the world as kids, and the closer we get back to that the better.
@@jamesj2964 These aren't the best road bikes. They're race bikes. Race bikes aren't road bikes. And "best" is relative to goal. If you don't give a fuck about racing, a racing bike is stupid. And since only 200 of the 8 billion people alive will be lining up for the TdF, chances are you have no business spending money on a race bike.
@@cjohnson3836 I agree with you, but I still feel like a 20k bike is worth it because it is made with the most advanced technologies, and we need to support the business so the bike can be better and better.
Great so why do I need this bike? It just seems like cannondale are just playing catch up with specialized tarmac sl7…also he trashes the weight weenies argument but then says it not as fast as the system six?!
What’s wrong with that? The cycling group obviously values participation rather than training. Ride easy with the group, but train at other times. “Oh, it’s a group ride day. I better change to my heavy non-aero wheels.” lol
@@5891jonathan I would. It's much more comfortable. People have separate training wheels and racing wheels. There is so much groupthink going on in cycling but that's been the way it's been for over a century
I mean we already know what the answer is going to be when the Cannondale engineer/employee is going to discuss aerodynamics and if they are really valuable for the “regular” cyclist. Lol. Of course it is.
Todays cycling industry is somewhat similar to mobile phone industry. Add few tweaks charge a bomb and voila you have a winner. All look the same i think maybe iam wrong.
And then you plop a human on the top of the aero bike, and all gains are gone. I don’t get it. The giant mattress on the top of the bike is not addressed
I noticed that Jonas Vingegaard has been using the Cervelo S5 rather than the R5 even on mountain finishes in Paris-Nice. Although he's fast enough to go like 25kph up a mountain though so maybe not the best example.
easier? honest? So aerobikes are certainly not easier to ride than all-rounder bikes. Crosswinds alone are extremely exhausting. But you can pretend anything to the masses, as long as it is more expensive and advertised as good, almost everyone jumps on the bandwagon
Asking Cannondale Aerodynamics engineer if aerodynamics are important for regular cyclist is like calling telemarketing and asking if you should by their Topanzenite earings... Like what else is he going to say???!!! Don't get me wrong, I do think it is important for any cyclist...ride 30kph on hoods vs 30kph on the drops and tell me there is no difference. But having Cannondale guy pushing their latest aero bike and having them talking about importance of aerodynamics as an excuse to push their aero bikes....meh. Simply don't frame the conversation into clickbait: An Aerodynamics Expert Reveals the Truth...All he reveals is his latest bike design lol. Ask a question about benefits of aero and problem is gone imho
You might need a couple of grams extra to be more aero that you don't want for climbing but consider you tend to ride a lot of flat between hills so when you get to the hill, more aero is less tired is more energy for the climb. I like the square biddons. Thats attention to detail. Pity the cages aren't faired in though.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Nathan is great, while he is representing Cannondale he kept the conversation interesting and valuable without making it a pure marketing excercise. Great interview.
He does the best he can but clearly he had to help with the marketing. He talks about how the majority of the weight problem is the rider but doesn't extend that to how the majority of the aero problem is also the rider.
Part of the issue is who you mean by the average rider. If you mean truly the average rider who isn't racing and doesn't have much wattage output then I don't really believe aero features on the bike matters much. It's such marginal gains and a better body position will massively increase performance in comparison. If you think the average rider is not professional but a competent club rider then sure it will make a small but noticeable difference but it's still getting into marginal gains.
Aero bikes can be very enticing but I can't help but notice that the hitters at my group ride are fast on everything they ride.
To sum it up. Its YOU that matters the most not necessarily just the bike
You'll never sell new bikes with that attitude 😉
Yeah this video totally glosses over the rider themself and focuses on the aero of the bike. Big surprise. The rider and the rider position is the vast majority of how aero/fast you are. Fancy tube shapes don't help much if the rider is sitting high up with elbows locked. Would be way more aero on a steel frame old bike with the rider holding themselves low.
Perhaps a better way of saying the rider matters the most is to look at it this way - the rider and the bike in the most aero dynamic position matters the most. Aero does matter - you are faster on an aero bike (unless on a lighter bike going slowly say under ~ 12-15 mph - up hill).
For shure. But as a competitive the bike matters. If you have a 5w/kg ftp+, 10% as mentioned do care a lot:)
Fascinating. What’s interesting is, if you look at the main brands’ bikes today, how little they differ really. That Cannondale, whilst a thing of beauty, isn’t vastly different to the Tarmac, Melee, Propel, Emonda (to an extent). The differences are so small - yet it’s impossible to actually get time on each to form a view so a purchase is a bit of a leap into the dark. This is why your role, David, is so important as you get the chance to ride them all and can point out the differences beyond the marketing spiel.
@@willkent4759 Hadn't thought of it like that but that is a very good point. Unless things like the Madone A-hole or whatever it's called make a tangible difference. So perhaps a new aero weight arms race is underway and I've been slow to notice. Perhaps waiting for the price race.
The more that aero is the main design focus the more it is the physics of airflow that draws the shapes of the bike. And that will end up being pretty similar to all other aero designs.
I love the design of an arrow bike. It looks fast just sitting there. If you are lucky enough to be able to afford a high end bike I think it makes you want to ride harder longer and faster. Bicycling changed my life!!!!!!!!
True that only 10% of system weight is the bike. Also true that only 10% (?) of frontal area is the bike. I've never been sure how much of the benefit of an aero bike is how it forces the rider into a more aero position. For many of us middle aged folks who don't "slam their stem", do we get the touted benefits if we're riding in (relative to pros) a sorta "sit up and beg" position?
Yep, your intuition is correct. He pointed out the main rule of thumb which is 80% of overall resistance being due to drag at 20ish MPH, but he left out the fact that 80% of this drag is from the body of the rider, not the bike. So the aero bikes are most effective by stretching out the rider, and it also means that you can make nearly any bike aero by slamming it. I personally have found this to make a difference.
Absolutely, just what I was thinking while watching. His example of 1kg weight being a small percentage to say weight isn’t so important comes across as bias because he doesn’t compare to equivalent aero savings. I’d say 1kg makes a bigger difference than aero bars, and 1kg is very noticeable under acceleration and when you need it going up hill. I still think getting yourself into an aero position and upgrading the wheels gets you the majority of the aero gains, without a whole new bike which is probably less easy to work on (custom parts and full internal cables).
David Arthur, great talking point, but as soon as the video started we greeted by a Cannondale employee that was hired to make things more aero, so the talking point is weighted to YES, its important, so buy this LAB71. Seems like a good discussion away from any bike manufacturer location.
Seems like you did not watch the whole video.
I think interviews like this are fine. He did a decent job reminding people of how much resistance comes from aero drag even at slow speeds. It would only be sketchy if they tried to conceal the fact that he works for Cannondale. I can still listen to what he has to say and take it with a grain of salt. For example before I watched this I didn't really understand the 3:1 rule and I wasn't aware of the fact that they made the seatpost so narrow and that that's why the di2 battery was placed elsewhere. I also liked how to said up front that some of their intention was to get good performance while preserving a specific aesthetic. On the other hand, when they say they're confident that it's the fastest bike in the pro peloton I'll just go ahead and not take his word for it on that one because of his obvious bias 🙂
If aero is so important then why did they put disc brakes on their road bike? 😂
Pure marketing (companies trying to make money). I will use rim brakes as long as possible.
Because long descends are way more comfortable with hydraulic disc brakes instead of rim brakes...
what I'd be really interested in would be a windtunnel test with the evo 4 to see whether it breaks the trend for tested aero bikes and actually beats the trusty old giant tcr with a real david on. Because as long as all the aero gains then don't exist in practice, the whole discussion of value really is a little pointless.
The good news is that if you’re not competing neither really matters
The fact that seems missing is that the rider's body will have more wind drag than the bike.
Its like asking the wolf to watch the sheep. Asking the engineer of a bike company that just designed a new aero bike his opinion on the benefits, hilarious. I knew in the first 2 minutes where this conversation was going. Real world benefits (minimal) concern the top 1 or 2 % of riders in the world.
Today, I gripped the leading edge of my shopping basket, and rested my elbows on my handlebars, as I fought a headwind on my folding bike.
So yes, I think aero is important for everyone, even if you're cycling to the shops! 😎
LOVE IT!! Gotta get those aero gains everywhere you can
Most people cycle quiet upright, they have no aero-helmet on their heads an wear no aero-cloth as well. And all those people don't care, to be after 3h cycling 5 minutes earlier at home.
@@marcelhunziker9017 that is true for leisure riders, but if you ask other cyclists, who are maybe cycling to work, or to university, or the shops, if they would like to get there faster for the same effort, I think nearly all those people would say yes. In life, sometimes every second counts.
So that's the bike sorted. Now let's put a rider on it and some Cornish south-westerly cross winds, oh, and the hills and see what difference the areo bike makes then.
Being very used to the south westerlies, guess what, that adds to the bike (and more importantly) the riders drag - we are never in a vacuum so aero is everything (if its affordable)... you can't change your genes (big hitters are fast on anything comment above) but you can get better at aero, ride craft, tire optimising and most of all: fuelling.
80 % of the drag is the rider more marketing it deepens on how fit you are and the prices are eye watering
Pretty sure the same could be said for weight
Go to 15:18 → the ‘cannnondale’ sticker is not aligned perfectly with the downtube (& its a demo bike, I believe). How can you call it quality frame if they get sloppy on one of the easiest job yet will instantly spotted? 🤔
Super interesting video. Thank you. 3 years ago I was deciding between a Propel and a TCR. The guy at the store said "if you live in Dubai where everything is flat, then go the Propel. But given we are in New Zealand with hills everywhere, the TCR with 1kg less, is a better choice." Given the aero advantages seem to improve as speed picks up, and I rarely get above an average speed of 30kph on a long ride, I went with the lighter TCR. But it's much easier to lose 1 kg of body weight than take 1 kg off the bike. So, if I skip my pie and chips for a while, I could buy the Propel and have the same weight to push up the hills... 😉
@@ohhi5237 Neither. I just like living in 2023 and can choose the bike the suits me and where I ride. Could I lose a couple of kilos? I think we all could (which was my point). Did I buy the most expensive TCR? Not even close.
I just bought a new Orbea Orca Aero m20iltd. I love an aerobike. I like going fast on flat roads. Not really a climber. And I love the stifness of the frame on a descent. I had an endurance/climbing bike and I just couldn’t get used to it.
I'm looking at that model. Are you happy with it?
@@martindimbleby1439 i love it. Amazing bike. And it can be completely personalized through the myo configurator
@King Of Crunk there are also performance bikes. These are between aero and endurance bikes.
7 minutes of this CANNONBALL advertisement was all I could stomach, When the bike makes up (at best) 25% of the aero drag, improving that by a small % would seem to affect the people making the stuff's bottom line profits more than any actual performance improvement. I remember back-in-the-day being told "aero" wheels don't do much until the rider's going 30 mph...but a decade later somehow it was 30 Kph? Put two riders with similar body size/shape and power output on your "aero" bike with the other on something obviously "un-aero" and have 'em race off into a headwind and tell us how much difference it makes - just like when you see pros in races...the guy with the most slab-sided "aero" bike and wheels doesn't always win so how much difference does it all REALLY make?
Great discussion thanks for posting. It’s especially good to hear assertions that aerodynamics outweigh weight except on the steepest slowest climbs. (Power to overcome air drag increases with the *cube* of one’s speed.) I especially noted Nathan’s point that it’s weight of bike AND rider that matters, and we need to think in terms of fractions of total weight not only bike weight.
Re frame geometry. A teardrop shape with a 4:1 to 6:1 length to width ratio dramatically reduces drag compared to a cylindrical tube. Anything less than that, and the drag remains close to that of the cylinder. It’s not at all a linear progression. There are certainly design tradeoffs and practical considerations, but it’s important to understand that a non-round tube with a 2:1 ratio or so isn’t changing things much from a drag standpoint.
Last point-with spoked wheels or even wheel coverings, a tremendous amount of drag comes from the fork. No matter how teardrop shaped, the turbulence between the fork blades & wheel is astonishing. Same reason why monoplanes are much faster than biplanes.
As Mike Burrows asserted, monoblade forks are the answer. Front and rear. Like his spectacular Lotus 108.
They’re probably not UCCI legal though.
When it comes to aero, what a lot of tests on RUclips show is that the slower you ride, the more time you save. This is because you actually spend longer getting from A to B so the aero benefits add up to more time saved. You don't have to ride at 45 kph to get the aero benefits even though that is often the speed quoted.
Spot on but people just focus on the aero gains, made worse by marketing, at high speeds. That's why I did my wind tunnel testing at 30-35kph to more it more realistic
I would have liked for you to ask an expert that doesn’t have any skin in the game 😉
Citations or links, please.
@@ohhi5237 not necessarily. The guys working at the wind tunnel are not employees of a manufacturer, and they would be able to provide information 🤔
IMO, in the past 23 years, Cannondale has been the bike brand who have put out the LEAST amount of marketing BS. Agree that bike brands have hyped up aero too much, doesnt mean we should ignore it. Check out Cam Nichols timed runs of a System6 vs a Super6.
Agreed and their mountain bikes and the Lefty are legendary
Anyone who has drafted behind a large vehicle knows the impact of aerodynamics. It's huge! But that's having all of the air out of your way. I'm not sure an aero-bike is worth the money unless your racing.
I believe 90% if not more drag comes from the person sitting on the seat. I have S works arrow handlebars And we always laugh as we're coming across the causeway in a 20 mile an hour Head wind I sure am glad that I spent big$$$$ On these aero bars😁
Exactly right.
I've always thought the same thing. It's like strapping a mattress to the top of an F1 car. I don't get it.
@@ohhi5237 yep! It saves 5 watts at 100km per hour hehehe
@@ohhi5237 😂
99% of the people don't race, if you don't race you don't need aero. Don't ask a representative of Canondale, he will always tell you to change your non aero-bike and buy an aero. It's business, nothing else, it's money in the pocket of the producers. It just looks sexier, and that's an argument to buy an aero-bike. Most people have a lower speed average than 30 km/h, and in this 90% category the advantage for an aero is a few watts.It's the biggest lie in bike industry, to tell a non professional biker, that he needs an aero bike to be substantially faster, all bull shit.
As other people have commented and as Nathan commented, even at speeds lower than 30kph you still benefit from aerodynamics, and slower riders will actually save more time over a course than a faster rider. So it's not all about the racing. And let's also remember, it's not about need, but want
@@davidarthur David how many seconds difference for an average Joe rider do you think an Aero bike makes a difference over a couple hours ride? I guarantee not much. If you're a professional sure, any gains could mean a place on a podium. I guarantee your 25km to 30km average speed rides you won't be seeing much difference. Body position, weight and fitness is where you see most gains as an amateur.
Most amateurs ride in groups, and usually, the few stronger of the group do the pulling and the rest just stay in the wheels. For the latter, what is most important is the capacity to stay in the pack uphill and sprint to catchup after roundabouts and tight corners, hence aero not so much important compared to weight and stiffness. For the former, who are also the ones who are more likely to race and try to breakaway/sprint at 40+ , aero is essential.
What an incredible interview, David! Informative, fun, and very well produced!
Thanks sir!
Evry 4 years Aero is everything, next 4 years weight is everything. Marketing
Aero has been pretty constant for about 10+ years but don't let facts get in the way ;)
@davidarthur gotta agree with you there. Even though an aero bike isn't anywhere near the difference of an aero optimised position. If you are 100kg your barrel torso and legs are going to be the biggest chunk of drag
Just like the weight comparison between the rider and the bike, I think the same comparison can be made between the drag of the ride vs that of the bike 🤔
Due to manufacturing issues: Next future 4 years one bike rule them all and the art of balance 😅
I cannot help but agree that the “aero” trend is more marketing BS than something that truly benefits the regular rider. True aero benefits are seen from adopting and aero position; the gains from just an aero frame for us regular joes is very low imo - but it gives manufacturers reasons to charge exorbitant prices 😡
One doesn't want to blow one's own trumpet.....but one's own area of expertise is the most important.
I think a comparison of body position drag reduction versus bike frame aero drag reduction would b more interesting unless you are selling bikes. Unless u are world tour rider w aero bike versus another world tour rider body position is free and makes a much bigger impact.
When I was in the wind tunnel just dropping your elbows done to 90 degrees with hands on the hoods was an instant 70 watt drag saving. But holding that position is another matter
Well he said it, 10% can be done by the bike. Just about tells you where you should actually be working on XD
@@PHHE1 exactly. And that 10% over an hour ride probably equates to a few seconds difference for an average rider. Body position most important not whether the bike is Aero or not for the mere mortal.
11:47: But, that Trek though! 😍😍😍
So, lets get back to the original question. Are Aero bikes worth it if you're not a professional cyclist?
Yes super worth it! You ride faster and easier but the price maybe not 🫢
@@user-nu5fx6en9h What type of aero bike do you use?
In other yt video, a rider win the national race using 400usd non-uci china made frameset.
An aussie rider win national race by putting a block of gopro under the stem so it will crash all aero benefit in his bike but still win 🤌🏻
The wheels overall rolling resistance and stiffness is the most important key including frameset stiffness and comfort. As long as you have all rounder bike under 7.5kg with better rolling resistance, stiffnes & comfort in overall bike system, it is more than enough, at least full integrated cable.
Yes it’s worth it!
Because as non paid hobbyists cyclists, it doesn’t really matter how fast or slow we go as long as we think the bike that we own looks cool to us. I think aero bikes look cool, and so I chose them over lightweight bikes.
Seriously, why bother about using race winning as a metric unless it’s your paid professional career? Ride what you like, not what you need.
A little perspective, you can expect a range from 1-4% range of total system efficiency gain going across a range of modern race bikes. Lets say in the case of the 250w output, the range would be 2.5-10w of power savings across a range of modern racing frame & forks.
As the power increases, you can expect those percentages to expand a little due to the non linear characteristics of aerodynamics. But its not a free lunch as there are compromises as many engineering solutions never are compromise free.
Aerodynamic frames tend to have frame performance compromises to a limited degree. Some of lateral stiffness reductions while conversely increasing longitudinal stiff. Depending on the compromise, the former might lead to a bike that doesn't track a line quite as well and the latter typically results in a harsher ride. Its a compromise made for extra performance in leading a break or finishing a sprint. Additionally, they are on average more challenging to layup and mold in carbon, but this is an issue for the manufacture and their quality control.
Weight tends to increase, but unless the rider has been 'weight optimized', the minor difference in bike weight mostly results in a bike that doesn't feel as light on its toes and not much lost time during a climb.
Lastly, the longitudinal stiffness can add to road chatter over poor pavement during a corner, but you can offset this to a degree with lower pressures by running tubeless. Running wider tires may reduce the overall aerodynamic performance, but the degree will be dependent on the system involved.
While an aero bike typically will be quicker, it doesn't necessarily make the best ride or choice for every rider.
Thank you for the Information. I think longevity is a downside as well because of the thinner carbon in some areas that are not so structurally important. Is that correct?
lets get a guy from cannondale to tell us if spending 10k on a cannondale is worth it. hehe
Great interview. Good questions and insights. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Going to the Nth degree to reduce aerodynamic drag then sticking a dirty great rotor and caliper right into the wind!😄
Great interview. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
I had a 2012 Pinarello. Only thing on it that was aero was the handlebars that I added. It weighed in at just under 7kg and was a great ride. I recently brought a 2022 aero bike which weighs 8.5kg. I did a local 30 mile ride that I’ve done many times on my Pinarello and my new bike knocked 15 minutes off my best time. The tubeless racing tyres would of added to the gains as well. It was night and day. My new bike is aero at the front and thin and light at the rear. Quite simply, aero brings more gains than a light bike.
It was wind.
@Adam Milo my new bike has beaten every Strava time that my Pinarello set before it. There’s so many differences between a 2012 and 2022 bike. I think my old bike had me more upright. The old skinny aluminium rims with loads of spokes just dragged through the wind. Riding 28mm tubeless tyres on aero carbon wheels instead of the old 25’s with inner tubes is so much faster.
Let say you do 30 miles in 1h 30 min, that’s 20mph average. Now, if you do same distance 15 min faster your avg is 24 mph. 4 mph is HUGE jump. If you did it, it’s not because of new bike. EPO - maybe 🙃
@@tomaszflorczyk9929 I went from 1 hour 45 to 1 hour 31. When I got my new bike I was beginning my 3rd year of cycling.
Not doubting the new bike is inherently better, but it sounds like that Pinarello might be clapped out.
If they are trying to make the bike as aerodynamic as possible, why did they make it with disc brakes???
Please challenge me, how on earth can more arrow even be a factor when we have our bodies dragging at the highest point? Sorry but all I can think about is a sailboat and being against the wind. That's an exaggeration but I figured it would help simplify my point.
I have a cannondale system six and for a bike, itself it is a fast bike but i got a much greater gain in average speed by wearing a speed suit, putting vision metron 4d mas bolt on tri bars on it and wearing an aerodynamic helmet, than the bike aerodynamics could ever offer on it's own. The biggest resistance to going faster, is the biggest object in the equation and that is you. So if your funds are limited, buy tri bars to put you in an aerodynamic position and an aerodynamic helmet and speed suit first, before spending big money on an aero bike but if your funds aren't limited the aero bike is the icing on the cake. Altogether my aero bike set up with TT bars, aero helmet and speed suit etc. is very nearly as fast as my proper all out TT bike, dressed for racing in the same manner. Of course i am a TT rider and like to train on all bikes in that position, a road racer would not put tri bars on but a road based aero helmet and speed suit would still benefit greatly, especially on breakaways etc. I am a little surprised however, that the aerodynamic equations the cannondale guy was considering, were about the bike itself and he didn't say anything about the rider and bike as an aerodynamic system together. That is where future aerodynamic gains can be made.
Is Aero worth it? Listen to our independent expert who is selling a Cannonsale SuperSix 😅
Hi David. Another great video, thanks. I'm convinced that aerodynamics matter even at relatively slow speeds, but what I continue to be less convinced of is whether changes in tube shapes and so forth are consequential. I remember at one point Factor claimed that they had designed their Factor LS gravel bike to put the rider in a very aero position, but hadn't worried about aero tube shapes (instead prioritizing weight). Their explanation was that at slower speeds it is really only the 'A' part of CdA that matters. A lot of us simpletons imagine that CdA is static but actually it changes depending on speed and wind direction. When you're going 50kph your CdA improves a lot when you replace a cylinder with a truncated airfoil, but at 20kph that difference is tiny and Cd will be similar regardless of tube shape. At 20kph you just need a bike that helps you reduce frontal area (ie: get your head down). Anyways, I don't know what I'm talking about or whether any of this is true, but I would love to hear what an expert has to say about it if you ever get a chance to look into this!
Cd is actually not really constant but a function of velocity , or rather the state of the air flow . Within certain limits it can be considered to be constant but change outside these limits .
3:10 which road is that? Looks a bit like Wrynose to me. Mind you, I've suffered up several hills that look similar. I'm guessing at 3:33 it's Hardknott. I've walked that a couple of times. 🤣🤣
Correct Daren, a bit of footage from the Fred Whitton last year
Come on!! Dont talk to a bike manufacturer, talk to unbiased engineers. What is the resistance from the body vs that of the bike? 90/10? There may be a slight advantage in an aero bike on a solo ride, but it would be negligible when drafting on a group ride. The industry is exploiting pseudo science, and the consumer need to have the latest and greatest.
Sure sell that $8k - $10k price tag bike for maybe going up a hill 20 - 30 seconds faster. It does not make sense. You want to make yourself aero, stop riding always of top of the hoods. Work on your flexibity and try to stay in the drops. Try to get low and you will see the benefits. You will save yourself a whole lot of $$$.
Hoods in a tuck are more aero than drops. Drops are for control. This is old news at this point.
@c johnson absolutely tuck on the hoods is aero but is a tough position to hold. When your triceps start burning in the position the drops are your next option
@@maxab7e63s5 If you can't hold a tucked position on the hoods, you can't hold the drops. The only change is the elbow angle. If your pedaling isn't sufficient to unweight your hands, you're not strong enough to be riding either position for long. Which is ultimately why aerodynamics are fucking pointless unless you're good enough to be paid to ride a bike. 99.99% of people aren't strong enough to benefit from worrying about aero. If you aren't strong enough to ride consistently in an aero position on the hoods, you shouldn't be spending $10k+ on an aero bike. Go buy a cushy titanium endurance frame.
@@cjohnson3836 I'm much more comfortable in drops and can go 100km 90% in drops. No way my body can do that tucked on hoods. I'm 70kg and have a slammed stem. Drops definitely more comfortable without question for me personally
@@MarcraM82 So you don't have the strength to use drops without destroying your aerodynamic profile in order to position your arm in a more mechanically advantaged angle. Thanks for proving my point.
Glad to know my previous model Cannondale Supersix isn’t holding me back 😂
The human on the bike is by far the largest mass to carry, and the biggest silhouette to push through the air. I have a difficult time believing that an aero bike alone can save 10% of energy. Wind tunnel tests are fine, but in the real world there are head winds, cross winds, tail winds, and pacelines. This guy works for Cannondale. He has an agenda to sell Cannondales. While the video is interesting, and a lovely ad for Cannondale, this discussion is sort of meaningless for me because I'll never spend $15K on a bicycle. I wouldn't even spend $15K on a car.
Just thinking if I buy a super aero bike then as I hurtle faster downhill I can get the maximum benefit from my hydraulic disc brakes by squeezing on them harder before I throw myself into corners😀
Here's a little napkin math. No speed factor, so an artificial assumption that speed doesn't matter and I'm always going 20mph (or any other speed). To simplify, we'll say all the watts are working to over come drag, though it's probably just 90%. Everything I've researched says that about 80% of the bike/rider drag is the rider. So if I'm pushing 200 watts, 160 watts of that is me and 40 watts is the bike. If I could cut the drag of my bike in half, I could theoretically go 20mph pushing only 180 watts. Saving 20 watts (10%) certainly isn't nothing. But in reality, I can't cut my bike's drag in half no matter what I do. I can save 25% or so, tops. So instead of that theoretical 20 watts, I can really save just 10, down to 5% of the total of me and the bike. Going back to that 90% and adding back 10 watts for rolling resistance and drive line friction (which more appropriately would have come of the top), I'm not getting much out of my effort to make my bike more aerodynamically efficient. I'd be far better off working on my fitness and flexibility so I can hold an aero posture for longer.
Accurate 👌
Why is the wheelbase elongated?
Great questions, David--Thanks for the excellent interview!
Any time!
I never used to give the aero engineering bike manufacturers trumpeted credit until I got an aero bike (long story) and now I’m a firm believer in its dynamics… doesn’t mean I agree with them costing the price of a small car…🍻
the largest aerodynamic obstacle isn't the bike, and aero gains there are helpful, but compared to YOU the rider, as a big non-aero bag of water, and the aero your bike 'saves' doesn't change that very much.
I can never understand why fairings, i.e. non structural parts cant be added to a frame so that it might look like a System 6 but have a light frame, They do this in every other wheeled sport, and aircraft.
Genuine question: would an aero seat post still help when you've got a saddle bag (as most weekend riders tend to)?
Presumably, that would depend on how much seatpost is exposed?
A smart comment, you are saying do a wind tunnel test of touring bags and see how little aero seatposts help. They’ll get right to it.
Yes. The saddle bag actually acts a fairing. I believe it’s a 2w saving as the air cannot pool up behind your saddle
@@Slow.SmoothThe air will just ‘pool up’ and create a low pressure area behind the bag…I don’t see it making an improvement.
I'd like to see bike manufacturers bring sub 8kg endurance aero bikes on to the market - best of both worlds!
The current Trek Domane SLR 9 AXS Gen 4 meets all of these requirements.
It would cost you £$10k though😆
@@andrewhayes7055 £12.5k apparently for a trek domane 😆
@@andrewhayes7055 I feel like trek prices are ones the most out of hand in terms of value for money. Only topped of course by the self indulgent italian "premium" brands
SEKA EXCEED, have a look ! Endurance and sexy, light and affordable.
People forget that with aerodynamic efficiency gains, a ~25km/h rider saves MORE seconds on a 50km ride than a ~40km/h rider. The faster rider merely saves more time as a percentage.
Really good point thanks for sharing
some math/proof here? at 25kmh aero bike barely does anything (you will go 25 on standard bike and 25.3 on aero with same power) , while at 40kmh it start to play a role and you will go 41kmh instead of 40 with same power.
Great, thanks! More interviews with industry “brains” please!
Absolutely not just another marketing con by the industry to get you to buy another bike that you don't need.
At 30km the difference is a few watts.. Anyone riding at 30km per hour isnt a competitive rider and they shouldnt be worried about a few watts..
If aero is everything and 1 kg of total mass penalty does not count, how on earth this bike is better than SystemSix? Why did Specialized discontinue the Venge and tries to fool us with Aethos?
Very nice bike I saw it today and must say Cannondale has outdone itself again! But the delivery times are dramatic again, as is often the case with new models. And that's why I'm going for the Canyon ultimate slx 8. And fingers crossed that they are in stock at the end of June.
the average rider can't maintain an aggressive position that these bikes require.
how many % of system aero drag come from the bike? may be even no more than only one of your arm.
Considering weight as a system, but excluding aerodynamics from the same, is a false comparison. Just like shaving grams off a bike that will be ridden by a 200+lbs rider is worthless, so to are marginal aerodynamic gains on a bike ridden by someone with a 36+ inch gut. Most people, esp in the west where these bikes mostly sell, are simply not fit enough to be bothering with aerodynamics.
Most races I do these days average high speed. B grade which I race in averages 44kmph and c 43 and d averages from what I’ve seen around 40. Aero bikes still matter
is it suitable for off roads?
Why do all these brands make these bike compliance with such big tires. It's nice to have options, but how many people buy a roadbike and put bigger than 28mm on? The gap between front tire and downtube and rear tire and seatpost can be much smaller for improved aerodynamics. For example as you can see between the SuperSix and Systemsix.
For example me. 32c installed tubeless, 60 psi, never going back to 25c and 28c. Added comfort, confidence, safety, vibration reduction, is so great that the benefits far outweight the potential side effects and aero penalty.
Body position most important
Very pertinent discussion for my interests.
All the group rides where I live are slow on flat ground and only go hard on climbs. If I accelerate 1kph, then no one follows me. So aero doesn't count for these people, which is consistent with their position on the bike, which is not at all aero.
If you ride 15mph into a 15mph head wind you are getting bucket loads of wind. No need to be going super fast to get results from aero.
Most wind isn't straight ahead, it comes from angles and aero bike and components can disadvantage you as they catch the wind like sails
No difference if u riding as a group. Most of us will draft each other. Unless u r doing solo TT.
Great interview. Thx
Glad you enjoyed it!
First your positioning. If you've optimized that, you save watts by riding an aero bike. But I doubt very much most rider can ride that position.
Same argument that goes for the weight also applies for aerodynamics: the rider is the biggest body that you are pushing through the air. So why does he use this argument for weight and dismisses it for aero?
Exactly what I thought when he talked about weight
Maybe cut back on the pizza and beer? You’ll save money and ride faster with a smaller belly and by losing 10-20 lbs. Then once you’ve addressed your own shortcomings, maybe focus on the bike frame?
Nice bike from Canondale,one of the Best
Drag is not proportional to velocity, it is to the square. I do wonder how qualified bike designers really are....
"Drag force is proportional to the velocity for low-speed flow" from Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)
@@davidarthur However air is well into turbulent flow territory. Low speed implies viscous behavior which is not the case for bicycles in air at normal speeds. There is a reason why drag at 40kmh is much more than double drag at 20kmh, because it is squared.
I have to say, for someone who just wants to sell his bike and tell me it's the best ever, this was a remarkably fun interview. Also the questions were chosen well to nurture that I think.
People cycle for different reasons. For me it's to get out and observe the world, relax, zen experience. I can't imagine caring about speed or aero. I really wish the bike industry would move back to quiet hubs, too. Noisy hubs get in the way of the experience and are an ear sore for cyclists (and hikers/walkers) around those who have them. The industry is a bit of a mess. I guess it always has been, but it seems worse than ever right now. Decisions seem to be made appealing to some dream that weekend warriors are going to become pros, and that's just embarrassingly off with the reality of the situation. Those guys all decked out in gear and aero are becoming laughing stocks where I live, which is kind of refreshing to see the tide reverse. Kind of like dudes in big trucks. We all just assume insecure, small dick energy. Most people got into cycling for the freedom and exploration of the world as kids, and the closer we get back to that the better.
That's the reason why the best road bike is this expensive. The market scale is just not big enough.
@@jamesj2964 Very good point.
@Adam Milo YES!
@@jamesj2964 These aren't the best road bikes. They're race bikes. Race bikes aren't road bikes. And "best" is relative to goal. If you don't give a fuck about racing, a racing bike is stupid. And since only 200 of the 8 billion people alive will be lining up for the TdF, chances are you have no business spending money on a race bike.
@@cjohnson3836 I agree with you, but I still feel like a 20k bike is worth it because it is made with the most advanced technologies, and we need to support the business so the bike can be better and better.
Great so why do I need this bike? It just seems like cannondale are just playing catch up with specialized tarmac sl7…also he trashes the weight weenies argument but then says it not as fast as the system six?!
Then why are people not riding faster when they get an aero bike?
Most aero is probably the clothes. With cycling clothes i was 2km/h faster than I was with a windcathing jacket.
by the way is a beauty bike and the design is impressive. I wish we all could afford and have one like that but... is like that beauty has a $$$ price
My local cycling group restricts the rides to 12 to 15 mph yet they are all using deep rim carbon wheels lol
Is it a mtb ride?!
What’s wrong with that? The cycling group obviously values participation rather than training. Ride easy with the group, but train at other times. “Oh, it’s a group ride day. I better change to my heavy non-aero wheels.” lol
@@5891jonathan I would. It's much more comfortable. People have separate training wheels and racing wheels. There is so much groupthink going on in cycling but that's been the way it's been for over a century
@@Lenser don't you see how silly it is? It's so much Overkill. It's like using a shotgun instead of a flyswatter to kill a fly.
@@michaelliu6570 nope. Just the regular road ride.
cannondale needs to learn how to integrate that cable in the stem, Chinese cheap brands have way better implementation of internal cable routing.
I really dig that LAB71, it looks fast but, just how comfortable is it to ride, is it Atheos comfortable?
Simple solution; buy both.
Have both an aero orca 2022 and aethos. Why settle for one when you can just get both?
Any advantage of aero is negated at every traffic light. We don’t ride on closed roads
But you might get to the traffic lights quicker ;)
I mean we already know what the answer is going to be when the Cannondale engineer/employee is going to discuss aerodynamics and if they are really valuable for the “regular” cyclist. Lol. Of course it is.
Todays cycling industry is somewhat similar to mobile phone industry. Add few tweaks charge a bomb and voila you have a winner. All look the same i think maybe iam wrong.
And then you plop a human on the top of the aero bike, and all gains are gone. I don’t get it. The giant mattress on the top of the bike is not addressed
Lightweight bikes for going uphill, aero bikes for straight areas (no hills, mountains).
I noticed that Jonas Vingegaard has been using the Cervelo S5 rather than the R5 even on mountain finishes in Paris-Nice. Although he's fast enough to go like 25kph up a mountain though so maybe not the best example.
The biggest drag is the cyclist...most energy is spend on the bloke riding bike 😂😂😂
Aero is everything even for casual rider, makes the ride easier and faster. I noticed it when I changed my wheel to aero wheels 😁
easier? honest? So aerobikes are certainly not easier to ride than all-rounder bikes. Crosswinds alone are extremely exhausting.
But you can pretend anything to the masses, as long as it is more expensive and advertised as good, almost everyone jumps on the bandwagon
@C Mx just picked up a mint '15 Himod and I'll take it over these bikes all day. You're spot on.
Aerodynamic drag is not proportional to velocity! Thats the reason the 45kph claims are a bit misleading.
bike a small part of the system for aerodynamics too, not just for the weight.
So you interview a aero bike designer to evaluate whether an aero bike is faster.
Asking Cannondale Aerodynamics engineer if aerodynamics are important for regular cyclist is like calling telemarketing and asking if you should by their Topanzenite earings...
Like what else is he going to say???!!!
Don't get me wrong, I do think it is important for any cyclist...ride 30kph on hoods vs 30kph on the drops and tell me there is no difference.
But having Cannondale guy pushing their latest aero bike and having them talking about importance of aerodynamics as an excuse to push their aero bikes....meh.
Simply don't frame the conversation into clickbait: An Aerodynamics Expert Reveals the Truth...All he reveals is his latest bike design lol.
Ask a question about benefits of aero and problem is gone imho
You might need a couple of grams extra to be more aero that you don't want for climbing but consider you tend to ride a lot of flat between hills so when you get to the hill, more aero is less tired is more energy for the climb.
I like the square biddons. Thats attention to detail. Pity the cages aren't faired in though.