In The Arrival, after you kill Savathun and approach the chest you are immobilized by the debuff “Threadbound.” She uses the same thing after you kill her for the first time in The Ritual. Furthermore, she is trying to encase the Traveler in a ton of strings. The wizards in the final boss fight are even called Threadweavers. The connection is there.
I think she's using traditional hive magic. She also shackled us after we defeated her decoy during the first mission to witch queen. Its not impossible for her to be that strong using Hive Magic, because as stated in the darkness timeline lorebook, she was able to best the Vanguard. Killing Ikora, and crippling Zavala.
I agree Im pretty sure its just her regular hive magic...look at what she did to osiris...the language in the lore tab says so much. "shackling" "I felt her magic festering within me, I would not let her hold me" I think the lore tab is much more likely describing her taking over nezerac like she took over Osiris..which would explain the moth symbolism around nezeracs corpse shooting out moths and the osiris cutscene where we find out hes been inhabited by her.
Definitely. I think the idea is that we are the first to “master” Strand whereas Savathun was using it to supplement her own magic. Let’s also not forget that Strand is literally EVERYWHERE in the story of the Witchqueen, it just never explicitly gets called out by name, because we didn’t understand it.
It’s “everywhere” in witch queen because it’s cut content from the expansion, the same way there’s references to Oryx in the old d1 story because TTK was originally cut content. It’s not a lore thing, Bungie isn’t referencing strand, they just realized they got more money by selling it twice
This is why I believe Bungie was omitting something important about Strand when they announced it. Is it the case that no one ever had discovered and learned to harness the energy threads before, or is it that no one ALIVE had done such, or could it even be that it was just not to this degree? Also, regarding the whole thing around soulfire: even while being a different hue of green, the fact that it is still green and the language of weaving and unraveling threads is also very commonly seen with the Hive and Savathun illustrates that, with Strand, Bungie has been drawing on thematic patterns that were foreshadowed since the beginning (as it has with Stasis). The yellow-green tint, in fact, may be a hint that it’s a combination of 2 elements: Strand (soul) and Solar (fire). Combining elements may be the echo of the past that shapes the way of the future. With Strand in particular, there’s a lot of storytelling encoded within its color and visual effects. Not only does the ethereal wave pattern parallel with Deepsight and the resonant Luster used by the Disciples, it also resembles a striking similarity to the Obsidian Phase Radiance found in the Black Armory tech. The primary thing that distinguishes these visuals from each other is their hue, with them being either green, golden, or a pearly white chrome, contrasting against black outlines to make the same shape. Perhaps Ada will forge some new insights into Strand in the near future. ]]]…Long Slow Whisper…the Death Song…the Crown of Sorrow…Deepsight…Resonance…Vorlog…Aiat…[[[
My working theory on all the subclass types is that they each represent a fundamental force of the universe. Strand is a fifth fundamental force that seems to coincide with string theory to some extent, and represents interconnection of the fabric of reality. Hive magic may have been working on Strand for a very long time, they just couldn't perceive it directly like Guardians can now. Death Singing in particular could be considered a manipulation of Strand at such a high level that it can destroy planets, but it is essentially a brute force, secondary contact method, rather than direct manipulation. Saavathuun's magic could be the same, spells that manipulate Strand, have Strand effects, but not directly controlling Strand.
This reminds me of a reddit thread during the first couple of weeks of the season discussing the possibility of Strand being originally meant to ship with Witch Queen but postponed for Lightfall instead. The main argument of this theory was the 'arachnid' and 'thread/silk/fabric' themes seen repeatedly throughout the WQ campaign and all over the throne world; namely cobwebs, spiderwebs, Savathun and her wizards weaving threads around the Traveler and us having to acquire the 'THREAD CUTTER' buff in order to disrupt the ritual and defeat her.
I assume it's the same as her Hive magics that she used to trap (Threadbound) us in the Lure and then yeet us off her ship. Unless Hive magic actually taps into Strand...
I once read someone's amazing theory that soul fire IS strand, just being burned by the hive because they don't understand what it really is. This is given credence if we consider the name of the buffs in witchqueen at the final mission, where we need to be "thread cutters", we face "thread weavers" as Savathun is weaving a "web" around the traveler. Perhaps the hive magic that is soul fire is just them using Strand while not understanding it, so they burn it instead of untangling it.
This idea runs into a pretty major problem though with how Strand is described in Lightfall, namely that if you try to control Strand or force your will upon it it will lash back at you as was seen in the cutscene where our Guardian literally disintegrates themselves by doing just that. The use of similar sounding nomenclature in Hive Magic does not mean that it is, or is based upon, Strand, a power that through authorial Word of God we discovered first.
@@S3Cs4uN8 that is very true but it's the fact that it's being consumed in a blaze that makes me like the theory so much. They're not pulling apart the "fabric of the universe" so much as they're just holding a lighter to it. They don't need to exert control over it because they aren't unraveling it to begin with. That's the only head cannon logic I have for it but it makes enough sense to me
The burning makes me wonder if it wasn’t soulfire. “Like an arrow through my chest” almost sounds like a proto-Thorn, since the projectiles from that hand cannon look like darts.
Sav most definitely dose as many other comments have said, I have an interesting theory based on themes. The Witchqueen plays out a lot like Red War, and who is a part of the “good” side Cytal. The Fallen and beyond light as a whole with Mythrax, and The Witchqueen. My theory is this Sav and the lucent hive will join us by the time of The Final Shape. There are just too many parallels threw out Bungies most recent expansions to not think that this is not a high possibility. Not to mention the parallels to the Hive Gods and our 3 classes, seems a bit convenient if you ask me. Love your work byf, I am a returning player after having to take a year off. So many things happened and I for one am excited to see where the story goes from here.
When Bungie was originally writing Witch Queen I believe they originally intended to introduce a new darkness subclass then, a power we probably were supposed to steal from Savathun after she gained the Light. Unraveling rounds were actually still called infested rounds when Lightfall released. I believe they had a lot of the story written with this as the original plan, but when they realized how much rework they would have to give the old subclasses they pivoted the story and while there are a lot of hints to what the original story plan was, Bungie's writers have been spinning kinda wildly to get the new story changes to fit.
So this topic gave me an idea about the veil. If we go with the assumptions made in the campaign that the veil is the reason we can see and wield strand, and Osiris is right that the light is tied to the physical and the darkness is tied to the mind/immaterial, then there is a question of how darkness can affect our physical plane. We have already seen how the viel seems to be a tool that amplified the witness' powers, and that it physically looks like a communion point of darkness and light. What if darkness normally cant affect the physical plane, but the viel can convert that darkness to force that affects reality. Another way to say it would be that it makes thoughts reality. This could also explain why the viel's roots grew during the fight with Calus, it was converting the immense darkness he was calling as he became more desperate. This also explain the roots that sprout from darkness entities as they are destroyed, because they are loosing control of that converted power. This might also be why the dark fleet and the witness went dormant after savathuns betrayal, they had to conserve power they couldnt regularly replenish. The witness' quote "finality take shape" would also make sense in this context as it uses the veil to convert its idea of "finality" into physical form and imprint it on the traveler. It might also work in the opposite way, which could be what the black heart was doing, coverting the physical light into darkness energy for the vex to benefit from somehow.
Apparently I have the hot take of no. I think it was soulfire. It doesn't make sense that 1, savathun would have strand and then lose it in witchqueen when we give her all her memories back 2, that a non-paracausal being would see strand when literally nobody on neomuna knew about it despite living next to the veil and 3, that bungie would say we're the first to use it if we weren't. The description fits soulfire more than strand. Edit: it also wouldn't make sense that nezerac was unfamiliar with strand if he had the veil on his ship. It doesn't make sense that the witness wouldn't prepare the shadow legion for strand if they knew about it. There's just too many damn plot holes in my mind.
Think of how she held the Traveler in place. We had to sever threads she used. She was likened to a moth, not a spider. The strands were all green. I'm almost certain she was using Strand.
My guess is that is was just soul-fire, since they also have trapping techniques, but also since if something dies by strand, it will completely unravel and disappear. His body remained, so from that I just assume that it was just soul-fire instead of strand.
I think she was aware of the ever present energy that strand is and perhaps how the veil connects to the weird sort of spiritual river they were describing but I don’t think she was fully capable of wielding it. Maybe the soul fire magic pulls from the same place but is rudimentary by comparison
In our boss fight with Savathun, she restricts our movement using Hive magic when we try to reach Imaru (before we cross the bridge). I like your theory, but this could also be how she shackled Nezarec.
strand is a power manifesting from all the connected conciousness and the river of SOUL is mentioned heavily when it comes to strand and hive magic called SOUL fire seems a bit on the nose with the connection.
I wonder if soulfire is a branch off the idea of Strand. It actually really makes me wonder if after the Final Shape, we will find out these things like Soul Fire, Kinetic, Techeun, and Psionic energy are in fact their own things to be powers moved away from Light and Dark.
well Awoken magic is definitely its own type of paracausal power, but I think the running theory is that it's some combination of Light and Darkness in the same way that the Awoken themselves are. Soulfire is definitely just a form of Darkness because the Hive reject any expression of the Light on principle, and Psionic energy does seem to be pretty well removed from other forms of paracausality.
Hey guardians. This is completely unrelated to the video but something just occurred to me… in the witch queen, it was revealed that the scorn allied themselves with the darkness/witness to the point where they were even all over the vow of the disciple raid. I know in Lightfall it was more about Calus and his army so I didn’t expect to see any scorn but it makes me wonder. If some scorn were given higher positions like The Caretaker in the raid, by the time The Final Shape comes around, do you think we’ll see even more scorn rise up the ranks and be more major players in the story? The only other major enemy we know of right now is Xivu Arath and her army but we definitely aren’t done with the scorn yet so I’m wondering if they will play a major role in the final shape. Because they were all over the witch queen but didn’t really have much going as far as the story. Lore wise yes but story wise they were kinda just there.
There is a plot hole here in this video, something I've considered but haven't been able to reconcile. Nezarec asks you if anyone has the pieces of him, why would he ask this? In every instance of a person holding a piece of Nezarec, it seems Nezarec is actively haunting the person and driving them insane. So it implies that the consciousness that's attached to that piece is perhaps separate from the reborn Nezarec and perhaps from the other pieces themselves. Kinda like the horcruxes from Harry Potter and how Voldemort didn't know his horcruxes had been destroyed til most of them were gone.
Hey there, Byf! First I just want to say I have been a subscriber from... pfffff, God knows when. I come from a line of scholars and linguists. I have followed, in most ways, the path of my fathers. Anyway, I totally understood where you were going (both for and against) as soon as the lore tab was being read. I noticed you used the hyphen in "this-her" magic as a comma. At least audibly, so my input -should I be so lucky to have this comment read- is this. Remember, the hyphen has been used with, not just, the Hive quite a lot. It's usually used to describe two things 🤔... being-happening at the same time. So while bungie says we're the first to wield it. Maybe Savathun, in the presence of the veil, carried it along by accident with her using soulfire? It would make sense with the oddness of not getting a green subclass in witch queen too. Anyway, I hope you read this, I'll see you starside!
Sounds like she accidentally/unknowingly incorporated strand in her magics due to the veil being close and amplifying strand's presence. Probably that her magics either have similar properties to strand or some aspects would be affected by it especially so with the Veil nearby.
what if strand and hive soulfire are based in similar ideas, with the strands of reality being literally burnt via the hive's penchant for destruction, hell, burning a hole in the strands of reality could explain some of the things they do, and wave away the dismissal that is "strand is an undiscovered power" when it was discovered, just not fully understood, the hive saw the strand, but lacked the creativity to do anything other than make use of it's flaming embers.
It would not surprise me at all that savathun actually wielded strand given that she had direct unfettered access to the veil which was believed to reveal the existence of strand
I'm going *full* spinfoil here, but hear me out: It may well have been both soulfire and strand, as they may be more connected than we know. Strand is this immaterial weave that permeates all existence, most visible when in proximity to the Veil, which gives form to its dark shapelessness. The Hive's magic deals regularly with the immaterial: ascendant planes, soulfire, upending our concepts of mortality and physics. Their own language, thus, is shaped into paracausal knives that whittle reality to their will - and I believe they do so by weakening the weave of Strand. They don't pull on it or manipulate it as Guardians do, instead tearing it, cutting it, and burning it in their rituals. They make space in the immaterial for their will to take root and, in so doing, shape the material world in turn. Whether they know that's what they're doing is another question entirely - their magic is also couched in so much religion and mysticism as to make all but the most knowledgeable of Hive mages into unreliable narrators. I believe Savathun knew Strand as the kindling for soulfire, and on the day she confronted Nezarec, the Veil may have shown her its true potential.
That a whole "We were the first to use strand didn't sit right with me the second we drop on Neomuna. We immediately see a Cabal with a Strand Shield before we get it AND to top it off, Asher Mir already made Vexcalibur. So I don't believe the whole "guardians got it first." Even if Bungie said it. I think she Totally used Strand there.
That makes alot of sense, never gave it a thought. Maybe it was there version of strand, like an experimental version of their power, she didn't know what it was and weaved it. We call it strand because we did not because it's called strand. The fallen call the traveler the machine god, are they right or wrong?
If strand was meant to be in witch queen but got pushed to be more polished, I could honestly see savathun using strand. I like the idea of it originally being a gift to us from her but who knows.
If Savathun so dares pulls out strand when she comes back I take that as full fledge confirmation that Strand was supposed to come out with The Witch Queen Expansion Lmaoo
I am going to say this I think it might have been a mix of the two Strand and Soul Fire I also think we will see her return in the Final Shape as an ally a true ally now that she knows the darkness deceived her shes a clever being she might even be the one who teaches us the final darkness subclass
Byf, What are your thoughts on why we need a connection to the Traveler to wield light based powers? We don’t technically have a connection to a paracausal entity to wield Darkness, so why would the Light powers be different? Reviving I understand, and would actually see it more of a Gardener power that the Traveler has (not us), rather than a Light Power because that it literally what it does, create life. But from their descriptions on what each power is, there really shouldn’t be a need for the Traveler to be involved (other than perhaps working the same way as the Veil where is it makes Strand easier to grasp but its still possible everywhere). Would this tie in any way to how we still have powers right now and what the Final Shape will end up being? There is still the question of why during the Red War, sealing the Traveler sealed our powers, but that could either be a plot hole or something to consider for possible story implications about why we currently need the Traveler to use the Light when it shouldn’t be necessary
I predict that the Witch Queen’s story isn’t over, in fact I think we will end up deciding to help her ghost resurrect her, likely to prod her on info of what the Witness did. Except she won’t have remembered so we’ll have a season where we get back her memories to figure out how to combat the Witness’s plan in the final shape
Spoiler Ahead! Don’t forget that next season is “season of the deep” and all though many people assume it must be related to Zevu, it could be about Savathun’s return. Additionally we know we are getting more strand Aspects and Sav might be just the person to introduce them.
Byf, just to complete your analysis, I also think that a great hint at strand is the last sentence "No... she could not hold me", Nezarec was suspended with strand, as we suspend ads to kill 'em
Is there anything that I am unaware of, other than our current limitations within Destiny, that makes these mutually exclusive? She is a "God" of the Hive. Could she not be intermingling the two?
We also can't deny the connection to Osiris. He takes to Strand so quickly, whereas we kill ourselves multiple times just trying to learn to use it. A remaining piece of Savathun inside him, perhaps? Also, if Nezarec's body still showed traces of Strand energy, binding him all these eons later and preventing his revival, that could explain the threads that Mithrax saw while making his batch of Nezcafe.
@Elitejt8 You're right, Osiris basically just says he uses us as a guinea pig since we can revive and he can't. I stand corrected. Still seems an interesting coincidence that he is the one who is able to understand it the best.
@@michaelchesnut865 I will agree with you on that, Osiris is a good learner, though I would said much of it is thanks to nimbus. Without nimbus Osiris and us for that matter would have been in bad shape.
Yeah although imo ghaul was he was the only one to actually “defeat” us by kicking us out the city and taking the light no other villain done that until the witness now kinda
I love how Savathun is both the Antagonist and the Hero in destiny. she's basically stopped the entire universe from getting destroyed, protected the traveler, guided us to reach higher levels of abilities, brought unity between us and our unlikely allies, proven that you can't place all your faith in the light or the dark, and have us in edge in killing both her siblings. Honestly, if she'd just stop trying to kill us she'd be the best anti-hero ever written. I mean hell, even in Elsie Bray's multiple future time-lines, as terrifying as Savathun would become in her own right, the Witch Queen we actually had to fear was Eris Mourn. And even Savathun gave warnings on her playing with shadows lol we are playing chest. she's playing inter-dimensional shogi 😂
If Savathun stopped trying to kill us it would actually make her character feel dull to me. She his that perfect spot of Antagonist, between Rival we are trying to grow with and Anti-hero we are at odds with.
Hey! I had a bit of a theory about the final shape. In your latest video, you talked about how each disciple has a different interpretation of the Final Shape. One of Savathun’s truths/lies is that “the witness seeks the final shape, and the final shape is nothing”. What if she meant that literally? As in, there is no such thing as the final shape? The reasons none of the disciples can figure out what the final shape is, is because there is no final shape?
I always interpreted “The Final Shape is Nothing” as either the complete heat death of the universe or every single bit of matter, energy, and information ceasing to exist.
The best way to look at it is this; the Witness is essentially lying through omission to its Disciples. The Final Shape for the Witness is basically the complete annihilation of everything, because it goes to the natural conclusion of its own arguments. If it were a string of logic, it would be like this existence is pain > reduce pain as much as possible > no reality = no entity that can experience pain can ever be created or pop into existence > destroy existence itself > seek nothingness It's harder to sell universal genocide, including collective suicide afterwards, to a rag tag group of alien sociopaths who see themselves individually as above gods, so let them imagine the Final Shape to be some personal ideal or perfect paradise while they work towards your efforts. It's genius, and sadistic.
It wouldn't surprise me if we come to find out that Strand is the kindling upon which Soulfire becomes ablaze with worm god powers. They are essentially the same but the worm gods can twist Strand in ways that Guardians have yet to discover. It'd be so cool to shackle an enemy, snap your fingers, then watch them burn to a crisp while shackled without using any solar ability whatsoever
I've been thinking something similar. There's always been a lot of strange weaving/unraveling imagery associated with some of the higher-up ascendant hive, most notably in the Daughters of Oryx fight -- they're literally called the weaver and unraveller -- but there's also a few scattered references to hive magic with thread motifs. The traps that you can find in hive-controlled areas that lock you into place seem to have this same green string-like visual language that's very reminiscent of Strand.
@@webausay well there is that theory that strand was originally going to be in witch queen but was delayed due to the light subclasses needing a rework first. I would not be surprised if season of the deep sees us learning about a connecting between strand and the hive.
@@McLovinTRoyce That's not really so much a theory as it is just a provable fact. Literally just replace all of the Deepsight nodes in WQ with Strand's grapple points and you've got the original vision of the expansion. I'm pretty sure the reason that they replaced Strand with the Light reworks is because they needed another expansion for the Sony acquisition and thus Lightfall as we know it was created. I digress. At any rate, I think you're absolutely right about season 21 giving us some info on how Savathun and the Hive generally are able to seemingly use Strand (or something very similar) despite stating that guardians are the first to discover it. If they don't and it just sticks around like a sore thumb I'll be very disappointed
@@webausay Agreed. A good compromise is that the Guardian independently discovered Strand on Neptune. Even if they decide to make the story such that Savathun's lineage has been using it for a long time, it doesn't detract from the fact that the Guardian discovered and mastered it (or at least a variant of it) in hours/days on Neomuna, so I feel it doesn't detract from the player Guardian's accomplishment. In fact, imo the best outcome is that Savathun is pleased to see that we did.
I wonder if it’s possible that the Veil could have assisted Savathun in killing Nezarec by entrapping him with Strand while she used her powers. If so, Savathun wouldn’t have used Stand herself but it would have assisted with her killing of Nezarec.
it doesn't seem like the Veil is at all sentient, so I don't don't think that's a real possibility. Byf's probably right about the Veil revealing the web that strand utilizes to her in the fight with Nezarec.
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong When does he personify the veil? He simply says that Savathun stole the veil, and that it contains secrets of the Witness' first victims (and possibly the Traveler's too?)
Its also interesting that the deathsingers in Kings fall use songs called the Dirge of Unraveling and the Hymn of Weaving, which instantly kill you if they are allowed to be fully sung. Perhaps the more powerful hive have the ability to pluck the strings of the weave in the form of sound, rather than physically controlling it?
Well the devs said we discovered it. However, I think she was utilizing it in her hive weaving without quite knowing WHAT it was. Savathun used a lot of power. I don’t think she neccesarily needed to know what it was so long as it bent to her will.
Yeah it is also worth noting that we gave the power shape, so strand manifesting as green strings was our doing, so if savathun did use it in some form it wasn’t intended or it’s shape was different.
With Strand initially being slated to have been released in WQ I think tha tyeah Savathun was using strand. Bungie may change that to be something else since they stated we were the first to find it, or I hope that they clarify that we are the first ones we know of to use it and that it has been a part of destiny before.
I know there is a lot of evidence of strand originally being planned for Witchqueen, but the amount of people outright saying it was supposed to be in Witchqueen is odd to me. Lets make sure we separate hypothesis and facts
@@zbrinz720 one of arenas during the mission where you show her the worm memories you can clearly see it was supposed to be strand. The way the strings are overhead.
@@tomz6594 again, there is evidence of strand being intended for witchqueen, but people talk about it as if it has been confirmed by bungie to have been intended for witchqueen, only speculation, which is an important distinction
This is how you know Savathun was the antagonist we didn’t know we needed. She really was out here playing chess when everyone around her was playing checkers. They should’ve introduced Xivu 2nd and Savathun 3rd instead. It seems as if Savathun was using strand cause the wording he used seemed like strand and he was unfamiliar with it
It was debunked before it was even made. Bungie has confirmed that Osiris and us are the first to harness Strand. Savathun just used hive magic, which also bears a green hue. I think she had just never done _that_ to him before is what he meant when he said it was unfamiliar.
Like you said, if she stuck the veil on Neptune right after the collapse, its not impossible she discovered strand there. Its also not impossible that while toting the veil to Neptune she found it somewhere along the way. Also not a stretch to think that someone who goes so far to plan things out that she would keep the fact that she discovered something new a secret to be used in a moment of weakness... but that begs why she didn't use it during the witch queen campaign. Guess we may find out whenever Imaru finds his way to her corpse.
Maybe Strand is the primordial to Hive Magic, it wouldn't be too far-fetched since it's been shown that enemies can use basic, diluted or unstable forms of the elemental energies that make our abilities.
Hey Byf! I’m not sure if you could make a whole video about this but I figured it would be a fun thing to bring up as an idea if you could. The writers have never given us a solid number to how long ago the collapse was in the Destiny chronology, but in the new expansion we have the Cloudstriders who are canonically live for 10 years tops, and a room where supposedly every Cloudstriders grace is at. The last time I was in there I counted about 283 Cloudstrider graves which assuming things went best and every cloud strider got in 9 and enough months to round up with a new Cloudstrider 1 year into replacing them that would indicate that Neomuna, or at least the Cloudstriders, have existed for at best 2,551 years post collapse. Don’t know if that’s a big enough thing for you to make any sort of video out of but I figured it might be a fun thing for fanon, and lore theory.
Honestly, I could definitely see this being the case. As some people have pointed out in the comments already, there were aspects from her & other parts of The Witch Queen expansion that had to do with threads and string. Along with that is the fact that she is cunning and more than likely has MANY secrets, so secretly having access to Strand, despite being told that we guardians are the first to ever wield it, would make sense.
Can we explore if soulfire and strand are any kind of connected I think a lot of fans would honestly like a connection for the hive builds everyone has wanted to make since d1
my biggest question is, who even made the conditional exotic shotgun? was it a amalgamation from multiple parts found on the pyramid ship, or did savathun make a double barrel shotgun just to shoot nezarec
This is one of those “video game moments” for example who made all the raid weapons in general? They’re names after some of the members of the cult but that makes no sense as to we’re in the witnesses ship getting these weapons, and why/when would Nezerec make weapons for us?
@@navi0760 yeah thats what confuses me like are these made from a strange company that produces weapons like viest or suros or omolon or hakk, or is it made from the guardian or something, like dang its like a mystery
Yep and strand was supposed to be in Witchqueen, so yeah Bungie lying to us. Lightfall is a filler dlc that is needed to bridge this story until 2025. I don't blame them for it, but if we go from the GDC presentation and wanna play the bad guy here. Then we could say Bungie saw Strand as an overdelivery and that's not good for a train station as we know 😂.
I got a crack theory. Strand and Resonance are the same force, just being used by different moral forces. Think about it. Both have the visual effect of colored, wavy lines floating in the air. Both share the same visual language for the fabric of the universe. And not to mention, the knife the hunter weilds in the subclass menu has the same look as Lubraes Ruin.
The problem I have with the primarily is that if Savathun used strand against Nezerak, there’s nothing really stopping her from continuing to use it. The only thing restricting someone from wielding strand is that they need to know it exists, usually by visiting the veil, and they need to train to let the “flow take you.” Savathun if she knew this power existed and was strong, she would have developed and wielded this power as opposed to never using it again. It would be very strange for her to wield strand and then never wield it again.
I'm suspicious of the description Nezarec uses to describe the power Savathun uses against him. I distinctly remember her using her soulfire to stop us from breaking Imaru in the WQ campaign, where a green vignette is applied to us, and our movement is stopped.
@@AnimuWarlock When Ghost says "that was too easy" and then Sav says "it WAS too easy, wasn't it?" I've never seen Imaru there and get trapped when reaching for the loot chests. And in the cutscene after Ghost only tells Ikora of that Hive Knight with a ghost which I think would be less of a big deal than Sav herself.
It might be Strand or it might just be a reference to Hive Magic, as it was supposed to be what we got before they ripped it apart and reformed it into Strand.
If she did, then that means the devs lied when they said that Guardians were the first to discover this power, and the power was discovered AFTER we killed Savathun.
Technically they did not lied since she was no guardian when that happend. She had no ghost and no light abilities! :D She was just a hive bitch using strand if so. She was only reborn as a guardian recently and we even helped her re-gain her memories
I think the Hive's Soulfire powers are unknowingly aping a part (or parts) of what Strand is capable of. Savathun inflicting the 'Threadbound' debuff (binding you in place on the ground) on us in the WQ campaign is an accidental flawed copy of Strand's Suspend debuff (lifting you into the air).
I've been thinking for awhile that Hive magic may just be a watered down version of Strand. Kind of like The Nightsisters' ichor from Star Wars being based on The Dark Side of The Force. Especially considering Ir Halak's Hymn of *Weaving* and Ir Anûk's Dirge of *Unraveling.* Savathûn's proximity to the Veil at this time may have just made her abilities with Strand more refined, if that makes sense?
It's werid because there are several times in the WQ campaign where you are immobilized and have a debuff called "Threadbound," and those wizards during the final fight are called "Threadweavers," you get a buff called "thread cutter," and she is spinning a web around the Traveler. However, none of the visuals really look like Strand. It could just be 'something something moth lady, something something silk, something something cocoon.' And yeah, they do say in the ViDoc that we are the first beings in the universe to wield Strand. I would not be surprised if there is some weirdness and inconsistency because of the theory that the Lightfall we got was unplanned, Strand was supposed to come with WQ, and The Final Shape's story was supposed to come with Lightfall with presumably a third and final Darkness subclass.
As much as I would love to jump aboard this theory, I don't really see Savathûn using Strand against Nezarec. I think the weapon lore tab is more meant to focus on the act of her killing him, rather than to hide between the lines that the Witch Queen was wielding Strand to do it, and that she was instead wielding a twisted kind of Hive magic like she is known for doing. Sure, the Witch Queen has a ton of references to "threads" and "weavings" and we learn about these throughout the Witch Queen expansion. However, I believe we're dealing with a reference to spinning a web like a spider, weaving threads like the Fates, and tugging in strings between people there. If she had the ability to wield Strand, why not use it against the Guardian when she realized she was about to lose? It sounds to me, from the description, she's wielding it with confidence, and if so, would she not also be able to wield it without the Veil's proximity like Guardians do after learning it from Osiris and Nimbus? Especially considering we're beating her in the Throne World, where her will is law. Sure, wielding the Light is about tools, and wielding the Darkness is about a change of perspective and a different view of the immaterial, but I feel like Savathûn, of all the enemies we've faced, would be the absolute best at adapting to something like that. So, yeah, I think what we're reading in the Lore Tab, is Nezarec's description of Hive magic that he does not at all understand. It's simply Savathûn doing her magic tricks.
If you subscribe to the speculation that Strand was supposed to be the new power for Witch Queen, it would fit her moth motif to use a silk power. Or she could use hive magic to make a causal version of strand (i.e. fire to solar energy, arc to electricity, ice to Stasis). I don't think they'd do the whole "it's a new power you made yourself" then turn around and say "Yeah, BTW Savathun knew about it centuries ago, just never used it."
I think if you look back at how Witch Queen had obvious Strand influence in development, and the amount of “Thread” based things surrounding Savathun in the campaign, you could at LEAST extrapolate that she had a rudimentary understanding of Strand, at least from a Hive point of view. It being Darkness based, having to do with weaving and unraveling threads of the world to your shape and design really screams that Savathun had some sort of basic comprehension of Strand. You take into account that she was near the Veil when she capped Nezarec, and that she’s later she has heavy Strand motifs and influences in her own expansion, it’s safe to say she could use it to some degree.
I think you're connecting dotted lines that aren't there. This seems like 2 separate things. I believe these lines from Nezzy were originally written and kept from a time when Strand was meant to be some infecting poison class. We have some ingame leaks of unraveling rounds originally being infestation rounds. Stay with me, because we're about to go down a rabbit hole: The original plan was to end this saga with Lightfall before plans were revised and we were originally meant to get a subclass with WQ, but plans were changed due to whatever reason. I believe the original plan was give us some infestation/poison based subclass with WQ(which was hinted at due to the idea of removing a worm from her plus all of the weapons and armor that released before it that hinted towards it.) But they instead chose to hold off. They instead chose to use the idea of threads as a subclass, but solely as a story point for a what seems to be a filler DLC. This would explain why we see something LIKE strands and have it hinted at in WQ, but then Bungie says we're the only being to ever wield it. So my take on the original plan is as follows: WQ launch with infestation/poison based subclass, with Savathun originally using some form of strand. Final DLC in the saga would find us woefully underpowered to fight the Witness, so we'd also get Strand rounding us out at 3 Light and 3 Dark subclasses. But due to the need to spread out the DLCs until Bungie can release a new IP, they had to delay and rewrite it. So we had an entire narrative written around Strand, thus making it lore-accurate to say we're the first to use the ability.
This was absolutely an oversight on Bungie's part as I will not call the narrative team lazy, since strand was supposed to come out in WQ I think it was a power we would unlock by just being in Savathuns throne world and a power she had forgotten due to becoming a Guardian. It would also explain Osiris having a knack for it as he would've experienced it through Savathuns memories. Overall I think they just forgot to rewrite the lore or didn't care as it could be interpreted as anything
idk if this is just silly word games but they specifically stated that its a power discovered by guardians and, savathun is a guardian now. granted, she wasn't when she killed nezarec, but it could be clever wording from the staff
Also something to notice, right here is the first step of how Savathun stalled The Witness to protect The Traveler and indirectly saving humankind from annihilation. In season of the Deep will we learn the follow up steps on the grand scheme? How she deceived The Witness and sent him back, among the stars?
It was soul fire. I believe this because we were supposed to have that power (soul fire, sorrow or poison) until they changed it for strand. And like you mention bungie said we discovered strand first. I do feel like strand was supposed to be introduced in witch queen.
Can't wait for the door behind Crow in the H.E.L.M to open in Season of The Deep and Savathun being in there sitting on a makeshift throne with imaru by her side and Eris and Ikora revealing they have been chatting it out
I see it like this: Hive magic is derived from the darkness. Strand is the second darkness subclass. I think that while the guardian may be the first being to discover Strand, i think strand is just a different way to harness the Weave. I think hive magic is much more passive in regards to the power of the weave, whereas the guardian forms the shape.
So I do think she did use strand since I believe the hive are one of the only species to naturally see the weave and by extension strand, obviously the hive in general doesn’t know how to use strand but considering it’s savathun she perhaps could’ve tapped into and used a bastardised version of it mixed with hive soulfire magic.
In The Arrival, after you kill Savathun and approach the chest you are immobilized by the debuff “Threadbound.” She uses the same thing after you kill her for the first time in The Ritual. Furthermore, she is trying to encase the Traveler in a ton of strings. The wizards in the final boss fight are even called Threadweavers. The connection is there.
Just coming to say the exact same thing, as I'd just finished taking my Warlock through the WQ campaign. Seconded.
Strand feels like it was intended for WQ. Tormentors concept art have the wq armor in them too
@@iverstaylot00 It was intended for WQ
Strand is also said to be invisible to those who aren't able to use it... which included the Guardians back in TWQ
I wonder if there’s any connection to the next subclass in Lightfall.
Savathun is such a fantastic character, love the lore you do about Oryx, Savathun and Xivu
He's already has pretty much
@@Vextus yeah I know just saying any lore about those 3 sucks me right in
@@matthewscott8922 ah fair enough lol seems you have to wait for the third sister to appear
@@Vextus can't wait to be honest, I really hope she's going to be prominent in final shape and not just wasted in a season story
She’s gonna be a big version of the high celebrant with more spikes mixed with the wsrpriest and maybe more horns on the head with a giant great sword
I think she's using traditional hive magic. She also shackled us after we defeated her decoy during the first mission to witch queen. Its not impossible for her to be that strong using Hive Magic, because as stated in the darkness timeline lorebook, she was able to best the Vanguard. Killing Ikora, and crippling Zavala.
I agree Im pretty sure its just her regular hive magic...look at what she did to osiris...the language in the lore tab says so much. "shackling" "I felt her magic festering within me, I would not let her hold me" I think the lore tab is much more likely describing her taking over nezerac like she took over Osiris..which would explain the moth symbolism around nezeracs corpse shooting out moths and the osiris cutscene where we find out hes been inhabited by her.
Definitely. I think the idea is that we are the first to “master” Strand whereas Savathun was using it to supplement her own magic. Let’s also not forget that Strand is literally EVERYWHERE in the story of the Witchqueen, it just never explicitly gets called out by name, because we didn’t understand it.
Strand was suppose to be in witch queen but was pus to light fall
Cause in witch queen she gave us debuff called trandbound
@@juandriver6025 I’m aware
It’s “everywhere” in witch queen because it’s cut content from the expansion, the same way there’s references to Oryx in the old d1 story because TTK was originally cut content. It’s not a lore thing, Bungie isn’t referencing strand, they just realized they got more money by selling it twice
@@fort809 bro they needed dev time
This is why I believe Bungie was omitting something important about Strand when they announced it. Is it the case that no one ever had discovered and learned to harness the energy threads before, or is it that no one ALIVE had done such, or could it even be that it was just not to this degree?
Also, regarding the whole thing around soulfire: even while being a different hue of green, the fact that it is still green and the language of weaving and unraveling threads is also very commonly seen with the Hive and Savathun illustrates that, with Strand, Bungie has been drawing on thematic patterns that were foreshadowed since the beginning (as it has with Stasis). The yellow-green tint, in fact, may be a hint that it’s a combination of 2 elements: Strand (soul) and Solar (fire). Combining elements may be the echo of the past that shapes the way of the future.
With Strand in particular, there’s a lot of storytelling encoded within its color and visual effects. Not only does the ethereal wave pattern parallel with Deepsight and the resonant Luster used by the Disciples, it also resembles a striking similarity to the Obsidian Phase Radiance found in the Black Armory tech. The primary thing that distinguishes these visuals from each other is their hue, with them being either green, golden, or a pearly white chrome, contrasting against black outlines to make the same shape. Perhaps Ada will forge some new insights into Strand in the near future.
]]]…Long Slow Whisper…the Death Song…the Crown of Sorrow…Deepsight…Resonance…Vorlog…Aiat…[[[
My working theory on all the subclass types is that they each represent a fundamental force of the universe. Strand is a fifth fundamental force that seems to coincide with string theory to some extent, and represents interconnection of the fabric of reality. Hive magic may have been working on Strand for a very long time, they just couldn't perceive it directly like Guardians can now. Death Singing in particular could be considered a manipulation of Strand at such a high level that it can destroy planets, but it is essentially a brute force, secondary contact method, rather than direct manipulation. Saavathuun's magic could be the same, spells that manipulate Strand, have Strand effects, but not directly controlling Strand.
This reminds me of a reddit thread during the first couple of weeks of the season discussing the possibility of Strand being originally meant to ship with Witch Queen but postponed for Lightfall instead. The main argument of this theory was the 'arachnid' and 'thread/silk/fabric' themes seen repeatedly throughout the WQ campaign and all over the throne world; namely cobwebs, spiderwebs, Savathun and her wizards weaving threads around the Traveler and us having to acquire the 'THREAD CUTTER' buff in order to disrupt the ritual and defeat her.
I assume it's the same as her Hive magics that she used to trap (Threadbound) us in the Lure and then yeet us off her ship. Unless Hive magic actually taps into Strand...
I once read someone's amazing theory that soul fire IS strand, just being burned by the hive because they don't understand what it really is. This is given credence if we consider the name of the buffs in witchqueen at the final mission, where we need to be "thread cutters", we face "thread weavers" as Savathun is weaving a "web" around the traveler. Perhaps the hive magic that is soul fire is just them using Strand while not understanding it, so they burn it instead of untangling it.
This idea runs into a pretty major problem though with how Strand is described in Lightfall, namely that if you try to control Strand or force your will upon it it will lash back at you as was seen in the cutscene where our Guardian literally disintegrates themselves by doing just that. The use of similar sounding nomenclature in Hive Magic does not mean that it is, or is based upon, Strand, a power that through authorial Word of God we discovered first.
@@S3Cs4uN8 that is very true but it's the fact that it's being consumed in a blaze that makes me like the theory so much. They're not pulling apart the "fabric of the universe" so much as they're just holding a lighter to it. They don't need to exert control over it because they aren't unraveling it to begin with. That's the only head cannon logic I have for it but it makes enough sense to me
during the first week of light fall on guardians ranks the unraveling rounds were called infested rounds but they changed it in a hotfix
The burning makes me wonder if it wasn’t soulfire. “Like an arrow through my chest” almost sounds like a proto-Thorn, since the projectiles from that hand cannon look like darts.
Sav most definitely dose as many other comments have said, I have an interesting theory based on themes. The Witchqueen plays out a lot like Red War, and who is a part of the “good” side Cytal. The Fallen and beyond light as a whole with Mythrax, and The Witchqueen. My theory is this Sav and the lucent hive will join us by the time of The Final Shape. There are just too many parallels threw out Bungies most recent expansions to not think that this is not a high possibility. Not to mention the parallels to the Hive Gods and our 3 classes, seems a bit convenient if you ask me.
Love your work byf, I am a returning player after having to take a year off. So many things happened and I for one am excited to see where the story goes from here.
When Bungie was originally writing Witch Queen I believe they originally intended to introduce a new darkness subclass then, a power we probably were supposed to steal from Savathun after she gained the Light. Unraveling rounds were actually still called infested rounds when Lightfall released. I believe they had a lot of the story written with this as the original plan, but when they realized how much rework they would have to give the old subclasses they pivoted the story and while there are a lot of hints to what the original story plan was, Bungie's writers have been spinning kinda wildly to get the new story changes to fit.
Pretty sure I saw that unraveling rounds were originally called “festering” rounds. So the whole “her magic festering inside me” makes even more sense
Infesting Rounds*
Bungie: the player guardian will be the first to use strand
Everyone on the internet: here's my theory of characters who have used strand
So this topic gave me an idea about the veil. If we go with the assumptions made in the campaign that the veil is the reason we can see and wield strand, and Osiris is right that the light is tied to the physical and the darkness is tied to the mind/immaterial, then there is a question of how darkness can affect our physical plane. We have already seen how the viel seems to be a tool that amplified the witness' powers, and that it physically looks like a communion point of darkness and light. What if darkness normally cant affect the physical plane, but the viel can convert that darkness to force that affects reality. Another way to say it would be that it makes thoughts reality. This could also explain why the viel's roots grew during the fight with Calus, it was converting the immense darkness he was calling as he became more desperate. This also explain the roots that sprout from darkness entities as they are destroyed, because they are loosing control of that converted power. This might also be why the dark fleet and the witness went dormant after savathuns betrayal, they had to conserve power they couldnt regularly replenish. The witness' quote "finality take shape" would also make sense in this context as it uses the veil to convert its idea of "finality" into physical form and imprint it on the traveler. It might also work in the opposite way, which could be what the black heart was doing, coverting the physical light into darkness energy for the vex to benefit from somehow.
Apparently I have the hot take of no. I think it was soulfire. It doesn't make sense that 1, savathun would have strand and then lose it in witchqueen when we give her all her memories back 2, that a non-paracausal being would see strand when literally nobody on neomuna knew about it despite living next to the veil and 3, that bungie would say we're the first to use it if we weren't. The description fits soulfire more than strand.
Edit: it also wouldn't make sense that nezerac was unfamiliar with strand if he had the veil on his ship. It doesn't make sense that the witness wouldn't prepare the shadow legion for strand if they knew about it. There's just too many damn plot holes in my mind.
Think of how she held the Traveler in place. We had to sever threads she used. She was likened to a moth, not a spider. The strands were all green. I'm almost certain she was using Strand.
Good point
I agree but silk moth larvae can make silk threads and they’re actually how silk used to be made.
@Pink_Parade true. Either way they're strands.
My guess is that is was just soul-fire, since they also have trapping techniques, but also since if something dies by strand, it will completely unravel and disappear. His body remained, so from that I just assume that it was just soul-fire instead of strand.
I think she was aware of the ever present energy that strand is and perhaps how the veil connects to the weird sort of spiritual river they were describing but I don’t think she was fully capable of wielding it. Maybe the soul fire magic pulls from the same place but is rudimentary by comparison
In our boss fight with Savathun, she restricts our movement using Hive magic when we try to reach Imaru (before we cross the bridge). I like your theory, but this could also be how she shackled Nezarec.
strand is a power manifesting from all the connected conciousness and the river of SOUL is mentioned heavily when it comes to strand and hive magic called SOUL fire seems a bit on the nose with the connection.
I wonder if soulfire is a branch off the idea of Strand.
It actually really makes me wonder if after the Final Shape, we will find out these things like Soul Fire, Kinetic, Techeun, and Psionic energy are in fact their own things to be powers moved away from Light and Dark.
well Awoken magic is definitely its own type of paracausal power, but I think the running theory is that it's some combination of Light and Darkness in the same way that the Awoken themselves are. Soulfire is definitely just a form of Darkness because the Hive reject any expression of the Light on principle, and Psionic energy does seem to be pretty well removed from other forms of paracausality.
@@webausay Awoken magic is a combination of Light and Darkness.
@@liamoliver5848 That's what I said.
@@webausay You said you think it's a combination of Light and Darkness, I was just confirming it as fact.
Hear me out- Savathuns Song = Nezarec’s psionic viral power.
Hey guardians. This is completely unrelated to the video but something just occurred to me… in the witch queen, it was revealed that the scorn allied themselves with the darkness/witness to the point where they were even all over the vow of the disciple raid. I know in Lightfall it was more about Calus and his army so I didn’t expect to see any scorn but it makes me wonder. If some scorn were given higher positions like The Caretaker in the raid, by the time The Final Shape comes around, do you think we’ll see even more scorn rise up the ranks and be more major players in the story? The only other major enemy we know of right now is Xivu Arath and her army but we definitely aren’t done with the scorn yet so I’m wondering if they will play a major role in the final shape. Because they were all over the witch queen but didn’t really have much going as far as the story. Lore wise yes but story wise they were kinda just there.
There is a plot hole here in this video, something I've considered but haven't been able to reconcile. Nezarec asks you if anyone has the pieces of him, why would he ask this? In every instance of a person holding a piece of Nezarec, it seems Nezarec is actively haunting the person and driving them insane. So it implies that the consciousness that's attached to that piece is perhaps separate from the reborn Nezarec and perhaps from the other pieces themselves. Kinda like the horcruxes from Harry Potter and how Voldemort didn't know his horcruxes had been destroyed til most of them were gone.
Hey there, Byf! First I just want to say I have been a subscriber from... pfffff, God knows when. I come from a line of scholars and linguists. I have followed, in most ways, the path of my fathers. Anyway, I totally understood where you were going (both for and against) as soon as the lore tab was being read. I noticed you used the hyphen in "this-her" magic as a comma. At least audibly, so my input -should I be so lucky to have this comment read- is this. Remember, the hyphen has been used with, not just, the Hive quite a lot. It's usually used to describe two things 🤔... being-happening at the same time. So while bungie says we're the first to wield it. Maybe Savathun, in the presence of the veil, carried it along by accident with her using soulfire? It would make sense with the oddness of not getting a green subclass in witch queen too. Anyway, I hope you read this, I'll see you starside!
Sounds like she accidentally/unknowingly incorporated strand in her magics due to the veil being close and amplifying strand's presence. Probably that her magics either have similar properties to strand or some aspects would be affected by it especially so with the Veil nearby.
The Savathun's Hive might use a primitive/weaker version of strand for all we know.
what if strand and hive soulfire are based in similar ideas, with the strands of reality being literally burnt via the hive's penchant for destruction, hell, burning a hole in the strands of reality could explain some of the things they do, and wave away the dismissal that is "strand is an undiscovered power" when it was discovered, just not fully understood, the hive saw the strand, but lacked the creativity to do anything other than make use of it's flaming embers.
It would not surprise me at all that savathun actually wielded strand given that she had direct unfettered access to the veil which was believed to reveal the existence of strand
I'm going *full* spinfoil here, but hear me out: It may well have been both soulfire and strand, as they may be more connected than we know. Strand is this immaterial weave that permeates all existence, most visible when in proximity to the Veil, which gives form to its dark shapelessness. The Hive's magic deals regularly with the immaterial: ascendant planes, soulfire, upending our concepts of mortality and physics. Their own language, thus, is shaped into paracausal knives that whittle reality to their will - and I believe they do so by weakening the weave of Strand. They don't pull on it or manipulate it as Guardians do, instead tearing it, cutting it, and burning it in their rituals. They make space in the immaterial for their will to take root and, in so doing, shape the material world in turn. Whether they know that's what they're doing is another question entirely - their magic is also couched in so much religion and mysticism as to make all but the most knowledgeable of Hive mages into unreliable narrators. I believe Savathun knew Strand as the kindling for soulfire, and on the day she confronted Nezarec, the Veil may have shown her its true potential.
That a whole "We were the first to use strand didn't sit right with me the second we drop on Neomuna.
We immediately see a Cabal with a Strand Shield before we get it AND to top it off, Asher Mir already made Vexcalibur. So I don't believe the whole "guardians got it first." Even if Bungie said it.
I think she Totally used Strand there.
In the audio from the raid Nezarec says she “cursed my remains” which just sounds like hive magic to me
That makes alot of sense, never gave it a thought. Maybe it was there version of strand, like an experimental version of their power, she didn't know what it was and weaved it. We call it strand because we did not because it's called strand. The fallen call the traveler the machine god, are they right or wrong?
It's almost like Bungie initially intended strand to come out with Witch Queen and that Savathun would've used it on us
If strand was meant to be in witch queen but got pushed to be more polished, I could honestly see savathun using strand. I like the idea of it originally being a gift to us from her but who knows.
How about Solfire with strand properties. Savathun may have made contact with strand energy like we did when we first used strand.
If Savathun so dares pulls out strand when she comes back I take that as full fledge confirmation that Strand was supposed to come out with The Witch Queen Expansion Lmaoo
I am going to say this I think it might have been a mix of the two Strand and Soul Fire I also think we will see her return in the Final Shape as an ally a true ally now that she knows the darkness deceived her shes a clever being she might even be the one who teaches us the final darkness subclass
Byf, What are your thoughts on why we need a connection to the Traveler to wield light based powers? We don’t technically have a connection to a paracausal entity to wield Darkness, so why would the Light powers be different?
Reviving I understand, and would actually see it more of a Gardener power that the Traveler has (not us), rather than a Light Power because that it literally what it does, create life. But from their descriptions on what each power is, there really shouldn’t be a need for the Traveler to be involved (other than perhaps working the same way as the Veil where is it makes Strand easier to grasp but its still possible everywhere).
Would this tie in any way to how we still have powers right now and what the Final Shape will end up being?
There is still the question of why during the Red War, sealing the Traveler sealed our powers, but that could either be a plot hole or something to consider for possible story implications about why we currently need the Traveler to use the Light when it shouldn’t be necessary
You know honestly I would not be surprised if she did
Knowing Savathun and how slick she is, she probably used strand, and even Bungy didn't know about it 😧😂
Well since you said yourself that Bungie came out with "we got strand first" then it's just hive magic she used to kill him not strand
I predict that the Witch Queen’s story isn’t over, in fact I think we will end up deciding to help her ghost resurrect her, likely to prod her on info of what the Witness did. Except she won’t have remembered so we’ll have a season where we get back her memories to figure out how to combat the Witness’s plan in the final shape
damn she must be running an osteo striga necrotic grips suspend build
The main question i take away from this is how did Nezarec get ahold of the veil and where did he find it
Spoiler Ahead!
Don’t forget that next season is “season of the deep” and all though many people assume it must be related to Zevu, it could be about Savathun’s return. Additionally we know we are getting more strand Aspects and Sav might be just the person to introduce them.
Sounds to me like Nezarec has a little crush on Savathun 😘. Homie rockin that goth kid poetry lol.
Its that stupid black green cloud that wizards place around you, suppresing you and slowing you doing damage over time.
Byf, just to complete your analysis, I also think that a great hint at strand is the last sentence "No... she could not hold me", Nezarec was suspended with strand, as we suspend ads to kill 'em
Is there anything that I am unaware of, other than our current limitations within Destiny, that makes these mutually exclusive?
She is a "God" of the Hive. Could she not be intermingling the two?
We also can't deny the connection to Osiris. He takes to Strand so quickly, whereas we kill ourselves multiple times just trying to learn to use it. A remaining piece of Savathun inside him, perhaps?
Also, if Nezarec's body still showed traces of Strand energy, binding him all these eons later and preventing his revival, that could explain the threads that Mithrax saw while making his batch of Nezcafe.
Osiris didn’t take to strand quickly though? The strand lore backs this up.
@Elitejt8 You're right, Osiris basically just says he uses us as a guinea pig since we can revive and he can't. I stand corrected. Still seems an interesting coincidence that he is the one who is able to understand it the best.
@@michaelchesnut865 I will agree with you on that, Osiris is a good learner, though I would said much of it is thanks to nimbus. Without nimbus Osiris and us for that matter would have been in bad shape.
Savathun is easily imo the best villian in destiny and the lore and her story is just insane.
Is she even a villain at this point
Agreed, I think the Hive overall have the best lore in Destiny
@@Mariosunbornchild ye at this point she literally could be out strongest ally
She is just so well done on so many levels. From her motivations to her powers it all is just so good
Yeah although imo ghaul was he was the only one to actually “defeat” us by kicking us out the city and taking the light no other villain done that until the witness now kinda
I guarantee, when we unlock the 8th Light subclass in 2042 Savathun is going to tell us she has known about it since before we were born.
Destiny aizen
Guardian while you have just discovered the lemon lime Gatorade sub class I’ve known about since 2014. Despair
Savathun, a newborn: all according to my plan
She is a Destiny version of Tszinch from War Hammer.
Correction. Before we were reborn in the Light.
I just love the idea of savathun using strand. It feels so fitting for her character lol
Shed definitely be a broodweaver
Cus she always pulling the strings lol
Look at the Warlock with strand, from the Subclass name to all the keywords and phrasing just screams Savathun.
@@truekurayami I don’t think “Witch” and “Broodmother” are quite one in the same on theming.
@@provaricus627 Where do "Witch" and "Broodmother" appear in the Warlock's Strand subclass?
I love how Savathun is both the Antagonist and the Hero in destiny. she's basically stopped the entire universe from getting destroyed, protected the traveler, guided us to reach higher levels of abilities, brought unity between us and our unlikely allies, proven that you can't place all your faith in the light or the dark, and have us in edge in killing both her siblings.
Honestly, if she'd just stop trying to kill us she'd be the best anti-hero ever written.
I mean hell, even in Elsie Bray's multiple future time-lines, as terrifying as Savathun would become in her own right, the Witch Queen we actually had to fear was Eris Mourn. And even Savathun gave warnings on her playing with shadows lol
we are playing chest. she's playing inter-dimensional shogi 😂
If Savathun stopped trying to kill us it would actually make her character feel dull to me. She his that perfect spot of Antagonist, between Rival we are trying to grow with and Anti-hero we are at odds with.
Then again, in the Hive culture. The highest form of love you can show someone is by killing them in some ways
Do anti-heroes usually commit cosmic holocausts?
@@shaun6104 if you look it us guardians commit genocide
@@shaun6104 Deadpool
Another thing to remember to remember is that Osiris helped us with strand, and as we all know Osiris has Savathuns memories.
Im convinced by the language of the lore tab that Savathun actually took over nezeracs body at one point just like she took over Osiris.
Hey! I had a bit of a theory about the final shape. In your latest video, you talked about how each disciple has a different interpretation of the Final Shape. One of Savathun’s truths/lies is that “the witness seeks the final shape, and the final shape is nothing”. What if she meant that literally? As in, there is no such thing as the final shape? The reasons none of the disciples can figure out what the final shape is, is because there is no final shape?
I always interpreted “The Final Shape is Nothing” as either the complete heat death of the universe or every single bit of matter, energy, and information ceasing to exist.
There is no spoon
Personally think the final shape is a lie and the witness uses it to fuel his disciples to his true goal which only it knows
The best way to look at it is this; the Witness is essentially lying through omission to its Disciples. The Final Shape for the Witness is basically the complete annihilation of everything, because it goes to the natural conclusion of its own arguments. If it were a string of logic, it would be like this
existence is pain > reduce pain as much as possible > no reality = no entity that can experience pain can ever be created or pop into existence > destroy existence itself > seek nothingness
It's harder to sell universal genocide, including collective suicide afterwards, to a rag tag group of alien sociopaths who see themselves individually as above gods, so let them imagine the Final Shape to be some personal ideal or perfect paradise while they work towards your efforts. It's genius, and sadistic.
I think the final shape will be some unification of everything in some way
It wouldn't surprise me if we come to find out that Strand is the kindling upon which Soulfire becomes ablaze with worm god powers. They are essentially the same but the worm gods can twist Strand in ways that Guardians have yet to discover. It'd be so cool to shackle an enemy, snap your fingers, then watch them burn to a crisp while shackled without using any solar ability whatsoever
I've been thinking something similar. There's always been a lot of strange weaving/unraveling imagery associated with some of the higher-up ascendant hive, most notably in the Daughters of Oryx fight -- they're literally called the weaver and unraveller -- but there's also a few scattered references to hive magic with thread motifs. The traps that you can find in hive-controlled areas that lock you into place seem to have this same green string-like visual language that's very reminiscent of Strand.
@@webausay well there is that theory that strand was originally going to be in witch queen but was delayed due to the light subclasses needing a rework first. I would not be surprised if season of the deep sees us learning about a connecting between strand and the hive.
@@McLovinTRoyce That's not really so much a theory as it is just a provable fact. Literally just replace all of the Deepsight nodes in WQ with Strand's grapple points and you've got the original vision of the expansion. I'm pretty sure the reason that they replaced Strand with the Light reworks is because they needed another expansion for the Sony acquisition and thus Lightfall as we know it was created.
I digress. At any rate, I think you're absolutely right about season 21 giving us some info on how Savathun and the Hive generally are able to seemingly use Strand (or something very similar) despite stating that guardians are the first to discover it. If they don't and it just sticks around like a sore thumb I'll be very disappointed
@@webausay Agreed. A good compromise is that the Guardian independently discovered Strand on Neptune.
Even if they decide to make the story such that Savathun's lineage has been using it for a long time, it doesn't detract from the fact that the Guardian discovered and mastered it (or at least a variant of it) in hours/days on Neomuna, so I feel it doesn't detract from the player Guardian's accomplishment.
In fact, imo the best outcome is that Savathun is pleased to see that we did.
I wonder if it’s possible that the Veil could have assisted Savathun in killing Nezarec by entrapping him with Strand while she used her powers. If so, Savathun wouldn’t have used Stand herself but it would have assisted with her killing of Nezarec.
it doesn't seem like the Veil is at all sentient, so I don't don't think that's a real possibility. Byf's probably right about the Veil revealing the web that strand utilizes to her in the fight with Nezarec.
@@webausay but Nez also talked to the veil like a person
Didn’t do that for calus
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong When does he personify the veil? He simply says that Savathun stole the veil, and that it contains secrets of the Witness' first victims (and possibly the Traveler's too?)
@@androski5247 when he talks about it at maya's retreat, ye says "you" when referring to it.
Its also interesting that the deathsingers in Kings fall use songs called the Dirge of Unraveling and the Hymn of Weaving, which instantly kill you if they are allowed to be fully sung. Perhaps the more powerful hive have the ability to pluck the strings of the weave in the form of sound, rather than physically controlling it?
Well the devs said we discovered it. However, I think she was utilizing it in her hive weaving without quite knowing WHAT it was. Savathun used a lot of power. I don’t think she neccesarily needed to know what it was so long as it bent to her will.
Yeah it is also worth noting that we gave the power shape, so strand manifesting as green strings was our doing, so if savathun did use it in some form it wasn’t intended or it’s shape was different.
How about Bungie lied to us and Strand was meant for Witchqueen?
@@Mia-Bunny We know it was meant for Witch Queen and they delayed it for light 3.0, we've known this since before Witch Queen.
@@diddlebop7481 congratulations
I’m in this camp
With Strand initially being slated to have been released in WQ I think tha tyeah Savathun was using strand. Bungie may change that to be something else since they stated we were the first to find it, or I hope that they clarify that we are the first ones we know of to use it and that it has been a part of destiny before.
I know there is a lot of evidence of strand originally being planned for Witchqueen, but the amount of people outright saying it was supposed to be in Witchqueen is odd to me. Lets make sure we separate hypothesis and facts
@@zbrinz720 Bungie straight up said it was though in one of the vidocs or interviews, the leaks at the time which are real also confirmed this
@@jamesdino1388 they didn’t though. I have looked for evidence on this before
@@zbrinz720 one of arenas during the mission where you show her the worm memories you can clearly see it was supposed to be strand. The way the strings are overhead.
@@tomz6594 again, there is evidence of strand being intended for witchqueen, but people talk about it as if it has been confirmed by bungie to have been intended for witchqueen, only speculation, which is an important distinction
Even savasis was abusing the shackle nades to defeat tormentors. A true guardian!
This is how you know Savathun was the antagonist we didn’t know we needed. She really was out here playing chess when everyone around her was playing checkers. They should’ve introduced Xivu 2nd and Savathun 3rd instead. It seems as if Savathun was using strand cause the wording he used seemed like strand and he was unfamiliar with it
It was debunked before it was even made. Bungie has confirmed that Osiris and us are the first to harness Strand. Savathun just used hive magic, which also bears a green hue.
I think she had just never done _that_ to him before is what he meant when he said it was unfamiliar.
Like you said, if she stuck the veil on Neptune right after the collapse, its not impossible she discovered strand there. Its also not impossible that while toting the veil to Neptune she found it somewhere along the way. Also not a stretch to think that someone who goes so far to plan things out that she would keep the fact that she discovered something new a secret to be used in a moment of weakness... but that begs why she didn't use it during the witch queen campaign. Guess we may find out whenever Imaru finds his way to her corpse.
Maybe Strand is the primordial to Hive Magic, it wouldn't be too far-fetched since it's been shown that enemies can use basic, diluted or unstable forms of the elemental energies that make our abilities.
Hey Byf! I’m not sure if you could make a whole video about this but I figured it would be a fun thing to bring up as an idea if you could. The writers have never given us a solid number to how long ago the collapse was in the Destiny chronology, but in the new expansion we have the Cloudstriders who are canonically live for 10 years tops, and a room where supposedly every Cloudstriders grace is at. The last time I was in there I counted about 283 Cloudstrider graves which assuming things went best and every cloud strider got in 9 and enough months to round up with a new Cloudstrider 1 year into replacing them that would indicate that Neomuna, or at least the Cloudstriders, have existed for at best 2,551 years post collapse. Don’t know if that’s a big enough thing for you to make any sort of video out of but I figured it might be a fun thing for fanon, and lore theory.
To me, this just makes it so much clearer that strand was intended to release with Witch Queen and not lightfall
Honestly, I could definitely see this being the case. As some people have pointed out in the comments already, there were aspects from her & other parts of The Witch Queen expansion that had to do with threads and string. Along with that is the fact that she is cunning and more than likely has MANY secrets, so secretly having access to Strand, despite being told that we guardians are the first to ever wield it, would make sense.
Can we explore if soulfire and strand are any kind of connected I think a lot of fans would honestly like a connection for the hive builds everyone has wanted to make since d1
my biggest question is, who even made the conditional exotic shotgun?
was it a amalgamation from multiple parts found on the pyramid ship, or did savathun make a double barrel shotgun just to shoot nezarec
This is one of those “video game moments” for example who made all the raid weapons in general? They’re names after some of the members of the cult but that makes no sense as to we’re in the witnesses ship getting these weapons, and why/when would Nezerec make weapons for us?
@@navi0760 yeah thats what confuses me like are these made from a strange company that produces weapons like viest or suros or omolon or hakk, or is it made from the guardian or something, like dang its like a mystery
No because bungie said that we are the first to discover strand
Yep and strand was supposed to be in Witchqueen, so yeah Bungie lying to us. Lightfall is a filler dlc that is needed to bridge this story until 2025. I don't blame them for it, but if we go from the GDC presentation and wanna play the bad guy here. Then we could say Bungie saw Strand as an overdelivery and that's not good for a train station as we know 😂.
I got a crack theory. Strand and Resonance are the same force, just being used by different moral forces. Think about it. Both have the visual effect of colored, wavy lines floating in the air. Both share the same visual language for the fabric of the universe. And not to mention, the knife the hunter weilds in the subclass menu has the same look as Lubraes Ruin.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Corruption breaks you down while Soulfire is what remains
She could've just used a Hive Trap like in those strikes
The problem I have with the primarily is that if Savathun used strand against Nezerak, there’s nothing really stopping her from continuing to use it.
The only thing restricting someone from wielding strand is that they need to know it exists, usually by visiting the veil, and they need to train to let the “flow take you.” Savathun if she knew this power existed and was strong, she would have developed and wielded this power as opposed to never using it again.
It would be very strange for her to wield strand and then never wield it again.
I'm suspicious of the description Nezarec uses to describe the power Savathun uses against him. I distinctly remember her using her soulfire to stop us from breaking Imaru in the WQ campaign, where a green vignette is applied to us, and our movement is stopped.
You remember wrong because Sav was dead when imaru was out and we just let hem go.
@Shadow Man No, he's talking about in the very beginning. We killed her, but she used soulfire to restrain us and allowed Immaru to revive her.
@@AnimuWarlock When Ghost says "that was too easy" and then Sav says "it WAS too easy, wasn't it?" I've never seen Imaru there and get trapped when reaching for the loot chests. And in the cutscene after Ghost only tells Ikora of that Hive Knight with a ghost which I think would be less of a big deal than Sav herself.
Further proof that strand would have been the subclass we got in the WQ, if we would’ve gotten one.
It might be Strand or it might just be a reference to Hive Magic, as it was supposed to be what we got before they ripped it apart and reformed it into Strand.
Bungie themselves probably said that nobody has used strand before to curb these theories.
I think it’s more along the lines of those green Hive traps, not strand.
My guess the line just means that he had never felt her magic being used on him before
If she did, then that means the devs lied when they said that Guardians were the first to discover this power, and the power was discovered AFTER we killed Savathun.
Technically they did not lied since she was no guardian when that happend. She had no ghost and no light abilities! :D She was just a hive bitch using strand if so. She was only reborn as a guardian recently and we even helped her re-gain her memories
@@ghstproject whether she was a guardian or not they literally said we were the first to discover strand
@@dingdongspaghettimaybe that’s to throw is off the track that she used it and the whole point of this shotguns lore is to give is the truth
I think the Hive's Soulfire powers are unknowingly aping a part (or parts) of what Strand is capable of. Savathun inflicting the 'Threadbound' debuff (binding you in place on the ground) on us in the WQ campaign is an accidental flawed copy of Strand's Suspend debuff (lifting you into the air).
I've been thinking for awhile that Hive magic may just be a watered down version of Strand. Kind of like The Nightsisters' ichor from Star Wars being based on The Dark Side of The Force. Especially considering Ir Halak's Hymn of *Weaving* and Ir Anûk's Dirge of *Unraveling.* Savathûn's proximity to the Veil at this time may have just made her abilities with Strand more refined, if that makes sense?
It's werid because there are several times in the WQ campaign where you are immobilized and have a debuff called "Threadbound," and those wizards during the final fight are called "Threadweavers," you get a buff called "thread cutter," and she is spinning a web around the Traveler. However, none of the visuals really look like Strand. It could just be 'something something moth lady, something something silk, something something cocoon.' And yeah, they do say in the ViDoc that we are the first beings in the universe to wield Strand. I would not be surprised if there is some weirdness and inconsistency because of the theory that the Lightfall we got was unplanned, Strand was supposed to come with WQ, and The Final Shape's story was supposed to come with Lightfall with presumably a third and final Darkness subclass.
As much as I would love to jump aboard this theory, I don't really see Savathûn using Strand against Nezarec. I think the weapon lore tab is more meant to focus on the act of her killing him, rather than to hide between the lines that the Witch Queen was wielding Strand to do it, and that she was instead wielding a twisted kind of Hive magic like she is known for doing.
Sure, the Witch Queen has a ton of references to "threads" and "weavings" and we learn about these throughout the Witch Queen expansion. However, I believe we're dealing with a reference to spinning a web like a spider, weaving threads like the Fates, and tugging in strings between people there. If she had the ability to wield Strand, why not use it against the Guardian when she realized she was about to lose? It sounds to me, from the description, she's wielding it with confidence, and if so, would she not also be able to wield it without the Veil's proximity like Guardians do after learning it from Osiris and Nimbus? Especially considering we're beating her in the Throne World, where her will is law. Sure, wielding the Light is about tools, and wielding the Darkness is about a change of perspective and a different view of the immaterial, but I feel like Savathûn, of all the enemies we've faced, would be the absolute best at adapting to something like that.
So, yeah, I think what we're reading in the Lore Tab, is Nezarec's description of Hive magic that he does not at all understand. It's simply Savathûn doing her magic tricks.
If you subscribe to the speculation that Strand was supposed to be the new power for Witch Queen, it would fit her moth motif to use a silk power. Or she could use hive magic to make a causal version of strand (i.e. fire to solar energy, arc to electricity, ice to Stasis). I don't think they'd do the whole "it's a new power you made yourself" then turn around and say "Yeah, BTW Savathun knew about it centuries ago, just never used it."
I think if you look back at how Witch Queen had obvious Strand influence in development, and the amount of “Thread” based things surrounding Savathun in the campaign, you could at LEAST extrapolate that she had a rudimentary understanding of Strand, at least from a Hive point of view.
It being Darkness based, having to do with weaving and unraveling threads of the world to your shape and design really screams that Savathun had some sort of basic comprehension of Strand.
You take into account that she was near the Veil when she capped Nezarec, and that she’s later she has heavy Strand motifs and influences in her own expansion, it’s safe to say she could use it to some degree.
I think it's farfetched, just because everything hive-magic is green. Unless all Hive magic is strand, which would be an amazingly mediocre retcon
I think you're connecting dotted lines that aren't there. This seems like 2 separate things. I believe these lines from Nezzy were originally written and kept from a time when Strand was meant to be some infecting poison class. We have some ingame leaks of unraveling rounds originally being infestation rounds.
Stay with me, because we're about to go down a rabbit hole: The original plan was to end this saga with Lightfall before plans were revised and we were originally meant to get a subclass with WQ, but plans were changed due to whatever reason. I believe the original plan was give us some infestation/poison based subclass with WQ(which was hinted at due to the idea of removing a worm from her plus all of the weapons and armor that released before it that hinted towards it.) But they instead chose to hold off. They instead chose to use the idea of threads as a subclass, but solely as a story point for a what seems to be a filler DLC. This would explain why we see something LIKE strands and have it hinted at in WQ, but then Bungie says we're the only being to ever wield it.
So my take on the original plan is as follows: WQ launch with infestation/poison based subclass, with Savathun originally using some form of strand. Final DLC in the saga would find us woefully underpowered to fight the Witness, so we'd also get Strand rounding us out at 3 Light and 3 Dark subclasses. But due to the need to spread out the DLCs until Bungie can release a new IP, they had to delay and rewrite it. So we had an entire narrative written around Strand, thus making it lore-accurate to say we're the first to use the ability.
This was absolutely an oversight on Bungie's part as I will not call the narrative team lazy, since strand was supposed to come out in WQ I think it was a power we would unlock by just being in Savathuns throne world and a power she had forgotten due to becoming a Guardian. It would also explain Osiris having a knack for it as he would've experienced it through Savathuns memories. Overall I think they just forgot to rewrite the lore or didn't care as it could be interpreted as anything
idk if this is just silly word games but they specifically stated that its a power discovered by guardians and, savathun is a guardian now. granted, she wasn't when she killed nezarec, but it could be clever wording from the staff
Also something to notice, right here is the first step of how Savathun stalled The Witness to protect The Traveler and indirectly saving humankind from annihilation. In season of the Deep will we learn the follow up steps on the grand scheme? How she deceived The Witness and sent him back, among the stars?
With the whole green aesthetic of strand matching the witch queen and themes of memory from that expansion I wouldn’t be surprised
It was soul fire. I believe this because we were supposed to have that power (soul fire, sorrow or poison) until they changed it for strand. And like you mention bungie said we discovered strand first. I do feel like strand was supposed to be introduced in witch queen.
Can't wait for the door behind Crow in the H.E.L.M to open in Season of The Deep and Savathun being in there sitting on a makeshift throne with imaru by her side and Eris and Ikora revealing they have been chatting it out
I see it like this: Hive magic is derived from the darkness. Strand is the second darkness subclass. I think that while the guardian may be the first being to discover Strand, i think strand is just a different way to harness the Weave. I think hive magic is much more passive in regards to the power of the weave, whereas the guardian forms the shape.
So I do think she did use strand since I believe the hive are one of the only species to naturally see the weave and by extension strand, obviously the hive in general doesn’t know how to use strand but considering it’s savathun she perhaps could’ve tapped into and used a bastardised version of it mixed with hive soulfire magic.