So I know I don't talk a lot about Zuko and Iroh's relationship in this video, and that's somewhat intentional. It would have made the video unbearably long, and honestly their relationship is worth a video all its own.
As good and influential as Iroh is to Zuko's story, I love that since book 2 they are somewhat separated and in the comics, he is not by his side. Zuko needed to grow on his own and find his own path, that is why I totally agreed with him choosing Azula's side at the end of book 2. His destiny was not a simple life in Earth kingdom, his life and destiny were to take his father's place and outgrow his toxic family and face the abuse they implemented on him. If he listened to Iroh then, he would not have a conclusion to his family life and there would always be this big " what if" in his life.
@uraveragehoovy there are 24 hours in a day. You use about 16 of them. How many of those hours are you alone? How many of them do you spend working? How many of them do you spend eating, drinking, and sleeping? It's easy to say that you should think of others as much as yourself, but l, truthfully we can easily spend any amount of time thinking of what we want or need and getting it. In an effort to extraordinary rather than simply fulfilling the bare minimum of common decency, you have to be willing to give more than and equal amount of time to thinking of others. Thus spake Jesus Christ.
For me, the most interesting thing about Zuko's arc is in his betrayal of Iroh. In most movies and tv shows, when a character betrays someone, they soon realize that this wasn't what they wanted or that they've lost the thing that was most important to them, or something cliche like that. But in Zuko's case, he gets everything he's ever wanted. His "honor", his father's respect, Mai's love. Everything goes back to normal. But Zuko has changed, and he realizes that this is no longer who he is. It really is the perfect character arc.
That actually did kind of happen to Zuko right at the cave. He knew it was the wrong decision but could not resist the temptation. He could not even say anything to Iroh or even face him.
It looks like Zuko needed to know what it felt to be accepted back by his father and welcomed like a hero in his nation. The problem is 1) he knew he took the bad decision 2) he knew the whole "I killed the Avatar" thing was a lie 3) his esteemed uncle wouldn't talk to him after what he had done. He needed to find out that what he had striven to achieve wasn't a fulfillment because he only did it to seek his father's approbation. Like all toxic people, Ozai had somehow convinced Zuko that he was never good enough, and that he deserved to be disfigured and exiled (generational trauma at its "best"). It took Zuko time to understand the only person who could give him his honour back was himself. We had a hint on Ember Island when he finally admitted he was angrier than ever although he seemingly had what he always wanted.
Zukos betrayal of Iroh was one of those key moments that made this show a masterpiece for me. Any other show would have used all the buildup to make Zuko a good guy. But that moment showed how such a huge shift is NOT easy and how seeking forgiveness for that action is not so simple, in his redemption arc!
Zuko joining the gaang would be a giant leap and would at very least feel forced, as that would he would have to turn his back on his country which means turning his back on his father. For three years he had been trying to get his father's respect by trying to hunt the avatar. Turning away all that because his uncle "suddenly" wants them to save the world. I still would like to see what would have happened had Iroh managed to convince him.
TECHNICALLY Iroh betrayed Zuko. I mean-he did the right thing. But technically Zuko and Iroh were not the Avatar's allies at the point as far as he knew. He knew his Uncle didn't like the idea of continuing the hunt for the Avatar-but going against what he wants is not the same as betraying him. He didn't attack Iroh either-he just kinda stood there in shock. Now Zuko's shitty behavior in the aftermath of that battle is another story.
I also love how they show that forgiveness is not so simple, and eventually we see that zuko doesn't even seek forgiveness so much as reconciliation. Iroh, though, has already forgiven him.
Toph never had a revelatory journey with Zuko because she had already learned what she needed, specifically that it's okay to rely on and ask for help from others, when she met Iroh. Great video, as always.
I still think they could have written an episode where Toph teaches Zuko about being less stubborn/accepting help from others. Something along the lines of him trying to prove himself as useful to the gang, then he gets in over his head and she has to help him. But as someone who has made the same mistakes herself, she'd be the best one to show him asking for help makes you stronger as a team, not weaker as an individual. Maybe place it in-between the Aang and Sokka episodes since he does jump very suddenly to being a team player
“You’ve always thrown everything you could at me, well, I can take it, and now I can give it back!” … “COME ON! STRIKE ME! YOUVE NEVER HELD BACK BEFORE.” That scene hits so hard. You’re not the crowned prince. You have no loyalties to the fire nation. You never really feel yourself cheering for Zuko. But damn, do you feel that with him.
Only now I see that zuko's hair really reflects his change, from a pointy, threatening style with lots of edges, to a round, whole hair that shows how complete he became
What comes to my mind when I hear Zuko... Pain. Trauma. Rage. Wounded pride. But also Growth. Humility. And Acceptance. One of the best written characters i have seen in a show in a long time, and I love how people are still coming back to analyze his character.
Zuko always believed his destiny was to capture the avatar, and restore his honor. He did exactly that - though not in the way he thought. He made friends with the Avatar. And he restored not only his honor, but the honor of the fire nation as a whole. The war began with the Avatar and his close friend/fire lord drifting away and becoming opposing forces. The war ended with the Avatar and the Fire Lord/close friend coming together and restoring balance to the world. This is phenomenal story writing. There are parallels EVERYWHERE.
From a prince to a petty thief to a refugee and back to a prince then a rebel and then the Fire Lord. And every last bit of it, good and bad, all earned. Yin and Yang represented perfectly through Zuko’s Journey.
The fact that so many movies/tv shows nowadays are obsessed with not having a villain or "everyone being a good guy" in some form or "redeeming bad guys" but in a bad or unrealistic way makes me think of how good the characters and story was in ATLA.
cool thing about Zuko: his scar is more than just rule of cool Usually a villain’s scar is a one-note tragic backstory or something to make them more scary. But it’s so much more than that with Zuko. The incident that caused the scar was traumatic and horrible and has a major impact on his character. It’s not just a cool character design, it’s important and thought through
I totally agree and it also lends itself to great visual storytelling as well. I forget what episode it was, but i remember a scene where he was contemplating something and they showed the side of his face without the scar and then switched to the same shot, but showing the side with the scar. Its such a simple detail but it so clearly communicates his inner conflict in that moment
@speakevermore it was when he was in conflict wondering to choose Azula and everything "he ever wanted", or Iroh and embrace the change. That was so brilliant
@speakevermore This is also not the only visual storytelling we get with the scar. For example at the very beginning of the show, episode 2 or 3 when he challenges Zhao for Agni Kai, Iroh asks him if he remembers the last time he was fighting in an Agni Kai. The camera slowly moves, stopping at the side with Zuko's scar and then Zuko says "I'll never forget". There's more probably but I can't remember at the moment
Usually, a villain's physical deformity only serves to highlight how evil they are. It's a form of dehumanization- a physical manifestation of the "rot" in their soul. But Zuko's scar serves not to highlight his villainy, but rather his GOODNESS. He got the scar because he took a stand against something he KNEW was wrong.
One thing I love about the way they wrote Zuko/Iroh is how they were able to maintain Iroh as an unwavering source of true wisdom and righteousness who didn't have, for lack of a better word, weaknesses. While this is usually done badly in media, I think they did a good job of acknowledging his past flaws and mistakes that led him to where he was, Zuko's arc feels like it was a mirror of Iroh's, and one that we could follow along with to see how Iroh got to where he is today.
Much as I _wish_ the show had given us a Zuko & Toph Life-Changing Field Trip™, I completely understand why it wasn't given to us-- they didn't *need* it. Everyone else on the team had had bad experiences with Zuko in the past and needed to see for themselves how he'd grown and changed. Toph, on the otherhand, had no such experiences, was predisposed to liking him on Iroh's behalf, and was willing to accept him on board right away. (Even when he burnt her feet, she didn't blame him, because she had the maturity to understand that it was an unintended mistake, rather than a brutal attack.)
Zuko is my favorite character in Avatar. He's also the character I see most of myself in. He's honorable, perseverant and driven, but he's also prideful, wrathful and generally, as you put it perfectly, driven by shame. I like and dislike those traits in myself and I actually used a lot of Iroh's advice while trying to improve myself. I see a lot of my time in college in Zuko. I was very full of myself when I first set out on my path as a professional, and I was struck down by that pride and shame again and again. It was only when I accepted my faults and limitations that I narrowly avoided being flunked out. And I will graduate this year. What a beautiful thing, that Zuko was written how he is. Truly, this show is a _masterpiece._
I love these Avatar videos, and I love that you analyze them through the lens of virtue ethics. It has made me want to look into virtue ethics more and explore how I can be more virtuous.
Zuko is one of the greatest developed characters of all time in my opinion and this video put into words what I had always thought so thanks for the great work on this and all your videos
I read some where that Zuko was a super late addition to the story. Ozai was going to be the person chasing the avatar and would send different fire benders after the gAang from the start. But the writers felt like he didn't have a pressence since he was so far away so they created Zuko. Its crazy that Zuko wasn't originally going to be in the show bc I can't imagine the story without him.
@@youtubepunisher8695 Meh Aang didn't really that significant of a character arc, at the beginning he was a happy go lucky kid and at the end he was a slightly more serious happy go lucky kid
Probably not, however, I do think it would a serious mental strain, which is probably why the showrunners had him get physically sick to visually demonstrate the mental toll
There could be some truth to it honestly. I’ve found that after enough emotional stress (say, the complete and rapid disintegration of your most core beliefs held since childhood and needing to hide said disintegration for safety), physical symptoms can manifest. For me, getting overly stressed (or overexerting myself) now results in what I (toung-in-cheek) call “the wrath of the Porcupine Gods” due to the feeling of having several porcupines shoved all over my body. These spots, if the wrath is triggered frequently enough, develop into stress welts.
These are called psychosomatic symptoms, I'm the same way that stress is correlated with cortisol and cortisol is a chemical- in this way the mental state CAUSES a physical symptom
@@nin2494 It could also be that heavy psychological strain weakens the immune system, causing an increased risk of contracting an illness, or allowing a latent illness to resurface.
Tbh when I saw the series at the time they aired I was just an 8 year old kid with no idea about what zuko’s rage and obsession was all about, but now as an adult I rewatched the series and you can definitely understand the meaning through his actions and also you feel identified with the struggles he has during his journey. I have watched tons of more “serious” animes and animations during my lifetime, most of the characters are good from the beginning to the end, some others were bad and turn good just because, ATLA was intended to be a “kids show” but somehow managed to give an amazing character development and life teaching that most shows can not do. Probably it wasn’t intended but they hit way much more than the audience they were pointing at.
Zuko did learn something while with Toph for that short moment -how to administer tough love! Aang was missing, and that was the most important issue at hand. Sometimes you have to rebuke and chastise, even if it's blunt. The Word of God even says an open rebuke is better than secret love. I didn't like how Toph didn't get her field trip with Zuko, but her timing of wanting to share her sob story was way off.
One of the best video essays I have ever seen, and watching video essays has been a hobby for me for at least 10 years by now. Every statement is spot on. A lot of aspects covered I have not heard in other video essays on Zuko that made me think "How could I/the author of a certain video essay miss that?". The amount of wisdom spit in this video is on a par with Iroh's. A very insightful analyzis!
What I love about the confrontation of zuko and ozai is the parallel to the their Agni Kai. There zuko both refuses to fight but the latter it’s a portrayal of strength, while the first is called weakness.
Every time i watch a video that deep dives this show I just love it even more. it really is one of the best shows of its time. It's so deep yet easy to understand for the audience. Zukos story is especially amazing because a lot of his personal problems are relatable to a lot of us who had a bad upbringing and made a lot of bad decisions. A lot of us have been in some of the positions Zuko was in, trying to figure out what to do with yourself as things progress and you see through the fog that was placed around you. Many of us have felt lost like Zuko did, and had to find our ways through it. and them seeing him finally succeed.
I really love that these types of opinions exist. I get so scared sometimes when i see these movies that completely miss the point and it feels like i am the minority in believing its garbage. This channel makes me regain sanity.
Proverbs 11:2 “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom” Luke: [24] for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. ' And they began to make merry. [25] "Now his elder son was in the field; and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. [26] And he called one of the servants and asked what this meant. Zuko to Iroh the Prodigal Son
When you think about it, ozai is the most counterintuitive character ever you challenge a 13 child who is your own son to a agni kai and cherry on top banished all because he chose not to fight u and show said respect that apparently wasn’t shown before I like the scene during the eclipse where zuko acknowledged this and it really shows how wrongfully treated he was and how it changed his life. Great redemption arc for a character who basically never had a family at all ( besides his mother and uncle)
one of the most beautiful early setups is when we meet zuko in the first episode. when aang sends a bolt of radiant, zuko, who can see it (all the way to the battel ship he commends) give the order - to set a course towards the light. it is a foreshadowing of the rode he will take, the manner in which he will fight for it, as well as the ending goal. to reach the light.
I relate to Zuko heavily. Any errors I make, being my family’s eldest son I’ll tend to push blame on my younger brothers. I feel too much pride in myself I don’t make the effort to take blame and overcome my flaws. I will watch this video every morning to remember how my pride can be negative. Thank you for this lesson to you, Zuko, and especially Uncle Iroh
Zukos story could help a lot of people who are in the constant of seeking validation. Happiness, and pride comes from personal growth. Validation is temporary relief that isn't needed from others.
I know it's not really a canon theory. But I really think Lin Beifong from Korra seems a lot like Zuko. She has a similar character arc, & several similar elements. They both have a mother with a distinctive bloodline that disappeared on them. She has a rivalry with her sister. A scar on her face given to her by a family member in a disagreement. She even briefly loses her bending, as the result of what could be considered a change in her perspective. Both of them go from upholding institutional values to following their own moral code, & both ultimately have to face off against their own family to fix problems that started in the past. There are just a lot of parallels to their stories, & the fact her father was always kept obscure, really made me wonder if Zuko & Toph ended up having an adventure that wasn't appropriate for a PG kid's show. She is around the same age as Zuko's daughter Izumi, & she kinda looks like her too
In some ways perhaps, but they are different. Toph didn't disappear, but she was inattentive to both her children, and they both strove for her love, and emulated her in two extremes- Su being the extreme end of Toph's rebellious nature and Lin being the extreme end of her mother's more stern elements. Su scarring Lin was an honest accident, while Ozai scarring Zuko was intentional and meant to shame him. Lin does break the law at times but her values don't change- she lives to protect people and uphold/enforce Justice. I agree that it takes a fight between siblings to settle matters, and that could be a reference to Zuko/Azula, but the fight between Su and Lin allows them to settle matters, and ultimately what they are fighting about is their mother. Unlike Zuko and Azula, the fight allows them to reconcile. Lin doesn't lose her powers because of a shift in perspective, she loses them because she stays true to herself and won't submit to Amon. I'll grant that Zuko and Lin have some similar personality traits such as a hot temper and a sour disposition, but Lin (perhaps because she is older and less conflicted) is quicker to make nice with the Avatar and even humble herself, as to have her bending restored she has to kneel before Korra.
12:14 for the past year ive been struggling with my own personal problems. This year i decided that instead of running away from my problems, i should face them and be a better version of my yesterday's self. When you said this, i instantly gave your video a like. I know im late to this video, but damn... It was so nice to hear someone else say something that ive been telling myself and others for the past few months. Good video, man
A lot of people don't realize this because it's so rarely accomplished, but a good redemption arc isn't a hard thing to do. It just requires the proper patience and planning, which is usually why they fall apart. Most redemption arcs either feel rushed or unearned and it's usually because they are- a character polled well with audiences so now they want to keep them around or an actor has a lot of buzz so they want to give them a bigger role or budgeting issues make you have to speed up the pace of the story or as a writer you want to redeem a character but didn't account for how much that would take given how much they'd done so you just skip to the redemption and ignore the rest- lots of reasons that usually boil down to a lack of planning or a lack of patience. Zuko had such an amazing redemption arc because they'd always planned to do so and as such he was never really evil like his father and sister. Angry, aggressive, antagonist, but not evil. He was someone who could become just like his father if left with all his anger and hurt or could become like his uncle and it was up to the story to tell us which. Compare that to many other stories that go for the quick "redemption by last minute sacrifice/almost sacrifice" because it's easy and effective in the short term because you won't have to think about the character again. Or they'll retcon the story so that they can shift the blame for their worst deeds to someone else allowing them to be redeemed.
I think Zuko has am advantage because this is a kid's show. It's difficult to redeem a character that has been shown to kill innocent people and have the audience accept it. That is why many stories go the route of having the character sacrifice his own life for redemption. But because avatar is a kids show, Zuko is never really shown killing anybody so we can accept his redemption.
@@yoloswaggins7121i think something to be noted is that, kid show or not, it never strays from the idea of murder and violence. the air nomad genocide and the explicit reveal of their remains comes to mind, as well as katara and sokka's mother kya getting murdered, zuko's mother ursa murdering fire lord azulon, zhao killing yue indirectly by killing the moon spirit, zhao, and later ozai himself, fully trying to murder zuko, and lu ten's death during the siege. none of these things are played with any sort of cartoonish leniency; it's all meant to clearly depict an intentional snuffing of life. hell, azula's character introduction is her threatening to kill the captain of her ship by tossing him overboard and letting him get crushed to death against the rocks -- she also later "kills" aang. it's not that the show couldn't depict zuko killing someone, it's that that's not who his character was.
@@eliza1498 Yeah but we don't really see anyone being killed, and in particular the protaganists are simply not allowed to kill anyone because it's a kid show. If it weren't a kids show, Zuko would have undeniably killed people in the raid on Kyoshi village for example. And it's really difficult to redeem characters who have explicitly killed innocent people. The audience usually won't accept a happy ending for such characters which is why they usually achieve their redemption by sacrificing their lives, as was the case with Darth Vader. But because Avatar is a kid's show, Zuko is never shown doing anything explicitly terrible. He doesn't really hurt anyone despite being a quasi member of an aggressive imperial faction with a bunch of troops under his command. Though I will say that I am surprised that the show was allowed to show Gyatso's decomposed skeleton. That was pretty hardcore.
man I can't believe that I've spent around two hours here through your videos about the avatar, I guess I watched 5 if not 6 videos suggestion leads to another+ reading some comments under each I guess I've surpassed two hours so far
As much as this video is about analyzing character growth in fiction, everything talked about should be applied to everyone's life. These vices to virtues help with becoming a better person and leader in our real lives. Great video.
I liked that you covered pride as a vice. This is something I've noticed myself concerning those around me. I've gotten to where I say, "A drop of pride makes anyone a fool." It's good to be confident and comfortable with one's self but not prideful
im 3 mins into this vid n all i wanna say is that ur extremely wise bro. u summed up everything abt that climb up the mountain of virtue perfectly. as someone who has had there own experiences climbing up that mountain everything u said was 100% correct. u earned a sub bro
I love your video essays on Avatar, have gotten to read any of the Avatar comics yet? They do a great job of exploring the aftermath of the war and introduces some very interesting questions about protecting tradition versus encouraging progress. I'd love to hear your takes on them if you ever read any of them. The first comic you should read is the promise.
Seeing Zuko relapse and betray Iroh is the best moment in the show imo. Of course, itd be nothing without the buildup or the redemption thereafter, but as someone who's recovering in the same way Zuko was, seeing him relapse, and then get better and make up for it has been encouraging for me. That's why he's my favourite character
It was good to hear about true humility once more. And to bring it up with King Aragorn and Firelord Zuko, that's some 2 contrasting characters to bring up humility huh?
When I think of Zuko, the first thing I think of is 'Honor', just the same as the first thing I think of when I think of Kaladin. Is it strange that the people who see a lack of honor are also the people with it?
Zuko’s redemption arc is the goat for sure, but people honestly overlook Aangs redemption arc as well with him running away from being the avatar to being proud to be the avatar
Born into a pack There's no choice but take orders to attack Locked up in chains, I get fed But the hunger still remains Not content to live this way Being led by the blind Got to plan my dispersal Time to leave them all behind - MGR: I’m My Own Master Now
I think another part of Zuko and Katara's journey is: Zuko understands revenge, how empty it is. He helped Katara on her quest knowing that when given the chance, she would realize the truth. Revenge is lowering yourself to level of one you hate,that is why it is empty. And she needed the support and aid to learn that lesson. Being preached to wouldn't help her at all. And Zuko understood that all to well. Because he learned it from his true father, Iroh.
I really enjoy your videos, the analyses are really good! I also feel like I'm learning a lot from them, so thanks! I have a bit of feedback on the editing to possibly make the videos even more impactful: music, from the show or otherwise, can do a great deal in giving an already good video even more impactful. Perhaps consider adding some Avatar score in the background. Looking forward to the next upload!
I've noticed in your videos about ATLA (this one is the third I've watched) that whenever you discuss a character's vice and/or struggles - or their virtues - you consistently point out that *the problem is rooted in themselves.* No matter their background and circumstances, there is always something _inside_ the character in question that needs to be identified and confronted in order for them to grow and mature, both as an individual and as part of a group/society. It was a very welcome surprise to come across a creator that does not sugarcoat the constant daily battle that is life for a human being who wants to become a better version of themself. When it comes to this particular video, I wanted to share some of my own thoughts about the character in question. *And before I forget to mention it again, the video was really, really good!* I think what makes Zuko so appealing, is that his development wasn't built on revenge and self-satisfaction. Neither was it smooth sailing as soon as he admitted his shortcomings and decided to repent. Rather, he emerged as a compassionate, patient and insightful young man towards the end of Book 3 beacuse he started to sacrifice the parts of himself that he identified as harmful or useless. Lo and behold, as he seized this mindset and persevered in it, his vices were gradually overcome and replaced by virtues. He worked hard to remain true to his conviction when faced by adversaries, but perhaps even harder when he had to square off against old tendencies and the ghosts of his past. Instead of demanding immediate acceptance and forgiveness after apologising, he acknowledged the weight of his previous wrongdoings and put effort into proving his change of heart through action. I think anyone who has made the choice of owning up to their mistakes/wrongdoings can relate to Zuko's journey as a person to a lesser or greater degree.
One disappointment that I had in "The Southern Raiders" is how Zuko kept framing in terms of good vs. evil, but was clearly showing disdain for what he called "good" in that episode. My problem stems from the fact that, in episodes prior to that, he kept insisting that he was on the side of good; yet, for this one episode, seemed to reject that. You could argue that it was just one more way in which Zuko's journey was still facing setbacks. However, I have a better idea how it could have been handled. In Justice League Unlimited, there was an episode in which Huntress tried to murder the gangster who killed her parents. This put her at odds with the rest of the Justice League, and even got her kicked out of the team. The Question was the only JL member who supported her and helped her. But he had his reasons: it was to put her in the position where he could ask the question she most desperately needed to ask of herself: "Is this what you really want?" By siding with her, and supporting her need for closure, the Question earned her trust, but more importantly, showed that, of all the members of the JL, he was the one who most understood her need. She stopped the gangster, but spared his life. I feel that Zuko was doing the same thing there. He saw Katara's need to confront the man who murdered her mother, and he knew that she would never be able to move forward until she did. What if he was being the Question? What if he was simply allowing her to confront her need in herself, but also asking her, "Is this what you really want?" I don't think Zuko was rejecting good, not really anyway (and they should have refrained from having him state it in those terms), but rather rejecting the black-and-white morality that Aang was trying to impose onto Katara. But the ending shows Zuko really is the Question: "How do you plan to stop my father?" Aang's black-and-white morality is going to hinder him from stopping Ozai, and Zuko needs Aang to realize that. It's amazing how deep kids' shows can be sometimes. It's a shame that modern adult entertainment can't accomplish that anymore.
i really like your interpretation -- truthfully, i've never read too much into this episode beyond, as you said, zuko intentionally challenging the black and white morality of "killing is bad, even if it's a genocidal dictator intent on world domination". i think something interesting that may support your comparison is the parallel to zuko's confrontation with the man who made _his_ mother disappear. although zuko had the opportunity to kill ozai during the eclipse, something ozai even acknowledges, zuko rejects the idea because "it's not [his] destiny". even after he finds out that ozai was behind his mother's disappearance, he reinforces his decision by intentionally throwing his aim when redirecting ozai's lightning back at him -- something we know would be fatal, as ozai did not know how to redirect lightning. zuko's presence in the southern raiders episode means something because not only has he also lost his mother, he has been in the _exact same situation_ of having the opportunity to kill the man responsible in an act of vengeance. interestingly, katara, just like zuko, makes the decision to spare yon rha despite being actively encouraged to carry it out - like ozai did to zuko, and zuko did to her. in this way, zuko does directly serve as the question, challenging her to think about how she intends to handle the struggle of killing or not killing. one last thing to support your interpretation is that zuko doesn't deride her for being "weak" the way you would expect someone who "hates" "good" to have done - he doesn't even seem surprised by her decision when standing in the background during her speech to yon rha. in fact, the only time he genuinely seems surprised is when he thinks katara _will_ kill him -- he only relaxes back to a neutral stance when she "drops her weapon" , as it were. katara initially wonders if it makes her weak, but ultimately comes to the conclusion that she doesn't need to have enacted revenge to move on, and that refusal to kill him doesn't mean forgiveness. zuko seems to have come to the same realization about ozai, finding peace in the aftermath of the war even if his father still lives, and understanding that he does not need to forgive him for anything he's done. even though the end technically goes with aang's decision in not killing ozai, they still reject the idea of it being black-and-white, as shown by katara refuting aang's claims that she has "forgiven" yon rha. i think this episode served as a good middle ground -- with the separation of mercy and forgiveness established, i think they could really have gone either way with making aang kill or not kill ozai while still not contradicting the fact that, at the time, killing ozai really did seem to be the only path forward. as a bonus, i think this may also serve as commentary on zuko's own redemption arc: zuko's decision to work towards redemption is not taken at face value, it's something he has to work for. even then, it's not portrayed as a given that katara, or any of the others, must forgive him for what he has done. katara decides to forgive him as a direct result of this episode and i think that symbolizes that, whether it was the intention of the writers or not, katara did truly feel that zuko fully understood the situation she was in and supported her decisions, just as the comparison you made to the huntress and the question.
Your discussion of Perseverance vs. Stubbornness reminded me of the demotivational poster: Perseverance - The courage to avoid the obvious wisdom of turning back.
I have a lot of disagreements with this video. Before I go into this I wanna state that I am not attacking or insulting the RUclipsr who made this video, he just says a lot of things I think are wrong. Ok so first right at the beginning of the video he said emotional maturity doesn't come to mind in association with zuko, I disagree with this because at the end of his story he is extremely emotionally mature and as his arc is what he is known for, the end product of his character development is what he is known for, this is a small thing but I personally disagree with it nonetheless. 7:25 Master Samwise says "This Agni kai is a beautiful demonstration of how the two have swapped places" - now this is not actually wrong but he then goes on to elaborate; at 7:50 he says "Azula has become the worst of zuko, blinded by rage, grasping at a power that leaves her unsatisfied" In my opinion. he misses the point here. Zuko was never power hungry - and Azula was always power-hungry. For example, S2E7 This is purposefully shown with how the two react to Lu Ten's death. Zuko is upset and empathetic, while Azula is happy her cousin has died as it could advance her insignificant branch of the royal family and pave her father's way to the throne aka power. She also ensures her power in S3E1 by lying to ozai that zuko killed the avatar so that when the avatar is discovered as alive so that zuko falls from grace as a result. Zuko on the other and in S1E20 tries to save his nemesis Zhao out of purely selfless and honorable purposes even though it would very likely hurt him in the long run and hinder potential power. Zuko was never someone who grasped at power. 10:45 Master Samwise praises zuko for not speaking out in the war meeting that takes place S3E9 (though shown properly S3E18) , at 10:45 saying "Zuko does not immediately fly off the handle and protest the genocidal proposal, instead, he allows that anger drive him to make the prudent upright choice to desert the fire nation at the opportune moment". This is a completely different motivation than what zuko himself cites as the reason for not speaking out, and this instance is not the example of zuko being less impulsive that Master Samwise is framing it as. In S3E18, Zuko talks about this exact moment when he was in that war meeting, he says "I wanted to speak out against this horrifying plan, but i'm ashamed to say I didn't. My whole life, I've struggled to gain my father's love and acceptance. But once I had it, I'd lost myself getting there". Whether not speaking out and waiting was the wise, prudent choice or not (it probably was), that wasn't zuko's motivation behind keeping quiet. He even plays a brief clip of Zuko expressing this very regret muted over Master Samwise's narration quoted above. 11:32 in reference to Zuko helping katara kill her mother's killer (and also provoking aang into doing more training, though this one isn't relevant to my critique outside that he was not armed with the information that would have made this worth taking into consideration - in which the fault belongs to Aang and the others), Master Samwise says zuko "doesn't put a lot of time into thinking about the issue at hand" This is false. In this episode (S3E16). Zuko waits for hours and hours - all through the night outside katara's tent awake before proposing to her that he can help her avenge her mother's death. Therefore, it is completely incorrect to say that he didn't put time into thinking about it, he almost certainly put very much time into thinking about this. 12:40 Master Samwise says "Zuko stubbornly drags his uncle and crew across the known world looking for the avatar regardless of their own desires or even wellbeing". This is not really true. S1E8, he ignores a sighting of the avatar to go rescue Iroh. S1E9, he allows his crew to deviate from the Avatar's trail simply so Iroh can buy a new lotus tile, S1E12 makes a point of refuting this. When zuko is told of a storm and the safety risks that it may entail should they continue sailing zuko exclaims "The safety of the crew doesn't matter". However, later in this episode, when the storm does actually result in danger, Zuko is the one there to rescue his crewmate. He then demands the ship sail to safety instead of pursuit at the avatar (even after seeing Appa flying above, EVEN when the crewmates advocate for pursuit over safety). He also then apologises to Iroh. Zuko came to both these decisions on his own and out of his own conscience - the message and consensus of the episode is that zuko does care and it is purposefully displayed and shown. 17:32 Master Samwise says that by the last quarter of S3E14, Zuko "is no longer only thinking of himself and his desires, he is now able to use his natural bravery in the service of others". In my opinion this again fails to understand the base and point of his character and where his flaws derive from. Zuko was not selfish and incapable of serving others. He is the way he is in the beginning of the series because of his unwavering service to his father, as well as his selfless protests for the 41st division. This unwavering devotion, service and eagerness to please takes him to the extent where in S2E20, he ignores the obvious sufferings that the Earth Kingdom people endure as a result of Ozai and the fire nation's ruthless colonisation in order to work for his father. If zuko's problem was that he were *only* selfish and self serving, he wouldn't have been so obstinate to Iroh in S2E1 that Ozai loves him and therefore attempting to justify the severe abuse that Zuko suffered at his hands. It wasn't selfishness that led him on a relentless pursuit of aang, it was extreme and toxic selflessness to one person. This is not to say that zuko doesn't have plenty moments of selfishness - because he does, even as a result in the pursuit of Aang, but since this pursuit of aang comes from selfless routes, it is not fundamental or strong enough (in my opinion) to say that it is a core flaw that has been specifically flipped/rectified by the end of the show. Throughout the show, it is shown that zuko is often capable of selflessness in many instances both before , during and after his "redemption arc". Examples include S1E3 when he decides not to burn Zhao, (see the examples I used in the previous point - S1 E 8, 9 & 12), S1E20, he offers to save Zhao's life purely out of honour, morality and selflessness. It is false to say he was always "only" thinking of himself and his own desires. (second half of this in the reply section - RUclips won't let me comment something so long)
18:29 Master Samwise states "Zuko has spent 2 and a half books pushing his own desires". He says this over a muted clip from S2E17 where Iroh explicitly states that Zuko has been neglecting his own desires in pursuit of his destiny and what others want from him. To quote, iroh pleads "I'm begging you Prince Zuko, It's time for you to look inwards and start asking yourself the big questions; who are you and what do you want?". This is so on the nose that I can't help but believe Master Samwise placed this clip here intentionally, as he interprets that what Iroh was saying wasn't in reference to Zuko's desires and rather something else, but I think the point that Iroh was very much making, is that Zuko has not spent 2 and a half books pushing his own desires - a precise contradiction of the voice over. If Master Samwise didn't interpret it in some other way, then perhaps he disagrees with Iroh, but if that's the case, he might want to elaborate and explain why he disagrees with Iroh - and subsequently Zuko; as this results in Zuko freeing Appa and throwing away his blue spirit mask - implying that Iroh got through to him and that he agrees with what Iroh says regarding Zuko's "desires". 22:17 Master Samwise says "How do we grow in virtue? We learn to live not for ourselves, but for those who need us, those whom we love, that is Zuko's character arc in a nutshell", I will refrain on expressing why I believe this emphasis on zuko's selfishness is misguided and overblown since I've explained that previously. I don't think it's all that prevalent. He is selfish in multiple instances of course, since he is human - but I don't think so in a compulsive and exclusive way that suggests a central character flaw to overcome, he is far too often also very selfless, and even from early on in the story for that to be what his arc is centred around in my opinion. I would even go as far to invoke Plato's Golden Mean with selflessness in relation to zuko. He is selfless for others (his father) to the point of wilful ignorance to the evil he is complicit in (though that complacence is also in part due to his punishment for fighting against that evil previously), and he needs to learn to balance that selflessness in so that he actually does put himself first where he needs and allows himself to be happy (which is what brings on a lot of his change in the earth kingdom post iroh's speech in S2E17), as well as displeasing and disavowing the person he has been so devoted to, and brought so much pain to himself and sacrificed so much of himself in order to try and please. But either way, I really disagree that selfishness (although at times present eg stealing Song's ostrich horse in S1E2) is what zuko's arc is built around - or his arc "in a nutshell" at all. I think that the broader meaning of his arc derives from duality and understanding right and wrong (something zuko himself expresses is why he has so much inner turmoil in S3E5 "I'm angry at myself (...) because I'm confused, because I'm not sure I know the difference between right and wrong anymore") . His redemption arc does not start in the first episode, or at any other point in the series, His redemption arc begins in his early years of life, when his father initially grew to disdain him. He's spent the vast majority of his life on his knees (very literally on multiple occasions), trying to "redeem" himself to one person or another. First to Ozai, especially from the Agni kai onwards, trying to atone to his father for his past "misdeeds". Then when he realises that he was right to fight for good ie speaking out at the war meeting(the very thing that he was trying to "redeem" himself from ), he now has to redeem himself to the people he hurt in his previous misguided "path to redemption". Because his need to atone to the "good guys" derives from him being in a position where he was put in due to severe punishment for trying to be good, it's a frustrating character arc and one that is incredibly painful to watch - especially given how un-linear it is (something Master Samwise mentions often that I completely agree with). All the love to this creator, just because I disagree with a lot, doesn't mean I don't respect him making this video, a lot of his other videos are excellent and I agree with much.
So on your first point, yes that clip was very much intentional. Zuko struggles with figuring out what he wants, and in that moment does choose something greater than his own selfish desires. But then he goes and rejects that choice a few episodes later when the chance to "redeem" himself completely is presented. Like I say, character arcs are bumpy. I think we may be defining selfishness/selflessness differently. I would not say that Zuko is selfless for his father, but rather that his serving Ozai is part of how he lives for himself. Take his sister, for example. Azula only serves her father because it is in her own self interest. Does Zuko harbor more warmth for Ozai than Azula does? Maybe. Zuko does seem to genuinely want his father to love him. I think you make a good point that Zuko's arc is defined more by learning right and wrong. My scope was perhaps too small or I should have phrased it differently. Zuko starts out believing that what is good for him is good for the Fire Nation is good for the world. He ends up with a much broader and whole understanding of what is truly right, due to his travels and experiences, and of course the wisdom of his uncle. In doing so, he learns to look outward instead of inward. As a general rule, we humans fall into vice when we look out only for ourselves and can only find goodness when we are truly interested in the wellbeing of others, and that's what I see so poignantly in Zuko's story. Anyhow, thank you for all your thoughts and well-laid-out criticism. I can't tell you how much I appreciate someone honestly and fairly critiquing my work. Much love.
@@master_samwise Hey I really appreciate your measured response and think you make some interesting points. I think you're right that we might define selflessness differently. Though I think an aspect of having such a wide definition of selfishness is that it might get to the point where it is applicable to everyone, and falls into the philosophy of psychological egoism. For example, this reasoning could argue that William Wilberforce's devoted 50 year campaign for the abolition of slavery could derive from his strong evangelical christian convictions and his will to go to heaven and not damned to hell. So from that perspective, perhaps it can be argued zuko is "selfish" - if I am interpreting your response correctly. If you subscribe to psychological egoism, then I would wish to know why zuko is particularly selfish or self serving (where it is expressed so much in the video) in your opinion. If you do not subscribe to psychological egoism, I'd be interested to know what your line would be, as eventually the case could be made that the other members of team avatar are also selfish for their actions, since they also think what's good for them is good for their respective nations is good for the world - only they were on the right side of history. Furthermore, whatever the answer may be to that, Zuko puts this mission to capture the avatar in jeopardy on several occasions (as which I have listed previously in the first of my two initial comments - as zukos desires was technically not my first point, but the first point of the second part of my 2-part comment, since RUclips had character limits for individual comments) for selfless reasons, id even go to say that whenever he is confronted with either saving someone in his life, or pursuing an opportunity to chase the avatar, he more often than not chooses the former (granted to your case, the crossroads of destiny - being a more absolute prospect, and not merely an opportunity because as we are in strong agreement, his arc and decisions are not linear). I also would personally argue that zuko's love for Ozai was more genuine than azula's. I say this because Azula firstly does not display any love for any family members and revels in their death and suffering while zuko displays the opposite. Azula is also willing to deceive Ozai to his detriment and azula's gain (lying about the avatar being dead - S3E1) Zuko on the other hand is so loyal and loving to Ozai that even when ordered to fight his father he cannot bring himself to. Another very interesting thing to consider is whenever they deviate from Ozai's interests, the reasons in which they do this. For example in Zuko's stead, Zuko never refrains from capturing the avatar for selfish reasons, or even malicious reasons. Whereas In an audio commentary for S2E8, When Azula is caught between Aang and Zuko and strikes Zuko. Brian on the commentary clarifies that between landing a hit on Aang - thus benefitting Ozai's needs and attacking zuko, Azula chooses attacking zuko. Again I greatly appreciate your response and your willingness to hear differing opinions as I enjoy listening to yours, productive and friendly disagreement is hard to come by these days.
@@wherermytacos5903 I think ( and Master Samwise can probably give a better explanation of his own opinion here) that early Zuko is selfish in a very different way than characters like Ozai and Azula. Ozai and Azula continually think of only themselves. They are motivated almost solely by their own interests and have no care for others. Zuko is selfish in a way much like most of us. I think many people, myself included, do struggle with moments selfishness and have moments of selflessness. Zuko, as stated beautifully in the video, is drive by his sense of shame. As we know from Iroh, pride is not the opposite of shame but its source. Being prideful inherently involves thinking of oneself before others. I would propose that Zuko's early character has moments of selfishness ( "the safety of the crew doesn't matter." running the blockade in the spirit world part 2, which certainly puts his crew at risk. stealing the animal from the earth kingdom family.) and moments of selflessness that you expertly pointed out in your comments. So much of Zuko's character is a struggle between these two sides. His dark and his light. Slowly he grows in virtue and becomes less and less selfish. So its overall not that Zuko is a completely selfish horrible person like Ozai or Azula. He has a good heart and does choose to help others to his own potential detriment early on. He does however often act in a misguided and sometimes selfish manner. The rest of the Gaang absolutely have moments of selfishness throughout the show (Aang hiding Hakoda's note. Katara stealing the waterbending scroll and endangering the others when she practices secretly at night. Toph refusing to help the others with tasks in The Chase. Ect). They are farther along the path of virtue towards consistent unselfishness because they have the advantage of not having Ozai as a father. Zuko is an extremely relatable character because he struggles with these vices and only slowly grows. Most people have selfish motivations or reactions at times. We all need to grow in virtue. His arc ( as you both stated well) is not linear. It is also not an arc from pure evil to pure good. From pure selfishness to pure selflessness. Zuko is not entirely defined by selfishness. It is a vice with which he fights and grows out of over time. I think that while Zuko has those moments even in Book 1 where he chooses to help others rather than himself, he is noticeably much more selfless by the end of the show. He has struggled with his inner demons and grown from vice into virtue. I believe this is what MasterSamwise is talking about when he states that Zuko has to become less selfish in his character growth. I hope that made some sense and was not too repetitive. I have loved reading this discussion.
Seeing what happened with Zuko made me cry too. I just didn't get it at first and I just rooted for him to figure it all out. Bump your father! Bump your sour sister! Listen to your heart and find what YOU want in YOUR life!
Zuko didn't admit he couldn't beat azula. Iroh wasnt sure if he could beat ozai. When fighting azula came up at the white lotus/team avatar meeting zuko said "i can take her." It wasnt until after iroh said he couldnt do it alone did he offer for katara to join him
Also really helped they introduced azula in season 2 so we had a worse villian that hurt zuko and team avatar. Gives us a reason to believe in his redemption and accept it universally
Just the words you have chose and everything you said So wisdomous it is applicable in real life also I feel I'm learning about virtue with this videos You must be an amazing intellectual deep person ❤️
4:00 while a portion of Zuko’s rage and anger is his own fault, you are seriously off base here. His anger from his abuse is not his fault. Zuko was put in an impossible situation and much of his turmoil is his nation’s and father’s fault.
Exactly! There's a bible verse that tells fathers not to engage their children, to treat them right. Poor zuko. Why does he remind me so much of Spock from Star Trek? Bad father who shows no love and expects the impossible. Only his mother loved him. Both come from basically royalty , had too much pride, hated themselves, and didn't want to ask for help, etc. I love Zuko and Spock. Their arcs are awesome. Curiously both characters are blamed by fans for things their fathers put into them 🤔
And therin lies the point. While there's a rationale behind the anger(caused by his father's bad treatment) ultimately the feeling is his, his to feel, his to fester and let grow and his to let go.
Zuko was in three Agni Kai's with three different people - Ozai, Zhao and Azula. They all broke/bent the rules somehow so he was more honorable than the three of them.
So I know I don't talk a lot about Zuko and Iroh's relationship in this video, and that's somewhat intentional. It would have made the video unbearably long, and honestly their relationship is worth a video all its own.
Yes. Please make that a video.
Please make dat a video, we need it
As good and influential as Iroh is to Zuko's story, I love that since book 2 they are somewhat separated and in the comics, he is not by his side. Zuko needed to grow on his own and find his own path, that is why I totally agreed with him choosing Azula's side at the end of book 2. His destiny was not a simple life in Earth kingdom, his life and destiny were to take his father's place and outgrow his toxic family and face the abuse they implemented on him. If he listened to Iroh then, he would not have a conclusion to his family life and there would always be this big " what if" in his life.
I ship Azula and Zuko
@@thegoldendiamond6762
First off gross. Secondly, what is the relevance to this thread?
"Don't think less of yourself; think of yourself less." Words to live by.
Pretty sure that came from C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity.
Another quote but by G.K Chesterton "The angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly."
I get this quote, but I don’t really like it either.
I think a better phrase is to think of others just as much if not more think think of yourself.
@uraveragehoovy there are 24 hours in a day. You use about 16 of them. How many of those hours are you alone? How many of them do you spend working? How many of them do you spend eating, drinking, and sleeping? It's easy to say that you should think of others as much as yourself, but l, truthfully we can easily spend any amount of time thinking of what we want or need and getting it. In an effort to extraordinary rather than simply fulfilling the bare minimum of common decency, you have to be willing to give more than and equal amount of time to thinking of others. Thus spake Jesus Christ.
@@xavierthomas5835 i think its metaphorical
For me, the most interesting thing about Zuko's arc is in his betrayal of Iroh. In most movies and tv shows, when a character betrays someone, they soon realize that this wasn't what they wanted or that they've lost the thing that was most important to them, or something cliche like that. But in Zuko's case, he gets everything he's ever wanted. His "honor", his father's respect, Mai's love. Everything goes back to normal. But Zuko has changed, and he realizes that this is no longer who he is. It really is the perfect character arc.
That actually did kind of happen to Zuko right at the cave. He knew it was the wrong decision but could not resist the temptation. He could not even say anything to Iroh or even face him.
Agreed i love it
It looks like Zuko needed to know what it felt to be accepted back by his father and welcomed like a hero in his nation. The problem is 1) he knew he took the bad decision 2) he knew the whole "I killed the Avatar" thing was a lie 3) his esteemed uncle wouldn't talk to him after what he had done. He needed to find out that what he had striven to achieve wasn't a fulfillment because he only did it to seek his father's approbation. Like all toxic people, Ozai had somehow convinced Zuko that he was never good enough, and that he deserved to be disfigured and exiled (generational trauma at its "best"). It took Zuko time to understand the only person who could give him his honour back was himself. We had a hint on Ember Island when he finally admitted he was angrier than ever although he seemingly had what he always wanted.
@PhebusdesTours nice Analysis
The best redemption arc in tv/film.
For sure, the best redemption arcs have the characters stumble and fail along the path to change.
100%
Thofinn
Yeah either Zuko or Anakin
@@Jomama24200 aniken did 2 u turns
When *I* think of Zuko, the first thing that comes to mind is *"My honor!"*
thats rough buddy
Hello, Zuko here.
How about "my cabbages!" ?
@@LetyQwhen you think of Zuko?
I tend to think of how he's damn near suicidial in his actions till book 3
Zukos betrayal of Iroh was one of those key moments that made this show a masterpiece for me. Any other show would have used all the buildup to make Zuko a good guy. But that moment showed how such a huge shift is NOT easy and how seeking forgiveness for that action is not so simple, in his redemption arc!
Spot on!
Zuko joining the gaang would be a giant leap and would at very least feel forced, as that would he would have to turn his back on his country which means turning his back on his father. For three years he had been trying to get his father's respect by trying to hunt the avatar. Turning away all that because his uncle "suddenly" wants them to save the world.
I still would like to see what would have happened had Iroh managed to convince him.
TECHNICALLY Iroh betrayed Zuko. I mean-he did the right thing. But technically Zuko and Iroh were not the Avatar's allies at the point as far as he knew. He knew his Uncle didn't like the idea of continuing the hunt for the Avatar-but going against what he wants is not the same as betraying him. He didn't attack Iroh either-he just kinda stood there in shock. Now Zuko's shitty behavior in the aftermath of that battle is another story.
I also love how they show that forgiveness is not so simple, and eventually we see that zuko doesn't even seek forgiveness so much as reconciliation. Iroh, though, has already forgiven him.
Ok, "Fire banishes darkness, warms the body...and most importantly, heats tea" is the most accurate line 😂
*Ahem* I think you mean "Hot Leaf Juice!"
"How come someone from internet can say something so horribly "
@@tharun.s9718Woah. Take a breather.
Sounds like something Iroh would say
19:32
Toph never had a revelatory journey with Zuko because she had already learned what she needed, specifically that it's okay to rely on and ask for help from others, when she met Iroh. Great video, as always.
Very true. She had her character arc for sure. Still would have been an awesome episode
That's honestly a great point.
I still think they could have written an episode where Toph teaches Zuko about being less stubborn/accepting help from others. Something along the lines of him trying to prove himself as useful to the gang, then he gets in over his head and she has to help him. But as someone who has made the same mistakes herself, she'd be the best one to show him asking for help makes you stronger as a team, not weaker as an individual. Maybe place it in-between the Aang and Sokka episodes since he does jump very suddenly to being a team player
Iron really is the best 😂
Can't agree. Accepting help never made me feel stronger.
Only more of a failure.
that moment when Zuko tells the sky "c'mon strike me, you always do" with heartburn's tears always hit hard
“You’ve always thrown everything you could at me, well, I can take it, and now I can give it back!” …
“COME ON! STRIKE ME! YOUVE NEVER HELD BACK BEFORE.”
That scene hits so hard. You’re not the crowned prince. You have no loyalties to the fire nation. You never really feel yourself cheering for Zuko. But damn, do you feel that with him.
Only now I see that zuko's hair really reflects his change, from a pointy, threatening style with lots of edges, to a round, whole hair that shows how complete he became
He went from the most hated to the most loved character. And it felt like a natural progression! That's rare for a lot of media.
I always loved him except maybe ep 1
Vegeta??
What comes to my mind when I hear Zuko...
Pain. Trauma. Rage. Wounded pride.
But also
Growth. Humility. And Acceptance.
One of the best written characters i have seen in a show in a long time, and I love how people are still coming back to analyze his character.
Zuko x Azula is also underrated
@@thegoldendiamond6762dude, that was one humorous answer from azulas voice actress at a q&a panel, stop while you're ahead
To me? He goes from a raging inferno to a warm bonfire and a guiding candle.
Also Honor
@@thegoldendiamond6762I see that you are from Alabama.
Zuko always believed his destiny was to capture the avatar, and restore his honor. He did exactly that - though not in the way he thought.
He made friends with the Avatar. And he restored not only his honor, but the honor of the fire nation as a whole.
The war began with the Avatar and his close friend/fire lord drifting away and becoming opposing forces.
The war ended with the Avatar and the Fire Lord/close friend coming together and restoring balance to the world.
This is phenomenal story writing. There are parallels EVERYWHERE.
From a prince to a petty thief to a refugee and back to a prince then a rebel and then the Fire Lord. And every last bit of it, good and bad, all earned. Yin and Yang represented perfectly through Zuko’s Journey.
Zuko had the best Evil guy to Hero guy redemption arc in cartoon history.
Azula x Zuko
@@thegoldendiamond6762
NO NO STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHAT. ARE. YOU. DOING.
NO STOP WAIT PLEASE NOOOOOOOOO
@@thegoldendiamond6762 Ewww hell no!
@@gamerdom4481what do they mean? I don't get it
@@larawalkerIncest Zuko x Azula
The fact that so many movies/tv shows nowadays are obsessed with not having a villain or "everyone being a good guy" in some form or "redeeming bad guys" but in a bad or unrealistic way makes me think of how good the characters and story was in ATLA.
I too am annoyed with that trend. Sometimes a villain is just a villain, even in real life.
"Your honour was in my sleeve the whole time"
*grabs honor angrily*
*yeets it into the abyss*
@@paria1763 "WHY DIDN'T U GIVE ME IT EARLIER THEN THIS WOULD OF BEEN DONE ALREADY" 😅😂😂
cool thing about Zuko: his scar is more than just rule of cool
Usually a villain’s scar is a one-note tragic backstory or something to make them more scary. But it’s so much more than that with Zuko. The incident that caused the scar was traumatic and horrible and has a major impact on his character. It’s not just a cool character design, it’s important and thought through
I totally agree and it also lends itself to great visual storytelling as well. I forget what episode it was, but i remember a scene where he was contemplating something and they showed the side of his face without the scar and then switched to the same shot, but showing the side with the scar. Its such a simple detail but it so clearly communicates his inner conflict in that moment
@speakevermore it was when he was in conflict wondering to choose Azula and everything "he ever wanted", or Iroh and embrace the change. That was so brilliant
@speakevermore This is also not the only visual storytelling we get with the scar. For example at the very beginning of the show, episode 2 or 3 when he challenges Zhao for Agni Kai, Iroh asks him if he remembers the last time he was fighting in an Agni Kai. The camera slowly moves, stopping at the side with Zuko's scar and then Zuko says "I'll never forget". There's more probably but I can't remember at the moment
Usually, a villain's physical deformity only serves to highlight how evil they are. It's a form of dehumanization- a physical manifestation of the "rot" in their soul. But Zuko's scar serves not to highlight his villainy, but rather his GOODNESS. He got the scar because he took a stand against something he KNEW was wrong.
One thing I love about the way they wrote Zuko/Iroh is how they were able to maintain Iroh as an unwavering source of true wisdom and righteousness who didn't have, for lack of a better word, weaknesses. While this is usually done badly in media, I think they did a good job of acknowledging his past flaws and mistakes that led him to where he was, Zuko's arc feels like it was a mirror of Iroh's, and one that we could follow along with to see how Iroh got to where he is today.
Iroh definitely felt like someone who was once as flawed as Zuko then had somehow become a paragon of true virtue and kindness.
Much as I _wish_ the show had given us a Zuko & Toph Life-Changing Field Trip™, I completely understand why it wasn't given to us-- they didn't *need* it. Everyone else on the team had had bad experiences with Zuko in the past and needed to see for themselves how he'd grown and changed. Toph, on the otherhand, had no such experiences, was predisposed to liking him on Iroh's behalf, and was willing to accept him on board right away. (Even when he burnt her feet, she didn't blame him, because she had the maturity to understand that it was an unintended mistake, rather than a brutal attack.)
Zuko is my favorite character in Avatar. He's also the character I see most of myself in. He's honorable, perseverant and driven, but he's also prideful, wrathful and generally, as you put it perfectly, driven by shame. I like and dislike those traits in myself and I actually used a lot of Iroh's advice while trying to improve myself. I see a lot of my time in college in Zuko. I was very full of myself when I first set out on my path as a professional, and I was struck down by that pride and shame again and again. It was only when I accepted my faults and limitations that I narrowly avoided being flunked out. And I will graduate this year. What a beautiful thing, that Zuko was written how he is. Truly, this show is a _masterpiece._
I love these Avatar videos, and I love that you analyze them through the lens of virtue ethics. It has made me want to look into virtue ethics more and explore how I can be more virtuous.
I ship Katara and Sokka
@@thegoldendiamond6762don’t be weird
Zuko is one of the greatest developed characters of all time in my opinion and this video put into words what I had always thought so thanks for the great work on this and all your videos
They should've made Zuko x Azula canon
@@thegoldendiamond6762WTF
WHY THAT'S INCEST
First appearance in ATLA: I must capture the Avatar!
First appearance in TLOK: The Avatar must be protected!
Development, people.
I read some where that Zuko was a super late addition to the story. Ozai was going to be the person chasing the avatar and would send different fire benders after the gAang from the start. But the writers felt like he didn't have a pressence since he was so far away so they created Zuko. Its crazy that Zuko wasn't originally going to be in the show bc I can't imagine the story without him.
I've been binging all of your avatar videos the last few days and this could not come at a better time. Keep up the great work.
That's so cool to hear! I absolutely will.
Zuko, Toph, Iroh, Azula, Katara. Avatar had some of the best characters in american shows.
Agreed. No one mentions Aang tho 😂
@@youtubepunisher8695 Meh Aang didn't really that significant of a character arc, at the beginning he was a happy go lucky kid and at the end he was a slightly more serious happy go lucky kid
To not mention the guy that went from being a village champion to leading a full scale invasion is crazy
I thought it was so deep when zuko set free Appa and then got physically sick. Can this really happen?
Probably not, however, I do think it would a serious mental strain, which is probably why the showrunners had him get physically sick to visually demonstrate the mental toll
There could be some truth to it honestly. I’ve found that after enough emotional stress (say, the complete and rapid disintegration of your most core beliefs held since childhood and needing to hide said disintegration for safety), physical symptoms can manifest. For me, getting overly stressed (or overexerting myself) now results in what I (toung-in-cheek) call “the wrath of the Porcupine Gods” due to the feeling of having several porcupines shoved all over my body. These spots, if the wrath is triggered frequently enough, develop into stress welts.
These are called psychosomatic symptoms, I'm the same way that stress is correlated with cortisol and cortisol is a chemical- in this way the mental state CAUSES a physical symptom
@@nin2494 It could also be that heavy psychological strain weakens the immune system, causing an increased risk of contracting an illness, or allowing a latent illness to resurface.
yes. not specifically this, but immense stress and mental issues have direct and major effects on ones physical health.
The genius of Iro planting the seeds of rumors of how just the prince is , while also of course giving the audience exposition, is so Iro.
Tbh when I saw the series at the time they aired I was just an 8 year old kid with no idea about what zuko’s rage and obsession was all about, but now as an adult I rewatched the series and you can definitely understand the meaning through his actions and also you feel identified with the struggles he has during his journey. I have watched tons of more “serious” animes and animations during my lifetime, most of the characters are good from the beginning to the end, some others were bad and turn good just because, ATLA was intended to be a “kids show” but somehow managed to give an amazing character development and life teaching that most shows can not do. Probably it wasn’t intended but they hit way much more than the audience they were pointing at.
Zuko did learn something while with Toph for that short moment -how to administer tough love! Aang was missing, and that was the most important issue at hand. Sometimes you have to rebuke and chastise, even if it's blunt.
The Word of God even says an open rebuke is better than secret love.
I didn't like how Toph didn't get her field trip with Zuko, but her timing of wanting to share her sob story was way off.
Nice to meet a fellow Christian! I agree.
One of the best video essays I have ever seen, and watching video essays has been a hobby for me for at least 10 years by now.
Every statement is spot on. A lot of aspects covered I have not heard in other video essays on Zuko that made me think "How could I/the author of a certain video essay miss that?". The amount of wisdom spit in this video is on a par with Iroh's. A very insightful analyzis!
That is incredibly kind of you! Glad you enjoyed the video!
Uncle Iroh refering to Zuko: "Who are you? And what do you want?". Those questions hit hard especially when your still trying to figure out life.
What I love about the confrontation of zuko and ozai is the parallel to the their Agni Kai. There zuko both refuses to fight but the latter it’s a portrayal of strength, while the first is called weakness.
Every time i watch a video that deep dives this show I just love it even more. it really is one of the best shows of its time. It's so deep yet easy to understand for the audience. Zukos story is especially amazing because a lot of his personal problems are relatable to a lot of us who had a bad upbringing and made a lot of bad decisions. A lot of us have been in some of the positions Zuko was in, trying to figure out what to do with yourself as things progress and you see through the fog that was placed around you. Many of us have felt lost like Zuko did, and had to find our ways through it. and them seeing him finally succeed.
This video better hit over 1,000,000 Views 💯 What a great story teller and edit! Great Job!
Thank you!
I really love that these types of opinions exist. I get so scared sometimes when i see these movies that completely miss the point and it feels like i am the minority in believing its garbage. This channel makes me regain sanity.
We're all about regaining sanity here.
Dude, great video! These honestly make me so happy. Please keep making them!
I absolutely will! So glad you enjoy them.
Proverbs 11:2 “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom”
Luke: [24] for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. ' And they began to make merry. [25] "Now his elder son was in the field; and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. [26] And he called one of the servants and asked what this meant.
Zuko to Iroh the Prodigal Son
Absolutely. I've always liked this parallel
As with anything its all balance, flaw tempered with growth.
There is always two hands on the scale, tip one too much and all tips over.
When you think about it, ozai is the most counterintuitive character ever you challenge a 13 child who is your own son to a agni kai and cherry on top banished all because he chose not to fight u and show said respect that apparently wasn’t shown before
I like the scene during the eclipse where zuko acknowledged this and it really shows how wrongfully treated he was and how it changed his life.
Great redemption arc for a character who basically never had a family at all
( besides his mother and uncle)
one of the most beautiful early setups is when we meet zuko in the first episode. when aang sends a bolt of radiant, zuko, who can see it (all the way to the battel ship he commends) give the order - to set a course towards the light. it is a foreshadowing of the rode he will take, the manner in which he will fight for it, as well as the ending goal. to reach the light.
Zuko's character arc is so strong I often forget that the picture on the left in the thumbnail is even him. Shaggy pretty boi Zuko feels so *right*
I relate to Zuko heavily. Any errors I make, being my family’s eldest son I’ll tend to push blame on my younger brothers. I feel too much pride in myself I don’t make the effort to take blame and overcome my flaws. I will watch this video every morning to remember how my pride can be negative. Thank you for this lesson to you, Zuko, and especially Uncle Iroh
"Your anger is a gift." - Zach de la Roche, Rage Against The Machine
Zukos story could help a lot of people who are in the constant of seeking validation.
Happiness, and pride comes from personal growth. Validation is temporary relief that isn't needed from others.
I know it's not really a canon theory. But I really think Lin Beifong from Korra seems a lot like Zuko. She has a similar character arc, & several similar elements. They both have a mother with a distinctive bloodline that disappeared on them. She has a rivalry with her sister. A scar on her face given to her by a family member in a disagreement. She even briefly loses her bending, as the result of what could be considered a change in her perspective. Both of them go from upholding institutional values to following their own moral code, & both ultimately have to face off against their own family to fix problems that started in the past. There are just a lot of parallels to their stories, & the fact her father was always kept obscure, really made me wonder if Zuko & Toph ended up having an adventure that wasn't appropriate for a PG kid's show. She is around the same age as Zuko's daughter Izumi, & she kinda looks like her too
Lins father is kanto
ye i too realised their simularities
In some ways perhaps, but they are different. Toph didn't disappear, but she was inattentive to both her children, and they both strove for her love, and emulated her in two extremes- Su being the extreme end of Toph's rebellious nature and Lin being the extreme end of her mother's more stern elements. Su scarring Lin was an honest accident, while Ozai scarring Zuko was intentional and meant to shame him. Lin does break the law at times but her values don't change- she lives to protect people and uphold/enforce Justice. I agree that it takes a fight between siblings to settle matters, and that could be a reference to Zuko/Azula, but the fight between Su and Lin allows them to settle matters, and ultimately what they are fighting about is their mother. Unlike Zuko and Azula, the fight allows them to reconcile.
Lin doesn't lose her powers because of a shift in perspective, she loses them because she stays true to herself and won't submit to Amon. I'll grant that Zuko and Lin have some similar personality traits such as a hot temper and a sour disposition, but Lin (perhaps because she is older and less conflicted) is quicker to make nice with the Avatar and even humble herself, as to have her bending restored she has to kneel before Korra.
How did he become emotionally mature? He had an amazing uncle and mentor.
but more importantly, he WANTED to change
12:14 for the past year ive been struggling with my own personal problems. This year i decided that instead of running away from my problems, i should face them and be a better version of my yesterday's self. When you said this, i instantly gave your video a like. I know im late to this video, but damn... It was so nice to hear someone else say something that ive been telling myself and others for the past few months. Good video, man
When one thinks of Zuko, the first word that comes to mind is 'My Honor'
I can’t help but point out that those are two words.
But I completely agree.
Dude, you made me cry. Gonna watch it all over
A lot of people don't realize this because it's so rarely accomplished, but a good redemption arc isn't a hard thing to do. It just requires the proper patience and planning, which is usually why they fall apart. Most redemption arcs either feel rushed or unearned and it's usually because they are- a character polled well with audiences so now they want to keep them around or an actor has a lot of buzz so they want to give them a bigger role or budgeting issues make you have to speed up the pace of the story or as a writer you want to redeem a character but didn't account for how much that would take given how much they'd done so you just skip to the redemption and ignore the rest- lots of reasons that usually boil down to a lack of planning or a lack of patience. Zuko had such an amazing redemption arc because they'd always planned to do so and as such he was never really evil like his father and sister. Angry, aggressive, antagonist, but not evil. He was someone who could become just like his father if left with all his anger and hurt or could become like his uncle and it was up to the story to tell us which.
Compare that to many other stories that go for the quick "redemption by last minute sacrifice/almost sacrifice" because it's easy and effective in the short term because you won't have to think about the character again. Or they'll retcon the story so that they can shift the blame for their worst deeds to someone else allowing them to be redeemed.
I think Zuko has am advantage because this is a kid's show. It's difficult to redeem a character that has been shown to kill innocent people and have the audience accept it. That is why many stories go the route of having the character sacrifice his own life for redemption.
But because avatar is a kids show, Zuko is never really shown killing anybody so we can accept his redemption.
@@yoloswaggins7121i think something to be noted is that, kid show or not, it never strays from the idea of murder and violence. the air nomad genocide and the explicit reveal of their remains comes to mind, as well as katara and sokka's mother kya getting murdered, zuko's mother ursa murdering fire lord azulon, zhao killing yue indirectly by killing the moon spirit, zhao, and later ozai himself, fully trying to murder zuko, and lu ten's death during the siege. none of these things are played with any sort of cartoonish leniency; it's all meant to clearly depict an intentional snuffing of life.
hell, azula's character introduction is her threatening to kill the captain of her ship by tossing him overboard and letting him get crushed to death against the rocks -- she also later "kills" aang. it's not that the show couldn't depict zuko killing someone, it's that that's not who his character was.
@@eliza1498 Yeah but we don't really see anyone being killed, and in particular the protaganists are simply not allowed to kill anyone because it's a kid show.
If it weren't a kids show, Zuko would have undeniably killed people in the raid on Kyoshi village for example.
And it's really difficult to redeem characters who have explicitly killed innocent people. The audience usually won't accept a happy ending for such characters which is why they usually achieve their redemption by sacrificing their lives, as was the case with Darth Vader.
But because Avatar is a kid's show, Zuko is never shown doing anything explicitly terrible. He doesn't really hurt anyone despite being a quasi member of an aggressive imperial faction with a bunch of troops under his command.
Though I will say that I am surprised that the show was allowed to show Gyatso's decomposed skeleton. That was pretty hardcore.
0:11 and Honor, don’t forget honor
And further thanks for putting anger, wisdom, prudence, persevering, and stubbornness into a clear light. It helped me, and I hope it'll help others.
Nope didn't helped me.
@@Acacius1992How so?
“Vice is self-serving, and virtues are Others-serving”
That’s gold.
Avatar, the last airbender was exquisitely written & your commentary is excellent too.
Thanks for revisiting this so deeply.
Always hoped, Zuko and Toph would be together in the end, they fit so well as formerly spoiled rich kids with different kinds of Parent problems.
I LOVE your avatar analysis vids
I'm glad you do! I appreciate the support.
Toph got to have a life changing experience with Iroh, and was able to pass positivity from Iroh to Zuko.
man I can't believe that I've spent around two hours here through your videos about the avatar, I guess I watched 5 if not 6 videos
suggestion leads to another+ reading some comments under each
I guess I've surpassed two hours so far
7:01 To be humble, do not think less of yourself but Think of Yourself Less
Beautiful
As much as this video is about analyzing character growth in fiction, everything talked about should be applied to everyone's life. These vices to virtues help with becoming a better person and leader in our real lives. Great video.
The tiny detail of useing the same font as avatar make it feel like it fits so perfectly
What comes to my mind when I hear Zuko is HONOR.
I liked that you covered pride as a vice. This is something I've noticed myself concerning those around me. I've gotten to where I say, "A drop of pride makes anyone a fool." It's good to be confident and comfortable with one's self but not prideful
Dude!!! You atree amazing. TLOTR ATLA, GOW and GOWR..., bravo. Your analysis is spot on!!! I've watched all of them. Subscribed!!!
dog it hurt me so much when zuko had his phase thing in ba sing sey before joining azula of all people
you don't put a "y" at the end of Ba Sing Se
@@Green24152 ok
I aspire to write character arcs like this!
I love this channel
im 3 mins into this vid n all i wanna say is that ur extremely wise bro. u summed up everything abt that climb up the mountain of virtue perfectly. as someone who has had there own experiences climbing up that mountain everything u said was 100% correct. u earned a sub bro
I’ve been watching all your avatar videos and I love them.
I love your video essays on Avatar, have gotten to read any of the Avatar comics yet? They do a great job of exploring the aftermath of the war and introduces some very interesting questions about protecting tradition versus encouraging progress. I'd love to hear your takes on them if you ever read any of them. The first comic you should read is the promise.
I have not. I will have to check those out (when I get time lol).
To be humble do not think less of yourself but think of yourself less.
Quotable quote.
Seeing Zuko relapse and betray Iroh is the best moment in the show imo. Of course, itd be nothing without the buildup or the redemption thereafter, but as someone who's recovering in the same way Zuko was, seeing him relapse, and then get better and make up for it has been encouraging for me. That's why he's my favourite character
It was good to hear about true humility once more. And to bring it up with King Aragorn and Firelord Zuko, that's some 2 contrasting characters to bring up humility huh?
Humility is so important. Almost every truly good character shows incredible humility.
When I think of Zuko, the first thing I think of is 'Honor', just the same as the first thing I think of when I think of Kaladin. Is it strange that the people who see a lack of honor are also the people with it?
Imagine me being a young adolescent and unknowingly watching one of the best character arcs in any show ever
"Only by pride cometh contention, but with the well advised is wisdom"
Zuko’s redemption arc is the goat for sure, but people honestly overlook Aangs redemption arc as well with him running away from being the avatar to being proud to be the avatar
Born into a pack
There's no choice but take orders to attack
Locked up in chains, I get fed
But the hunger still remains
Not content to live this way
Being led by the blind
Got to plan my dispersal
Time to leave them all behind
- MGR: I’m My Own Master Now
...holy shit, why does that actually work?!
I think another part of Zuko and Katara's journey is:
Zuko understands revenge, how empty it is. He helped Katara on her quest knowing that when given the chance, she would realize the truth.
Revenge is lowering yourself to level of one you hate,that is why it is empty. And she needed the support and aid to learn that lesson. Being preached to wouldn't help her at all.
And Zuko understood that all to well. Because he learned it from his true father, Iroh.
I really enjoy your videos, the analyses are really good! I also feel like I'm learning a lot from them, so thanks! I have a bit of feedback on the editing to possibly make the videos even more impactful: music, from the show or otherwise, can do a great deal in giving an already good video even more impactful. Perhaps consider adding some Avatar score in the background. Looking forward to the next upload!
I've noticed in your videos about ATLA (this one is the third I've watched) that whenever you discuss a character's vice and/or struggles - or their virtues - you consistently point out that *the problem is rooted in themselves.* No matter their background and circumstances, there is always something _inside_ the character in question that needs to be identified and confronted in order for them to grow and mature, both as an individual and as part of a group/society. It was a very welcome surprise to come across a creator that does not sugarcoat the constant daily battle that is life for a human being who wants to become a better version of themself.
When it comes to this particular video, I wanted to share some of my own thoughts about the character in question. *And before I forget to mention it again, the video was really, really good!*
I think what makes Zuko so appealing, is that his development wasn't built on revenge and self-satisfaction. Neither was it smooth sailing as soon as he admitted his shortcomings and decided to repent. Rather, he emerged as a compassionate, patient and insightful young man towards the end of Book 3 beacuse he started to sacrifice the parts of himself that he identified as harmful or useless. Lo and behold, as he seized this mindset and persevered in it, his vices were gradually overcome and replaced by virtues. He worked hard to remain true to his conviction when faced by adversaries, but perhaps even harder when he had to square off against old tendencies and the ghosts of his past. Instead of demanding immediate acceptance and forgiveness after apologising, he acknowledged the weight of his previous wrongdoings and put effort into proving his change of heart through action. I think anyone who has made the choice of owning up to their mistakes/wrongdoings can relate to Zuko's journey as a person to a lesser or greater degree.
One disappointment that I had in "The Southern Raiders" is how Zuko kept framing in terms of good vs. evil, but was clearly showing disdain for what he called "good" in that episode. My problem stems from the fact that, in episodes prior to that, he kept insisting that he was on the side of good; yet, for this one episode, seemed to reject that.
You could argue that it was just one more way in which Zuko's journey was still facing setbacks. However, I have a better idea how it could have been handled. In Justice League Unlimited, there was an episode in which Huntress tried to murder the gangster who killed her parents. This put her at odds with the rest of the Justice League, and even got her kicked out of the team. The Question was the only JL member who supported her and helped her. But he had his reasons: it was to put her in the position where he could ask the question she most desperately needed to ask of herself: "Is this what you really want?" By siding with her, and supporting her need for closure, the Question earned her trust, but more importantly, showed that, of all the members of the JL, he was the one who most understood her need. She stopped the gangster, but spared his life.
I feel that Zuko was doing the same thing there. He saw Katara's need to confront the man who murdered her mother, and he knew that she would never be able to move forward until she did. What if he was being the Question? What if he was simply allowing her to confront her need in herself, but also asking her, "Is this what you really want?"
I don't think Zuko was rejecting good, not really anyway (and they should have refrained from having him state it in those terms), but rather rejecting the black-and-white morality that Aang was trying to impose onto Katara. But the ending shows Zuko really is the Question: "How do you plan to stop my father?" Aang's black-and-white morality is going to hinder him from stopping Ozai, and Zuko needs Aang to realize that.
It's amazing how deep kids' shows can be sometimes. It's a shame that modern adult entertainment can't accomplish that anymore.
i really like your interpretation -- truthfully, i've never read too much into this episode beyond, as you said, zuko intentionally challenging the black and white morality of "killing is bad, even if it's a genocidal dictator intent on world domination". i think something interesting that may support your comparison is the parallel to zuko's confrontation with the man who made _his_ mother disappear.
although zuko had the opportunity to kill ozai during the eclipse, something ozai even acknowledges, zuko rejects the idea because "it's not [his] destiny". even after he finds out that ozai was behind his mother's disappearance, he reinforces his decision by intentionally throwing his aim when redirecting ozai's lightning back at him -- something we know would be fatal, as ozai did not know how to redirect lightning.
zuko's presence in the southern raiders episode means something because not only has he also lost his mother, he has been in the _exact same situation_ of having the opportunity to kill the man responsible in an act of vengeance. interestingly, katara, just like zuko, makes the decision to spare yon rha despite being actively encouraged to carry it out - like ozai did to zuko, and zuko did to her. in this way, zuko does directly serve as the question, challenging her to think about how she intends to handle the struggle of killing or not killing.
one last thing to support your interpretation is that zuko doesn't deride her for being "weak" the way you would expect someone who "hates" "good" to have done - he doesn't even seem surprised by her decision when standing in the background during her speech to yon rha. in fact, the only time he genuinely seems surprised is when he thinks katara _will_ kill him -- he only relaxes back to a neutral stance when she "drops her weapon" , as it were.
katara initially wonders if it makes her weak, but ultimately comes to the conclusion that she doesn't need to have enacted revenge to move on, and that refusal to kill him doesn't mean forgiveness. zuko seems to have come to the same realization about ozai, finding peace in the aftermath of the war even if his father still lives, and understanding that he does not need to forgive him for anything he's done.
even though the end technically goes with aang's decision in not killing ozai, they still reject the idea of it being black-and-white, as shown by katara refuting aang's claims that she has "forgiven" yon rha. i think this episode served as a good middle ground -- with the separation of mercy and forgiveness established, i think they could really have gone either way with making aang kill or not kill ozai while still not contradicting the fact that, at the time, killing ozai really did seem to be the only path forward.
as a bonus, i think this may also serve as commentary on zuko's own redemption arc: zuko's decision to work towards redemption is not taken at face value, it's something he has to work for. even then, it's not portrayed as a given that katara, or any of the others, must forgive him for what he has done. katara decides to forgive him as a direct result of this episode and i think that symbolizes that, whether it was the intention of the writers or not, katara did truly feel that zuko fully understood the situation she was in and supported her decisions, just as the comparison you made to the huntress and the question.
Your discussion of Perseverance vs. Stubbornness reminded me of the demotivational poster: Perseverance - The courage to avoid the obvious wisdom of turning back.
the favorite character arc ever🧡I return again and again to his story through years in my own crisis periods💔 very helpful💔
I have a lot of disagreements with this video. Before I go into this I wanna state that I am not attacking or insulting the RUclipsr who made this video, he just says a lot of things I think are wrong.
Ok so first right at the beginning of the video he said emotional maturity doesn't come to mind in association with zuko, I disagree with this because at the end of his story he is extremely emotionally mature and as his arc is what he is known for, the end product of his character development is what he is known for, this is a small thing but I personally disagree with it nonetheless.
7:25 Master Samwise says "This Agni kai is a beautiful demonstration of how the two have swapped places" - now this is not actually wrong but he then goes on to elaborate; at 7:50 he says "Azula has become the worst of zuko, blinded by rage, grasping at a power that leaves her unsatisfied" In my opinion. he misses the point here. Zuko was never power hungry - and Azula was always power-hungry. For example, S2E7 This is purposefully shown with how the two react to Lu Ten's death. Zuko is upset and empathetic, while Azula is happy her cousin has died as it could advance her insignificant branch of the royal family and pave her father's way to the throne aka power. She also ensures her power in S3E1 by lying to ozai that zuko killed the avatar so that when the avatar is discovered as alive so that zuko falls from grace as a result. Zuko on the other and in S1E20 tries to save his nemesis Zhao out of purely selfless and honorable purposes even though it would very likely hurt him in the long run and hinder potential power. Zuko was never someone who grasped at power.
10:45 Master Samwise praises zuko for not speaking out in the war meeting that takes place S3E9 (though shown properly S3E18) , at 10:45 saying "Zuko does not immediately fly off the handle and protest the genocidal proposal, instead, he allows that anger drive him to make the prudent upright choice to desert the fire nation at the opportune moment". This is a completely different motivation than what zuko himself cites as the reason for not speaking out, and this instance is not the example of zuko being less impulsive that Master Samwise is framing it as. In S3E18, Zuko talks about this exact moment when he was in that war meeting, he says "I wanted to speak out against this horrifying plan, but i'm ashamed to say I didn't. My whole life, I've struggled to gain my father's love and acceptance. But once I had it, I'd lost myself getting there". Whether not speaking out and waiting was the wise, prudent choice or not (it probably was), that wasn't zuko's motivation behind keeping quiet. He even plays a brief clip of Zuko expressing this very regret muted over Master Samwise's narration quoted above.
11:32 in reference to Zuko helping katara kill her mother's killer (and also provoking aang into doing more training, though this one isn't relevant to my critique outside that he was not armed with the information that would have made this worth taking into consideration - in which the fault belongs to Aang and the others), Master Samwise says zuko "doesn't put a lot of time into thinking about the issue at hand" This is false. In this episode (S3E16). Zuko waits for hours and hours - all through the night outside katara's tent awake before proposing to her that he can help her avenge her mother's death. Therefore, it is completely incorrect to say that he didn't put time into thinking about it, he almost certainly put very much time into thinking about this.
12:40 Master Samwise says "Zuko stubbornly drags his uncle and crew across the known world looking for the avatar regardless of their own desires or even wellbeing". This is not really true. S1E8, he ignores a sighting of the avatar to go rescue Iroh. S1E9, he allows his crew to deviate from the Avatar's trail simply so Iroh can buy a new lotus tile, S1E12 makes a point of refuting this. When zuko is told of a storm and the safety risks that it may entail should they continue sailing zuko exclaims "The safety of the crew doesn't matter". However, later in this episode, when the storm does actually result in danger, Zuko is the one there to rescue his crewmate. He then demands the ship sail to safety instead of pursuit at the avatar (even after seeing Appa flying above, EVEN when the crewmates advocate for pursuit over safety). He also then apologises to Iroh. Zuko came to both these decisions on his own and out of his own conscience - the message and consensus of the episode is that zuko does care and it is purposefully displayed and shown.
17:32 Master Samwise says that by the last quarter of S3E14, Zuko "is no longer only thinking of himself and his desires, he is now able to use his natural bravery in the service of others". In my opinion this again fails to understand the base and point of his character and where his flaws derive from. Zuko was not selfish and incapable of serving others. He is the way he is in the beginning of the series because of his unwavering service to his father, as well as his selfless protests for the 41st division. This unwavering devotion, service and eagerness to please takes him to the extent where in S2E20, he ignores the obvious sufferings that the Earth Kingdom people endure as a result of Ozai and the fire nation's ruthless colonisation in order to work for his father. If zuko's problem was that he were *only* selfish and self serving, he wouldn't have been so obstinate to Iroh in S2E1 that Ozai loves him and therefore attempting to justify the severe abuse that Zuko suffered at his hands. It wasn't selfishness that led him on a relentless pursuit of aang, it was extreme and toxic selflessness to one person. This is not to say that zuko doesn't have plenty moments of selfishness - because he does, even as a result in the pursuit of Aang, but since this pursuit of aang comes from selfless routes, it is not fundamental or strong enough (in my opinion) to say that it is a core flaw that has been specifically flipped/rectified by the end of the show. Throughout the show, it is shown that zuko is often capable of selflessness in many instances both before , during and after his "redemption arc". Examples include S1E3 when he decides not to burn Zhao, (see the examples I used in the previous point - S1 E 8, 9 & 12), S1E20, he offers to save Zhao's life purely out of honour, morality and selflessness. It is false to say he was always "only" thinking of himself and his own desires.
(second half of this in the reply section - RUclips won't let me comment something so long)
18:29 Master Samwise states "Zuko has spent 2 and a half books pushing his own desires". He says this over a muted clip from S2E17 where Iroh explicitly states that Zuko has been neglecting his own desires in pursuit of his destiny and what others want from him. To quote, iroh pleads "I'm begging you Prince Zuko, It's time for you to look inwards and start asking yourself the big questions; who are you and what do you want?". This is so on the nose that I can't help but believe Master Samwise placed this clip here intentionally, as he interprets that what Iroh was saying wasn't in reference to Zuko's desires and rather something else, but I think the point that Iroh was very much making, is that Zuko has not spent 2 and a half books pushing his own desires - a precise contradiction of the voice over. If Master Samwise didn't interpret it in some other way, then perhaps he disagrees with Iroh, but if that's the case, he might want to elaborate and explain why he disagrees with Iroh - and subsequently Zuko; as this results in Zuko freeing Appa and throwing away his blue spirit mask - implying that Iroh got through to him and that he agrees with what Iroh says regarding Zuko's "desires".
22:17 Master Samwise says "How do we grow in virtue? We learn to live not for ourselves, but for those who need us, those whom we love, that is Zuko's character arc in a nutshell", I will refrain on expressing why I believe this emphasis on zuko's selfishness is misguided and overblown since I've explained that previously. I don't think it's all that prevalent. He is selfish in multiple instances of course, since he is human - but I don't think so in a compulsive and exclusive way that suggests a central character flaw to overcome, he is far too often also very selfless, and even from early on in the story for that to be what his arc is centred around in my opinion. I would even go as far to invoke Plato's Golden Mean with selflessness in relation to zuko. He is selfless for others (his father) to the point of wilful ignorance to the evil he is complicit in (though that complacence is also in part due to his punishment for fighting against that evil previously), and he needs to learn to balance that selflessness in so that he actually does put himself first where he needs and allows himself to be happy (which is what brings on a lot of his change in the earth kingdom post iroh's speech in S2E17), as well as displeasing and disavowing the person he has been so devoted to, and brought so much pain to himself and sacrificed so much of himself in order to try and please.
But either way, I really disagree that selfishness (although at times present eg stealing Song's ostrich horse in S1E2) is what zuko's arc is built around - or his arc "in a nutshell" at all. I think that the broader meaning of his arc derives from duality and understanding right and wrong (something zuko himself expresses is why he has so much inner turmoil in S3E5 "I'm angry at myself (...) because I'm confused, because I'm not sure I know the difference between right and wrong anymore") . His redemption arc does not start in the first episode, or at any other point in the series, His redemption arc begins in his early years of life, when his father initially grew to disdain him. He's spent the vast majority of his life on his knees (very literally on multiple occasions), trying to "redeem" himself to one person or another. First to Ozai, especially from the Agni kai onwards, trying to atone to his father for his past "misdeeds". Then when he realises that he was right to fight for good ie speaking out at the war meeting(the very thing that he was trying to "redeem" himself from ), he now has to redeem himself to the people he hurt in his previous misguided "path to redemption". Because his need to atone to the "good guys" derives from him being in a position where he was put in due to severe punishment for trying to be good, it's a frustrating character arc and one that is incredibly painful to watch - especially given how un-linear it is (something Master Samwise mentions often that I completely agree with).
All the love to this creator, just because I disagree with a lot, doesn't mean I don't respect him making this video, a lot of his other videos are excellent and I agree with much.
So on your first point, yes that clip was very much intentional. Zuko struggles with figuring out what he wants, and in that moment does choose something greater than his own selfish desires. But then he goes and rejects that choice a few episodes later when the chance to "redeem" himself completely is presented. Like I say, character arcs are bumpy.
I think we may be defining selfishness/selflessness differently. I would not say that Zuko is selfless for his father, but rather that his serving Ozai is part of how he lives for himself. Take his sister, for example. Azula only serves her father because it is in her own self interest. Does Zuko harbor more warmth for Ozai than Azula does? Maybe. Zuko does seem to genuinely want his father to love him.
I think you make a good point that Zuko's arc is defined more by learning right and wrong. My scope was perhaps too small or I should have phrased it differently. Zuko starts out believing that what is good for him is good for the Fire Nation is good for the world. He ends up with a much broader and whole understanding of what is truly right, due to his travels and experiences, and of course the wisdom of his uncle. In doing so, he learns to look outward instead of inward.
As a general rule, we humans fall into vice when we look out only for ourselves and can only find goodness when we are truly interested in the wellbeing of others, and that's what I see so poignantly in Zuko's story.
Anyhow, thank you for all your thoughts and well-laid-out criticism. I can't tell you how much I appreciate someone honestly and fairly critiquing my work. Much love.
@@master_samwise Hey I really appreciate your measured response and think you make some interesting points. I think you're right that we might define selflessness differently. Though I think an aspect of having such a wide definition of selfishness is that it might get to the point where it is applicable to everyone, and falls into the philosophy of psychological egoism. For example, this reasoning could argue that William Wilberforce's devoted 50 year campaign for the abolition of slavery could derive from his strong evangelical christian convictions and his will to go to heaven and not damned to hell. So from that perspective, perhaps it can be argued zuko is "selfish" - if I am interpreting your response correctly.
If you subscribe to psychological egoism, then I would wish to know why zuko is particularly selfish or self serving (where it is expressed so much in the video) in your opinion. If you do not subscribe to psychological egoism, I'd be interested to know what your line would be, as eventually the case could be made that the other members of team avatar are also selfish for their actions, since they also think what's good for them is good for their respective nations is good for the world - only they were on the right side of history. Furthermore, whatever the answer may be to that, Zuko puts this mission to capture the avatar in jeopardy on several occasions (as which I have listed previously in the first of my two initial comments - as zukos desires was technically not my first point, but the first point of the second part of my 2-part comment, since RUclips had character limits for individual comments) for selfless reasons, id even go to say that whenever he is confronted with either saving someone in his life, or pursuing an opportunity to chase the avatar, he more often than not chooses the former (granted to your case, the crossroads of destiny - being a more absolute prospect, and not merely an opportunity because as we are in strong agreement, his arc and decisions are not linear).
I also would personally argue that zuko's love for Ozai was more genuine than azula's. I say this because Azula firstly does not display any love for any family members and revels in their death and suffering while zuko displays the opposite. Azula is also willing to deceive Ozai to his detriment and azula's gain (lying about the avatar being dead - S3E1) Zuko on the other hand is so loyal and loving to Ozai that even when ordered to fight his father he cannot bring himself to. Another very interesting thing to consider is whenever they deviate from Ozai's interests, the reasons in which they do this. For example in Zuko's stead, Zuko never refrains from capturing the avatar for selfish reasons, or even malicious reasons. Whereas In an audio commentary for S2E8, When Azula is caught between Aang and Zuko and strikes Zuko. Brian on the commentary clarifies that between landing a hit on Aang - thus benefitting Ozai's needs and attacking zuko, Azula chooses attacking zuko.
Again I greatly appreciate your response and your willingness to hear differing opinions as I enjoy listening to yours, productive and friendly disagreement is hard to come by these days.
@@wherermytacos5903 I think ( and Master Samwise can probably give a better explanation of his own opinion here) that early Zuko is selfish in a very different way than characters like Ozai and Azula. Ozai and Azula continually think of only themselves. They are motivated almost solely by their own interests and have no care for others. Zuko is selfish in a way much like most of us. I think many people, myself included, do struggle with moments selfishness and have moments of selflessness. Zuko, as stated beautifully in the video, is drive by his sense of shame. As we know from Iroh, pride is not the opposite of shame but its source. Being prideful inherently involves thinking of oneself before others. I would propose that Zuko's early character has moments of selfishness ( "the safety of the crew doesn't matter." running the blockade in the spirit world part 2, which certainly puts his crew at risk. stealing the animal from the earth kingdom family.) and moments of selflessness that you expertly pointed out in your comments. So much of Zuko's character is a struggle between these two sides. His dark and his light. Slowly he grows in virtue and becomes less and less selfish. So its overall not that Zuko is a completely selfish horrible person like Ozai or Azula. He has a good heart and does choose to help others to his own potential detriment early on. He does however often act in a misguided and sometimes selfish manner.
The rest of the Gaang absolutely have moments of selfishness throughout the show (Aang hiding Hakoda's note. Katara stealing the waterbending scroll and endangering the others when she practices secretly at night. Toph refusing to help the others with tasks in The Chase. Ect). They are farther along the path of virtue towards consistent unselfishness because they have the advantage of not having Ozai as a father.
Zuko is an extremely relatable character because he struggles with these vices and only slowly grows. Most people have selfish motivations or reactions at times. We all need to grow in virtue. His arc ( as you both stated well) is not linear. It is also not an arc from pure evil to pure good. From pure selfishness to pure selflessness. Zuko is not entirely defined by selfishness. It is a vice with which he fights and grows out of over time. I think that while Zuko has those moments even in Book 1 where he chooses to help others rather than himself, he is noticeably much more selfless by the end of the show. He has struggled with his inner demons and grown from vice into virtue.
I believe this is what MasterSamwise is talking about when he states that Zuko has to become less selfish in his character growth. I hope that made some sense and was not too repetitive. I have loved reading this discussion.
I just realized the white lotus are the most patient people in the series
Seeing what happened with Zuko made me cry too. I just didn't get it at first and I just rooted for him to figure it all out. Bump your father! Bump your sour sister! Listen to your heart and find what YOU want in YOUR life!
Avatar was such a beautiful anime
bruh if it was an anime every fight scene would be accompanied by a 20 minute explanation and become boring as fuck
It was animated in korea and america. Japan's anime studios refused to animate this, they don't deserve credit lol.
It's not an anime
@@iluvgermanshepherds1794seinen anime?
Zuko didn't admit he couldn't beat azula. Iroh wasnt sure if he could beat ozai. When fighting azula came up at the white lotus/team avatar meeting zuko said "i can take her." It wasnt until after iroh said he couldnt do it alone did he offer for katara to join him
This shows how there is always something new to say about Zuko's character.
Oh please we all know the first word that comes to mind when someone mentions Zuko is sifuhotman.
Also really helped they introduced azula in season 2 so we had a worse villian that hurt zuko and team avatar. Gives us a reason to believe in his redemption and accept it universally
Just the words you have chose
and everything you said
So wisdomous
it is applicable in real life also
I feel I'm learning about virtue
with this videos
You must be an amazing intellectual deep person
❤️
4:00 while a portion of Zuko’s rage and anger is his own fault, you are seriously off base here. His anger from his abuse is not his fault. Zuko was put in an impossible situation and much of his turmoil is his nation’s and father’s fault.
Exactly! There's a bible verse that tells fathers not to engage their children, to treat them right. Poor zuko. Why does he remind me so much of Spock from Star Trek? Bad father who shows no love and expects the impossible. Only his mother loved him. Both come from basically royalty , had too much pride, hated themselves, and didn't want to ask for help, etc. I love Zuko and Spock. Their arcs are awesome.
Curiously both characters are blamed by fans for things their fathers put into them 🤔
And therin lies the point. While there's a rationale behind the anger(caused by his father's bad treatment) ultimately the feeling is his, his to feel, his to fester and let grow and his to let go.
Zuko was in three Agni Kai's with three different people - Ozai, Zhao and Azula. They all broke/bent the rules somehow so he was more honorable than the three of them.
You make me wanna watch all your uploads like a series marathon! ❤ love your vids man
I appreciate you!
Love your videos keep it up!
I have watched ALTA around 30 times through to the end, but damn it, this video essay is making me crave another viewing