TIMING CHAINS vs. BELTS - Differences, Evolution, History and more
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- Опубликовано: 26 ноя 2024
- What is up engine heads, today we will be taking a detailed look at timing belts and timing chains. We will compare one with the other and dive deep into the benefits and drawbacks of both of these critical engine components all while presenting objective facts on both of these.
So what does a timing belt or a timing chain actually do? Well the key word here is "timing" and timing in this case refers to the relationship between your pistons and your camshafts and valves. For an engine to run properly this relationship must be constant and maintained at all times.
Chains are more resistant to wear because of course metal resists wear better than rubber. But there's a catch. Metal resists wear well only when it's lubricated and this brings us to our first big difference between timing chains and belts. Belts run dry but chains are splash lubricated by the oil in your engine. This means that chains must be sealed away from the environment to prevent oil leaks. The easiest way to tell if your engine has a belt or chain is to look at the engine. If it has plastic covers on the front, it's likely running a timing belt, if it has a sealed metal cover than it's likely running a chain.
Because they are more durable timing chains have much longer service intervals than belts, some chains don't even have service intervals. They last the life of the engine. Even if you don't use the engine at all, a belt should be replaced after 6-10 years, depending on the engine. This is because rubber naturally deteriorates and degrades with time. Timing belts are sensitive to oil and coolant spills, which can significantly shorten their life. High temperatures also contribute to increased rubber wear. A typical modern timing belt needs to be replaced every 60.000 - 100.000 miles. When timing chains do have service intervals, they are need to be replaced every 80.000 - 120.000 miles.
While timing belts are generally the same and don't differ much in terms of their design, timing chains come in two main different types - the silent chain and the roller chain. Silent chains minimize the amount of noise created by chain and sprocket assembly.
Silent chains are very common in engines and are loved by manufacturers because they are simple and cheap to manufacture. They are constructed from multiple links connected together by pins. The profile of the links fits the profile of the teeth of the sprocket and voila the chain turns the sprockets.
On the other hand roller chains incorporate rollers instead of links. The sprocket teeth fits in between the rollers and the rollers roll on the teeth as the chain rotates the sprocket. This both reduces friction and helps spread loads more evenly which also reduces localized wear. Roller chains can be of a dual or single type and as you're probably guessing dual rollers are more durable but due the increased surface area they also create more friction.
The drawback of roller chains is that they are noisier when compared to silent chains and that they are also more sensitive to debris and contaminants in engine oil.
The first ever engine with a rubber toothed belt was racing car built by Bill Devin in the early 50s. It was a Frankenstein engine that used two Norton Manx cylinders on a Panhard crankcase and an overhead cam layout. The first ever mass produced car to feature a timing belt engine was the West German 1962 Glas 1004. In 1966 Fiat also introduced the first twin cam engine driven by a rubber toothed belt and in the same year the United States got their first belt driven engine in the form of Pontiac's overhead straight six engine.
So does this mean that belts are the better choice and that you should choose and engine with a belt instead? No, it simply means that the demands put on today's engines have equalized belt and chain statistics and that some of the good reputation chains had doesn't apply anymore. The reality is that both engine drive systems are equally good provided you maintain your engine and replace components with quality ones when needed.
What's more important than belt or chain is maintenance as well as research. Before buying a car with a certain engine, make sure to do your research well and get acquainted with the engine's weak spots so you know what too look out for inspecting the vehicle and can accurately predict realistic maintenance cost that best suit your budget, needs and preferences.
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We've never had an engine where the sprocket is directly connected to the crankshaft via a gear?
@@sefutho GM produced 6 cylinders late 40's ( maybe earlier ) compressed fibre cam gear , used in Australian Holden engines until end of Chev based , " Grey , Red , Blue , Black " engines .
@@robertmorris6529 OK thanks you so much Sir
You should talk about one of the longest engine belt in ES9A engine 😂
Timing ropes are OP
We had an early Acura that had a belt snap long before the 60k change interval. It was insane how interested Acura/Honda was on the root cause analysis. The engine was totaled and was sent back to Japan. And the incident went way high up in Acura, we heard - like VP level. They knew who worked on the line, what day, etc. It was impressive. Anyway, got a new engine out of it. Been a chain fan ever since.
Wow!
The age of the belt is just as important as the mileage
Well what happened to the guy? Did they fire him?
It took probably a few thousands of broken engines and many disproven lies for VW to acknowledge there's an issue with timing chains in EA888 before they finally came up with fixed tensioner. Fun times.
Chain's last way longer period
A belt will last the whole engine life. The engine life simply ends, when the belt fails 😜
Lol!
All 4g63 engine owners are quick reminded or informed of this failure
Pfffttt.... Toyota laughs at this....
Not on any Toyota
When chain loose in engine can make meet piston with valves. the long timing chain from the crankshaft to the camshaft in the cylinder head stretches much more easily. by adding to the wear of the slides and sprockets, such a chain can jump on and destroy the engine. manufacturers give large distances between chain replacements, but the tensions are defective chains loosen earlier
I'm an IT engineer but know nothing about cars. I recently bought a car to work on and your engineering take on automotive tech makes me understand the engine and I diagnosed every problem the car had and even improved some points. Thank you.
If you can assemble and fix computers you'll be able to fix cars if you so choose. Lot of overlap and skillset similiarites between the two.
@@gravemind6536 actually IT engenere is usually a software engere. But you still have the point
@@gravemind6536 assembling computers involves no more than a screwdriver. Going from that to working on a car is like saying you can be a chef because you can cook macaroni and cheese. Sure, after building a computer you will probably be able to change a taillight, but you're not gonna be able to rebuild an engine any time soon.
@@JaredConnell That's not what they're talking about. Any one can turn a wrench. The overlap being referred to is understanding systems. If you can understand the underlying system that enables a computer to run, you can understand an engine. That's the hard part.
Pcmasterrace when they find out their car is pre-built
I used to work on a lot of VW TDIs. All of them were timing belts. I spoke with an engineer about why they went with belts, and the reply was that with 19:1 compression there's no room for error and chains can stretch, especially over a long time. The belt doesn't stretch nearly as much, and by following the VW prescribed timing belt change procedure you effectively re-zero the timing. The correct procedure has you lock the cam at TDC; loosen the bolts on the injector pump to lock it at TDC; then move the crank to TDC and lock it. That brought the engine back to factory fresh timing, and should be done every 100k miles (it was originally 60k miles, then moved to 80k, and finally 100k as the belts improved).
Mechanics who were not familiar with this engine would do a "mark and pray" timing belt change where they'd mark positions of the belt on the cam, crank, and injector pump; then put corresponding marks on the old belt, then transfer the marks to the new belt; then they'd put the new belt on exactly like the old one came off. Over time you'd end up with engine damage if you did a couple of these in a row because of timing drift related to belt stretch that was never corrected.
Comment full of Wisdom. Thank you
How the fuck can a chain stretch more than a belt, assuming roughly equal cost and production quality?
Over 400k or more miles the stretch of a chain would cause damage in a 19:1 engine. VW TDIs with that mileage are still quite common on the roads. Yes, they've had 4+ timing belt changes, but each one brought timing of the cam, crank, and injection pump back to "zero". Plus, the cost to replace a chain would be far more than the 4 timing belt changes.
@@javabean215 it just means that 4x+ timing belts will stretch less than one or two timing chains along the way. Belts are also cheaper to produce and more expensive to maintain, so it's just a good example of transferring costs to the end buyer. No offense.
Sorry m8, i belive 4 change of belt would be bigger cost than 1 change.of chain in same amount of kilometers.
Great breakdown of the subject. It all does come down to the application. There are a couple other considerations which make belts, in general, more preferential to me from a maintenance perspective:
1. While chains are made of metal and theoretically will wear better, they often depend on chain guides or other integral parts which are made of plastic.
2. Replacing a belt is a planned maintenance piece, replacing a "lifetime" chain that's failed is often an engine-out procedure.
3. Belt replacement is a great time to replace belt tensioners and the water pump prophylactically ahead of when they would become a problem.
None of this would steer me away from a reliable chain-timed engine, but it does factor in to the practical livability of the two timing systems.
In my experience as a mechanic they are both just as hard.
Gear driven cams are the most reliable though.
I completely agree but im sure nobody is gonna be able to survive the noise the gears make against each other
Longevity and reliability are not the same thing. A timing belt or a chain motor is going to last just as long as gear driven motor assuming you actually do the maintenance.
@@somerandoonline5852 My motorcycle has straight cut gears driving the cams and the sound they make is no problem at all. I quite like it, it gives the engine more character and is maintenance free.
@@otm646 But the maintenance can sometimes be a problem, for instance a 12 year old Audi S5 4.2 v8 timing chain replacement will cost nearly as much money as the whole car is worth, so economically unworthwhile.
@@somerandoonline5852 yeah only people who like the cranky sounds of it would so I agree with ya
I just watched a 20 minute video about timing chains/belts and was on the edge of my seat the whole time! Great job!
me too, you are making videos with some heavy information really effortless to watch. Didn't expect this when i logged in to youtube today :)
Me too...but on the edge of a toilet at work
Someone in the comments called it, this gentlemans hair style keeps getting better. But on a serious note, another insightful and informative video Sir. Fast becoming a legend man.
Totally agree with you, in one of my own videos I also mentioned that belts and chains are equal, best to research the particular engine you are about to buy.
Hello Richard!
Great video. Having been a professional tech for 22 years I've replaced a lot of timing belts- and a lot of timing chains. It always frustrated me when most people thought chains were always without exception, better. As you said, not always the case. Today the GM High Feature V6 has a problem with chain lubrication and is known for having timing chain problems. I've seen every kind of chain wear out due to poor lubrication, often too infrequent oil changes but none the less, a belt is immune to this. I could go on with many examples but for me I favor a belt that's not difficult to replace, and be sure to conduct this regular maintenance to stay on top of the game. And I always wondered why belts went from a typical change interval of 60K miles to 120K, you answered it! By the way in the 1950s Chevrolet inline 6 motors didn't have either, but a gear to gear design.
Gears is best. Chevy 6s stayed gear to gear all the way up to the mid 80s, when the Chevy Stovebolt was retired in favor of a 262 V6 that was a small block V8 with the two front cylinders lopped off.
@@michaelbenardo5695 Gears can only be used when the cam is very close to the crank, not any overhead cam design. This may be reliable but always means RPMs are limited or valve float occurs, and internal engine power consumption remains high.
@@blackbirdpie217 I wasn't talking about OHC engines. I care more about torque than screaming RPM. And yes you can use gears on OHC engines. You need a shaft between the crank and cam gears, with those gears being ring gears, like that of a differential ring gear. The Crosley, a little tin can if there every was one, had such an arrangement.
@@blackbirdpie217 "Gears can only be used when the cam is very close to the crank, not any overhead cam design" Sure they can, they're just complicated and expensive, no? 🙂 E.g., Formula One or most purpose designed DOHC racing engines tend to be gear driven, and there are a few DOHC gear-driven road engines: the 'humble' Audi V10 TDI engine as well as where you'd expect in exotic road cars like the Ferrari Enzo or exotic bikes like the Ducati Demosedici.
@@TassieLorenzo I do agree, the cam right above the crank is what allows a gear to be used without any belted link like a chain or T-belt but overhead cam is of course distant from the crankshaft. I have envisioned some kind of bevel gear and vertical shaft setup like as is used in linking the lower and upper mechanisms of a sewing machine, but this would need to be quite robust, and yet may be unreliable. Now they're testing electronic valves instead of using cams altogether. Some think there's no point now that electric is becoming the new technology, but it's not dominating yet so you never know what new next thing might surprise us.
Never knew that there were two different kinds of timing chains. Great work.
I've known about both types of timing chains for a very long time. The "Morse" type chain isn't used as much these days, in favour of the roller chains.
There are actually more than 2.
@@christophermarshall5765 He did not even mention Morse, he is just calling all the various 'silent' chains as the same.
@@chippyjohn1 the flat chains in car engines are properly called Morse chains after the designer of them.
@@chippyjohn1 the flat chains in car engines are properly called Morse chains after the designer of them.
Complete underrated channel compared to big channels on youtube.
1. The content is excellent and informative.
2. His english is really clear and easy to understand. That is a advance for foreigner english speakers because they do not have to learn first to speak clear like a narrator without dialect or peculiarities.
Entertaining and informative as always, one of the most watchable auto channels out there 👍
Another excellent video! I love the fact that I already know a decent amount about these topics, but I *still* always learn new things from your videos, and they are always enjoyable / entertaining! You have a gift, sir!
Just found your channel tonight. Watched Boost School up to date and iron block vs aluminium plus more. Absolutely hooked! Great presentation and extremely clear explanations of any topic you cover! Love it!
Imagine needing to time an engine. *laughs in rotary* *laughter slowly turning into sobbing*
*laughs in 2 stroke and cries while extincting*
Yeah, the sobbing makes sense. Tough being married to bi*** with irreconcilable heat loss, friction, and pressure limitations and loss issues.
I feel4u, man
Don't forget to check your oil.
@@XStuntManiac Mhm.. imagine being a 2 stroke Diesel and complaining to Europeans about their emissions...
@@XStuntManiac chainsaws bro. The new STIHL 462 is a beast of power at a wieght that scares me. At like 2/3 max rev, the saw climbs in the air. The tip goes up significantly.
I sure hope free valve becomes a thing. There are such incredible amounts of improvements available to engines through unlimited valve timing and duration. It would really be a whole new level of engines. Everybody gets so exited about Vtec. Freevalve is like Vtec times a thousand.
Other continously variable valve lift and timing systems already exist in production today. Free valve does not add much over those except for high rpm/high boost applications which might benefit from the square valve profile, and maybe an easier way to implement cylinder deactivation.
Can't wait for free-valve, such a huge technology leap.
The concept has been out for almost 10 years or so. I doubt they do it full scale before the oems switch to all electric ⚡️
Never buy the first generation of anything. It's a cool idea, but longetivity/reliability and especially tuneability is critical to me. That's going to be a painfull repair bill if the actuators prove to be Russian roulette after 100k miles, which is when most of us enthusiasts are inheriting other people's problems, because we can't afford or don't want to pay those kinds of new car depreciations. One of the reasons stuff like Hondas are so popular...they weren't terribly expensive to begin with, 100k miles is nothing if they were reasonably maintained and they are typically indestructible even beyond that, and they are nearly infinitely modifiable.
@@hdrenginedevelopment7507 but.... infinite vtec bro
What I like in your presentation style is the continues evaluation of pros vs cons on every design aspect.
All my previous cars use timing belt. Never suffered premature belt failure in any of them. My current car uses timing chain. Gotta confess it's nice for once not having to count miles until the next belt change. I'm not against timing belt but I would like it if manufacturers made changing the belts easier. Some of my previous cars can be daunting.
Recently decided to change my crankshaft oil seal and didn't know about the crankshaft key needing to be aligned with the notch in the pulley. Soon I had a broken chain and a complete set of bent valves. Thought "might as well rebuild the engine." Since it has over 300k miles on it. Now it's all better and I know a lot more about engines too.
Your explanations are one of the best on RUclips.
Best channel ever, becoming one of my favorites, great job 😁
So much improvement wow
Thanks for the explanation and history lesson.
I just had my timing belt changed 25.000 km / 1 year ahead of schedule, because the engine warning light had come on (because of timing mismatch). 16 teeth had come of the belt. The mechanic said it was very lucky that the engine survived this with no harm.
I always selected my cars if they were designed with lifelong timing chains. I don't like the belts. Just a personal thing.
Edit: Phenomenal explanation, great video!
Great video, thanks. My Twincam Lotus has (single) chain driven cams (2 1/2 actually). One chain change in 50 years. Still outstanding performance! :)
Those old Mercedes double roller chain engines,made until the late 90's can literally pass 1million km with the original timing chain,sprockets,etc.
That's why they had to do away w that shit lickity split
M112 ftw
*grins in OM606*
yes but only on OLD mercedes...
@@AuGold808 no money in reliable engines that never die. Can’t sell new parts and cars if they still allow older cars to run around being bullet proof.
I'm amazed someone could make a 20 minute video about this and none of the video is filler nonsense.
Another great video. I just sold my 140000 mile Honda Accord Euro....timing belt driven engine and I was not good with changing oil, naughty. I had no issues with that car, it was a amazing!
Timing gears are a great option on pushrod engines, but can be noisy as well. When I upgraded my old Ford 300-6 to steel gears it sounded like it had a blower, and I'm sure if I could hear anything over my 7.3 it'd be the timing gears.
I have had a pushrod engine with a timing belt, though. Strangest thing ever.
Well, the VW 2.5 I5 and 5.0 V10 TDIs have timing gears as well, they have the nickname "children's rattle" for a reason.... 😂
No problem On The noise atleast it can last decades
The WW2 Jeep had a gear driven camshaft. The gear on the crankshaft is steel but the one at the camshaft is plastic. Surprisingly the steel gear wears faster.
The microscopic grit in the oil gets impregnated in the plastic and turns it into very fine sandpaper.@@johannriedlberger4390
I enjoyed 100% of your videos so far, they are very clear and well made. Seriously, keep up the good work!
I learned more here than Engineering Explained 😀👍
Both excellent channels, all top quality data from engineers.
@ 100% still learned more here ;)
engineering explained has very dull method of explaining.
Can't pay attention to him knowing he is a shill
@@creator4413 Engineering Explained guy needs a hair cut. Badly.
Belts have improved over time too, more advanced rubber compounds combined with Kevlar reinforcement made them quite durable compared to old versions.
why fix something thats not broken?
I had a mercedes 2014 e200 coupe (second hand) with a timing chain that failed at 60,000 kms. and camshaft adjuster broken (cracked so they had to flush the engine 5 times) and fuel injectors clogged. costing me $10,000 to repair... was i scammed? i never wanted a german car ever again after that.
@@tomdoppio if you took it to a dealership then ya😂
And then there's wet belts, that run in oil, and as the oil accumulates crap from the engine it degrades the belt rapidly, especially if you don't use the exact oil spec, otherwise you'll be doing a belt every 30k miles or 3 years if you dont want it to snap
Timing belt is the worst... NEVER EVER BUY A CAR THAT HAS TIMING BELT !!! I have had timing belt snap on one of my cars 3 times on my first car a 1,6l Opel diesel. Next car was a brand new Opel 1,6l petrol car that I changed the belt on after only 25.000km and 1,5 years instead of the recomended 60.000km / 4 years, the belt was almost shredded and has skipped 2 teeth. But the worst was on a 2001 Mazda 626 diesel 16valve where the timing belt snapped and destroyed the engine and the car was a wreck after that and got condemed... On all the cars all services was followed with regular checks and cange of timing belt. ... ... . ..
You are the only RUclipsr who can make a video about Timing Belts/Chains and make it this entertaining.
One of the best channels on youtube.
Timing gears FTW! Also I believe Ford and VAG have some engines now with "wet belts".
Yes. Scary. I like my belts dry!
That requires specific oil!!!
GM 3 cylinder engines are also using that amazing technology.
Lol, ea888 comes to mind)
Timing gears fail. Ask an owner of a 1985 2.5 L Pontiac engine. No engine damage...just stranded wherever it fails.
@@fastboatster Actually new version of timinig chain and tensioner has no problems at all on EA888 engines... gen1/2. Gen3 engine doesn't suffer from timing chain tensioner and chain problems.
As an automotive tech. for 17 yrs. who graduated finally to an actual automotive engineer for the last 20 yrs. I love your videos and the way you explain it so anyone can understand.
Please keep up your videos, you are doing all a great "service" Pun intended !
Two strokes be like: aye mate wtf is timing
Port timing? Power valve timing, ignition timing 🧐
More timing = more better
@@jamest5149 port timing? ports are there u cant move them,its not like ur ports will move when something brakes,they are just holes in cilinder
thers only ignition timing and power valve and not every 2 stroke has power valve
Uniflow scavenging?????
What if to do JZ engine with chain?
This channel is more "engineering explained" than Engineering Explained is.
Surprised you didn't mention timing chain guide failure, for example the N52 is often recommended a 100k mile service life for the chain assembly, because the chain guides are made of plastic and can shatter.
Enjoyed it! Historically might mention geared driven cams, and even desmodromic valve timing on bikes...
Good to know thar there are people out there that still remember timing gears and also know desmo valve systems.
I will love an expansion around oiled timing belts. Ford has engines with this new type of belt with service intervals over 150k milles. Thank you for your enjoying explanations, cool style.
Cool if the engines actually lasted that long and were easy to repair.
These engines with oil lubed timing belts and direct injection (Ford 1.0 ecoboost, Peugeot 1.2 Puretech...) are garbage if used in a specific way. If a vehicle is often run on a short ranges, when engine doesn't heat properly, they dilute oil with an gasoline, thanks to the direct injection. After while oil can have pretty high contentration of gasoline in it. Apart from obvious mechanical damage to the engine, thanks to the lower lubrication, it also causes timing belts to etch and corrode its surface, bits of rubber release from the belt to the oil and eventually might plug oil galleries or oil pump strainer. This is not an problem, if car is running high milleage and is properly warmed every time, but when used on short ranges, oil should be changed after no more than 10k Km and timing belt after 100k Km, but lot of people doesn't do this, because they don't know about it and using long intervals prescribed by manufacturer.
Lets take Ford Fiesta 1.0 EB, its cheap car and most people who buy it use it in low mileage, short range mode. Old people who drive from home to shop to doctor and back to home. Few kilometers through city with a lot of stops. Engine never heat up to operating temperature. Timing belt change cost something around 1200 - 1500€, because whole engine have to be taken out of the car. The price is huge for a small and cheap car. And you have to do it every 100k Km.
tl:dr direct injected, dry timing belt cars are garbage on cheap cars and don't buy them if you drive small distances.
@@frantisek8978 I thought Ford improved their 1 little EB since the early days or is it still garbage?.. I knew the Purecrap 1.2 wasn't Any gd that's why I went with the 1.0 in the Peugeot 108.
Because of the belt the engine is junk. I like everything else about the little 1.0 3 cyl. Engine. Also has a belt that drives the oil pump that will break and you don’t have enough time to turn the key off. Ask me how I know.
K20: "Whats up with him?"
_looking at m47_
2JZ: " IDK man he just snapped..."
OM606(@450): _laughing in 2.5bar boost_
Luckily my 2JZGTE belt snapping doesn't hurt the engine. Unless it's the JDM interference one, I'd hate that cost.....
OM606: *laughing in 2.5 bar boost @6500 rpm*
Nitro yep they don’t make them like that any more, 651 is an absolute dog
@@th3thin9 ,OM601 laughing at 2 million kms whitout any issue :D, OM6XX engines are the bests diesel ones :)
@@RST-R-MODS All mercedes Indirect Injection Diesels are bulletproof and extremely awesome!
Don’t forget....#4
Running low on oil
My new favorite way to pass my leisure time is to watch your videos. Never have I learned so much anywhere else. Objective to the core, just the way I like it!!! Much love
This is among my list of “best channels” on RUclips for learning. Every video is awesome👍
Outstanding-- a complex topic, clearly explained, with excellent graphics. I subscribed.
Another fantastic video clearly explaining things that all serious engine heads and car enthusiasts should know, but likely don't. I would appreciate a follow up video in the future regarding how to check for timing chain/belt wear, replacement intervals, etc. I know replacing a timing chain is best left to a very competent professional, but other than changing oil regularly, is there anything else an owner can do to ensure maximum reliability and longevity?
Timing chains can be measured for stretch but if they are hidden good luck. Belts on the other hand you can hear or see wear. Just look for cracks and odd discoloration
Highly appreciate your detailed explanation of the all connecting "heart" element of a car. Learnt a lot!
You summed it up perfect at 19min. We are putting way more chains in K24 and even the new 1.5 Turbos due to excess wear than we ever have on any Belt driven Honda engine. Even the new 4 Cam Honda V-6 is staying with a belt, thank goodness. Also saying its a case by case situation is an good way to put it as well.
Thanks for great analysis of both timing parts. I use to envy long lasting no maintenance OHV chains, then studied chain stretch problems when used with OHC. Ever use a chain saw? The chain bar has to be adjusted for chain stretch. Changed my mind about timing belts. Yes belts require maintenance, but at 100k it's probably a good time to replace belt tensioner and water pump. Just find an engine that is non interference and no worries about a broke belt causing valve
damage. You don't want a timing chain to run a water pump because if water pump seal leaks, it goings into the chain lubricating oil !
You didn't mention timing gears at all??? Well i know they are more used in big engines like trucks and tractors etc...
and real race engines (all F1 engines use timing gears)
@@manitoublack my old honda cbr250rr used gears. Makes a sweet whizzing when revved
ford 300 inline 6
They are also used in a very small engine being the one in the early cbr250s
Toyota in-line 4 and 6 from the 60's, 70's and 80's also had gears. Original old school gear drives needed a reverse grind cam because there were no idlers...iskendarian...awesome
When the belt is sus af, the piston and valves will have an emergency meeting
Ford 1.0 EcoBoost has timing belt running in oil. I just changed the belt of my Focus after 250tkm. Not cheap but 4-5 times more durable than BMW/Mini/Citroen/Peugeot THP engine timing chain..
It’s called a wet belt and they still snap.
Here is another example from Finland: My toyota celica t-sport 1.8 (4cyl 192 hp na) chain is designed to last about 400 000 km, in addition to metal matrix composite materials used in the engine block. Not many on the road! And manual of course :)
Hey, so... I have basically zero idea about how cars work. I work in the automotive industry, but it's a really basic bitch office job. I do work with mechanics every day though, and they are pretty interesting people, so I have motivation to learn their trade a little. Your videos are quite easy to follow along with and you do a stellar job with explaining these different concepts. Thank you! Maybe some day I will understand what they're talking about in their group chat.
I looove your video’s. I am a newbie petrolhead. And I like what you teach a lot. So educational!
I'm gonna become a pro watching this gearhead channel.
Thank you, you go slow and explain everything in detail so well that it's a pleasure to follow you and actually learn and understand.
Timing chain lasts for the life of the engine = when the chain breaks, the engine has reached the end of its life.
some engines are non-interference so a broken chain/belt isn't necessarily a catastrophic event
Depends, many chains are too weak to last, easily upgradeable tho.
No they are not. Have you ever considered chain stretch? I have replaced them because the ecm would set a crankshaft and camshaft correlation issue. That never said it was the end of the engines life. As long as the piston rings are still in good condition and you have good oil pressure I see no reason why the engine cannot continue to run. I have a GM 4.3 with 461k miles on it and I have seen many modular Ford engines that the chains was the reason for poor engine performance problems. And as ^ said. They have interference and non-interference engines. And just because a belt brakes on a non-interference engine does not mean they would be any catastrophic damage
@@wallyhare8616 how would I know if a car has interference or noninterference engine?
Not necessarily. Timing chains as well as their tensioners and guides do wear out over time and they can and do fail. When they do fail, replacing them is often a lot more difficult than replacing a belt.
Another very informative and entertaining video!
Only one thing to add: Besides chains and belts there are engines with timing gears.
I know even some OHC engines that use multiple gears in between to cover the distance from the crank gear to the cam gear(s). For example the 5 cyl Diesel engine of the VW Bus T5 or that crazy V10 TDI engine installed in the early VW Touareg.
As far as i know some Peugeot/Citroen engines used timing gears as well.
Your sense of humour is outstanding) Appreciated the intro 😂
You should do one about timing gears. Even if it only be used in a limited capacity.
This has helped to improve my understanding of the timing systems. I would be interested in learning more about this "free valve" concept for engines.
Actually the BMW N47 Engine made up to 214hp from the factory, as some N47 engines found their way into the E9x BMW-Alpina D3. In which they made 200hp as the single turbo- and 214hp as the compound turbo setup.
You are a well informed and talented presenter. Thankyou
Just wanted to say thank you for all your videos. Your videos the way you explain things seem to make me understand infpmation so easily. Appreciate all your hard work.
Now ford star using the wet timingbelt and belt in oil drives. I will subscribe to your channel because i learn alot. Hope i can watch your explanation about the wet timing belt.
you should do a video about the fsi/ TFSI engines chain problems. They have both timing chain and.timing belt
I own a SAAB and the chain in the engine (B204) is a lifetime part, provided you change the oil regularly.
My last car, bought with a dead engine for very cheap with a good safety, buddy and i swapped the engine and ended up costing me $650 for the car and "new" engine for 2-1/2 years of reliable driving before i let it go for a half ton. The bad engine would crank but not fire, no bad noises at all during cranking. We decided to tear into it just to see what was wrong. A hand full of bent push rods and mangled roller lifters, and a couple bent rockers. We pulled off the timing cover and the chain was separated in two places. Crank spun freely compression on cylinders, but cam was seized. After working it a bit we could only get it to move maybe 1/4" in either direction. We never got around to getting into the lower intake or heads to see what else was damaged. It was a GM 3.1L MPFI V6. it has 185,000 km on it. replaced it with the same engine from a scrapped vehicle with 280,000km on it, and that engine was still going at over 370,000km when i retired it. Car was 92 Lumina. It had one hell of a lifter tick the entire time i drove it. The day i officially laid it to rest, i moved it off the street to take the tags off so it could transfer them to my new truck. Battery was dead in a manitoba deep freeze for over a week. Gave it a charge for a few min and a boost from my fathers car and she fired, had to open throttle to keep it going for a few seconds but ran like a top after. It was so frozen the transmission dropped out of gear as i was backing it up the drive way for a second and slammed back into gear. Even though the lower intake gasket failed and contaminated the oil with coolant it still stared reliably even in brutal conditions. was a good car.
your videos really deserve a combo award...keep updating us.thank you..
Some modern engines can be a nightmare if you do need to replace the chains as often they are an engine-out job due to poor access. Belts are often easier.
No they are not!
I think both are reliable since the companies continue to produce them. Maybe I prefer the timing belt since it is easier to replace than the timing chains that are inside. I hope I'm right.
Perhaps the most important reason for return to chains is variable timing using hydraulic adjusters. Which aren't very compatible with open dry belts.
My 2002 miata disagrees. Usually cam phasers, which I assume you mean by hydraulic adjusters, need to be pressurized or drained in a controlled manner so they don't just dump oil everywhere. Anything going into the hydraulic adjuster comes from the solenoid, and anything leaving the adjuster also needs to go through the solenoid.
There are more examples, too. I've done belts on volvos with VVT, same as my miata. Subies, they have VVT and belts. My 07 OBXT has AVCS, which is VVT on a belt. Of course it's exploded because it's a turbo subie, but that's unrelated.
So I also disagree, variable valve timing has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't even know of any leakage issues from any of those VVT setups, hell of a lot less than I know of chain driven water pumps leaking into the pan, costing several grand to fix...
Volvo did eat the serp belt which found it's way behind the crank pulley and eventually jumped timing, didn't eat the valves though. Someone got lucky!
@@pontiacg445 You are correct as long as there's not even the tiniest leak from the phaser. Or the phaser is internal while the belt is external. Withe chains the sprocket is usually mounted on the exterior of the phaser itself which can shorten the engine just a little bit. And the chain will be narrower than a belt. That's not normally an issue with a longitudinal mount such as the Miata, but can be with a transverse mount.
@@anvilsvs The phaser does leak, anything that leaks goes into the sealed front chamber with the cam bolt. The cam bolt is drilled through, anything that leaks makes it's way back to the sump via this route. As I said earlier, none of these systems are known for leaking oil. It doesn't happen often at all.
Cam hydro phasers need surface area to work, the imbalance of pressure on a given surface area is how they work. Any of them you see, they are as wide as a belt. The chain takes up maybe 1/8 of the depth of the phaser. Size has nothing to do with it. As an example, volvo found it possible to stuff a transverse inline 5 with a belt into pretty much everything they made. They even fit transverse I6 with dual turbos, dual VVT and a timing belt. PITA, those cars...
So, once again, VVT has absolutely nothing to do with the move towards chains.
@@pontiacg445 I really liked the Volvo transverse I6 design. Driving the transmission from the center of the crank eliminates one major problem with I6s, torsional vibration. More manufacturers should have done this.
We have Saturn Vues which come with the 250hp. Acura MDX power trains. They have a standard belt replacement interval of 100,000 miles/160,000KM. When you do it, you replace the belt, rebuild the hydraulic tensioner, replace the water pump, as well as set the lash on the solid lifters, and change the spark plugs. It's not cheap, ~$1,200. Some people never change them and get 220,000 and more with no issues. It's obviously best to do the maintenance since once in a while one does break. The dealerships say they seldom see it, but the belts never get old or worn looking. They tend to look perfect until they ain't. When you get into the 220K+ range without doing the maintenance, you are more likely to burn a valve from not setting the lash on the solid lifters, so even if you skip it at 100K, make sure you do it at 200K if you are going to push things.
From what I've seen chain drive systems is the better choice if they are.
A) Designed properly
B) Made with quality parts
I can think of several engines that have poorly designed/made chain drive systems including:
Hyundai Theta II
GM Alloytec V6's
Mazda MZR turbo
VW 2.0 TSI
Clearly there's a lot of good ones too. What I really don't like about chains though is the difficulty/cost of servicing if it does need changing. It's also a lot harder to access just to inspect it. Really the only time I've known of a modern belt to snap was on an engine that's severely neglected. Personally I've done belt changes at 100,000 kms and they looked great still. I wouldn't double the distance I drive on them, but the fact that a lot of belt driven cars are scheduled for 160,000kms change intervals speaks worlds about how good they are these days.
Some points , most timing belt cars I've worked on the manufacturer was kind enough to make it easy to work on for the simple fact that belts are a service item, also on certain cars it requires the removal of the valve cover implying that you do a valve adjustment and gasket change at the same time , also the drive belts must be removed which would generally make the water pump easier to access or if driven by the timing belt itself gets replaced at the same time aswell as the camshaft and crankshaft oil seals. So after a certain period (honda as an example 6 years or 160,000kms) all those parts are replaced and will ensure a nice trouble free life till the next belt replacement . Timing chains on the other hand are usually not made to be easily replaced while in the vehicle as they are there for the "lifetime of the engine" (funny joke). Also many engines have stupidly undersized chains or poorly designed tensioners and prematurely fail even when serviced on time. Also because of this the drive belts, oil seals and waterpump usually don't get replaced and end up leaking or leaving you stranded. They both have their positives and negatives but to say the timing belt is inferior is simply not true
Good opinion and comment... Everytime I hear an engine bouncing of the rev limiter.... My mind creates a picture of what pounding those tensioners are taking. Oil pressure tensioners, guides, springs and the like.. loading and unloading. Inertia is less on belts in my observation...
On the K20 the water pump is driven by the ACC belt. I change my oil every 10.000 km and I use a ceramic anti friction additive made by liqui moly every 3rd oil change. I think that if I keep doing that, my engine would last a fairly long time (I hope lol)
@@mixedboi yep and on my jdm k20a the waterpump leaked at 170k kms. I also ended up inspecting the timing chain, guides and tensioner because of the fear of failure so commonly mentioned. I found that the guides, chain and tensioner showed absolutely no wear at all , and the car sees the 9000rpm rev limiter all the time . I always check the oil frequently and change it every 8k kms. Proof that regular servicing is all they need to last .
@@awsomemustang yes you are on point. Regular maintance isn't going to help VW and BMW though xD.
I have the economy K20A6 155hp Accord which feels like a rocket, had an EP2 earlier, this year.
I don't even have 100k km yet, feels tight as a drum.
I wish you lots of fun with your K20A, keep it in the fun zone.
17:50 my BMW B47 engine has a 19000 mile interval under ideal running conditions. I run 90% on the highway so ideal conditions according to the condition based servicing but do replace the oil at 10 to 12000 miles regardless
Wow, that is a pretty incredible service interval. You are definitely wise to shorten that interval. I think BMW stated at some point that their long service interval is part of a "commitment to reducing pollution." To me it seems like increasing the number of prematurely destroyed engines would have quite a large impact on their environmental footprint versus having to recycle more used oil.
@@bradcomis1066 Play on words. BMW was committed to reducing pollution by making it so that your car fails from a bogus factory oil change interval, and you go out and buy a new one. This keeps old polluting bmws off the road.😁
It might have been worth mentioning that long chains and long belts both need tensioners, and to describe how they use different types of tensioners.
I’ve said it before, but I will say it again. Your channel is amazing!
Noooooo way. You choose my engine, instant like. Thumbs up from those who know or have this engine !
But it is also a good example for timing chain failure 😂
The moment I seen the L24 and Z you got a like and subscriber :D
That's what I was thinking
How about “wet” timing belts?
I’d like to see a video on that!
4:39
Might as well be a chain, in terms of serviceability.
I wish you would have talked about the rope. I know it came in on 3rd but I still would like to try it in my car.
The rope is used to pull a vehicle using another vehicle if you don’t have a tow truck if your belt snap or your chain skips lol
I think the main reason why people don't like timing belts is the fact that it costs the better part of $1000 to get it changed every 50,000-80,000km, compared to a timing chain which usually never needs to be replaced as part of regular maintenance
I drive a holden commodore, it uses a timing chain, it has 280,000km on the clock (120,000 of those km are mine) and it has never needed replacing, or even any maintenance apart from changing the oil, my mechanic says the chain is still the original one that the car came with
My mate who drives a holden barina (he got it brand new) and in the 410,000km he's put on it, he's had to replace the timing belt 6 times, and at $800 a pop, that's a LOT of money, he's spent more money on timing belts alone than I'll spend on oil changes for the next 10y (and he still has to do those regardless)
So as far as money is concerned, chains win
Change the oil? You betcha, every dollar spent on oil saves $100 on maintenance. Good show mate! Cheers, P.R.
14:21 hahahah i swear this clip of Uzis "All My Chains" music vid was so unexpected and gave me a good laugh. Its without joking my all time fav uzi song 👍🏼👍🏼
9:40 made me giggle thinking about a timing rope
Love the chain rattle of my 3.0tdi in the morning 🥰
I'm a former design engineer and was once in a design team faced with the belt vs. chain choice (it was a Volkswagen four-cylinder). It all came down to cost. Chains are - by direct comparison - much more expensive to produce, so the decision will always tend towards a belt. In some situations, however, the more timely replacement of the belt or its potential premature failure will compensate the costs and make the belt more expensive (through warranty claims and producer-paid maintenance in some sales models).
Belts really resurged through new material formulations that, for instance, allowed Continental to guarantee 300.000km lifetimes for a belt. This effectively puts the belt on par with a chain with respect to a "lifetime component", the expected lifetime being ca. 200.000km as per design.
This was awesome. Good quality information, history, everything. Good job!
The BMW N47 engine series would most likely NEVER earn a reputation for snapping chains if the oil change intervals were a much more sensible 10,000km instead of an insane 25,000km. Expecting oil to last that long in a high performance engine, especially without resorting to extreme measures such as bypass filters to filter out practically all particles and oils of extremely high grade, is asinine.
At that part i was like
"People are so fucking miserable that they don't want to change oil"
All Europeans change their oil at long mileage intervals. This is recommended by the mfg. I wonder why? Jim
A big part of the problem, and something that Americans seem completely oblivious to, is that in Europe BMWs aren't "luxury cars" that only wealthy people can afford to buy. BMW, MB, Audi etc make reasonably priced cars that not only most people can buy, but are actually aimed at the company car market specifically. Probably half of the n47s BMW made were initially bought or leased as company cars, and driven by people who could not care less about their maintenance. Some of the people driving these cars would cover 25.000Km in less than a year and wouldn't show up to service the car until it had well over that.
I've seen cars that had over 60.000Km which were still on the original engine oil. Naturally timing chains are hardly the only issue that results from that. Many of these 4 cylinder Diesel company cars change turbos as often as they change oil.
3:24 "belts run Dry"
Laughs in french
Let me guess... 1.2VTi/PureTech from PSA?
@@DSLRwalker yea, but the germans are starting to do it now as well
@@aaaabababa Oh, i thought it's only PSA's thing.
@@DSLRwalker looking into it a bit, i think vw started doing it quite a while before psa did it.
@@aaaabababa oh i see, thanks for the info!
It’s not just wear... harmonic loads, internal friction cause failures.
Thank you, someone said it.
BMWs of that era have SO MANY engine failures because of the hilarious engine oil service intervals. For example I had a '09 328i and the oil change interval was 13k miles. I always changed it at 5k and even then the oil was quite dirty. I can't imagine how quickly the engine would've died with 13k mile oil with how I drove it.
Great video my friend, learnt some new stuff watching this video, even after 30yrs of messing with engine.
I feel like I'm receiving a lesson on cars from Gru.
Should do timing gear aswell because ford 300 laughs in steel gear
tbone3366 the big 6 was a great engine. Last ford engine I loved.
@@jeffreygoss8109 I love my 84 150 big six, sounds like a diesel down low and has a great rumble up midway
335k on the factory 4.6 mod timing chains 🤙🏻
@@hank1556 that's pretty good, my 87 f250 is sitting at 800+k with only rocker adjustments
After that dad joke my opinion of this channel has "chainged"
Excellent explanation
In my old Volvo with a red engine block no damage would be caused to the engine as a result of timing belt failure because of the valve clearance, in contrast to most other engines