What Do You Think of Holistic Management?
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2019
- This Q&A is pulled from a collection of questions posed to me by students of my Online Permaculture Design course (PDC). Learn more with my free four-part Masterclass series, here:
www.discoverpermaculture.com/...
Question:
What do you think of Holistic Management? In terms of solutions for grasslands and desertification is it the ultimate solution for the global crises that Savory makes it sound like it is in his TED talk? Secondarily, are you familiar with "the holistic management decision framework"? Apparently, this is not published on the web anywhere you have to buy the book and when I have asked related questions I have been told "you need the whole framework" to understand which as I mentioned can only be obtained by buying in... this would be called 'mal educato' in Italy.
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About Geoff:
Geoff is a world-renowned permaculture consultant, designer, and teacher. He has established permaculture demonstration sites that function as education centers in all the world’s extreme climates - information on the success of these systems is networked through the Permaculture Research Institute and the www.permaculturenews.org website.
About Permaculture:
Permaculture (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permacu...) integrates land, resources, people and the environment through mutually beneficial synergies - imitating the no waste, closed loop systems seen in diverse natural systems. Permaculture applies holistic solutions that are applicable in rural and urban contexts and at any scale. It is a multidisciplinary toolbox including agriculture, water harvesting and hydrology, energy, natural building, forestry, waste management, animal systems, aquaculture, appropriate technology, economics, and community development.
#permaculture #holisticmanagement #cellgrazing
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Holistic management is a perfect partner for permaculture.
Couldn't agree more
Geoff Lawton I have learned from you, Bill, John Kholer and Richard perkins. Perkins said about Savory. I was already seeing the pieces fit. Savory added where little was missing but a lot was unseen by me. The big picture came into view. After I had an Epiphany. Where I relised how things clicked into place. My life Will never be the same. If I could accomplish a fraction of what I see is posibule. Just wanted to say Thank you for all you do. you just said in this video what I've been outlineing for the last year. and started this year. one acre, my start. 250 hector, my goal. if I don't make it, I'm going to have fun trying. This is my first public statement of this fact. shoot for the stars. if you aim low you have nowhere to go. aim high and if you fall short. you still made it further than the ground at your feet.
Well said.. sounds like a case of analysis paralysis. I dunno if it was Tim Ferris who said it first, but... “The good system you stick with, is better than the perfect one you don’t”
I don't think that the letter writer listened to the TED talk closely enough. Alan Savory was talking about dry grasslands specifically. He never spoke about any other type of climate or terrain management and made a very good point about the large proportion of dry grasslands that are desertifying.
I dont think you've listened to savory outside of ted enough, it can be used almost anywhere
The person who asked the question was asking about the information in the TED talk and that talk was specific to dry grasslands. Of course it will work elsewhere in more humid climates and that is mentioned in the talk, but only one or maybe two sentences.
I have listened to Savory outside of the TED talk and I agree with you I just think that the point was missed that he was speaking about LARGE scale restoration of dry grasslands and not deforested slopes, humid grassland, clear cut jungle or forests, etc...
@@mishap00 respect bro 😁🤠 that was a very good way to answer my rude response keep it up bro check out the wim hof method and carnivore diet i think you'll be interested
Great response to this question. There are many resources out there so much great information to learn from.... Yes ACTION is what we need!
You are loved, and are so loving and humble in all you do..
Permaculture, holistic management and so on, are beneficial to one another. They are strategies to regenerate the world, not contradictive to one another.
One of us misunderstands what Holistic management grazing is. you said:
Eat to the ground
One pass and done
where my understanding is they:
Eat one bite and then move a step or so to the next bite, as to take 50% or less.
The farmer observes the growth of the forage to find how long it grows before the growth slows down, then creates a plan to get the herd back on it again immediately.
The density is what keeps the graze even.
I was pretty sure thats what sets apart his method from people like Greg Judy, Gabe Brown, Jim Gerrish, etc.
I agree that they all work and they all are pretty much the same thing. I think allan's method is nothing more than the most direct way to bring everything that everyone else is doing to its maximum production level as well as not giving yourself the option to use some of the crutches that the other methods offer (got lost in editing that, but you get what im saying). I cant find anything else that sets him apart. Which in my theory is why he spends so much time being pedantic... Hes not saying anything more than anyone else short of 'broaden your definition of capability'; hes like a shot of lsd, very confusing but helps you see past your own BS, should you have any lol.
Hi Geoff. Thank you for your thorough answer about holistic management. I was very curious about your thoughts on Alan Savory’s work. Your answer seems so obvious.
It's important to keep in mind that the HM decision-making process is a set of seven tests for best outcomes in every field. It's not about cows. He uses cows and right grazing management only as an example.
Yes and many systems also have similar
Yes, I am disappointed in the dismisal of the question about the HM decision making framework. Talking about how everyone has principals and reading Bill Mollison 's misses the point and leads me to think that you are not familiar with the decision making framework. If you are, why did you not address it and mislead your viewers?
There is free info available online talking about the decision making framework, which is specifically about using your holistic context paired with 7 context checks to help make decisions holistically. Even though it is usually paired with livestock (that's how it came to be) it can be used with or without cows. I highly recommend to those watching this video to look more into Holistic Management before dismissing it as just another system out there.
@@stevelarson4925 Where do you find this free information, ive searched many times over the years and never find anything that clears up the decision making framework.
Very much appreciate your illustration of the complementary nature of Mollison's and Savory's ideas. Anyone who read and studied Andre Voison's works and saw his photos of Apple trees in his Norman pastures would understand the systems are compatible.
in a seasonal humid environment (where the land is prone to desertification) grass has to be broken down biologically once every year, the old growth needs to go to make room for new, and only ruminants are able to do that, so thats the reason why planned grazing is the only solution to regenerate these types of ecosystems.
Other than your ideals being smart, one of the reasons I like you Geoff; is because you respect HUMANS and animals. So many people in permaculture or any other organic type of husbandry/farming, are bashing the human race with every other breath. You seem like a kind individual and that matters. Be kind to the earth, animals, AND humans.
So true. And on the whole look how influential/divisive the hysterical human bashes are. An asset to big corrupt agribusiness!
Geoff is our best asset for getting past the stigma, into something like the mainstream....
Balance is the key word, using all the best of the systems in order to create a true holistic system, thanks to the Geoff and team.
I have a 160 acre farm out here in northern central Nevada. I basically use holistic management for managing animals while using permaculture practices and principals for the overall design of the property. They work together and are very similar ideas/systems. I just don’t get why Allen Savory likes to hate on things like swales on contour. I know he wants all the water to infiltrate the land where it falls as opposed to running off into swales but it seems like a mixture of the two ideas would be most beneficial. Get as much water to soak in where it lands, but in those big storms where that’s not possible, why not catch it with a swales on contour. But Holistic management seems more like a framework for making decisions in line with permaculture/holistic management to when you start to applying thing like “the aide memoir” into your management to tweak your “whole” or system into the right direction and see when things are going in the wrong direction… I love both…
Thank you for all you're doing to help the world see there's a better way. I buy eggs and meat from pastured animal farming source, and am avidly spreading the message of regenerative ag and permaculture. I hope the live on a larger piece of land to do this with soon.
The color and the consistency of pasture fed beef is so much better. You end up eating smaller portions because there is more nutrition and you feel full with a lot less. It's a tragedy how industrial agriculture has been treating animals and it's a tragedy farmers believe it's the only way to run their business.
Not a grazing system but a way of managing complex things. We do though in all situations have only 4 tools, tech, animal impact, fire, rest. If you are an accountant you will benefit from applying this management. This management is the opposite of reductionist thought which causes desertification so it truly is the only way to reverse it. But can be applied to any business doing anything not a grazing system.
In the end its about getting our heads around the ecology and acting accordingly. Also Frans Vera is a mind to wrangle with in conjunction with Allen Savory.
Thank you so much Geoff
Methodologies such as Biodynamics may work, but it doesn't work for the reasons that devotees claim and involves extensive labor, expensive products and mysticism where there should be science and education.
Permaculture is the sole field to recognize systems science and apply natural principles with minimum anthropocentric bias.
Correct
Mysticism is made up mumbo jumbo with false and unprovable premises. Science does deal with the unseen, for example, the electrons being manipulated so we can have this conversation.
You won't find many sceptics who still appreciate the value of biodynamic production, as I do - it's tasty low-impact food, but it is apparent that biodynamics are a misguided, labor-intensive and very rudimentary form of applied microbiology.
Permaculture has improved millions of lives and the veracity of every aspect is underlined by reference to scientific studies.
Syntropic agriculture is an extremely simplified diorama of a forest without much specialist knowledge of ecology, hydrology, microbiology or system dynamics.
If you read the foundational Permaculture literature, it's difficult to imagine a more complex, all-encompassing system of design.
@Sebastian Wolff Nah, let's agree that you have no rebuttal and your original claim was an uninformed one with no evidence behind it.
@Sebastian Wolff If you think you're on a higher level of consciousness you are completely deluded.
Talk about ego-tripping.
If you have no knowledge or analysis to contribute, why even comment?
It's unfortunate that a prominent permaculturalist like Geoff won't reject "biodynamics", which is astrology plus some accidental microbiology. It tarnishes the whole movement, and might well be a good reason it isn't a lot further along after 40 years.
This cameraman knows his framing techniques.
‘Mal educado’.... this is referred to as leveraged marketing in the US. Its designed to utilize the video or online resource that has been developed as a tool to move books and information into the hands of the student and to share value of investment in the process.
SELECTIVE versus NON-SELECTIVE grazing.
• There is confusion between SEVERE grazing and OVERgrazing.
Overgrazing is related to the time a plant is allowed to recover after severe grazing.
Continuous SELECTIVE overgrazing at low animal impact is the problem with conventional management that has to be addressed.
• There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that non-selective grazing results in a lower level of nutrition and poorer body condition.
There is also no doubt about the fact that improved grass utilisation occurs (higher stocking rate) and that plant species composition changes in favour of more productive (higher stocking rate) and more nutritious plants (alleviates poor condition).
• Most protagonists of intensive grazing advocate “grazing the top third of plants” to allow animals an improved nutrient intake.
What is the chance of my cattle only eating the top 1/3 of ALL grass species and leaving 2/3s behind?..ZERO
Notice that even under UHDG they leave most of the very unpalatable Palens grass and graze the rest of the species almost 💯 pct..
.
There is no way that grazing the top third of all plants in a diverse community of plants can be achieved, unless animals are trained or bred to do so.
Any animal will graze selectively if given the choice. Therefore, instead of grazing the top third they will selectively graze a third of the material on offer - some individual plants will be grazed to a varying degree and some will be left ungrazed.
The ultimate result is better body condition at the expense of stocking rate and species composition.
• A far better option is to address body condition via genotype (high relative intake), rumen supplementation (minerals, protein, urea and probiotic), synchronising production with natural nutrition (calve, breed and wean during the period of best nutrition) and shorter grass recovery (higher nutrient concentration) at critical times.
In regard to a shorter recovery period this applies more to low octane grazing. Deliberately shortening the recovery periods must be done with the provisos of grazing “non-selectively” and alternating these intensively grazed areas with long recovery in the long term.
Non-selective “overgrazing” in combination with high animal impact and alternate longer recovery results in good species composition and maximum profit / unit of land.
There is a serious disconnect in the Holistic Management group between cattle and grass.
References: Johann Zietsman and Jaime Elizondo
ruclips.net/video/jeuRyDLnPsw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/HJinY9-FBic/видео.html
profitableranching.com/Profitable_Ranching/THE_Book.html
I think the HM systems that Alan Savory is proposing are very large systems and it would be unwise to attempt something on that scale without specialized knowledge. Imagine working a few hundred, or even thousands, of grazing animals of various types over a very wide range, protecting them from predators, poachers, rustlers, and the overly curious. You would need a team of well-seasoned (gritty) cowboys and cowgirls to get the job done right. But if you consider the alternative which is to let huge tracts of marginal land go fallow year after year you can see the need for this kind of specialized animal husbandry. Until HM can be brought to bare there could be other management techniques like swale building, wildlife corridors, and rest areas for hundreds of migrating species. Virtually an endless set of possibilities to reverse the desertification of marginal lands.
There are many of videos on RUclips and articles online that explain the Holistic Managment decision making process. While it is very helpful to read the book or take a training, those aren't the only way to learn about it.
It almost sounds like the questioner was looking for reasons to dislike it.
The book isn't that expensive - there are worse scams out there. How do you know if you will get anything out of a book until you buy it?
@@thecurrentmoment The book was a bit on the dense side, I'll grant you that. But to call it a scam? It would be unfair to compare any book with Permaculture One, an absolute masterpiece!
The problem with Savory and his family is that you can't tie them down to specific answers like you can with Geoff. They are really almost one could say deliberately vague. And if you ask for any science, lord help you. Then you get accused of not understanding HM. Peer reviewed studies are conspicuous by their absence. When making such huge clai.s as this being the only way to heal the earth and stop climate change etc you'd think information would be a little more forthcoming. But no. His daughter said that permaculture was a totally different thing.
Seriously, I predict in the future that these people will be heavily criticised and their beliefs will be shown for what they are. A sop to the meat and dairy industry. And a money making system, rather than a climate healing one.
As I said, there is a lack of science around it, and excuses as to why.
Elaine,
I suggest that there may be some confusion between HM versus Planned Rotational Grazing or Holistic Grazing, and what exactly Savory is claiming could save our ecosystems.
MFL Bison did a wonderful job pointing out that HM is essentially a decsion making process that expands upon the scientific method with human values (dependent upon their specific context) integrated. I'm not going to rehatch their points.
The Savorys have to be very careful about giving "concrete" answers to complex but vague questions, because if they are off on a single detail, even if they are *correct* overall, the detail will be used to discredit everything they say even what is not relevant to the incorrect detail.
Given his age, I don't know of Savory himself is still consulting, but there are many professionals in the Savory Institute's network who can work with individuals on their real life, concrete projects.
When it comes to the grazing aspect, it is a mischaracterization to say that there is a lack of evidence in the peer reviewed literature (this mischaracterization is often fueled by vegan propagandists who find the idea threatening to their narrative). What there is, is a general lack of studies using the *branding* of Holistic Grazing, but that is not the same thing as a lack of *science* itself. A great journal to start with is Rangeland Ecology and Management. There you will find many papers examining the underlying principles.
I want to add to the holistic method of grazing as I learned from Peter Andrews. Where the land is very sandy, hard hoofed animals make minimal impact so where land naturally had bison or other hard hoofed animals they were suited to that land. In Australia as we know, we have soft footed animals suited to the clay soils that undergo compaction. Ideally the farming of camels would be preferred over cows for meat and milk due to their soft feet. So any one principle doesn't fit the whole world and we have to adapt that principle to our unique environmental issues.
Holistic Management is not a grazing system. It includes animals for managing the land but it's very clear it's context-dependent. It includes everything: the climate, the weather, the type of soil, animal species etc, but also includes the social context of local politics and greater.
Holistic management is just a decision making framework. It’s not necessarily talking about grazing management. This is an often misunderstood element of it. Holistic planned grazing is a grazing management system within holistic management.
Savory has a point. There were billions of herbivorous roaming around and large predators. More or less there numbers massively reduced or they went extinct while we (sapiens) spread through the continents. That relation is missing, and maybe the idea that planting trillions of trees will save the world ( the sapiens), with all this vast lands dying from desertification, is not such a good idea. Perhaps this method should be taken seriously while plating trees
Everything can be in balance with good design.
I'd say with your composting and chop-n-drop you're the cow! What is a cow but a self-harvesting composting chop-n-drop unit that self-replicates?
Well... Cows dont just chop-n-drop, they also inoculate the material with beneficial bacteria, which is extremely important in cold climate winters, when the soil life is dormant.
Grass and cows co-evolved over millions of years. Bovines are necessary for the well being of the ecosystem.
@@marlan5470 mixed ungulates, not just or necessarily bovines. Rumination is where the beauty begins
@@downbntout The beauty starts in the mouth, where bacteria and enzymes work together with the plant. Look for Dr. Elaine Ingham on YT, and the website Soil Food Web. :)
Integrate, rather than segregate :::)
Hi Geoff, You have the same idea as what we at Powergrowater company have.
Please look at our web site www.powergrowater.com this will improve the waterside of what you are doing. Nigel Abraham
Holistic management is not cell grazing or mob grazing.
Geoff obviously didn't buy the book, and not a bloke who likes to say "I don't know"
Yes I understand and have for many years.
@@wes4192 HM is one of many tools within the permaculture toolbox and has been around for MANY years prior to Savory's TED talk. Last year I completed the HM course here in Argentina and there was nothing but praise and respect for Permaculture from Pablo Borrelli.
@@DiscoverPermaculture no you're reducing HM solely to a grazing system. HM doesn't even have to include holistic grazing. Holistic management is a framework for decision based on "wholes", So it's really a framework for ecosystem (and economic ) restoration that may or may not include grazing ruminants.
geoff your gracing should be more intensive you are a picture fore many.., like strip grazing.. mix it whit trees, manke around 30 fields
Is called 'greedy bastard' in USA...
Geoff, you must be either angry or devastated by the actions of Brazillian PM Bolsonaro. I hope you are lobbying hard the AUS govt. against the ongoing destruction of the Amazon rainforest?
permaculture first than Holistic management
Oh man, I can't help but to feel sad and disappointed about the fact that those beautiful and friendly bulls and cows are gonna become beef on someone's plate...
Bull trying on being a ham.....