@ChandlerPol You see the same thing with Kobe Bryant. Even Jordan had playoff games where he would shoot well under 40%, and yet they still won so many rings. I think that their mere presence allows their teammates to elevate their game, and play with the same kind of heart those guys played with after watching the amazing things they did on the court.
I'm glad that both of you guys each got a ring in the end! Goals accomplished I guess? One more thing, you're one of my top 5 PGs of all-time, easily: 1. Magic Johnson 2. Oscar Robertson 3. Isiah Thomas 4. John Stockton 5. Jason Kidd tbh I can't choose between the bottom 3, it depends on my feeling each different day :)
Johnny Johns Payton was better defensively and scoring but that was it. Kidd was one of the top 3 rebounders of all time from the point guard position, he was a far better passer than Payton, he was a better 3 point and free throw shooter and he turned decent players in to good players. Look at how mediocre his team was in New Jersey and he took them to back to back finals. The year before Kidd got there, they had an all star in Marbury. After they got Kidd they went from 26 to 52 wins. To say that Kevin Johnson is better all time than Kidd is a joke. Maybe in terms of scoring, but that's it. The most underrated thing about Kidd is that he went to back to back finals. Kidd never played with another all star before Kenyon Martin made one an all star team in '04. Payton went to one finals in his prime, and he had a great power forward, a very good team around him and one of the greatest coaches ever coaching him. Kidd went to two finals in his prime with a mediocre team, a good offensive power forward and Byron Scott as his coach. Payton played on better teams and was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Furthermore, Kidd was more valuable and contributed more to Dallas in 2011 than Gary Payton did to Miami in 2006. Defensively, sure, he is better than Kidd, but Kidd was a fantastic defender. Other than that, Kidd blows Payton out in about everything else. KJ isn't even close to Kidd.
i was thrilled when the news came out that Gary payton will mentor and develop damian lillard's defense. Payton and Kidd are both from bay area where another great PG in the making is emerging in damian lillard. GP is really good he help Kidd and now he will help lillard. GP even said that lillard is bigger than them him and kidd that lillard can surpass them both. great to know bay area boys helping each other.
July 23, 1968 (age 44) born in Oakland, California--google my good sir--but yes he did play for the Sonics and go to college in the NorthWest, but he got his game from Oakland!! Even Shaq and Webber talk about it on the TNT show now and again when they bring up Payton-also there is a Too $hort song that mentions Payton "Just another day" talking about after the game at Golden State, they went to his house and how NBA jams turned em out!! haha, NBA Jams is still a great game
@ChandlerPol Those facts speak to two issues: A) For all the talk of how Iverson carried a supposedly mediocre supporting cast, the defensive and rebounding role players around him bailed Iverson out about as much as he bailed them out. Specifically, they suppressed the opposition, gained extra possessions, and cushioned the liability of Iverson's inefficiency.
When going up against one another, in 41 head-to-head regular season matches, Kidd leads Payton with 22 wins to 19 losses. His overall stat line is also superior: 14.3 points, 6.8 rebounds and 10.1 assists to Payton’s 17.6 points, 4.7 rebounds and 6.2 assists. Please son.
@sumskater999 ... sure, the Sixers probably wouldn't have won a single playoff series that year without Iverson, but Philadelphia also won playoff games that spring where he shot 11-28 from the field, 10-31, 8-27, 13-35, 10-32, and 5-27. In that last game in the Eastern Conference Finals versus Milwaukee, Iverson scored 15 points on 27 field goal attempts and the Sixers still won! During one six-game stretch in those playoffs, Iverson shot 47-171 (27.49%) and Philadelphia somehow went 4-2!
@sumskater999 Regardless, my point was about the Defensive Player of the Year Award in 1996. The chances that even an outstanding defensive point guard constituted the most effective defender in a league with exceptional defensive forwards such as Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman and tremendous defensive centers like Mutombo, Mourning, Olajuwon, and David Robinson is dubious at best. To see Defensive Adjusted Plus-Minus data for those years would be very intriguing.
@sumskater999 That's an intriguing question, actually. People will probably view Iverson as a top ten shooting guard because of his points and awards, but his real level of effectiveness is debatable. Indeed, the list of teams that have improved following his departure is now quite long.
@sumskater999 I concur that Payton constituted an outstanding defensive guard, one of the best in the NBA for many years and worthy of a bunch of All-Defensive selections. I don't know if he deserved nine All-Defensive First Team spots, though; at some point, these honors usually become a matter of precedent and reputation as much as anything. For instance, was Payton really still one of the NBA's two best defensive guards at age thirty-three?
@ChandlerPol I would say that he was. In that 2001-02 season, I think he was still playing better defense than a guard like Kobe Bryant, who is also a great defensive player. By the time he got to the Lakers, he had obviously lost some of his fight.
@ChandlerPol B) The Eastern Conference, as would be the case the next two years when Kidd led the Nets to the Finals, proved second-rate, maybe even third-rate. Iverson's '01 Sixers and Kidd's '02 and '03 Nets won the East, but at best, they probably would have fallen in the First Round in the West.
@sumskater999 Rosen knows the game; in this case, he's not suggesting that those players weren't good, but that they prove overrated. While his criticism may be too severe at times, the gist of his comments often makes sense.
@ChandlerPol Well it's a lot easier for bigs to be great defenders. I think Payton made a HUGE defensive impact as a PG. He would close guys out and make it almost impossible to get a good shot off or even a solid pass, which ruins the whole flow of the other team since the PG is the play-maker. I think Pippen totally deserved one, because he would close out a whole team single-handedly, but he also camped in the paint a lot. I think it's a healthy debate, but Payton was right up there.
GP is about the 6th best PG of anytime and that's debatable. Kidd is better 5x all NBA defense 2 all time Assists 3 all time steals 3 all time in 3's made 10 in all time player efficiency rating 967% chance of going to the HOF GP 833% I heard from a great coach one day a great big man will beat a great smaller man everyday of the week 2x on Sunday. Kidd 6'4 215 GP 6' 180. Kidd is being humble he was referring to when he was 13 and GP was 18. Kidd was playing against men as a teenager.
@sumskater999 Yeah, but games where Jordan shot under 40% proved fairly rare and he represented a better all-around player than Iverson, so he could help his team win in more ways. Of course, Iverson also constituted a skilled passer, but one could argue that he was more of a black hole, that he didn't play within the flow like Jordan. For the record, Iverson actually shot below .390 (.389) in the 2001 playoffs (22 games), so he proved very inefficient on average.
@sumskater999 The debate may be a fair one, but while they all could create on a high level, Kidd wasn't a consistently effective scorer like K. Johnson, Nash, and Archibald. Of course, Kidd offered much more defensively than Nash and probably Archibald.
@sumskater999 Payton may have been better than Kidd (they possessed different strengths with a similar net value), but have you read Charley Rosen's comments about Payton's supposed great defense on Jordan? Payton didn't even guard Jordan for most of the '96 Finals and he probably received that Defensive Player of the Year Award on hype and reputation as much as anything. Do you really think that he constituted a better defender that year than Pippen, Mutombo, Mourning, Olajuwon, et al.?
@ChandlerPol Well I'm willing to BET the 76ers wouldn't have made it to the NBA Finals in 2001 without him. Yes, they had Mutombo, but without Iverson they probably wouldn't even have made the Conference Finals. Interestingly, most of the all-time greats who haven't won championships have at least led a team to the NBA Finals. Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, etc. So I think Iverson is right up there.
@rayallen0 I'd actually take Payton over Kidd, just because of his INCREDIBLE defense. I mean he's the ONLY true point guard in NBA history to win Defensive Player of the Year, an award usually reserved for big men who can block and rebound. The man could defend Michael Jordan better than anybody in the league, and was a greater scoring point guard as well. I think Kidd's strengths are in his 3, and creating space for his teammates, but he's almost unselfish to a fault sometimes.
Y'all who think he's the best point guard ever, I just got a few names for you. Magic Johnson. Oscar Robertson. Gary Payton. Bob Cousy. John Stockton. Isiah Thomas. End of story.
@sumskater999 "On January 9, 2007, Jason Kidd filed for divorce against his wife, citing "extreme cruelty" during their relationship. Kidd contended intense jealousy, paranoia, and the threat of "false domestic abuse claims" to the police as reasons for the divorce. On February 15, 2007 Joumana Kidd filed a counterclaim for divorce,[22] claiming that the NBA star-among countless instances of abuse-"broke her rib and damaged her hearing by smashing her head into the console of a car"."
@rayallen0 In 2001 he was arrested, and pled guilty to beating her and had to attend anger management. And then he has the balls to cite "false domestic abuse claims"?
@ChandlerPol I don't trust ANYTHING Charley Rosen says. I mean he talks shit about Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, PISTOL PETE, George Gervin, and Walt Bellamy. It's easy to criticize, tough to perform. In Game 4 of those Finals, when Payton guarded him most of the game, Jordan had his lowest scoring in a Finals game EVER. Jordan was visibily frustrated when Payton guarded him, which you can see in the footage. You can't be a 9x All-Defensive First Team on just hype. I think he deserved it.
@rayallen0 Do you really think his wife is SO creative as to say her hearing was damaged by him smashing her head through the car? And his record speaks for itself. Once a guy beats his wife, he's probably not going to change. That doesn't negate the fact that he DID beat his wife. I consider Kidd a top 10 PG. He's a great player and from my hometown. Great player, and he's a great guy within the NBA. But you'd have to really love him to be able to see past his personal actions and forgive him.
@gamoto96 "Half of Fame"? A) Kidd isn't in the Hall of Fame yet, although he will be as soon as he's eligible (five years following his retirement). B) What kind of a person he may or may not be will not constitute a reason why he makes the Hall of Fame. C) Kidd is intelligent, but his former wife, whom he domestically abused, surely doesn't consider him "an incredible person."
Gary Payton could guard Hakeem Olajuwon? Really? Payton could not defend centers, power forwards, or tall small forwards (which readily existed in that era), get real.
@sumskater999 so sounds like to me she was bringing up the old beatings as those still have weight in a divorce claim. If he quit drinking like it says. I most def wouldn't to much weight on reading a story as compared to meeting the guy. I don't really know much about Kidd other than he was friends with one of my all time fav players Payton. Is a terrible rapper and was probs the best PG i've ever seen play live (if we aren't counting Iverson) with Payton right behind. only 19 for the record.
![BRASIL vs. PERÚ [4-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 10](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tbyOJKXfQnI/mqdefault.jpg)
one of the best PGs in nba history!
idgaf what anybody says he did a great job coaching Brooklyn.
this is one of my fav. nba player
"I said get that stuff out of here. But I didnt say stuff" lol
He's so humble
@ChandlerPol You see the same thing with Kobe Bryant. Even Jordan had playoff games where he would shoot well under 40%, and yet they still won so many rings. I think that their mere presence allows their teammates to elevate their game, and play with the same kind of heart those guys played with after watching the amazing things they did on the court.
I luv this dude ! My favorite PG of all time ! Next to Magic of course !
Kidd and Payton are my two fav PGs of all time
I'm glad that both of you guys each got a ring in the end! Goals accomplished I guess?
One more thing, you're one of my top 5 PGs of all-time, easily:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. John Stockton
5. Jason Kidd
tbh I can't choose between the bottom 3, it depends on my feeling each different day :)
Payton is way better than Kidd.
Kidd is not even better than Kevin Johnson
Johnny Johns Payton was better defensively and scoring but that was it. Kidd was one of the top 3 rebounders of all time from the point guard position, he was a far better passer than Payton, he was a better 3 point and free throw shooter and he turned decent players in to good players. Look at how mediocre his team was in New Jersey and he took them to back to back finals. The year before Kidd got there, they had an all star in Marbury. After they got Kidd they went from 26 to 52 wins. To say that Kevin Johnson is better all time than Kidd is a joke. Maybe in terms of scoring, but that's it. The most underrated thing about Kidd is that he went to back to back finals. Kidd never played with another all star before Kenyon Martin made one an all star team in '04. Payton went to one finals in his prime, and he had a great power forward, a very good team around him and one of the greatest coaches ever coaching him. Kidd went to two finals in his prime with a mediocre team, a good offensive power forward and Byron Scott as his coach. Payton played on better teams and was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Furthermore, Kidd was more valuable and contributed more to Dallas in 2011 than Gary Payton did to Miami in 2006. Defensively, sure, he is better than Kidd, but Kidd was a fantastic defender. Other than that, Kidd blows Payton out in about everything else. KJ isn't even close to Kidd.
great player!! so happy he got into half of fame what an incredible person!
Both Bay Area legends-thanks for the post!!
Jkidd is the reason why I always wore #5 on my jersey until I retired
Kidd is so humble
Great stuff from Kidd. Gary is pure Oaktown.
kidd, is going to be in the hall of fame
i was thrilled when the news came out that Gary payton will mentor and develop damian lillard's defense. Payton and Kidd are both from bay area where another great PG in the making is emerging in damian lillard. GP is really good he help Kidd and now he will help lillard. GP even said that lillard is bigger than them him and kidd that lillard can surpass them both. great to know bay area boys helping each other.
Yusef howd this comment go for ya. Lillard still can’t guard his shadow lol
the 5 greatest pg's ever (in my opinion)
1. magic
2. isiah thomas
3. jason kidd
4. john stockton
5. gary payton
July 23, 1968 (age 44) born in Oakland, California--google my good sir--but yes he did play for the Sonics and go to college in the NorthWest, but he got his game from Oakland!! Even Shaq and Webber talk about it on the TNT show now and again when they bring up Payton-also there is a Too $hort song that mentions Payton "Just another day" talking about after the game at Golden State, they went to his house and how NBA jams turned em out!! haha, NBA Jams is still a great game
Jason Kidd: So genuine he apologises for trash talk.
@ChandlerPol Those facts speak to two issues:
A) For all the talk of how Iverson carried a supposedly mediocre supporting cast, the defensive and rebounding role players around him bailed Iverson out about as much as he bailed them out. Specifically, they suppressed the opposition, gained extra possessions, and cushioned the liability of Iverson's inefficiency.
hahah nice. Gary was awessome. Kidd learned from the best.
J Kidd is the nicest person in NBA
A Pure point guard
My favorite point guard. . . .
When going up against one another, in 41 head-to-head regular season matches, Kidd leads Payton with 22 wins to 19 losses. His overall stat line is also superior: 14.3 points, 6.8 rebounds and 10.1 assists to Payton’s 17.6 points, 4.7 rebounds and 6.2 assists. Please son.
wow he learne dfrom the freat glove! didnt know that cool!
@sumskater999 ... sure, the Sixers probably wouldn't have won a single playoff series that year without Iverson, but Philadelphia also won playoff games that spring where he shot 11-28 from the field, 10-31, 8-27, 13-35, 10-32, and 5-27. In that last game in the Eastern Conference Finals versus Milwaukee, Iverson scored 15 points on 27 field goal attempts and the Sixers still won! During one six-game stretch in those playoffs, Iverson shot 47-171 (27.49%) and Philadelphia somehow went 4-2!
@ChandlerPol They're great too, but I think it can be debatable as to Kidd being right up there with them.
Magic - Oscar - Stockton - Cousy - Isiah and then comes the rest like Kidd, Payton, Hardaway. Keep that in mind, kids.
Mr. Entringer You forgot Oscar Robertson, Pistol Pete ,Calvin Murphy and Jerry West..
I've never seen more different personalities on the court.
@sumskater999 Regardless, my point was about the Defensive Player of the Year Award in 1996. The chances that even an outstanding defensive point guard constituted the most effective defender in a league with exceptional defensive forwards such as Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman and tremendous defensive centers like Mutombo, Mourning, Olajuwon, and David Robinson is dubious at best. To see Defensive Adjusted Plus-Minus data for those years would be very intriguing.
@sumskater999 That's an intriguing question, actually. People will probably view Iverson as a top ten shooting guard because of his points and awards, but his real level of effectiveness is debatable. Indeed, the list of teams that have improved following his departure is now quite long.
Good story
@sumskater999 I concur that Payton constituted an outstanding defensive guard, one of the best in the NBA for many years and worthy of a bunch of All-Defensive selections. I don't know if he deserved nine All-Defensive First Team spots, though; at some point, these honors usually become a matter of precedent and reputation as much as anything. For instance, was Payton really still one of the NBA's two best defensive guards at age thirty-three?
Yes, he is. Name me 3 guards who you think were better defensively at this time than Payton. Kobe was good but not exactly elite yet.
@ChandlerPol I would say that he was. In that 2001-02 season, I think he was still playing better defense than a guard like Kobe Bryant, who is also a great defensive player. By the time he got to the Lakers, he had obviously lost some of his fight.
@sumskater999 Iverson played the 1 & 2 so he should be in the convo if we are gna mention Payton & Kidd.
damn he's modest
@ChandlerPol B) The Eastern Conference, as would be the case the next two years when Kidd led the Nets to the Finals, proved second-rate, maybe even third-rate. Iverson's '01 Sixers and Kidd's '02 and '03 Nets won the East, but at best, they probably would have fallen in the First Round in the West.
@sumskater999 Rosen knows the game; in this case, he's not suggesting that those players weren't good, but that they prove overrated. While his criticism may be too severe at times, the gist of his comments often makes sense.
@rayallen0 True. I'd consider him a 2, just because he was more of a scorer than a play-maker. But he's definitely a top 10 shooting guard.
@ChandlerPol Well it's a lot easier for bigs to be great defenders. I think Payton made a HUGE defensive impact as a PG. He would close guys out and make it almost impossible to get a good shot off or even a solid pass, which ruins the whole flow of the other team since the PG is the play-maker. I think Pippen totally deserved one, because he would close out a whole team single-handedly, but he also camped in the paint a lot. I think it's a healthy debate, but Payton was right up there.
GP is about the 6th best PG of anytime and that's debatable. Kidd is better
5x all NBA defense
2 all time Assists
3 all time steals
3 all time in 3's made
10 in all time player efficiency rating
967% chance of going to the HOF GP 833%
I heard from a great coach one day a great big man will beat a great smaller man everyday of the week 2x on Sunday. Kidd 6'4 215 GP 6' 180.
Kidd is being humble he was referring to when he was 13 and GP was 18. Kidd was playing against men as a teenager.
@sumskater999 Yeah, but games where Jordan shot under 40% proved fairly rare and he represented a better all-around player than Iverson, so he could help his team win in more ways. Of course, Iverson also constituted a skilled passer, but one could argue that he was more of a black hole, that he didn't play within the flow like Jordan. For the record, Iverson actually shot below .390 (.389) in the 2001 playoffs (22 games), so he proved very inefficient on average.
@sumskater999 The debate may be a fair one, but while they all could create on a high level, Kidd wasn't a consistently effective scorer like K. Johnson, Nash, and Archibald. Of course, Kidd offered much more defensively than Nash and probably Archibald.
LMAO at 0:53
@sumskater999 Payton may have been better than Kidd (they possessed different strengths with a similar net value), but have you read Charley Rosen's comments about Payton's supposed great defense on Jordan? Payton didn't even guard Jordan for most of the '96 Finals and he probably received that Defensive Player of the Year Award on hype and reputation as much as anything. Do you really think that he constituted a better defender that year than Pippen, Mutombo, Mourning, Olajuwon, et al.?
Oakland's finest
@sumskater999
I'll view Game Four of the 1996 Finals on RUclips at some point, although one game can obviously be something of an aberration.
Jason Kidd come back
To New York make those babies
Swing like Sinatra
#haikumovement #haiku
@sumskater999 I'd add Kevin Johnson, Steve Nash, and Nate Archibald to that list.
the glove should be a coach he has the magic touch when it comes to making players better... just ask jeremy lin!!
@ChandlerPol Well I'm willing to BET the 76ers wouldn't have made it to the NBA Finals in 2001 without him. Yes, they had Mutombo, but without Iverson they probably wouldn't even have made the Conference Finals.
Interestingly, most of the all-time greats who haven't won championships have at least led a team to the NBA Finals. Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, etc. So I think Iverson is right up there.
@rayallen0 I'd actually take Payton over Kidd, just because of his INCREDIBLE defense. I mean he's the ONLY true point guard in NBA history to win Defensive Player of the Year, an award usually reserved for big men who can block and rebound. The man could defend Michael Jordan better than anybody in the league, and was a greater scoring point guard as well. I think Kidd's strengths are in his 3, and creating space for his teammates, but he's almost unselfish to a fault sometimes.
@gamoto96 loooooooooool
PEACE
lol Why just cause you found his RUclips page? Kidd been a gangster since 92. LMAO
Y'all who think he's the best point guard ever, I just got a few names for you.
Magic Johnson. Oscar Robertson. Gary Payton. Bob Cousy. John Stockton. Isiah Thomas. End of story.
@sumskater999 "On January 9, 2007, Jason Kidd filed for divorce against his wife, citing "extreme cruelty" during their relationship. Kidd contended intense jealousy, paranoia, and the threat of "false domestic abuse claims" to the police as reasons for the divorce. On February 15, 2007 Joumana Kidd filed a counterclaim for divorce,[22] claiming that the NBA star-among countless instances of abuse-"broke her rib and damaged her hearing by smashing her head into the console of a car"."
@rayallen0 In 2001 he was arrested, and pled guilty to beating her and had to attend anger management. And then he has the balls to cite "false domestic abuse claims"?
Lmao, he said he forgot who he was playing.
@ChandlerPol I don't trust ANYTHING Charley Rosen says. I mean he talks shit about Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, PISTOL PETE, George Gervin, and Walt Bellamy. It's easy to criticize, tough to perform.
In Game 4 of those Finals, when Payton guarded him most of the game, Jordan had his lowest scoring in a Finals game EVER. Jordan was visibily frustrated when Payton guarded him, which you can see in the footage.
You can't be a 9x All-Defensive First Team on just hype. I think he deserved it.
@rayallen0 Do you really think his wife is SO creative as to say her hearing was damaged by him smashing her head through the car? And his record speaks for itself. Once a guy beats his wife, he's probably not going to change. That doesn't negate the fact that he DID beat his wife.
I consider Kidd a top 10 PG. He's a great player and from my hometown. Great player, and he's a great guy within the NBA. But you'd have to really love him to be able to see past his personal actions and forgive him.
my favourite is john stockton ;]
@gamoto96 "Half of Fame"?
A) Kidd isn't in the Hall of Fame yet, although he will be as soon as he's eligible (five years following his retirement).
B) What kind of a person he may or may not be will not constitute a reason why he makes the Hall of Fame.
C) Kidd is intelligent, but his former wife, whom he domestically abused, surely doesn't consider him "an incredible person."
@gamoto96 You know he beat his wife. Still an incredible person?
How can you not have Isiah there? 2 rings
tony parker haha
Get that "stuff" outta here.....What the hell you say to me.....Im sorry :) bahaha
@Agen7Smith lmao you went here to complain..
@retrotw
WTF ever...
He OWNED Kidd EVERYTIME they squared off. U need to go check your facts kid..
Gary Payton could guard Hakeem Olajuwon? Really? Payton could not defend centers, power forwards, or tall small forwards (which readily existed in that era), get real.
@sumskater999 so sounds like to me she was bringing up the old beatings as those still have weight in a divorce claim. If he quit drinking like it says. I most def wouldn't to much weight on reading a story as compared to meeting the guy. I don't really know much about Kidd other than he was friends with one of my all time fav players Payton. Is a terrible rapper and was probs the best PG i've ever seen play live (if we aren't counting Iverson) with Payton right behind. only 19 for the record.
nope oakland i think
Dafuq? Payton is from the North West.