Do You Need A Subwoofer?
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2024
- Do You Need A Subwoofer?
This was a huge question that we had in last weeks FAQ Friday and as luck would have it I recently filmed a video at Nick Sowden’s Studio La Barca and took time to try out the new Kali Audio WS-6.2 Subwoofer, this demo raised the basic question for me, do we actually need Sub Woofers? If so, who needs them? For all genres or just some?
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Do You Need A Subwoofer? What Do You Think?
This was a huge question that we had in last weeks FAQ Friday and as luck would have it I recently filmed a video at Nick Sowden’s Studio La Barca and took time to try out the new Kali Audio WS-6.2 Subwoofer, this demo raised the basic question for me, do we actually need Sub Woofers? If so, who needs them? For all genres or just some?
➡➡ Enter the Giveaway Here!: producelikeapro.com/blog/do-you-need-a-subwoofer/
Have you ever tried the Subpac pro ? One of my teacher did buy one (when I was in school) and it is absolutely fantastic to mix with it. We don't "hear" subs with it, we FEEL it and mix with the vibration of the pack. However, great video and the Kali speaker is quite impressive. Have a marvelous 2024.
I don't do much thumping low end stuff. When I have used a sub I've enjoyed what it brings though
I"m on the fence here. I get how it adds to the feel but how does that reference to the end listener and isn't that your target? I think that if you wanted to get killer playback sound in the studio,, you wouldn't be using flat sounding speakers.You'd be using speakers that have exaggerated frequencies like regular home speakers have.
I think before anyone considers a sub they should spend their money treating their room correctly for low frequency pressure. Not a bunch of insulation thrown in the corner but actual low frequency treatment. Look into diaphragmatic bass absorption over the traditional bass trap concept that, from experience, aren’t very effective. What most new folks considering a sub don’t realize is that most of the studios featured in these videos have treatment built into the walls or the engineer has been mixing in the room they are in for over a decade and know their room intimately (or both). Throwing a sub into a room without low frequency treatment will impede your ability to mix efficiently. Don’t get me wrong, you can still muddle your way through a mix without it but why make it hard on yourself. Low frequency treatment 1st new sub 2nd
Thanks for sharing@@sixstringalliance4417
I have a pair of IN-5's strapped to the WS-6.2 in my new treated mixing room and it sounds wonderful! A 4-way system for £1500! Incredible value for money! The biggest difference for me was the improved stereo image, almost 3D! 😎
That's wonderful to hear! Thanks for sharing!
I use a subwoofer the same as id check on tiny speakers, to see if the mix translates across, id never mix with one on, but I like to turn one on end of mix to see what frequencies in the low end retain clarity or become too flubby, as I do like personally sometimes mixing with headphones at night I am fitting a thumper transducer under my studio seat to replace a sub thumping so at least it psycho-acoustically feels loud at night when the cans are on. haha but I think subs have a place, you can read off an FTA but to hear or feel a sub notes resonance or decay can make all the difference, and Ive already blown one driver in my monitor due to an inaudible super low kick ,
Thanks ever so much for sharing! I really; appreciate the insight!
Great video. The Kali stuff is top notch for the price point. There's more and more tech in these new speakers and it's fabulous. Thanks very much
Thanks ever so much Joey!
Check out the Kali SW WS-6.2 Dual 6.5-inch Powered Subwoofer: sweetwater.sjv.io/EKK612
Got the Kali 6.2 sub to go with my IN-5s before the holidays, feelt like I found a missing part of my soul : D
Very cool! Thanks for sharing!
So happy you've found your soul. :)
Been using a sub with my Yamaha HS-5 speakers for years. It really helps to define the low end!
Thanks ever so much for sharing Larry!
May I know which sub have you paired please ?
@@saiprasad8078 It's a Pioneer 8" sub I got for $85 at Newegg.
Good question!@@saiprasad8078 I want to know too!
No, but it'll even out the bass response int eh listening position by removing power alley effect and the fact that the low frequencies are coming from two separate sources in phase, thus the listening distance affects what frequencies get cancelled and what gets boosted and the effect is very uneven bass response int eh listening position and in the room.
Thus one should ALWAYS have a ingle subwoofer as a point source for stuff
Thanks ever so much for sharing!
Enjoyed as always. As i happen to be a bit of a sub junky for 30 years now i must say that in my experience
1) There can be a HUGE HUGE (Trump) difference in control and quality of the reproduction between subs. People somehow tend to underestimate how notoriously hard it is to produce and reproduce heavy bass content. For example there are Impulse compensated subwoofers (two opposing woofers) that result in a mechanical-vibrational cancellation which leads in much much less enclosure vibrations and adds a lot to the precision.
2) To your question at 16:50 „Do you NEED a subwoofer?“
i would personally say YOU A_BSO_LU_TE_LY NEED A SUB. „Why?“ one might ask.
First:
Because taking in account that the vast majority of people do not have the luxury of a well treated space , it is much easier to tune a system with two satellites with a subwoofer (or even better two subwoofers) to a room cause it is more flexible this way and also it is (in my opinion) much easier
to hide the mass of the system as it is discreet parts and the biggest one is usually out of sight and out of the eyeline which (again , my personal opinion) is a nice side effect of a Sat-Sub system.
Second:
Well,,, because when you asked this Question you completely disregarded any heavy bass intended production, which is a lot of music actually and it is becoming more and more. Random example , take a well produced relatively contemporary DnB track and listen once without and then with subwoofer and let me know which one you liked the best.
Subwoofers are partly also basically one of the reasons why this bass heavy music exists in the first place and the bass content has grown a lot in the last 20 years. Basically begining of 2000 with the Dubstep , DnB and some HipHop and later with Trap etc etc until today imho was a big jump in "mix balance shift towards the low end as an equal star of the show“ .
However if you are adamantly sure you are only going to use the speakers for guitar ballads, vocals and music styles that dont have deepest low end content then yes i agree, a sub is nice to have but not essential
I personally in my own music (which is none of the mentioned genres) might start from a very deep bass and start building my mix upwards from there.
But as i stated, this is my sole opinion. Not trying to convince anyone. You just asked for opinions if i got it right.
Peace Warren and keep doing what you do.
Much love and Health i wish for all of us
Excellent video! Do I need a sub? Maybe? This one is very well priced and a great affordbale option!
Thanks ever so much for sharing!
A video on hooking up subwoofers effectively could be cool. Lfe is something new to me and setting things up so a subwoofer isn't too loud could be cool. Been considering a sub but don't want to introduce something that could effect my mixes if improperly set up.
Very cool idea!
Last year I got myself the Neumann 750 DSP with the MA1 Mic to complement my 310‘s … sounds really great and even - wouldn’t want to work without it anymore
Thanks ever so much for sharing! I appreciate the insight!
wow! so I just got halfway through the video and had to stop and share the fact that I just finished re-foaming a driver for a sub and had began reinstalling it under the desk.. I thought it was rather coincidental that you guys had shared this video so I put it on of course. well I had to pause because I wanted to demo my re-foaming job... I made dinner and just got back in to resume this video to see you guys reference the same m83 song I did today AS WELL as the same war on drugs song.... what the WHAT??.. im going to resume this video now 🤣🤣
Haha you obviously have great taste! Haha
Great info, thanks gents
Thanks ever so much!
I mix with a sub 24/7 But i'm a old FOH! So i need the extra weight. I think it would help folks understand how things work in the lows. You cant clean up what ya don't hear / feel.
Thanks for sharing!
Short answer : yes. As more Subs you setup up, as cleaner you get your Bass Response in the room. But its a lot of DSP Work and took some space.
I'm only a ,,listener,, not producer, but i use also studiomonitors for listening (+Subs) an i will never want to hear without a sub (Neumann Gear). Its not to have more lowend. Its about to avoid room modes and get the best and clean sounding Bass with experimenting with positioning & dsp setup for the sweet spot. When youve a room modes between 20-150 Hz, a stereo pair of speakers and youve an fixed listening Position you cant do as much. With Subs you get the control over it. The best way is to install a Bass Array (like the home cinema guys) like a SBA or DBA (Single & Double Bass Arrays) but you need a lot of DSP work to set everything up and it took some space. Genelec has also some kind of ,, Bass Array,, with their w371 to avoid the biggest lowend problems without packing your room full of absorption material or expensive tuned membrane traps. But 9K € for one (you will def need 2x) is nearly 5 times the price wich would costs to build an Array solution.
You dont even need high quality drivers for it. An Double Bass Array with 4x Subs DSPs, Amps, Cables, 12" Drivers, 50-60 Liter Cabinets will costs arround 3-4K€. The main ,problem, is the setup, its not Plug & Play. When you want that you need to buy something like the genelecs but of course they want you to pay for all that DSP Work etc.
Even when i would had an professionell fully treated room i would install an Array or subwoofer solution. You clearly hear when the main speaker can ,,breathe,, when they dont need to play in the lowned
Those IN5s sounded sweet
They are pretty awesome!
I don't use a sub anymore because the new speakers I built get down to 18 hz in room.
Great! Tell us about your speakers?
But if you know anything about acoustics, you realize that you have a power alley effect where the low frequencies are coming from two equally spaced and distanced source, thus it creates very VERY uneven bass response at the listening position REGARDLESS of your acoustic treatment.
For low frequencies, you want point source.
Google for "power alley" regarding sub-woofers and low frequencies.
Thanks ever so much for sharing!@@Mtaalas
@@Producelikeapro I built them myself. They are 4 way active speakers. Two Dayton RSS210HO woofers per side with two 12" passive radiators, a 6.5" Purifi mid from 200 hz to 1khz, a Tang Band 2" soft dome from 1khz to 4khz and a Belisma Buryllium tweeter. Powered by John Curl Parasound amps and a Nelson Pass Adcom amp on the tweeter. Distortion is below 1% at 105 db/ 1 meter from 30 hz - 20khz. Below 3% down to 23 hz. Tuned to 31 hz but the room helps it get to 18 hz - 3 db. Frequency response at the listening position is +/- 1.5 db from 23hz- 20khz. I can't think of anything that would be better.
Studio Headphones I say would be necessary with monitors, as far as a subwoofer someone could get away without it. I keep my sub at a very low volume, it's more to feel/hear how the air is moving through the sub under my studio desk.
YES! You need a subwoofer. That low is so exciting.
Thanks for sharing!
This guys has a great taste in music
Thanks ever so much
Interesting discussion Warren because mastering lowend is the bane of my existence. What I am struggling with is the lowend sounds perfect in two pairs of headphones, a stereo pair of Google home speakers and my main monitors, yet does not always translate to my truck stereo test. Of course I'm high passing as taught. I wonder is my car speakers as they are JBLs and well over hyped in bottom. Admittedly since joining the academy it takes me less revisions to get it correctly, but my goal is to need no revisions. So I wonder should my next move be to grab a cheap sub and or swap out my car speakers? Out of curiosity are you still using a sub for mixing?
Hey Warren, it would be great if you can please use a good stereo mic to record these type of videos as the lav mic doesn't give us enough bandwidth and resolution to hear what we'd love to hear.
Stay tuned! Working on it! Thanks ever so much!
Very interesting video! It sounds like a good idea to use speakers both with and without subwoofer, to ensure that the mix sounds great in both situations.
I noticed you pressing a single button (or footswitch) to disable/enable the sub. Does this button also change the cross-over? As in: with the subwoofer off, were the lows (that the sub would normally take care of) sent to the speakers? This looks ideal to enable quick switching between the two setups (with my current setup it's quite inefficient disabling the subwoofer and the crossover).
Are there holes in the desk (cause i was thinking about that to avoid desk reflexion)? I am pretty happy with my aps sub 10 . i really like composing and listening with it...but i was afraid to mix with it plus it introduces phase cancellation with my speaker the way i used it, now that i tweak it with more with filtering and eqing i might try to mix again with it. A quick tip on cubase if the sub crossover filtering is not enough and you can have a separate physical output for the sub=> buy metaplugin or something equivalent use it on control room ( to eq , rotate the phase etc of the sub)
Thanks ever so much for sharing! I';ll have to check out the desk when I'm back there!
I just replay the video @0:40 we see the holes, i really like to know where to buy that kind of desk.
I've wanted to ask about UNF in mixing, it is used in high end audio to remove the room reflections without having room treatment. Is it an option for people who cannot afford room treatment
Room Treatment is ALWAYS a great thing to do! However, the UNF does work great as it's VERY focussed, so there's very little room reflections!
The Kali sounds good, but for 100€ more I can get a Focal Sub One, which would better match my Focal Shape Twins. On that note, I´m not sure I really need a sub with the Focal Shape Twin´s?! They have a LOT of bass. What do you think, you had them in your studio for a while. Your video was actually the final video I saw that convinced me to buy the Focal Shape Twins. :)
I have a PreSonus T10, but still don't know how to merge it to my Adam A8X(overlapping in low freqs). But I do like its pedal switch, very convenient.
Thanks ever so much for sharing!
What subs (when properly integrated into the main 2-CH speaker) is that room dimensionality that the lower registers can offer. Two subs, even mo'better.
Using a pair of Iloud MSM's, about 1-2 m from listening position. Great speakers. Cutoff set to 40 Hz. When listening or monitoring at normal levels, a subwoofer really isn't needed IMO. In fact, it could create more problems then it solves.
Is it safe to say most subs can do the job not necessarily the expensive ones
The Kali one is really quite cheap as far as subs go
Yes, the Kali is quite affordable!
Thence I sued for years with my Yamaha NS10's was around $119! It was the stock home theatre one that Yamaha made!
Dave once claimed he can mix 40 cycles on his ns10s. Well maybe he can, but I sure can’t!
Which Dave? Thanks
Pensado
Question. Wouldn't it be better to have a 2 separate subs with positioning below each main L and R speaker?
GREAT episode. Knowledge matters. For a long time I thought a subwoofer was a Chihuahua.
Haha genius! Like a 'metronome' is a small frenchman who lives underground
@@Producelikeapro Yes, Mr H. Exactly. Love how you enjoy. Exult before Him.
Great demo. Using an Adam Audio 2.1 system. My sub went back for maintenance and I really miss it. Definitely gotta have a sub for me. 🎧🎵🎹
Thanks ever so much for sharing
I use a pair of Kali L6s and for comparison, a pair of old Edirol MA-15Ds. My room is very small and space is limited. I'm still not convinced that I need a sub woofer. Especially when you know that sadly, most people are not listening to music on real speakers. They us crappy ear buds or headphones. When I play back my own music on ear buds, it lacks depth, on decent headphones, it sounds rich and full. Obviously I need 2 mixes. One for people with real gear and one for the sad losers that don''t. My bad! Sorry, I'm a 68 year old guy with bad attitude.
Thanks for your comment Jeremy! Ear buds are very capable of producing low lows! Mixing in full range of course will give you the ability to have something great for all situations!
Subwoofers just create a vague location of bass in the room. I prefer a pair of three way speakers so the low end location in the sound field is clear.
Do you need a subwoofer? I'm leaning towards YES if you're a pro mixer/engineer/producer/whatever. We never ask if we need tweeters because they're common place. However when i do purchase a sub it'll be a part of a set. Bought altogether and designed specifically that way. Im not even gonna try to buy a good pair of studio speakers AND a separate sub.
For me it has always just come down to: Is there any reason for me NOT to have one? And I haven't found a good reason why I _shouldn't_ have one, so I might as well.
I guess the answer is Yes!
Haha indeed! Or maybe? Haha Depends on your genre!
😊🖐🏻
Thanks ever so much!
Did you say
Best Buy?
Did I? haha
today's engineers extending low end range for 14 years kids that then listen by a 5 millimeters speakers into their phones 😅
Indeed, however Ear Buds are what most people listen on, Ear Buds and/or headphones. The frequency response goes super low.
@@Producelikeapro yes a nice headphones is supposed to be the way, otherwise the physics laws are what they are, and you can't really listen a 45hz full wave on an half cm speaker...
Warren and talking bout the Kali IN-5 vs IN-8, do you think the bigger model worth the cost of supposed extended low end, or for a normal 5x4 meters treated room is enough the smaller model ?
@@fausto_colella sealed insert earphones can go quite low, since they only need to drive the volume of air in your ear canal. there is a limit, though, as audio perception moves from eardrum / ossicles to bone conduction at lower frequencies. probably different for everybody since ear canal geometries vary widely between individuals, and some people can't fit sealed inserts.
@@poofygoof yes i agree with that, you know... many times you think that bass is ok in your headphones then is not really true in the "air", cause a bass E note at 41Hz won't never give you the physical perception of what happens when in the open air. I think todays consumer listening music systems are way to poor compared to the "hi-fi" era.
Every time i made a listening with my big 4way made in usa Infinity speakers, everyone's face turned into the same way: shit where is all that i'm hearing now when i use my headphones ? 😅
The question can be answered with another question: do you have neighbors or family members you dont want to annoy?
Haha indeed
Do You Need A Subwoofer? Why would you not? Do you need tweeters?
haha thanks!
Subwoofers turn the schnizzel out 😅
Haha indeed!
Good stuff. Ears
Marvellous!
No I really don’t think so, most people aren’t listening on high end music systems so there’s no real point.
Indeed, however best to control low end for car stereos, movie theatres (getting your music into film is lucrative) and most importantly headphones with now all seem to have extended low end
@@Producelikeapro I'd like great low-end on the chance that it's played at a well-tuned club or event / festival.
Why so much low end when on real instruments there's not so much subbass anyway? Syths, EDM and trap? Ok. But it's synthetic music. With real instruments? Really need "flat to 30hZ"? And what about gear that need to reproduce it? Most of that gear can't go down to 40hZ not mention lower. I tested many "home audio" speakers and on most there's absolutely nothing below 30-35hZ. Most good flat headphones (except bass boosted ones which have weak mids and not so fine treble) are good to maybe 50hZ. Most of them get so much distortions below 50... I dunno. But I think that loudness makes more bass anyway than just leaving so much sub thing in the mix. For me 30-40Hz is a max usable. Flat to min 60.Below I don't see any point...
Did you take some measurements during the process of tuning the subwoofer or you just threw it under the desk in the worst possible spot and call it a day?
Love Sensation original...no sub. Today, The idolatry of the lowest 😢 LOW. God protect you from yourselves+++
Sub don't add anything, it just give back the frequency your speakers can't reproduce. Funny comment tho
Impressed you understood the comment! I didn't haha@@DarkTrapStudio
Not sure what that means? Ha
@@Producelikeapro I think he is nostalgic about past music and how it was tipicly listened, and some of the music today indeed make weird things with bass, frequency can make the body do anything at the right amplitude/frequency, like popping at 11 herz so yes It can be as simple as ABC or as deep as quantic science.
@@Producelikeapro Real Life Example : Travis Scott played for 7 hours straight Sub frequencies at Astroworld leaving people nauseating.
Hey Warren! Could you do an analysis on Manson's 'Antichrist Superstar' album's guitars? They sound so unique but for the life of me I'm unable to find an explanation on how to emulate their tone.