I added a great sub to my Focal 3 way speakers. It was not just to extend the low and but to be able to playback at higher volume. Lots of clients like to listen very very loud. Adding a sub protected my Focal SM9Bs. I tuned the sub and the crossovers so that it sounds great in my ok treated room. I have so much more headroom now and can make it super loud without risking to break my speakers or get distortion. It was a great decision.
All great reasons to get a sub! Yes, you can increase the potential clean output of the system by adding on more power while taxing each of the speakers less. Great addition, thanks.
cant mix what you cant hear.. Ever finished a mix that sounds great in the studio and headphones but then listen to it in the car and its too boomy or not enough bass? if you cant hear under 50hz on your monitors get a sub and turn it on and off during the mixing process,, you will save time
I have sometimes the same problem - and now I am listening my mixes on several types of speakers not only on studio monitors, but also on woox subowoofer phillips to get it right... I was overcompenansating for bass in the past. Maybe I will buy a sub soon to get it even more under the control.
so true, I cranked up the volume on a low sine I couldn't hear that well when mixing on my laptop. Sounded perfect, went to the car for a test and it overpowered my entire track. So frustrating lol. And ive come to notice now that my KRK5´s doesn't go below 50 hz, and when I looked at my sub bass line it was well below that with some notes in the 30-40hz range.
Yep, this is pretty much how I got here. My current track sounds amazing on my monitors but absolute dogshit on a normal sound system. I finally got around to getting a meter and sure enough lots of stuff happening right around 50hz. Just added the sub today and remixing
Even if your room is untreated, a sub can be useful. Imagine mixing a flute on a sub. You need some idea of what's going on. If you have frequencies in 40 to 60 hertz and you're mixing on 3.5" speakers you will never hear it, ever. Even if it's just for quickly referencing the low end in my opinion.
Great answers to all my questions! Currently adding a Yamaha HS8S to my room in order to take load off of my Focal Alpha 50s. I put a lot of stress on them, especially when doing playback at high volumes and getting a sub will definitely protect my investment! 5" isn't a lot of leg room for the bass and mids, and I love my Focals. Can't risk having the drivers go out when a sub could handle so much more of the load. Thanks again for the great video!
Blowing my mind that adding a sub brings out my mids too. But I just added the KRK S8.4 to my Rokit 5" G4s today (probably why this video popped up) and I'm hearing it right now. The idea that the woofer can now do what it's supposed to instead of getting distracted by "low end excursions"...simple common sense that never occurred to me without this nudge. Grateful, Liked & Subscribed!
@@pritishgandhi6535 Nothing but improvements. Wouldn't go back. My one complaint is, even after calibrating the speakers using their app, I'm not sure the sub volume relative to the monitors is set correctly. The amount of bass I hear in my mixes varies between sound systems more than I'd like and I suspect it's to do with that setting. My acoustics are also less than ideal, especially for bass frequencies, as I'm forced into a corner desk, so it may be impossible to get that setting correct in my case.
We extended ADAM S3-Vs each on a Sub12 and to be honest, this was a wonderful decision. Room is obviously fully treated and Trinnov does the rest. The low end driver of the S3-Vs performs like two times as good as before by feeding anything below 65 Hz to the subs and they themselves are pretty relaxed due to the narrow band they reproduce. Driver alignment / timing was not an issue at all, Trinnov didn't have to do a lot there, even though the setup now looks more like a line array, it still performs closer to a point source. In fact, adding the subs didn't change a lot at all. Only thing we had to take care of, was a little phaseshift at the crossover point - no big deal for Trinnov.
I create dub/deep techno. I need to monitor sub. However, I added a sub and because my room is crap (a square) I don’t get the sub I need. Just a mess of goop in the room corners. So I just use Sonarworks for my headphones and that helped me a lot.
Killing it with these videos lately! I'm in the middle of a build and you're touching on everything I need to know about. Some of what I knew, and some of what I had no clue about. You're the man 💪🏼
This is very accurate. In car audio, people always ask what speakers they can get to make their car sound better. My first response is to get an amp and subwoofer. Usually I hear "but I don't want to have one of those cars". Totally wrong. You want to fill out the bottom end, you can adjust the level of that and ideally have it blend perfectly, not be a slamming bass machine. When crossed over around 80Hz, you take all of the pressure off of the mids and allow them to play more accurately. So much so, that you can still use your stock speakers. You will get a far larger gain by having solid foundation to your frequencies rather than trying to buy a magic speaker.
Respectfully, as we’re on the topic of budget speakers (KRK etc), I don’t see how choosing 3-way monitors over a sub is an alternative for reaching the frequency response that goes lower than the average FR in monitors (45hz+). A sub allows you to hear below 45hz, because it’s built for that and this is illustrated in the spec sheets. The same can’t be said for monitors, whether they’re 2-way or 3-way. I remember watching this video in the past and it didn’t exactly give me confidence in this channel, if I’m being completely honest. It’s only the guests that have kept me subscribed to it, e.g. Michael Beuar to name one. I’ve probably butchered the spelling of his surname ha!
I have NS-10’s which have nothing below 100 Hz. I could not get the bass right until I added a sub. I would listen to reference tracks sometimes mixed by CLA and noticed how much bass guitar was in the sub. Then I would match that with my own tracks and it worked out great! So I always make sure my bass guitar is in the sub and a little kick too but one more dominant than the other. But then I click the sub off and make sure I got the bass in the low-mid range as well through the NS-10’s and that I hear everything there. I also have JBL monitors. So when everything sounds good on all three combinations it sounds good everywhere!
That is a good reason to get a sub! There are some very good engineers out there who like to use an NS-10 with a sub that they can use or bypass. It’s either that, or have another monitoring option that goes deeper. I probably see even more of the latter, but either can work well if your room is in reasonably good shape. Seems like you’ve got it covered on both fronts. Keep doing what works and happy mixing!
@mary allen that's great. So you want to make sure that the music sounds good on all combinations. With the sub on. And with the sub off. You got to have the bass in that low mid-range through your smaller monitor speakers. It sounds good there and you click the sub on and it still sounds good then you're really On Target.
I have a question, isnt a sub supposed to be producing low frequencies from a more strategic place in conjunction with your main studio monitor placement and sweet spot? To preserve the stereo image and sound stage , but find a better place for the sub so u can hear it in your sweetspot. I believe a sub is like separating your low driver from the set of studio monitors so you can have more possible placements with which u can hear low frequencies better.
I dont really understand why a 3 way speaker can sound better then 2way speakers. If you can set the cross overs and the phase for the sub and align all the drivers. The only argument i can see for 3 way or multi way speakers is listening position. With a much wider stereo image you get more listening positions. Thats how is see it
Thanks! We’re doing 2/week most weeks now. We may add a 3rd weekly in the new year with more of a Q&A format so stay tuned! If you want even more, check out SonicScoop.com where we post 4-5 times per week!
great video about getting a sub or not :-) I use a pair of Dynaudio acoustics MKII in my little (synth) homestudio. I am VERY satisfied with these speakers (since 3 years now) but i wanted some deeper bass :-) after i looked around what subs could fit (and beeing bit cheaper than a sub from Dynaudio) i decided to order a JBL LSR 310 S. The guy at the shop told me he`s thinking that could be a really good combination. Maybe will write what i will find out :-) Thank you for your great videos. All the best
I am Indian and I am getting from this channel many valuable videos thank you so much owner of this channel l will support this channel 😍😍😌😌😇😇😇😘😘😘😘 please upload in the future also such videos specially about the mixing mastering music and audio production thank you so much
You mention that you shouldn't get a sub in order to get more bass, but I feel like you didn't quite elaborate on why. Are you saying a sub wouldn't give you a more full sounding bass? I have the Adam T5Vs and I feel like I tend to hit the bass a little too hard in most cases, so I was thinking of getting the T10s. Not sure I need to go deeper than 45hz necessarily but I like to feel the bass and that spells trouble when referencing some mixes on my Soundbar with a sub.
Ha! I have 2 KRK 15" subs in my studio. They are wired independently to both speaker sets I have. My KRK 5" have their own sub and my KRK 8" have their own sub. Seems to work good for my set up. If i don't want the sub I can turn it off with the KRK foot switch that comes with the sub.
Thanks for the informative video Justin. The advice chimes with what some others say, but it is particularly well said. I know that you favour 3-way speakers (over adding subwoofers) in your own main studio applications. There don't seem to be many 3-way speakers around, not within my budget. There must be a market for (non-sub) bass speakers which can crossover with the customer's existing little studio monitors, just like subs do, only for capturing the normal bass range better. Is anybody making those? My main application is practising and recording my digital piano. Sometimes I record other instruments too. I don't aspire to owning a pro studio. I have two studio monitors with 5" woofers. I guess they're more like warblers to you. The sound seems good, but I can't believe I'm hearing it all. I welcome any replies from other viewers.
I have a small room that is heavily boosting bass frequencies at 60 hz and 130 hz. This is physics. Even my small Focal Shape 50 have to be high passed at 120 hz using the rear filters to decrease those boosts. So adding a subwoofer in such a room would be total non sense. I suppose 99% of the people watching this video are in the same situation (maybe the boosted F is different but the problem is exactly the same).
I'm in a 23x18ft bonus room (above a garage so with slanted walls). Base traps in every corner and broadband 2" absorption panels on about 70% of the wall surfaces. I"m using a pair of Kali IN-5 three way speakers. I'm facing long ways in the room the rear of my monitors are about 5ft from the wall. My low end feels very underwhelming and overall volume is kinda low unless in direct mixing position. This is a project studio and it's hard for others to vibe when sound levels are just not there. Should I look into bigger monitors or getting a sub or is monitor placement the biggest issue?
@fu J it’s good! This video gives a very precise description of what to expect. I bought the JBL LSR310S. It has a built in crossover. I feed outputs from my Drawmer monitor controller to the sub, and the outputs from the sub feed my near fields. This allows the sub to do the heavy lifting on the low frequencies and the near fields provide the mid and hi frequencies. It’s great
@@mobutterbeats8646 yeah i'm thinking of ordering it too. Prob the B Stock for $310. I had the Monoprice 605999 10" for $200 but realized it's crossover does not actually work! Which is a shame, it has great output. But it just Low Passes to the Sub, doesn't High Pass to the monitors. Someone seriously dropped the ball at Monoprice on that one. I realize when mixing and mastering I need to A/B with the sub and without it, just mixing with the sub will not translate so well to 2.0 systems. It's also nice to have a sub for casual listening or recording DJ sets.
I'm using the same studio monitors I bought 20 years ago - 5" M-Audio Studiophile 5P-5B. For the first several years, my mixes were way too boomy and bass heavy because these monitors have a massive roll off below 100Hz, and I over compensated for the lack of bass when mixing. Then after getting a 2x4 interface, I could run my 3/4 outputs into my desktop Logitech speakers with a subwoofer, and test my mixes that way, especially for bass. Since then, car tests sound great. Yesterday I finally got a the Presonus Eris 8Sub to run with the M-Audios and it's fantastic. Much flatter overall sound than my Logitech speakers (smiley face EQ for sure) and I can actually hear the bass frequencies. Nothing here is treated, it's drywall and a rug and the speakers are less than a foot away from the walls. But I'm getting better at mixing and I'm happy with the results. The nice thing about my Logitech speakers is that I can control the subwoofer level easily, and get a "phone" speaker test, all without exporting the mix. I'll still test on the Logitech but I'll do more mixing on the studio monitors now.
What about subs that must be placed on the floor? how to isolate them to avoid bass waves to travel through the concrete or bricks structure and hearing unwanted sub ressonances or having cancellations? I don't think it's that magical but could something like Sonarworks callibration fix it? Thanks for the video Justin!
I've never seen a reputable pro studio that uses a subwoofer, and I worked at one for 2 years. Still... that doesn't mean you shouldn't get one. Just remember to be honest with yourself. You're not buying a sub because you need to hear all that low end. You're buying it because you want to. The pros don't care about the low end. They know it's there, and they don't need it blasting into their chest lol. I've seen them mix entire rap albums on NS-10s
A negative is that many subs have dsp which adds a bit of latency. May not be noticeable but along with other system latencies may add up to being noticeable. 😅
I know this is old but he means the sub can produce lower frequencies say down to 20hz, where monitors alone only go down to 50hz. So a sub can play deeper and also take the bass workload off the main monitors making them sound better too.
That probably deserves a video all its own! Thanks for the question. We haven't quite covered that in depth here or on SonicScoop.com just yet, believe it or not. Here's the basics: You'll need an SPL meter. You can download one for your phone if you don't have one. An RTA (real time frequency analyzer) can be helpful as well. Then, you'll want to calibrate your speakers and subs to 1. Choose a crossover point. 2. Calibrate your speakers and sub to a common reference level. 3. Make sure they are phase aligned. For #1, One common recommendation is to choose a frequency that is an octave and a half above the lowest frequency your main speakers can reproduce. So, if your main speakers go all the way down to 40Hz you might set your crossover to 60Hz. If your speakers go down to only 60Hz you might pick 90Hz and so on. For #2, you'll want to pick a specific SPL reference level, just slightly lower than your primary listening level. A lot of people will pick anywhere from 75dB to 85dB. Let's say you're aiming for 80dB for this example. First, play some pink noise through just your main monitors and adjust their trim knob until you get a reading of 80dB. Then, play some pink noise through just your sub. Shoot for that same reference level: 80dB. (Or whatever level you picked.) You can "cheat" this a little bit. Some people will go a little louder or quieter on the sub. But idea is that at the end, you should be able to pull up an RTA (real time frequency analyzer) and see a pretty pure looking pink or white noise graph coming back at you in the end, with no bass boost or rolloff. But before you can do that you have to make sure your speakers and sub are in phase. That brings us to #3: To get the speakers and sub in phase, the easiest thing is to play a sine wave at or around the crossover point of the system. Then, move and rotate the subwoofer around until that test tone becomes the *quietest* you can get. Once you get it as quiet and out of phase as you can, flip the polarity switch on your sub to bring all that low end back into phase. Done! Hope that helps! -Justin
Completely disagree with some points in here u can actually sort some of your nulls with a sub with a higher cross over , obviously your room has to treated but 90 percent rooms have nulls because of floor reflection. Carl Tatz phantom focus system has been huge eye opener for me if you follow his technique u can solve lot of low end issues in your room with a sub 😊
Sure, going with a higher crossover point can work too. There are a lot of variables, and this topic probably warrants a full length article or video at some point. There are many approaches, each with their own benefits and tradeoffs. That’s one common, simple and effective one above, but others can work too.
I´ve got a pair of pretty good 2 way speakers with 5 inch woofers but they don´t go low enough for mixing modern stuff like trap. I´ve been using a single 12" subwoofer for this reason but it never felt right to me. It somehow did not sound like one whole thing. Would it be better to have 2 8" subwoofers, one on each side, because they could be closer to the 2 way speakers? Many people say it makes no difference because bass is not locatable but it does not convince me. At least phase coherence can be improved by using 2 sub woofers, right?
if I have a small , cubeish room should I get one?. So I thought of getting a pair of Yamaha´s hs5 because of their clarity, and also a hs8s sub considering these yamahas are a 2 way speaker and if a put bass on them i"ll loose clarity of the mids. another reason is that by getting the sub my bass range will expand. For me this sounds super nice, but then I started watching a few videos where is exposed that putting a sub in a small bedroom (11ft x 10ft) is´nt a good Idea. my question is, considering my budget (1000 dollars) and my room´s dimensions, should a get a 2 way speaker with a subwoofer or a 3 way speaker?, and if I should get a 3 way speaker, wich one do you recommend? PD: is there something Im not considering that could be helpful on making my choice?
I have Elac F6 tower speakers that produce so much bass i stopped using my subwoofer completely. I listen to a lot of hard rock and metal. Subwoofer just doesn't add anything to the music I listen to, maybe if I listened to rap or R&B it would.
Im using HS7’s. The mid range is fantastic but everyone says the low is kind of a bummer. Would u guys suggest me to get a sub? Im treating my room at the moment, actually I’m building a whole studio with a vocal booth etc. Im working on my own work thats pretty bass heavy and I will do my own mix and mastering of my own projects for now. Im still a music production student and learning a lot every day but Im so busy with my studio and school now that I didnt have too much time to learn about all the ins and outs of monitors as I have more important production things to learn about right now. It would be really helpful to get some opinions :)
You can make a 3-way speaker by adding a sub to take the strain out of the speakers but you can't add a sub if those speakers are small bookshelf speakers that are a bit bass shy?... Got it! 😂
Necessary? No. Beneficial? It depends on your current speakers and if your room is treated well enough to actually make good use of the sub. Hope that helps! -Justin
my problem is my HS7 monitors seem to favor the higher frequencies, reference tracks do not sound good, they did sound better once I calibrated using sonar works reference 4, I can get a great sounding mix in my studio, but on every other system there is to much low end, I was thinking of adding a sub to get a better overall frequency response I really can't do any more with my room any thoughts would be appreciated
Yes, the HS7s are fairly bright. That works for some people but not for others. I’ve got a video about that coming soon. The big problem with working on speakers where reference tracks don’t sound good to you is that you’ll have to make your own mixes sound bad to you as well to get them to sound great in the real world. That’s not a fun or inspiring way to work! I can relate. An EQ system like Sonarworks can help quite a bit, but it’s better to start with a set of speakers you really like working on and then apply EQ to those. But there could be other factors as well: You could have your speakers placed or your room untreated to the degree where there are some deep low frequency nulls in your listening position, making your speakers sound even brighter sand more bass light still. This isn’t to say that a sub can’t help. It can add lower frequencies that are too deep for your current speakers to put out. But the HS7s are supposed to be fairly useful down to 40 Hz already (or so they claim-I haven’t measured them), so it may not be the first place to start. I always recommend starting with the 3 most important things first: speaker selection, room treatment/placement and EQ. Once you get all 3 of those happening to a place where you’re really liking what you’re getting, then adding a sub is potentially the icing on the cake, allowing your system to go deeper down and allowing your main woofer to push midrange more effectively. But ask yourself: “Am I hoping a sub will act like a low frequency EQ for my room?” If the answer is “yes”, go back to the drawing board and work in those three things first: Speaker selection, room treatment/placement and EQ. It sounds like you have the last one pretty well covered, so I’d look at the first two before looking at a sub. I just put out a couple good videos on room treatment and placement here, and have a good one on speaker selection coming soon too: ruclips.net/video/Yf8bLcnshJs/видео.html ruclips.net/video/0Zbj-dch_3g/видео.html Hope that helps!
Hi Justin, Thank you so much! This episode was extremely helpful. I've been thinking about getting a Sub to get deeper bass-so I have a better clue what's going on deep down there while I'm in the sweet spot. For the time being I check the lows with my KRK Headphones. Other than that I'm pretty happy with my Presonus Eris5 monitors, I got used to them, and my reference tracks sound amazing with the Eris5 in my room, even though it's not perfectly treated, but I trust the professional mixes and the Eris5. Well, I guess in my case it would be the Sub "Temblor" T8 or T10 by Presonus. Do you have any suggestions? And where should I place it? Many thanks in advance, and have a good one Justin!
Check the freq curve on your monitors specs sheet. Sometimes they say that they reach 30hz but it's at -10db so it's almost unaudible and you'll have problems when mixing low end.
@@luckyknot oh. It says it goes upto 45hz approximately on around 60db (I am not sure about the loudness. They didnt mention it.) So I should get a sub-woofer. By the way, I am talking about the krk classic 5. Thank you for replying.
@@sivaprasadashok8275 your monitors low-end audible response is around 56hz (-3db), then it drops dramatically until 46hz (-10db), so you won't have a good sub reference. Check if KrK has a compatible subwoofers with your model then u'll be able to work with 20-50hz. But if u are in a small room, I don't know if that's a good idea... u'll need many bass traps, absorbers and this won't guarantee u anything... if u have more space, go for it.
@@luckyknot It does have a sub woofer which I can buy separately but considering the amount of money i need to spend on acoustics, i am planning to get headphones instead of studio monitors (DT-990 pro). What do you say? I already spent like 1500 dollars on my PC.
@@sivaprasadashok8275 yep it's a good idea but I wouldn't recommend mixing all time or the whole song with headphones for long-term ear health reasons. I for example use AKG Pro K712 to check if my low-end is more or less in good shape (i do not have sub either but i'm planning to get one soon). So definitely having good monitoring headphones will help you. Note: rockwool at 60-70 density for room treatment is cheap, check DiY videos and you'll save up a lot of money. It won't help much with lowest sub freqs but you can tame those going to 100hz.
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I added a great sub to my Focal 3 way speakers. It was not just to extend the low and but to be able to playback at higher volume. Lots of clients like to listen very very loud. Adding a sub protected my Focal SM9Bs. I tuned the sub and the crossovers so that it sounds great in my ok treated room. I have so much more headroom now and can make it super loud without risking to break my speakers or get distortion. It was a great decision.
All great reasons to get a sub! Yes, you can increase the potential clean output of the system by adding on more power while taxing each of the speakers less. Great addition, thanks.
Playback to clients is HUGE . Without a sub you miss the boat.
Thank you for the valuable information on how to make use of the subwoofer.
cant mix what you cant hear.. Ever finished a mix that sounds great in the studio and headphones but then listen to it in the car and its too boomy or not enough bass? if you cant hear under 50hz on your monitors get a sub and turn it on and off during the mixing process,, you will save time
I have sometimes the same problem - and now I am listening my mixes on several types of speakers not only on studio monitors, but also on woox subowoofer phillips to get it right... I was overcompenansating for bass in the past. Maybe I will buy a sub soon to get it even more under the control.
so true, I cranked up the volume on a low sine I couldn't hear that well when mixing on my laptop. Sounded perfect, went to the car for a test and it overpowered my entire track. So frustrating lol. And ive come to notice now that my KRK5´s doesn't go below 50 hz, and when I looked at my sub bass line it was well below that with some notes in the 30-40hz range.
Yes
Yep, this is pretty much how I got here. My current track sounds amazing on my monitors but absolute dogshit on a normal sound system. I finally got around to getting a meter and sure enough lots of stuff happening right around 50hz. Just added the sub today and remixing
Even if your room is untreated, a sub can be useful. Imagine mixing a flute on a sub.
You need some idea of what's going on. If you have frequencies in 40 to 60 hertz and you're mixing on 3.5" speakers you will never hear it, ever.
Even if it's just for quickly referencing the low end in my opinion.
Great answers to all my questions! Currently adding a Yamaha HS8S to my room in order to take load off of my Focal Alpha 50s. I put a lot of stress on them, especially when doing playback at high volumes and getting a sub will definitely protect my investment! 5" isn't a lot of leg room for the bass and mids, and I love my Focals. Can't risk having the drivers go out when a sub could handle so much more of the load. Thanks again for the great video!
Blowing my mind that adding a sub brings out my mids too. But I just added the KRK S8.4 to my Rokit 5" G4s today (probably why this video popped up) and I'm hearing it right now. The idea that the woofer can now do what it's supposed to instead of getting distracted by "low end excursions"...simple common sense that never occurred to me without this nudge. Grateful, Liked & Subscribed!
hey! I was planning on pairing a sub with my rokit 5 g4 as well... how was your experience before and after adding the sub
@@pritishgandhi6535 Nothing but improvements. Wouldn't go back. My one complaint is, even after calibrating the speakers using their app, I'm not sure the sub volume relative to the monitors is set correctly. The amount of bass I hear in my mixes varies between sound systems more than I'd like and I suspect it's to do with that setting. My acoustics are also less than ideal, especially for bass frequencies, as I'm forced into a corner desk, so it may be impossible to get that setting correct in my case.
Finally! A topic that's so scarce to find info on. Thanks much. I am saving to get a 3-way and can't wait to experience the sound of it in my studio😃
Sweet! Good luck with it. When you’re up and rocking, let us know how it goes.
We extended ADAM S3-Vs each on a Sub12 and to be honest, this was a wonderful decision. Room is obviously fully treated and Trinnov does the rest. The low end driver of the S3-Vs performs like two times as good as before by feeding anything below 65 Hz to the subs and they themselves are pretty relaxed due to the narrow band they reproduce. Driver alignment / timing was not an issue at all, Trinnov didn't have to do a lot there, even though the setup now looks more like a line array, it still performs closer to a point source. In fact, adding the subs didn't change a lot at all. Only thing we had to take care of, was a little phaseshift at the crossover point - no big deal for Trinnov.
Sounds like you did the right thing and for the right reasons! So glad to hear it is working out for you.
-Justin
I create dub/deep techno. I need to monitor sub. However, I added a sub and because my room is crap (a square) I don’t get the sub I need. Just a mess of goop in the room corners. So I just use Sonarworks for my headphones and that helped me a lot.
Killing it with these videos lately! I'm in the middle of a build and you're touching on everything I need to know about. Some of what I knew, and some of what I had no clue about. You're the man 💪🏼
This is very accurate. In car audio, people always ask what speakers they can get to make their car sound better. My first response is to get an amp and subwoofer. Usually I hear "but I don't want to have one of those cars". Totally wrong. You want to fill out the bottom end, you can adjust the level of that and ideally have it blend perfectly, not be a slamming bass machine. When crossed over around 80Hz, you take all of the pressure off of the mids and allow them to play more accurately. So much so, that you can still use your stock speakers. You will get a far larger gain by having solid foundation to your frequencies rather than trying to buy a magic speaker.
Respectfully, as we’re on the topic of budget speakers (KRK etc), I don’t see how choosing 3-way monitors over a sub is an alternative for reaching the frequency response that goes lower than the average FR in monitors (45hz+).
A sub allows you to hear below 45hz, because it’s built for that and this is illustrated in the spec sheets. The same can’t be said for monitors, whether they’re 2-way or 3-way.
I remember watching this video in the past and it didn’t exactly give me confidence in this channel, if I’m being completely honest. It’s only the guests that have kept me subscribed to it, e.g. Michael Beuar to name one. I’ve probably butchered the spelling of his surname ha!
I have NS-10’s which have nothing below 100 Hz. I could not get the bass right until I added a sub. I would listen to reference tracks sometimes mixed by CLA and noticed how much bass guitar was in the sub. Then I would match that with my own tracks and it worked out great! So I always make sure my bass guitar is in the sub and a little kick too but one more dominant than the other. But then I click the sub off and make sure I got the bass in the low-mid range as well through the NS-10’s and that I hear everything there. I also have JBL monitors. So when everything sounds good on all three combinations it sounds good everywhere!
That is a good reason to get a sub! There are some very good engineers out there who like to use an NS-10 with a sub that they can use or bypass.
It’s either that, or have another monitoring option that goes deeper. I probably see even more of the latter, but either can work well if your room is in reasonably good shape.
Seems like you’ve got it covered on both fronts. Keep doing what works and happy mixing!
@mary allen that's great. So you want to make sure that the music sounds good on all combinations. With the sub on. And with the sub off. You got to have the bass in that low mid-range through your smaller monitor speakers. It sounds good there and you click the sub on and it still sounds good then you're really On Target.
I have a question, isnt a sub supposed to be producing low frequencies from a more strategic place in conjunction with your main studio monitor placement and sweet spot? To preserve the stereo image and sound stage , but find a better place for the sub so u can hear it in your sweetspot. I believe a sub is like separating your low driver from the set of studio monitors so you can have more possible placements with which u can hear low frequencies better.
Great video. Helped me much. Quick take out is HF is to be heard LF is to be felt !
I had a 3-way, and it definitely got more low end all up in my sweet spot. And vice-versa, come to think of it.
I dont really understand why a 3 way speaker can sound better then 2way speakers. If you can set the cross overs and the phase for the sub and align all the drivers. The only argument i can see for 3 way or multi way speakers is listening position. With a much wider stereo image you get more listening positions. Thats how is see it
Super informative video! This is a real go-to channel for reliable info! Please make videos more often! 👍🤝🙂
Thanks! We’re doing 2/week most weeks now. We may add a 3rd weekly in the new year with more of a Q&A format so stay tuned!
If you want even more, check out SonicScoop.com where we post 4-5 times per week!
great video about getting a sub or not :-) I use a pair of Dynaudio acoustics MKII in my little (synth) homestudio. I am VERY satisfied with these speakers (since 3 years now) but i wanted some deeper bass :-) after i looked around what subs could fit (and beeing bit cheaper than a sub from Dynaudio) i decided to order a JBL LSR 310 S. The guy at the shop told me he`s thinking that could be a really good combination. Maybe will write what i will find out :-) Thank you for your great videos. All the best
One of the most underrated podcasts when it comes to audio!
THANKS MAN!!! GOD BLESS YOU!
I am Indian and I am getting from this channel many valuable videos thank you so much owner of this channel l will support this channel 😍😍😌😌😇😇😇😘😘😘😘 please upload in the future also such videos specially about the mixing mastering music and audio production thank you so much
Will do! We have a ton out already, going back a decade! Have a look around at RUclips.com/SonicScoopVideo
You mention that you shouldn't get a sub in order to get more bass, but I feel like you didn't quite elaborate on why. Are you saying a sub wouldn't give you a more full sounding bass? I have the Adam T5Vs and I feel like I tend to hit the bass a little too hard in most cases, so I was thinking of getting the T10s. Not sure I need to go deeper than 45hz necessarily but I like to feel the bass and that spells trouble when referencing some mixes on my Soundbar with a sub.
Ha! I have 2 KRK 15" subs in my studio. They are wired independently to both speaker sets I have. My KRK 5" have their own sub and my KRK 8" have their own sub. Seems to work good for my set up. If i don't want the sub I can turn it off with the KRK foot switch that comes with the sub.
Thanks for the informative video Justin. The advice chimes with what some others say, but it is particularly well said.
I know that you favour 3-way speakers (over adding subwoofers) in your own main studio applications. There don't seem to be many 3-way speakers around, not within my budget. There must be a market for (non-sub) bass speakers which can crossover with the customer's existing little studio monitors, just like subs do, only for capturing the normal bass range better. Is anybody making those?
My main application is practising and recording my digital piano. Sometimes I record other instruments too. I don't aspire to owning a pro studio. I have two studio monitors with 5" woofers. I guess they're more like warblers to you. The sound seems good, but I can't believe I'm hearing it all.
I welcome any replies from other viewers.
I have a small room that is heavily boosting bass frequencies at 60 hz and 130 hz. This is physics. Even my small Focal Shape 50 have to be high passed at 120 hz using the rear filters to decrease those boosts. So adding a subwoofer in such a room would be total non sense. I suppose 99% of the people watching this video are in the same situation (maybe the boosted F is different but the problem is exactly the same).
Informative and yes for sub all the way and Beyerdynamic 1990s with Sonarworks has niice bass too.
One advantage of a 2 way +sub over 3 ways is you can save power by turning the sub off and use only the satellites ;)
THATS MY QUESTION, I HOPE THIS WILL ANSWER IT
I hope we did!
I'm in a 23x18ft bonus room (above a garage so with slanted walls). Base traps in every corner and broadband 2" absorption panels on about 70% of the wall surfaces. I"m using a pair of Kali IN-5 three way speakers. I'm facing long ways in the room the rear of my monitors are about 5ft from the wall. My low end feels very underwhelming and overall volume is kinda low unless in direct mixing position. This is a project studio and it's hard for others to vibe when sound levels are just not there. Should I look into bigger monitors or getting a sub or is monitor placement the biggest issue?
I’ve got a sub coming in tomorrow. We shall see how it goes! I mix primarily rap music so I need that low end info
@fu J it’s good! This video gives a very precise description of what to expect. I bought the JBL LSR310S. It has a built in crossover. I feed outputs from my Drawmer monitor controller to the sub, and the outputs from the sub feed my near fields. This allows the sub to do the heavy lifting on the low frequencies and the near fields provide the mid and hi frequencies. It’s great
@@mobutterbeats8646 yeah i'm thinking of ordering it too. Prob the B Stock for $310. I had the Monoprice 605999 10" for $200 but realized it's crossover does not actually work! Which is a shame, it has great output. But it just Low Passes to the Sub, doesn't High Pass to the monitors. Someone seriously dropped the ball at Monoprice on that one. I realize when mixing and mastering I need to A/B with the sub and without it, just mixing with the sub will not translate so well to 2.0 systems. It's also nice to have a sub for casual listening or recording DJ sets.
How do you know how to set the correct level for the sub?
So, it seems a sub is a magnifying glass for low end frequencies you cant hear in your mix when using smaller monitors.
I'm using the same studio monitors I bought 20 years ago - 5" M-Audio Studiophile 5P-5B. For the first several years, my mixes were way too boomy and bass heavy because these monitors have a massive roll off below 100Hz, and I over compensated for the lack of bass when mixing. Then after getting a 2x4 interface, I could run my 3/4 outputs into my desktop Logitech speakers with a subwoofer, and test my mixes that way, especially for bass. Since then, car tests sound great. Yesterday I finally got a the Presonus Eris 8Sub to run with the M-Audios and it's fantastic. Much flatter overall sound than my Logitech speakers (smiley face EQ for sure) and I can actually hear the bass frequencies. Nothing here is treated, it's drywall and a rug and the speakers are less than a foot away from the walls. But I'm getting better at mixing and I'm happy with the results. The nice thing about my Logitech speakers is that I can control the subwoofer level easily, and get a "phone" speaker test, all without exporting the mix. I'll still test on the Logitech but I'll do more mixing on the studio monitors now.
What about subs that must be placed on the floor? how to isolate them to avoid bass waves to travel through the concrete or bricks structure and hearing unwanted sub ressonances or having cancellations? I don't think it's that magical but could something like Sonarworks callibration fix it? Thanks for the video Justin!
I've never seen a reputable pro studio that uses a subwoofer, and I worked at one for 2 years.
Still... that doesn't mean you shouldn't get one.
Just remember to be honest with yourself. You're not buying a sub because you need to hear all that low end. You're buying it because you want to.
The pros don't care about the low end. They know it's there, and they don't need it blasting into their chest lol.
I've seen them mix entire rap albums on NS-10s
thanks for the value
A negative is that many subs have dsp which adds a bit of latency. May not be noticeable but along with other system latencies may add up to being noticeable. 😅
I am the party pooper
Glad you dug it!
-Justin
excellent really useful, makes me think twice or more about getting that sub...
Great info! Thanks!
What’s the difference between going DEEPER vs. BOOSTING low end?
I know this is old but he means the sub can produce lower frequencies say down to 20hz, where monitors alone only go down to 50hz. So a sub can play deeper and also take the bass workload off the main monitors making them sound better too.
GREAT INFO! THANKS FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO
Really helpful video, thank you!
what if you just want to make the house shake. how about using a bass guitar amp as a sub?
Do you have any info on how to calibrate a sub?
That probably deserves a video all its own! Thanks for the question. We haven't quite covered that in depth here or on SonicScoop.com just yet, believe it or not. Here's the basics:
You'll need an SPL meter. You can download one for your phone if you don't have one. An RTA (real time frequency analyzer) can be helpful as well. Then, you'll want to calibrate your speakers and subs to
1. Choose a crossover point.
2. Calibrate your speakers and sub to a common reference level.
3. Make sure they are phase aligned.
For #1, One common recommendation is to choose a frequency that is an octave and a half above the lowest frequency your main speakers can reproduce. So, if your main speakers go all the way down to 40Hz you might set your crossover to 60Hz. If your speakers go down to only 60Hz you might pick 90Hz and so on.
For #2, you'll want to pick a specific SPL reference level, just slightly lower than your primary listening level. A lot of people will pick anywhere from 75dB to 85dB. Let's say you're aiming for 80dB for this example.
First, play some pink noise through just your main monitors and adjust their trim knob until you get a reading of 80dB. Then, play some pink noise through just your sub. Shoot for that same reference level: 80dB. (Or whatever level you picked.)
You can "cheat" this a little bit. Some people will go a little louder or quieter on the sub. But idea is that at the end, you should be able to pull up an RTA (real time frequency analyzer) and see a pretty pure looking pink or white noise graph coming back at you in the end, with no bass boost or rolloff.
But before you can do that you have to make sure your speakers and sub are in phase. That brings us to #3: To get the speakers and sub in phase, the easiest thing is to play a sine wave at or around the crossover point of the system. Then, move and rotate the subwoofer around until that test tone becomes the *quietest* you can get. Once you get it as quiet and out of phase as you can, flip the polarity switch on your sub to bring all that low end back into phase. Done!
Hope that helps!
-Justin
Completely disagree with some points in here u can actually sort some of your nulls with a sub with a higher cross over , obviously your room has to treated but 90 percent rooms have nulls because of floor reflection.
Carl Tatz phantom focus system has been huge eye opener for me if you follow his technique u can solve lot of low end issues in your room with a sub 😊
Sure, going with a higher crossover point can work too. There are a lot of variables, and this topic probably warrants a full length article or video at some point. There are many approaches, each with their own benefits and tradeoffs. That’s one common, simple and effective one above, but others can work too.
Justin Colletti yes absolutely, all depends on your room
I´ve got a pair of pretty good 2 way speakers with 5 inch woofers but they don´t go low enough for mixing modern stuff like trap. I´ve been using a single 12" subwoofer for this reason but it never felt right to me. It somehow did not sound like one whole thing. Would it be better to have 2 8" subwoofers, one on each side, because they could be closer to the 2 way speakers? Many people say it makes no difference because bass is not locatable but it does not convince me. At least phase coherence can be improved by using 2 sub woofers, right?
if I have a small , cubeish room should I get one?. So I thought of getting a pair of Yamaha´s hs5 because of their clarity, and also a hs8s sub considering these yamahas are a 2 way speaker and if a put bass on them i"ll loose clarity of the mids. another reason is that by getting the sub my bass range will expand. For me this sounds super nice, but then I started watching a few videos where is exposed that putting a sub in a small bedroom (11ft x 10ft) is´nt a good Idea. my question is, considering my budget (1000 dollars) and my room´s dimensions, should a get a 2 way speaker with a subwoofer or a 3 way speaker?, and if I should get a 3 way speaker, wich one do you recommend?
PD: is there something Im not considering that could be helpful on making my choice?
love your channel
I have Elac F6 tower speakers that produce so much bass i stopped using my subwoofer completely. I listen to a lot of hard rock and metal. Subwoofer just doesn't add anything to the music I listen to, maybe if I listened to rap or R&B it would.
Im using the same KRK speakers and I have a krk sub, what cross over freq do you suggest thats optimal?
Hey Sonicscoop, I got two rokit 5 monitors, any way i can add a krk sub, and split it three ways?
You just got a sub from me and it is a really cheap sub (yet it still means a lot to you). Good deal!👍
Glad you are enjoying it! Thanks for the sub.
Well, now I am justified in building a studio shed instead of getting to use half of a bedroom office as my control center LOL
Really helpful video, thank you! New sub !
Hi Justin, what about trap music, it got a lot of sub Bass or 808 kicks goin on and i got a small room...! Thanks for your Videos Salute
Thank you for the info. :)
Im using HS7’s. The mid range is fantastic but everyone says the low is kind of a bummer. Would u guys suggest me to get a sub? Im treating my room at the moment, actually I’m building a whole studio with a vocal booth etc. Im working on my own work thats pretty bass heavy and I will do my own mix and mastering of my own projects for now. Im still a music production student and learning a lot every day but Im so busy with my studio and school now that I didnt have too much time to learn about all the ins and outs of monitors as I have more important production things to learn about right now. It would be really helpful to get some opinions :)
I have sonarworks for when my studio is done. Im considering Focal SM9’s but they are a huge lot more expensive as a HS8S
You can make a 3-way speaker by adding a sub to take the strain out of the speakers but you can't add a sub if those speakers are small bookshelf speakers that are a bit bass shy?... Got it! 😂
I don’t remember saying quite that.
Cheaper 3 way or more expensive 2 way with no sub?
Do you think a subwoofer is needed for mixing salsa music?
Necessary? No. Beneficial? It depends on your current speakers and if your room is treated well enough to actually make good use of the sub.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
3rd gen or so Wazacraft style Headphones and IR's will take over eventually. Virtual tuned studio
Really informative. :)
my problem is my HS7 monitors seem to favor the higher frequencies, reference tracks do not sound good, they did sound better once I calibrated using sonar works reference 4, I can get a great sounding mix in my studio, but on every other system there is to much low end, I was thinking of adding a sub to get a better overall frequency response I really can't do any more with my room any thoughts would be appreciated
Yes, the HS7s are fairly bright. That works for some people but not for others. I’ve got a video about that coming soon.
The big problem with working on speakers where reference tracks don’t sound good to you is that you’ll have to make your own mixes sound bad to you as well to get them to sound great in the real world.
That’s not a fun or inspiring way to work! I can relate.
An EQ system like Sonarworks can help quite a bit, but it’s better to start with a set of speakers you really like working on and then apply EQ to those.
But there could be other factors as well: You could have your speakers placed or your room untreated to the degree where there are some deep low frequency nulls in your listening position, making your speakers sound even brighter sand more bass light still.
This isn’t to say that a sub can’t help. It can add lower frequencies that are too deep for your current speakers to put out. But the HS7s are supposed to be fairly useful down to 40 Hz already (or so they claim-I haven’t measured them), so it may not be the first place to start.
I always recommend starting with the 3 most important things first: speaker selection, room treatment/placement and EQ. Once you get all 3 of those happening to a place where you’re really liking what you’re getting, then adding a sub is potentially the icing on the cake, allowing your system to go deeper down and allowing your main woofer to push midrange more effectively.
But ask yourself: “Am I hoping a sub will act like a low frequency EQ for my room?”
If the answer is “yes”, go back to the drawing board and work in those three things first: Speaker selection, room treatment/placement and EQ.
It sounds like you have the last one pretty well covered, so I’d look at the first two before looking at a sub.
I just put out a couple good videos on room treatment and placement here, and have a good one on speaker selection coming soon too:
ruclips.net/video/Yf8bLcnshJs/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/0Zbj-dch_3g/видео.html
Hope that helps!
@@JustinColletti thank you very much for taking the time to respond very helpful
Hi Justin, Thank you so much! This episode was extremely helpful. I've been thinking about getting a Sub to get deeper bass-so I have a better clue what's going on deep down there while I'm in the sweet spot. For the time being I check the lows with my KRK Headphones. Other than that I'm pretty happy with my Presonus Eris5 monitors, I got used to them, and my reference tracks sound amazing with the Eris5 in my room, even though it's not perfectly treated, but I trust the professional mixes and the Eris5. Well, I guess in my case it would be the Sub "Temblor" T8 or T10 by Presonus. Do you have any suggestions? And where should I place it? Many thanks in advance, and have a good one Justin!
well it depends on your room situation
Buying big 8 inch speaker is better then adding sub woofer.
My monitors go upto 30hz. Should I get a sub-woofer?
Check the freq curve on your monitors specs sheet. Sometimes they say that they reach 30hz but it's at -10db so it's almost unaudible and you'll have problems when mixing low end.
@@luckyknot oh. It says it goes upto 45hz approximately on around 60db (I am not sure about the loudness. They didnt mention it.) So I should get a sub-woofer. By the way, I am talking about the krk classic 5. Thank you for replying.
@@sivaprasadashok8275 your monitors low-end audible response is around 56hz (-3db), then it drops dramatically until 46hz (-10db), so you won't have a good sub reference. Check if KrK has a compatible subwoofers with your model then u'll be able to work with 20-50hz. But if u are in a small room, I don't know if that's a good idea... u'll need many bass traps, absorbers and this won't guarantee u anything... if u have more space, go for it.
@@luckyknot It does have a sub woofer which I can buy separately but considering the amount of money i need to spend on acoustics, i am planning to get headphones instead of studio monitors (DT-990 pro). What do you say? I already spent like 1500 dollars on my PC.
@@sivaprasadashok8275 yep it's a good idea but I wouldn't recommend mixing all time or the whole song with headphones for long-term ear health reasons. I for example use AKG Pro K712 to check if my low-end is more or less in good shape (i do not have sub either but i'm planning to get one soon). So definitely having good monitoring headphones will help you. Note: rockwool at 60-70 density for room treatment is cheap, check DiY videos and you'll save up a lot of money. It won't help much with lowest sub freqs but you can tame those going to 100hz.
But how do we take professional monitoring advice from someone using KRK? HAHA!
of course get a sub....no brainer
Please fix your silibance 😬
totally wrong. -sorry to tell
DeEsse your videos.