Back In the day of 3.5 we had similar ways of throwing people. Strength vs Strength to grapple then Strength vs Strength to throw. It was very easy realize & perform. Old ideas always come back around. Nice job Alan!
Your selling this so hard my dude, I need this game NOW !! I LOVE every detail about this system and think it truly rivels the new 5E I wish you ALL the success for this
This will be helpfull, my Giantborn Monk is all about throwing, i threw some gunpowder barrels at a horde of goblins and another party member shot a flaming arrow at it💥
here from dndshorts! This system is so awesome I have binged so many videos all day today. I was wondering if you had considered an initiative-less combat. Because that to me sounded like one of the best features of dagger heart. An optional rule next to initiative would also work.
Initiative rework is on the docket BUT there is also going to be a system for Skirmish initiative (variant rule) that will be an initiative-less system Welcome and glad to have you here!!
Love these mechanics! I think maybe the smalls might benefit from some unique maneuvers/benefits to compensate for it being easier to stomp them into putty.
I remember early into my first game with my family, my Nephew wanted to grab the Grick we encountered and throw it against the wall. I ruled that the damage should be determined by a simple strength roll, but I also realized that the rules stated that grappling was an entire action and to throw would take their NEXT action. I decided to play it as such to see how it would feel for that encounter and adjust it later. He rolled a 4 and since the Grick was resistant to non magic damage, that was reduced to 2. Needless to say, this was absolutely devastating to him in terms of his engagement. The next time he tried to throw was in the next campaign, when he wanted to toss a Zombie from the balcony in Ravenloft. I told him to roll a D20 for distance, when it landed on 20, I told him that he threw the Zombie so far, it went out the stained glass window and into the courtyard outside, where it splattered across the ground. He found this much more in line with his expectations of what a throw would do to a creature.
Question: How many spaces do you fall per turn? If the collision rule is global, we just need to worry about rate of falling. Or do you have something different for fall damage?
Would be cool to assign a quality for structures that determined how much impact they could sustain without breaking. Lets call it Impact Strength. For example: Target is thrown into a wooden fence 3 spaces beyond fence. Fence has Impact Strength of 3. Target breaks theough fence (meets it = beats it) and lands 3 spaces beyond, if possible. Cavern wall has Impact Strength of 10. Target is thrown 4 spaces beyond wall. Target takes damage as normal. Same cavern wall. Target is thrown 12 spaces beyond (crazy telekinesis or something idk). Cavern wall collapses and crumbling ceiling crushes target. Could be a cool quality to include in certain dungeons.
Ooooo I love that thought! YES if the GM wanted to assign an HP to the wall I would still have the create take that damage also, but if it was exceeded then the wall would break then they keep flying through the air! Love that
In my system, you deal the number of spaces a creature would have been moved no matter how much they moved before as damage. So, a 10 m push will deal 10 damage, whether the creature crashes instantly into the wall or is thrown 9 m through the room first. This simplifies the math. Also, you can move them into any object/surface. You can just smash them into the ground or catapult them into the sealing to combo it with some nice falling damage. You also deal that damage to whatever you throw them into. Move them with enough force and you can break a wall with them. If you move them into another creature, they gain the chance to perform a Strength defense roll, potentially catching the creature and preventing all the damage. This gives you a nice risk-reward option for potential double damage.
it depends on the system and what you want to achieve, if movement is important for your action economy, then doing damage and and moving would be too strong. It could be counterbalanced with lowering the move values and then having it deal the same damage, but then throwing someone very far away wouldn't be easy to achieve
@@Chris3s True, but I balance it in my system by reducing the effective damage that you can deal with it. Move Target gets you 4 m for 2 Willpower (WP) with an upcast option of an additional 4 m for 1 WP. Compare that to Physical Bolt, which starts out with 2d10 damage for 2 WP and an upcast option of 1d10 per 1 WP. Physical Bolt starts with an average of 11 damage on hit and is twice as powerful. Every additional upcast is, on average, 1,5 stronger than Move Target. Yes, an up-casted Move target can potentially deal more damage when you throw an enemy into another one, but you need to succeed on two rolls instead of just one. Otherwise, you deal no damage.
This is something that will be codified for sure, BUT I'd say they would take however much damage the object needed to take before breaking, then move the remaining spaces, if that makes sense
If I melee hit a creature right next to me with my hunter's-strike grappling class-feature, can I then throw the creature without needing to grapple them a again?
What if you are being thrown and you succeed in an acrobatics test getting your foot on something that you can cause yourself to spin and then make another acrobatics check for spinning at the right rate of spin to strike a person you would collide with to hit them with your feet, knees flexed and kick off of them into another spin to allow you to land on the floor. Would you still get damage?
What about a Judo Style throw to the ground... would it just basically let you do 1/2 your might score+(rule of 5), straight to the ground? Thematically they'd be prone, but realistically that may be way too 'optimal'.
I'm curious how the throwing mechanic would work when throwing an ally? Say the fighter wants the barbarian to throw him at the BBEG. Grapple would be an auto fail but there would still be some difficulty in throwing someone.
I really like this as a general concept. I do have one question though. Could this turn smaller characters into completely unavoidable projectiles or were you planning to introduce a mechanism for another character to evade them, like a dex save in D&D, or maybe requiring the attacker to hit their physical defense when targeting one character at another?
How much longer are you going to release alpha updates to the rule set, and is the beta rule set going to be available immediately during the kickstarter? I'm kind of interested, but I'm not likely to play it in the next month.
So grappling arts aka Wrestling, Clinches and Submissions is how I rank Melee combat in all forms of gaming. Throws/ shoving etc. are extremely lacking in 5e. I like DC 20's approach. question: With 4 actions....Can You grab, Hold/pin then throw? Or Hold and Crush( say an armbar or choke.) Really interested in the grappling builds this system will bring out.
What if I throw a Gnome at an ogre? What if I throw an ogre at a gnome? Does damage reduction apply to shared damage and would that not disincentive throwing people at certain targets?
Im assuming unarmed strikes don't get weapon properties/passives (similar to improvised weapons). However this is not explicitly stated. There are fist weapon properties but I assume those don't apply as unarmed strikes probably require attacking without a weapon.
Considering fist is a weapon type and to use fist weapon properties you would need to be using a fist weapon I don't think unarmed strikes apply since you are not wielding a weapon (or it would not be unarmed). An unarmed strike is explicitly an attack done using one's own body. When wielding a fist weapon there is an additional thing assisting your attacks. Unless it specifies in any features that you are allowed to use fist weapon properties when using unarmed strikes. TLDR: Weapon styles/properties can only be used when wielding a weapon you have mastery in and unarmed strikes do not qualify as a weapon. Edit: The ability to use weapon maneuvers and passives may not be tied to weapon mastery, but possibly features given by classes and talents.
Why would you throw instead of pushing? Would a push be 1 action? Can you push people more than 1 space? 1 damage per space they can't move doesn't seem like a lot of damage. Wouldn't an attack and then a push do more damage?
Evil DM Coach! I would like to use my action point on help action / reaction and graple a friend that was throw at me. Would it reduce our damage on succes and how high roll I need? After thought if the enemy is throw at me I would like to cach him in the air and throw him further 😈 What I need to do?
I like, but imo having two opposed rolls to throw a creature will lead to throwing failing often, which to me seems un-fun for the sake of simulationism. I think that once the grapple is established, the throw should be inevitable, but the target creature might get a roll or save to partially resist the effect.
This is potentially a complication of the thrown damage calculation, but you could round up the damage on only the stationary character if needed. That represents that the stationary character is facing more acceleration and therefore more force than the thrown character. In other words, the stationary character is reducing the impact for the thrown character. This makes it so getting thrown X extra spaces does X damage always, not more due to double rounding up.
The Trip maneuver has been changed to cost 2AP. Therefore, if you have a high Athletics bonus, the Shove Action is technically more efficient than the Trip Maneuver. Trip is still useful for martial builds that don't go in MIG.@@TheLunarPierce
🤔 if I'm a half giant and I throw this kobold into an Ogre then do they indeed take equal damage? I would reduce the damage for the Ogre by say, 1 and increase for the Kobold by 1. Make sense Alan?
The "take damage for every space you cant move" is essentially the opposite to fall damage in dnd5e, both are simple and both fill the need very well
It’s orthogonal!
The more and more I see of this system... the more I feel like you struck something reeeeeeeeeeallly special.
Back In the day of 3.5 we had similar ways of throwing people. Strength vs Strength to grapple then Strength vs Strength to throw. It was very easy realize & perform. Old ideas always come back around. Nice job Alan!
You might think it's boring, but I'd be very interested in a video about why rounding up is so much better!
Your selling this so hard my dude, I need this game NOW !! I LOVE every detail about this system and think it truly rivels the new 5E
I wish you ALL the success for this
Brancalonia is ingenious. Just a fantastic, flavorful setting.
This guy actually thought of everything.
This will be helpfull, my Giantborn Monk is all about throwing, i threw some gunpowder barrels at a horde of goblins and another party member shot a flaming arrow at it💥
here from dndshorts! This system is so awesome I have binged so many videos all day today. I was wondering if you had considered an initiative-less combat. Because that to me sounded like one of the best features of dagger heart. An optional rule next to initiative would also work.
Initiative rework is on the docket BUT there is also going to be a system for Skirmish initiative (variant rule) that will be an initiative-less system
Welcome and glad to have you here!!
How can anyone be always so excited?
Cocaine
Love these mechanics! I think maybe the smalls might benefit from some unique maneuvers/benefits to compensate for it being easier to stomp them into putty.
Keep on throwing us stuff Coach. This game is awsome!! 💜
I see what you did there!! lol
I remember early into my first game with my family, my Nephew wanted to grab the Grick we encountered and throw it against the wall. I ruled that the damage should be determined by a simple strength roll, but I also realized that the rules stated that grappling was an entire action and to throw would take their NEXT action. I decided to play it as such to see how it would feel for that encounter and adjust it later. He rolled a 4 and since the Grick was resistant to non magic damage, that was reduced to 2. Needless to say, this was absolutely devastating to him in terms of his engagement. The next time he tried to throw was in the next campaign, when he wanted to toss a Zombie from the balcony in Ravenloft. I told him to roll a D20 for distance, when it landed on 20, I told him that he threw the Zombie so far, it went out the stained glass window and into the courtyard outside, where it splattered across the ground. He found this much more in line with his expectations of what a throw would do to a creature.
Question:
How many spaces do you fall per turn? If the collision rule is global, we just need to worry about rate of falling.
Or do you have something different for fall damage?
This is something I have always wanted!
Love the Dungeon Coach. Throwing is the best!
Thanks for the video! Can’t wait to play the game!
Thumbnail is genious
Would be cool to assign a quality for structures that determined how much impact they could sustain without breaking. Lets call it Impact Strength. For example:
Target is thrown into a wooden fence 3 spaces beyond fence. Fence has Impact Strength of 3. Target breaks theough fence (meets it = beats it) and lands 3 spaces beyond, if possible.
Cavern wall has Impact Strength of 10. Target is thrown 4 spaces beyond wall. Target takes damage as normal.
Same cavern wall. Target is thrown 12 spaces beyond (crazy telekinesis or something idk). Cavern wall collapses and crumbling ceiling crushes target.
Could be a cool quality to include in certain dungeons.
Brancalonia is an amazing sounding product I’ve seen reviewed before so I can see why you’d take them up on it!
About the shared damage stuff... Does the wall take damage? I am thinking about something like glass, plaster or japanese walls how would you do it?
Ooooo I love that thought! YES if the GM wanted to assign an HP to the wall I would still have the create take that damage also, but if it was exceeded then the wall would break then they keep flying through the air! Love that
Love this so much!
In my system, you deal the number of spaces a creature would have been moved no matter how much they moved before as damage. So, a 10 m push will deal 10 damage, whether the creature crashes instantly into the wall or is thrown 9 m through the room first. This simplifies the math.
Also, you can move them into any object/surface. You can just smash them into the ground or catapult them into the sealing to combo it with some nice falling damage. You also deal that damage to whatever you throw them into. Move them with enough force and you can break a wall with them.
If you move them into another creature, they gain the chance to perform a Strength defense roll, potentially catching the creature and preventing all the damage. This gives you a nice risk-reward option for potential double damage.
it depends on the system and what you want to achieve, if movement is important for your action economy, then doing damage and and moving would be too strong. It could be counterbalanced with lowering the move values and then having it deal the same damage, but then throwing someone very far away wouldn't be easy to achieve
@@Chris3s True, but I balance it in my system by reducing the effective damage that you can deal with it. Move Target gets you 4 m for 2 Willpower (WP) with an upcast option of an additional 4 m for 1 WP. Compare that to Physical Bolt, which starts out with 2d10 damage for 2 WP and an upcast option of 1d10 per 1 WP.
Physical Bolt starts with an average of 11 damage on hit and is twice as powerful. Every additional upcast is, on average, 1,5 stronger than Move Target. Yes, an up-casted Move target can potentially deal more damage when you throw an enemy into another one, but you need to succeed on two rolls instead of just one. Otherwise, you deal no damage.
Coach, what if you are in a bar fight and get thrown through a window? Target takes 1 slashing damage and continues any further spaces thrown?
This is something that will be codified for sure, BUT I'd say they would take however much damage the object needed to take before breaking, then move the remaining spaces, if that makes sense
@@TheDungeonCoach 100%
Can you knock a creature prone by throwing another creature at it?
Raw, no, but I could totally see that being a talent or feature
I swear the image on the friar monk page is Bud Spencer.
It would be interesting if a thrown creature has to do a check or land prone, like the equivalent of an agility check.
If I melee hit a creature right next to me with my hunter's-strike grappling class-feature, can I then throw the creature without needing to grapple them a again?
What if you are being thrown and you succeed in an acrobatics test getting your foot on something that you can cause yourself to spin and then make another acrobatics check for spinning at the right rate of spin to strike a person you would collide with to hit them with your feet, knees flexed and kick off of them into another spin to allow you to land on the floor. Would you still get damage?
What about a Judo Style throw to the ground... would it just basically let you do 1/2 your might score+(rule of 5), straight to the ground? Thematically they'd be prone, but realistically that may be way too 'optimal'.
I was curious, how would you handle something like the Fastball Special?
Is there any information about necromancy?
I'm curious how the throwing mechanic would work when throwing an ally? Say the fighter wants the barbarian to throw him at the BBEG. Grapple would be an auto fail but there would still be some difficulty in throwing someone.
Do you need to roll to hit to throw someone at someone?
I really like this as a general concept. I do have one question though. Could this turn smaller characters into completely unavoidable projectiles or were you planning to introduce a mechanism for another character to evade them, like a dex save in D&D, or maybe requiring the attacker to hit their physical defense when targeting one character at another?
How much longer are you going to release alpha updates to the rule set, and is the beta rule set going to be available immediately during the kickstarter? I'm kind of interested, but I'm not likely to play it in the next month.
So grappling arts aka Wrestling, Clinches and Submissions is how I rank Melee combat in all forms of gaming. Throws/ shoving etc. are extremely lacking in 5e. I like DC 20's approach.
question: With 4 actions....Can You grab, Hold/pin then throw? Or Hold and Crush( say an armbar or choke.) Really interested in the grappling builds this system will bring out.
What if I throw a Gnome at an ogre? What if I throw an ogre at a gnome?
Does damage reduction apply to shared damage and would that not disincentive throwing people at certain targets?
Im assuming unarmed strikes don't get weapon properties/passives (similar to improvised weapons). However this is not explicitly stated. There are fist weapon properties but I assume those don't apply as unarmed strikes probably require attacking without a weapon.
Considering fist is a weapon type and to use fist weapon properties you would need to be using a fist weapon I don't think unarmed strikes apply since you are not wielding a weapon (or it would not be unarmed).
An unarmed strike is explicitly an attack done using one's own body. When wielding a fist weapon there is an additional thing assisting your attacks. Unless it specifies in any features that you are allowed to use fist weapon properties when using unarmed strikes.
TLDR: Weapon styles/properties can only be used when wielding a weapon you have mastery in and unarmed strikes do not qualify as a weapon.
Edit: The ability to use weapon maneuvers and passives may not be tied to weapon mastery, but possibly features given by classes and talents.
Why would you throw instead of pushing? Would a push be 1 action? Can you push people more than 1 space? 1 damage per space they can't move doesn't seem like a lot of damage. Wouldn't an attack and then a push do more damage?
What is the rule for fall damage? It might be neat that you can fall safely up to half of your martial score.
Evil DM Coach! I would like to use my action point on help action / reaction and graple a friend that was throw at me. Would it reduce our damage on succes and how high roll I need?
After thought if the enemy is throw at me I would like to cach him in the air and throw him further 😈 What I need to do?
I like, but imo having two opposed rolls to throw a creature will lead to throwing failing often, which to me seems un-fun for the sake of simulationism. I think that once the grapple is established, the throw should be inevitable, but the target creature might get a roll or save to partially resist the effect.
This is potentially a complication of the thrown damage calculation, but you could round up the damage on only the stationary character if needed. That represents that the stationary character is facing more acceleration and therefore more force than the thrown character. In other words, the stationary character is reducing the impact for the thrown character. This makes it so getting thrown X extra spaces does X damage always, not more due to double rounding up.
So if I just want to shove or trip somebody, can I spend 2 points to bypass the grapple part?
No. This system has shove and trip options that are 1 AP each.
@@TheLunarPierce I see, nice
The Trip maneuver has been changed to cost 2AP. Therefore, if you have a high Athletics bonus, the Shove Action is technically more efficient than the Trip Maneuver. Trip is still useful for martial builds that don't go in MIG.@@TheLunarPierce
Love it
Yes
🤔 if I'm a half giant and I throw this kobold into an Ogre then do they indeed take equal damage?
I would reduce the damage for the Ogre by say, 1 and increase for the Kobold by 1. Make sense Alan?
I get your point but no reason to make it needlessly complicated
The Ogre would likely have much more health, so it’s proportionately getting hurt less anyway.
yep@@mctoasty1789
🎉
I threw myself at the ground once. I missed. And that's how I learned to fly.
For the Algorithm