I Use build these frames and they are not made for durability. they are made for saving mfg dollars. The tongue should be made from a 5/16 5" c-channel with a cross member support at the bend, then plated on the inside to reinforce the bend. When they heat the bend it weakened the strength of the material. I have repaired so many tongues with this issue. For anyone buying a travel trailer. Take it to a welding shop and get the tongue reinforced with another cross member and have them plate the inside of the tongue where they "heated" it up to bend it.
Where's the Department of Transportation in all of this. If a trailor is unsafe to haul through a construction zone, then shouldn't all trailor manufacturers be liable? Where are the safety standards while using a load leveling hitch?
@@freeradical431 Call me cautious. Before I spend any money on something of this magnitude I go over everything with a fine tooth comb. First by researching checking out consumers reviews and then going to different dealers to find out who has the best reputation as you said buyer beware always.
Holy crap. My brother in law was just about to sign the papers on a brand new Keystone when I showed him this he freaked out and told the dealer to go pound sand. So now he's inspecting every frame he looks at. Great video. Oh, and I think I'm gonna give Geico a call as well.
yup I would have too. My Carson Trailer hit a dip at 40mph overloaded and the frame did not bend on it. truck got air and everything. trailer and hitch just fine.
KEYSTONE IS JUNK !! Actually they all are ! Some brands the more you pay, the more the problems are hidden, but take a few days longer to find . Very poorly manufactured, and super cheap junk parts that don't last long either . I'm a former Parts Counter Person & seen tons of this !
It seems the weight distribution hitch increased the problem. As they are basically a spring stiffener between the tow vehicle and trailer. When the trailer hit the bump, the load the distribution hitch put on the frame, was more than it could handle. Only being 1/8" steel. I don't know if lowering the tension would help avoid the situation or not. It shows that you may want to decide if you really need a distribution hitch or not. Besides looking at the frame thickness on your next trailer. Trailer companies want to make them lighter for towing. But there's some compromise in being lighter. It's good there's videos like, these out there that can educate new RV owners on things they need to be aware of. I was considering a distribution hitch for mine, but I think I'll hold off for now.
Wow! I have no words. When will these major companies realize that social media just like this can destroy them. Will, I ever buy a Keystone travel trailer? Never! Good for you Dustin for making this video.
Years ago I had a 25 ft. 2002 towable (sorry I forgot the brand) we traveled all the around the country and then another 7 weeks in Canada. We still had a couple of days on the warranty. The frame where the axles were attached broke. They wanted to have it towed out of the campground but there was a 10 foot hump in the drive that the flatbed would have to go over. So they paid. For a portable welding 6shop to 🎉come out any plate the cracks. Yep the other side was cracking also. We have a 35 foot four winds Chateau now. 2009. The company did cover the fix. I guess we were pretty lucky!
Last summer, I took my 10 year old Keystone RV (23' Passport) in to a trailer manufacturer to be inspected. I didn't go to a RV dealer, I went to a builder of livestock trailers. It was put up on a lift, and examined from hitch to bumper. Their inspection found the frame to be in pretty good condition (about 50,000 miles on it), with the exception of some of the bolts and straps used to hold things together. They replaced most of the bolts and the straps (holes wallowed out), aligned the axles, moved the wiring to a better location, and did a brake job and re-packed the bearings. I chose to replace the brake controller at that time. Total cost was about $800. When I took it out to bring it home, it was noticeably more steady on the road, and the brakes worked much better. These rigs do take a beating out on the road, so regular examination of the structure and maintenance is necessary. That said, I have heard some stories about 'new' trailers (post-Covid), so buyer beware. Good luck! (I don't trust RV dealers to do structural maintenance).
I've been a welder/fab for 40 years now and the bent tongue was in no way your fault. Every company involved already knew that would happen or they need to get out of the business. Thanks for the Geico punch because they are the best. Hope you and your family had a wonderful time
The company buying the frame was responsible for relaying weight capacity. the frame manufacturer was responsible for inquiring about load capacity. the distance from the front of the tongue to the axle center suggest this should have been a fifth wheel trailer or fitted with a third axle. the tongue tubing definately was too thin even for just the mounting of the weight assist brackets. the tongue should have extended further back and been gusseted where it contacts the frame. these trailers with the extra height are designed to be pulled behind a 4x4 . People think that with the extra height they are designed for off road. the frame manufacture should have a load rating on these frames and a max tongue weight pre determined . if not i believe they are in violation. If so then the trailer manufacturer ignored the weight specifications and are in violation. even the tubing has a strength rating and both manufacturers ignored this also a few bumps in the road should never cause this type of failure.
That’s crazy, personally I think I would’ve held off on the repair for a while and trailered the camper to different RV shows with a sign explaining about what happened. Specifically the part where you are expected to unhitch your trailer to drive through a construction zone. I’m sure that would’ve gotten their attention.
I once had a 1970 travel trailer built by a small manufacturer on Kansas. I marveled at the absolutely massive frame, and wondered why the builder went to so much trouble, expense and added weight. A little investigation led me to the fact that the builder had a long history of building livestock trailers, a situation which would necessarily impose great loads on the vehicle frame. They simply used the identical frame for their line of RV's. It was heavy and clunky - but hell for strong, and never caused me any trouble, or worry.
Absolutely would have to be as well built as my 1990 Stallion 2 horse bumper pull trailer. Livestock horse trailers are hauling precious cargo! Well built is very important.
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It's amazing how some of these companies just don't get it that they are going to lose way more business by not standing behind their products. Thank you so much for posting this video.
The reason they keep doing it is simple. People want the biggest trailer at the cheapest price. Nobody does any research before buying one. A new sucker is born every day.
Standing behind it means admitting guilt and opening the door for every owner with similar problems. They'll try and push it to have customers put it on the insurance company (which Geico did thankfuly did) but Geico should go after the manufacturer for having to pay these claims over sub-standard products.
Oh they fully get the bell curve model. No media will date report this so they will sell millions of units to tith to political parties before their trust has to pay out injuries where then selected, favored law firm will get subsidized along with a handful of clients and tithe that too back to the political party's. Lawsuits don't actually charge the company any longer. , mostly an ins carrier trust fund where claims actually enrich political party's pets. It's now just woven into the business model as another profit leg. Corp puts profits into trust box that invests and they get earnings and when becomes so bloated it pays attorneys as much or more than clients and attorneys then tith to political parties who then place Congress to do their bidding instead of constitutions requirement to rep the constituents of their districts. Not only have the gutted most laws like truth in advertising, but now even child labor laws so your children are free to work cause most will be out of job from downsizing, ai, alcohol and drugs or mental health and injuries.
WOW! I will definitely NOT buy from KEYSTONE. As a future owner, being stranded is a great fear. I’m appalled at their avoidance and eventually lack of support. So glad you posted this, and I hope people shun KEYSTONE for such horrible customer service. Stunned because I’ve been look at the Keystone 1750RD at 3 dealerships, trying to decide, and that is what I wanted. Yeah, not now. Shame on KEYSTONE. Totally appalled.
It's not just Keystone, pretty much every travel trailer uses Lippert frames and other components. Most travel trailers made in the last 10 years are all made in the same place and are all made as quickly and cheaply as possible.
@@dison4linux Yep. I have watched videos from a lawyer who handles consumer automotive issues. He says "If you are planning to buy an RV.......don't". Mirrors my own experiences. They ALL are poor quality that look good on the lot. Lipstick on a pig... (yes I know that there are a few small companies that are outliers, making a good product. But the big names....NO!)
They are all shit. I just got back from an RV show, and I couldn't believe how crappy these things are thown together. Then you look at the price and go well, that seems like a lot of trailer for the money. But that's the catch. They have to make them cheap to reach a price point that people are willing to spend. If you want quality take a look at Airstream and compare prices. Yup, that is what quality costs. These things were built to be towed to your vacation spot and left there, They aren't made for travelling tens of thousands of miles across country. Even on good roads. Keep that in mind when deciding what you are going to use it for. This guy should have known that trailer wasn't going to last 5 mins, getting towed around Alaska. Wait until the interior starts falling apart next. That won't be long, either, but generally easier to fix. And forget dealer service. Better to just do it yourself than waste time waiting for them to do an unsatisfactory repair.
Thank goodness for the internet and social media. Back in the 'old days you had to rely on word of mouth for consumer protection. Thank you for taking the time to do this video!
As a service writer in a dealership I will never purchase an extended warranty. I’ve spent more hours on the phone fighting on the customers behalf than I’ve ever seen them pay out.
All you have to do is sue them for your repairs and they will pay. They know if they go to court they will lose. The Court don’t like the extwarrenty companies. I used to work at a couple different places and they will pay for the repairs if they think there’s any chance you could sue them for it. They lose more money every time they go to court for this. They know they will lose if you take them to court and you have done all your maintenance on your vehicle. It doesn’t matter who does it as long as you have records for the repairs and maintenance that is required by your manufacturer. Jmo
Keystone made a huge mistake trying to runaway from fixing this huge mfg error, i'm in the market looking for a new RV and keystone definitely isn't gonna be one, glad this video showed up on my feed, thank you for your time sharing this with the RVing community
Congrats to you for taking the time and energy to do the research and find the culprits responsible. Also, not just stopping there. But Taki the time and resources to make this video to call them out and educate all of us. Phenomenal... and thanks for doing your part.
Dustin, You did a great job following up with this, and I'm glad to have the same insurance company. Next will be to beef up our frame when I install the generator stand as u described from e-trailer and 30lb tanks on our 20' trailer.
@@frankbodenschatz173 thanks Frank, after doing some calculations we have already gotten to the point that we need new suspension and axles. Trailer is said to be able to have a max weight of 9,900 lbs. the trailer currently has Dexter 4000 lb axles that means they want you to have a max tongue weight of 1900 lbs 😆 so with the new thicker steel we’re already way exceeding the weight that they can handle. We will be making a few more videos moving all of this coming up. Thanks for taking the time to comment. We really appreciate it
You need to be careful beefing up one part of a frame like that. This often just moves the failure point to a new location. You really need to beef up not only the tongue, but the parts of the frame where the tongue is welded or you may well crack or bend that part of the frame.
Yeah I was wondering if that would be the case. I just watched a guy that had to reinforce his entire frame of a really expensive fifth wheel so the problem didn’t get transferred to a new spot!
I learned from my dad how to build trailers when i was a kid. He always intergrated the tong into the frame. he never did this underslung tong. they look like an after thought, and i think they are week. As a welder and mechanic i'm building my own trailer. much thicker and stronger than these cheezie frames on new trailers
@@LTVoyager yes they can be strong but that takes crossbracing. When i see trailers like that they look to me like they got the frame built and than went oh dam we forgot to put on a tong. My dad built a High boy flat deck for hualing fire wood his tong was still intergrated just came down to ball height on a compound angle It look good and could carry 4 cords of wood out of the bush in one load. he even hauled a Vintage John Deere crawler around that he used for logging. These under slungs are done that way because its fast an cheep to build. just like everything is done these days
Thank you for posting this. My wife & I have started looking at a new camper's and now armed with the info of your misfortune I will be paying a lot more attention to the frames on RV's. It's really sad the way they just blew you off and took no responsibility for this. They knew dang well they built it as cheap as possible to maximize profit's and obviously dont give a crap about the end user. IMO this is just another example of corporate greed. I am sure there motto is its warrantied till you drive it off the lot. If the new owner has a problem who gives a crap. Frankly I am so sick of this type of BS it's unreal. Made in USA use to mean something. It use to mean it was quality. Unfortunately not any more. I am glad you got it fixed and can now tow it with out problems.
My brother bought a brand new 26ft winter rated travel trailer. They took it out on the weekends three times in two months. He started noticing a smell after the second trip. He always drained the grey water and sewage every trip. Forth time they tried to go out the smell was so bad he needed a respirator to even go inside the trailer. He hired a licensed plumber. Toilet floor flange was broken during install and they never installed a toilet gasket. Floor and insulation was soaked in sewage. Manufacturer denied everything but offered to cut out and replace the bathroom floor. Between insurance company fighting with manufacturer and a expensive lawyer he received another Brand New unit.
@@user-rj5mx5no8eit is perfectly clear that his brother received the new camper and the attorney more than likely received enough compensation to pay for the brand new Porsche he had ordered but what isn’t clear is what color the Porsche is, automatic or manual, and is it twin turbo or standard engine, lol 😂
Well this totally made up my mind about Keystone. I'm in the market for RV and they just lost a sale because of the experience you just shared. It doesn't restore you, but THAT is at least some justice served. THAT is how we all teach them lessons and force them to do the right business - stop buying from them. It takes solidarity though. I'm doing my part - not buying a Keystone.
I don't believe any mass produced rv manufacturer will own these claims as it will open up thousands in liability. Whether it is keystone or WB, they all will refuse a claim like this for the same reasons OP explained in the video.
Happy with my Jayco 31 RLDS, 10K # Centerline equalizing anti-sway hitch. Over25K miles on all types of roads. No problems. On my third set of tires. If I buy a new one I'm definitely going to be looking at Jaco again. I'm not sure if they are built as well since Thor industries bought them.
I had the jack rub the gate on our 2500 so I put on a slightly longer shank on the tow veh side. It worked magically. Glad nobody was hurt! I almost forgot - make sure to bring your breakaway brake cable closer to the tow vehicle or sharp turns with lock the wheels. Ask how I know...
I'd hook that trailer up and park it right in front of the dealership and let folks know what a POS it is. Shameful the dealership treated you like dirt.
It isn't the dealers fault... they didn't build the trailer. 80 percent of trailers are on a lipert frame these days. Lipert has bought out all the competitors.
@@Mikey-zs4kr very true the only issue I had with the dealer is that they avoided my calls for about a week. I called, text and emailed them because I was unsure which route to take. If they would have answered the phone and said so sorry to hear that. It’s best to go through your insurance then I would have been happy with them
That's horrible. Truly several industry failings. People get killed with that level if negligence. Suprised they don't already have a class action against them. Great vid!
Yes, the narration was spot on: professional, informative, and to the point. Well done. It could be referenced in court when that class action lawsuit you noted gets to court.
Thank you for taking the time and making this video. I've been in the insurance claims business for over 30 years and have seen just about everything when it comes to issues with warranties. The public needs to be aware of those manufacturers and warranty companies that don't honor their obligations when a valid claim is filed.
Shame on keystone and your dealer. Glad your insurance covered it, the upgrade was great. Just move the tanks back that could be easy. Thanks so much for telling the story
@@DustinFaddis if i.lived around you id offer my welding and help for free as i like helping fellow citizens all my neighbors love johnnie !!!!! God bless ☝️👍
As a welder and fabricator I have seen a lot of this over the years. Camper companies are out to make a buck. You did the right thing by using the heavier tube steel. Sorry about the mis- communication with the welder.
Thanks Mike, the welder did a great job. I hope it didn’t sound like I was bashing him. He was very nice and helpful. It was a simple miscommunication. I was just kind of shaking my head laughing because it was just one more thing to add to the situation
As a former parts person, I have seen so many models, whether alledged top dollar brand to the Yugo low dollar brand, ALL RV'S are made very poorly! Everything inside & out. Customers suing my old rv dealership for poor product sales, poor parts service & mechanics who can't fix the customer units correctly, and suing manufacturers for NOT honoring warranties & etc... This made me so sick, that I did not want to go to work. My employer forcing me to LIE to the customers about parts for their units & seeing all the poor workmanship. I left the company. Will never go back.
That metal is scary thin. I remember putting on some wiring clamps that the factory missed on the frame (surprise) and used some sheet metal screws and my half drained dewalt cordless went through it like it was butter. Thank you for calling this stuff out.
Excellent , insightful and informative video. Metallurgy, Engineering, welding and coating processes for manufacturing (mostly offshore and land oilfield) is my professional background, and I was actually looking at new trailers yesterday. and bought small one i can rebuild instead (good frame - crappy condition trailer I can customize and rebuild with quality materials). I was shocked at the thin materials that are being used, the sub par welding (uncut, pinholes, cold laps - to name a few) as well as the the minimal structural cross braces , if any for lateral and torsional stress. One key point you may not have known from a manufacturer standpoint. There has to be a PE (State Certified Professional Engineer - not the same as a regular engineer with a bachelors degree) who signs off and stamps on the structural design for a trailer frame. To "not know what the use or intended weight for design" is a complete lie. There are calculations for weight distributions , torsional (twisting stress), lateral stress (side bend - like when you back into a curb perpendicular) as well as flex (up and down stress) - like a change in the pavement. The material used is usually mild steel like a36 or equivalent with tracking and traceability with registered MTRS (Material test reported from the mill) with a matching strength weld filler material. These processes have to be certified by a lab , and all welders have to be certified to the process and all completed weldments by a certified welding inspector, or a designee under D1.1, or ASME - which also makes them liable in court for damages. So basically, if you know what is entailed with the process, you know how to get the answers you expect, and make them replace their junk product. There is a huge paper trail they are required by law to maintain. If you go on the DOT website, you can find out how intense the criterion is for manufacturing vehicles. This, with making the company provide all the documentation for audit, and the physical evidence of the poor workmanship, would guarantee a win and damages awarded to you, not only for inconvenience but threatening the welfare of you and your family. I would still pursue this legally , both to the manufacturer and the dealer.
Man this makes me nervous. We are purchasing a 33.5 ft trailer and none of this ever came to thought until now. Definitely checking everything before I sign the line. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this video. More than anything you have helped multiple people be aware of potential issues, especially with using a WDH.
Glad to help my friend. That’s why we made the video so that people are aware. Also, as a community I feel we need to keep each other informed of issues because the dealers and manufactures sure won’t.
When I was thinking about purchasing for a new alternative lifestyle I found out from several people have the dealer operate everything, water, electrical, sewer, the whole nine yards while it is there. They leave the factory with the intention that you and the dealer will work out the defects, if you do it right there it is better than having to fix it on the road.
As I get close to retiring, I’ve considered purchasing a Class B RV van. With all of the videos that I’ve seen considering very poor build quality in the RV industry, I’m seriously having second thoughts about a purchase. Maybe I’ll just put a cap on the back of my pickup and camp old school. Thanks for your informative video sir !
We had a travel trailer that was built in Indiana for about 2 years. It had some quality issues and it falling apart always was a concern even though it never did. We sold that and bought an empty cargo van..... Ram Promaster. And we did a conversion ourselves. Totally worth it and we got exactly what we wanted. It's not perfect but knowing that we personally built it - is awesome.
Another comment - these are price point RVs. In reality they shouldn't exist at the price they do for what they have for features but they do. It's not natural and they shouldn't exist. But there is a market for them and profit to be made. Compare a single axle 21 foot Jayco to a similar sized Oliver trailer. They Oliver costs 40k more - it's what a high quality trailer should cost. You're already asking the right questions....the pricing is too good to be true on these Indiana built RVs.
I had a Sheriff's personal truck roll back into my car one night. She had not put the truck fully in park before getting out of the truck. It bent the hood of my Camry and dented the whole front end. She lied about having insurance that night, and tried to say the accident was my fault, the next day. She did not have insurance but Geico paid for all of our repairs without hesitation under our policy, and waived the deductible. Her commander called me a couple days after the accident and asked for my story. He said she should pay for the repairs, and if I had any problems to let him know. In the end, she ended up losing her job.
Thank you for sharing! Now I know that if I ever use a weight distributing hitch I will need to ensure the frame is reinforced at stress points. This is also a good reminder that a pragmatic person should except that when they purchase an RV or trailer they are functionally buying it as is. Warranties are verging on useless, especially extended warranties!
Great video and thank you for your honesty and courage for "calling a cat... a cat"! As an engineer (US Navy/Marine Corps), I can see where this "rig" is going to fail and it saddens me that multiple companies are no longer building RV/travel-trailers with quality and "Made in America" pride but more like "cheap" - they would have them outsourced to China if they could. Thank you for your courage of posting your experience - potential customers need to know about Keystone RVs and Lippert's Manufacturing - there is no excuse for such cheaply-made products, we are not some third world country. May God bless you and as you did, let us stand up for our country! Ciao, L (Veteran)
This really opened my eyes to potential problems. Thanks for taking the time to show and explain all this to us. Sorry you had to go through this aggravating problem.
I recently started working at a RV service center. Each Tech said when I asked, "Who makes the best RV?" each said.... "They are all crap, but you get to decide how money you want to spend on your pile of crap!!!" After being there a few months I sat down and figured out what the weight difference would be Ion a 30 ft. trailer IF they used 1/4 luan plywood instead of 1/8.... the weight difference worked out to be about 150 lbs. with LESS for window/door/compartment cutouts. So 150 lbs. would probably 120 lbs. +/-. If you did that with many of the CHEAP CRAP they put into the units you can see it just doesn't add up for many of us to buy crap made products if we had an option. I know, I know they are trying to get the weights down so it can be towed by smaller rigs, but "Light weight" really means JUNK weight. Making your tongue out of 1/4" steel would add a little more weight to your rig, BUT the difference is worth it. So.... here's my point(s) most of us (at least us who use our brains) would be more than happy to get a little LESS trailer if we got a BETTER trailer. I'd buy a 26' instead of a 28' if the weigh difference went back into a quality trailer... I prototyped a few different trailers back about 7-8 years ago for someone who was thinking about building small WELL BUILT gear haulers to go behind Jeeps/4X4's. After it was all done they were wonderfully shocked and surprised at what we could build within the budget they allowed. And this is considering we were a very small production shop that CARED about things. Unfortunately, they did not go on with their idea to get into the RV marketplace and the few times I bumped into them all they say is, "We certainly missed catching that money making wave." I believe it's still possible IF you approach things wisely!!! Sadly, my partner in biz passed away this year a few months after we decided to close the shop due to his health... I sure wish I could find someone with brains, balls and money to invest as I STILL love the prototypes we did, the employees we had, and the fun doing things all of us loved doing and that was, PLAYING OUTDOORS!!! Also, one of our designs that caught everyone's attention while out testing it I STILL haven't seen done yet. They absolutely loved the simple design/idea(s) we put into it... bullet-proof (not meant literally), catchy looks, small (so it could be "lighter-weight") AND (here's another important point) AFFORDABLE for many people. Still pipe dreaming and always will... Hersh Should anyone have an interest in entertaining production for profits contact me and it the subject bar write "Production."...... e-mail coramdeoiii@hotmail.com
It seems to me that the FRAME should be able to hold at least twice the rated load on the roughest road. I can see axles and springs failing first, but the frame should never fail.
I am a retired welder of over 30 years. I bought a new Forest River pull behind in 2019 and noticed that weak point at the tongue you pointed out and reinforced that area and also reinforced around the spring mounts of the axles. I agree, the frames of RV's are very weak even though they are made of "i" beams. Since now I have my RV paid off, I will be doing a rebuild on a new heavier tongue and beefing up the forward frame from the tongue to just past the axles. I noticed a slight twisting when traveling over uneven ground between the tongue and axles.
WOW, I can't even start to say what a horrible situation and mess!! We all just need to share the heck out of this! I would be suing that company! I can't believe how cheap and horrible Keystone is! I'm so grateful for you sharing this! I will never buy anything from Keystone, or any sister company! With all the emails and like situations you must all get together and sue them! Put them out of business! Such liars and bad business
It was a very horrible situation. Thanks for the support and help by sharing this. I feel off this is shared and talked about enough it will hurt them worse than actually having to fix my issue. Thanks again… we appreciate it
Sound like Thor industries needs to beef up the specs on frames. Thor owns all the tt/rv companies. Thanks for the info. Gotta go an check my frame for my highland ridge now. That brand is under the Thor umbrella. And maybe change the angle on my WDH. Safe travels!
@@maccusswell I’m really hoping that my trailer was just built with some steel that has an issue with it. I’d be really disappointed if this was a really wide spread issue
I’m sorry that this happened to your family. I am a fabricator and have been in the excavation /Road building for many years. Yes the trailer frames are crap. But the contractor has to keep a safe and passible route through there construction zone at all time. It’s great that Geyco stepped up but this could have been resolved through the contractors insurance company also.
It's amazing everybody wants to sell you a warranty but most of them when it comes time to honor that warranty they don't do it. I've just about quit getting extra warranties. Better to save the money and just take care of it yourself because the frustration is beyond doable. Glad that you're in better shape now getting the welding done. Thank you for the video I'm a new subscriber.
yeah I've stopped extra warranties a long time ago. I also don't give a crap about how long standard warranties are because 10 vs 20 year is just 10 more years a company is willing to dodge your calls and lie. It's not 10 years more of coverage that represents their faith in build quality.
I literally just ran out with a set of calipers and checked my frame after watching this . My lippert made frame measured .20" and I'm still freaked out! Great video, thanks!
We had all sorts of axle problems with our Keystone Cougar. I contacted both Lippert and Keystone and got nowhere with them. We went through three sets of tires during the five years we owned the trailer. We probably put a total of about 10k miles traveling with it. On our last trip up the east coast we blew a wheel bearing and were stranded in Myrtle Beach for two weeks while the repair shop looked for a brake drum. The company that made the axles had gone out of business even before the trailer was made. We finally found a machine shop that could fix the drum so we could get home. We traded the trailer in for a Winnebago. We were very open about the problems we had with this trailer. I was very concerned that some unsuspecting person would buy this trailer and have nothing but problems with it or worse get in an accident. The dealership assured us that they would install new axles or sell it as a park model. It was purchased by a local campground that uses it as a rental unit.
As soon as I read the first sentence, I already knew that you most likely failed to perform the required scheduled maintenance on the wheel bearings. And then you said you blew a wheel bearing. There is basically no way to just blow a wheel bearing if you actually do the maintenance. Hopefully, it was a lesson learned, and no one was hurt.
@@KungPowEnterFist you’re jumping to conclusions. We kept up with the maintenance every year. The repair shop checked all the other wheels and they looked fine.
@@Truth_Spoken If you do not do the maintenance on the wheel bearings, then can fail after just a few thousand miles. I was not surprised to find that only a minimal amount of grease had been applied to the bearings on my Cougar when I bought it brand new. RTFM.
As much as I love to get out there, I know these things are built super cheap. Disposable is probably the best description. I baby mine in order to get hopefully 5 good years out of it, fingers crossed. A bent frame would definitely ruin my day. Glad you’re back up and running. Dealers are the worst, once you’ve bought the trailer, they’d rather never hear from you again until you’re ready for the next new trailer. Nature of the beast, unfortunately.
You’re very right about the dealer abandoning you after purchase. They avoided our phone calls during this whole issue. That’s a good way to look at these things. Disposable is a great word.
It seems like too many companies want to save a buck on the way they manufacture or have parts manufactured. Just imagine if Ford or GM can save just a nickel on a bolt in the rear-end of a car and truck. You're talking millions.
This video did give me pause for some inspection of my trailer. The rectangular steel is a bit thin for my taste. However by my eye/crommiter appears to be a 6×2. As you mentioned in another comment taller steel would be stronger. What concerns me is when the load leveling equipment was installed it appears that it was over tightened. I have certainly been over some rough rocky mountain roads and pulled through some camping sites that weren't designed with a 35 ft trailer in mind. With all of that in mind it has served me well through three years now. I had a larger battery tray made to accommodate three large batteries on the tongue. At the back of the trailer the bumper was raised and extended for a generator. Larger wheels with taller tires were added for clearance and concerns over weight capacity . This helped with leveling the trailer as well . The truck that I had when I bought the trailer was rated to pull it but was indeed inadequate. The 3/4 ton 4x4 that I pull it with now is much higher. Even after flipping and adjusting the hitch the trailer went from riding a little high on the rear and low on the front to vice-versa. Another reason for the larger wheel and tire. There's certainly a lot to consider when moving a large vehicle . Something that I have a lot of experience with as a professional commercial driver. This being said it's important to pay attention to details and never stop learning. Enjoyed the video and thank you for the food for thought.
I feel your pain buddy. You are not alone. I bought a new 2022 Passport from Keystone. Number of issues within the first few months of owning. I tell you, what a nightmare dealing with the dealer and or Keystone. Just like your experience...they tried blaming it on me...and the warranty was worthless. It took WAY too much time and energy to get any help at all. Keystone didn't even respond ... they are a horrible company and people need to know. We need to stop buying CRAP so they go under. I will check my frame and see if it is made from Lippert and the thickness of the steel. THANK you for sharing!!!
Thanks for this video. My son owns a Keystone and travels with his two young sons. That is not an acceptable failure and the frame company must not have any engineers working for them. It doesn't take a genius to know 1/8 steel is not strong enough for that size trailer.
Bro you have sure enough enlightened me!!!!! I was seriously considering buying a 36' Keystone, but not now and probably never. I checked my frame on my old '98 and I think I'll hold on to it for a while. I'd rather invest in renovations and travel in safety rather than subject myself to what you guys did. Thanks for your time and effort and safe travels.
I think renovations might be the smarter route Don. Even if you choose to buy new… now you have a few things to look at. Learn from our mistakes and check the frame and suspension components before falling in love with the floor plan
I bought my first RV after over 40 years last May. Prior to closing the deal, the personnel at the dealership were like ants on a cube of sugar with my wife and I. We had one minor issue they had promised to deal with afterward. It was like the dealership turned into a ghost town... no answered phone calls, no returned emails, even texts to the salesman's cell phone bounced back as "not a valid #. We called him from a new number, and he answered, so he had blocked us is what we figured. Service in the U.S., it's becoming a sad state of affairs. Absolutely unbelievable how thin of tubing wall they used on your rig.
I think the dealership is the worst part about the situation. Feeling abandoned and left out to dry as they avoided calls really shocked us. They seemed great and way nicer than other places we went
We had a 36’ Montana. The frame went out!!! We took Keystone and our dealer to court. It took 2 years. But we won. The judge refused to give them the trailer back. They said they would resell it. So it is a matter of public record in the Indiana county of Pulaski. So they lied to you about never having frame problems!
Indiana is probably one of the largest rv manufacturing states and they have very tough lemon laws here. There is an rv lemon law attorney that won a huge lawsuit for a retired couple that had purchased a super “C” class rv. There is a video here on YT, sorry, can’t think of his name, but he is good, real good!!!!! BTW, the rv was built in Indiana, it maybe called “Nexxus” or “Nessix”. The two companies mentioned, one is very good, the other is crap. Please look it up and share
Yowza; what a nightmare ! I'm sad to say I own a Keystone, and rarely tow it so I've had no problems yet. I think I'll do a little preemptive work on the frame though; just to avoid this scenario. This video was very well done. Thanks for sharing.
I used to work for Lippert as a Maintenance Fabricator I personally have seen the welding issues on their frames. From undercut welds to holes blown through the frame, improper weld with minimal penetration. It all gets covered up with powder coat so it makes it hard to see. Good luck to everybody with frame issues.
Hello; Thanks for your excellent video and for sharing all your issue with us! Very well done. I would like to share our story with the 2014 Keystone Springdale that we own. We live in northern Idaho where even the freeways have very bad frost heaves. 3 years ago we made a trip on I 90 to Missoula Mt. and when we returned I noticed that the tires on both axles were wearing and were tipped in on top so the tires were wearing the inside of the tire but the rear axle was the worst. I called a trailer frame shop in Spokane Wa. (2hrs away) about the issue and he said he repairs several of these each year. He had me use a level to measure how much the wheels were tipped in, top to bottom and I found that they were all a little different but they all were between 1/4" and 3/4" in on top, which proved that both axles were bent. I am going to save a lot of time here and just say that my awesome insurance company State Farm payed the full $5000.00 dollar bill less our deductible. The owner of the shop said that it is from the horrible roads that we have here in Northern Idaho. But I see hundreds of trailers going up and down the road in our area and I always wonder if anyone else has ever had this issue? Anyway about a year later I found that the tires on the rear axle were wearing on the inside again and I found that just the rear axle was bent. Once again my insurance (State Farm) agreed to pay for it but they wanted something down to prevent this from continuing to happen and so did I! They were beginning to blame the trailer manufacturer as was I. This time the frame shop said that he had in the past welded steel from one side of the frame across to the other in front of the front axle and behind the rear axle to take the twist out of the frame and that has helped to stop that from bending the axles. I ask him if he thought that I should up size the axles since I think they only use the minimum weight classification axles due to cost and he said he didn't think we needed to do that yet. I have a friend with a different brand of trailer that had issues with his axles and he up sized his to take care of the problem. So anyway so far the added structural reinforcement of the frame in the area of the axles has prevented any further bent axles, but to say the least I have become paranoid of our bad roads, too much speed and the bouncing of the trailer causing another bent axle. We like our trailer and I guess I will up size the axles if it happens again. I just wish that they would build them strong enough to use as "travel trailer". And yes all of this happened with both gray tanks empty and the black tank empty and just cloths and some food in the trailer. NOT OVER WEIGHT! I am now going to look at the tongue and will probably box it in. I would like to hear if anyone else has had or heard of this problem? Idaho traveler
Thanks for the detailed story. I’d never considered the stress that weight distribution hitches put on the trailer frame, but it makes perfect sense. I’ll be much more careful with that in the future, when I go “off road”.
@@C0braChicken2 wow, sorry to hear that. A lot of people claim it’s the weight distribution hitch. Since posting this video I’ve heard about half of the people that have this same issue have no weight distribution hitch
3mm Steel is for fence posts not to carry this load. The distribution hitch has nothing to do with poor work in engineering. This cost cutting could have cost lives.
@@DustinFaddis yeah, even the picture you showed of the other trailer in the tow yard didn't appear to have a WD hitch... So it's not simply the hitch.
I learned through years of experience it does not pay to lose your patience in this situation as the innocent man ends up being prosecuted never again I follow the law even if I don't agree with it
Oooh thank you for this video. I’ve been researching campers for a future purchase and had not even thought of the frame construction and what size steel is used. Now when we actually go shopping I will duck under and check. Keystone is crossed off my list as a manufacturer (it WAS a brand I had in my list for the amenities). A more comprehensive list is now in order.
That isn’t something we were concerned about either sue. My recommendation moving forward is inspect the frame and suspension first before falling in love with the floor plan
Thank you for this, this is my first camper, I was homeless and this was a fixer upper, so I've bought it and place it in RV park, now I am thinking of moving to another park, looking at what you have went through my camper might not be able to be moved, Man thank you I have to think of another way, love your sharing 🎉❤
Thanks for sharing your story. Opened my eyes even more. Some of those companies are garbage. After seeing the way they treated you, they won’t be getting my business!
Thank you for the posting. We had our NEW trailer serious bent frame damage - Trailmanor 2027 - when traveling to Baja Mexico. We were on MX 1 about 12 miles north of a small pueblo. I had to leave the trailer along side of the road and traveled with my truck to town. I found a Mexican man in his 30s. I showed him a photo of the damage. He grabbed a bucked, a chains, some steel latches and asked me to take him to our trailer. Before long he had the chain around the trailer hitch and frame in such a way we could go ultra slow to town. There he got out his welding equipment. Jacked of the trailer and began welding the frame together. After about 40 minutes he was done! Looked Okay - but we had another 600 miles to travel. We did by faith and arrived two days later on the East Cape. Seemed everything held up fine. I contacted Trailmanor. Send them photos. They said the was a new issue for them because I wondered if they should recall trailers. My family could have been seriously injured in an accident or worse. Trailmanor didn’t deny anything. They said their nearest dealer was up toward Los Angeles and gave me the information. About a month later we were back to San Diego and then scheduled a trip to their dealership to look things over. All that time and travel back that Mexcian’s welding work - which cost me about $30 USD (although I gave him $50) seemed to hold up fine. The Dealership looked it over. Had a certified welder come to inspect it. He told me he had never seen any better welding work repair and everything was fine. He then said that he did equivalent to reinforcement welding on the other side of the frame in case that was weak too. Funny you mentioned about the trailer being over weight. LOL. My dealer said our trailer must have been overweight, which is a laugh with some basic luggage, cooler, etc. - nothing out of the ordinary weight. NOW? After you posted this I wonder who makes the frames for Trailmanor? We really liked our Trailmanor. Great service. However, that bent frame hitting the pavement at 50 MPH is a scary sound when you are in the middle of nowhere. Honestly, God showed up and got us out of that mess.
After watching the video its very clear what happened. You stated y'all went down a dip that coupled with the weight distribution transfer was an accident waiting to happen. Also what were the distribution bars rated for? Were they over for safety? That additional force of the dip on the bars trying to transfer weight to the front bent your frame. Always use bigger hitch than needed but smaller bars than needed!
Time for another update! Something I hadn't mentioned before, as I was trying to stay on-topic with the video, is that we've also had consistent trouble with the aluminum siding on our trailer. The day I picked it up I got about 3 miles down the road before I saw it bubbling out, and turned around to go back to the dealer. They actually did do a great, fast job securing THAT particular portion of siding. Needless to say, it's happening in other places now. I've tried since the beginning of January to get ahold of our service advisor, even copying the service manager on a couple of emails. No reply The last time we had the trailer on the road, my wife finally had enough and said "that's it! Whatever you have to do, GET RID OF THIS TRAILER!" She continued by saying how she can't stand to see how much it stresses me out to tow it, and then add in all the problems and lack of communication from the dealer. I'm VERY pleased to say we'll be picking up our new travel trailer in 4 days! We got VERY lucky in that, just as the cost of new units has gone up outrageously in the past year, so has trade-in value. The dealer we're getting the new unit from is fully aware of all the problems and concerns I have and they have been excellent to deal with. And no, it's absolutely NOT a keystone product. I look forward to a (hopefully) positive review of the new trailer in the coming months!
Hi I’m Mike I’m sorry about your trailer issues. May I ask what brand you got? I know jayco has a decent 2+3 year warranty and all or most of the videos I seen grand design has been good on customer service. I have a 2018 rockwood roo 23IKSS really no issue as of today. I have seen a lot of lippert frames go bad on videos. Well enjoy your new trailer.
@@mikeritchie2189 my trailer is a 2021 keystone Springdale. It comes with a 5 year warranty but they said because it happened while towing that it was considered an accident and not any fault of the manufactures of the rv or frame. It was unbelievable. I couldn’t imagine a trailer that could not handle a well graded dirt road on a major highway. So, basically the warranty meant absolutely nothing.
Just a heads up Forrest River is not a lot better on build quality. I went from keystone hideout to apex by coachman an FR company to wildcat fifthwheel also a FR company. These things are crap build quality. Baby them and get every tiny thing you find wrong fixed under warranty at the start. Watched a video on here from dealer selling grand design products before they got bought out and they said straight up their other lines come in messed up from the manufacturer and their service department ends up being the step of the assembly line.
New travel trailers are made super cheap nowadays.They are junk! I've had two so far and workmanship is terrible! Thank goodness I kept my old 1981 Prowler and my 2008 Gulfstream Kingsport. No issues with either one. Don't have the newer ones anymore.
When I used to make trailers I would reinforce the draw bars with 14mm rod and use 75x100x5mm flat bar and make a coat hanger underneath the draw bar. Depending on the trailer and having asked how much they really intend to load on the trailer I would also do this on the crossbars supporting the floor if needed.
Man this could be a way bigger problem for Keystone and other manufacturers if they don't publicly address it. All it takes is one family to die in a wreck because they lost control of their trailer when the frame bent. But I suppose it's a calculated risk they are willing to take. Scary stuff either way.
I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember the 1970 Ford Pinto that would go up like a roman candle with the slightest rear end collision because the gas tank was unprotected & right behind the rear bumper. Literally hundreds of cars burned with numerous people being burned to death or severely injured. Ford developed a cost-benefit analysis entitled Fatalities Associated with Crash Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires. Seems it was cheaper to litigate the accidents & death's than retrofit all those Pinto's.
@@n.e.c.6389 WRONG ! Nut Case Nader " made his millions fraudulently suing and won that way FACTS : A man and his family stopped off a highway and filled his Pinto wagon gas tank with gas , LEFT HIS GAS CAP ON THE PUMP , pulled out on the highway at a red light , the light turned green and a CAR REAR - ENDED THE PINTO GOING 60 M.P.H. ! ( Where does the gas go WITHOUT A GAS CAP ? )
@@n.e.c.6389 The government needs to stop throwing their hands up, and arrest whoever makes the decision. If the corporation plays dumb and destroys evidence, it should be the CEO sitting in jail until the company can figure it out.
Made in America used to mean something. We have a Forest River Salem. Although my wife loves the floor plan, it ends there. Because we are DIY people we are in constant upgrade mode. Incredibly cheap products made even worse with shoddy workmanship. We just got our frame patch welded by the axles, as a hairline crack was found last inspection. Good on you for highlighting what everyone knows. Cheap is as cheap does! Happy trails (from here on in).
I am really impressed by your calm demeanor. I'm pretty sure I'd be hopping mad about all the run around and failure to take responsibility you encountered. It is shameful that these companies can sell you an extended warranty that provides no help whatsoever. My advice, is learn how to weld. The modifications you need to make the improvements you want are not so difficult that you couldn't do them yourself. It will save you money and provide you exactly what you want. Also future changes are easy as well.
Dustin thanks for an informative video of the current sitation with the RV industry. I'm nearing 70 yrs of age and have been exposed to the Industry fo nearly 60 of those years as my parents had TTs when I was young. I remember Dad renting a 12' Scottman and taking X country trips with many construction zones in the roadways that had frost and water errosion without frame damage and using a WD. We also had a16' Fleetwood TT in mid 60's Dad pulled on the beach with a '63 Impala that luckily had a 250hp 327 and power glide trans to get r done. Theu drug a '28 5th wheel over the US including Alaska and Canada in early 80s without frame damage. I have owned several TTs and 3 5th wheels over the last 30yrs and have witnessed the decline in the Industry to build a robust product for the consumer's use. I have taken my trialers '80s Terry '24 TT, '90 35 Alfa Toyhouse 5th wheel, '05 KZ '38' New Vision into the back country on forest roads, desert jeep roads over rocks, roots, culverts x sfreams. None of the trailers had Lippert frames and non had structural failures or deformation. My '14 40' Keystone Fuzion does have a Lippert frsme and I have observed movement in the frame over the pinbox attachment. I watch carefully when hitching and unhitching to ensure mimimum stress on this area as it is well documented on YT re Keystone/Lippert frame fsilures especially on Montana 5th wheels.. Unfortunately IMHO the Industry is profit driven and quality in design and construction of RVs to meet the Marketed usuage i.e. boon docking on primative campsites and roads is not now considered Normal Use which now encompasses paved roads and RV Parking Lots. There's only a few trailer manufacturers left building their own frames Northwoods being one of the larger of the mass produced.ones YMMV Happy Camping
Thanks for sharing Bill. They sure don’t build them like they used to. I’ll look into north wood in the future. I love to rv so I won’t change that but now at least I know what to expect and what companies to stay far away from.
Sorry you had to go through all this and thanks for sharing. This is why I never buy an extended warranty. They are basically useless and just puts more money in the pockets of the dealership. Heard way too many stories of them not covering what needs covered for some silly reasons.
Thanks Dustin! Sorry to hear about your experience! And thank you to all others that commented! With the initial CV19 lockdown, I decided to do some remodeling to my Keystone 35ft BH. Nothing but cheaply built. I wrote it off to being a weight savings thing. After seeing your vid and reading some of your viewers comments, you got me rethinking this whole RV thing and how much I'd have to put into it just for peace of mind and preventive frame issues. All the best, -Mike
Thanks for the support. It is all about weight savings which is obviously getting dangerous at this point. Hopefully this gives you some areas to look into strengthening. It does make you wonder if it’s worth dumping a large amount of money into these. The older keystones were great. We didn’t have any issues with our 2007. It would be worth doing some research on your model. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
I used to be an engineer for several different RV companies for many years. All the companies used Lippert frames. Lippert would build frames to whatever specifications we wanted but would give recommendations if they spotted weak points. As a cautionary point, by extending the length of the tongue the hitch weight of the trailer has been increased. I would be cautious about mounting a generator to the front of the unit and increasing the tongue weight even further.
Thanks for the recommendation Mike. I agree, we won’t be adding weight up front. Maybe just a plastic box to store sewer hoses because the bumper is too small for them to fit
I think now many (not all) manufacturers are farming out their frames to companies like Lippert. I have an older Nash travel trailer built by Northwood Manufacturing and at that time they built their own frames in their own factory in Oregon. They even had a video showing their frame assembly plant, and how they are built. I will keep my old Nash until it turns to dust, because it is so reliable and well built.
If you're an engineer then I'm a rocket surgeon. Lengthening the tongue does NOT increase the pin weight. It REDUCES it. Thought experiment for the wanna be engineers out there. 8' trailer 4' tongue pin weight 100lbs. 8' trailer 12' tongue = pin weight 50lbs. 3x the distance to half the pin weight. If I told you to manually lift the 4' tongue or the 12' tongue which would be easier? What if I extended the tongue 20'? This stuff should be taken seriously. Granted nobody is going to extend anything as far as my example, but what if the pin weight was already at the bare minimum? Now it's too light and that is deadly. It also gives the uneducated the impression they can carry more load until they reach the previous pin weight. Now the entire structure between the first axle and the pin is under a lot of additional stress. What I didn't her covered was water and grey tanks. If they are in front of the axle that adds a whole lot of static and dynamic stress. 8lbs per gallon rough numbers. 8.3 to be more accurate and with larger tanks as the error factor is exponential. 100 gallon tank going over a drop can exert well over 1500 lbs of force (about 2x static weight)
@@Look_What_I_Did I thought the same thing. "With a long enough lever you can move the world" old adage comes to mind. Longer tongue equals longer lever. Good post my friend.
Thanks for this fantastic video! Our family is looking into a travel trailer purchase and your video is like gold to us. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. We have scratched off 3 RV makers who use the same 1/8 inch steel and we check all of the hitch designs very closely.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video and share this issue. We bought a 2021 Gulf Stream with a Lippert frame and I was looking at the thin steel the other day while adding a larger battery tray. For piece of mind I was entertaining the idea of reinforcement on the frame since our roads up here can get pretty bad at times. Your story confirmed my suspicions.
For some of those that want to really beef up the frame, find a section of 'C' channel steel that will fit inside the existing channel and weld it in there. Even bolting it in, is strong if you don't have a welder or an experienced welder around.
@@paulciley3727 The box is big enough to pull a fully terminated harness through - or if you really get stressed about it you could run it in conduit on the outside (split plastic conduit (intended for electrical emergency repairs) is available).
He's right. Heavier duty trucks (not your 3500, a CDL dump truck or tractor trailer) use this, sometimes in triple layers of C channel. Issue is long term rust in between the beams.
That's why I spent twice the amount for a Lance than that of a comparable sized competitor. The Lance has a Norco manufactured High Strength Low Alloy frame that is bolted/riveted vs welded and Dexter torsion axles vs a sprung axle design that the less expensive manufactures use. This combination offers the trailer to absorb more suspension undulations with some frame flexing instead of cracking. Their weight savings revolve around the box being fabricated with an aluminum frame, composite Azdel wall and floor panels and imported lightweight cabinet plywood vs compromising the frame structure. As an engineer w/25 yrs as a manufacturing manager for a large multinational corporation, I was appalled at the build quality of virtually the entire RV industry. It harkens back to the US automotive industry of the 60's and 70's. Lance, AirStream and inTech were the only ones on my short list...
Thanks Pat, I was looking into lane but I unfortunately settled for what I could get up here in Alaska. There was a two year wait on other models that we wanted.
I always thought weight distribution hitches moved weight up toward the front axle of the tow vehicle. Your experience is horrific! We have an Arctic Fox travel trailer which must have a thicker frame than your Keystone. On several trips from our home in Reno to Houston, we hit some HUGE potholes that scared the s*** out of us. Full water tanks, and full propane tanks. Truck bed loaded with stuff for our several-month stays in Houston. Twice I had to have a trailer axle straightened - and buy new tires that wore unevenly due to the pothole bent axles. But, the frame never bent. The trailer is 11 years old and just keeps on truckin'. Thanks for your efforts and for producing this informative video.
Thank you for such a good job documenting the situation. I was in the market for a travel trailer and went to a dealer to look at new units just to get an idea what I would like. Brand new trailers were literally falling apart in the parking lot. That’s why the wife and I decided to convert a school bus instead of going with a trailer or an RV.
We have that exact same trailer! I will definitely be looking into my frame and tongue setup now. The manufacturers sure don't over build anything anymore. Bare minimum seems to be the rule of the land these days. Thank you for sharing this. Now I am seriously worried.
I was told by an industry inside to NEVER buy anything manufactured by Keystone, Forest River, and Dutchman among other names I can’t recall. My aunt & uncle had 2 Travel trailers made by Jayco. We bought a 32 footer made by Jayco based on their experience. We never had issues other than a leak in the door window. This was fixed promptly by our local dealer. We used it for 10 years without a problem. We only quit camping because it became too much to handle due to health issues.
I agree that people should stay away from a handful of companies. Glad to hear you had no major issues in your travels. Sorry to hear you’ve stopped due to health issues. Thanks for taking the time to comment Brent. Take care.
Great video. This shows how warranties are not worth buying. I have learned warranties with house hold goods are also not worth the trouble. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I learned from my father to never pay for a warranty on anything but a car or house. He taught me if your fridge breaks, it is cheaper to fix it than pay for a warranty that wont. I work as a general maintenance tech for a large corporation. I have found this applies to factory warranties on most equipment as well. Just about every time i submit something undervwarranty their techs find a way to claim whatever happened could not be covered under warranty. Then I end up paying for their techs travel charge, time and the repair. If I can fix it myself I do. It is cheaper in the long run. Terrible lesson to learn.
Great video, it was an eye opener on the possibility of the frame bending in front. I always know that the RV industry mostly build everything to the bare bones. I have seen where the axles attach to the frame break away. It's too bad we have to reinforce everything in an RV to make it safe for us.
My parents own a budget travel trailer from the 70s. The A frame has started to bend upwards... Not as severe as you experienced, but a few inches. It took a lot of use, and abuse (20+ hunting trips up rough roads) Even back then the design was suspectable to this failure
Its not necessarily the design of the trailer, to many people put to much weight in there trailer, they all have a limit, then put weight distribution hitch on witch actually pushes down on the hitch, and tow it with a under sized vehicle so they have to tighten the hitch even more, then i saw a video of a couple driving down a wiinding road going through big dips draging the rear of the trailer on the ground, so they were putting the weight of the trailer on the hitch and the end of the frame, its no wonder these are bending and braking, they are made to hold 1000 lbs not 6000 lbs +++
@@kenhall7517 I agree in most cases. Our trailer claims it can hold 1800lbs of junk. We only had around 500 . I had a pop up trailer that we loaded with more than that
What a nightmare! I’ve got a little 17’ Casita trailer and it’s frame used thicker steel than that! At least you made it home and you got a decent story out of it! Glad everyone was okay.
I'm a welder, when I first saw your trailer Frame I could see the trailer. Frame is to (small). Not only is it to thin, but it needs to be larger like, 2"×8"× full length and 5/16" thick. I welded on trailer frames before, your length alone is enough reason, without the weight !! Good Luck
I appreciate you sharing your experience with all three of the companies you were in contact with. You got screwed by Keystone and Lippert on this. Both should have stepped up and helped with this. I will stay away from Keystone for sure. I hope you have better experiences going forward.
We just want to get the word out so people know what they’re getting into when purchasing. Hopefully enough people will see this video and force a little change in these companies.
This was an issue back when we purchased our trailer in 2011. We were doing research and found a lot of complaints about the lippert frames cracking and bending so we looked for manufacturers that did not use them. We ended up buying from Outdoor RV and they build their own frames on-site. They also don’t put the a-frame below the I-beams. The A-frame is put through the front cross plate and welded top to bottom and gives you a ton extra clearance. They market their trailers for off road use in the Pacific Northwest. I have hauled our ORV Backcountry 26FS trailer with the distribution hitch installed into the backcountry on jeep trails and switch backs with no issues.
We were looking for an outdoor RV but up here in Alaska they told us we would have to wait around 2 years. We’re only in Alaska for 3 years total and just wanted it to explore Alaska. Unfortunately that’s what we get for not waiting haha
Thanks for posting this. Your video and others like it confirms I don’t want to spend my money on any form of RV. They are all prone to expensive problems.
We had a similar situation with a Lippert frame became twisted on our second trip out with a brand new Forest River Wolf Pup. Took it to the purchasing dealer and confirmed there was an issue but Lippert wanted a 12 page report filled out in order to even file the claim. Ridiculous service from them on a brand new bumper tow camper. The frame of the trailer is flimsy and thin material and the welds weren't much better. Never will I ever purchase another lippert frame camper!
Thank you for sharing this information. Would’ve never guessed that they would use such A week frame in the front. And not warning you about it with a weight distribution hitch.
One of the things I like about Northwood Manufacturing (makes Artic fox, wolf creek and a few others) is they make their own frames. One of the only ones in the industry that does afaik. Their trailers are heavier but so much better built than most of what’s out there.
I was thinking about purchasing a new camper/ trailer next year. After watching this video, and seeing how all the companies just washed their hands of the situation. Along with the outrageous prices, I am probably just going to get out of RV'ing. Thanks for the video and information.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I will make sure i will get an offroad rated trailer for sure for my zr2. I love your channel and i am thankful you guys are safe. No one needs to go through what you did.
Thank you for the feedback. I’m glad you enjoy the channel. We’re probably going with a rooftop tent for our zr2. Do you have a camper in mind that you’re looking at?
@@disabledcamperhardnocks8068 I’ve seen those in person. They look really well built. The suspension is great. I haven’t heard anything on customer service but I’d expect it’s good if they put that much care into their build quality.
@@DustinFaddis you can get a knock off from china 1/3 the price. And if i understood what you said. It always nice to help a fellow brother in arms. The r values are awesome but the exp 6 is to heavy even for my zr2 diesel to be comfortable. Thats why i am stuck with getting the 4.
@@disabledcamperhardnocks8068 we appreciate the support. I agree the exp6 would be too big for the zr2. I’ll look forward to seeing pics of your exp4 when you get it. Are you on Instagram?
I Use build these frames and they are not made for durability. they are made for saving mfg dollars. The tongue should be made from a 5/16 5" c-channel with a cross member support at the bend, then plated on the inside to reinforce the bend. When they heat the bend it weakened the strength of the material. I have repaired so many tongues with this issue. For anyone buying a travel trailer. Take it to a welding shop and get the tongue reinforced with another cross member and have them plate the inside of the tongue where they "heated" it up to bend it.
Thanks for calling those companies out. They need to be sued for their incompetence in making their frames.
Glad to help
Where's the Department of Transportation in all of this. If a trailor is unsafe to haul through a construction zone, then shouldn't all trailor manufacturers be liable? Where are the safety standards while using a load leveling hitch?
It was probably an overly loaded weight distribution hitch.
Its a buyer beware world! Educate yourself.......on what a well buillt trailer looks like.
@@freeradical431
Call me cautious. Before I spend any money on something of this magnitude I go over everything with a fine tooth comb. First by researching checking out consumers reviews and then going to different dealers to find out who has the best reputation as you said buyer beware always.
Holy crap. My brother in law was just about to sign the papers on a brand new Keystone when I showed him this he freaked out and told the dealer to go pound sand. So now he's inspecting every frame he looks at. Great video. Oh, and I think I'm gonna give Geico a call as well.
yup I would have too. My Carson Trailer hit a dip at 40mph overloaded and the frame did not bend on it. truck got air and everything. trailer and hitch just fine.
KEYSTONE IS JUNK !! Actually they all are ! Some brands the more you pay, the more the problems are hidden, but take a few days longer to find . Very poorly manufactured, and super cheap junk parts that don't last long either . I'm a former Parts Counter Person & seen tons of this !
It seems the weight distribution hitch increased the problem. As they are basically a spring stiffener between the tow vehicle and trailer. When the trailer hit the bump, the load the distribution hitch put on the frame, was more than it could handle. Only being 1/8" steel. I don't know if lowering the tension would help avoid the situation or not. It shows that you may want to decide if you really need a distribution hitch or not. Besides looking at the frame thickness on your next trailer. Trailer companies want to make them lighter for towing. But there's some compromise in being lighter. It's good there's videos like, these out there that can educate new RV owners on things they need to be aware of. I was considering a distribution hitch for mine, but I think I'll hold off for now.
@FITNESSOVER45I've seen a couple videos on Black series shoeing and describing the exact situations you describe. Pure junk and endless headaches.
Hopefully he bought an older used trailer. New trailers like everything after plandenic sucks.
Wow! I have no words. When will these major companies realize that social media just like this can destroy them. Will, I ever buy a Keystone travel trailer? Never! Good for you Dustin for making this video.
Agreed. Look what social media is doing to Budweiser and Target.
Years ago I had a 25 ft. 2002 towable (sorry I forgot the brand) we traveled all the around the country and then another 7 weeks in Canada. We still had a couple of days on the warranty. The frame where the axles were attached broke. They wanted to have it towed out of the campground but there was a 10 foot hump in the drive that the flatbed would have to go over. So they paid. For a portable welding 6shop to 🎉come out any plate the cracks. Yep the other side was cracking also. We have a 35 foot four winds Chateau now. 2009. The company did cover the fix. I guess we were pretty lucky!
@@thekinarbo inbreds and morons boycotting a beer is bit different!
Last summer, I took my 10 year old Keystone RV (23' Passport) in to a trailer manufacturer to be inspected. I didn't go to a RV dealer, I went to a builder of livestock trailers. It was put up on a lift, and examined from hitch to bumper. Their inspection found the frame to be in pretty good condition (about 50,000 miles on it), with the exception of some of the bolts and straps used to hold things together. They replaced most of the bolts and the straps (holes wallowed out), aligned the axles, moved the wiring to a better location, and did a brake job and re-packed the bearings. I chose to replace the brake controller at that time. Total cost was about $800. When I took it out to bring it home, it was noticeably more steady on the road, and the brakes worked much better. These rigs do take a beating out on the road, so regular examination of the structure and maintenance is necessary. That said, I have heard some stories about 'new' trailers (post-Covid), so buyer beware. Good luck! (I don't trust RV dealers to do structural maintenance).
I've been a welder/fab for 40 years now and the bent tongue was in no way your fault. Every company involved already knew that would happen or they need to get out of the business. Thanks for the Geico punch because they are the best. Hope you and your family had a wonderful time
The company buying the frame was responsible for relaying weight capacity. the frame manufacturer was responsible for inquiring about load capacity. the distance from the front of the tongue to the axle center suggest this should have been a fifth wheel trailer or fitted with a third axle. the tongue tubing definately was too thin even for just the mounting of the weight assist brackets. the tongue should have extended further back and been gusseted where it contacts the frame. these trailers with the extra height are designed to be pulled behind a 4x4 . People think that with the extra height they are designed for off road. the frame manufacture should have a load rating on these frames and a max tongue weight pre determined . if not i believe they are in violation. If so then the trailer manufacturer ignored the weight specifications and are in violation. even the tubing has a strength rating and both manufacturers ignored this also a few bumps in the road should never cause this type of failure.
We need to vote with our money. Boycott these companies ,spread the word!
That’s crazy, personally I think I would’ve held off on the repair for a while and trailered the camper to different RV shows with a sign explaining about what happened. Specifically the part where you are expected to unhitch your trailer to drive through a construction zone. I’m sure that would’ve gotten their attention.
That would have been great publicity for these issues
I once had a 1970 travel trailer built by a small manufacturer on Kansas. I marveled at the absolutely massive frame, and wondered why the builder went to so much trouble, expense and added weight. A little investigation led me to the fact that the builder had a long history of building livestock trailers, a situation which would necessarily impose great loads on the vehicle frame. They simply used the identical frame for their line of RV's. It was heavy and clunky - but hell for strong, and never caused me any trouble, or worry.
I love u
Absolutely would have to be as well built as my 1990 Stallion 2 horse bumper pull trailer. Livestock horse trailers are hauling precious cargo! Well built is very important.
Guys, HERE is The Savior
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
I had a 70s Nomad pop-up. That thing had a massive frame.
It's amazing how some of these companies just don't get it that they are going to lose way more business by not standing behind their products. Thank you so much for posting this video.
The reason they keep doing it is simple. People want the biggest trailer at the cheapest price. Nobody does any research before buying one. A new sucker is born every day.
Standing behind it means admitting guilt and opening the door for every owner with similar problems. They'll try and push it to have customers put it on the insurance company (which Geico did thankfuly did) but Geico should go after the manufacturer for having to pay these claims over sub-standard products.
Oh they fully get the bell curve model. No media will date report this so they will sell millions of units to tith to political parties before their trust has to pay out injuries where then selected, favored law firm will get subsidized along with a handful of clients and tithe that too back to the political party's.
Lawsuits don't actually charge the company any longer.
, mostly an ins carrier trust fund where claims actually enrich political party's pets. It's now just woven into the business model as another profit leg. Corp puts profits into trust box that invests and they get earnings and when becomes so bloated it pays attorneys as much or more than clients and attorneys then tith to political parties who then place Congress to do their bidding instead of constitutions requirement to rep the constituents of their districts. Not only have the gutted most laws like truth in advertising, but now even child labor laws so your children are free to work cause most will be out of job from downsizing, ai, alcohol and drugs or mental health and injuries.
WOW! I will definitely NOT buy from KEYSTONE. As a future owner, being stranded is a great fear. I’m appalled at their avoidance and eventually lack of support. So glad you posted this, and I hope people shun KEYSTONE for such horrible customer service. Stunned because I’ve been look at the Keystone 1750RD at 3 dealerships, trying to decide, and that is what I wanted. Yeah, not now. Shame on KEYSTONE. Totally appalled.
“Keystone” is made by “Thor”. Good luck lmao
It's not just Keystone, pretty much every travel trailer uses Lippert frames and other components. Most travel trailers made in the last 10 years are all made in the same place and are all made as quickly and cheaply as possible.
@@dison4linux Yep. I have watched videos from a lawyer who handles consumer automotive issues.
He says "If you are planning to buy an RV.......don't". Mirrors my own experiences. They ALL are poor
quality that look good on the lot. Lipstick on a pig... (yes I know that there are a few small companies
that are outliers, making a good product. But the big names....NO!)
@@Bretreagenisaqueer Thor largest RV manufacture in U.S. beware of different names of RV's out there most of them are Thor owned.
They are all shit. I just got back from an RV show, and I couldn't believe how crappy these things are thown together. Then you look at the price and go well, that seems like a lot of trailer for the money. But that's the catch. They have to make them cheap to reach a price point that people are willing to spend. If you want quality take a look at Airstream and compare prices. Yup, that is what quality costs.
These things were built to be towed to your vacation spot and left there, They aren't made for travelling tens of thousands of miles across country. Even on good roads. Keep that in mind when deciding what you are going to use it for. This guy should have known that trailer wasn't going to last 5 mins, getting towed around Alaska. Wait until the interior starts falling apart next. That won't be long, either, but generally easier to fix. And forget dealer service. Better to just do it yourself than waste time waiting for them to do an unsatisfactory repair.
Thank goodness for the internet and social media. Back in the 'old days you had to rely on word of mouth for consumer protection. Thank you for taking the time to do this video!
As a service writer in a dealership I will never purchase an extended warranty. I’ve spent more hours on the phone fighting on the customers behalf than I’ve ever seen them pay out.
Know the feel. I take my trailer in for a couple of issues and nothing was covered under the extended warranty.
All extended warranties suck auto camper etc
@@ramdominguez1791 man that sucks, sorry to hear about that
@@user-mo5gg9eh7h very true 😆
All you have to do is sue them for your repairs and they will pay. They know if they go to court they will lose. The Court don’t like the extwarrenty companies. I used to work at a couple different places and they will pay for the repairs if they think there’s any chance you could sue them for it. They lose more money every time they go to court for this. They know they will lose if you take them to court and you have done all your maintenance on your vehicle. It doesn’t matter who does it as long as you have records for the repairs and maintenance that is required by your manufacturer. Jmo
Keystone made a huge mistake trying to runaway from fixing this huge mfg error, i'm in the market looking for a new RV and keystone definitely isn't gonna be one, glad this video showed up on my feed, thank you for your time sharing this with the RVing community
Congrats to you for taking the time and energy to do the research and find the culprits responsible. Also, not just stopping there. But Taki the time and resources to make this video to call them out and educate all of us. Phenomenal... and thanks for doing your part.
Thank you Gregory, for the feedback and taking the time to leave a comment
Dustin, You did a great job following up with this, and I'm glad to have the same insurance company.
Next will be to beef up our frame when I install the generator stand as u described from e-trailer and 30lb tanks on our 20' trailer.
@@frankbodenschatz173 thanks Frank, after doing some calculations we have already gotten to the point that we need new suspension and axles. Trailer is said to be able to have a max weight of 9,900 lbs. the trailer currently has Dexter 4000 lb axles that means they want you to have a max tongue weight of 1900 lbs 😆 so with the new thicker steel we’re already way exceeding the weight that they can handle. We will be making a few more videos moving all of this coming up. Thanks for taking the time to comment. We really appreciate it
You need to be careful beefing up one part of a frame like that. This often just moves the failure point to a new location. You really need to beef up not only the tongue, but the parts of the frame where the tongue is welded or you may well crack or bend that part of the frame.
Yeah I was wondering if that would be the case. I just watched a guy that had to reinforce his entire frame of a really expensive fifth wheel so the problem didn’t get transferred to a new spot!
I learned from my dad how to build trailers when i was a kid. He always intergrated the tong into the frame. he never did this underslung tong. they look like an after thought, and i think they are week. As a welder and mechanic i'm building my own trailer. much thicker and stronger than these cheezie frames on new trailers
@@markseehawer3762 An under slung tongue can be equally strong if designed and built correctly, but they are still ugly and reduce ground clearance.
@@LTVoyager yes they can be strong but that takes crossbracing. When i see trailers like that they look to me like they got the frame built and than went oh dam we forgot to put on a tong. My dad built a High boy flat deck for hualing fire wood his tong was still intergrated just came down to ball height on a compound angle It look good and could carry 4 cords of wood out of the bush in one load. he even hauled a Vintage John Deere crawler around that he used for logging. These under slungs are done that way because its fast an cheep to build. just like everything is done these days
That was my first thought when it was shown😂 that’s just a bandaid
Thank you for posting this. My wife & I have started looking at a new camper's and now armed with the info of your misfortune I will be paying a lot more attention to the frames on RV's. It's really sad the way they just blew you off and took no responsibility for this. They knew dang well they built it as cheap as possible to maximize profit's and obviously dont give a crap about the end user. IMO this is just another example of corporate greed. I am sure there motto is its warrantied till you drive it off the lot. If the new owner has a problem who gives a crap. Frankly I am so sick of this type of BS it's unreal. Made in USA use to mean something. It use to mean it was quality. Unfortunately not any more. I am glad you got it fixed and can now tow it with out problems.
My brother bought a brand new 26ft winter rated travel trailer. They took it out on the weekends three times in two months. He started noticing a smell after the second trip. He always drained the grey water and sewage every trip. Forth time they tried to go out the smell was so bad he needed a respirator to even go inside the trailer. He hired a licensed plumber. Toilet floor flange was broken during install and they never installed a toilet gasket. Floor and insulation was soaked in sewage. Manufacturer denied everything but offered to cut out and replace the bathroom floor. Between insurance company fighting with manufacturer and a expensive lawyer he received another Brand New unit.
That’s just awful. I couldn’t imagine smelling sewage the whole time. I’m glad to hear he got a new unit
It’s not perfectly clear who got the new unit,the customer or the lawyer.
@@user-rj5mx5no8e Shut up Troll
@@user-rj5mx5no8eit is perfectly clear that his brother received the new camper and the attorney more than likely received enough compensation to pay for the brand new Porsche he had ordered but what isn’t clear is what color the Porsche is, automatic or manual, and is it twin turbo or standard engine, lol 😂
@@user-rj5mx5no8e maybe if you can't read above a 1st grade level...
Well this totally made up my mind about Keystone. I'm in the market for RV and they just lost a sale because of the experience you just shared. It doesn't restore you, but THAT is at least some justice served. THAT is how we all teach them lessons and force them to do the right business - stop buying from them. It takes solidarity though. I'm doing my part - not buying a Keystone.
Thanks for your support. You’re right, that’s the only way that they will learn
I don't believe any mass produced rv manufacturer will own these claims as it will open up thousands in liability. Whether it is keystone or WB, they all will refuse a claim like this for the same reasons OP explained in the video.
Happy with my Jayco 31 RLDS, 10K # Centerline equalizing anti-sway hitch. Over25K miles on all types of roads. No problems. On my third set of tires. If I buy a new one I'm definitely going to be looking at Jaco again. I'm not sure if they are built as well since Thor industries bought them.
@@haroldfisher2581 thanks for sharing Harold. We will spend some time looking into jayco. We appreciate the recommendation
Doesn't matter who you go with, all RVs are junk these days. All of them
I had the jack rub the gate on our 2500 so I put on a slightly longer shank on the tow veh side. It worked magically. Glad nobody was hurt!
I almost forgot - make sure to bring your breakaway brake cable closer to the tow vehicle or sharp turns with lock the wheels. Ask how I know...
I'd hook that trailer up and park it right in front of the dealership and let folks know what a POS it is. Shameful the dealership treated you like dirt.
I’ve had very good success with family owned dealers. The big box companies don’t care if you come back.
Y
It isn't the dealers fault... they didn't build the trailer. 80 percent of trailers are on a lipert frame these days. Lipert has bought out all the competitors.
@@fritty9927 unfortunately this was a small company
@@Mikey-zs4kr very true the only issue I had with the dealer is that they avoided my calls for about a week. I called, text and emailed them because I was unsure which route to take. If they would have answered the phone and said so sorry to hear that. It’s best to go through your insurance then I would have been happy with them
@@Mikey-zs4kr Dealers are dealers because the represent the product....they either take care of customers or go out of business.
Excellent video exposing all the BS that can be encountered in the RV industry. Great job Dustin.
That's horrible. Truly several industry failings. People get killed with that level if negligence. Suprised they don't already have a class action against them. Great vid!
Thanks for the support mark. We appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment
Yes, the narration was spot on: professional, informative, and to the point. Well done. It could be referenced in court when that class action lawsuit you noted gets to court.
Thank you for taking the time and making this video. I've been in the insurance claims business for over 30 years and have seen just about everything when it comes to issues with warranties. The public needs to be aware of those manufacturers and warranty companies that don't honor their obligations when a valid claim is filed.
Thanks for watching and taking the time to share your experience. We appreciate it.
you cracked son? that thing's been beat to living hell, guaranteed overloaded
Shame on keystone and your dealer. Glad your insurance covered it, the upgrade was great. Just move the tanks back that could be easy. Thanks so much for telling the story
Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. We’re going to move the batteries and tank back in the spring.
It isn't keystone its crapstone !!!!!!
@@DustinFaddis if i.lived around you id offer my welding and help for free as i like helping fellow citizens all my neighbors love johnnie !!!!! God bless ☝️👍
@@johnalarcon5006 haha 😆
@@johnalarcon5006 you’re a good man John. Thanks for the thought
As a welder and fabricator I have seen a lot of this over the years. Camper companies are out to make a buck. You did the right thing by using the heavier tube steel. Sorry about the mis- communication with the welder.
Thanks Mike, the welder did a great job. I hope it didn’t sound like I was bashing him. He was very nice and helpful. It was a simple miscommunication. I was just kind of shaking my head laughing because it was just one more thing to add to the situation
As a former parts person, I have seen so many models, whether alledged top dollar brand to the Yugo low dollar brand, ALL RV'S are made very poorly! Everything inside & out. Customers suing my old rv dealership for poor product sales, poor parts service & mechanics who can't fix the customer units correctly, and suing manufacturers for NOT honoring warranties & etc...
This made me so sick, that I did not want to go to work. My employer forcing me to LIE to the customers about parts for their units & seeing all the poor workmanship. I left the company. Will never go back.
That metal is scary thin. I remember putting on some wiring clamps that the factory missed on the frame (surprise) and used some sheet metal screws and my half drained dewalt cordless went through it like it was butter. Thank you for calling this stuff out.
You’re welcome, I appreciate the feedback. I did the exact same thing with sheet metal screws
Excellent , insightful and informative video.
Metallurgy, Engineering, welding and coating processes for manufacturing (mostly offshore and land oilfield) is my professional background, and I was actually looking at new trailers yesterday. and bought small one i can rebuild instead (good frame - crappy condition trailer I can customize and rebuild with quality materials).
I was shocked at the thin materials that are being used, the sub par welding (uncut, pinholes, cold laps - to name a few) as well as the the minimal structural cross braces , if any for lateral and torsional stress.
One key point you may not have known from a manufacturer standpoint.
There has to be a PE (State Certified Professional Engineer - not the same as a regular engineer with a bachelors degree) who signs off and stamps on the structural design for a trailer frame. To "not know what the use or intended weight for design" is a complete lie.
There are calculations for weight distributions , torsional (twisting stress), lateral stress (side bend - like when you back into a curb perpendicular) as well as flex (up and down stress) - like a change in the pavement.
The material used is usually mild steel like a36 or equivalent with tracking and traceability with registered MTRS (Material test reported from the mill) with a matching strength weld filler material. These processes have to be certified by a lab , and all welders have to be certified to the process and all completed weldments by a certified welding inspector, or a designee under D1.1, or ASME - which also makes them liable in court for damages. So basically, if you know what is entailed with the process, you know how to get the answers you expect, and make them replace their junk product. There is a huge paper trail they are required by law to maintain.
If you go on the DOT website, you can find out how intense the criterion is for manufacturing vehicles. This, with making the company provide all the documentation for audit, and the physical evidence of the poor workmanship, would guarantee a win and damages awarded to you, not only for inconvenience but threatening the welfare of you and your family.
I would still pursue this legally , both to the manufacturer and the dealer.
Man this makes me nervous. We are purchasing a 33.5 ft trailer and none of this ever came to thought until now. Definitely checking everything before I sign the line. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this video.
More than anything you have helped multiple people be aware of potential issues, especially with using a WDH.
Glad to help my friend. That’s why we made the video so that people are aware. Also, as a community I feel we need to keep each other informed of issues because the dealers and manufactures sure won’t.
buy fleetwood
When I was thinking about purchasing for a new alternative lifestyle I found out from several people have the dealer operate everything, water, electrical, sewer, the whole nine yards while it is there. They leave the factory with the intention that you and the dealer will work out the defects, if you do it right there it is better than having to fix it on the road.
Mobile welder here, nj though.
Don't get one
As I get close to retiring, I’ve considered purchasing a Class B RV van. With all of the videos that I’ve seen considering very poor build quality in the RV industry, I’m seriously having second thoughts about a purchase. Maybe I’ll just put a cap on the back of my pickup and camp old school. Thanks for your informative video sir !
Save some money AND get a better RV by buying one made in 2019 or earlier
We had a travel trailer that was built in Indiana for about 2 years. It had some quality issues and it falling apart always was a concern even though it never did.
We sold that and bought an empty cargo van..... Ram Promaster. And we did a conversion ourselves. Totally worth it and we got exactly what we wanted.
It's not perfect but knowing that we personally built it - is awesome.
Another comment - these are price point RVs. In reality they shouldn't exist at the price they do for what they have for features but they do. It's not natural and they shouldn't exist. But there is a market for them and profit to be made.
Compare a single axle 21 foot Jayco to a similar sized Oliver trailer. They Oliver costs 40k more - it's what a high quality trailer should cost. You're already asking the right questions....the pricing is too good to be true on these Indiana built RVs.
could do the Van life thing.
Really big deal for Geico. That was a glowing review for their integrity and reliability.
We’re very happy with them
They must have changed. I had a horror story with them and will never have them again.
@@lifesucks247 I'm sure just like everything, "results may vary".
I had a Sheriff's personal truck roll back into my car one night. She had not put the truck fully in park before getting out of the truck. It bent the hood of my Camry and dented the whole front end. She lied about having insurance that night, and tried to say the accident was my fault, the next day.
She did not have insurance but Geico paid for all of our repairs without hesitation under our policy, and waived the deductible.
Her commander called me a couple days after the accident and asked for my story. He said she should pay for the repairs, and if I had any problems to let him know. In the end, she ended up losing her job.
Thank you for sharing! Now I know that if I ever use a weight distributing hitch I will need to ensure the frame is reinforced at stress points.
This is also a good reminder that a pragmatic person should except that when they purchase an RV or trailer they are functionally buying it as is. Warranties are verging on useless, especially extended warranties!
You’re right Edward. Warranties these days are just to make you feel good
Great video and thank you for your honesty and courage for "calling a cat... a cat"! As an engineer (US Navy/Marine Corps), I can see where this "rig" is going to fail and it saddens me that multiple companies are no longer building RV/travel-trailers with quality and "Made in America" pride but more like "cheap" - they would have them outsourced to China if they could. Thank you for your courage of posting your experience - potential customers need to know about Keystone RVs and Lippert's Manufacturing - there is no excuse for such cheaply-made products, we are not some third world country. May God bless you and as you did, let us stand up for our country! Ciao, L (Veteran)
This really opened my eyes to potential problems. Thanks for taking the time to show and explain all this to us. Sorry you had to go through this aggravating problem.
Glad to help and thanks for the support Charlie. We appreciate it
I figured I could trust companies to build things well
I recently started working at a RV service center. Each Tech said when I asked, "Who makes the best RV?" each said.... "They are all crap, but you get to decide how money you want to spend on your pile of crap!!!"
After being there a few months I sat down and figured out what the weight difference would be Ion a 30 ft. trailer IF they used 1/4 luan plywood instead of 1/8.... the weight difference worked out to be about 150 lbs. with LESS for window/door/compartment cutouts. So 150 lbs. would probably 120 lbs. +/-. If you did that with many of the CHEAP CRAP they put into the units you can see it just doesn't add up for many of us to buy crap made products if we had an option.
I know, I know they are trying to get the weights down so it can be towed by smaller rigs, but "Light weight" really means JUNK weight. Making your tongue out of 1/4" steel would add a little more weight to your rig, BUT the difference is worth it.
So.... here's my point(s) most of us (at least us who use our brains) would be more than happy to get a little LESS trailer if we got a BETTER trailer. I'd buy a 26' instead of a 28' if the weigh difference went back into a quality trailer...
I prototyped a few different trailers back about 7-8 years ago for someone who was thinking about building small WELL BUILT gear haulers to go behind Jeeps/4X4's. After it was all done they were wonderfully shocked and surprised at what we could build within the budget they allowed. And this is considering we were a very small production shop that CARED about things.
Unfortunately, they did not go on with their idea to get into the RV marketplace and the few times I bumped into them all they say is, "We certainly missed catching that money making wave." I believe it's still possible IF you approach things wisely!!!
Sadly, my partner in biz passed away this year a few months after we decided to close the shop due to his health... I sure wish I could find someone with brains, balls and money to invest as I STILL love the prototypes we did, the employees we had, and the fun doing things all of us loved doing and that was, PLAYING OUTDOORS!!!
Also, one of our designs that caught everyone's attention while out testing it I STILL haven't seen done yet. They absolutely loved the simple design/idea(s) we put into it... bullet-proof (not meant literally), catchy looks, small (so it could be "lighter-weight") AND (here's another important point) AFFORDABLE for many people.
Still pipe dreaming and always will...
Hersh
Should anyone have an interest in entertaining production for profits contact me and it the subject bar write "Production."...... e-mail coramdeoiii@hotmail.com
Great video, you've really raised awareness about some of these half-assed companies, and their horrible customer service.❤
It seems to me that the FRAME should be able to hold at least twice the rated load on the roughest road. I can see axles and springs failing first, but the frame should never fail.
I am a retired welder of over 30 years. I bought a new Forest River pull behind in 2019 and noticed that weak point at the tongue you pointed out and reinforced that area and also reinforced around the spring mounts of the axles. I agree, the frames of RV's are very weak even though they are made of "i" beams. Since now I have my RV paid off, I will be doing a rebuild on a new heavier tongue and beefing up the forward frame from the tongue to just past the axles. I noticed a slight twisting when traveling over uneven ground between the tongue and axles.
Our upgrades are definitely going to continue. We keep finding weak points
its not even real "i"beam , it is made out of that 1/8" steel .
Fixed a few different trailers
You weren't supposed to use the trailer or it voids your warranty.
Glad you made this video. Not buying their trailers.
You can use it you just can’t open it or pull it. They’re made to collect snow like mine is now haha
WOW, I can't even start to say what a horrible situation and mess!! We all just need to share the heck out of this! I would be suing that company! I can't believe how cheap and horrible Keystone is! I'm so grateful for you sharing this! I will never buy anything from Keystone, or any sister company! With all the emails and like situations you must all get together and sue them! Put them out of business! Such liars and bad business
It was a very horrible situation. Thanks for the support and help by sharing this. I feel off this is shared and talked about enough it will hurt them worse than actually having to fix my issue. Thanks again… we appreciate it
They will just go bankrupt, re-brand themselves and carry on business as usual.
@@dm7097 very true. I could see that happening
Sound like Thor industries needs to beef up the specs on frames. Thor owns all the tt/rv companies.
Thanks for the info. Gotta go an check my frame for my highland ridge now. That brand is under the Thor umbrella. And maybe change the angle on my WDH. Safe travels!
@@maccusswell I’m really hoping that my trailer was just built with some steel that has an issue with it. I’d be really disappointed if this was a really wide spread issue
I’m sorry that this happened to your family. I am a fabricator and have been in the excavation /Road building for many years. Yes the trailer frames are crap. But the contractor has to keep a safe and passible route through there construction zone at all time. It’s great that Geyco stepped up but this could have been resolved through the contractors insurance company also.
Thanks for sharing your terrible story in such a straight up, concise manner. Very sorry the whole thing happened. Good luck and safe travels.
Thanks for the support Joe. We appreciate you taking the time to comment.
It's amazing everybody wants to sell you a warranty but most of them when it comes time to honor that warranty they don't do it. I've just about quit getting extra warranties.
Better to save the money and just take care of it yourself because the frustration is beyond doable. Glad that you're in better shape now getting the welding done. Thank you for the video I'm a new subscriber.
Thanks for the support my friend. You’re right about the warranties. We should have saved the money to put down on this repair. 😆
yeah I've stopped extra warranties a long time ago. I also don't give a crap about how long standard warranties are because 10 vs 20 year is just 10 more years a company is willing to dodge your calls and lie. It's not 10 years more of coverage that represents their faith in build quality.
I literally just ran out with a set of calipers and checked my frame after watching this . My lippert made frame measured .20" and I'm still freaked out! Great video, thanks!
Glad to help. Hopefully you have a few new places to inspect before during and after trips. I know we do after this happened haha
Get it reinforced by a welder - it will not cost much and save you a lot of headaches.
We had all sorts of axle problems with our Keystone Cougar. I contacted both Lippert and Keystone and got nowhere with them. We went through three sets of tires during the five years we owned the trailer. We probably put a total of about 10k miles traveling with it. On our last trip up the east coast we blew a wheel bearing and were stranded in Myrtle Beach for two weeks while the repair shop looked for a brake drum. The company that made the axles had gone out of business even before the trailer was made. We finally found a machine shop that could fix the drum so we could get home. We traded the trailer in for a Winnebago. We were very open about the problems we had with this trailer. I was very concerned that some unsuspecting person would buy this trailer and have nothing but problems with it or worse get in an accident. The dealership assured us that they would install new axles or sell it as a park model. It was purchased by a local campground that uses it as a rental unit.
Wow that’s awful. Glad you got away from that problem and into something you enjoy. Thanks for sharing
As soon as I read the first sentence, I already knew that you most likely failed to perform the required scheduled maintenance on the wheel bearings. And then you said you blew a wheel bearing. There is basically no way to just blow a wheel bearing if you actually do the maintenance. Hopefully, it was a lesson learned, and no one was hurt.
@@KungPowEnterFist you’re jumping to conclusions. We kept up with the maintenance every year. The repair shop checked all the other wheels and they looked fine.
@@KungPowEnterFist 10k miles is nothing for a set of wheel bearings and no reason to have a failure.
@@Truth_Spoken If you do not do the maintenance on the wheel bearings, then can fail after just a few thousand miles. I was not surprised to find that only a minimal amount of grease had been applied to the bearings on my Cougar when I bought it brand new. RTFM.
As much as I love to get out there, I know these things are built super cheap. Disposable is probably the best description. I baby mine in order to get hopefully 5 good years out of it, fingers crossed. A bent frame would definitely ruin my day. Glad you’re back up and running. Dealers are the worst, once you’ve bought the trailer, they’d rather never hear from you again until you’re ready for the next new trailer. Nature of the beast, unfortunately.
You’re very right about the dealer abandoning you after purchase. They avoided our phone calls during this whole issue. That’s a good way to look at these things. Disposable is a great word.
It seems like too many companies want to save a buck on the way they manufacture or have parts manufactured. Just imagine if Ford or GM can save just a nickel on a bolt in the rear-end of a car and truck. You're talking millions.
@@larrywilson1783 wow you’re right
This video did give me pause for some inspection of my trailer. The rectangular steel is a bit thin for my taste. However by my eye/crommiter appears to be a 6×2. As you mentioned in another comment taller steel would be stronger. What concerns me is when the load leveling equipment was installed it appears that it was over tightened. I have certainly been over some rough rocky mountain roads and pulled through some camping sites that weren't designed with a 35 ft trailer in mind. With all of that in mind it has served me well through three years now. I had a larger battery tray made to accommodate three large batteries on the tongue. At the back of the trailer the bumper was raised and extended for a generator. Larger wheels with taller tires were added for clearance and concerns over weight capacity . This helped with leveling the trailer as well . The truck that I had when I bought the trailer was rated to pull it but was indeed inadequate. The 3/4 ton 4x4 that I pull it with now is much higher. Even after flipping and adjusting the hitch the trailer went from riding a little high on the rear and low on the front to vice-versa. Another reason for the larger wheel and tire. There's certainly a lot to consider when moving a large vehicle . Something that I have a lot of experience with as a professional commercial driver. This being said it's important to pay attention to details and never stop learning. Enjoyed the video and thank you for the food for thought.
Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment Eric. I appreciate it. You have a lot of good information.
I feel your pain buddy. You are not alone. I bought a new 2022 Passport from Keystone. Number of issues within the first few months of owning. I tell you, what a nightmare dealing with the dealer and or Keystone. Just like your experience...they tried blaming it on me...and the warranty was worthless. It took WAY too much time and energy to get any help at all. Keystone didn't even respond ... they are a horrible company and people need to know. We need to stop buying CRAP so they go under. I will check my frame and see if it is made from Lippert and the thickness of the steel. THANK you for sharing!!!
Thanks for this video. My son owns a Keystone and travels with his two young sons. That is not an acceptable failure and the frame company must not have any engineers working for them. It doesn't take a genius to know 1/8 steel is not strong enough for that size trailer.
Bro you have sure enough enlightened me!!!!! I was seriously considering buying a 36' Keystone, but not now and probably never. I checked my frame on my old '98 and I think I'll hold on to it for a while. I'd rather invest in renovations and travel in safety rather than subject myself to what you guys did. Thanks for your time and effort and safe travels.
I think renovations might be the smarter route Don. Even if you choose to buy new… now you have a few things to look at. Learn from our mistakes and check the frame and suspension components before falling in love with the floor plan
I bought my first RV after over 40 years last May. Prior to closing the deal, the personnel at the dealership were like ants on a cube of sugar with my wife and I. We had one minor issue they had promised to deal with afterward. It was like the dealership turned into a ghost town... no answered phone calls, no returned emails, even texts to the salesman's cell phone bounced back as "not a valid #. We called him from a new number, and he answered, so he had blocked us is what we figured. Service in the U.S., it's becoming a sad state of affairs. Absolutely unbelievable how thin of tubing wall they used on your rig.
I think the dealership is the worst part about the situation. Feeling abandoned and left out to dry as they avoided calls really shocked us. They seemed great and way nicer than other places we went
Same here. Guess WHAT...NOW THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS.
That happened to us too, zero after sale service
It's always good to hear you got it fixed, if you still own it I bet by now you moved the tanks back on some checker plate.
We had a 36’ Montana. The frame went out!!! We took Keystone and our dealer to court. It took 2 years. But we won. The judge refused to give them the trailer back. They said they would resell it. So it is a matter of public record in the Indiana county of Pulaski.
So they lied to you about never having frame problems!
Thanks for sharing Cheryl. We really appreciate the information. Glad to hear someone Is winning
Indiana is probably one of the largest rv manufacturing states and they have very tough lemon laws here. There is an rv lemon law attorney that won a huge lawsuit for a retired couple that had purchased a super “C” class rv. There is a video here on YT, sorry, can’t think of his name, but he is good, real good!!!!! BTW, the rv was built in Indiana, it maybe called “Nexxus” or “Nessix”. The two companies mentioned, one is very good, the other is crap. Please look it up and share
@@punisherusmc thanks for the info. I’ll have to check it out. Its always good to identify good companies
Yowza; what a nightmare ! I'm sad to say I own a Keystone, and rarely tow it so I've had no problems yet. I think I'll do a little preemptive work on the frame though; just to avoid this scenario. This video was very well done. Thanks for sharing.
I used to work for Lippert as a Maintenance Fabricator I personally have seen the welding issues on their frames. From undercut welds to holes blown through the frame, improper weld with minimal penetration. It all gets covered up with powder coat so it makes it hard to see. Good luck to everybody with frame issues.
BRANDON, would you testify to this in court?
@@austinpowers1999 if needed to I suppose I could
Hello;
Thanks for your excellent video and for sharing all your issue with us! Very well done.
I would like to share our story with the 2014 Keystone Springdale that we own. We live in northern Idaho where even the freeways have very bad frost heaves. 3 years ago we made a trip on I 90 to Missoula Mt. and when we returned I noticed that the tires on both axles were wearing and were tipped in on top so the tires were wearing the inside of the tire but the rear axle was the worst. I called a trailer frame shop in Spokane Wa. (2hrs away) about the issue and he said he repairs several of these each year. He had me use a level to measure how much the wheels were tipped in, top to bottom and I found that they were all a little different but they all were between 1/4" and 3/4" in on top, which proved that both axles were bent.
I am going to save a lot of time here and just say that my awesome insurance company State Farm payed the full $5000.00 dollar bill less our deductible. The owner of the shop said that it is from the horrible roads that we have here in Northern Idaho. But I see hundreds of trailers going up and down the road in our area and I always wonder if anyone else has ever had this issue?
Anyway about a year later I found that the tires on the rear axle were wearing on the inside again and I found that just the rear axle was bent. Once again my insurance (State Farm) agreed to pay for it but they wanted something down to prevent this from continuing to happen and so did I! They were beginning to blame the trailer manufacturer as was I. This time the frame shop said that he had in the past welded steel from one side of the frame across to the other in front of the front axle and behind the rear axle to take the twist out of the frame and that has helped to stop that from bending the axles. I ask him if he thought that I should up size the axles since I think they only use the minimum weight classification axles due to cost and he said he didn't think we needed to do that yet. I have a friend with a different brand of trailer that had issues with his axles and he up sized his to take care of the problem. So anyway so far the added structural reinforcement of the frame in the area of the axles has prevented any further bent axles, but to say the least I have become paranoid of our bad roads, too much speed and the bouncing of the trailer causing another bent axle. We like our trailer and I guess I will up size the axles if it happens again. I just wish that they would build them strong enough to use as "travel trailer". And yes all of this happened with both gray tanks empty and the black tank empty and just cloths and some food in the trailer. NOT OVER WEIGHT! I am now going to look at the tongue and will probably box it in.
I would like to hear if anyone else has had or heard of this problem?
Idaho traveler
Thanks for the detailed story. I’d never considered the stress that weight distribution hitches put on the trailer frame, but it makes perfect sense. I’ll be much more careful with that in the future, when I go “off road”.
Good idea, glad you got something out of it Casey
@@DustinFaddis My dad bent his as well, without the weight distribution hitch. and he has one of the shorter single axel trailers.
@@C0braChicken2 wow, sorry to hear that. A lot of people claim it’s the weight distribution hitch. Since posting this video I’ve heard about half of the people that have this same issue have no weight distribution hitch
3mm Steel is for fence posts not to carry this load. The distribution hitch has nothing to do with poor work in engineering. This cost cutting could have cost lives.
@@DustinFaddis yeah, even the picture you showed of the other trailer in the tow yard didn't appear to have a WD hitch... So it's not simply the hitch.
Man, I feel for you and your family and what you went through. You've got better self control than what I would have had.
Thanks for the support. We were pretty upset with the situation and especially with how we were treated
I learned through years of experience it does not pay to lose your patience in this situation as the innocent man ends up being prosecuted never again I follow the law even if I don't agree with it
Easier said than done in some cases, @@Mr.Robert1
Oooh thank you for this video. I’ve been researching campers for a future purchase and had not even thought of the frame construction and what size steel is used. Now when we actually go shopping I will duck under and check. Keystone is crossed off my list as a manufacturer (it WAS a brand I had in my list for the amenities). A more comprehensive list is now in order.
That isn’t something we were concerned about either sue. My recommendation moving forward is inspect the frame and suspension first before falling in love with the floor plan
Thank you for this, this is my first camper, I was homeless and this was a fixer upper, so I've bought it and place it in RV park, now I am thinking of moving to another park, looking at what you have went through my camper might not be able to be moved, Man thank you I have to think of another way, love your sharing 🎉❤
Thanks for sharing your story. Opened my eyes even more. Some of those companies are garbage. After seeing the way they treated you, they won’t be getting my business!
Thanks for the support Bob
Thank you for the posting. We had our NEW trailer serious bent frame damage - Trailmanor 2027 - when traveling to Baja Mexico. We were on MX 1 about 12 miles north of a small pueblo. I had to leave the trailer along side of the road and traveled with my truck to town. I found a Mexican man in his 30s. I showed him a photo of the damage. He grabbed a bucked, a chains, some steel latches and asked me to take him to our trailer. Before long he had the chain around the trailer hitch and frame in such a way we could go ultra slow to town. There he got out his welding equipment. Jacked of the trailer and began welding the frame together. After about 40 minutes he was done! Looked Okay - but we had another 600 miles to travel. We did by faith and arrived two days later on the East Cape. Seemed everything held up fine.
I contacted Trailmanor. Send them photos. They said the was a new issue for them because I wondered if they should recall trailers. My family could have been seriously injured in an accident or worse. Trailmanor didn’t deny anything. They said their nearest dealer was up toward Los Angeles and gave me the information. About a month later we were back to San Diego and then scheduled a trip to their dealership to look things over. All that time and travel back that Mexcian’s welding work - which cost me about $30 USD (although I gave him $50) seemed to hold up fine. The Dealership looked it over. Had a certified welder come to inspect it. He told me he had never seen any better welding work repair and everything was fine. He then said that he did equivalent to reinforcement welding on the other side of the frame in case that was weak too.
Funny you mentioned about the trailer being over weight. LOL. My dealer said our trailer must have been overweight, which is a laugh with some basic luggage, cooler, etc. - nothing out of the ordinary weight. NOW? After you posted this I wonder who makes the frames for Trailmanor? We really liked our Trailmanor. Great service. However, that bent frame hitting the pavement at 50 MPH is a scary sound when you are in the middle of nowhere. Honestly, God showed up and got us out of that mess.
I am in the market for an RV and this is the stuff of nightmares for me. Thanks for taking the time to make this video!
Glad you got sintering out of it Marty. Good luck with your search and safe travels
Save your money and buy an Airstream.
After watching the video its very clear what happened. You stated y'all went down a dip that coupled with the weight distribution transfer was an accident waiting to happen. Also what were the distribution bars rated for? Were they over for safety? That additional force of the dip on the bars trying to transfer weight to the front bent your frame. Always use bigger hitch than needed but smaller bars than needed!
Time for another update!
Something I hadn't mentioned before, as I was trying to stay on-topic with the video, is that we've also had consistent trouble with the aluminum siding on our trailer. The day I picked it up I got about 3 miles down the road before I saw it bubbling out, and turned around to go back to the dealer. They actually did do a great, fast job securing THAT particular portion of siding. Needless to say, it's happening in other places now. I've tried since the beginning of January to get ahold of our service advisor, even copying the service manager on a couple of emails. No reply
The last time we had the trailer on the road, my wife finally had enough and said "that's it! Whatever you have to do, GET RID OF THIS TRAILER!" She continued by saying how she can't stand to see how much it stresses me out to tow it, and then add in all the problems and lack of communication from the dealer. I'm VERY pleased to say we'll be picking up our new travel trailer in 4 days!
We got VERY lucky in that, just as the cost of new units has gone up outrageously in the past year, so has trade-in value. The dealer we're getting the new unit from is fully aware of all the problems and concerns I have and they have been excellent to deal with. And no, it's absolutely NOT a keystone product.
I look forward to a (hopefully) positive review of the new trailer in the coming months!
Thanks for all the great information. We will definitely be looking forward to your review of your new trailer.
Hi I’m Mike I’m sorry about your trailer issues. May I ask what brand you got? I know jayco has a decent 2+3 year warranty and all or most of the videos I seen grand design has been good on customer service. I have a 2018 rockwood roo 23IKSS really no issue as of today. I have seen a lot of lippert frames go bad on videos. Well enjoy your new trailer.
@@mikeritchie2189 we got a Palamino Puma (by Forrest River). Very happy with this one!
@@mikeritchie2189 my trailer is a 2021 keystone Springdale. It comes with a 5 year warranty but they said because it happened while towing that it was considered an accident and not any fault of the manufactures of the rv or frame. It was unbelievable. I couldn’t imagine a trailer that could not handle a well graded dirt road on a major highway. So, basically the warranty meant absolutely nothing.
Just a heads up Forrest River is not a lot better on build quality. I went from keystone hideout to apex by coachman an FR company to wildcat fifthwheel also a FR company. These things are crap build quality. Baby them and get every tiny thing you find wrong fixed under warranty at the start. Watched a video on here from dealer selling grand design products before they got bought out and they said straight up their other lines come in messed up from the manufacturer and their service department ends up being the step of the assembly line.
New travel trailers are made super cheap nowadays.They are junk! I've had two so far and workmanship is terrible! Thank goodness I kept my old 1981 Prowler and my 2008 Gulfstream Kingsport. No issues with either one. Don't have the newer ones anymore.
When I used to make trailers I would reinforce the draw bars with 14mm rod and use 75x100x5mm flat bar and make a coat hanger underneath the draw bar.
Depending on the trailer and having asked how much they really intend to load on the trailer I would also do this on the crossbars supporting the floor if needed.
Sounds like you put some thought and time into it. You actually cared about the product that you were putting out. Thanks for sharing
Man this could be a way bigger problem for Keystone and other manufacturers if they don't publicly address it. All it takes is one family to die in a wreck because they lost control of their trailer when the frame bent. But I suppose it's a calculated risk they are willing to take. Scary stuff either way.
They reached out saying they want to make it right and hand it inspected so I’ll make a follow up video explaining how and if they helped
I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember the 1970 Ford Pinto that would go up like a roman candle with the slightest rear end collision because the gas tank was unprotected & right behind the rear bumper. Literally hundreds of cars burned with numerous people being burned to death or severely injured. Ford developed a cost-benefit analysis entitled Fatalities Associated with Crash Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires. Seems it was cheaper to litigate the accidents & death's than retrofit all those Pinto's.
@@n.e.c.6389 WRONG ! Nut Case Nader " made his millions fraudulently suing and won that way FACTS : A man and his family stopped off a highway and filled his Pinto wagon gas tank with gas , LEFT HIS GAS CAP ON THE PUMP , pulled out on the highway at a red light , the light turned green and a CAR REAR - ENDED THE PINTO GOING 60 M.P.H. ! ( Where does the gas go WITHOUT A GAS CAP ? )
@@n.e.c.6389 The government needs to stop throwing their hands up, and arrest whoever makes the decision. If the corporation plays dumb and destroys evidence, it should be the CEO sitting in jail until the company can figure it out.
@@DustinFaddisWhat ended up happening with this?
I appreciate you taking the time to call out this crap construction. That is a big reason I bought a used Lance.
Made in America used to mean something. We have a Forest River Salem. Although my wife loves the floor plan, it ends there. Because we are DIY people we are in constant upgrade mode. Incredibly cheap products made even worse with shoddy workmanship. We just got our frame patch welded by the axles, as a hairline crack was found last inspection. Good on you for highlighting what everyone knows. Cheap is as cheap does! Happy trails (from here on in).
You’re right, it’s sad that made in America means nothing anymore. Soon Walmart will be made with American made garbage if it keeps going this way
I am really impressed by your calm demeanor. I'm pretty sure I'd be hopping mad about all the run around and failure to take responsibility you encountered. It is shameful that these companies can sell you an extended warranty that provides no help whatsoever.
My advice, is learn how to weld. The modifications you need to make the improvements you want are not so difficult that you couldn't do them yourself. It will save you money and provide you exactly what you want. Also future changes are easy as well.
Dustin thanks for an informative video of the current sitation with the RV industry. I'm nearing 70 yrs of age and have been exposed to the Industry fo nearly 60 of those years as my parents had TTs when I was young. I remember Dad renting a 12' Scottman and taking X country trips with many construction zones in the roadways that had frost and water errosion without frame damage and using a WD. We also had a16' Fleetwood TT in mid 60's Dad pulled on the beach with a '63 Impala that luckily had a 250hp 327 and power glide trans to get r done. Theu drug a '28 5th wheel over the US including Alaska and Canada in early 80s without frame damage. I have owned several TTs and 3 5th wheels over the last 30yrs and have witnessed the decline in the Industry to build a robust product for the consumer's use. I have taken my trialers '80s Terry '24 TT, '90 35 Alfa Toyhouse 5th wheel, '05 KZ '38' New Vision into the back country on forest roads, desert jeep roads over rocks, roots, culverts x sfreams. None of the trailers had Lippert frames and non had structural failures or deformation. My '14 40' Keystone Fuzion does have a Lippert frsme and I have observed movement in the frame over the pinbox attachment. I watch carefully when hitching and unhitching to ensure mimimum stress on this area as it is well documented on YT re Keystone/Lippert frame fsilures especially on Montana 5th wheels.. Unfortunately IMHO the Industry is profit driven and quality in design and construction of RVs to meet the Marketed usuage i.e. boon docking on primative campsites and roads is not now considered Normal Use which now encompasses paved roads and RV Parking Lots. There's only a few trailer manufacturers left building their own frames Northwoods being one of the larger of the mass produced.ones YMMV Happy Camping
Thanks for sharing Bill. They sure don’t build them like they used to. I’ll look into north wood in the future. I love to rv so I won’t change that but now at least I know what to expect and what companies to stay far away from.
Sorry you had to go through all this and thanks for sharing. This is why I never buy an extended warranty. They are basically useless and just puts more money in the pockets of the dealership. Heard way too many stories of them not covering what needs covered for some silly reasons.
Thanks Dustin! Sorry to hear about your experience! And thank you to all others that commented! With the initial CV19 lockdown, I decided to do some remodeling to my Keystone 35ft BH. Nothing but cheaply built. I wrote it off to being a weight savings thing. After seeing your vid and reading some of your viewers comments, you got me rethinking this whole RV thing and how much I'd have to put into it just for peace of mind and preventive frame issues. All the best, -Mike
Thanks for the support. It is all about weight savings which is obviously getting dangerous at this point. Hopefully this gives you some areas to look into strengthening. It does make you wonder if it’s worth dumping a large amount of money into these. The older keystones were great. We didn’t have any issues with our 2007. It would be worth doing some research on your model. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
I used to be an engineer for several different RV companies for many years. All the companies used Lippert frames. Lippert would build frames to whatever specifications we wanted but would give recommendations if they spotted weak points.
As a cautionary point, by extending the length of the tongue the hitch weight of the trailer has been increased. I would be cautious about mounting a generator to the front of the unit and increasing the tongue weight even further.
Thanks for the recommendation Mike. I agree, we won’t be adding weight up front. Maybe just a plastic box to store sewer hoses because the bumper is too small for them to fit
I think now many (not all) manufacturers are farming out their frames to companies like Lippert. I have an older Nash travel trailer built by Northwood Manufacturing and at that time they built their own frames in their own factory in Oregon. They even had a video showing their frame assembly plant, and how they are built. I will keep my old Nash until it turns to dust, because it is so reliable and well built.
If you're an engineer then I'm a rocket surgeon. Lengthening the tongue does NOT increase the pin weight. It REDUCES it.
Thought experiment for the wanna be engineers out there. 8' trailer 4' tongue pin weight 100lbs. 8' trailer 12' tongue = pin weight 50lbs. 3x the distance to half the pin weight. If I told you to manually lift the 4' tongue or the 12' tongue which would be easier? What if I extended the tongue 20'?
This stuff should be taken seriously. Granted nobody is going to extend anything as far as my example, but what if the pin weight was already at the bare minimum? Now it's too light and that is deadly. It also gives the uneducated the impression they can carry more load until they reach the previous pin weight. Now the entire structure between the first axle and the pin is under a lot of additional stress. What I didn't her covered was water and grey tanks. If they are in front of the axle that adds a whole lot of static and dynamic stress. 8lbs per gallon rough numbers. 8.3 to be more accurate and with larger tanks as the error factor is exponential. 100 gallon tank going over a drop can exert well over 1500 lbs of force (about 2x static weight)
@@Look_What_I_Did I thought the same thing. "With a long enough lever you can move the world" old adage comes to mind. Longer tongue equals longer lever. Good post my friend.
Thanks for this fantastic video! Our family is looking into a travel trailer purchase and your video is like gold to us. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. We have scratched off 3 RV makers who use the same 1/8 inch steel and we check all of the hitch designs very closely.
Glad to help. Look at Norwood, outdoor Rv to start. They make their own frames. They do cost more though. Good luck with your search
Wow you were so calm about this I guess that's the way to handle a problem like this
Thanks for taking the time to make this video and share this issue. We bought a 2021 Gulf Stream with a Lippert frame and I was looking at the thin steel the other day while adding a larger battery tray. For piece of mind I was entertaining the idea of reinforcement on the frame since our roads up here can get pretty bad at times.
Your story confirmed my suspicions.
I would definitely reinforce. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment
For some of those that want to really beef up the frame, find a section of 'C' channel steel that will fit inside the existing channel and weld it in there. Even bolting it in, is strong if you don't have a welder or an experienced welder around.
Box section would be better.
@@allangibson2408 yes but you’d have to cut wire harness to feed through that new enclosed section and then splice back together
@@paulciley3727 The box is big enough to pull a fully terminated harness through - or if you really get stressed about it you could run it in conduit on the outside (split plastic conduit (intended for electrical emergency repairs) is available).
He's right. Heavier duty trucks (not your 3500, a CDL dump truck or tractor trailer) use this, sometimes in triple layers of C channel. Issue is long term rust in between the beams.
Actually bolts are better if you use enough of them. Train bridges are riveted not welded for, like, reasons.
That's why I spent twice the amount for a Lance than that of a comparable sized competitor. The Lance has a Norco manufactured High Strength Low Alloy frame that is bolted/riveted vs welded and Dexter torsion axles vs a sprung axle design that the less expensive manufactures use. This combination offers the trailer to absorb more suspension undulations with some frame flexing instead of cracking. Their weight savings revolve around the box being fabricated with an aluminum frame, composite Azdel wall and floor panels and imported lightweight cabinet plywood vs compromising the frame structure. As an engineer w/25 yrs as a manufacturing manager for a large multinational corporation, I was appalled at the build quality of virtually the entire RV industry. It harkens back to the US automotive industry of the 60's and 70's. Lance, AirStream and inTech were the only ones on my short list...
Thanks Pat, I was looking into lane but I unfortunately settled for what I could get up here in Alaska. There was a two year wait on other models that we wanted.
Now we know why there's a 2 yr wait on the high priced models. They can take the rugged construction roads.
@@frankbodenschatz173 you’re right about that Frank
Love my lance. No frame issues and tows ez. Only a few very small issues since ive had it that have been fixed mostly with duct tape.
@@dmac19050 glad to hear you’ve got a good one. There are plenty of good ones out there, you just have to find them. Safe travels
I always thought weight distribution hitches moved weight up toward the front axle of the tow vehicle.
Your experience is horrific! We have an Arctic Fox travel trailer which must have a thicker frame than your Keystone. On several trips from our home in Reno to Houston, we hit some HUGE potholes that scared the s*** out of us. Full water tanks, and full propane tanks. Truck bed loaded with stuff for our several-month stays in Houston. Twice I had to have a trailer axle straightened - and buy new tires that wore unevenly due to the pothole bent axles. But, the frame never bent. The trailer is 11 years old and just keeps on truckin'. Thanks for your efforts and for producing this informative video.
Thank you for such a good job documenting the situation. I was in the market for a travel trailer and went to a dealer to look at new units just to get an idea what I would like. Brand new trailers were literally falling apart in the parking lot. That’s why the wife and I decided to convert a school bus instead of going with a trailer or an RV.
Great idea, I hope you post some pictures and videos
REALLY BAD IDEA!!
Buy one that’s Already
had all the $$ & Labor
put into it!!! This is a FACT!!
You elected to use a vehicle subject to far more rigorous build standards than the RV industry is required to use. Well done.
We have that exact same trailer! I will definitely be looking into my frame and tongue setup now. The manufacturers sure don't over build anything anymore. Bare minimum seems to be the rule of the land these days. Thank you for sharing this. Now I am seriously worried.
We love the floor plan but definitely weren’t expecting this. Good luck and safe travels. I would definitely take it in and have it reinforced
I was told by an industry inside to NEVER buy anything manufactured by Keystone, Forest River, and Dutchman among other names I can’t recall. My aunt & uncle had
2 Travel trailers made by Jayco. We bought a 32 footer made by Jayco based on their experience.
We never had issues other than a leak in the door window. This was fixed promptly by our local dealer. We used it for 10 years without a problem. We only quit
camping because it became too much to handle due to health issues.
I agree that people should stay away from a handful of companies. Glad to hear you had no major issues in your travels. Sorry to hear you’ve stopped due to health issues. Thanks for taking the time to comment Brent. Take care.
Thanks for posting. I’ve been looking for trailers and have been told there’s a lot of garbage. It’s scary to see this.
Glad you’re safe.
Great video. This shows how warranties are not worth buying. I have learned warranties with house hold goods are also not worth the trouble. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment.
I learned from my father to never pay for a warranty on anything but a car or house. He taught me if your fridge breaks, it is cheaper to fix it than pay for a warranty that wont. I work as a general maintenance tech for a large corporation. I have found this applies to factory warranties on most equipment as well. Just about every time i submit something undervwarranty their techs find a way to claim whatever happened could not be covered under warranty. Then I end up paying for their techs travel charge, time and the repair. If I can fix it myself I do. It is cheaper in the long run.
Terrible lesson to learn.
Great video, it was an eye opener on the possibility of the frame bending in front. I always know that the RV industry mostly build everything to the bare bones. I have seen where the axles attach to the frame break away. It's too bad we have to reinforce everything in an RV to make it safe for us.
You’re right about that Earl. It’s horrible we have to strengthen these new trailers
My parents own a budget travel trailer from the 70s. The A frame has started to bend upwards... Not as severe as you experienced, but a few inches. It took a lot of use, and abuse (20+ hunting trips up rough roads) Even back then the design was suspectable to this failure
Wow I haven’t heard of an older trailer bending like this. I guess I could see it after years and years of use and maybe some rust over the years
Its not necessarily the design of the trailer, to many people put to much weight in there trailer, they all have a limit, then put weight distribution hitch on witch actually pushes down on the hitch, and tow it with a under sized vehicle so they have to tighten the hitch even more, then i saw a video of a couple driving down a wiinding road going through big dips draging the rear of the trailer on the ground, so they were putting the weight of the trailer on the hitch and the end of the frame, its no wonder these are bending and braking, they are made to hold 1000 lbs not 6000 lbs +++
@@kenhall7517 I agree in most cases. Our trailer claims it can hold 1800lbs of junk. We only had around 500 . I had a pop up trailer that we loaded with more than that
If it is starting to bend its structural integrity is gone
@@jonyemm we agree completely
What a nightmare! I’ve got a little 17’ Casita trailer and it’s frame used thicker steel than that! At least you made it home and you got a decent story out of it! Glad everyone was okay.
I'm a welder, when I first saw your trailer Frame I could see the trailer. Frame is to (small). Not only is it to thin, but it needs to be larger like, 2"×8"× full length and
5/16" thick. I welded on trailer frames before, your length alone is enough reason, without the weight !! Good Luck
We will be attempting to strengthen it more in the spring. Hopefully it works out. Thank you William.
I appreciate you sharing your experience with all three of the companies you were in contact with. You got screwed by Keystone and Lippert on this. Both should have stepped up and helped with this. I will stay away from Keystone for sure. I hope you have better experiences going forward.
How many other manufacturers have their frames made by Lippert. I wonder how to find that out!
From my research there are only a couple manufactures that make there own frame. Lippert makes about 80% of all RV frames.
We just want to get the word out so people know what they’re getting into when purchasing. Hopefully enough people will see this video and force a little change in these companies.
This was an issue back when we purchased our trailer in 2011. We were doing research and found a lot of complaints about the lippert frames cracking and bending so we looked for manufacturers that did not use them. We ended up buying from Outdoor RV and they build their own frames on-site. They also don’t put the a-frame below the I-beams. The A-frame is put through the front cross plate and welded top to bottom and gives you a ton extra clearance. They market their trailers for off road use in the Pacific Northwest. I have hauled our ORV Backcountry 26FS trailer with the distribution hitch installed into the backcountry on jeep trails and switch backs with no issues.
We were looking for an outdoor RV but up here in Alaska they told us we would have to wait around 2 years. We’re only in Alaska for 3 years total and just wanted it to explore Alaska. Unfortunately that’s what we get for not waiting haha
Thanks for posting this. Your video and others like it confirms I don’t want to spend my money on any form of RV. They are all prone to expensive problems.
We had a similar situation with a Lippert frame became twisted on our second trip out with a brand new Forest River Wolf Pup. Took it to the purchasing dealer and confirmed there was an issue but Lippert wanted a 12 page report filled out in order to even file the claim. Ridiculous service from them on a brand new bumper tow camper. The frame of the trailer is flimsy and thin material and the welds weren't much better. Never will I ever purchase another lippert frame camper!
Sorry to hear you had issues with yours as well Matthew. Hopefully they at least got you taken care of
Thank you for sharing this information. Would’ve never guessed that they would use such A week frame in the front. And not warning you about it with a weight distribution hitch.
I agree. We feel they don’t care about customers after you purchase
One of the things I like about Northwood Manufacturing (makes Artic fox, wolf creek and a few others) is they make their own frames. One of the only ones in the industry that does afaik. Their trailers are heavier but so much better built than most of what’s out there.
I was thinking about purchasing a new camper/ trailer next year. After watching this video, and seeing how all the companies just washed their hands of the situation. Along with the outrageous prices, I am probably just going to get out of RV'ing. Thanks for the video and information.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I will make sure i will get an offroad rated trailer for sure for my zr2. I love your channel and i am thankful you guys are safe. No one needs to go through what you did.
Thank you for the feedback. I’m glad you enjoy the channel. We’re probably going with a rooftop tent for our zr2. Do you have a camper in mind that you’re looking at?
@@DustinFaddis i am looking at a bruder exp4.
@@disabledcamperhardnocks8068 I’ve seen those in person. They look really well built. The suspension is great. I haven’t heard anything on customer service but I’d expect it’s good if they put that much care into their build quality.
@@DustinFaddis you can get a knock off from china 1/3 the price. And if i understood what you said. It always nice to help a fellow brother in arms. The r values are awesome but the exp 6 is to heavy even for my zr2 diesel to be comfortable. Thats why i am stuck with getting the 4.
@@disabledcamperhardnocks8068 we appreciate the support. I agree the exp6 would be too big for the zr2. I’ll look forward to seeing pics of your exp4 when you get it. Are you on Instagram?