Heritage vs Hybrid vs Open Pollinated
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- Опубликовано: 23 янв 2025
- I used to grow only open pollinated vegetable varieties, with a preference for heirloom or heritage varieties, but in the past few years I have been growing hybrid varieties of some types of vegetables. And I think there are definite benefits to both hybrid and open pollinated varieties, even with an uncertain future.
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I used to be much more interested in growing historic varieties too.
it's interesting to experience part of history in a way, but you realize that in most cases people have managed to improve upon those varieties by now.
Yeah, there have been a lot of improvements, and also some old varieties are fantastic!
Thank you for posting this discussion. Twenty years ago I was interested in onnly heritage crops- and those with interesting stories etc as you mentioned. However with the neighbours' trees doubled in height I've had to modify what I can grow - and have looked at F1s ...usually scared off by the price ...so am grateful you cleared that up for me . I will definitely look for them :) However I am in Canada and the F1s you mentioned (the Crown Prince I was extra interested in since I grew it years ago) are not available. I purchased seed from a local farmer (since my regular source had repeated poor germination for myself and other growers here). Although the local seeds were much more vibrant than my usual source, there were a number of for instance parsley seeds in with the carrots (and I was only interested in carrots) which I realized way to late to resow.
It is interesting how those initial beliefs can hold on for so long! Shame about the poor germination, and the undesired seed mixed in. It seems both can be issue with getting seeds from others.
I cannot wait until I am financially secure enough to have some soil of my own. Your obsession and passion with vegetable gardening is really inspiring. I have a small balcony where I grow as much as I can, but I long for my compost heaps and raised beds which I built at my parent's house as a teenager. Great video. Well researched! You experience is really impressive. Greetings from Stellenbosch, South Africa :)
Hey there in South Africa! Hope you get some land to grow in soon! Thanks for the comment!
Awesome goals! Hou Moed.
How about bokashi fermenting in the meantime while your space is limited?
Keep it up, don't give up
Great video. I have always wished I could do a side-by-side comparison of a large number of different varieties of the same plant, but I've never had the resources available to me to do so. I often think that the "perfect" variety for my context surely exists out there but I just haven't discovered it because it's a needle in a haystack of other varieties. You're very lucky to be able to conduct these kinds of experiments.
It has taken me a long time to get to this point, and is still takes up a lot of time and space, especially as I am trying to track the yields and other factors, so that means weighting everything, and paying close attention. All of which takes away from my other tasks. But hopefully it is worth it.
Maybe try looking into Landrace gardening . You develop your own strains of plants by planting multiple varieties and letting them cross pollinate, then save seeds from whichever does the best. Then in years after you start selecting for the size, color, shape, or flavor you want. You end up with plants that adapt to your specific environment and resistant to your specific pests and diseases. I am starting this year with cucumbers, since they so easily cross pollinate.
There is a side of hybrid seeds that is seldom mentioned and that is where they are produced! Bayer Monsanto and Dow licence a lot of the big brand hybrid produkts. They produce these in 3 countries where the work standards are hmm not so nice. So I have chosen not to buy hybrid seeds any more, small steps I know, but I try anyway.
That is an important side to consider.
Indeed. And the increase of hybrid seeds and their widespread availability are endangering the existence of old varieties, since people go for more hybrid, easier to get, consumable, more productive, more disease resistant, etc... And all of this ultimately reduces the diversity in our food since the Heirloom varieties become forgotten. Now you have some hybrid varieties that are open source and pledged to remain in the public domain (OSSI) and those will not be patented by the like of Monsanto.
Carol Deppe's plant breeding book has mentions to "dehybridizing hybrids". It could be a feasible project with some of the crops you rely on hybrids (I'd guess squash to be the simplest one to try...). While it is certainly a time-consuming effort, it'd be very interesting to see how it'd go through time. Plus a comparison between the selected offspring and the original hybrid could also be very interesting.
I have heard about the 'dehybridizing' possibility, but have never tried it. It sounds like a lot of effort! Perhaps at some point in the future.
Good discussion. I’ve changed a lot over the years. As a beginner gardener I really wanted only open pollinated, then I discovered that I’m my short season, some plants were much more successful if I planted hybrids. Now, I am somewhere in the middle. I grow some of each. I want to grow my own seeds so I have some seed security, so I am growing open pollinated as much I can, slowly learning how to save seeds. Some plants are really hard and maybe nearly impossible to save seed from in a short season - but I want to learn as much as I can.
I think developing soil, different natural compost teas can be more important than the heritage versus hybrid argument. Much appreciate you and your scientific mind.
Interesting point. I see it as a yes/and rather than an either/or kind of thing. For some hybrids, especially the squash and turnip, the flavour and production was significantly more than I would think possible just with soil development.
Thank you for this thoughtful and carefully considered discussion. It brought me a lot more clarity on what is most important right now and raised issues I hadn't thought about. We need to be very alert to saving seed from the new varieties that will doubtless emerge as nature responds to the rapidly changing conditions, and to trialling different techniques for these. I noticed yesterday (I am in the southern hemisphere) that several of the purple fleshed potatoes that amount to an invasive species in my subalpine environment they are so successful, are markedly more frost resistant than the others and have grown (uninvited) in very dry soils with no watering or feeding. All they seem to require is heavy ground cover, either mulch or a synthetic cover for the roots. (The plants readily creep out from under the cover if it is not too extensive.) Normally I don't even bother to sow these potatoes, they propagate themselves so readily and I am forever pulling them out of established beds I use for other plants, but this time I have sown a few of the best of the slightly more frost resistant ones with a small addition of compost and then covered the soil. It will be interesting to see how they do with a little more care. They may be a crop for the future as conditions here become ever drier. On "Irish" heritage plants, I don't think nature recognises national or even geographic boundaries. Most (all?) plants started off in one particular place, before colonising other areas via winds, birds, animals, the seas or more recently humans, and in the process adapting to very differing conditions. Anyway thanks again for a very valuable video!
As a long time market gardener I agree 100 percent with everything you said, a rare event, believe me...I grow a couple of high tunnels full of tomatoes, they're all old varieties, because I grow them for flavor. The newer varieties grow a lot more fruit, have fewer diseases, less cracking, less spoilage and so on, but they just don't taste as good. On the other hand, I only grow hybrid plants of peppers / capsicum, eggplant, carrots and several other things because the hybrids taste great and yield anywhere from twice as much to 10 times more. One issue seldom addressed is that there's no market incentive to maintain and improve open pollinated strains, most if not all of them have been allowed to deteriorate over the years by large scale growing without significant selection. What's sold as a heritage strain today may bear little resemblance to the same strain of 50 years ago. My first rule of gardening is leave your ideology at home, I meet too many gardeners who care more about ideology than results.
Wow, thank you! I am interested in trialing and switching to hybrids and for eggplant and peppers, as I have heard they can be much better. I agree with you about the lack of focus on maintaining the open pollinated varieties, and suspect that a lot of them could be much better, and I wonder how they would compare if properly maintained. This is one of the reasons that I stopped seed saving for a while, when I realised that I was probably degrading the quality of the variety, by not knowing what I was doing.
I like your first rule of gardening.
It's a cute saying, but your results come at the expense of your control over your own food supply. Kind of amazed at how high everyone seems to be on hybrids. As long as there is a market, supply and you value the dollars you make over the ability to feed yourself, sure. But it's short sighted. Monsanto have you eating out of their hands. Of course things change over generation, through adaptation to various environments, etc., I save 90% of my own seed and I get a crop the following season that's more robust for that exact reason - it's adapted. What happens when you can't get the seed you need? Do you know about the farmers in India who switched entirely to Monsanto hybrids from their native heirloom crops, then when drought hit, they sank into debt and couldn't purchase seed from their masters and had none of their own seed to sow? Many, many such farmers in India take their own lives. That's the future that awaits someone who doesn't save their own seeds. Hybrids are a very enticing scam.
@@donquixote8462 I get the impression that you didn't watch the video. I think it is only short sighted to rely on Hybrids if you expect to always be able to use them. As a transition variety it is different. I cannot fault a market grower growing hybrid peppers when they can get double the yield or more, given that the margins of growing and selling food are so thin in so many cases. Going all open pollinated could increase the risk of failure as a grower when the market is so saturated with cheap food. So growers need to survive/thrive in the real world that currently exists, and at the same time to not put all their eggs in one basket because the world may change, and the supplies of seeds may be an issue.
Smart thinking and a good discussion about important matters. Thanks so much.
Thank you. Glad you appreciated it.
I was so excited to see another video from you in my feed. Such an important topic. You're approach is wonderful, and I greatly appreciate all the work you've put into your research. Happy growing!
Thank you so much!
Another informative video and congratulations on 103k subs well deserved.
Thank you very much!
I'm so happy you upload this video, I am quite confused if I want to introduce hybrid in my garden I needed this.
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I have been keeping in touch with your channel for a couple of years now, and have grown to appreciate your perspectives on may topics. I esp like that you have been open to changing your own perspectives, and readily admit mistakes & biases, and have learned much, and enjoyed more of the content!
I personally avoid Hybrid seeds like the plague. I have many reasons for this, including reliability of growing in varying locales/situations, and the "leverage" of having to purchase actual life that has been allowed to be copyrighted, among the top ones. From my subjective view, that is about as slippery & unnatural as the slope gets.
That being said, hybrid seeds/plants are altered in a way that can produce non-repeatable, or not locally, naturally, viable lifeforms, and the entire topic just creeps me out.
Lol, ok, that also being said, I can see that using them may be of benefit for many, esp during the gaining of skills/knowledge, and transitioning to the system it does take to keep seeds.
Sorry for the "rant" but, well, you started it ;)
Great video & thanks for taking the time.
I feel blessed to live where there are seed companies and seed banks working with locally produced varieties. Seed security in a broad sense does not feel endangered. I do feel a sense of security in seed saving when I am able to save in abundance. I am much less reserved when seed starting, which increases my chances of adequate healthy plants. I also have what I want on hand for that break in the weather; no waiting for orders or trips to the store.
Lastly, I have been amazed at the number of things which can be grown from grocery store items like spices (coriander, dill, fennel, etc) and beans. Even if I only use them as a cover crop, at less than a dollar a pound its very cost effective
We are starting to get that kind of network and support around seed saving here in Ireland, but it is still small and slow.
It's neen awhile since I've watched a video from you. I heard your voice in my head when I saw the thumbnail come up, it triggered positive memories and something about your voice / the content of your words draws me in, make a me want to plop down, and listen to your musings. I find it to be very enjoyable and oddly relaxing
Ah, that is a nice thing to read. 🙂
It makes sense to use hybrids if you're going to buy anyhow, I agree. If you want to play with the middle ground between hybrid and open-pollinated, especially on easier veggies like squash, it can be fun to dehybridize a hybrid that works for you if you don't need uniformity, or select up from a grex or a lofthouse-style landrace mix. It's amazing how much productivity you can get from a diverse "hybrid swarm" or group of interbreeding types that has been selected for a couple years in your area. I'm in a very cool-summer area and I've been able to grow tomatoes outdoors around here, which is unheard of in this area.
Dehybridising would be a very interesting thing to explore! Not sure if I have the capacity for that kind of thing, yet.
@@REDGardens Since a significant part of dehybridizing is selection for your conditions, if you have an extra patch of soil you could just toss saved squash seeds over there and ignore them. Anything that survives, fruits, and makes a good-tasting fruit is worth saving seed from again; if nothing does then it's no loss (as long a you weren't doing anything with that patch anyhow). *If* you have the space it can be low- effort and not impact your current gardens.
@@dinosaurfarm It is the space that is missing for me, or at least the useable/cleared growing space that isn't already taken up with other explorations that I feel are more interesting at this time.
@@REDGardens That's fair. Space is at a premium for a lot of folks.
Very interesting. Thank you for all your hard work, and also, thank you for expressing your plans in the event of societal collapse. None of us knows for sure what to think about it, but clearly more people are worried about it today than in the past. Resilience, adaptability - these are qualities to be commended. You are a leader.
Completely agree on the hybrid squash. I have been growing a simmilar variety in Tasmania with excellent yields. I could not find the seed this year and was dissapointed with poor yeilds from a heirloom variety.
For a crop that requires so few seeds and takes up so much space, the additional cost is well worth it.
Yes, for the squash, it is definitely worth it! I hope I will be able to do a decent variety trial of squash this year, and next year, and find some other varieties that work well.
I prefer hybrids for the pest/disease resistances and yields. When the pandemic hit I switched from 'this would be interesting to grow' to 'this will grow in my area and make a good crop'. I'm also saving seeds from plants that perform and this year I was able to plant third generation pickling cucumbers, emerald okra, sweet basil and red potatoes. This year I'm also working on short day onions, sweet potatoes, and an experiment to cross breed two types of tomato. Last year I wasn't able to get the seeds and starts I wanted so now I'm growing my own stock. It isn't ideal but it's better than seeing 'sold out' or 'limited availability' when I try to order something.
Hybrids- heritage / heirlooms. Such a good topic I would like to educate myself on. Thank you for your trials and sharing your knowledge
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I saw recently that Charles dowding had overwintered an F1 tomato cutting.. Pricked my interest 👍🏻
That sounds interesting, and a useful way to save on the seeds, and continue a variety.
Another fantastic video packed full of useful, logical information!!.... thank you my friend!!... My personal philosophy: If I cannot save seeds from it then I absolutely will not plant it because to me the most important aspect of growing a particular variety is the ability to be self sustaining in growing it.
Thanks! Sounds like a very appropriate philosophy. I know a lot of people have similar philosophies, though I wonder how many of them actually save seeds, or would really benefit and grow more food for themselves if they had a few hybrids in the mix, especially where the most important thing is to actually grow more food for themselves and others.
Hybrid does not mean sterile.
iv been following u for a wile now. its good 2 see u saving seeds
It is good to have the space and capacity to get back into seed saving.
You got so many interesting projects, thank you for sharing it with us!:)
I wholeheartedly just agree with everything you have presented here. I love my heirloom varieties that I grow here in Alberta Canada. I believe that biodiversity is never a bad thing,but perhaps embracing the science of hybrid seed is also not a bad thing. It’s a strange world we live in I suppose,but I think personally,anything(such as hybrid seed) that makes growing one’s own food more reliable is a good thing. 👍👍👍
Thank you! I do agree with you about focusing on the things that make growing our own food easier and more reliable. For now, some hybrids make sense, but I can imagine a number of scenarios where the reliability stops being available/reliable.
Brandywine remains one of my favorites. Big rainbow is also great for flavor. I wish they had more bish type with great flavor. Ace 55 bush is one of the best bush types I've grow . Waltham butternut remains my favorite winter squash. Red kuri is super productive but doesn't keep long.
Brilliant information and presentation. Clear rationale.
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another fantastic and interesting video. Always gives me food for thought and often gives me ideas to try
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I think tissue culturing and cloning is a viable thing to do to stretch the seeds further. You could grow a few seeds to make mother plants, and use them to make clones.
I know that some people have been doing that, which would be an interesting thing to explore. For me, right now at least, I am more interested in trying different varieties, and buying in the seeds I need.
I grow that same turnip here in Nebraska and have found it to be the best by far for here I am going to search out that beet to try now.
That is interesting, the same variety working well in a very different context.
Ive an attitude where if i find something good or useful i want to do my best to recreate it then share it with friends and family.
I may be only 22 but seeing how reliant most of us are on simple comodities and goods in the supermarket i find that learning to grow good food is at best a vital skill for the future and at worst a relaxing and enjoyable hobby.
It can be both of those, and so much more!
thanks so much, always really useful and good points raised
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Nice video and great observations. I am sure there is a place for hybrids, however saving your regional seeds is also a good way forward!
Darn climate differences; I cannot ripen some tomato verities in Ljubljana, Slovenia in the open. And I guess you might have problems with Slovenian beans in Ireland.
Keep up the good work!
The change of climate can be a headache at present. We can only hope for the best I consider good relations with other gardeners can only help.
Birdy
It is definitely a headache for many growers.
Great video, very informative and thank you for sharing.
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Also important to consider the differing nutrient densities between heirloom varieties and newer varieties, especially those developed for commercial agriculture (i.e. a lot of hybrids). Which are bred to grow faster and larger to maximise yield, but ostensibly at the expense of nutrients in the produce.
Very good point. I think that the taste can be a reasonable indicator of nutrition, or at least I hope it is.
One common misconception is that you can't save seeds from hybrids. The vast majority of hybrids will set fertile seeds, the issue is that the offspring will not be identical to the parents. They will, however, be similar, just with a lot more variation. It's possible to plant them and select from the offspring and gradually develop a strain you like from them, so in a situation where you can't get seeds don' t hesitate to save the seeds from your hybrid strains.
If you can plant enough plants to select for the traits you like, then I've heard you can fix a variety in a decade or two depending on the plant.
You could also find out what the parent varieties are and grow a few plants and cross them yourself
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@@tinnerste2507 That sounds like a long time, and with the parent varieties of these hybrids generally being highly bred and very secrete, doing the cross ourselves is basically impossible.
@@REDGardens it is a long time. Making new varieties and crosses is something that can easily take 10 generations of selective breeding to get a stable cross. Though, not all generations take the same time, peppers for example, can be stabilized within 3 years of active crossing.
I think it would be pretty interesting to see your take on making crosses and to see you make your own variety that's best suited to your climate. Even if it's not practical long term.
Heirloom vegetables have always been my favorite in regards to flavor but then I grew the hybrid cabbage called tete noire, which has unparalleled flavor I cannot praise highly enough. It's been very difficult to find these seeds in the United states, where I live, but I did find a couple of European seed companies who ship them internationally, but not to the US. So try them if you can get your hands on some and see how amazing this cabbage can be!
We had the same experience with a hybrid cabbage. Really surprised with the taste. Thanks for the tip about tete noire.
Excellent video, as always.
I think there is an overemphasis on 'greatest yield in ideal growing conditions'. If Ireland has, say a bad drought (as laughable a thought that might be!), or weeks of hurricane-force winds during prime growing season, all thoughts of 'what produces the most in usual conditions' might need to be dismissed in favour of 'what produces ANYTHING in these tough conditions'.
While most gardeners wince at willingly stressing plants out (and seeing what happens!), I think it's a vital activity for those aiming for self-sufficiency. Varieties which produce a survival-level of food in harsh conditions are as - if not more - valuable to the gardener as the varieties that produce high yields in preferred conditions.
Because you run a lot of informative experiments in your garden, I'd actually really love to see what happens if you attempt to save and use seed from f1 hybrids, even though it's not advised. In my experience, you CAN save those seeds, and while some end up being sterile... many just end up being different versions of the plants they originated from. This could mean that you unintentionally find variants that are even more suited to your needs and whose second-generation versions are more consistently duplicated in even further generation plantings. This would be a big undertaking, especially if you wanted to trial multiple different species across at least two or three years, but I'm hoping this question scratches at your brain the way it does mine, and curiosity leads you to investigate and document as you're able!
I've been thinking of trying something like that.
@@REDGardens ::vibrates with barely-contained excitement::
Find out what the parent plants are for your favourite hybrid, they may be able to be grown and self crossed every few years for fresh seed
I think that info is usually a closely held secret, and the parent plants are not available varieties.
That's a shame! Yeah, plant breeding is a commitment for sure. I don't do much myself other than saving seed from the "best" plant. It's slow and steady.
Agree with you completely about seed costs. Production, speed, viability and disease resistance make it an insignificant cost. Time and space are much more important concerns, so if you are growing plants that produce little and get hit by every disease, who cares if you saved a dollar on the seed packet.
Zombie Apocalypse - Hybrid plants do produce seeds, but those seeds might, or might not be the same plant as the original plant. But in the end, they are still going to be some type of mix between two viable parents and produce edible food. You can still harvest seeds from them and still produce food in the event that your supply of seeds gets cut off from zombies.
I think one of the things I will do next season is actually grow out some hybrid vegetable seeds I gather and see just how bad the results are. I've done it with tomatoes in the past and honestly there wasn't much of a difference between the seeds I bought and the seeds I gathered from them. There were definitely edible tomatoes pretty close to the parent plant and certainly enough to get you through a few seasons of zombie attacks.
Great video! I've grown lots of hybrids over the years and they are hard to beat especially sweet corn. But availability is a concern now. Do open pollinated varieties that cross with other OP varieties still do ok and taste ok when planting from saved seeds? Thanks for all the great info!
You shave less often when your busy, you can tell how hard you work.
Thanks for all your wisdom.
Thank you. It has been a busy period, but it is also the time when people are most interested in new videos. A bit of an issue that I have not sorted yet.
Hybrid has this negative mysterious scientific connotation for certain people outside of their just not being able to save seeds. They don't realize that their beloved heirloom variety was almost certainly a hybrid at some point.
Yup. My family were farmers and lived through times when literally their food and livelihood depended on the success of their crops. My father highly valued hybrids because most of them gave better and higher yields when compared to older varieties.
It’s easy to romanticize heirloom varieties when one gardens as a hobby and there’s always the supermarket if something goes wrong. One learns to be more practical and appreciate technology when all one’s food comes from one’s own labor.
Why and How We Save Seeds - John Kempf . Do you listen to MP3s or anything while you work?
Thanks for the recommendation. I generally stick with my own thoughts while working.
My home saved carrot seed seems to germinate way faster than bought seed?anyone noticed same?
I have noticed the same. I suspect it is both better quality seeds, and fresher seed, though it is not something I have explored.
Great video as ever, but I think you missed an important part of the story. Some veg are self pollinating, some need to cross pollinate. The latter benefit from hybrid vigor, while the former don't. With the cross pollinators, producing f1's is the only way to get a genetically consistent crop with hybrid vigor. It's not just for control, it's also a really useful technique, so as a market gardener, I am keen to support the production of organic appropriate f1 hybrids, and I hope that as a community we could maintain them through a collapse scenario
Interesting point. I share your hopes about organic appropriate hybrids being maintained by communities.
nothing is sprouting this year, all my damn peas are turning into compost
I'm starting to doubt seed producers all my beef steak tomatoes germinated, and none of my cherry varieties, I treated them exaclty the same yet big difference in outcome (100% to 0%). I wouldn't moan but with the price of seeds 0% germination is just robbery.
There can be some bad seed germination out there.
@@REDGardens Love your content, from Montreal, I love the way you collect data. Very respectable, I do not have the attention span. The fact that they’re seeds from the dollar store don’t help, haha
@@DragonKnightRyue Thanks!! I would be impressed if anything sprouted at all from seeds from the dollar store!
Yes, heirloom where possible, but hybrid F1s for many high cost varieties. I'm interested that you freeze some seeds. Only unopened packets, or part used too? Any special instructions to follow? Perhaps it would make a subject for one of your excellent videos. I'm sure others would be interested too.
Happy sowing and growing
I don't have a lot of experience with freezing the seeds, so am hesitant to 'recommend' anything. What I have been doing is repackaging the seeds into smaller sealed plastic ziplock bags (properly labeled of course), and sealing them in a container in the fridge. I have been using the vacuum sealer I have, which removes most of the air/moisture. When I need to get some more seeds, I just pull out one of the smaller bags, without disturbing or thawing the rest of the seeds. Others have recommended using silica gel to fully dry the seeds first, which I have tried, but don't know how important it is. I have also heard recommendations to put oxygen absorbers in to the sealed containers, but I am not sure about that. I guess it depends on how long you want to keep them. I am not sure if freeze thaw cycles will badly affect the seeds, but it is something I want to avoid if possible.
@@REDGardens thank you. It's worth giving it a go. Even with expensive F1 varieties, I rarely finish packets, apart from the miserable cucumber packets!
@@AJWGBFX That is another factor with buying seed packets that I didn't mention. I can get open pollinated squash seeds in packs so big that I will never use them all before they get too old, unless I take serious measures to store them. But because they are so cheap, it doesn't seem to make sense to put in the effort.
What would happen if you saved the seeds from the F1 hybrids? Would the resulting plants be different?
Yes, apparently the plants will be different.
Thanks for this video!
I only prefer to by seeds this year If they are seedproof. So I can take my own seeds for the next season.
This time it seems to be better. The plants are in better health and they grow better because the varieties had grown in my space of garden!
Have a good time and see you soon!
Hello my dear friend!🙂👍514
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I would love to have you do a trial of what happens when you grow vegetables from hybrid seeds. I've never done it but I suspect that it will bear very similar vegetables. I was convinced that hybrid seeds harvested from vegetables would either not fruit or they would produce some sort of abomination. Now, I believe that hybrid seeds will produce very similar vegetables and the the differences will not be noticeable at all but I have no experience or evidence for my hypothesis.
That would be an interesting thing to experiment with.
You have to choose you battles when running a market garden
indeed!
This video is good stuff
Thanks!
prilled carrot and lettuce seeds are great
I have not tried them, but can imagine they are easier to sow.
Cracking is more to do with how good you are as a grower rather than variety I do prefer heirlooms better I never get any cracking ever with them.
The only real con with hybrids is that saved seeds won't give you the variety you bought so, if you can't buy seeds one year, you won't have the variety you have become used to.
There's some plants I can't grow out to seed anyway. So it doesn't matter if I buy hybrid or open pollinated varieties.
I find the same with brassicas and other crops that take too much effort, time and space to save seed from. It maters less if I get hybrid or open varieties. To get around the issue of not being able to buy seeds from varieties I like, I sometimes buy extra quantities when I can and store them in the freezer.
@@REDGardens There is an amazing difference in hybrid and non-hybird sweet corn. Sweet corn is one crop people should learn to grow and preserve in case of a food shortage. How long do you think you can freeze hybrid seed for down the road planting? Great video as always. Thanks!
How tall does the eggplant Falcon F1 grow? I just checked my local suppliers and they mention rather small growth, suitable for containers. What is your experience with plant´s habitat? I know you grow eggplants as only one stem and hang them the same way as tomatoes.
They grow tall because they are pruned to only one leader. All varieties would probably do similar. I don't know what the typical habit for this variety would be.
@@REDGardens Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to hear. Will definitely try Falcon next year. This year trying Black Prince - already fighting with aphids in the greenhouse. Those damn ants keep bringing them up on eggplants non-stop. Not mentioning all carrots seedlings are getting sucked dry :)
Interesting
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I'm still trying to understand the Hybrid system. I understand that they have been commodified and that it is "illegal" to use the seeds but have they been genetically altered so that they do not regrow? Or is it a fear of repercussions issue, that in the collapse scenario mentioned wouldn't be enforcable?
I guess what I'm saying is if you planted your the seeds from those amazing looking pumpkins, would they grow?
The seeds of hybrids are viable, but will probably produce radically different plants from their parents.
There is no altering of genetics in the sense of GMO, just a cross of two specific varieties that produces plants that are all very similar and have favorable properties like disease resistance.
I can't explain this any better in a youtube comment, if you want to know more you will have to use your google-fu ;)
There are 2 effects used to produce hybrid seeds:
1. When 2 varieties are crossed, the characteristics of the first child generation (F1) is very predictable, the characteristics of the following generations fan out again, so one would have to select over some generations to get a stable variety again, that selection process is basically the same as breeding a classic new variety.
2. Heterosis, see wikipedia on that for starters.
@@stefanklein7500 Good answer, thanks. Theo one point I would add is that apparently the parent plants are very inbred within their own lines, and even quite weak plants, which allows the initial F1 cross to be so uniform. Or at least that is what I have read. I think the opposite happens when crossing two open pollinated varieties, which tend to have a robust or broader genetics which causes the first generation to be very broad and diverse. But perhaps I am wrong about that.
@@REDGardens All I know on that topic is from an exelent (german) video by "Saatenvielfalt", sadly the automatic translated subtitles are quite poor.
He mentions 6-8 years extreme inbreed of the parents, though I'm not sure if that is done for uniformity or to trigger the heterosis (or both).
@@stefanklein7500 It makes sense to me that it would be for both uniformity and heterosis.
In the longer term, saving seed from hybrid varieties is not a serious concern to me. I'm following Joseph Lofthouse's method of landrace gardening. Hybrids are a genetically diverse source to start the process of breeding my own locally adapted varieties. It does take a lot of land and a long term commitment.
Didn’t know there was a “Leprechaun courgette” variety ☘️
Yeah. Wasn't impressed with it.
I do not know how you find the time and energy to do all your trials/videos/composting as well as take care of extensive gardens AND save seeds. You might be an F1 hybrid yourself?
haha, a different kind of hybrid vigour!
I gravitate towards OSSI seed if available, but use whatever else looks interesting.
The main downside of F1 is that they can be very expensive. I once accidentally bought a F1 cucumber, and was disappointed to find only 5 seeds in the packet.
Nothing preventing seed-saving from F1 hybrids, and the parent plants may actually not always be that different from each other, which may produce slightly varying but completely acceptable F2 plants. And then there's the added possibility selecting out your very own variety from the gene mix that is F1, without first learning how to cross-pollinate self-pollinating crops such as tomatoes and beans.
It could be interesting to try saving seeds of the squash that did well for you, the properties *you* care about *could* already be stable, and you'd have the opportunity to curate a landrace that suits your setting.
Carol Deppe's «Breed your own vegetable varieties» is an excellent book on the topic, tho, admittedly, I have yet to put this knowledge to good use.
You are right about being able to save seeds from the hybrids. I should have clarified that it is possible, only less likely to get the same characteristics. it would be very interesting to dehybridise some of these varieties, and possibly easier as you mention, than starting with a deliberate cross. Something to possibly explore in the next few years.
Very interesting! I'm only growing to keep myself in veggies so this isn't a massive issue for me, BUT - this past season I grew an F1 hybrid sweetcorn and it was truly awesome. I've ordered another packet! The thing is, that even though the F1s are more expensive, there's normally enough for at least two seasons, beyond which both types of seed can be a bit marginal. The thing is, you don't have weeks and weeks to find out that your heritage variety has failed to germinate, whereas the hybrids are very good. I'm going to use more hybrids from now on (probably music to the breeders' ears lol).
I get the sense that hybrid seeds generally have better germination, and I suspect it is because there is more care put into the seed saving, because they are more expensive. And also because they are commonly used by professional growers who are not tolerant of poor quality seeds.
I had a strange experience, Italian tomatoes on the one side, Russia tomatoes close by, a few Russian tomatoes had the same shape as the Italian with the colour of a Russian tomatoe. This would be a F1 hybrid.
the fruit wouldn't be effected by cross pollination though only the resultant seed would
@@michaeltoner1993 that's what I thought maybe my imagination!
That does sound strange.
You don't sound Irish. Was just there last year. Are you altering your speech or are you a Canadian transplant? Just curious.
He is from Canada
Heirloom tomatoes Cherokee Purple and purple calabash
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Well, for 2023, if you still have that weedy plot still weedy.... you could try some seeds saved from your hybrids - I know what the science has to say about that - it would be interesting to see what mother nature has to say about that... :)
That would be interesting.
organic seeds are such a sham IMO...
even if your seeds were dunked in pesticides how much of that do you think would actually make it into the fully grown plant and then again into the part of the plant that you consume?
it makes about as much sense as homeopathy.
also if you're interested you could look into the process of stabilizing a hybrid. it's not like you choose to develop a hybrid as opposed to an open pollinated variety, open pollinated varieties are just stabilized hybrids.
Grow with whatever works for you.
I think I might try to stabilise the one cross in this batch, it will be an interesting experiment.
@@REDGardens I'd love to see a video on it if you do! :D
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I always prefer op and heirloom
How ever.
I had a C. Jalapeno X Sweet banana f1.
Once. They must be recreated yearly.
NOT WORTH THE EFFORT.
That sounds like an interesting cross.
Save your seeds.
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Tbh, the first time I saw this channels name I thought this would be a socialist gardening channel and hoped you'd be part of open seed banks and cooperatives, which I'm reminded of seeing this video.
Haha, some people see the name and think negative things, and others see the name and assume positive things. It is just me, (somewhere between black and red, if you were wondering).