Upside-Down vs "Normal" Forks | What’s The Difference?
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Which motorcycle forks are better? Right-way-up forks are more common but the best bikes have upside-down forks. So here are the differences, why inverted forks are better and whether you need them.
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📖 CHAPTERS
0:00 Inverted vs Right-way up forks
0:36 Construction
0:56 Conventional Forks
1:36 USD Forks
1:48 Rigidity
2:56 Unsprung Weight
3:51 Where USD Forks Are Found
4:07 Better Looking
4:15 Adjustability
4:37 Materials
4:59 USD Downsides
5:20 Do You Need USD Forks? 
Авто/Мото
What I really learned from this video was finally, WTF unsprung weight is
Reduce unsprung weight- lighter wheels, tires and brakes, will increase performance.
But is the rear suspension Swingarm unsprung weight or not, (or half) ?
And the transmission chain ?
I never had the answer
@@gsbeak
Everything that moves up and down is insprung mass which is bad for suspension performance.
The swing-arm, chain and rear sprocket are all unsprung and, therefore, should be as light as possible.
That is why motorcycles with shaft drive, which is heavy, like the Triumph Rocket3, BMW boxer twins and Moto-Guzzi V-twins, all have a hard ride.
This can be improved a bit, but not overcome, by better quality dampers. The mass of the unsprung parts needs to be reduced and that can only done by lightweight swing-arms, brakes, wheels and tyres.
Never knew what upside downs are better thanks for explaining
😂
They aren't, depends on components inside, not the position
Conventional forks that are correctly sprung for your weight and have emulators fitted will be better to ride with than a $10 000 pair of USD forks that are over sprung which is often the case. As with all suspension unless it is correctly set up with the correct spring weight and oil viscosity, air gap and valving for the conditions where you ride the USD forks will be far too “hard” and make riding bumpy roads absolutely brutal.
@@WillPower46why are you spreading lies😂?
@WillPower46 so conventional wins when it's absolutely best case scenario for conventional and absolutely worst case for inverted forks. Got it... lol
MAN LOVE THE COLOUR ON THE R1
I have had both, for everyday riding there are not much differences, but when you push a little, upside down forks gives you more confidence of control
Solid comparison! The thing I'd add in support of right side up forks is them being more compliant, even when set to a stiffer setting, as they have quite a bit more flex built in than usd forks. I actually figured this out by accident one time when rebuilding a set of air forks and, after having lowered them 2" and shortening the springs, forgot to air them up. The forks were bottomed out and I took the bike out for a ride. Obviously big hits here rough (like riding a BMX bike) but just riding around on surface streets at traffic pace, it wasn't that bad. There's always going to be a baseline of compliance built in to non USD forks that you really can't get with the rigid USD forks, and it's why I don't use them on any of my builds.
Certain flex, yes, but they also have a lot of unwanted flex, as in, the forks stop remaining parallel and the front axle starts pointing in directions that the triple tree is not, or when the motorcycle frame starts to lean over into a curve, the front tire doesn't follow that angle exactly because of "splay". This can get very dangerous in some cases if a motorcycle is being used for racing or someone is putting a lot of speed and power into it, as these flexy fork issues can start dangerous steering oscillation and cause a wreck.
The “why” conventional was standard is almost right, but it’s not really about seals being better today. It’s about potential damage to the stanchions CAUSING leaks. You can see this reflected in the design of front fenders today: Even the best seals can’t seal against a pitted and rusted stanchion.
It’s easier to protect them on conventional forks because they are further away from the road. Closer to the road is where they will get sand-blasted by road debris. Conventional orientation often puts the sensitive parts behind a fairing or windscreen to protect them from the elements too.
Look at the front fender design of a 2007 EX250F compared to a 2008 EX250J/K. Both bikes have conventional forks, but can you put your finger on what makes the updated fender design look more modern? It’s the extra side fins protecting the forks. That’s right: The 2008+ Ninjette fender design is pretending it has USD forks to look more modern so it can play with the big boys. ;)
Yeah. It’s better to have a conventional fork if your seals are leaking but it’s also less likely to leak and leaks aren’t always the seal’s fault.
Conventional forks used to have a big problem when the rider ahead of you kicked up debris and tiny bits of sand into the forks but all that went away when fork protectors became standard. I don't think I've seen a recent conventional fork bike without fork protectors.
I don't think it matters much compared to the better quality suspension components we now get on modern bikes. The last three bikes I've owned have high and low speed compression damping which makes a huge difference.
I can agree, my forks are scratched. They capture quite a bit of sand for being inverted
And conventional forks don't leak oil into the brakes when the seal fails, and fail it will
Another thing to note, the fancy golden coatings on the shiny part of the fork are there to reduce friction, the tendency of a telescopic fork to stick before releasing and going through a stroke motion. This is not usually a problem until it comes to small vibrations and bumps that aren't big enough to force the fork to move, and you have a high speed compression damping circuit that's trying to bring more compliance to the chatter on a road surface. High speed damping circuits are only available on very expensive forks and shocks (you can also buy them aftermarket for certain motorcycle models).
The further over a motorcycle leans the less able a fork is to absorb bumps and the more a frame has to flex to do that work. The bumps are now acting like a twisting force on the motorcycle steering yoke, rather than a perpendicular compression to the fork. Ducati once made their Panigale frame too stiff and the superbike was very difficult to keep good traction at high lean angles, because naturally the fork and rear shock cannot comply with the ground surface nearly as well as the forces are sideways rather than perpendicular.
Gosh I remember when adjusting forks meant changing the fluid for a thicker viscosity, 5,10,15 etc. or adding a spacer at the top of the springs, or not. Fancy that.
Video idea: Convert that MT07 to USD setup
Even the MT-125 and the MT-03 has USD why not the 07 ?
@@chrishart8548 The MT07 is Yams bread and butter, selling tons of bikes to new riders that won't notice the difference for a long time, bringing in loads of profit for Yamaha. Changing a known formula, and thereby increasing production cost and sales price for something that most people won't notice, makes no sense. The 03 and 125 were probably designed with USDs from the start, while not being such a huge part of their profit estimates. Comes down to the dough, every time
Bike like mt07 are more about the balance of the components and when done right it is a fun bike that works better than it parts look on paper. Even experienced rider wont fault that bike for the type of fork it has. It's entry level bike and that's it.
@@JamesParus well some people just won't buy the MT-07 because of the forks
Using words like "better" and "best" assumes that we all have the same goals or needs and are usually completely subjective. USD forks are definitely more rigid, but that results in a stiffer ride with more feedback. There are occasions in which a stiffer ride is worse, like rough terrain over long distance.
Conventional forks are less fatiguing than USD forks and provide a more dampened, softer ride. Casual bikes, like commuters cruisers, tourers and many dualsports use regular forks to aid in more rider comfort and less fatigue.
Also, (the most perfect bike for regular people) the DRz400S forks are fully adjustable for rebound and damping.
Performance bikes benefit from performance enhancements, but some bikes derive their desirability from comfort.
you dont get the difference bewteen torsion rigidity and spring rigidity😂... also upside down had lower unsprung mass
This is not categorically correct though. USD as a design is superior to RWU, flex can still be engineered into an USD fork by the way of thinner stanchions etc, the design of the USD fork simply means they get better seal life (if adequately covered by a mud guard) and superior resistance to abuse for a similar spec and weight RWU fork.
@ werepat Beautifully put 🤟🏽
All about FEEL.. take two bikes one w/ non-USD and one with, average experienced rider .. couldn't tell the diff... the triple trees on a USD offer less flex.. you put a aftermarket set of quality upper and lower yokes on a non-USD fork... just as good as any USD... aesthetics.. personally I like the older style non-USDs.. Proper set up, correct spring rates, fluids .. they work as well as or better any of the floor factory set USD.. remember we're speaking of SHOWA, KAYABA proprietary suspension.. meaning their suspension vendor either SHOWA or Kayaba .. WP, even Ohlins (unless aftermarekt) are built to the said manufacturers price point and specs.. a lower spec USD fork.. standard Kayaba could be inferior to an up spec SHOWA non-USD all depends on the manufacturer spec and price point.. We're not speaking of $10-20K Ohlins WSBK or MotoGP spec fork here.. mass produced proprietary suspension is only as good as the manufacturers set spec sheet...
A fork that performs the same task, geared towards street riders, can be serviced easily, and is cheaper!
Take (a fraction of) my money :D
My little 200 cc has shown adjustable conventional forks at front and I am pretty happy with it
Showa shocks??
In MTB Rock Shock released an inverted fork a few years ago (the one shown in the video), but has not become the standard for high end forks, other than Cannondale’s Lefty, single arm forks. That is something I would love to see coming to motorcycling.
The new cowboy cross e bicycle has inverted forks too. Looks really great. Only 40 mm travel though cause it's not an mtb
Thorough , informative and simple. loved the content.
Amazing video. I've learned quite a few things about suspensions
For us bottom feeders who are trying to keep ancient wrecks on the road, the right side up forks have a big advantage: They can be straightened after a crash. Some 70s-era manuals even include instructions on how to do it.
I'll say again you did an amazing job with that R1. It looks incredible.
I know I need confidence and safety along with my speed runs to the coffee shop!😊. I often put my knee on the road through the drive through…😊. And when I break quickly at the order booth…USD forks really make the difference 😊. You really have to be doing some serious riding to appreciate the difference…other than looks.
great explanation - cheers!
Another plus for rightside up forks fot me is when i go ofroad though mud pools, the shiny parts stays shiny longer :p
One advantage of right side up forks is that you get less road salt and brake dust on the delicate chrome, this helps if you ride a lot in winter, I tend to be somewhat careless with my bikes sometimes and you can get corrosion on the fork chrome if you forget to wash it, with conventional forks the chances of this happening are smaller
I had regular forks on my '08 Suzuki SV1000S (which is a powerful, yet chilled sport tourer), which was fine, but the bike did feel "spongy" and not as direct in corners, very comfortable though. Then later I had an '09 Honda CBR600RR, which had USD forks, and obviously, being a sport bike, it felt much more stiff, snappy and direct in corners, but a bit more uncomfortable on longer rides, etc. But overall, I love the look and feel of USD forks, I was actually even considering doing the GSXR1000 fork mod on my SV1000S, which is apparently a very nice upgrade to the SV1000S.
Don´t do that, simply put a Öhlins spring/oil upgrate in your SV1000S normal forks and it will be enough. I have improved springs and oil in my 1998 Hornet 600 normal forks and the bike is in another level, much better than the new Hornet 2024 with butter-soft upside-down forks when breaking, my 1998 Hornet don´t move when breaking... Now imagine if i spend 1000 dollars with a 100% adjustable Öhlins kit... The video guy is a circus, he did not talk about the mass, normal forks have better mass move because the weight is down next to the ground.
What a refreshingly well explained video! Instant like and sub from me.
Man, that color in that r1 is amazing.
I would choose a motorcycle with a conventional fork for commuting. My bike though has an USD fork and every 10000 kms I need to pay to rebuild the front (new seals, oil etc)
My mt01 one has inverted forks and in 110.000 km I never had to do anything. I did change the bearings once, prevention maintenance
At 96 yamaha thunderace still had conventional fork. With massive 48mm inner tubes. R1 had usd at 98. R6 had normal for very long time.
A pretty recent subscriber here. Love the content👍
I really miss you baseball cap though😊
Havent really tried "normal" forks. However owning 90's Ducatis with USD forks do however show why they sometimes can be annoying (leaking forks)
very insightful👍
thank you! i now understand usd forks and can talk to the salesmen at the dealership with confidence! win!! the R1 looks incredible btw
My conventional forks were leaking after the bike not being used for a while, because the seals dried out. With USD forks, the seal lives longer when not in use, because there is oil against the seal.
Yeah thats a Good Point !
Fckng incredible explanation, props!
The best explanation ever.
Your r1 is looking nice man
I think from what I'm seeing here, for the average driver, maintenance wise, cost and ease of workability the conventional for that is upgraded to cartridges is actually a pretty decent option. You're losing in rigidity, but you gain in the forks not spilling their oil out when the seals go bad, and also overall cost, as well as your ability to easier service your own suspension. I just did a traxxion dynamics ar25 on my XSR700 and feels really good. It was only 500 bucks but it's very confidence inspiring in the turns and at high speeds.
Great explanation! 👍 Now explain that 99% of riders can’t tell the difference.
It all makes a ton of sense and something I was always curious about. I wonder if inverted forks are more likely to accumulate dirt and contaminants due to being closer to the road surface.
My honda grom has usd forks, lovely stuff
Sometimes simple USD forks were used on basic bikes - must be cheaper to make. Often they were grease lubricated.
An interesting application for full sized bikes was the Dowty forks of the 1940s. They were adapted from WW2 aeroplane landing gear, saving weight of steel springs. They reportedly worked well when new, but sealing was not perfected so USD didn't take off then. Bad seal didn't just mean oil leaks - you lost your air spring too. Dowty still in business I think, making suspensions for Airbus.
In japan still using normal setup because it's easy to work and never fail for safety when seal broke the oil stay on tube sliders
Don´t believe this guy, my 1998 Hornet 600 normal forks are stronger and rigid than the new Hornet 2024 nonadjustable upside-down forks.... This guy is talking bs, he doesnt know what is inside of a normal fork, the Spring type, spring rigity, oil type, oil seals, etc A well made Normal fork is much better than a cheap upside-down fork
Trends...
@@Big1_ absolutely!!! I agree! 👍
I love my 06 upside down the right one started leaking again its awesome
Conventional forks are lighter and cheaper. I don't race on the track. Norton Roadholder Frorks gave a superb ride and simple maintenance. I currently ride a VFR. Handles brilliantly. Look I have changed the oil once just because I'm Picky.
Oil dripping onto your front brake when the fork seal is bad isn't a disadvantage of USD forks. Normal forks have the same issue. I've had 2 bikes so far, both with normal forks and on both the fork seals went bad at one point, which lead to significantly reduced brake performance.
Good one
A fork that performs the same task, geared towards street riders, can be serviced easily, and is cheaper!
Take (a fraction of) my money :D
Upside down forks are inverted Monotubes, just like Bilstein's used in race cars, and many Subaru's. And the copy of Bilstein... Ohlins! KYB also did inverted Monotubes for the Subaru Impreza WRX. not to mention all the others that have come after like Reiger. the best thing about Monotube shocks, is they hold more oil, but they hold the oil at the top, there is a thin (was 9.5mm but later upgraded to 10mm rod that extends down to the bottom of the shock body *that is why there is a nut on the bottom of Billsteins in cars, and there can also be a very thin rod inside that other rod, that can be turned to adjust (open/close) any bypasses to send fluid around the Valving to soften the low speed (and the high speed whilst it doing it), but thit that setup, the rod is 12mm as in Ohlins with adjustment.
one of the benefits is that only the shock body and inner rod are the moving parts and the reservoir that hold the oil is at the top where it doesn't really move in relation to the vehicle, however, unlike twin tube shocks where the oil is pushed up the inner tube and drains down the outer tube (with a valve at each end of the inner tube, one for bump and the other for rebound. the Monotube which has a piston separating the Nitrogen from the oil, and another piston that has valving on either side of it to control resistance for bump and rebound, It can run in ANY orientation as the oil doesn't have to drain down an outer tube, to reach the bottom of the inner tube. l see rear shocks in cars that appear similar to factory Twin tube shocks.
And with upside down with an extra tube over the top. the only reason the outer seal would leak is if the inner seal has gone, replacing the outer seal does nothing, because that's not the problem. and the weight? well on a Motorcycle with a monotube shock the weight is in the oil at the bottom of the shock, so upside down shocks are NOT actually lighter at the bottom, they just hold more oil and resist fade, have a better and EASIER to change valve shim stack & can be fine tuned much easier... yes these high performance shocks are EASIER to mess with!
I went from that very MT07 model to a gen 3 MT09. The Gen 3 has the USD and i immedialy felt a differance. It could be because they were set up better for my weight on the MT09 but i can't help feel it was partially also because the were USD.
Also, greetings from Ireland 🇮🇪
Great video 👍
did you try fork shocks? I've using them for more than 10 years, and I never had any seal problems...
you bought mt07 🤔 have not seen this bike before 😄
I've only ever owned KTM's, and they always use USD forks, so I dont know any different.
But I do love KTM suspension, so I cant complain.
I always supposed the inverted suspension was better but never knew why. I only rode conventional ones but I have bad experiences, probably because they're cheap. I'm in urge to change them now, oil-rings doesn't seal at all and I'm running out of oil. A typical trip around the city is like an off-road adventure!
More like cheap person than a cheap bike. You will only notice the difference on a heavy bike at high lean on flowing bumps. Light bikes regular is better.
I missed something somewhere. Where is the MT09 and where did the MT07 come from?
Your MT-07? When did that happen?
Both works well for me
I thought USD forks would be cheaper to make. The slider on a conventional fork is a large cast part that needs a lot of machining.
The top of an USD fork is just an extrusion that is easy to machine and cheap to make. The chrome tune is the same on both and the only complex part to machine in a USD fork is the bottom bit which holds the axle and calipers and that part is small and easy to die cast.
I always wondered why we didn't start with USD forks from the beginning. I never thought about the oil seals being a reason.
I have ride a yamaha MT-07 with conventional right way up forks. There was a down hill curve close to my works and the bike didn't feel too confidence inspiring going around the curve this is in contrast to my new Trident 660 which was way more confidence inspiring going along the same downhill curve.
its all abouth unsprung weight so with racing they put the part that is heavier on the top so it can work the suspension
Usd is not a costly or premium stuff.. In India we have so much own brands using Usd in their products. Which are not costly at all but, provides good performance. For example, in bajaj Ns400Z which costs less than a yamaha R15 but have 43mm Usd and it's very very reliable.
And even hornet 2.0
"Reliable" isn't a word I would use with Bajaj.
@@onepunchman6165 KTM and Husqvarna motorcycles are also made by Bajaj. And those are not known to be "unreliable".
@@onepunchman6165 sometimes
@@onepunchman6165bajaj needs maintenance only
Keep it in good condition it will last forever
There's still a market, albeit limited, for quality RWU forks. Ohlins still produce their Custom 43 RWU forks with full adjustability, which will set you back about £2.5k. RWU definitely looks better on retro models and I'm surprised Norton didn't go for those on the 961, rather than the USD option.
I hate the usd forks on my CRF300L. Dirt and dings happen a lot off-road, I'm sick of changing fork seals. It's a defining characteristic of this model that the suspension is crappy cheap, non adjustable, and under sprung anyway, so what was the advantage over conventional?
Difference is I’ve never had an upside down for seal go on me, had a couple on the normal fork, simple.
Nice bike❤ the carbon
How often do you have to change the rubber seal on usd forks?
I don't want any oil on my breaks.
Every time you change the fork oil, every 5 years.
I'll take the more durable one, thank you very much.
When did he get a mt 07?
Great video, but if MV Agusta made a bike with no suspension I'd still probably buy it soo...
Can you do a video explaining how to set up suspension for dummies I have the same r1
Dave Moss tuning.
Whats next for the R1?
I hate conventional. Every bike i have uses inverted. I even paid more for an r1m just for the Ohlins suspension!! Love my 18 r1m!!
Well also normal forks like old Yamaha r6 are adjustable in both directions .. it’s not that you can’t have adjustable forks it’s just a money thing like usd as well
Hang on when did you get an MT07?
Motorcross works bikes were using upside forks in the 80s
Interesting, I did not know that! That's why there's no better sport than motocross
Yes this is all great if you're running a sportbike but a cruiser not so much
I was going to to by a 2004 CBR 600rr but I couldn’t stand the look of the right side up forks
I used to like USD fork, but the difference to telescopic fork in daily commute are negligible
I have had bikes with both conventional and USD forks and tbo unless you are a race track fanatic they make very little difference in the real world. Currently I have had conventional forks rebuild and customised for my bike and weight by Maxton, they are noticeably better than any stock forks of both types I have used on real roads, not tried them on a track yet.
Awesome
My 50cc cagiva cocis suprisingly has Upside-down forks. 😮
another advantage of a USD Fork is that the seal is always covered by oil from above. It minimizes Friction , and can potentially prolong the lifespan of a Seal.
When the seal fails all of the oil comes out, on the regular forks not
Most of the oil is inside the bottom steel tube where the damping and spring is. It's not 'all' against the seal. I have driven years with slight leak in usd fork. Just wipe it occasionally. Even normal fork leaks like a pig if the seal is really bad.
Did you trade your mt09 for a mt07
I gotto say that I have an conventional fully tunable "spork" (two of them) with low and high speed compression, dampening, preload and rebound, and it's air based suspension :)......Other than those Upside-down all the way....
Honda grom having inverted forks😏🤙🏾
Since when have you had an MT-07?
Inverted forks also mean the bumps are absorbed into the body of the bike, not into the front wheel, which is much better for stability …
Please wrap the golden forks on your R1 to black or other colors, it doesn't go well with the Blue.
Ridiculous comment 😂🤡😵
Never been this early before
When did the bottom yoke become the triple clamp??
Because there are Top AND Bottom ' triple-trees '
mmmKay 'triple-clamp' or 'yoke' if you prefer, they are still called ' top and bottom ' anyways
Cheers
Surron on top
i mean my used 800$ chinese dirtbike has upside down forks but they still strong after 10 years
I may be wrong but don't you call the two main parts a cylinder and a piston?
The forks referred to as upside down preceded to one’s now referred to as normal.
Were is the mt09
USD forks are great for people who use their bikes to the max. I commute and use my bike to go on the odd tour of less than 3k miles. I’m also fat, lazy and about as sporty as your average office-working father of two. I’ll take conventional forks (with adjustability) if I can find them.
@903lew Beautifully put 🤟🏽
My BMW g310r has USD forks, still doesn't make it a good bike 😂😂
did you sell our mt09
Mt07? What did I miss?
Long answer short: Flex, or lack of it.
It feels like it is re-upload.
Always had standard forks, but I now have upside down forks, and I don't see much difference. I ride like a granny though XD
Yet Ninja 500 still has RWU Forks
Its a small 'slow' beginner friendly budget bike. Still great.