Sorry in advance for the War & Peace length youtube comment but . . . Imho, it's partially a supertuck issue but a bit more nuanced and complicated than that. It's about higher entry speed + supertuck. If everyone enters at same speed, supertuck itself is not enough to break the stickiness of the draft in my experience. But, if someone is trying to form a gap on the descent, then entering a descent at higher speed than the field (i.e. sprinting through them right at the apex) can be devastating. Two recent examples: 1) I did PRL Full with a group at the end of December and stayed with the same group working together for 4+ hours - which means I did the same 2-minute-ish descent 11 times with a group. Not only could I stop pedaling on the downhill, I could literally get off the bike for 2 minutes and stretch (PRL Full is a long ride 😅) and still be with the pack at the bottom of the descent. There were about 8 of us and it did not matter who had supertuck or where we sat in the pack - we all stayed bunched. I can't tell you our relative weights - but I think what is important here is supertuck by itself doesn't cause gaps. 2) Zwift World Series Power to the Tower is the next example. This was a different sort of situation where I was trying to pickup time on the field with descents. Here, I very specifically hit into the descents very hard to break wheels and not just a little bit. I aggressively hit 1,200+W sprints at the apex and then into supertuck. There was one rider 8 seconds ahead of me in supertuck and I absolutely flew past him on the descent. I also took 30 seconds out of the 5 or 6 people that entered the descent with me but at much slower speed. My descent speed was topping out at 90+ kph while they were in the low 70 kph range). In that same ride, I took 50 seconds out of a rider on Epic descent because there are multiple kickers where you can take entry speed over the apex into supertuck. The guy I took 50 seconds out of was also in supertuck the whole descent as well as we both had gapped the field. But . . . he didn't hit an initial sprint as hard to gain entry speed and he also didn't do enough to put in power on the kickers of that descent to maintain / increase descent speed. Long and short, it's more about the speed you take into supertuck than supertuck itself from what I've seen. Weight absolutely plays a part as well in terms of the back end physics calculation being done but I think, in order of importance, it's 1) high entry speed + 2) supertuck +3) extra momentum from weight. Any favorable combination of those three can break the stickiness of the draft. And because draft power fades with distance, I think that's where you were seeing that steering out of a weak draft bonus at distance to get into supertuck was more powerful. At enough distance, supertuck bonus becomes stronger than weak draft bonus. To sum up, drafting directly behind supertuck is fine if you all enter at the same speed. But, if the supertuck rider had higher entry speed (and this will often be the case - that's why they are out front) they can break the stickiness of draft. Old style, with everyone in supertuck, the riders behind would get supertuck bonus + draft bonus I believe - which would make it much harder for the front rider to pull away - front rider had less bonus than the field. But, that prior double-bonus behavior for the riders behind the front is what caused that silly group churn + group descent speed. New style is front rider gets supertuck bonus and everyone else gets draft bonus only - which can work fine and keep a group together if entry speed / weight / momentum are close enough. But, if entry speed and momentum discrepancy is high enough, draft alone isn't powerful enough to stick now. Old style caused its own problems as noted. I can't really say new style is worse - just different. But, Zwift have said they are working on supertuck behavior as part of new pack dynamics so . . . maybe one porridge was too hot, one porridge was too cold, and the next porridge will be just right??
no worries i dont mind the long comment haha, its a good summary. I do think its a combination of things (and i mentioned at the end of the video it tends to happen more when riders are aggressive on the descent, punching through the pack with a 10.0wkg kick) and doesnt happen as often if a group all just rolls onto the descent at 3.0wkg. I have had a few times though when a heavier rider is on the front in the supertuck (not punching through), and I am left blasting a ton of watts and still getting dropped. it usually ends up being the few of us left behind just have to push harder once it flattens out to regroup.
PD 4.1 is completely broken. As a smaller-than-average female rider, I already have to work harder just to sit in the pack. But now, unless the gradient is -5% or steeper, my 52kg weight causes me to drop out of supertuck, meaning I have to stay at threshold just to keep up on descents… no rest at all. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great training, but it’s terrible for racing and motivation when you know you won’t get even a micro-rest.
You do realise it’s impossible to follow someone on a descent twice your weight, right? Zwift always was and still is beneficial to lightweight riders. My wife weighs 53kg and it amazes me how easily she can follow groups and draft along on Zwift, while IRL she’s absolutely no match for the absolute watts I’m pushing. Between the two of us, the only equaliser is an ascent. That’s basically where you shine!
I recommend trying out TrainingPeaks Virtual - it’s cheaper than Zwift and you’ll find it is much more fair to you. The physics account for your height so you’ll have better aerodynamics than bigger riders
that's got to be frustrating, especially knowing it probably effects your performance on sprints/climbs anything after the downhill since you probably have a lot more fatigue in the legs then. A few of the female riders on my team have said something similar, especially when riding in mixed fields.
@@BartSchrijversthat’s not my experience. I’m 55kg and on flats I need to push way more watts to stay in the pack. I feel something has changed recently. On flat is fast race series I average 3.5W/Kg to get a top 10 while heavier riders are barely at 3.0W/Kg. I’m make sure not to waste watts and draft efficiently but with the new update I just need to push lots more watts.
Fascinating video. I’m one who will frequently put in absolutely viscous attacks on a downhill specifically so I can get that breakaway speed advantage over the pack. I will frequently gain up to 30 seconds on other riders when descending epic reverse.
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetworkI promise I’m nothing special. It’s a great trick on the undulating reverse epic. I just focus on maximizing time in the draft. Anytime the road takes a small incline I am in full sprint until I crest and get back into supertuck. There’s enough supertuck time I can still get sufficient rest before it flattens out.
the epic descent is so unique. Its one of the few descents that have almost mini climbs on it. Sounds like you are doing it, but you can definitely gain quite a bit of time by really pushing up and over those short little hills.
The one that gets me is cresting a hill and giving it some extra beans to get a good launch into the downhill, only to see my speed beginning to drop when I start coasting. I can be on a -3% decline and watching my speed drop when it should, at the very least, stay steady, Yes, I weigh 74kg, but still, a downhill is a downhill. I shouldn't be losing speed.
IDK about your light rider comment. Im 79kg and i noticed i was getting dropped on the downhill in the pack so i have had to put out min 160watts to stay with the pack. If i soft pedal i get dropped. When i go back to zwift power and look to see the weights of the guys im with im one of the heavier ones which makes zero sense a heavy rider needs to put in more effort to stay with lighter riders. Something wonky in there. Def sucks because the heavier rider has to put out a ton more watts to keep up going on the uphill lol.
I feel you on the uphill part. Im not sure what cat you are but id imagine your putting out quite high pure watts to stay in the pack on uphills. glad to hear your input even if you disagree on the lighter rider comment. Idk one thing i learned after making videos and reading comments is everyone on both sides of the debate say they are the disadvantaged group 😂
Welcome to the real world. 😅 Hence why Paris Roubaix winners are no lightweights. I’m 1m94 and 95kg, and boy how different our perspectives can be. On every casual group ride, the lighter riders easily exceed the advertised pacing when going uphill, stretching or breaking a group apart. Never underestimate your powers going uphill. But clearly you need to know your place when a bigger guy puts his watts down, especially on a descent. Zwift always was and still is too beneficial to lightweight riders… my wife weighs 53kg and it amazes me how easily she can follow groups and draft along, while IRL she’s very lovely but absolutely no match to the absolute watts I’m pushing. The only equaliser being an ascent.
I’d definitely encourage you to try out TrainingPeaks Virtual - you’ll find the real world physics will suite you much better (and more realistically)! ☺️
@@BartSchrijvers I just ran a race series, and there are so many things that surprise me. I know that I would beat 80% of those who beat me in Zwift.. at least the series I just ran with only Danish riders.. as I have never lost to them in real life races before. The light ladies have been with me the whole way and had it easy if there have been slightly longer hills. Normally they would never be there in that position. Ok. there are some things about that race series that mean I probably won't run it again as there weren't enough "rules" in relation to dual recording etc. The different things have surprised and somewhat frustrated me a lot during and after the races.
@@salvatormund1 Glad you point this out as well, thanks! I don't take racing on Zwift too seriously anyways (rather use it as a training tool)(not even mentioning how people like to cheat and fool themselves, but that's another discussion). When both ends of the (weight) spectrum meet each other on Zwift, the outcome shows how unrealistic the physics still are. My wife can comfortably do 150 watts (that's 3.5w/kg), she's impressive on Zwift. :) But I know what happens when I push 3.5w/kg IRL, she can't hold my wheel. Where I live, any race between us is over within a hartbeat. The only exception being on a steep incline of course. I believe the Zwift Racing Score is a first step into correcting the offset, and it will get better over time.
I've noticed issues with Pace Partners the last month. if you manage to fall to the back, you'll get dropped immediately. Even when doubling your power output. If you get on the front, it's feels like you have an ebike. I've gotten to the front several times and it feels like I'm being pushed while doing no effort.
That might actually be due to zwift testing a new pack dynamics 5. I know they have been testing it in certain free worlds and have heard others say the drafting feels very odd
No need to to compare it to real life, its a game after all and sometimes you need some skill and game understanding to be good at. Who don't understand that probably hates it.
Great video - I find for myself at 70 KG I can hang on the climb but get blown away on the downhill - I have to put in as much effort going down in a race as I do going up, And you are right in the real world I can hang even with heaver riders with just a little effort - not Zwift. It makes me look for either flat rides, or ones that end at the top of the climb
similar to my experience and im only 2kg heavier! I do a lot of race series that the organizer picks the route so unfortunately i find i just have to make the best of the route given to me haha
Even on the flat, if someone nukes it from the back of a group and opens a gap with a big speed differential it takes an equally big effort or a group working well together to get back in their draft. Supertuck does allow rest by providing similar power to pedalling ± 3W/kg whereas someone attacking on the flat has to keep some level of effort, but it's not the root cause - inertia is. A good IRL example would be Carlos Rodriguez' win on stage 14 of the 2023 TDF
I actually noticed this for the first time yesterday. We were coming down from Epic KOM, I thought I can finally get into supertuck, but nothing happened. Luckily, I'm a bit heavier so I still didn't have to pedal and I stayed with the group. I did notice I have to pedal hard on shorter descents though, not sure what's going on there.
I have had a few times something similar happened. It seems like maybe a glitch in the game, i meet all the criteria to enter supertuck and for some reason my avatar doesnt enter it. Ive had luck in the past pedaling at a couple hundred watts for 5 seconds and stopping again to enter though
True! to me it falls under the good enough. There are certain things (such as this 😂) i would love for them to improve, but i still love the fact that i can hop on the bike sign up for a race and be pushed by other riders on any given day.
I've thought about that a lot. In the past I've always had an advantage downhill because I'm a bit fat, but now I'm being overtaken even though I'm in super tuck and people are driving away from me. It's surprised me, because I can't seem to keep up with the person overtaking. It makes no sense to me, because there should be an advantage for the light ones going up, and an advantage for the heavier ones going down. Now there's absolutely no advantage to being a heavy one who loves to drive up.. e.g. box hill. At least that's how it's been in the past. Not even down the Alp. Makes no sense.
I obviously don't have access to the underlying PD4 engine, but i would recommend before entering the super tuck try really pushing to pick up some speed, or if you can start in the draft, push through then enter the super tuck. I find that once you create that delta/separation in speed from the pack behind you its really hard for them to catch back up. It might just be a small tweak that gets you an extra advantage. Also box hill is a bit of a funky descent, its not quite steep enough for supertuck to be fastest. I find its often faster pushing on the 4%-5% bits and resuming supertuck at like 6%.
Is it possible that they have tried to make downhills better for heavy riders? Otherwise the game is almost impossible for anyone with more weight. I don't race (i do group rides) so i don't care about this too much. But it is nice to have a game where everyone has an advantage over some kind of terrain.
in my opinion i would guess Zwift isn't actively trying to make downhills better for heavy riders. My guess is it was a consequence of trying to fix the pack roll through issue making breakaways impossible and it may have just got overlooked. idk i feel like pack dynamics is an area so easy to recreate IRL conditions in a "good" way but almost impossible to get "perfect". I kind of think of it like self driving cars, lots of companies could develop software to drive like humans 90% of the time, but couldn't get that last 10% right. i've heard so many say "oh this technology is 2-3 years away" but you ask 2 years later and its "oh its 2-3 more years away again". I kind of feel like perfecting indoor pack dynamics is similar in that its always 2 years away from being perfect.
I’m 55kg and on flats I need to push way more watts to stay in the pack. I feel something has changed recently. On flat is fast race series I average 3.5W/Kg to get a top 10 while heavier riders are barely at 3.0W/Kg. I’m make sure not to waste watts and draft efficiently but with the new update I just need to push lots more watts.
You will always have some delta to heavier riders on the flat (I have a bit on this in my watts vs wkg video), but 3.0 to 3.5 does seem a bit wide, especially if you are staying in the draft most of the time. When did you notice the change? I actually had the idea for this video because I felt around Sept/Oct there was a slight tweak in PD making the issue I describe in this video worse. I did a bunch of digging and wasn't able to find anything saying PD changed though, but I still feel there has been some slight tweak over the past few months.
If you can manage the time and day, I highly encourage trying out TPV’s Tour Down Under (Monday Mixer) race on Mondays at 11am PST 🙌🏻 Best race on the TrainingPeaks Virtual platform
Downhills for lighter riders absolutely suck. The best descender in the world is likely Tom Pidcock, who weighs under 60kg during the Tours. How much time does he lose on downhills? Umm none. He gains it because of his technique, despite weighing nothing, and putting in a dig here or there. I get almost no recovery on any downhill in Zwift and feel like I have to work just as hard going down as going up so that I don’t get dropped on a descent. The mechanics of it are certainly broken.
@@zwiftcyclingbrian c’mon, just try this IRL, instead of looking at the one exception seen in the Tour. Tom used his skill, took more risks, has some big cohones and a large gearing, putting down the watts “here and there” but definitely is doing that and keeping as much as momentum as possible, taking corners like a professional racing car driver. And by doing all that, he didn’t loose time… that’s proof Zwift is broken? If Gana would power down a straight downhill, his pants would fly off! It’s difficult for Zwift to make an equation of risk taking, amount of sharp corners, corner ability, braking, acceleration out of corners,… to be realistic, but given all the benefits you have uphill, you’re being a bit greedy (IMHO) to want equality on the downhills, that’s not how the physics works. No?
I agree he’s the exception and don’t want Zwift to code for the exceptions. IRL I can remember many times overtaking people going uphill and being overtaken by people going uphill. I can recall very few times I was ever dropped going downhill or wasn’t able to mostly rest on a descent, put some power in where needed to stay on. There are exactly zero instances of cresting a climb with people and then gassing out on downhills. That contrasts significantly with the Zwift experience.
@@zwiftcyclingbrian I tend to avoid Zwift races and use it as a training tool in winter, but I do have some experience with group rides turning into races (haha). What often happens is lighter riders not going all out on a short to mid lengths climbs while I am pushing 500w just to keep up. Mad as hell, I continue to push 500w going into the descent, and that can create a gap indeed (as it should). I will gladly demonstrate that IRL as well, but admittedly, the difficulty for Zwift is that a straight downhill or one with many sharp corners does make a difference IRL. Many braking zones and sharp corners, being heavier isn’t really beneficial. However on a longer straight bit, gravity can do its thing. It’s difficult to determine how hard someone is actually going for it IRL, they could be holding back for numerous reasons, being on the safe side of things or not knowing the descent, or is recovering from the ascent, so many factors. Zwift sure does takeaway the reality of having to go around a corner and I guess it will always be compromised. Not to mention how Zwift play has opened up another can of worms.
@T_Mo271 3 things. 1st the the host of the video mentioned he now lives in Ireland, and it's a cycling video. So on-topic. 2nd, if you had watched the video or read any of the comments below, you would see a conversation that is on-topic. 3rd, I hope whatever you're going through right now gets better for you. Good luck to you in the future.
woops sorry for any confusion @timbullman1991 and @T_mo271 . @timbullman1991 and i were chatting in a comments thread below and i mentioned i recently moved to a place i can bike more IRL. I meant it as "in real life". Since its a cycling channel I was trying to distinguish between indoor (or in game biking) and outdoor biking, but I see "IRL" could also read as Ireland in a sentence that i'm saying i recently moved.
In real life people get dropped on descents in races all the time. So while I think this might be more of an issue with the d and c categories where weight differentials are greatest I don't think its 'broken'
Yeah I have been dropped so many times on decent even if I crest over like 4 seconds before I will get overtaken by people who are like 30kg more than me
I would agree people get dropped in real life races. However, ive noticed it tends to be due to poor descending skills such as taking bad lines, scrubbing to much speed into corners and having to nuke it out of them. Idk i haven't seen many IRL riders dropped on a dead straightaway downhill or groups fracturing into several small groups of 2 or 3. I think Zwift could certainly make a tweak to downhills, as ive had multiple times being out of my saddle sprinting and having no chance to hang onto the wheel in front of me. Idk maybe Zwift doesnt have to make it exactly like IRL, but just a small tweak would be nice. I mentioned at the end of the video, but some races ive noticed it to not be a huge problem, but others (especially those with very aggressive attacks on the downhill) i have seen downhills completely ruin races (another commentor mentioned this to, its usually due to the combination of supertuck and a big attack creating a speed delta). Probably not a big deal all the time, but the example i showed at the end was from a 3 week grand tour (FRR) and i think the rider ended up losing time which was probably frustrating considering he was sprinting part of the downhill while some of us were just casually sitting on the bike.
just curious if it feels like you have almost no chance? it sounds like you are a lighter rider, but ive had the experience a few time where it feels like no matter how hard i push there is no chance to hold onto certain riders wheels.
I'm not sure this is a problem that needs fixing. There is a work-around. Just let the lead rider go, and let the pack pull them back after the descent flattens.
For races entering super tuck isn't something you "actively" control (not like activating a power up by pushing a button). you will enter it or not based on a set of criteria determined by the Zwift game: 1.) Speed greater than 57kph (or ~36mph) 2.) The road gradient must be -3% or greater 3.) watts must be below 11 (essentially not pedaling) 4.) Not be in the draft (Either first rider, or pulled off to the side if steering is enabled)
Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but indeed something feels very off in the physics of Zwift, not just descents btw. A few weeks ago I did a race on the Pretzel and after overtaking many people on Epic/radio tower (on tron bikes like me) on the downhill they overtoke me and no amount of power made me go any faster. I also really hate the lack of momentum, where in spite of going 50+km/h the trainer suddenly hits max resistance the second the slope goes up and vice versa when cresting And I don’t understand why I often have such difficulties keeping up with a group in spite of my w/kg being equal and often much higher than the others (on reddit this is.a recurring question, so it's not just me)
Do you mind me asking your weight? my guess would be on the lighter side if your crushing the radio tower but losing time going down it. Also your last sentence, you might be pushing less raw watts but still be at the same wkg if your lighter. if its flat road you may have to push 0.2-0.3 wkg more than a heavier rider. Also ill have to double check the numbers, but PD 4.1 makes you push more (i want to say like 50w, but they may have reduced this) watts to overtake someone. essentially you could be doing 250 or 300 watts and still be sitting on the same wheel. if you are constantly on the high side of this it will make your ride feel a lot harder.
zwift uses their own engine programmed by one guy. It's not based on a proper game engine like Unity (training peaks virtual) or Unreal Engine (MyWhoosh?). So the problem is there is no physics engine like you would get included on a real video game platform. Zwift tries to overcome this by manipulating your riders in game speed (pack dynamics) but your pedaling resistance doesn't get easier and makes things feel unrealistic in the draft
Having their own engine doesnt prevent them from having a better model. Having a multimillion budget and spending it all in mvdp commercials instead of some engineering is the problem.
In real life if a cyclists is doing 60kmh and super tucking downhill. If the rest of the group behind him all then super tuck. If that happened in real life, let's say 20 cyclists super tucking all behind each other, well that would soon look like a blood bath. No one been able to see above the other cyclists back side. So yes your right for every position you are back your avatars head rises. So if your 6th you're avatar should be 6 inches higher than the 1st cyclists.
Its funny, I don't ride outdoors all that much any more (although this year i will again because i moved to a place that i can ride more IRL), but i often find myself having to scrub speed on downhills IRL. Sometimes I do so by taking a more upright position, or depending on the group size, just pull out into the wind an inch or so.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I'm new to zwift. I've decided to hang up the bike for a while. Crashed 3 months ago cresting a hilll. Reached for my bottle and realised I was going to fast so I pulled my brake and lost control. I was a narrow Irish country road the type with grass in the middle.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork but anyway I like your opinion of maybe having the cyclist behind the super tuck cyclist, have them in the drops. Different levels the further you are back.
sorry to hear about the crash. I know they can be disheartening. I've had one really bad one, some drunk driver gunned it in front of me and slammed on his breaks. I lost a tooth and broke a thumb and it took me a while to get confidence back riding outdoors
I dont have an issue with a heavier rider going faster. Yes, I think you should go faster for the same effort as a 50kg rider. My issue is with certain situations feeling impossible to hang on. One rider i commonly ride with is 90kg and i am 72kg. We usually stick together going uphill, but i have had multiple times he is doing nothing and pulling away while im out of my saddle sprinting at 600-700 watts. I'm not advocating for speeds to be the same, more so maybe the 90kg rider from my example might be doing 150 watts, while im doing 300 watts to hang on. In this scenario the heavier rider still gets an easier ride downhill, and can still attack to try and drop me. And i am still having to work, but it not being impossible to hang on. Idk a bit long response, but I have this problem as an A even though pushing 600 watts is doable for me, I would imagine some D or C cats feel its even more impossible.
not a bad solution, i didnt think of this at all (but its fairly obvious haha). It would fix the issue. Or Zwift could even build on this and say you can only super tuck if you are a solo rider in a breakaway. idk seems like it would encourage more breakways then.
Sorry in advance for the War & Peace length youtube comment but . . .
Imho, it's partially a supertuck issue but a bit more nuanced and complicated than that. It's about higher entry speed + supertuck. If everyone enters at same speed, supertuck itself is not enough to break the stickiness of the draft in my experience. But, if someone is trying to form a gap on the descent, then entering a descent at higher speed than the field (i.e. sprinting through them right at the apex) can be devastating. Two recent examples:
1) I did PRL Full with a group at the end of December and stayed with the same group working together for 4+ hours - which means I did the same 2-minute-ish descent 11 times with a group. Not only could I stop pedaling on the downhill, I could literally get off the bike for 2 minutes and stretch (PRL Full is a long ride 😅) and still be with the pack at the bottom of the descent. There were about 8 of us and it did not matter who had supertuck or where we sat in the pack - we all stayed bunched. I can't tell you our relative weights - but I think what is important here is supertuck by itself doesn't cause gaps.
2) Zwift World Series Power to the Tower is the next example. This was a different sort of situation where I was trying to pickup time on the field with descents. Here, I very specifically hit into the descents very hard to break wheels and not just a little bit. I aggressively hit 1,200+W sprints at the apex and then into supertuck. There was one rider 8 seconds ahead of me in supertuck and I absolutely flew past him on the descent. I also took 30 seconds out of the 5 or 6 people that entered the descent with me but at much slower speed. My descent speed was topping out at 90+ kph while they were in the low 70 kph range).
In that same ride, I took 50 seconds out of a rider on Epic descent because there are multiple kickers where you can take entry speed over the apex into supertuck. The guy I took 50 seconds out of was also in supertuck the whole descent as well as we both had gapped the field. But . . . he didn't hit an initial sprint as hard to gain entry speed and he also didn't do enough to put in power on the kickers of that descent to maintain / increase descent speed.
Long and short, it's more about the speed you take into supertuck than supertuck itself from what I've seen. Weight absolutely plays a part as well in terms of the back end physics calculation being done but I think, in order of importance, it's 1) high entry speed + 2) supertuck +3) extra momentum from weight. Any favorable combination of those three can break the stickiness of the draft. And because draft power fades with distance, I think that's where you were seeing that steering out of a weak draft bonus at distance to get into supertuck was more powerful. At enough distance, supertuck bonus becomes stronger than weak draft bonus.
To sum up, drafting directly behind supertuck is fine if you all enter at the same speed. But, if the supertuck rider had higher entry speed (and this will often be the case - that's why they are out front) they can break the stickiness of draft. Old style, with everyone in supertuck, the riders behind would get supertuck bonus + draft bonus I believe - which would make it much harder for the front rider to pull away - front rider had less bonus than the field.
But, that prior double-bonus behavior for the riders behind the front is what caused that silly group churn + group descent speed. New style is front rider gets supertuck bonus and everyone else gets draft bonus only - which can work fine and keep a group together if entry speed / weight / momentum are close enough. But, if entry speed and momentum discrepancy is high enough, draft alone isn't powerful enough to stick now.
Old style caused its own problems as noted. I can't really say new style is worse - just different. But, Zwift have said they are working on supertuck behavior as part of new pack dynamics so . . . maybe one porridge was too hot, one porridge was too cold, and the next porridge will be just right??
no worries i dont mind the long comment haha, its a good summary.
I do think its a combination of things (and i mentioned at the end of the video it tends to happen more when riders are aggressive on the descent, punching through the pack with a 10.0wkg kick) and doesnt happen as often if a group all just rolls onto the descent at 3.0wkg.
I have had a few times though when a heavier rider is on the front in the supertuck (not punching through), and I am left blasting a ton of watts and still getting dropped. it usually ends up being the few of us left behind just have to push harder once it flattens out to regroup.
PD 4.1 is completely broken. As a smaller-than-average female rider, I already have to work harder just to sit in the pack. But now, unless the gradient is -5% or steeper, my 52kg weight causes me to drop out of supertuck, meaning I have to stay at threshold just to keep up on descents… no rest at all. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great training, but it’s terrible for racing and motivation when you know you won’t get even a micro-rest.
Yep I feel that I’m 58kg
You do realise it’s impossible to follow someone on a descent twice your weight, right? Zwift always was and still is beneficial to lightweight riders. My wife weighs 53kg and it amazes me how easily she can follow groups and draft along on Zwift, while IRL she’s absolutely no match for the absolute watts I’m pushing. Between the two of us, the only equaliser is an ascent. That’s basically where you shine!
I recommend trying out TrainingPeaks Virtual - it’s cheaper than Zwift and you’ll find it is much more fair to you. The physics account for your height so you’ll have better aerodynamics than bigger riders
that's got to be frustrating, especially knowing it probably effects your performance on sprints/climbs anything after the downhill since you probably have a lot more fatigue in the legs then.
A few of the female riders on my team have said something similar, especially when riding in mixed fields.
@@BartSchrijversthat’s not my experience. I’m 55kg and on flats I need to push way more watts to stay in the pack. I feel something has changed recently. On flat is fast race series I average 3.5W/Kg to get a top 10 while heavier riders are barely at 3.0W/Kg. I’m make sure not to waste watts and draft efficiently but with the new update I just need to push lots more watts.
Fascinating video. I’m one who will frequently put in absolutely viscous attacks on a downhill specifically so I can get that breakaway speed advantage over the pack. I will frequently gain up to 30 seconds on other riders when descending epic reverse.
impressive! i dont know if ive ever put 30 seconds on someone descending! if your attacking hard though it certainly is doable.
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetworkI promise I’m nothing special. It’s a great trick on the undulating reverse epic. I just focus on maximizing time in the draft. Anytime the road takes a small incline I am in full sprint until I crest and get back into supertuck. There’s enough supertuck time I can still get sufficient rest before it flattens out.
the epic descent is so unique. Its one of the few descents that have almost mini climbs on it. Sounds like you are doing it, but you can definitely gain quite a bit of time by really pushing up and over those short little hills.
@ if you make a video about this technique please call it the MacAttack. 😂😂😂
The one that gets me is cresting a hill and giving it some extra beans to get a good launch into the downhill, only to see my speed beginning to drop when I start coasting. I can be on a -3% decline and watching my speed drop when it should, at the very least, stay steady, Yes, I weigh 74kg, but still, a downhill is a downhill. I shouldn't be losing speed.
Best of luck with your channel. I'm looking forward to future content.
IDK about your light rider comment. Im 79kg and i noticed i was getting dropped on the downhill in the pack so i have had to put out min 160watts to stay with the pack. If i soft pedal i get dropped. When i go back to zwift power and look to see the weights of the guys im with im one of the heavier ones which makes zero sense a heavy rider needs to put in more effort to stay with lighter riders. Something wonky in there. Def sucks because the heavier rider has to put out a ton more watts to keep up going on the uphill lol.
I feel you on the uphill part. Im not sure what cat you are but id imagine your putting out quite high pure watts to stay in the pack on uphills.
glad to hear your input even if you disagree on the lighter rider comment. Idk one thing i learned after making videos and reading comments is everyone on both sides of the debate say they are the disadvantaged group 😂
My 60kg butt got dropped in today's ZRL jungle descent. When the steamrollers started flying, I couldn't even sprint to hang on.
Welcome to the real world. 😅 Hence why Paris Roubaix winners are no lightweights. I’m 1m94 and 95kg, and boy how different our perspectives can be. On every casual group ride, the lighter riders easily exceed the advertised pacing when going uphill, stretching or breaking a group apart. Never underestimate your powers going uphill. But clearly you need to know your place when a bigger guy puts his watts down, especially on a descent. Zwift always was and still is too beneficial to lightweight riders… my wife weighs 53kg and it amazes me how easily she can follow groups and draft along, while IRL she’s very lovely but absolutely no match to the absolute watts I’m pushing. The only equaliser being an ascent.
I’d definitely encourage you to try out TrainingPeaks Virtual - you’ll find the real world physics will suite you much better (and more realistically)! ☺️
@@BartSchrijvers I just ran a race series, and there are so many things that surprise me. I know that I would beat 80% of those who beat me in Zwift.. at least the series I just ran with only Danish riders.. as I have never lost to them in real life races before. The light ladies have been with me the whole way and had it easy if there have been slightly longer hills. Normally they would never be there in that position. Ok. there are some things about that race series that mean I probably won't run it again as there weren't enough "rules" in relation to dual recording etc. The different things have surprised and somewhat frustrated me a lot during and after the races.
@@salvatormund1 Glad you point this out as well, thanks! I don't take racing on Zwift too seriously anyways (rather use it as a training tool)(not even mentioning how people like to cheat and fool themselves, but that's another discussion). When both ends of the (weight) spectrum meet each other on Zwift, the outcome shows how unrealistic the physics still are. My wife can comfortably do 150 watts (that's 3.5w/kg), she's impressive on Zwift. :) But I know what happens when I push 3.5w/kg IRL, she can't hold my wheel. Where I live, any race between us is over within a hartbeat. The only exception being on a steep incline of course. I believe the Zwift Racing Score is a first step into correcting the offset, and it will get better over time.
I've noticed issues with Pace Partners the last month. if you manage to fall to the back, you'll get dropped immediately. Even when doubling your power output. If you get on the front, it's feels like you have an ebike. I've gotten to the front several times and it feels like I'm being pushed while doing no effort.
That might actually be due to zwift testing a new pack dynamics 5. I know they have been testing it in certain free worlds and have heard others say the drafting feels very odd
I find going down hill one of the hardest bits in a zwift race
No need to to compare it to real life, its a game after all and sometimes you need some skill and game understanding to be good at. Who don't understand that probably hates it.
Nice video mate. Definitely learnt this the hard way a couple of times before i tried to become an expert on beating it 🤣
thanks! 😂you are probably strong enough to get dropped on the downhill and Z3 back into the group after on the flat
Great video - I find for myself at 70 KG I can hang on the climb but get blown away on the downhill - I have to put in as much effort going down in a race as I do going up, And you are right in the real world I can hang even with heaver riders with just a little effort - not Zwift. It makes me look for either flat rides, or ones that end at the top of the climb
similar to my experience and im only 2kg heavier! I do a lot of race series that the organizer picks the route so unfortunately i find i just have to make the best of the route given to me haha
Even on the flat, if someone nukes it from the back of a group and opens a gap with a big speed differential it takes an equally big effort or a group working well together to get back in their draft.
Supertuck does allow rest by providing similar power to pedalling ± 3W/kg whereas someone attacking on the flat has to keep some level of effort, but it's not the root cause - inertia is.
A good IRL example would be Carlos Rodriguez' win on stage 14 of the 2023 TDF
I actually noticed this for the first time yesterday. We were coming down from Epic KOM, I thought I can finally get into supertuck, but nothing happened.
Luckily, I'm a bit heavier so I still didn't have to pedal and I stayed with the group. I did notice I have to pedal hard on shorter descents though, not sure what's going on there.
I have had a few times something similar happened. It seems like maybe a glitch in the game, i meet all the criteria to enter supertuck and for some reason my avatar doesnt enter it. Ive had luck in the past pedaling at a couple hundred watts for 5 seconds and stopping again to enter though
I mean, further proof that zwift racing isn't really bike racing.
True. It's it's own thing at this point I guess, not a roadie sim. But it's the same for everyone I suppose
True! to me it falls under the good enough. There are certain things (such as this 😂) i would love for them to improve, but i still love the fact that i can hop on the bike sign up for a race and be pushed by other riders on any given day.
I've thought about that a lot. In the past I've always had an advantage downhill because I'm a bit fat, but now I'm being overtaken even though I'm in super tuck and people are driving away from me. It's surprised me, because I can't seem to keep up with the person overtaking. It makes no sense to me, because there should be an advantage for the light ones going up, and an advantage for the heavier ones going down. Now there's absolutely no advantage to being a heavy one who loves to drive up.. e.g. box hill. At least that's how it's been in the past. Not even down the Alp. Makes no sense.
I obviously don't have access to the underlying PD4 engine, but i would recommend before entering the super tuck try really pushing to pick up some speed, or if you can start in the draft, push through then enter the super tuck.
I find that once you create that delta/separation in speed from the pack behind you its really hard for them to catch back up. It might just be a small tweak that gets you an extra advantage.
Also box hill is a bit of a funky descent, its not quite steep enough for supertuck to be fastest. I find its often faster pushing on the 4%-5% bits and resuming supertuck at like 6%.
Is it possible that they have tried to make downhills better for heavy riders? Otherwise the game is almost impossible for anyone with more weight. I don't race (i do group rides) so i don't care about this too much. But it is nice to have a game where everyone has an advantage over some kind of terrain.
in my opinion i would guess Zwift isn't actively trying to make downhills better for heavy riders. My guess is it was a consequence of trying to fix the pack roll through issue making breakaways impossible and it may have just got overlooked.
idk i feel like pack dynamics is an area so easy to recreate IRL conditions in a "good" way but almost impossible to get "perfect". I kind of think of it like self driving cars, lots of companies could develop software to drive like humans 90% of the time, but couldn't get that last 10% right. i've heard so many say "oh this technology is 2-3 years away" but you ask 2 years later and its "oh its 2-3 more years away again". I kind of feel like perfecting indoor pack dynamics is similar in that its always 2 years away from being perfect.
I’m 55kg and on flats I need to push way more watts to stay in the pack. I feel something has changed recently. On flat is fast race series I average 3.5W/Kg to get a top 10 while heavier riders are barely at 3.0W/Kg. I’m make sure not to waste watts and draft efficiently but with the new update I just need to push lots more watts.
You will always have some delta to heavier riders on the flat (I have a bit on this in my watts vs wkg video), but 3.0 to 3.5 does seem a bit wide, especially if you are staying in the draft most of the time.
When did you notice the change? I actually had the idea for this video because I felt around Sept/Oct there was a slight tweak in PD making the issue I describe in this video worse. I did a bunch of digging and wasn't able to find anything saying PD changed though, but I still feel there has been some slight tweak over the past few months.
If you can manage the time and day, I highly encourage trying out TPV’s Tour Down Under (Monday Mixer) race on Mondays at 11am PST 🙌🏻
Best race on the TrainingPeaks Virtual platform
Off-topic.
Downhills for lighter riders absolutely suck. The best descender in the world is likely Tom Pidcock, who weighs under 60kg during the Tours. How much time does he lose on downhills? Umm none. He gains it because of his technique, despite weighing nothing, and putting in a dig here or there. I get almost no recovery on any downhill in Zwift and feel like I have to work just as hard going down as going up so that I don’t get dropped on a descent. The mechanics of it are certainly broken.
@@zwiftcyclingbrian c’mon, just try this IRL, instead of looking at the one exception seen in the Tour. Tom used his skill, took more risks, has some big cohones and a large gearing, putting down the watts “here and there” but definitely is doing that and keeping as much as momentum as possible, taking corners like a professional racing car driver. And by doing all that, he didn’t loose time… that’s proof Zwift is broken? If Gana would power down a straight downhill, his pants would fly off! It’s difficult for Zwift to make an equation of risk taking, amount of sharp corners, corner ability, braking, acceleration out of corners,… to be realistic, but given all the benefits you have uphill, you’re being a bit greedy (IMHO) to want equality on the downhills, that’s not how the physics works. No?
I agree he’s the exception and don’t want Zwift to code for the exceptions. IRL I can remember many times overtaking people going uphill and being overtaken by people going uphill. I can recall very few times I was ever dropped going downhill or wasn’t able to mostly rest on a descent, put some power in where needed to stay on. There are exactly zero instances of cresting a climb with people and then gassing out on downhills. That contrasts significantly with the Zwift experience.
@@zwiftcyclingbrian I tend to avoid Zwift races and use it as a training tool in winter, but I do have some experience with group rides turning into races (haha). What often happens is lighter riders not going all out on a short to mid lengths climbs while I am pushing 500w just to keep up. Mad as hell, I continue to push 500w going into the descent, and that can create a gap indeed (as it should). I will gladly demonstrate that IRL as well, but admittedly, the difficulty for Zwift is that a straight downhill or one with many sharp corners does make a difference IRL. Many braking zones and sharp corners, being heavier isn’t really beneficial. However on a longer straight bit, gravity can do its thing. It’s difficult to determine how hard someone is actually going for it IRL, they could be holding back for numerous reasons, being on the safe side of things or not knowing the descent, or is recovering from the ascent, so many factors. Zwift sure does takeaway the reality of having to go around a corner and I guess it will always be compromised. Not to mention how Zwift play has opened up another can of worms.
We do have some nice hills here in Ireland. Great training here. We definitely produced some great cyclists here.
Off-topic.
@T_Mo271 3 things. 1st the the host of the video mentioned he now lives in Ireland, and it's a cycling video. So on-topic. 2nd, if you had watched the video or read any of the comments below, you would see a conversation that is on-topic. 3rd, I hope whatever you're going through right now gets better for you. Good luck to you in the future.
woops sorry for any confusion @timbullman1991 and @T_mo271 . @timbullman1991 and i were chatting in a comments thread below and i mentioned i recently moved to a place i can bike more IRL. I meant it as "in real life". Since its a cycling channel I was trying to distinguish between indoor (or in game biking) and outdoor biking, but I see "IRL" could also read as Ireland in a sentence that i'm saying i recently moved.
In real life people get dropped on descents in races all the time. So while I think this might be more of an issue with the d and c categories where weight differentials are greatest I don't think its 'broken'
Yeah I have been dropped so many times on decent even if I crest over like 4 seconds before I will get overtaken by people who are like 30kg more than me
I would agree people get dropped in real life races. However, ive noticed it tends to be due to poor descending skills such as taking bad lines, scrubbing to much speed into corners and having to nuke it out of them. Idk i haven't seen many IRL riders dropped on a dead straightaway downhill or groups fracturing into several small groups of 2 or 3.
I think Zwift could certainly make a tweak to downhills, as ive had multiple times being out of my saddle sprinting and having no chance to hang onto the wheel in front of me. Idk maybe Zwift doesnt have to make it exactly like IRL, but just a small tweak would be nice.
I mentioned at the end of the video, but some races ive noticed it to not be a huge problem, but others (especially those with very aggressive attacks on the downhill) i have seen downhills completely ruin races (another commentor mentioned this to, its usually due to the combination of supertuck and a big attack creating a speed delta). Probably not a big deal all the time, but the example i showed at the end was from a 3 week grand tour (FRR) and i think the rider ended up losing time which was probably frustrating considering he was sprinting part of the downhill while some of us were just casually sitting on the bike.
just curious if it feels like you have almost no chance? it sounds like you are a lighter rider, but ive had the experience a few time where it feels like no matter how hard i push there is no chance to hold onto certain riders wheels.
I'm not sure this is a problem that needs fixing. There is a work-around. Just let the lead rider go, and let the pack pull them back after the descent flattens.
How do you enter super tuck in Zwift?
watch this video
For races entering super tuck isn't something you "actively" control (not like activating a power up by pushing a button). you will enter it or not based on a set of criteria determined by the Zwift game:
1.) Speed greater than 57kph (or ~36mph)
2.) The road gradient must be -3% or greater
3.) watts must be below 11 (essentially not pedaling)
4.) Not be in the draft (Either first rider, or pulled off to the side if steering is enabled)
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetworkThank you. Commented after watching part way through. You said in video shortly after.
no worries, 😂, i do that all the time when watching videos too!
I noticed the super tuck not working in packs during the Chasing Red race series.
Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but indeed something feels very off in the physics of Zwift, not just descents btw.
A few weeks ago I did a race on the Pretzel and after overtaking many people on Epic/radio tower (on tron bikes like me) on the downhill they overtoke me and no amount of power made me go any faster.
I also really hate the lack of momentum, where in spite of going 50+km/h the trainer suddenly hits max resistance the second the slope goes up and vice versa when cresting
And I don’t understand why I often have such difficulties keeping up with a group in spite of my w/kg being equal and often much higher than the others (on reddit this is.a recurring question, so it's not just me)
Do you mind me asking your weight? my guess would be on the lighter side if your crushing the radio tower but losing time going down it.
Also your last sentence, you might be pushing less raw watts but still be at the same wkg if your lighter. if its flat road you may have to push 0.2-0.3 wkg more than a heavier rider. Also ill have to double check the numbers, but PD 4.1 makes you push more (i want to say like 50w, but they may have reduced this) watts to overtake someone. essentially you could be doing 250 or 300 watts and still be sitting on the same wheel. if you are constantly on the high side of this it will make your ride feel a lot harder.
zwift uses their own engine programmed by one guy. It's not based on a proper game engine like Unity (training peaks virtual) or Unreal Engine (MyWhoosh?). So the problem is there is no physics engine like you would get included on a real video game platform. Zwift tries to overcome this by manipulating your riders in game speed (pack dynamics) but your pedaling resistance doesn't get easier and makes things feel unrealistic in the draft
Having their own engine doesnt prevent them from having a better model. Having a multimillion budget and spending it all in mvdp commercials instead of some engineering is the problem.
stay tunned for my next vid! I'm working on one that has a bit about their budget and things such as mvdp commercials.
In real life if a cyclists is doing 60kmh and super tucking downhill. If the rest of the group behind him all then super tuck. If that happened in real life, let's say 20 cyclists super tucking all behind each other, well that would soon look like a blood bath. No one been able to see above the other cyclists back side. So yes your right for every position you are back your avatars head rises. So if your 6th you're avatar should be 6 inches higher than the 1st cyclists.
Its funny, I don't ride outdoors all that much any more (although this year i will again because i moved to a place that i can ride more IRL), but i often find myself having to scrub speed on downhills IRL.
Sometimes I do so by taking a more upright position, or depending on the group size, just pull out into the wind an inch or so.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I'm new to zwift. I've decided to hang up the bike for a while. Crashed 3 months ago cresting a hilll. Reached for my bottle and realised I was going to fast so I pulled my brake and lost control. I was a narrow Irish country road the type with grass in the middle.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork but anyway I like your opinion of maybe having the cyclist behind the super tuck cyclist, have them in the drops. Different levels the further you are back.
sorry to hear about the crash. I know they can be disheartening. I've had one really bad one, some drunk driver gunned it in front of me and slammed on his breaks. I lost a tooth and broke a thumb and it took me a while to get confidence back riding outdoors
So my 100kg shouldnt go faster down than a 50kg rider?
Yeah 4.1 is broken but expecting all hang together isnt realistic either.
I dont have an issue with a heavier rider going faster. Yes, I think you should go faster for the same effort as a 50kg rider.
My issue is with certain situations feeling impossible to hang on. One rider i commonly ride with is 90kg and i am 72kg. We usually stick together going uphill, but i have had multiple times he is doing nothing and pulling away while im out of my saddle sprinting at 600-700 watts.
I'm not advocating for speeds to be the same, more so maybe the 90kg rider from my example might be doing 150 watts, while im doing 300 watts to hang on. In this scenario the heavier rider still gets an easier ride downhill, and can still attack to try and drop me. And i am still having to work, but it not being impossible to hang on.
Idk a bit long response, but I have this problem as an A even though pushing 600 watts is doable for me, I would imagine some D or C cats feel its even more impossible.
The reason to live, has vanished 🙄😂😂
Or easier yet to fix it. Remove supertucks in races and it's fair game.
not a bad solution, i didnt think of this at all (but its fairly obvious haha). It would fix the issue.
Or Zwift could even build on this and say you can only super tuck if you are a solo rider in a breakaway. idk seems like it would encourage more breakways then.
:(
I have been wondering why I can't seem to get in to super tuck the majority of the time.