Excellent, accurate wisdom and perspective. My professional opinion (supplemented by facts): getting promoted to O-5 = success. Anything beyond that is gravy, and/or even more a$$-pain - usually both. So should lightening strike, and you’re selected for O-6 command, what are your odds for GOFO promo.? Single digits, perhaps to the right of the decimal point. Perhaps (just perhaps) this is why so many (nearing a majority) officers fortunate enough to be selected for O-6 promo. are declining O-6 command. Many of us joke about supplemental “leadership pay.” I can envision a point where this notion deserves thoughtful consideration. Otherwise, if current trends continue, or even increase, we’ll continue to lose a significant percentage of the most high-performing officers to private sector “C-suite” positions where they will have the potential to receive “leadership pay” in the form of an annual performance bonus. Just sayin’.
You are 100% correct. That discussion about "leadership pay" gets knocked around pretty regularly. My suspicion is that to really implement it properly, there would have to be a system where a specific position didn't become eligible for "leadership pay" until the primary selectee turned the job down. Some how you have to identify the jobs that really are unattractive to folks or you'll end up paying extra money for roles that people want to take.
This is great advice. Good distinction. I wish I had this advice when I first made O-5. STOMP, STOMP, STOMP!!! For any of you folks who are still in uniform, you had best listen to Chucks wisdom here.
There was an ORSA guy around 2011 who wrote a masters paper on how many top blocks (ACOM/MQ) where needed to get promoted to each rank based on the DOPMA targets and the published distribution of ACOM/MQ issued per year by grade. It was pretty fascinating. IIRC, when the paper came out the "average" selectee to O6 had 70% ACOM/MQ and the bottom ten percent of selectees had between 55-60%. (Just under 40% of all LTC OERs were ACOM/MQ at the time of the study.) Not so much a caveat, but an observation; LTC top block distribution can be kind somewhat wonky as a large number of self select out of competing for O6 or were not competitive/selected for KD positions. This results in a significant population of officers generating COM/MQ reports for their senior raters.
Just an observation. In an active/reserve environment, the senior rater profile is separate for each. In other words, the senior rater picks for active component soldiers is different than their one for reserve components.
@@airborneranger-ret Legally that is 11 SEP 2001 to a date to be determined. I don't remember when the separate reserve and active profiles went away. 2005 or so IIRC
I think @airborneranger-ret makes a good point for future folks. It doesn't matter what the dates were in the past...future Soldiers have to stay tuned to whether or not the AC/RC profiles are being pooled TODAY. Changes to that policy can have effects on distributions at the board where AC and RC folks are not compared against one another.
@ The excellent point is that the over the course of one's career the Army will change the rules. Historically, this happens about once every 15 years.
I served under both OER systems, before and after rater profiles were required. As a AC/RC brigade commander I had two profiles to maintain and being on the other end of the stick of being rated or rating always caused me the most pause. BTW Chuck I'd love to have a beer with you someday and tell you about how I was not selected for SSC and the next month selected for brigade command, it's a doozie!
I knew a captain whose senior rater (a major general) actually wrote, unjustly, "This officer should never be promoted." That captain told me himself after he turned in his resignation papers. That comment certainly did matter. That was a harsh general, though, who did the same thing to a couple of other officers and had the colonels shaking in their boots. His downfall, however, was that particular captain was an Academy grad, and our 4-star tracked Academy grads. He invited that captain to tell him the full story.
I don't know...think about this...what if the MG had written the code words for "This officer should never be promoted".....You know, something like "This officer performs adequately with proper supervision." And the CPT didn't take the hint. The CPT might have wasted years of his life going nowhere. Yes it's harsh, but more than once I've had to sit a happy MAJ down, lay out their OERs, and say "What do you really see the Senior Raters saying about you?"
When my dad (an Army 05 at the time) was up for consideration for 06, he almost didn’t get promoted because he’d worked for a USMC Col who thought every officer was average, even the outstanding ones. It took a long discussion with him to get him to write a letter explaining his “unique” approach to writing OER’s…😂
That's a classic example of how the shift from "average is good" to "average means no promotion" can screw people up. Raters from different communities can be less in tune with the implications of their behavior. When rating O5's, we often openly had the discussion "Do you want this person to be an O6?"
Commenting around the 1min mark : First, asking what I need to do /etc is a waste of time. The E-7 and above has already select who the leading E-6 is. About 95% of the time this will not change unless there is a firing from position. The LPO selection is never discussed, because if the real reasons were given it would probably break all the EO regulations /etc. Second, in order to advance to E-7 the write is the most important part. Plenty of people who have gotten a low score have advanced due to their write up. Each year the Chief's mess sends out two official messages. They both basically break down what the SEL community is looking for called the precepts and convening order. They typically go back through 5 years of evaluations. Your performance mark avage is taken into account, but more importantly is the write up. You could be the most experienced sailor in your field, but if the official message said they want First Class association involvement. That person will get promoted first. This was what the mess was looking for the last two cycles. I verbally challenged that this was technically an eo violation as they should have worded it in a way that VFW Legion /etc involvement should have been acceptable. Anywho... I hope this helps someone.
You make an important point that I'll summarize as "At the top third of the rank pyramid, there are unspoken things you have to know to do." As someone once said, you have to know "how the game is scored". And as you point out, if that scoring system were made too obvious, it would disrupt normal business.
@the_bureaucrat yup; well said. I didn't know this until maybe 15 years in. I try to make it a point now to tell every first cpass navy sailor this, and show them how and where to find it. The whole do unto others thing. I also should be telling people morw about your channel. IMHO You have some of the best information being put out that benefits all branches of service. Thanl you again for your time and effort into posting these. Appreciated
Excellent, accurate wisdom and perspective. My professional opinion (supplemented by facts): getting promoted to O-5 = success. Anything beyond that is gravy, and/or even more a$$-pain - usually both. So should lightening strike, and you’re selected for O-6 command, what are your odds for GOFO promo.? Single digits, perhaps to the right of the decimal point. Perhaps (just perhaps) this is why so many (nearing a majority) officers fortunate enough to be selected for O-6 promo. are declining O-6 command. Many of us joke about supplemental “leadership pay.” I can envision a point where this notion deserves thoughtful consideration. Otherwise, if current trends continue, or even increase, we’ll continue to lose a significant percentage of the most high-performing officers to private sector “C-suite” positions where they will have the potential to receive “leadership pay” in the form of an annual performance bonus. Just sayin’.
You are 100% correct. That discussion about "leadership pay" gets knocked around pretty regularly. My suspicion is that to really implement it properly, there would have to be a system where a specific position didn't become eligible for "leadership pay" until the primary selectee turned the job down. Some how you have to identify the jobs that really are unattractive to folks or you'll end up paying extra money for roles that people want to take.
This is great advice. Good distinction. I wish I had this advice when I first made O-5.
STOMP, STOMP, STOMP!!! For any of you folks who are still in uniform, you had best listen to Chucks wisdom here.
Thanks, Roy.
There was an ORSA guy around 2011 who wrote a masters paper on how many top blocks (ACOM/MQ) where needed to get promoted to each rank based on the DOPMA targets and the published distribution of ACOM/MQ issued per year by grade. It was pretty fascinating. IIRC, when the paper came out the "average" selectee to O6 had 70% ACOM/MQ and the bottom ten percent of selectees had between 55-60%. (Just under 40% of all LTC OERs were ACOM/MQ at the time of the study.)
Not so much a caveat, but an observation; LTC top block distribution can be kind somewhat wonky as a large number of self select out of competing for O6 or were not competitive/selected for KD positions. This results in a significant population of officers generating COM/MQ reports for their senior raters.
That's right...I did a video about that paper: ruclips.net/video/cIiEZgSwgd0/видео.html
Just an observation. In an active/reserve environment, the senior rater profile is separate for each. In other words, the senior rater picks for active component soldiers is different than their one for reserve components.
Is that true again? It was changed to one pool during the GWOT.
@@l4c390 Ok, please define dates for GWOT.
@@airborneranger-ret Legally that is 11 SEP 2001 to a date to be determined.
I don't remember when the separate reserve and active profiles went away. 2005 or so IIRC
I think @airborneranger-ret makes a good point for future folks. It doesn't matter what the dates were in the past...future Soldiers have to stay tuned to whether or not the AC/RC profiles are being pooled TODAY. Changes to that policy can have effects on distributions at the board where AC and RC folks are not compared against one another.
@ The excellent point is that the over the course of one's career the Army will change the rules. Historically, this happens about once every 15 years.
I served under both OER systems, before and after rater profiles were required. As a AC/RC brigade commander I had two profiles to maintain and being on the other end of the stick of being rated or rating always caused me the most pause. BTW Chuck I'd love to have a beer with you someday and tell you about how I was not selected for SSC and the next month selected for brigade command, it's a doozie!
Hit me up...I think you have my email. We might not be able to get a beer, but we could chat.
I knew a captain whose senior rater (a major general) actually wrote, unjustly, "This officer should never be promoted." That captain told me himself after he turned in his resignation papers. That comment certainly did matter. That was a harsh general, though, who did the same thing to a couple of other officers and had the colonels shaking in their boots. His downfall, however, was that particular captain was an Academy grad, and our 4-star tracked Academy grads. He invited that captain to tell him the full story.
I don't know...think about this...what if the MG had written the code words for "This officer should never be promoted".....You know, something like "This officer performs adequately with proper supervision." And the CPT didn't take the hint. The CPT might have wasted years of his life going nowhere. Yes it's harsh, but more than once I've had to sit a happy MAJ down, lay out their OERs, and say "What do you really see the Senior Raters saying about you?"
When my dad (an Army 05 at the time) was up for consideration for 06, he almost didn’t get promoted because he’d worked for a USMC Col who thought every officer was average, even the outstanding ones. It took a long discussion with him to get him to write a letter explaining his “unique” approach to writing OER’s…😂
That's a classic example of how the shift from "average is good" to "average means no promotion" can screw people up. Raters from different communities can be less in tune with the implications of their behavior. When rating O5's, we often openly had the discussion "Do you want this person to be an O6?"
Commenting around the 1min mark : First, asking what I need to do /etc is a waste of time. The E-7 and above has already select who the leading E-6 is. About 95% of the time this will not change unless there is a firing from position. The LPO selection is never discussed, because if the real reasons were given it would probably break all the EO regulations /etc. Second, in order to advance to E-7 the write is the most important part. Plenty of people who have gotten a low score have advanced due to their write up. Each year the Chief's mess sends out two official messages. They both basically break down what the SEL community is looking for called the precepts and convening order. They typically go back through 5 years of evaluations. Your performance mark avage is taken into account, but more importantly is the write up. You could be the most experienced sailor in your field, but if the official message said they want First Class association involvement. That person will get promoted first. This was what the mess was looking for the last two cycles. I verbally challenged that this was technically an eo violation as they should have worded it in a way that VFW Legion /etc involvement should have been acceptable. Anywho... I hope this helps someone.
You make an important point that I'll summarize as "At the top third of the rank pyramid, there are unspoken things you have to know to do." As someone once said, you have to know "how the game is scored". And as you point out, if that scoring system were made too obvious, it would disrupt normal business.
@the_bureaucrat yup; well said. I didn't know this until maybe 15 years in. I try to make it a point now to tell every first cpass navy sailor this, and show them how and where to find it. The whole do unto others thing. I also should be telling people morw about your channel. IMHO You have some of the best information being put out that benefits all branches of service. Thanl you again for your time and effort into posting these. Appreciated