Did not realize I was not subscribed to you...not much of a comment guy, but I made a good choice. Stupid story I know. Either way, this was a Hella funny comment, even better it was another creator space that drove this. Happy new year everyone!
trick i learn some years ago .. use regular Screws with Glue to get stuff done fast, when the glue is dry/hardned, unscrew the screw and replace them with Dowels .. saves the Time for Clamps and you can go on with the work
@@KibitoAkuya As someone who lived in a minivan for six years, sometimes you just don't have room to store lots of clamps. Most of the time my "clamps" were just really large rocks that I found in the desert.
My biggest issue with pocket joints is it always moves as you tighten it up due to the angled screws. You have to remember to clamp everything down first.
I've used pocket screws before in hardwood for a chunky but basic mirror frame. The big thing I'd do differently is glue the butt joint. I didn't use any glue at all, so as careful as I was to align it when screwing, it shifted over time so the joints are no longer flush/in-plane. So if I was to do it again, I'd glue the butt joints and clamp/screw until dry, then finish fully tightening the screw if need be (in the event the pocket screw being fully torqued were causing alignment issues)
@@nickk05281982 yeah I keep thinking about that. Maybe one day I'll get the motivation to do that. It's a big mirror and obviously has glass and weighs a fair bit, so it'd be a little bit of a pain in the ass. But once supported, I should be able to loosen the screws and squirt some glue in there and tighten it back up.
I still clamp things (those 90° are super helpful) but I like to let the screw “pilot hole” for itself by running the screw in reverse before sending it home
Scott, you’re probably one of the few people who can engage me on this topic for a full 13:46 minutes without me getting bored. It’s interesting how we just come to accept “common knowledge” as fact when testing often proves otherwise. I hope that by June of 2024, you’ll see 200k in subscribers 😊
Oh he will go far past 200k I predict 1m subs by one year from today. This guy produces videos like he's been editing since childhood. Thanks woodworking guy, this vid cleared up a lot for me about splitting my pieces. I assemble furniture and install cameras and splitting wood is a problem for me if I can't rejoin it.
A self drilling wood screw more closely resembles a spiral point tap instead of the hand tap you showed. You do not need to reverse to break the chip with this kind of tap as it pushes the chip forward out of the hole (for that reason, they shouldn't be used in a blind hole). However, your point about the screw not removing material is true, although the slot ground in the screw would hold some amount of material.
Another way to stop cracking would be to not go full send and go in a bit, back it out and then go in. The screw itself can clear the hole. Just like in the metal threading example.
Have you tried this? I'm skeptical, but if it works the mechanism would be different. When tapping a hole, the hole is already pre-drilled which reduces the amount of material to be removed. Additionally, taps have large recesses along their entire length to accommodate the removed material and provide a path for the material to potentially be pushed or fall out of the hole. Driving in a screw without pre-drilling is a different story. There's no real path for material removal out of the hole, so whether the wood splits comes down to whether the tensile strength of the lignin bonds beside the screw path are stronger than the compressive strength of the material in and around the screw path. Maybe backing off might help, but I expect that if it does it would be because you're allowing time for the compressed material to yield to the compressive forces before there's enough force there to overcome tensile strength in the lignin and split the wood. If that's true, than simply going slower might achieve the same result, but I still like my clamp idea better.
Yeah, it tends to work in my experience. Full send, it does split. Instead, impact driver it part way, back it out 90%, send it in again. For really long screws, do it twice. The other trick I use is a smaller diameter screw to pin it in place and "predrill", then put the full size screws in. Keeps everything clamped.
I love how the glue without the pocket screw scored the same as the 1-1/4" pocket screw meaning someone without any power tools could achieve a similar result to someone using power tools but not effectively using glue.
@@MeepChangeling It's for the case that you're new to woodworking or just have a one-off project to complete. E.g. I'm building some shelves, I have a drill but I cut all the wood by hand saw(!). Circular saws are almost as cheap as drills but I'm not sure I'll continue to do such projects later on and I definitely don't want another bulky electric tool lying around collecting dust! I'm the same with pocket hole jig and all sorts of other tools, that would save me a lot of time but I just don't know if I'll ever use it again. Yes, at a certain point this becomes counter-productive but you get the concept. You might argue that learning about this stuff is a bigger investment and suggests you will do it again. That's true but my drum kit and guitar that collecting dust from when I was a child say different!
This shows what has been common practice in every shop I've worked in over the years; pocket screw construction is used when no fastener should be seen and there is not time for joinery.
I had a job where I sometimes needed to add blocking on the back side of a cabinet face to have a 2.5" wide mounting position that wouldn't be visible. I didn't have a jig, specialty pocket screws, a pocket drill bit, or time to glue. And, I couldn't screw through the front of the cabinet. The stock wood I had was about 2.5" wide by 3/4" thick pine. So I found the best way to attach the blocking was pocket screws, but I had to figure out how to fashion my own pockets in the field using two different drill bits. It wasn't super pretty at first, but I was kind of proud of how consistent and quick I could make them after a while, and not terrible looking, but still obviously not a jig. The nice thing was because of how I made the pockets myself, I could customize the distance of the pocket from the joint based on the length of screw my company happened to make available to me. And I always pre drilled the cabinet part to receive the screw. I didn't see that as costing a significant amount of time, when compared to the idea of splitting a clients cabinet.
What I love about pocket hole joinery is how forgiving it is. If you have an alignment error when putting two boards together you’re committed with biscuits, dovetail, etc. With pockethole you just remove the screws from the original attempt, drill new pockets about 3/4” from the first attempts and tada… you’re in fresh wood and nobody’s the wiser assuming it’s a joint on the back or bottom of your project. For that reason alone I find using Kreg approach very user friendly and way faster than biscuit/dovetail/dado/domino/etc
@@oldgrunt5569 I don't think he said pocket holes were useless, he merely compared how they stand up to other methods. He openly admits his test weren't exactly lab grade & to be taken with a pinch of salt, I found the information extremely useful. I will continue to use pocket screws when it suits but after watching this I'll probably just screw directly into the grain using longer screws with glue more often when aesthetics are not important. I've always suspected this was just as strong as pocket screws & it's definately nice to have a little more information on the subject.
Scott, Excellent video. I've got a pocket screw jig but don't remember using it. I don't generally use screws for furniture. When I do, I predrill and angle the screw from the opposite side. I've thought that woodworkers tend to over use pocket screws. You show that, many times, they do. But, I think most woodworkers, including me, have latched onto ways of doing things that don't make much sense when you think about it.
The finer threads on the screws helps prevent splitting by having thin, sharp threads that will more or less cut into the wood and not press it outward like a wedge. The very thin, sharp tips cut the fibers in half and split them forward and backwards more then the thicker threads, which create a lot more outward pressure. They're not perfect, but they definitely work. Like it was shown in the video though, they're not necessary if you drill a pilot hole, which is the only way to do it in my opinion. I'm not sure if they're stronger than the normal screws though after a pilot hole is drilled. I would bet that the regular screws are stronger, because they have a larger diameter (is the same side drill bit was used to drill the pilot hole)... so I've always thought the regular screws were the best option with a pilot hole. I'm not sure if it really makes a difference though. (Would love to see that tested, both with the same size pilot holes, but also with a slightly smaller pilot hole to match the shortened diameter of the finer thread screws. Would be cool in general to see if pilot hole size makes a big difference too).
It kills me to think that I was using 2 drill bits to make pocket holes in the late 80’s and could’ve been the inventor of the jig, if only I knew how to make a jig back then 😢. I was a teenager then.
I use pocket screws without glue quite frequently, but usually when fastening face frames to cabinet fronts. That and constructing face frames are usually the only place I use them but find them very useful for those two purposes.
Thanks for highlighting this issue. I have never liked pocket holes and don't use them, except on a few very rare occasions. It has always bothered me when seeing RUclipsrs use pocket holes when there is no reason for it. Why the extra step?
As a researcher I love data, the more the merrier. But I also know that data from unrepresentative tests can unhelpful or even very misleading. So my continuing concern is testing the strength of joinery with a bending test since I can't think of many cases where in a finished piece only one end of a board is secured and it is subjected to repeated high loading. The place where joint strength is a big issue is in drawers where loads are frequently applied to the joints. In the case of the joints in drawers nearly all of the forces generated are parallel to the joint line and so are generating shearing forces in the joint. This assumes that you make the sides of the drawer longer so they overlap the front and back. If the front/back of the drawer overlaps the sides, then the forces in the joint will be perpendicular to the joint and it will experience all pulling forces. So if made with the sides overlapping the front/back, it really shouldn't matter whether you screw through the side and into the end grain of the front/back or use pocket screws that go the opposite direction because the forces in the joint will be perpendicular to the screw and so the joint can only fail if the screw is sheared in half, or the wood fibers fail and the screw is pulled sideways through the wood. Plus the glue line will also be in shear, which should be its strongest direction. Also the highest forces experienced by a drawer won't be the steady slow build up of forces until the drawer opens or you rip the front off the drawer. Rather the highest forces are likely to occur when something in the drawer jams against the frame and the drawer stops in a fraction of second. The whole F=ma thing then says that the high deceleration rate required to stop the drawer and all of its contents over a very short distance and time must be very high and as a result the force on the joints will also be very high. Further this force will go to this high level nearly instantaneously, but it will only last a fraction of a second. This is important because materials behave very differently when forces built to a peak at very different rates. Think about the difference if in when breaking a board in a karate demonstration if instead of a hitting the board with their hand already moving rapidly the person instead placed their hand on the board and then slowly pressed harder and harder until the board broke. When hitting it hard and fast, the board breaks and the person holding it feels a bit of a shock move their arms, but doesn't get pushed back. But if the pressure is applied slowly, the person holding the board will have to lean into the force or they will get pushed back. I think that this is the joint configuration and load profile that should be replicated in any test of joint strength. One way to test the strength of joints in this way is to build a drawer without the back. Then solidly clamp the sides to a very stout test frame so that the sides won't move. Then to apply the load to the joint, an eye bolt is attached to the drawer front (likely good to sandwich the drawer front between two metal strips with the eye bolt through a hole in the middle so that the load is distributed across the drawer front. A rope with just a little bit of stretch to it is attached to the eye bolt on one end and a weight on the other. By allowing the weight to fall a short distance (say a meter to make the calculations easier) a force equal to that required to decelerate the weight to zero velocity over a very short distance will be placed on the drawer front the same sharp rise and short duration profile that a jammed drawer will experience. The heavier the mass, the higher the resulting force. While the applied force is not as easy to obtain as reading the number off of the digital display, the necessary formulas aren't that hard. The velocity of the weight after accelerating at a constant rate over a given distance is equal given by v = (2 * a * y)^0.5 [ the square root of 2 times acceleration times distance]. In our case the acceleration is due to gravity, and so "a" is equal to 9.8 meter per second squared and y is the distance the weight falls before being stopped by the rope. So if we dropped a weight and allowed it to fall 1 meter, the velocity will be (2 * 9.8 * 1)^0.5 or 4.42 m/s. If the stretch in the rope is such that it stops the weight over the distance of 1 cm (0.01 m), then solving the above equation for acceleration, the deceleration required is v^2 / (2 * y). With v = 4.42 m/s and y = 0.01 m, a = 4.42^2 / (2 * 0.01) = 980 m/s^2. Then to get the force generated by a given weight, assume that the weight being dropped has a mass of 1 kilogram. The force is given by our old friend F = m * a. So the force equals 1 kg * 980 m/s^2 = 980 N. To put that in terms of old units, that is equal to 220 pounds force. Because a rope with some give to it acts like a spring, the distance the rope stretches is proportional to the amount of weight being dropped. Without getting into determining the spring constant of the rope, the easiest way to determine the deceleration distance for each weight is to just measure how much the rope stretches for each weight and use that distance to determine the force generated by that given weight. Sorry for the length of my comment, but I hope you find it at least interesting and perhaps thought provoking.
Your fixation on drawers caused you to miss the point, this wasn't a video about drawers. He said pocket joints were appropriate for drawers, but over used in projects that were inappropriate for them, such as those structures that experience forces in the direction he tested.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life. If you truly are in academia then I guess I can understand the autist drawer comment you left.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life. If you are truly in academia or research then I guess I can understand the autist comment you left.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life. If you are truly in academia then I guess I can understand the long comment you left.
@@pkernoob786 why yes I am an academician. But my major issue is that I type at about 120 wpm. So it is far too easy to type about as fast as i think. When writing journal articles and the like, I take far longer to edit my text down. So as Mark Twain is quoted as saying, "Pardon the length of my note. If I had had more time, it would have been much shorter."
Very good video, I like these style ones from you. So shop furniture, I dont glue mine too. And I have taken apart and rebuilt alot of mine over the years. But my shop is in a 1 car garage. So its pretty much everytime I buy a new tool/upgrade one, it breaks my shop lol. But I have saved alot of money over the years using the mindset my work furniture is not to be expensive and not to get attached. Its all 2x4s(watched your video about those too lol) and plywood. Its where Ive watched enough of your videos, I wouldnt take apart the type of shop furniture your building, but there is something to be said for the quick, dirty, and cheap style im doing. Where when I got a CNC I had to sacrifice some tables, well the plywood tops turned into drawers/cabinet and other various things. Blah blah blah, just saying some people do actually break down and reuse shop furniture
One of the things that regularly occurs in your many close-ups of driving pocket screws is the slight shift that occurs as you drive pocket screws. It's probably only a 1/16" on average, but it still happens more often than I would like. Is it perhaps something to add to the negative side of using pocket screws?
I was going pretty fast in my test samples, so I wasn't being too too careful. I did find that even under heavy clamping in harder woods that shifting was almost unavoidable.
I usually counter-shift my joint to compensate (and join free-hand, not attempting to limit the shift). The result isn't perfect, but usually good enough and takes minimal post-processing if perfect mating is needed. I bet it's a slightly stronger mating in the end too, since there aren't lateral forces stored in the joint and instead the screw is pulling straighter. (You will need sample joints in the same material to really dial in the shift, or just accept a rough first joint.) Mind you, I still don't use pocket screws very often because speed is rarely a priority in the hobby-level work I do, and my perfectionism balks at the exposed pocket hole even when obscured. I usually end up massacring traditional joinery instead, and in softwood no less. 🙄 For a more legitimate concern, I tend to find in softwood joints that pocket screw heads rip through _very_ easily. In that scenario, the fast option really should be construction screws from the outside - even if you have to first bore deep into a style/leg.
The problem is to me that these new jigs drill the rail away from the stile. I have a bunch of those old Kreg jigs where you clamp the rail and stile to the bench then drill it and screw it in one motion. I never have a problem with it shifting.
As well as preventing splitting, I find that predrilling a hole the thickness of the screw shaft prevents lateral shifting of the joint during fastening with screws. This even holds true in building construction, like when doing skew screws for blind noggins, etc.
Have you tried clamping the wood to prevent splitting? Clamping not only does keep the two (same-width!) ends in line, it also counteracts the splitting force.
That is not what I experienced, sometimes they crack and I end up putting screws from the outside so I don't have to redo the joint. I do use pocket screws that I counter sink as they hold better than construction screw.
When talking about using "construction" screws, especially for these long screw into end grain scenarios, I always use GRK cabinet screws. They're structural screws with a high tensile load and predictable failure strength, with a very wide flange on the head that keeps them from pulling through. I wonder just how much stronger that makes this kind of joint?
You can probably dial the torque back while driving the screw to have less splitting. It might lessen wood drift too. Also, you maybe could allow for extra movement by off setting the joint the opposite way. As shown by test pieces.
After many year of once in a blue moon projects. I've never had a need to use the pocket screw method, I think, maybe I have and just didn't know it was called that. I have always drill a pilot hole into any material that any self tapping screw is going into to prevent the chance of the material the screw is going into from splitting/deforming/not holding. It's worth the extra step.
Scott, it's no surprise to me that you have 30k views in 24 hours and a whopping 127k subscribers. I still remember you having 700 views per month. I hope that you will continue to surf this growing wave in 2024. Merry Xmas.
This is a cool video. Regarding the cracking, it looks like you’re using an impact driver to drive the screws. Kreg says to use a driver with a clutch to avoid overdriving.
This is true, but I found that the cracks start before the screw is fully seated. I'm not so sure that the impact driver really has an effect in this case. I think over driving screws can definitely cause more cracking but I guess you'll have to take my word for it that I'm pretty decent with an impact 😅. There's a pitch change when it fully seats.
oooh i finally get why wood workers do that! I'm not a wood worker but I love it, I sometimes wish i had the space for it and the time etc but i'm also sure i'd abandon it pretty quickly LOL. nice watching others do it still!
Here in Germany hardly anyone uses pocket screws. When do boxing corners or any other 90° joins, we simply drill through the outer piece and pre-drill (with a much smaller drill than the screw diameter) to prevent splitting. For a nice finish we do a countersink drilling before screwing the parts together. For pocket screw joints u always need some kind of jig. This needs to be either properly hold or clamped to drill the holes with the right angle. This seems to be a bit too much "tam tam" in order to some simple wood joints by using screws. Moreover does pocket screws create these long elliptical ugly looking holes. Everyone seeing them, knows right away about the "hidden" screws, which is the most hilarious about it at all.
What I find interesting in these tests, when using the thickness of wood you are using, I always use 1-5/8" screws. And I never pocket. I only use 1-1/4" screws when attaching wood of 1/4" or thinner.
So, I saw another carpenter who showed a different use for the pocket screws. Instead of using screws he over drilled the holes using the guide and put wooden dowels in. It would be interesting to see you test that out as well. It also had a pretty cool effect when he used a darker wood with the lighter dowels.
Switch your brain to think of pocket screws as permanently placed clamps. Use total wood glue coverage and the holding power of the screw is irrelevant. I have very often completely removed all the pocket screws from projects after the glue dried with zero problems. Screws are clamps. If you're not using wood glue there's great tips in the video to prevent splitting / increase holding power!
My question here is - are you testing the screw (pocket screw vs construction screw) or are you testing the connection method (pocket vs end grain). I question this since through the video you made a point to differentiate between the screws and later between the method. I believe this would have been better test had you used the same screw for both methods.
You mean like using the 2" butt joint screws in his pocket holes? The longer screws would just blow through the other side of the wood. Wouldn't that make the pocket pointless? Can't really do the reverse either because nobody is going to use a short 1-1.25" pocket screw on a butt joint. That would be pointless. I prefer that he compares real-world application, and nobody is going to create a butt joint through 3/4 wood with a short screw.
I remember when beginning woodworking being excited about pocket holes, and immediately started trying to join 1/2" plywood together for some small shelves to go on top of my desk. It didn't go well. I eventually learned it's possible but it's a pain in the butt where I ended up having to snip the tip off the 1" panhead screw, etc. but then I also had issues with clamping so it was still pretty frustrating back then (I'm able to make them no problem now of course). But yeah that's one thing I think that should be made clear at least to beginners in all the various pocket hole vids is that for the most part, it's best for 3/4"+ thicknesses lol.
There is a new micro pocket hole jig, as well as an XL jig. The micro is for 1/2 inch stuff, and the XL is for outdoor stuff like patio furniture (2x4 and 2x6). Kreg makes them. Of course they come with different size screws
I came up with a file for a 3d printed pocket jig where you could adjust it for whatever thickness of wood you wanted as well as several other parameters including hole depth and angle and spacing. I printed them for 3/4 and 1/2 but in theory you could do anything (though the model starts getting a bit weird with extremes)
You should try using the pocket screws in place of the construction screws as they hold better because of the pan head and can be counter sunk and hidden just like the construction screws.
Most of the time I watch a wood working video I get amazed at how much people like to overcomplicate things. Dowel, domino, pocket screws and other ridiculously complex joints when everthing they needed was a simple screw from the outside. I guess these people just try to look cool but what they are doing is to scare people from wood work. This is a nice video who shows that many times the simple is better.
I constructed kitchen drawers with screws from the outside. Predrilled holes to set location and reduce splitting. 30yrs later they were still solid. If you use a non flat head screw and don't countersink at a matching angle to the screw head you are asking for splits.
Thanks for posting, informative. I just made my first set of paint grade cabinet doors. I considered running screws directly in and plugging the holes with dowels and filler but thought pocket screws would be a little faster. I think it was. I also like pocket screws because I don't need clamps and the doors can be moved about immediately upon assembly.
1. Never been interested in carpentry in the slightest 2. Literally no clue what you are talking about 3. I WILL NEVER NEED THIS INFO And yet here I sit watching the whole video because you are very charismatic and have a very satisying editing style. Reminds me of that one scientifc cooking show from the 2000s, the name escapes me. But this feels like that for carpentry. I could go to sleep watching this, in a good way.
Very amateur carpenter that has only used pocket screws for softwood face frames and softwood window trim here: Pocket screws are strong enough. For me the main point of pocket screws is to quickly make a serviceable joint. If I build furniture that I expect my grand child to inherit, then I'm not going to use pocket screws. I do enjoy these how strong is this joint videos, but as a very amateur carpenter they don't influence my very amateur carpenter ways.
The downside of that wall heater vs a mini split is you'll end up spending more money over all in electric. Moving heat is a lot cheaper than producing it, unless you live somewhere that's like.. -40 or something outside.
I did a tabletop with some oak I had laying around 4/4 basically after milling. I did a test glue up of 48" x 48" 6 panels. Boards were 6-9" wide. I did pocket holes as a test, just using clamps at seams. It moved a bit, not much, just 1/16th. So then I said ok, I'll use a steel I beam I have that's 8" tall and 1/4" thick milled dead flat (maybe milled isnt the word, I took it to a machine shop, I have a pair of them). I put the two ibeams one top, one bottom and clamped those. Then I put pocket holes, and then took off. No movement, zero. However, that is heavy as those beams are really heavy and it's impractical. If I am going that route, then cauls are used and I'm doing a glue up. Sure sure, you could go pay 150$ run it through the 80 grit wide belt sander and all that, but that's not what I'm about lol. In the end, woodworking is a pain in the ass. I think for cabinets, drawers, boxes, etc - pockets are great because the tolerance can be....tolerated. 1/16" you can just sand that off. On a table top, if you have several areas you start playing the put straight edge, look for light under it and spending so much damn time knocking things down, feathering and just general shenanigans that I think a certain size table pockets work, maybe 36" wide, but wider than that it gets sort of dicey.
Got it! A longer screw will always be better than a shorter screw at an odd angle, which is better than a shorter straightforward screw; unless you are trying to hide your screwing then, a shorter screw at an different angle is the best way to screw.
Really? What about Matthias Wandel, woodworkweb, Steve Ramsey, Jon Peters, Rag'n'Bone, the great Paul Sellers, and John Heisz and Darbin Orvar to a degree. I don't know how this mediocre video made you such a good impression. Its not bad, but...
@@KaloyanDobrev You assume I've ever watched any of those people... and even if it's not the most complex or most skill required to complete. He did an excellent job in his descriptions, instructions and explanations... and he has an overall quality in his videos that I have not seen in other videos, not even in some of the more professional videos. Yeah, I may not need each and every single detail explained... but he did a good job doing so, in a way that I think anyone could explain, yet in a way that was not made boring to people whom are already skilled.
The question, as with all joinery , is how strong the joint needs to be. In all likelihood pocket screws will be sufficient for the joint in question, such as face frames, built in cabinets etc. Any joint subject to loads, especially racking, should be constructed using more robust methods.
I do the same with screws as I do with nails: I always drill the pilot holes and thus place the screws, at a bit of an angle. So 2 nails could be driven in, not parallel as ||, but angled as \/ or /\. This keeps the screws, and thus the attached pieces from being able to just pull straight out. So it's already sort of the pocket-screw way.
It always boils down to two questions: 1. How many threads are gripping in the wood? 2. How far away are they from the end of the wood fibers? If only a short piece of screw gets a grip in the second piece of wood, it won't hold much. If it grips it close to the end of the wood, it is much more prone to rip the fibers apart instead of holding. Pocket holes from the inside to the outside will always be closer to the end of the wood as those from the outside to the inside, and pocket holes into a flat board will always have less wood to grip on than long screws in a deep hole.
I'm amazed at the strength difference between the pocket screws strength when done the "right" way and the "wrong" way! Can anyone explain why it's such a large difference? Would the difference be the same if it was loaded in the opposite direction?
Going the wrong way drives the tip of screw right to the end of the receiving board. The length of the fibers holding the screw in are shorter and will split easier.
@@GameOn0827 No. I'm referring to when he was talking about putting the pocket screws on the inside and the outside (right and wrong) of a box. The receiving grain orientation is the same, but the strength is massively different.
@@clarkeysam The orientation is the same, but the length is different. Look at the thumbnail for the video and see how close the screw is to the end of the board.
I have found that, while drilling pilot holes is 'gold standard,' if you fix a clamp where the split is likely to occur, THEN run the screw in, the wood is forced to accommodate the thread and rarely splits once the clamp is removed. Inconvenient, but less time consuming than drilling pilots.
I built a free standing cabinet with pocket screws and glue that held up way better than expected. Other methods may be stronger, but it is completely fine for cabinets/islands.
Do you pre-drill for the construciton screws? How do you keep the hols straight? Every time I use that method hald the screws angle out of the wood. So pocket hole screws are easier to install without that kind of screw up.
I never used such a jig until recently when I had a problem to solve and the pocket screw was literally the only solution that would work. I've become a fan! Now, WHERE did you get those giant screw props?????? 😂😂
Your video clearly show what's wrong with pocket hole jigs. The drill bits! The bits ought to be ground with the smaller pilot hole diameters to fit the various length screws used, 1"-2 1/2". An integral stop ring on the shaft on each to set the head just below the surface of the pocket...tapered at the end to keep the sliding around and splitting stock problems way down.
I think too many folks are trying to use pocket screws where they were never really intended to be used. Pocket screws simply aren't a very strong joint compared to just about any other joinery. We use them to hold stuff together until the glue cures. We would never use them to say hold a table leg to a table stringer.
I'm hoping someone here can help. I have to rebuild large patio screen frames that were originally constructed out of 2x4s and I found this video while researching pocket holes, which I assumed would be the best way to attach the 2x4s to each other (the original construction joined the 2x4s using flat sheet metal laied over the joint and screwed to the wood). I'm excited about the prospect of using 2" screws and avoiding having to create the pocket holes for each of my joints, but I'm very inexperienced in wood. I would assume that you would have to pre-drill the 2x4s before using the 2" screws, but your video never discussed whether or not you pre-drilled your holes or if it was necessary. Awesome video though! I love your scientific approach to questions 'conventional wisdom'. Thanks!
You shouldn't need to make a pilot hole in the mating piece if it's 2x4 construction lumber. There was a whole section of this video about pilot holes.
Good to know the long screw in end grain is stronger than previously thought. So much easier to simply drill a pilot hole than a screw pocket. Thanks for sharing!
My intuition is that predrilling for the core is stronger than just screwing. My reasoning is that the core smashing its own way in there will just cut up that mangled displaced wood. Especially so with cutter screws. The only thing I like about cutter screws is that they enter easily. Good when holding a piece with one hand.
6:00 I think that the conclusion of this testing mostly depends on whether you're applying force to expand or contract the angle of the joint. Screws on the inside are going to create a joint that's weaker to splaying forces, but stronger to collapsing forces. I don't do enough woodworking to know which is the more common method of failure, but I'd think it would be somewhat context-dependent.
That Dreo heater looks awesome, and it might cost a fraction of a heat pump install, but the electricity use... eh. Space heaters are usually almost identical in electricity use, because pretty much all of them use the same power to generate the same heat. The big factor between one heater and another, is usually the fan and how good it can push that hot air into a room. Either way, using space heaters is prohibitively _expensive_ and you'll certainly notice it when you get your electric bill at the end of the month and it's $40-50 higher than before.
One exception for space heaters is infrared heaters. If you're looking for personal comfort only, and you can stay in the path of the heat at least most of the time, you can dial down the heat output and stay comfy even in a very cold work space. Not that useful if you need the air temp up for storing finish products, in which case you should absolutely use a heat pump if you have to use an electric heat source.
Looks amazing, i have been thinking about building one but it will have to be above ground being i live in south Florida. Someone already asked but i will with a couple other questions. First a suggestion You should be doing voice over narrations explaining the what and why. What is on the orher side of the fence? Sounds like a 12 lane highway. All the more reason for voice over. Is there one or two layers of cement board? What was the blue stuff you put on. Any leaks? How are you heating it? Would love to hear from you Bob
Really interesting. I’d stay with the wood working. Your knowledge of how taps work is only about 33% correct. I trust you know more about woodworking than me. And that I learned something new today.
To reduce splitting (in many situations, not just this kind of joint), stage the screws you'll be using by poking them into a bit of beeswax or a bar of soap. Or even chapstick.
I totally agree with your conclusion. They have their place and are very useful in that place. But you didn't touch on the main downside of the pocket screw system which I really don't like. CREEP. Because the pocket screw holes are drilled at an angle to the mating face (not perpendicular), when you screw up the joint - especially when you have glue there as a 'lubricant' - the angled compressive force on the joint, exerted by the screw, will not just pull the joint up, but will tend to slide the joint sideways, or 'creep'. Set the butt joint up perfectly at a right angle with the pocket screws drilled, after first gluing the mating surface, and when you sinch the screws down the lovely side/end grain flush face will be marred by a step, as the joint creeps the long grain piece away from flush with the end grain piece by a small amount. You could see this happening all through the section where you were explaining about splitting. It's very irritating but there's nothing you can do about it (because of the geometry) but cramp everything down solidly in the assembly process. Then it's not such a problem. But again, as you said, the whole point of pocket screws is speed and ease of use. Yes they're easy to use, but the complication of the creep can make assembly more complicated than a standard butt joint, due to the cramping needed to keep everything flush on the outside. I steer clear of them myself. Like you say, there are other options.
Super interesting comparisons! Have you compared pocket screws vs. pocket screws with a pilot hole? I've been wondering for a while if the pilot hole has any effect.
I now have a couple very cracked joints in my hard maple face frame as a constant reminder of my hubris... But rather than admit I was too impatient to buy a long enough bit to pre-drill, I shall declare it a successful reproduction of your experiment lol
None of these joints would fit in my pocket.
There he is!
Screws. He said screws man
The only ones that do are illegal in a lot of places still too.
😂, dead!
Did not realize I was not subscribed to you...not much of a comment guy, but I made a good choice. Stupid story I know. Either way, this was a Hella funny comment, even better it was another creator space that drove this. Happy new year everyone!
trick i learn some years ago .. use regular Screws with Glue to get stuff done fast, when the glue is dry/hardned, unscrew the screw and replace them with Dowels .. saves the Time for Clamps and you can go on with the work
Now that is a damn good idea. Screws would work where no clamp would. Then, you don't have to worry about aligning the dowel holes in the boards.
ooooouuuh, big brain small pepe idea!
@@GrantSR This also seems like pretty good idea if you can't afford multiple clamps (or any at all, in my case)
@@KibitoAkuya As someone who lived in a minivan for six years, sometimes you just don't have room to store lots of clamps. Most of the time my "clamps" were just really large rocks that I found in the desert.
Good one, thank you.
My biggest issue with pocket joints is it always moves as you tighten it up due to the angled screws. You have to remember to clamp everything down first.
I've used pocket screws before in hardwood for a chunky but basic mirror frame. The big thing I'd do differently is glue the butt joint. I didn't use any glue at all, so as careful as I was to align it when screwing, it shifted over time so the joints are no longer flush/in-plane. So if I was to do it again, I'd glue the butt joints and clamp/screw until dry, then finish fully tightening the screw if need be (in the event the pocket screw being fully torqued were causing alignment issues)
You still could take apart and try glueing
@@nickk05281982 yeah I keep thinking about that. Maybe one day I'll get the motivation to do that. It's a big mirror and obviously has glass and weighs a fair bit, so it'd be a little bit of a pain in the ass. But once supported, I should be able to loosen the screws and squirt some glue in there and tighten it back up.
I use these for everything but what they are generally used for lol
I still clamp things (those 90° are super helpful) but I like to let the screw “pilot hole” for itself by running the screw in reverse before sending it home
Scott, you’re probably one of the few people who can engage me on this topic for a full 13:46 minutes without me getting bored. It’s interesting how we just come to accept “common knowledge” as fact when testing often proves otherwise. I hope that by June of 2024, you’ll see 200k in subscribers 😊
Thanks so much Aaron! Thinking critically about common knowledge is something that I enjoy. Cheers!
Oh he will go far past 200k I predict 1m subs by one year from today.
This guy produces videos like he's been editing since childhood.
Thanks woodworking guy, this vid cleared up a lot for me about splitting my pieces. I assemble furniture and install cameras and splitting wood is a problem for me if I can't rejoin it.
I just want to build some racks for my cats to play on. Holes in the floors so they can go from one level to another. Nothing special.
Use 2x4's.
Your mini-split says it's 42 degrees in your workshop, and I can't figure out if it's really cold in there or really hot.
😅 It's 42F but maybe it's outside temp.
That was bugging me too
I was thinking that was Celsius, but that would translate to 107 Fahrenheit.
It could be set to display humidity since he's a woodworker.
If you look closely it says 42F.@@jej2371
A self drilling wood screw more closely resembles a spiral point tap instead of the hand tap you showed. You do not need to reverse to break the chip with this kind of tap as it pushes the chip forward out of the hole (for that reason, they shouldn't be used in a blind hole). However, your point about the screw not removing material is true, although the slot ground in the screw would hold some amount of material.
Another way to stop cracking would be to not go full send and go in a bit, back it out and then go in. The screw itself can clear the hole. Just like in the metal threading example.
Have you tried this? I'm skeptical, but if it works the mechanism would be different. When tapping a hole, the hole is already pre-drilled which reduces the amount of material to be removed. Additionally, taps have large recesses along their entire length to accommodate the removed material and provide a path for the material to potentially be pushed or fall out of the hole. Driving in a screw without pre-drilling is a different story. There's no real path for material removal out of the hole, so whether the wood splits comes down to whether the tensile strength of the lignin bonds beside the screw path are stronger than the compressive strength of the material in and around the screw path. Maybe backing off might help, but I expect that if it does it would be because you're allowing time for the compressed material to yield to the compressive forces before there's enough force there to overcome tensile strength in the lignin and split the wood. If that's true, than simply going slower might achieve the same result, but I still like my clamp idea better.
Yeah, it tends to work in my experience. Full send, it does split. Instead, impact driver it part way, back it out 90%, send it in again. For really long screws, do it twice. The other trick I use is a smaller diameter screw to pin it in place and "predrill", then put the full size screws in. Keeps everything clamped.
thats what she said
Changing woodworking lore and meta one video at a time. Great work as usual!
Glad you liked!
I love how the glue without the pocket screw scored the same as the 1-1/4" pocket screw meaning someone without any power tools could achieve a similar result to someone using power tools but not effectively using glue.
Sure but, genuine question... Who the hell doesn't have a power drill in this day and age? They're like 40 bucks for a cheep one that will work okay.
@@MeepChangeling It's for the case that you're new to woodworking or just have a one-off project to complete. E.g. I'm building some shelves, I have a drill but I cut all the wood by hand saw(!). Circular saws are almost as cheap as drills but I'm not sure I'll continue to do such projects later on and I definitely don't want another bulky electric tool lying around collecting dust!
I'm the same with pocket hole jig and all sorts of other tools, that would save me a lot of time but I just don't know if I'll ever use it again. Yes, at a certain point this becomes counter-productive but you get the concept.
You might argue that learning about this stuff is a bigger investment and suggests you will do it again. That's true but my drum kit and guitar that collecting dust from when I was a child say different!
This is exactly how to make a RUclips video. Informative and to the point. Keep up the good work!
This shows what has been common practice in every shop I've worked in over the years; pocket screw construction is used when no fastener should be seen and there is not time for joinery.
I had a job where I sometimes needed to add blocking on the back side of a cabinet face to have a 2.5" wide mounting position that wouldn't be visible. I didn't have a jig, specialty pocket screws, a pocket drill bit, or time to glue. And, I couldn't screw through the front of the cabinet. The stock wood I had was about 2.5" wide by 3/4" thick pine. So I found the best way to attach the blocking was pocket screws, but I had to figure out how to fashion my own pockets in the field using two different drill bits. It wasn't super pretty at first, but I was kind of proud of how consistent and quick I could make them after a while, and not terrible looking, but still obviously not a jig. The nice thing was because of how I made the pockets myself, I could customize the distance of the pocket from the joint based on the length of screw my company happened to make available to me. And I always pre drilled the cabinet part to receive the screw. I didn't see that as costing a significant amount of time, when compared to the idea of splitting a clients cabinet.
What I love about pocket hole joinery is how forgiving it is. If you have an alignment error when putting two boards together you’re committed with biscuits, dovetail, etc. With pockethole you just remove the screws from the original attempt, drill new pockets about 3/4” from the first attempts and tada… you’re in fresh wood and nobody’s the wiser assuming it’s a joint on the back or bottom of your project. For that reason alone I find using Kreg approach very user friendly and way faster than biscuit/dovetail/dado/domino/etc
@@oldgrunt5569 I don't think he said pocket holes were useless, he merely compared how they stand up to other methods. He openly admits his test weren't exactly lab grade & to be taken with a pinch of salt, I found the information extremely useful.
I will continue to use pocket screws when it suits but after watching this I'll probably just screw directly into the grain using longer screws with glue more often when aesthetics are not important. I've always suspected this was just as strong as pocket screws & it's definately nice to have a little more information on the subject.
Scott, Excellent video. I've got a pocket screw jig but don't remember using it. I don't generally use screws for furniture. When I do, I predrill and angle the screw from the opposite side. I've thought that woodworkers tend to over use pocket screws. You show that, many times, they do. But, I think most woodworkers, including me, have latched onto ways of doing things that don't make much sense when you think about it.
I just made my first nightstand with pocket screws and it turned out great!!
Now when you finish a project and forget a few pocket screws in your pocket you can put them on your nightstand 😂
The finer threads on the screws helps prevent splitting by having thin, sharp threads that will more or less cut into the wood and not press it outward like a wedge. The very thin, sharp tips cut the fibers in half and split them forward and backwards more then the thicker threads, which create a lot more outward pressure. They're not perfect, but they definitely work. Like it was shown in the video though, they're not necessary if you drill a pilot hole, which is the only way to do it in my opinion. I'm not sure if they're stronger than the normal screws though after a pilot hole is drilled. I would bet that the regular screws are stronger, because they have a larger diameter (is the same side drill bit was used to drill the pilot hole)... so I've always thought the regular screws were the best option with a pilot hole. I'm not sure if it really makes a difference though. (Would love to see that tested, both with the same size pilot holes, but also with a slightly smaller pilot hole to match the shortened diameter of the finer thread screws. Would be cool in general to see if pilot hole size makes a big difference too).
It kills me to think that I was using 2 drill bits to make pocket holes in the late 80’s and could’ve been the inventor of the jig, if only I knew how to make a jig back then 😢. I was a teenager then.
I use pocket screws without glue quite frequently, but usually when fastening face frames to cabinet fronts. That and constructing face frames are usually the only place I use them but find them very useful for those two purposes.
Thanks for highlighting this issue. I have never liked pocket holes and don't use them, except on a few very rare occasions. It has always bothered me when seeing RUclipsrs use pocket holes when there is no reason for it. Why the extra step?
As a researcher I love data, the more the merrier. But I also know that data from unrepresentative tests can unhelpful or even very misleading. So my continuing concern is testing the strength of joinery with a bending test since I can't think of many cases where in a finished piece only one end of a board is secured and it is subjected to repeated high loading.
The place where joint strength is a big issue is in drawers where loads are frequently applied to the joints. In the case of the joints in drawers nearly all of the forces generated are parallel to the joint line and so are generating shearing forces in the joint. This assumes that you make the sides of the drawer longer so they overlap the front and back. If the front/back of the drawer overlaps the sides, then the forces in the joint will be perpendicular to the joint and it will experience all pulling forces. So if made with the sides overlapping the front/back, it really shouldn't matter whether you screw through the side and into the end grain of the front/back or use pocket screws that go the opposite direction because the forces in the joint will be perpendicular to the screw and so the joint can only fail if the screw is sheared in half, or the wood fibers fail and the screw is pulled sideways through the wood. Plus the glue line will also be in shear, which should be its strongest direction.
Also the highest forces experienced by a drawer won't be the steady slow build up of forces until the drawer opens or you rip the front off the drawer. Rather the highest forces are likely to occur when something in the drawer jams against the frame and the drawer stops in a fraction of second. The whole F=ma thing then says that the high deceleration rate required to stop the drawer and all of its contents over a very short distance and time must be very high and as a result the force on the joints will also be very high. Further this force will go to this high level nearly instantaneously, but it will only last a fraction of a second. This is important because materials behave very differently when forces built to a peak at very different rates. Think about the difference if in when breaking a board in a karate demonstration if instead of a hitting the board with their hand already moving rapidly the person instead placed their hand on the board and then slowly pressed harder and harder until the board broke. When hitting it hard and fast, the board breaks and the person holding it feels a bit of a shock move their arms, but doesn't get pushed back. But if the pressure is applied slowly, the person holding the board will have to lean into the force or they will get pushed back.
I think that this is the joint configuration and load profile that should be replicated in any test of joint strength. One way to test the strength of joints in this way is to build a drawer without the back. Then solidly clamp the sides to a very stout test frame so that the sides won't move. Then to apply the load to the joint, an eye bolt is attached to the drawer front (likely good to sandwich the drawer front between two metal strips with the eye bolt through a hole in the middle so that the load is distributed across the drawer front. A rope with just a little bit of stretch to it is attached to the eye bolt on one end and a weight on the other. By allowing the weight to fall a short distance (say a meter to make the calculations easier) a force equal to that required to decelerate the weight to zero velocity over a very short distance will be placed on the drawer front the same sharp rise and short duration profile that a jammed drawer will experience. The heavier the mass, the higher the resulting force. While the applied force is not as easy to obtain as reading the number off of the digital display, the necessary formulas aren't that hard.
The velocity of the weight after accelerating at a constant rate over a given distance is equal given by v = (2 * a * y)^0.5 [ the square root of 2 times acceleration times distance]. In our case the acceleration is due to gravity, and so "a" is equal to 9.8 meter per second squared and y is the distance the weight falls before being stopped by the rope. So if we dropped a weight and allowed it to fall 1 meter, the velocity will be (2 * 9.8 * 1)^0.5 or 4.42 m/s. If the stretch in the rope is such that it stops the weight over the distance of 1 cm (0.01 m), then solving the above equation for acceleration, the deceleration required is v^2 / (2 * y). With v = 4.42 m/s and y = 0.01 m, a = 4.42^2 / (2 * 0.01) = 980 m/s^2. Then to get the force generated by a given weight, assume that the weight being dropped has a mass of 1 kilogram. The force is given by our old friend F = m * a. So the force equals 1 kg * 980 m/s^2 = 980 N. To put that in terms of old units, that is equal to 220 pounds force.
Because a rope with some give to it acts like a spring, the distance the rope stretches is proportional to the amount of weight being dropped. Without getting into determining the spring constant of the rope, the easiest way to determine the deceleration distance for each weight is to just measure how much the rope stretches for each weight and use that distance to determine the force generated by that given weight.
Sorry for the length of my comment, but I hope you find it at least interesting and perhaps thought provoking.
Your fixation on drawers caused you to miss the point, this wasn't a video about drawers. He said pocket joints were appropriate for drawers, but over used in projects that were inappropriate for them, such as those structures that experience forces in the direction he tested.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life.
If you truly are in academia then I guess I can understand the autist drawer comment you left.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life.
If you are truly in academia or research then I guess I can understand the autist comment you left.
Learn to say more while talking less in youtube comments and in life.
If you are truly in academia then I guess I can understand the long comment you left.
@@pkernoob786 why yes I am an academician. But my major issue is that I type at about 120 wpm. So it is far too easy to type about as fast as i think. When writing journal articles and the like, I take far longer to edit my text down. So as Mark Twain is quoted as saying, "Pardon the length of my note. If I had had more time, it would have been much shorter."
The windows vista joke really got me
Very good video, I like these style ones from you. So shop furniture, I dont glue mine too. And I have taken apart and rebuilt alot of mine over the years. But my shop is in a 1 car garage. So its pretty much everytime I buy a new tool/upgrade one, it breaks my shop lol. But I have saved alot of money over the years using the mindset my work furniture is not to be expensive and not to get attached. Its all 2x4s(watched your video about those too lol) and plywood. Its where Ive watched enough of your videos, I wouldnt take apart the type of shop furniture your building, but there is something to be said for the quick, dirty, and cheap style im doing. Where when I got a CNC I had to sacrifice some tables, well the plywood tops turned into drawers/cabinet and other various things. Blah blah blah, just saying some people do actually break down and reuse shop furniture
The confidence level in your conclusion is spot on :P
One of the things that regularly occurs in your many close-ups of driving pocket screws is the slight shift that occurs as you drive pocket screws. It's probably only a 1/16" on average, but it still happens more often than I would like. Is it perhaps something to add to the negative side of using pocket screws?
I was going pretty fast in my test samples, so I wasn't being too too careful. I did find that even under heavy clamping in harder woods that shifting was almost unavoidable.
drives me nuts, really the only reason i try to avoid them when possible
I usually counter-shift my joint to compensate (and join free-hand, not attempting to limit the shift). The result isn't perfect, but usually good enough and takes minimal post-processing if perfect mating is needed. I bet it's a slightly stronger mating in the end too, since there aren't lateral forces stored in the joint and instead the screw is pulling straighter.
(You will need sample joints in the same material to really dial in the shift, or just accept a rough first joint.)
Mind you, I still don't use pocket screws very often because speed is rarely a priority in the hobby-level work I do, and my perfectionism balks at the exposed pocket hole even when obscured. I usually end up massacring traditional joinery instead, and in softwood no less. 🙄
For a more legitimate concern, I tend to find in softwood joints that pocket screw heads rip through _very_ easily. In that scenario, the fast option really should be construction screws from the outside - even if you have to first bore deep into a style/leg.
The problem is to me that these new jigs drill the rail away from the stile. I have a bunch of those old Kreg jigs where you clamp the rail and stile to the bench then drill it and screw it in one motion. I never have a problem with it shifting.
As well as preventing splitting, I find that predrilling a hole the thickness of the screw shaft prevents lateral shifting of the joint during fastening with screws. This even holds true in building construction, like when doing skew screws for blind noggins, etc.
The fact that you only have 127k subscribers is a crime against humanity. Great video as always.
Really.
Have you tried clamping the wood to prevent splitting? Clamping not only does keep the two (same-width!) ends in line, it also counteracts the splitting force.
That is not what I experienced, sometimes they crack and I end up putting screws from the outside so I don't have to redo the joint. I do use pocket screws that I counter sink as they hold better than construction screw.
He likes making subjective material and opinions appear scientific when it's nothing more than pseudo objective posturing.
I always appreciate transparency, like how you acknowledge that the test isn't perfect, so thank you for that.
The glue factor was huge! Makes sense. Well done 👍 and thanks for answering common questions with real practical tests
When talking about using "construction" screws, especially for these long screw into end grain scenarios, I always use GRK cabinet screws. They're structural screws with a high tensile load and predictable failure strength, with a very wide flange on the head that keeps them from pulling through. I wonder just how much stronger that makes this kind of joint?
You can probably dial the torque back while driving the screw to have less splitting. It might lessen wood drift too. Also, you maybe could allow for extra movement by off setting the joint the opposite way. As shown by test pieces.
Can't you drill a little bit in and then a little in reverse and then back in?
You probably can do that, but lowering the torque might be better without a of tiny extra steps on each screw.😊
After many year of once in a blue moon projects. I've never had a need to use the pocket screw method, I think, maybe I have and just didn't know it was called that.
I have always drill a pilot hole into any material that any self tapping screw is going into to prevent the chance of the material the screw is going into from splitting/deforming/not holding. It's worth the extra step.
Scott, it's no surprise to me that you have 30k views in 24 hours and a whopping 127k subscribers. I still remember you having 700 views per month. I hope that you will continue to surf this growing wave in 2024. Merry Xmas.
This is a cool video. Regarding the cracking, it looks like you’re using an impact driver to drive the screws. Kreg says to use a driver with a clutch to avoid overdriving.
This is true, but I found that the cracks start before the screw is fully seated. I'm not so sure that the impact driver really has an effect in this case. I think over driving screws can definitely cause more cracking but I guess you'll have to take my word for it that I'm pretty decent with an impact 😅. There's a pitch change when it fully seats.
oooh i finally get why wood workers do that! I'm not a wood worker but I love it, I sometimes wish i had the space for it and the time etc but i'm also sure i'd abandon it pretty quickly LOL. nice watching others do it still!
"I'll know if you don't".... 🤣🤣🤣 Okay Santa...
Seriously, some good points in this one.
Here in Germany hardly anyone uses pocket screws. When do boxing corners or any other 90° joins, we simply drill through the outer piece and pre-drill (with a much smaller drill than the screw diameter) to prevent splitting. For a nice finish we do a countersink drilling before screwing the parts together.
For pocket screw joints u always need some kind of jig. This needs to be either properly hold or clamped to drill the holes with the right angle.
This seems to be a bit too much "tam tam" in order to some simple wood joints by using screws. Moreover does pocket screws create these long elliptical ugly looking holes. Everyone seeing them, knows right away about the "hidden" screws, which is the most hilarious about it at all.
Pocket hole joinery is a cult. The people who use it are not able to see how it's inferior to screwing into the end grain, and deny the problems.
You started with the assumption that pocket screws were inferior then built tests to prove it.
What I find interesting in these tests, when using the thickness of wood you are using, I always use 1-5/8" screws. And I never pocket. I only use 1-1/4" screws when attaching wood of 1/4" or thinner.
So, I saw another carpenter who showed a different use for the pocket screws. Instead of using screws he over drilled the holes using the guide and put wooden dowels in. It would be interesting to see you test that out as well. It also had a pretty cool effect when he used a darker wood with the lighter dowels.
They make a big for that
@llemmon is the big jig?
I predict that an epoxy (like JBWeld) plus 1 screw will beat all configurations you've tested!
Keep up the amazing work!
Switch your brain to think of pocket screws as permanently placed clamps. Use total wood glue coverage and the holding power of the screw is irrelevant. I have very often completely removed all the pocket screws from projects after the glue dried with zero problems. Screws are clamps. If you're not using wood glue there's great tips in the video to prevent splitting / increase holding power!
My question here is - are you testing the screw (pocket screw vs construction screw) or are you testing the connection method (pocket vs end grain). I question this since through the video you made a point to differentiate between the screws and later between the method. I believe this would have been better test had you used the same screw for both methods.
You mean like using the 2" butt joint screws in his pocket holes? The longer screws would just blow through the other side of the wood. Wouldn't that make the pocket pointless? Can't really do the reverse either because nobody is going to use a short 1-1.25" pocket screw on a butt joint. That would be pointless.
I prefer that he compares real-world application, and nobody is going to create a butt joint through 3/4 wood with a short screw.
I taught engineering and material science for 40 years and I have to say nice job!
The pic is not a good example of how to use them. I built a whole kitchen with them, it is AWSOME!
Excellent video! One of the best I've seen on pocket screws. Thank you!
I now learned all I need to know about proper screwing of giant screws!
I remember when beginning woodworking being excited about pocket holes, and immediately started trying to join 1/2" plywood together for some small shelves to go on top of my desk. It didn't go well. I eventually learned it's possible but it's a pain in the butt where I ended up having to snip the tip off the 1" panhead screw, etc. but then I also had issues with clamping so it was still pretty frustrating back then (I'm able to make them no problem now of course). But yeah that's one thing I think that should be made clear at least to beginners in all the various pocket hole vids is that for the most part, it's best for 3/4"+ thicknesses lol.
There is a new micro pocket hole jig, as well as an XL jig. The micro is for 1/2 inch stuff, and the XL is for outdoor stuff like patio furniture (2x4 and 2x6).
Kreg makes them. Of course they come with different size screws
I came up with a file for a 3d printed pocket jig where you could adjust it for whatever thickness of wood you wanted as well as several other parameters including hole depth and angle and spacing. I printed them for 3/4 and 1/2 but in theory you could do anything (though the model starts getting a bit weird with extremes)
That straw demonstration was fantastic
You should try using the pocket screws in place of the construction screws as they hold better because of the pan head and can be counter sunk and hidden just like the construction screws.
Most of the time I watch a wood working video I get amazed at how much people like to overcomplicate things. Dowel, domino, pocket screws and other ridiculously complex joints when everthing they needed was a simple screw from the outside. I guess these people just try to look cool but what they are doing is to scare people from wood work.
This is a nice video who shows that many times the simple is better.
I constructed kitchen drawers with screws from the outside. Predrilled holes to set location and reduce splitting. 30yrs later they were still solid. If you use a non flat head screw and don't countersink at a matching angle to the screw head you are asking for splits.
Thanks for posting, informative. I just made my first set of paint grade cabinet doors. I considered running screws directly in and plugging the holes with dowels and filler but thought pocket screws would be a little faster. I think it was. I also like pocket screws because I don't need clamps and the doors can be moved about immediately upon assembly.
1. Never been interested in carpentry in the slightest
2. Literally no clue what you are talking about
3. I WILL NEVER NEED THIS INFO
And yet here I sit watching the whole video because you are very charismatic and have a very satisying editing style. Reminds me of that one scientifc cooking show from the 2000s, the name escapes me. But this feels like that for carpentry. I could go to sleep watching this, in a good way.
Informative and entertaining. Thanks Scott and do keep the videos coming.
Thank you kindly!
Your awesome! Just when I formed my thought "what about plywood" you were ready with the answer! Thanks for helping us all our by finding the answers!
Very amateur carpenter that has only used pocket screws for softwood face frames and softwood window trim here: Pocket screws are strong enough. For me the main point of pocket screws is to quickly make a serviceable joint. If I build furniture that I expect my grand child to inherit, then I'm not going to use pocket screws. I do enjoy these how strong is this joint videos, but as a very amateur carpenter they don't influence my very amateur carpenter ways.
The downside of that wall heater vs a mini split is you'll end up spending more money over all in electric. Moving heat is a lot cheaper than producing it, unless you live somewhere that's like.. -40 or something outside.
That commercial was probably the first and only commercial I have ever watched on RUclips video
Great video. 😎 Your "not thorough" testing was far more thorough than most I've seen!
I did a tabletop with some oak I had laying around 4/4 basically after milling. I did a test glue up of 48" x 48" 6 panels. Boards were 6-9" wide. I did pocket holes as a test, just using clamps at seams. It moved a bit, not much, just 1/16th. So then I said ok, I'll use a steel I beam I have that's 8" tall and 1/4" thick milled dead flat (maybe milled isnt the word, I took it to a machine shop, I have a pair of them). I put the two ibeams one top, one bottom and clamped those. Then I put pocket holes, and then took off. No movement, zero. However, that is heavy as those beams are really heavy and it's impractical. If I am going that route, then cauls are used and I'm doing a glue up. Sure sure, you could go pay 150$ run it through the 80 grit wide belt sander and all that, but that's not what I'm about lol.
In the end, woodworking is a pain in the ass. I think for cabinets, drawers, boxes, etc - pockets are great because the tolerance can be....tolerated. 1/16" you can just sand that off. On a table top, if you have several areas you start playing the put straight edge, look for light under it and spending so much damn time knocking things down, feathering and just general shenanigans that I think a certain size table pockets work, maybe 36" wide, but wider than that it gets sort of dicey.
Got it! A longer screw will always be better than a shorter screw at an odd angle, which is better than a shorter straightforward screw; unless you are trying to hide your screwing then, a shorter screw at an different angle is the best way to screw.
Definitely some of the best woodworking educational videos I've ever seen.
Really? What about Matthias Wandel, woodworkweb, Steve Ramsey, Jon Peters, Rag'n'Bone, the great Paul Sellers, and John Heisz and Darbin Orvar to a degree.
I don't know how this mediocre video made you such a good impression. Its not bad, but...
@@KaloyanDobrev You assume I've ever watched any of those people... and even if it's not the most complex or most skill required to complete. He did an excellent job in his descriptions, instructions and explanations... and he has an overall quality in his videos that I have not seen in other videos, not even in some of the more professional videos. Yeah, I may not need each and every single detail explained... but he did a good job doing so, in a way that I think anyone could explain, yet in a way that was not made boring to people whom are already skilled.
The question, as with all joinery , is how strong the joint needs to be. In all likelihood pocket screws will be sufficient for the joint in question, such as face frames, built in cabinets etc. Any joint subject to loads, especially racking, should be constructed using more robust methods.
I do the same with screws as I do with nails: I always drill the pilot holes and thus place the screws, at a bit of an angle. So 2 nails could be driven in, not parallel as ||, but angled as \/ or /\. This keeps the screws, and thus the attached pieces from being able to just pull straight out. So it's already sort of the pocket-screw way.
Scott, you need a lab coat and funky music like Bill Nye the science guy. Science Rules!!
But what rhymes with Walsh? "🎶Scott Walsh, the Science Woodworking ______ 🎶" 🤔🤔
@@Wordsnwood 🤣 that's going to be a tough one.
It always boils down to two questions:
1. How many threads are gripping in the wood?
2. How far away are they from the end of the wood fibers?
If only a short piece of screw gets a grip in the second piece of wood, it won't hold much. If it grips it close to the end of the wood, it is much more prone to rip the fibers apart instead of holding. Pocket holes from the inside to the outside will always be closer to the end of the wood as those from the outside to the inside, and pocket holes into a flat board will always have less wood to grip on than long screws in a deep hole.
I'm amazed at the strength difference between the pocket screws strength when done the "right" way and the "wrong" way! Can anyone explain why it's such a large difference? Would the difference be the same if it was loaded in the opposite direction?
Going the wrong way drives the tip of screw right to the end of the receiving board. The length of the fibers holding the screw in are shorter and will split easier.
@@GameOn0827 No. I'm referring to when he was talking about putting the pocket screws on the inside and the outside (right and wrong) of a box. The receiving grain orientation is the same, but the strength is massively different.
@@clarkeysam The orientation is the same, but the length is different. Look at the thumbnail for the video and see how close the screw is to the end of the board.
@@GameOn0827 good point.
Good stuff this week Scott, thanks for sharing.
I have found that, while drilling pilot holes is 'gold standard,' if you fix a clamp where the split is likely to occur, THEN run the screw in, the wood is forced to accommodate the thread and rarely splits once the clamp is removed. Inconvenient, but less time consuming than drilling pilots.
The windows vista comment brought back some unpleasant memories
I built a free standing cabinet with pocket screws and glue that held up way better than expected. Other methods may be stronger, but it is completely fine for cabinets/islands.
THANK YOU FOR THIS! I was feeling like I NEEDED to buy a pocket hole jig for all my woodworking projects, but I think I really don't need it!
i like when you retrieved the wood glue from the bin
Do you pre-drill for the construciton screws? How do you keep the hols straight? Every time I use that method hald the screws angle out of the wood. So pocket hole screws are easier to install without that kind of screw up.
I never used such a jig until recently when I had a problem to solve and the pocket screw was literally the only solution that would work. I've become a fan! Now, WHERE did you get those giant screw props?????? 😂😂
Sometime I’d like to see 6 degree pocket holes tested. Those made by Castle 110 pocket hole machine.
Never worked with wood but I found your video wonderful
Your video clearly show what's wrong with pocket hole jigs. The drill bits! The bits ought to be ground with the smaller pilot hole diameters to fit the various length screws used, 1"-2 1/2". An integral stop ring on the shaft on each to set the head just below the surface of the pocket...tapered at the end to keep the sliding around and splitting stock problems way down.
LOL at you picking the glue back from the garbage. 😆
I think too many folks are trying to use pocket screws where they were never really intended to be used. Pocket screws simply aren't a very strong joint compared to just about any other joinery. We use them to hold stuff together until the glue cures. We would never use them to say hold a table leg to a table stringer.
I'm hoping someone here can help. I have to rebuild large patio screen frames that were originally constructed out of 2x4s and I found this video while researching pocket holes, which I assumed would be the best way to attach the 2x4s to each other (the original construction joined the 2x4s using flat sheet metal laied over the joint and screwed to the wood). I'm excited about the prospect of using 2" screws and avoiding having to create the pocket holes for each of my joints, but I'm very inexperienced in wood. I would assume that you would have to pre-drill the 2x4s before using the 2" screws, but your video never discussed whether or not you pre-drilled your holes or if it was necessary. Awesome video though! I love your scientific approach to questions 'conventional wisdom'. Thanks!
You shouldn't need to make a pilot hole in the mating piece if it's 2x4 construction lumber. There was a whole section of this video about pilot holes.
That answered my question on why some of my pieces crack when using pocket screws. I'm learning dowel joinery now. Beginner btw.
Good to know the long screw in end grain is stronger than previously thought. So much easier to simply drill a pilot hole than a screw pocket. Thanks for sharing!
My intuition is that predrilling for the core is stronger than just screwing. My reasoning is that the core smashing its own way in there will just cut up that mangled displaced wood. Especially so with cutter screws.
The only thing I like about cutter screws is that they enter easily. Good when holding a piece with one hand.
6:00 I think that the conclusion of this testing mostly depends on whether you're applying force to expand or contract the angle of the joint. Screws on the inside are going to create a joint that's weaker to splaying forces, but stronger to collapsing forces.
I don't do enough woodworking to know which is the more common method of failure, but I'd think it would be somewhat context-dependent.
Thanks for confirming what I suspected way back when the pocket screw craze began. I never bought a pocket screw outfit.
That Dreo heater looks awesome, and it might cost a fraction of a heat pump install, but the electricity use... eh. Space heaters are usually almost identical in electricity use, because pretty much all of them use the same power to generate the same heat. The big factor between one heater and another, is usually the fan and how good it can push that hot air into a room. Either way, using space heaters is prohibitively _expensive_ and you'll certainly notice it when you get your electric bill at the end of the month and it's $40-50 higher than before.
One exception for space heaters is infrared heaters. If you're looking for personal comfort only, and you can stay in the path of the heat at least most of the time, you can dial down the heat output and stay comfy even in a very cold work space. Not that useful if you need the air temp up for storing finish products, in which case you should absolutely use a heat pump if you have to use an electric heat source.
Looks amazing, i have been thinking about building one but it will have to be above ground being i live in south Florida. Someone already asked but i will with a couple other questions.
First a suggestion
You should be doing voice over narrations explaining the what and why.
What is on the orher side of the fence? Sounds like a 12 lane highway. All the more reason for voice over.
Is there one or two layers of cement board?
What was the blue stuff you put on.
Any leaks?
How are you heating it?
Would love to hear from you
Bob
When I heard joint testing I got excited, then realized that you weren’t talking about what I thought you were going to talk about.
Thank you! Acience good! Woodworking Good, both in the same video, GREAT! Have a goog time during the holidays!
Great video. I had no idea that pocket holes should go on the outside corner.
Really interesting. I’d stay with the wood working. Your knowledge of how taps work is only about 33% correct. I trust you know more about woodworking than me. And that I learned something new today.
This video convinced me to subscribe to your channel. Good stuff!
To reduce splitting (in many situations, not just this kind of joint), stage the screws you'll be using by poking them into a bit of beeswax or a bar of soap. Or even chapstick.
I totally agree with your conclusion. They have their place and are very useful in that place. But you didn't touch on the main downside of the pocket screw system which I really don't like. CREEP. Because the pocket screw holes are drilled at an angle to the mating face (not perpendicular), when you screw up the joint - especially when you have glue there as a 'lubricant' - the angled compressive force on the joint, exerted by the screw, will not just pull the joint up, but will tend to slide the joint sideways, or 'creep'. Set the butt joint up perfectly at a right angle with the pocket screws drilled, after first gluing the mating surface, and when you sinch the screws down the lovely side/end grain flush face will be marred by a step, as the joint creeps the long grain piece away from flush with the end grain piece by a small amount. You could see this happening all through the section where you were explaining about splitting. It's very irritating but there's nothing you can do about it (because of the geometry) but cramp everything down solidly in the assembly process. Then it's not such a problem. But again, as you said, the whole point of pocket screws is speed and ease of use. Yes they're easy to use, but the complication of the creep can make assembly more complicated than a standard butt joint, due to the cramping needed to keep everything flush on the outside. I steer clear of them myself. Like you say, there are other options.
So, are you saying a pocket screw is as strong as a longer screw conventionally?
amazing experiments! learned a lot! thank you
Scott, you are a riot. I may return my pocket screws. thanks for this!
Did you do a test applying force in both directions for the pocket holes? Seems like there should be a considerable difference?
Super interesting comparisons! Have you compared pocket screws vs. pocket screws with a pilot hole? I've been wondering for a while if the pilot hole has any effect.
I now have a couple very cracked joints in my hard maple face frame as a constant reminder of my hubris...
But rather than admit I was too impatient to buy a long enough bit to pre-drill, I shall declare it a successful reproduction of your experiment lol