Man. lemme speak for those guys here of a certain age in the comments watching this. The first 25 min of bill and ryen reminiscing on these obscure playoff series is pure basketball nirvana. if you know, YOU KNOW!!
its funny how having horrace grant and the bulls not having rodman is a clear reasons why the magic were better in 96 grant got hurt in game 1..changed the series...it would of gone 6 if he was healthy
So happy they did this series. That Magic team was my favorite historic team to play with on 2K for a few years. Penny, Shaq, Grant, Anderson, Scott and Shaw, Royal and Bowie off the bench. They had shooting, slashing, inside and perimeter D. Such a good team. Loved the random segway on other series too. That 07 Mavs/Warrriors will always be one of my favorite memories in basketball. The "We Believe" squad in the Oracle was different level of hype. Baron over AK47 still gives me chills.
As someone who started watching the NBA in the late 2010's, born in 1993 Barkley is one of my favs and these deep dives are awesome for context of the series
Just watched the Last Dance and had to cringe at that last KJ miss. He was pretty terrible that whole series. If dude played up to his A game, I think Phoenix wins that series. Chicago was running on fumes at that point. You can see how hard it is to threepeat, maybe harder now, hell those Warriors' bodies just fell apart at the end.
In Chicago in 1996, Horace Grant was public enemy #1. In this series, he was like a prototype stretch 4, or at least the 1995 version of what a stretch 4 is. I felt like he couldn't miss an open 16-footer, and the Bulls conceded a lot of open jumpers because of all the attention Shaq was commanding down low. It wasn't just that he averaged 20 ppg in the first five games, but was also shooting 70%. So he absolutely killed Chicago, and to add insult to injury, the Magic carried him off the court on their shoulders, making all of us Bulls fans hate him for a while.
2:01 THANK YOU SO MUCH!! That 1995 Bulls team were terrible, absolutely terrible. They were 23-25 at the All Star Break and 34-31 when Michael announced his return, the only reason people thought they could win was because they finished the season with a 13-4 run at 47-35 with Jordan
Watching this game, MJ was playing with the same style as in the '93 playoffs. You can tell his timing was off with his teammates, he didn't have his basketball legs, and some of his athletic ability has eroded. He was 32 years old during this series. MJ ran out of gas by the 4th quarter after slashing to the hoop the whole game. And it's why he worked on his post game and fadeaway jumper in the following summer. So all in all, the Magic were in a great rhythm and knew who they were as a team. The Bulls were still trying to figure things out in Game 6. I forgot how fun this '95 Bulls squad was with B.J. at the point and Toni playing 4 along with MJ and Scottie on the wings. Lots of ball movement and an up-tempo style of offense. The Bulls definitely were missing Horace's presence on the boards and being the 3rd guy in the Doberman pressure defense. The next year, they put Harp in the starting lineup and he ended up being the 3rd guy in the press with his length and athleticism. He did a pretty good job of guarding the Glove, Stockton and Mark Jackson in the playoffs. And they traded for Rodman who brought the rebounding and interior physical play. Outside of head-butting a ref and getting suspended, Rodman brought everything the Bulls were hoping for in '96.
Quick note: MJ did average 31ppg in this series, but the advanced stats show that both his efficiency and turnovers were way below his normal level. His advanced stats suggest that 95 MJ is actually the 2nd worse version of MJ's playoff career. That doesn't mean with prime MJ they win, but a deepdive DOES show that it was not a great version of MJ.
Look at his playoff stats, other than an extra turnover a game, he has basically identical numbers to the next 3 years, and in many cases better numbers.
@@jdsilvestri Depends on how advanced you go on the stats. His base stats are great, but his WS/48, OBPM, PER are among the worst of his career. Basically those numbers show is overall impact weren't as strong as the first 3-peat or 2nd 3-peat.
I remember the Magic celebrating by picking up Horace Grant and parading him around. Jordan did not appreciate that, next year they destroyed the Magic 4-0!
exactly. Losing Grant was a huge loss, and it was made even worse by the fact that they also lost Cartwright. While Longley ended up being a solid replacement for Cartwright and an important piece in the second 3peat, he was pretty underwhelming in '95. Additionally, the Bulls failed to adequately replace Grant until '96. Their bigs in '95 were essentially Longley, Perdue, Wennington, Simpkins, Foster, and Blount. Apart from Kukoc when he played at the 4 and Perdue (who was okay, averaging 8 and 7), they got zero production from their bigs. It was quite possibly the worst frontcourt in the league.
Yes same thing actually happened in 1996. Bulls have rodman and Horace got injured in gamae 1 and lost him the whole ECF series and also why the Magic got swept.
Paul Jenkins Not only that, but the Bulls also lost Scott Williams in free agency. Williams was a huge low post defender/rebounder/energy guy for them. They basically had zero inside presence losing both Grant and Williams.
Duncan beat the lakers in 99 also. In only his 2nd season!!!! This is Shaq in his 6th season and Kobe’s 3rd. He is the most underrated player in NBA history!
Kobe just started that year and their coach sucked. Duncan had the benefit of a consistent system with Popovich from the beginning. Plus they never won back to back titles, the toughest to accomplish. Also, there were years where the Lakers just annihilated them in the playoffs. In the end both Kobe and Duncan had 5 rings. But the Spurs never ever reached the peaks the Lakers did. End story, drop mic
@@razkable oh yea? I never knew that, what a smart point you made. So then tell me, what about 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, and 2010? Who won those years? Hmm….
Ok there are a few things that need to be corrected, for the record, especially considering ryen Russillo and Bill Simmons writing off Jordan's rust upon returning from baseball. 32.3pts, 6.3reb, 5.9ast, 2.7stl, 1.0blk, 3.0TOV, 51.6% FG, 84.6% FT - 667 games, Jordan's career before returning to basketball in '95 26.9pts, 6.9reb, 5.3ast, 1.8stl, 0.8blk, 2.1TOV, 41.1% FG, 80.1% FT - 17 games, Jordan's '95 season What do you notice? He's scoring far less and his FG% is 10pts lower. Even his FT% is significantly lower than his career average. For those of us who watched the games, it was repeatedly stated not only by the announcers but the players that Jordan didn't look the same even though he had some explosive games here and there. There was an inconsistency to it. So let's look at the playoffs now. 34.7pts, 6.7reb, 6.6ast, 2.3stl, 1.0blk, 3.3TOV, 50.1% FG, 83.4% FT - 111 games, Jordan's playoff career before returning to basketball in '95 31.5pts, 6.5reb, 4.5ast, 2.3stl, 1.4blk, 4.1TOV, 48.4% FG, 81.0% FT - 10 games, Jordan's '95 playoffs PTS, AST, FG, FT are all noticeably down and TOV are noticeably up. Still phenomenal numbers for any other player, but the point remains that Jordan wasn't Jordan, which is what *everyone* noticed. Glossing over that as if Jordan wasn't rusty is ludicrous especially when you listen to the old broadcasts and to what players had to say back then.
The Bulls were also too small for Orlando in the backcourt. The Bulls rebuilt their 96 team to play against/copy Magic. They signed Rodman to deal with Horace Grant and help on Shaq and moved Ron Harper into the PG slot to matchup with Penny's height. Phil fell in love with the Magic team's height and decided to copy it with Pippen and Jordan handling the ball and not using a true small PG like Kerr most of the time. The Magic played a big part in the Bulls second threepeat.
I loved that Magic team. Wish they could of kept it together longer. Shaq and Penny were awesome. Being a LSU fan Shaq was my guy, but after Jordan Penny was my 2nd favorite guard. But after Jordan, Kobe is my 2nd favorite player of all time. Him and Shaq made me a Lakers fan when I hated them previously. And now I’m back hating them again cause the Pels are my team and I want them good picks. I hope AD leaves that would so fucking awesome C: Shaq PF: Grant SF: Royal, Scott SG: Anderson, Bowie PG: Penny, Shaw Getting Horace Grant from Chicago was a great move. He fit perfect with Shaq. Wasn’t a huge Donald Royal fan cause Dennis Scott was my guy. Speaking of Scott his shooting off the bench was insane and the vet point guard in B Shaw to help Penny out. Anthony Bowie would be a nice 8th guy for most teams. Loved that Magic team
I love how they started the podcast essentially hating on MJ and suggesting everything was on the level and they just lost, and then 13 mins later proceed to detail that this Bulls team was basically a bunch of stiffs with Pippen and Kukoc until out-of-basketball-shape MJ returned in the middle of the year (AND they pointed out how dead tired he looked in this game BECAUSE HE WAS OUT OF BASKETBALL SHAPE!!)
A bunch of stiffs? Lol no. They had Pippen, the best Euro player at the time (Kukoc), Armstrong, Ron Harper, and Jordan. They were still an All-Star team that year and just added to it with Rodman the next year.
Mj was in baseball shape, not basketball. They go over exactly this series in episode 8. Youre talkin turnovers, airballs, and defense. And he still put up numbers
2010 and 2011 LeBron didnt have a post game. James didn't have enough ways to score in the Halfcourt. He knows he didnt make impactful plays in the game. More arguments against LeBron unfortunately is 2006 team USA got a bronze in the world championship with LJ as their best player.
The only knock you need against Lebron is his finals record,to get that close with stacked teams and lose is weak. The only ones I'd let go is the Durant warriors they don't count because they were cheating.
Wrong the bronze medal was won in 2004, not 2006. Wade, Melo, and Bron were on that team. They lost because Larry Brown didn’t let those 3 play more than 10 mins. a game, and the fact that the players only met each other 2 weeks priority to the Olympics
@@johnnyblingg that's a great point. Brown was messing up coaching at that time. But I still believe LJ with a post game would have been excellent there. And in 2006 in the world games they lost to Greece. Also bad coaching but still no post game from LJ. he gets that post game he probably wins and doesn't even go to Miami.
MJ came back with 17 games left in season. Had no training camp. Wasn’t in basketball shape. He had a couple of great games because he’s MJ but his rhythm was off and the team was completely different. No chemistry. Next year he had a full training camp started training early summer and got his game back and the rest is history.
Yeah, Rodman was in integral piece but people overblow it. Rodman's win shares were the lowest of the starters in 96 and really the second lowest of the main rotation guys except Longley. I get a lot of the intangibles can't be conveyed in the stats, but the main difference overall was that same group of mediocre role players in 95 got a full offseason and training camp of maniac MJ beating their asses every day in practice and forcing them to be the best they could.
Yeah, this and 94 was a weird in between transition year from the first threepeat Bulls and next threepeat. The Rodman trade opened everything up. Kukoc could now play against second units, You can shuffle Rodman defensively especially against big guys, which left less tough assignments for Longley, who was a decent scorer at center who you didn't have to cringe to give touches.
MJ was into training coming in before the he came back in March dummy. No athlete will come back without training camp especially coming from a long layoff. And this was proven by Kukoc when he got interviewed and MJ was practicing with them months before coming in but it was not made public.
@@dobz746 it doesn't matter training for baseball is completely different than basketball and with only 17 games left in the season that's a lot to ask to make up for
If Jordan hadn’t left I don’t think they would have lost Horace Grant or they would have found someone to replace him. Having Jordan there totally changes wether a player leaves the team or signing a free agent. So I don’t think you can look at it and just say Jordan lost that series even if he didn’t retire. Things would have been different. But it worked out cause I don’t think they would have won a second threepeat with Grant instead of Rodman and it gave Jordan huge motivation losing to Orlando.
@Aubrey Pender Completely disagree. Remove MJ and Scottie from the equation. Are You saying Horace is better than Rodman or Toni Kukoc? Definitely not. Bill Cartwright better than Luc Longley. Nope. Maybe Jon Paxson/BJ Armstrong are better than Steve Kerr. But not better than Kerr/Ron Harper. Thoughts?
A Key Factor from Game 1 of this series is MJ being loose with his handle when he passed Nick Anderson in the backcourt b/c he thought he was going to get fouled in that situation since there was 18 secs left. His teammates should of communicated with him by talking on D that Nick was coming from behind. MJ tied a career high with 8 turnovers in Game 1 which is not like him to do. He did have a good series but the turnovers in key moments, not controlling the defensive boards as a team & Phil's strategy of letting Horace Grant beat them bite them in the ass, Horace had a great series. The Magic team earned this series WIN. MJ didn't lose this series he learned a lesson & came back stronger & more hungry the next 3 season's.
I just noticed the ザ・ドロッパーズ poster. (The Droppers? Best guess on the katakana transliteration.) So, obviously, it's a basketball movie. Googled it, and it's "Fast Break" with ガブリエル・カプラン ? Even after 30 years in Japan I can't quite figure out why they name some foreign movies/TV shows the way they do. Also, why does he have the Japanese poster? Sorry, the conversation couldn't hold my interest today, so my mind wandered. Ain't Covid grand?
i mean they also were transitioning cause in 95 they didn't have rodman harper was a shell of himself that playoffs for some reason so it wasn't the same team as in 93 or 96 also nick anderson unlike the 95 hornets could actually bother mj...that hornets team had the 5'2 bogues starting and no defense on the wings..who are they putting on mj?....dell curry?...david wingate?...like wtf?..good luck with that...no wonder why he torched them cause that hornets team had no sf besides the small hersey hawkins who had to stay with pippen or else mismatch problems so mj got to play against the 5'9 old ass michael adams 5'2 mugsey bogues 6'3 dell curry and 6'4 shitty career backup weak white slow defender david wingate...thats why he got 48 lol...like clearly they didn't have the matchup to bother him like nick was...mj could get 32 but not 42 ...
Do people underrate that Magic team? I've always said they were probably the most talented starting lineup 1-5 of that decade and should have been the team of the later 90s competing for those titles the Bulls won. It became a feature of 90s NBA that the older teams stuck around and the younger teams with tons of talent tended to flame out for a whole lot of reasons.
@@stevehuang2612 Yeah, it's a question I'd love to hear Shaq answer honestly: if MJ hadn't come back and the Magic had won that 96 title, would he still have signed with the Lakers? I'm sort of 50/50 on it. Part of me says he'd be stupid to leave a title team and wouldn't do it because of all the opportunities that would come his way, but the other part says he'd go to the Lakers anyway because it was the 90s and he wanted to be an overall star and celebrity and you had to be in a big market to do it.
gf4670 the magic 30 for 30 documentary made it pretty clear Shaq was jealous that Penny was overshadowing him in terms of star power and marketability. It’s still possible that magic wouldn’t pay Shaq the full amount and he’d still leave?
People underrate the 95 Rockets with Clyde and an older Cassell older better Horry better bench depth with Elie playing looser than in 94 and having Smith and 2 ok backups for Horry and Hakeem and being able to play 3 small guards with Clyde at pf and sf
It seems like you guys are contradicting yourselves. You can't say MJ was really good but he wasn't in basketball shape and he looked off so it should count as if Jordan was himself. You're stating exactly why it shouldn't count because MJ clearly didn't look like himself. MJs greatest attribute was his ability to close and he just didn't have the ability with no legs.
Kevin Briggins yeah, this is a conversation they’re all over the place! They make it seem like Jordan is just a scorer but he impacts defensively and offensively. Jordan is tired and legs are down and tons of turnovers and he’s not fully healthy. This video is so contradictory smh 🤦🏻♂️
It's not contradictory. The point they're making is that despite Michael not being 100% he was still really good overall based on his scoring averages, because he was still averaging over 30 ppg. It's not like he was missing all his shots and scoring only 15 points. The reason why they're saying it should count is because Bill is arguing that even if Michael was 100%, they would still lose to Orlando because it was a bad matchup for them especially in the paint.
Theo Chia that’s a hypothetical argument! All the things Jordan did wrong effected the team and just take away a few mistakes the bulls when those games so their argument doesn’t hold that much water. Healthy Jordan with a cohesive unit makes a team not a scoring Jordan who doesn’t have a feel for his teammates and starts turning the ball over and looks overly tired by the firth quarter. It’s just disingenuous to me and it shows how good the bulls were to gone back and sweep the magic the following year and reclaim the throne
Idk how even full strength Jordan gets this rep of being individually undefeatable in a team sport. We know this isn't true because his first years despite being awesome, Bulls don't have a .500 record his first 3years. Then he loses to the Pistons 3 straight years in playoffs. There's the idea he would've just won championships if he played with the 90s New Jersey Nets or something. He had the best team around him in Chicago. Best defensive small forward and power forward ever in Pippen and Rodman. Best euro and 6th man in Kukoc. Harper a good defender and averaged 20ppg 3times before becoming a 4th option on Chicago. Jordan 88-93 is playing on a goat level. 95-98 the second repeat is not as good, still best in that league but not playing at the highest level of any player ever. His team was just stacked. Lost in 95 because they lost their 3rd best player Grant and hadn't replaced him with arguably the best rebounder and defender of the modern era in Rodman and Ron Harper hardly played.
For all time 1st round teams eliminated: 55 win Houston Rockets with Tmac and Yao Ming having 20 game win streak during the regular season. But, they lost 4-2 to Utah while Mutombo replaced an injured Yao in the linuep .
What the hell Bill talking about Harper and his stats for. He was the 4th option, of course his numbers are Igoudala-ish. He obviously paid off for the Bulls in the long because of his defence and size.
calling ron harper a "bad signing" is probably the most misinformed thing said on this pod. even worse than calling jud buechler one of the bulls bigs. these two don't know any of the guys past the top 3 or 4 on any team.
One thing I’ve never seen mentioned on any of these podcasts… and maybe I’m totally wrong here… But how do these guys have so many archive films of full games that they can pull up and rewatch at any time
There goes Boston Bill again talking about all those Laker teams that lost, but let's also bring up the 83 eastern semis when your Celtics got SWEPT by the Bucks sir!!!
I was a HUGE Penny fan during the 90's, even bought his shoes & jersey. Anyway, a *healthy Penny was just as good as championship Kobe.* So this Magic team is basically the precursor of the championship Shaq-Kobe team. Actually, if you break it down, the Lakers 3-peat team is VERY similar to the composition of this Magic team. Personally, I think the biggest difference would be the Lakers being coached by a Phil Jackson who was already a very mature and experienced championship coach. And another big difference would be that Derek Fisher or Rick Fox or Robert Horry wouldn't have missed those 4 consecutive FT's that Nick Anderson missed in the Finals.
If anyone wants to see the McGurk effect in action, close your eyes and listen to what Russillo says at 15:28 and then rewind and listen to what he says while watching him say it.
Shaq was just a beast. The Bulls had no answer for even neutralizing young agile Shaq. Jordan played just fine, but the team around him was weak that year without good rim protection.
Penny was pass first and a tall PG. As said before I think Magic was more comparable. That Magic team was well constructed, they hit with their draft picks, even the ones before Shaq. They squandered the draft picks after Shaq left. I think teams that are tanking should do the Orlando model, try to get young role player starters then get the franchise guys.
Fatigue/injuries aside, they were pretty likely to win '94 with Jordan as that was a good team still like you said, and '95 also changes since Horace might stay if he's coming off a 4th chip and Jordan's still there. Even if he leaves, they would go after someone to fit better alongside Jordan/Pippen.
Your forgetting about A. Ron Harpers defense. That guy is a historically understated PG defender imo. I mean he could be really good defending any point guard you could throw at him. His was 6’6 and buff and could just bully smaller guys and hold his own with the bigger ones. And B. Harper worked really well in the triangle because he was an excellent post up PG. Back when PGs actually posted up. Jackson’s triangle at the time was all about getting the ball in the post to Jordan or Pippen and then spacing and cutting and rotating. Mostly because they had no big man to work in the post. Harper added that third post player. Even if he was a PG.
I’ve heard Harper used to be more of a SG but I don’t remember that far back. I remember him on the Bulls playing alongside MJ and Pippen, matched up against PGs and I remember him on the Lakers with Kobe and Rice or Fox or whoever, matched up against PGs.
The one thing about saying "Put any other MJ on this team..." is that we have to take any other MJ and also not allow the team to have prepared to have MJ during the offseason. If MJ stays in 94, Grant probably gets his money in Chicago and things move forward. If MJ comes back in the 95 offseason, Chicago swings a deal for someone, like they did with Rodman. They stood pat because Jordan didn't come back until 60+ games into the season, which brings us back to square one - they lost because this wasn't a true Jordan season. All roads come back to the same argument, in the end.
It’s a bit of a throw away. As you guys said the Bulls weren’t a good team. And Orlando was charged up and CONFIDENT. But they were never the same after the Finals sweep to Houston.
Idk if the all time great team talk is in this segment of the pod but that 2017 Warriors team was getting blown out by 25 at home against the Spurs before Kawhi went down and out for the series. Not saying they'd have lost to the Spurs but they certainly would have lost that game and maybe 1 or 2 more, and Kawhi might have done the unthinkable and led them to an improbable upset. Just a big what-if now but people forget about how big that injury was for that series outcome.
Great analysis by Bill Simmons. No matter if MJ was conditioned or not he was beaten soundly by the 1995 Magic. In 1996, Horace had a sore elbow coming in to the series and aggravated it in the middle of game 1 then Nick Anderson got injured in game 3. Those are 2 good defensive players lost by the Magic that is why they got swept. But if they were complete, the Magic might have force a game 6 and Bulls still wins.
MJ just didnt have that last 10%. He was always the mismatch when he was in basketball shape. The 🐐 was needed to beat this magic team, but mj was just normal great. After the game MJ says they should blow up thr united center🤣. MJ was 35 and 11 months when he retired
7:10 - I disagree with Bill here. Chicago still had BJ Armstrong who shot 43% from 3 in 1994-95. The Bulls as a team finished 8th in the league in 3PT%. They were capable of hitting the outside shot...and that's with Kukoc having an off year from behind the arc (only .313).
To Bill's point about the Magic probably beating the Bulls with any version of Jordan, what people forget is that 92 MJ, which arguably was him at his absolute peak, certainly well in his prime, was taken to 7 games by prime Pat Ewing and the Knicks that was more physical but less talented then 95 Orlando. So even if you take 92 MJ and put him on that 95 Bulls squad, they still have no answer for young Shaq and now they also have to deal with a young stud in Penny Hardaway. It goes to show how valuable the addition of Dennis Rodman was to there eventual 2nd 3-peat after this series.
I agree the worm was the key to beating them. Hid 14 rebounds a game in that series vs a way bigger shaq was what helped the bulls. Shaq was not a good rebounder for his hight and strenght
the disadvantage at power forward was big but any version of jordan loses this series? no way. classic example of why numbers dont tell the whole story. the game one last few possesions gave the magic the confidence to beat the bulls they steal game one they that series. beat version of mj wins this series. they win in 7 maybe they win tho.
You can argue either way forever. If you have prime MJ, he's possibly won four consecutive championships and going for a fifth one. There's mental and physical exhaustion, complacency, and injuries. You play that many games and eventually MJ or Scottie are going to get injured and miss playoff games.
@@allsystemsgo8678 o yes for sure under those circumstances that you highlighted but im just saying in a fantasy world where you put any version of mj in thats series . that is how i took the Simmons statement. So 92 mj put him there i think they win 93 91 96 a few others lol. not taking into account wear and tear and not saying if MJ never left or things like that.
Lol, goes to show you that baseball is hardly an athletic sport when one of the most athletic athlete of all time is out of shape after playing it for a while. The pitcher and catcher do 95% of work.
Tbh the problem was MJ wasn't in basketball shape so down the stretch he wasnt able to come through in the clutch and not having Horace grant really hurt them as well
If I could make a Bulls team out of all those teams: C: Horace Grant PF: Dennis Rodman SF: Toni Kukoc SG: Michael Jordan PG: Scottie Pippen Man that would of been a team right there. Loved me some Kukoc. He was my 4th favorite player behind MJ, Scottie, & Rodman.
Luc Longley got a lot better after playing with Michael for a few years and having him wimp him into the player, he needed to be to win the championships
Might be overestimating Pips ball handling skills. I mean he had good handles for a big guy. But ya know still a world of difference between his handle and like Magic’s or Penny’s.
You cant say mj was a bit off then say thats not why they lost man that series was closer than people make it seem if jordan was himself they win in 5 or 6
Two things for future videos or just a little side note. Magic were the first L of the 72-10 team. Also please watch game 1 1 of MJ 45 vs Reggie Miller and Miller was ready
They're wrong about that 2003 spurs team that beat the lakers. Tim Duncan was NOT alone. David Robinson was still on the team, steve kerr was a sharpshooter and bruce bowen was already a lockdown defender. Rookie manu and 2nd yr Tony Parker were also contributing already and they're both future hofers. I would say there are 4 hof players on this team. Duncan was NOT alone.
You just said dynasty's have a shelf life and then praise Duncan for his win against the defending 3peat champs and then the Pistons for the year after...
I disagree because if Jordan doesn’t retire, they replace Horace Grant quicker. They were in purgatory in 1995 and had Krystowiak at PF. If Jordan stays, they maybe go get Rodman immediately.
I don’t think the Bulls do a second 3-peat if they don’t lose to Orlando. Mike would have been like this is too easy and we never get 72-10 and never get Rodman. It was meant to be
Casuals dont realize it wasnt "jordan was rusty" as to why they lost. The real reason and the ONLY reason was Horace Grant and the Bulls had no replacement for an inside banger. Jordan nuthuggers needs to realize the Bulls lost to a better team in Orlando that year and I always felt Orlando was better throughout that series.
Usually this series is just ignored by MJ sycophants. He is the GOAT-but Ive always remembered how this series is just swept under the rug-like most of MJs low moments. And I have no dog in the fight-Im Denver fan. As awesome as he was-the legend of MJ has completely left the realm of reality with some people. Nobody remembers Pippens historic 2 reg seasons without MJ either-he led the Bulls in pts,rb,ast,stl,blk-which had almost never happened before-MJ never did it. Pippen was like 2nd in MVP I think both yrs-but if not for Olajuwon he wins an MVP. Poor Pippen-like end of his career if Portland doesnt melt down in game 7 vs Shaq/Kobe-Pippen gets ring #7,& while he wasnt the same guy anymore-he was 1 of the 2 or 3 best players-& most marquee dude on that team. If they beat the Lakers,& win the title-hes remembered differently.
Kobe shot A LOT!! And aaaaand never made MOST of them. Always been my biggest knock on his game. Was his FG% ever better than 500? I know for his career it wasn’t.
It drives me nuts that Bill tries to push this narrative that MJ was MJ statistically and we shouldn't throw this out. Sure, you don't have to throw it out, it counts, BUT the reason MJ was MJ was not just because of the eye-popping statistics, YOU HAD TO WATCH THE GAME! It's not just the stats, it's also the defense, the timing, the decision-making, and the crunch-time chops. Bill starts by saying "he didn't look like MJ" but then acts like since his *stats* didn't look bad, that there's no extenuating circumstances. I mean, he had a 3-peat, then another 3-peat, and in the middle was this one random series in which he made significantly out-of-character mistakes that lost them the series. So yeah, THAT is why we have an asterisk next to this series: his TIMING wasn't quite there. Even if the stats looked 98% or 99% of the way there... c'mon, Bill. You even talk about how uncharacteristic these late-game mistakes were. If that's any version of MJ from any of those 6 championship seasons, the Bulls win the series because he doesn't fumble away game 1 OR game 6, much less both. I don't mind the criticism, of course; be honest, that's fine. But it's Bill's odd waffling that bothers me. Saying "he was MJ, the stats tell us that" then also talking about how he made uncharacteristic mistakes... put the pieces together, Bill. WHY was his timing and decision-making not quite up to his standards? Oh, because he'd spent a year and a half away from the game? But then the next year he came into camp back in form and he reeled off another 3peat? Also, he says something about how Jordan should've won 6 and he won 6. I'd argue he "should've" won 8. I'd give him one in '90 had Scottie not had the migraine; without the migraine, the Bulls beat the Pistons, and almost certainly win the Championship. And I definitely think they would've won the title, beaten the Rockets, in '94. If I remember correctly, in '94 the Bulls still had Pippen, Horace, Paxson, BJ, Cartwright, Longley, Wennington, and Scott Williams, plus they added Kukoc and Kerr (one presumes they don't add Pete Myers). In '95 they added Harper, although they lost Horace and it was only the next season that they added Rodman. So I think prime MJ, with that supporting cast in '94, bolstered by the additions of Kukoc and Kerr while nothing was taken off the table, would've beaten Hakeem's Rockets. I'll only give Hakeem's Rockets the title in '95 against the Horace-less Bulls. (And even then... I wouldn't bet against MJ; he's the GOAT. But my point is that I believe you can make a convincing case for a '94 Bulls title, while the Rockets probably deserve the benefit of the doubt in '95.) It is what it is... but I'm just saying, we can make a valid argument that MJ was *unlucky* in "only" winning 6. (Although "unlucky" isn't exactly the right word for '94. But you get my point. I think.)
What about Cavs Warriors 2015? Don't you think Kyrie breaking his kneecap and Kevin Love dislocating his shoulder had anything to do with their loss that year?
Bulls lacked the athletic 4 they always had in Horace. Plus Horace was maniacally wanting to beat MJ. Pippen had to bring up the ball. He was their best passer AND best rebounder. To much to ask against a stacked Orlando unit.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Man. lemme speak for those guys here of a certain age in the comments watching this. The first 25 min of bill and ryen reminiscing on these obscure playoff series is pure basketball nirvana.
if you know, YOU KNOW!!
i agree ,except for the obscure part :D
Damn straight
its funny how having horrace grant and the bulls not having rodman is a clear reasons why the magic were better in 96 grant got hurt in game 1..changed the series...it would of gone 6 if he was healthy
@@razkable underrated fact. Horace and Nick got injured changed the whole series
So happy they did this series. That Magic team was my favorite historic team to play with on 2K for a few years. Penny, Shaq, Grant, Anderson, Scott and Shaw, Royal and Bowie off the bench. They had shooting, slashing, inside and perimeter D. Such a good team.
Loved the random segway on other series too. That 07 Mavs/Warrriors will always be one of my favorite memories in basketball. The "We Believe" squad in the Oracle was different level of hype. Baron over AK47 still gives me chills.
Please bring back all or more of these. These got us through some tough times when there was nothing else. Fun now to relisten.
As someone who started watching the NBA in the late 2010's, born in 1993 Barkley is one of my favs and these deep dives are awesome for context of the series
Just watched the Last Dance and had to cringe at that last KJ miss. He was pretty terrible that whole series. If dude played up to his A game, I think Phoenix wins that series. Chicago was running on fumes at that point. You can see how hard it is to threepeat, maybe harder now, hell those Warriors' bodies just fell apart at the end.
@@willzsportscards the Warriors lost West. He was such a great GM. After he left their roster moves suffered.
In Chicago in 1996, Horace Grant was public enemy #1. In this series, he was like a prototype stretch 4, or at least the 1995 version of what a stretch 4 is. I felt like he couldn't miss an open 16-footer, and the Bulls conceded a lot of open jumpers because of all the attention Shaq was commanding down low. It wasn't just that he averaged 20 ppg in the first five games, but was also shooting 70%. So he absolutely killed Chicago, and to add insult to injury, the Magic carried him off the court on their shoulders, making all of us Bulls fans hate him for a while.
Can we have a montage of Ryen and Bill's Marv Albert impersonations or a pod about Marv. C'mon! We all love him no matter what
2:01 THANK YOU SO MUCH!! That 1995 Bulls team were terrible, absolutely terrible. They were 23-25 at the All Star Break and 34-31 when Michael announced his return, the only reason people thought they could win was because they finished the season with a 13-4 run at 47-35 with Jordan
Watching this game, MJ was playing with the same style as in the '93 playoffs. You can tell his timing was off with his teammates, he didn't have his basketball legs, and some of his athletic ability has eroded. He was 32 years old during this series. MJ ran out of gas by the 4th quarter after slashing to the hoop the whole game. And it's why he worked on his post game and fadeaway jumper in the following summer.
So all in all, the Magic were in a great rhythm and knew who they were as a team. The Bulls were still trying to figure things out in Game 6.
I forgot how fun this '95 Bulls squad was with B.J. at the point and Toni playing 4 along with MJ and Scottie on the wings. Lots of ball movement and an up-tempo style of offense. The Bulls definitely were missing Horace's presence on the boards and being the 3rd guy in the Doberman pressure defense.
The next year, they put Harp in the starting lineup and he ended up being the 3rd guy in the press with his length and athleticism. He did a pretty good job of guarding the Glove, Stockton and Mark Jackson in the playoffs.
And they traded for Rodman who brought the rebounding and interior physical play. Outside of head-butting a ref and getting suspended, Rodman brought everything the Bulls were hoping for in '96.
He got locked up its ok
Watching Russillo gather his thoughts at 4:19 is pretty intense.
Penny was special before his injuries
Kobe before Kobe in Shaq’s words
@@PhilTalksSports He wasn't though. He was more like Magic 2.0
@@PhilTalksSports Shaq did admit to that
Penny is my number one player I wish I could see if he wouldve never got seriously injured. His career wouldve been so amazing.
Facts
Quick note: MJ did average 31ppg in this series, but the advanced stats show that both his efficiency and turnovers were way below his normal level. His advanced stats suggest that 95 MJ is actually the 2nd worse version of MJ's playoff career. That doesn't mean with prime MJ they win, but a deepdive DOES show that it was not a great version of MJ.
Yeah, he shot OK, but he wasn't making the team better like he did every other postseason of his career.
Look at his playoff stats, other than an extra turnover a game, he has basically identical numbers to the next 3 years, and in many cases better numbers.
@@mrmacross Exactly, his numbers for the series are good but deceiving. He was just a little bit off.
@@jdsilvestri Depends on how advanced you go on the stats. His base stats are great, but his WS/48, OBPM, PER are among the worst of his career. Basically those numbers show is overall impact weren't as strong as the first 3-peat or 2nd 3-peat.
Peripherally, it may look like he was still playing well, but he had no stamina and was getting outplayed by the Magic guards regularly.
34:00 "They just had Shaq and four shooters" ??? Penny was a superstar, a faster version of Magic Johsnon, a pre Lebron! ...WTF is Bill talking about?
Detroit Grant Hill was like that too.
I remember the Magic celebrating by picking up Horace Grant and parading him around. Jordan did not appreciate that, next year they destroyed the Magic 4-0!
You cant knock them for that. They are the 1 out of 7 that beat the goat in his championship years.
Had nothing to do with imptoving their rebounding and defense with Rodman, huh?
Definitely jotted that down for the following year. Took it personal.
Bull didn't have Horace and Magic did, that was the difference. Also why the Bulls weren't anywhere as good that season.
exactly. Losing Grant was a huge loss, and it was made even worse by the fact that they also lost Cartwright. While Longley ended up being a solid replacement for Cartwright and an important piece in the second 3peat, he was pretty underwhelming in '95. Additionally, the Bulls failed to adequately replace Grant until '96. Their bigs in '95 were essentially Longley, Perdue, Wennington, Simpkins, Foster, and Blount. Apart from Kukoc when he played at the 4 and Perdue (who was okay, averaging 8 and 7), they got zero production from their bigs. It was quite possibly the worst frontcourt in the league.
Yes same thing actually happened in 1996. Bulls have rodman and Horace got injured in gamae 1 and lost him the whole ECF series and also why the Magic got swept.
Paul Jenkins Not only that, but the Bulls also lost Scott Williams in free agency. Williams was a huge low post defender/rebounder/energy guy for them. They basically had zero inside presence losing both Grant and Williams.
So you mean MJ needed good teammates?!
🙄
Duncan beat the lakers in 99 also. In only his 2nd season!!!! This is Shaq in his 6th season and Kobe’s 3rd. He is the most underrated player in NBA history!
99 was Kobes first year starting. He wasnt Kobe yet. Kobes first real Kobe season is 2000-2001.
Yeah, also had Robinson though.
Kobe just started that year and their coach sucked. Duncan had the benefit of a consistent system with Popovich from the beginning. Plus they never won back to back titles, the toughest to accomplish. Also, there were years where the Lakers just annihilated them in the playoffs. In the end both Kobe and Duncan had 5 rings. But the Spurs never ever reached the peaks the Lakers did. End story, drop mic
@@fkillahduncan ended kobe and shaq in 03
@@razkable oh yea? I never knew that, what a smart point you made. So then tell me, what about 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, and 2010? Who won those years? Hmm….
Omfg THANK YOU BILL AND RYAN. FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE BRINGS IT UP
Ok there are a few things that need to be corrected, for the record, especially considering ryen Russillo and Bill Simmons writing off Jordan's rust upon returning from baseball.
32.3pts, 6.3reb, 5.9ast, 2.7stl, 1.0blk, 3.0TOV, 51.6% FG, 84.6% FT - 667 games, Jordan's career before returning to basketball in '95
26.9pts, 6.9reb, 5.3ast, 1.8stl, 0.8blk, 2.1TOV, 41.1% FG, 80.1% FT - 17 games, Jordan's '95 season
What do you notice? He's scoring far less and his FG% is 10pts lower. Even his FT% is significantly lower than his career average. For those of us who watched the games, it was repeatedly stated not only by the announcers but the players that Jordan didn't look the same even though he had some explosive games here and there. There was an inconsistency to it.
So let's look at the playoffs now.
34.7pts, 6.7reb, 6.6ast, 2.3stl, 1.0blk, 3.3TOV, 50.1% FG, 83.4% FT - 111 games, Jordan's playoff career before returning to basketball in '95
31.5pts, 6.5reb, 4.5ast, 2.3stl, 1.4blk, 4.1TOV, 48.4% FG, 81.0% FT - 10 games, Jordan's '95 playoffs
PTS, AST, FG, FT are all noticeably down and TOV are noticeably up. Still phenomenal numbers for any other player, but the point remains that Jordan wasn't Jordan, which is what *everyone* noticed. Glossing over that as if Jordan wasn't rusty is ludicrous especially when you listen to the old broadcasts and to what players had to say back then.
Bird got that 1983 sweep by the Bucks that nobody talks about.
The Bulls were also too small for Orlando in the backcourt. The Bulls rebuilt their 96 team to play against/copy Magic. They signed Rodman to deal with Horace Grant and help on Shaq and moved Ron Harper into the PG slot to matchup with Penny's height. Phil fell in love with the Magic team's height and decided to copy it with Pippen and Jordan handling the ball and not using a true small PG like Kerr most of the time. The Magic played a big part in the Bulls second threepeat.
I loved that Magic team. Wish they could of kept it together longer. Shaq and Penny were awesome. Being a LSU fan Shaq was my guy, but after Jordan Penny was my 2nd favorite guard. But after Jordan, Kobe is my 2nd favorite player of all time. Him and Shaq made me a Lakers fan when I hated them previously. And now I’m back hating them again cause the Pels are my team and I want them good picks. I hope AD leaves that would so fucking awesome
C: Shaq
PF: Grant
SF: Royal, Scott
SG: Anderson, Bowie
PG: Penny, Shaw
Getting Horace Grant from Chicago was a great move. He fit perfect with Shaq. Wasn’t a huge Donald Royal fan cause Dennis Scott was my guy. Speaking of Scott his shooting off the bench was insane and the vet point guard in B Shaw to help Penny out. Anthony Bowie would be a nice 8th guy for most teams. Loved that Magic team
Wtf are you talking about
@@thedarkfrost2351 exactly what is written
Also, the Bulls could have won games 1 and 6 with a locked-in '93 MJ.
I love how they started the podcast essentially hating on MJ and suggesting everything was on the level and they just lost, and then 13 mins later proceed to detail that this Bulls team was basically a bunch of stiffs with Pippen and Kukoc until out-of-basketball-shape MJ returned in the middle of the year (AND they pointed out how dead tired he looked in this game BECAUSE HE WAS OUT OF BASKETBALL SHAPE!!)
A bunch of stiffs? Lol no. They had Pippen, the best Euro player at the time (Kukoc), Armstrong, Ron Harper, and Jordan. They were still an All-Star team that year and just added to it with Rodman the next year.
Mj was in baseball shape, not basketball. They go over exactly this series in episode 8. Youre talkin turnovers, airballs, and defense. And he still put up numbers
Joseph Bentley kukoc is not better than durk. He’s closer to stojakovic
@@user-kx5pd4jo3t he said at the time.
Trulysarcastic44 I read it as of all time not at the time.lmaooo my fault
I love these series, do more please!!! Rewatch old school games bulls or not
2010 and 2011 LeBron didnt have a post game. James didn't have enough ways to score in the Halfcourt. He knows he didnt make impactful plays in the game. More arguments against LeBron unfortunately is 2006 team USA got a bronze in the world championship with LJ as their best player.
And his hair
@@20marvelman c'mon lol
The only knock you need against Lebron is his finals record,to get that close with stacked teams and lose is weak. The only ones I'd let go is the Durant warriors they don't count because they were cheating.
Wrong the bronze medal was won in 2004, not 2006. Wade, Melo, and Bron were on that team. They lost because Larry Brown didn’t let those 3 play more than 10 mins. a game, and the fact that the players only met each other 2 weeks priority to the Olympics
@@johnnyblingg that's a great point. Brown was messing up coaching at that time. But I still believe LJ with a post game would have been excellent there. And in 2006 in the world games they lost to Greece. Also bad coaching but still no post game from LJ. he gets that post game he probably wins and doesn't even go to Miami.
Great series keep posting series like theses
MJ came back with 17 games left in season. Had no training camp. Wasn’t in basketball shape. He had a couple of great games because he’s MJ but his rhythm was off and the team was completely different. No chemistry. Next year he had a full training camp started training early summer and got his game back and the rest is history.
Yeah, Rodman was in integral piece but people overblow it. Rodman's win shares were the lowest of the starters in 96 and really the second lowest of the main rotation guys except Longley. I get a lot of the intangibles can't be conveyed in the stats, but the main difference overall was that same group of mediocre role players in 95 got a full offseason and training camp of maniac MJ beating their asses every day in practice and forcing them to be the best they could.
Yeah, this and 94 was a weird in between transition year from the first threepeat Bulls and next threepeat. The Rodman trade opened everything up. Kukoc could now play against second units, You can shuffle Rodman defensively especially against big guys, which left less tough assignments for Longley, who was a decent scorer at center who you didn't have to cringe to give touches.
Word he literally shot 41 percent in those 17 games
MJ was into training coming in before the he came back in March dummy. No athlete will come back without training camp especially coming from a long layoff. And this was proven by Kukoc when he got interviewed and MJ was practicing with them months before coming in but it was not made public.
@@dobz746 it doesn't matter training for baseball is completely different than basketball and with only 17 games left in the season that's a lot to ask to make up for
If Jordan hadn’t left I don’t think they would have lost Horace Grant or they would have found someone to replace him. Having Jordan there totally changes wether a player leaves the team or signing a free agent. So I don’t think you can look at it and just say Jordan lost that series even if he didn’t retire. Things would have been different. But it worked out cause I don’t think they would have won a second threepeat with Grant instead of Rodman and it gave Jordan huge motivation losing to Orlando.
Why don’t you think they would’ve won a three peat with Horace? The first three peat was with Him and those were honestly the better teams
@Aubrey Pender Completely disagree. Remove MJ and Scottie from the equation. Are You saying Horace is better than Rodman or Toni Kukoc? Definitely not. Bill Cartwright better than Luc Longley. Nope. Maybe Jon Paxson/BJ Armstrong are better than Steve Kerr. But not better than Kerr/Ron Harper. Thoughts?
A Key Factor from Game 1 of this series is MJ being loose with his handle when he passed Nick Anderson in the backcourt b/c he thought he was going to get fouled in that situation since there was 18 secs left. His teammates should of communicated with him by talking on D that Nick was coming from behind. MJ tied a career high with 8 turnovers in Game 1 which is not like him to do. He did have a good series but the turnovers in key moments, not controlling the defensive boards as a team & Phil's strategy of letting Horace Grant beat them bite them in the ass, Horace had a great series. The Magic team earned this series WIN. MJ didn't lose this series he learned a lesson & came back stronger & more hungry the next 3 season's.
He definitely lost that series.
Nailed this piece of forgotten history!
I just noticed the ザ・ドロッパーズ poster. (The Droppers? Best guess on the katakana transliteration.) So, obviously, it's a basketball movie. Googled it, and it's "Fast Break" with ガブリエル・カプラン ? Even after 30 years in Japan I can't quite figure out why they name some foreign movies/TV shows the way they do. Also, why does he have the Japanese poster? Sorry, the conversation couldn't hold my interest today, so my mind wandered. Ain't Covid grand?
They had holes but....more than anything they were not a cohesive unit. No chemistry at this point.
No power forward was the hole. Next season Rodman comes in. Rematch Horace Grant gets hurt gm 1. Boom 💥 of they go to a championship!
i mean they also were transitioning cause in 95 they didn't have rodman harper was a shell of himself that playoffs for some reason so it wasn't the same team as in 93 or 96 also nick anderson unlike the 95 hornets could actually bother mj...that hornets team had the 5'2 bogues starting and no defense on the wings..who are they putting on mj?....dell curry?...david wingate?...like wtf?..good luck with that...no wonder why he torched them cause that hornets team had no sf besides the small hersey hawkins who had to stay with pippen or else mismatch problems so mj got to play against the 5'9 old ass michael adams 5'2 mugsey bogues 6'3 dell curry and 6'4 shitty career backup weak white slow defender david wingate...thats why he got 48 lol...like clearly they didn't have the matchup to bother him like nick was...mj could get 32 but not 42 ...
Do people underrate that Magic team? I've always said they were probably the most talented starting lineup 1-5 of that decade and should have been the team of the later 90s competing for those titles the Bulls won. It became a feature of 90s NBA that the older teams stuck around and the younger teams with tons of talent tended to flame out for a whole lot of reasons.
gf4670 absolutely. But Shaq bailed and the injuries started adding up for Penny. Sad ending for that franchise
Steve Huang the magic didn’t want to give shaq the bag
@@stevehuang2612 Yeah, it's a question I'd love to hear Shaq answer honestly: if MJ hadn't come back and the Magic had won that 96 title, would he still have signed with the Lakers?
I'm sort of 50/50 on it. Part of me says he'd be stupid to leave a title team and wouldn't do it because of all the opportunities that would come his way, but the other part says he'd go to the Lakers anyway because it was the 90s and he wanted to be an overall star and celebrity and you had to be in a big market to do it.
gf4670 the magic 30 for 30 documentary made it pretty clear Shaq was jealous that Penny was overshadowing him in terms of star power and marketability. It’s still possible that magic wouldn’t pay Shaq the full amount and he’d still leave?
People underrate the 95 Rockets with Clyde and an older Cassell older better Horry better bench depth with Elie playing looser than in 94 and having Smith and 2 ok backups for Horry and Hakeem and being able to play 3 small guards with Clyde at pf and sf
C'mon, during the 2nd 3-peat, the Bulls were starting Harper-MJ-Pippen at 1-2-3. So why did you say they could not play Harper with MJ and Pippen??
It seems like you guys are contradicting yourselves. You can't say MJ was really good but he wasn't in basketball shape and he looked off so it should count as if Jordan was himself. You're stating exactly why it shouldn't count because MJ clearly didn't look like himself. MJs greatest attribute was his ability to close and he just didn't have the ability with no legs.
Kevin Briggins yeah, this is a conversation they’re all over the place! They make it seem like Jordan is just a scorer but he impacts defensively and offensively. Jordan is tired and legs are down and tons of turnovers and he’s not fully healthy. This video is so contradictory smh 🤦🏻♂️
They're really making the point that Orlando was a better team and that's what is most forgotten about.
It's not contradictory. The point they're making is that despite Michael not being 100% he was still really good overall based on his scoring averages, because he was still averaging over 30 ppg. It's not like he was missing all his shots and scoring only 15 points. The reason why they're saying it should count is because Bill is arguing that even if Michael was 100%, they would still lose to Orlando because it was a bad matchup for them especially in the paint.
Theo Chia that’s a hypothetical argument! All the things Jordan did wrong effected the team and just take away a few mistakes the bulls when those games so their argument doesn’t hold that much water. Healthy Jordan with a cohesive unit makes a team not a scoring Jordan who doesn’t have a feel for his teammates and starts turning the ball over and looks overly tired by the firth quarter. It’s just disingenuous to me and it shows how good the bulls were to gone back and sweep the magic the following year and reclaim the throne
Idk how even full strength Jordan gets this rep of being individually undefeatable in a team sport. We know this isn't true because his first years despite being awesome, Bulls don't have a .500 record his first 3years. Then he loses to the Pistons 3 straight years in playoffs. There's the idea he would've just won championships if he played with the 90s New Jersey Nets or something. He had the best team around him in Chicago. Best defensive small forward and power forward ever in Pippen and Rodman. Best euro and 6th man in Kukoc. Harper a good defender and averaged 20ppg 3times before becoming a 4th option on Chicago. Jordan 88-93 is playing on a goat level. 95-98 the second repeat is not as good, still best in that league but not playing at the highest level of any player ever. His team was just stacked. Lost in 95 because they lost their 3rd best player Grant and hadn't replaced him with arguably the best rebounder and defender of the modern era in Rodman and Ron Harper hardly played.
For all time 1st round teams eliminated:
55 win Houston Rockets with Tmac and Yao Ming having 20 game win streak during the regular season. But, they lost 4-2 to Utah while Mutombo replaced an injured Yao in the linuep .
What the hell Bill talking about Harper and his stats for.
He was the 4th option, of course his numbers are Igoudala-ish.
He obviously paid off for the Bulls in the long because of his defence and size.
calling ron harper a "bad signing" is probably the most misinformed thing said on this pod. even worse than calling jud buechler one of the bulls bigs. these two don't know any of the guys past the top 3 or 4 on any team.
@@munchb4snor457 you think Bill doing this on purpose for some reason?
*He was 32 and retired again when he was 35, not 31 and 34
(Quick correction on Ryen R's comments at the conclusion of this)
Bring back the redrafts, those were great
One thing I’ve never seen mentioned on any of these podcasts… and maybe I’m totally wrong here…
But how do these guys have so many archive films of full games that they can pull up and rewatch at any time
There goes Boston Bill again talking about all those Laker teams that lost, but let's also bring up the 83 eastern semis when your Celtics got SWEPT by the Bucks sir!!!
I was a HUGE Penny fan during the 90's, even bought his shoes & jersey. Anyway, a *healthy Penny was just as good as championship Kobe.* So this Magic team is basically the precursor of the championship Shaq-Kobe team. Actually, if you break it down, the Lakers 3-peat team is VERY similar to the composition of this Magic team. Personally, I think the biggest difference would be the Lakers being coached by a Phil Jackson who was already a very mature and experienced championship coach. And another big difference would be that Derek Fisher or Rick Fox or Robert Horry wouldn't have missed those 4 consecutive FT's that Nick Anderson missed in the Finals.
If anyone wants to see the McGurk effect in action, close your eyes and listen to what Russillo says at 15:28 and then rewind and listen to what he says while watching him say it.
Shaq was just a beast. The Bulls had no answer for even neutralizing young agile Shaq. Jordan played just fine, but the team around him was weak that year without good rim protection.
I love the MJ Last Dance coverage keep it coming please
Penny would have been comparable to Kobe barring injuries
Manga Dolo I don’t know about all that
Yeah Anfernee was better as a team player.
I think a better comp is Magic, tbh. He was like a Ben Simmons that could shoot.
@Daniel Ridore Kobe was a great Defender Anfernee could get after it too.
Penny was pass first and a tall PG. As said before I think Magic was more comparable. That Magic team was well constructed, they hit with their draft picks, even the ones before Shaq. They squandered the draft picks after Shaq left. I think teams that are tanking should do the Orlando model, try to get young role player starters then get the franchise guys.
Fatigue/injuries aside, they were pretty likely to win '94 with Jordan as that was a good team still like you said, and '95 also changes since Horace might stay if he's coming off a 4th chip and Jordan's still there. Even if he leaves, they would go after someone to fit better alongside Jordan/Pippen.
Jordan was mentally exhausted after the third ring he wouldn't have won unless he takes that break from the game.
Your forgetting about A. Ron Harpers defense. That guy is a historically understated PG defender imo. I mean he could be really good defending any point guard you could throw at him. His was 6’6 and buff and could just bully smaller guys and hold his own with the bigger ones.
And B. Harper worked really well in the triangle because he was an excellent post up PG. Back when PGs actually posted up. Jackson’s triangle at the time was all about getting the ball in the post to Jordan or Pippen and then spacing and cutting and rotating. Mostly because they had no big man to work in the post. Harper added that third post player. Even if he was a PG.
And Harper was a PG because he was matched up against other PGs. The Bulls didn’t need a ball handling PG. They had Jordan.
I’ve heard Harper used to be more of a SG but I don’t remember that far back. I remember him on the Bulls playing alongside MJ and Pippen, matched up against PGs and I remember him on the Lakers with Kobe and Rice or Fox or whoever, matched up against PGs.
The one thing about saying "Put any other MJ on this team..." is that we have to take any other MJ and also not allow the team to have prepared to have MJ during the offseason. If MJ stays in 94, Grant probably gets his money in Chicago and things move forward. If MJ comes back in the 95 offseason, Chicago swings a deal for someone, like they did with Rodman. They stood pat because Jordan didn't come back until 60+ games into the season, which brings us back to square one - they lost because this wasn't a true Jordan season. All roads come back to the same argument, in the end.
It’s a bit of a throw away. As you guys said the Bulls weren’t a good team. And Orlando was charged up and CONFIDENT. But they were never the same after the Finals sweep to Houston.
i hope when everything is back to normal ya'll continue to breakdown retro games.
what they said is, BJ Armstrong had mention it already, MJ is not playing anymore, he is just closing. At this point, the closing is not yet there...
Idk if the all time great team talk is in this segment of the pod but that 2017 Warriors team was getting blown out by 25 at home against the Spurs before Kawhi went down and out for the series. Not saying they'd have lost to the Spurs but they certainly would have lost that game and maybe 1 or 2 more, and Kawhi might have done the unthinkable and led them to an improbable upset. Just a big what-if now but people forget about how big that injury was for that series outcome.
Lol again wIth this. It was still the 3rd quarter. Calm down
Jordan wasnt as sharp in that series if he had been i think they beat orlando
Excuses excuses.
Great analysis by Bill Simmons. No matter if MJ was conditioned or not he was beaten soundly by the 1995 Magic. In 1996, Horace had a sore elbow coming in to the series and aggravated it in the middle of game 1 then Nick Anderson got injured in game 3. Those are 2 good defensive players lost by the Magic that is why they got swept. But if they were complete, the Magic might have force a game 6 and Bulls still wins.
MJ just didnt have that last 10%. He was always the mismatch when he was in basketball shape. The 🐐 was needed to beat this magic team, but mj was just normal great. After the game MJ says they should blow up thr united center🤣. MJ was 35 and 11 months when he retired
When the beat orlando horac grance got both injured in the first game
7:10 - I disagree with Bill here. Chicago still had BJ Armstrong who shot 43% from 3 in 1994-95. The Bulls as a team finished 8th in the league in 3PT%. They were capable of hitting the outside shot...and that's with Kukoc having an off year from behind the arc (only .313).
To Bill's point about the Magic probably beating the Bulls with any version of Jordan, what people forget is that 92 MJ, which arguably was him at his absolute peak, certainly well in his prime, was taken to 7 games by prime Pat Ewing and the Knicks that was more physical but less talented then 95 Orlando. So even if you take 92 MJ and put him on that 95 Bulls squad, they still have no answer for young Shaq and now they also have to deal with a young stud in Penny Hardaway. It goes to show how valuable the addition of Dennis Rodman was to there eventual 2nd 3-peat after this series.
I agree the worm was the key to beating them. Hid 14 rebounds a game in that series vs a way bigger shaq was what helped the bulls. Shaq was not a good rebounder for his hight and strenght
Watched this already
the disadvantage at power forward was big but any version of jordan loses this series? no way. classic example of why numbers dont tell the whole story. the game one last few
possesions gave the magic the confidence to beat the bulls they steal game one they that series. beat version of mj wins this series. they win in 7 maybe they win tho.
You can argue either way forever. If you have prime MJ, he's possibly won four consecutive championships and going for a fifth one. There's mental and physical exhaustion, complacency, and injuries. You play that many games and eventually MJ or Scottie are going to get injured and miss playoff games.
@@allsystemsgo8678 o yes for sure under those circumstances that you highlighted
but im just saying in a fantasy world where you put any version of mj in thats series . that is how i took the Simmons statement. So 92 mj put him there i think they win 93 91 96 a few others lol. not taking into account wear and tear and not saying if MJ never left or things like that.
Bill "the other piece of this" Simmons.
He was 35 when he retired in 98
Lol, goes to show you that baseball is hardly an athletic sport when one of the most athletic athlete of all time is out of shape after playing it for a while. The pitcher and catcher do 95% of work.
0:30 what is bill talking about, wasn't 6-6 just for the finals?
Speakin the truth
Tbh the problem was MJ wasn't in basketball shape so down the stretch he wasnt able to come through in the clutch and not having Horace grant really hurt them as well
If I could make a Bulls team out of all those teams:
C: Horace Grant
PF: Dennis Rodman
SF: Toni Kukoc
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Scottie Pippen
Man that would of been a team right there. Loved me some Kukoc. He was my 4th favorite player behind MJ, Scottie, & Rodman.
Luc Longley got a lot better after playing with Michael for a few years and having him wimp him into the player, he needed to be to win the championships
Imagine the 1995 bulls could’ve been PG: Scottie Pippen SG: Michael Jordan SF: Toni Kukoc PF: Horace Grant C: Luc Longley
Ethan Ennis Or Not. It’s always better to add an “IMO” of some sort , no one thinks you are actually Nostradamus.
Might be overestimating Pips ball handling skills. I mean he had good handles for a big guy. But ya know still a world of difference between his handle and like Magic’s or Penny’s.
The '95 Magic was low key a superteam in hindsight
💯
You guys are good craic - as we say in Ireland :))
Bill, if he wasn't in basket ball shape - would he have made those mistakes? If he hadn't left - the team would have been different.
This is the same man that said Dennis Rodman wasn't exciting
Rodman was exciting on the Pistons. On the Bulls, he was basically a child in a grown man's body.
We need more discussion on Russillo's lighting fixture game please.
You cant say mj was a bit off then say thats not why they lost man that series was closer than people make it seem if jordan was himself they win in 5 or 6
Two things for future videos or just a little side note. Magic were the first L of the 72-10 team. Also please watch game 1 1 of MJ 45 vs Reggie Miller and Miller was ready
They're wrong about that 2003 spurs team that beat the lakers. Tim Duncan was NOT alone. David Robinson was still on the team, steve kerr was a sharpshooter and bruce bowen was already a lockdown defender. Rookie manu and 2nd yr Tony Parker were also contributing already and they're both future hofers. I would say there are 4 hof players on this team. Duncan was NOT alone.
You just said dynasty's have a shelf life and then praise Duncan for his win against the defending 3peat champs and then the Pistons for the year after...
I disagree because if Jordan doesn’t retire, they replace Horace Grant quicker. They were in purgatory in 1995 and had Krystowiak at PF. If Jordan stays, they maybe go get Rodman immediately.
I don’t think the Bulls do a second 3-peat if they don’t lose to Orlando. Mike would have been like this is too easy and we never get 72-10 and never get Rodman. It was meant to be
Casuals dont realize it wasnt "jordan was rusty" as to why they lost. The real reason and the ONLY reason was Horace Grant and the Bulls had no replacement for an inside banger. Jordan nuthuggers needs to realize the Bulls lost to a better team in Orlando that year and I always felt Orlando was better throughout that series.
Reinsdorph doing a deal with a player minus his agent. Sneaky😈🤣
Shaq also delayed his surgery until the start of the season. If he had been in Shape. The Lakers have home court and they would have won.
He decided that its company time🤣🤣
@@chiecheung25 that still hurts. RIP to my eternal hero Kobe Bryant.
Long live the ringer.....,not Spotify
2007 finals bron was awful as well..jordan never had that many awful playoff series
Another one? Nice
05 Redraft?
I heard that in 2004 they tried to single team Shaq so that Kobe would shoot to try and match Shaq.
04 pistons was maybe best D team I ever saw together with 91, 96 bulls . Kb8 just couldn't get past prince with fro and sheed behind him.
Pistons strategy was...let Shaquille get his numbers and lock everyone else up. Kobe didn't shoot well that series. Game 1 was his best game.
Kukoks wasn’t a good 3pt shooter? Pip?
Usually this series is just ignored by MJ sycophants. He is the GOAT-but Ive always remembered how this series is just swept under the rug-like most of MJs low moments. And I have no dog in the fight-Im Denver fan. As awesome as he was-the legend of MJ has completely left the realm of reality with some people.
Nobody remembers Pippens historic 2 reg seasons without MJ either-he led the Bulls in pts,rb,ast,stl,blk-which had almost never happened before-MJ never did it. Pippen was like 2nd in MVP I think both yrs-but if not for Olajuwon he wins an MVP.
Poor Pippen-like end of his career if Portland doesnt melt down in game 7 vs Shaq/Kobe-Pippen gets ring #7,& while he wasnt the same guy anymore-he was 1 of the 2 or 3 best players-& most marquee dude on that team. If they beat the Lakers,& win the title-hes remembered differently.
Makes Russell's 8 peat even more impressive (he also won back to back HS and College championships).
Bill stands corrected! That's like thirt-on Jr.Smith saying he does get crazy sometimes
If Scott Williams would have re signed in 94 Bulls would have won
Lynn Reed LOL
Kobe shot A LOT!! And aaaaand never made MOST of them. Always been my biggest knock on his game. Was his FG% ever better than 500? I know for his career it wasn’t.
I don't know how the series would've turned out, but Bulls would not drop game 1 with typical MJ
35:52 I have to agree with Billl. Like that was embarrassing
It drives me nuts that Bill tries to push this narrative that MJ was MJ statistically and we shouldn't throw this out. Sure, you don't have to throw it out, it counts, BUT the reason MJ was MJ was not just because of the eye-popping statistics, YOU HAD TO WATCH THE GAME! It's not just the stats, it's also the defense, the timing, the decision-making, and the crunch-time chops.
Bill starts by saying "he didn't look like MJ" but then acts like since his *stats* didn't look bad, that there's no extenuating circumstances. I mean, he had a 3-peat, then another 3-peat, and in the middle was this one random series in which he made significantly out-of-character mistakes that lost them the series. So yeah, THAT is why we have an asterisk next to this series: his TIMING wasn't quite there. Even if the stats looked 98% or 99% of the way there... c'mon, Bill. You even talk about how uncharacteristic these late-game mistakes were. If that's any version of MJ from any of those 6 championship seasons, the Bulls win the series because he doesn't fumble away game 1 OR game 6, much less both.
I don't mind the criticism, of course; be honest, that's fine. But it's Bill's odd waffling that bothers me. Saying "he was MJ, the stats tell us that" then also talking about how he made uncharacteristic mistakes... put the pieces together, Bill. WHY was his timing and decision-making not quite up to his standards? Oh, because he'd spent a year and a half away from the game? But then the next year he came into camp back in form and he reeled off another 3peat?
Also, he says something about how Jordan should've won 6 and he won 6. I'd argue he "should've" won 8. I'd give him one in '90 had Scottie not had the migraine; without the migraine, the Bulls beat the Pistons, and almost certainly win the Championship.
And I definitely think they would've won the title, beaten the Rockets, in '94. If I remember correctly, in '94 the Bulls still had Pippen, Horace, Paxson, BJ, Cartwright, Longley, Wennington, and Scott Williams, plus they added Kukoc and Kerr (one presumes they don't add Pete Myers). In '95 they added Harper, although they lost Horace and it was only the next season that they added Rodman. So I think prime MJ, with that supporting cast in '94, bolstered by the additions of Kukoc and Kerr while nothing was taken off the table, would've beaten Hakeem's Rockets. I'll only give Hakeem's Rockets the title in '95 against the Horace-less Bulls. (And even then... I wouldn't bet against MJ; he's the GOAT. But my point is that I believe you can make a convincing case for a '94 Bulls title, while the Rockets probably deserve the benefit of the doubt in '95.)
It is what it is... but I'm just saying, we can make a valid argument that MJ was *unlucky* in "only" winning 6. (Although "unlucky" isn't exactly the right word for '94. But you get my point. I think.)
What about Cavs Warriors 2015? Don't you think Kyrie breaking his kneecap and Kevin Love dislocating his shoulder had anything to do with their loss that year?
That 95' team would have done better in todays style of play.
Bulls lacked the athletic 4 they always had in Horace. Plus Horace was maniacally wanting to beat MJ. Pippen had to bring up the ball. He was their best passer AND best rebounder. To much to ask against a stacked Orlando unit.