So... 1. Be passionate about what you love and spread that love, including recommending it to others. 2. Don't be a dick. 3. WOTC is trash. Truths we can all agree on! Thanks Tabletop Bro! =D
As someone who has played more D&D than any other system. I can kinda see where folks are coming from with their frustrations. I kinda think both sides of the aisle need to meet. There needs to be less hostility towards D&D players but at the same time D&D players need to be more willing to give other systems a chance, when my group finally started trying out other systems in between D&D games the most hesitant player in our group found out that she actually liked a couple other systems way more and regretted not being willing to dive into them sooner
@tabletopbro And yet you have made 4 videos talking about DnD out of the last 9... Face it bro, you're balls deep in DnD for the clicks because just talking about your little "douchy" TTRPG world doesn't cut it. I just love how all the haters just can't stop talking about the thing they said they forgot about. 3 years of not playing and yet you produce video after video chasing that DnD algorithm. I'm just saying you lack logical consistency and you have no spine. It's not that big of deal, you can regrow spines.
I liked running D&D 5e, I just discovered I like running a lot of other games too - many of them a lot more! I always "sell" people on a game by saying what I like about it. The approach of "this is SO much better than D&D" is just unconvincing to people anyway
In the 70s, 80s, and even 90s ... absolutely. Kids these days would be shocked at the ridicule and social stigma that players faced back then (especially the 80s) by their peers. If you beat the D&D drum publicly back then, you were either socially brave or couldn't care less about what anyone thought of you. In 2024 ... being considered "brave" doesn't take much at all.
based and true video this whole thing reminds me of the way some MCU fans defend their very mainstream tastes by attacking other not-so-mainstream films. I wonder why this stuff happens
If anything it’s the reverse. It’s like A24 fans lashing out because no one’s heard of their favorite movie. So they call MCU fans brain dead troglodytes with no taste when in reality MCU fans probably just don’t care as much about ~cinema~
Very thought provoking. I'm reminded of edition wars. It has been a tumultuous few years in the hobby and I find that tempers still run hot in the wake of the OGL fiasco (including my own at times) but it is important to remember that these are hobbies and we all should be glad to share a common thread. Quality video.
I like 5e as a game. It introduced stellar level of quality of editorial work which made reading and understanding rules much easier, it's decently structural which makes it easy to make rulings and add homerules. what I don't like is, obviously WOTS/Hasbro shenanigans and amount of people who seems just not aware that other TRPG rules and systems are even possible. Like, any TRPG is very open to interpretation and adjustment by it's nature, but many people treat DnD as immutable as a videogame, where crating modification require specialized skills and might not be reasonably doable at all. In general, people who aware of different systems and played with them are much more open to adjusting their own DnD games and treating addition books as optional.
5Es pretty great for what it is. A class based high fantasy, low stakes combat simulator. My "problems" with 5e players come when they want advice on how to make the game not those things. If you want 5e to have better social mechanics you should probably be playing a different game. If you want to give 5e more grounded combat, play a different game. If you want 5e players to feel challenged at high levels? Honestly too bad but its cool youve had your campaigns last that long. If you want to play fallout, star trek, one piece, pokemon or breaking bad play a different game. Yes you can make adjustments and homebrew some rule changes but when the answer is already play 1 of the three fallout systems which already exist or EZD6 wasted worlds, its time to stop brewing and enjoy that good potion.
True. Kickstarter is abundant with 5e supplements that are more apt to reflect a different system. I’ve started to see comment sections a where people are annoyed at settings being put into 5e instead of a different system that better reflects the lore the supplement is supposed to be based on
Agree with "If you want to play fallout, star trek, one piece, pokemon or breaking bad play a different game", but don't really agree with other things. Even with martial subsystem, or with "skill challenges", or with better monsters 5e don't become that much of a different game. Some people also have fun hacking and homebrewing things, so, why stoping them? Also let's not pretend that other systems don't have hacks and homebrews. How many major hacks on Dungeon World we have? 3? 4?
@@notsochosenone5669 I'm not stopping anyone from doing anything. Its just often more work than its worth when systems which give people what theyre asking for already exist. I play 5e and homebrew too, but at a certain point some people should step back and accept that trying to set your 5e game in a cyberpunk world is going to give you a worse experience than playing games which are already built for that. We dont need to mod minecraft into skyrim
I’ve used almost that exact metaphor before! And people called me a moron for it😂 I used to get all bothered about those discussions because, like you said, it makes way more sense to play an alternative system. But now I’m like, this has no effect on me. The straw man in our argument probably doesn’t care as much as we do, if they want to infinitely hack their dragon game to be something it’s not instead of trying another system, whatever man. I’ll be here if/when they want to try something new
I imagine it's like being an experienced board gamer who has to suffer through playing Catan at every family gathering :p Good video. Tone matters. Being positive about your favourite RPG is better than being negative about 5e. The only part about this video with which I disagree is the morality. For casual players and hobbyists, it's fine. But for serious creators and especially people with influence, they are turning fans into WotC consumers by only (or primarily) playing DnD5e. I think the creation of Daggerheart is a significant morally good act, and I hope that it (or any other RPG) can pose a serious competitive threat to WotC's monopoly.
I like catan though! If a creator genuinely likes 5e, there’s nothing wrong with them making content for it. Yes, WotC and Hasbro are evil but let people make things that they’re passionate about🤷🏻♂️
I keep pontificating about making RUclips videos mostly about both 5e and mayhaps pf2. But I have a lot of criticisms about pf2 and I keep wanting to make a video where it's basically me reading off my complaints and why i disagree with the design philosophy of balance over everything else. I also want to talk about how it made me appreciate 5e more by helping me see its pros and put them into words. I still like both systems, but I'm like genuinely afraid of getting doxxed and harrassed by some pf2 fan from kiwifarms or whatever. Because the pf2 online community in particular is full of aholes who can't handle anyone calling pf2 anything less than perfect.
My favorite TTRPG's ans systems: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
@@tabletopbro a moment of silence of all those pirates who sacrifice their lifes to steal the tomes of beach merlin the knowledge hoarder to put it to the hands of the common folk
To be honest, a lot of this is probably built up exasperation with the 5E/WotC near-monopoly being misdirected at individual people. Its easy to politely suggest things at first, and many start out that way attempting to kindly and cheerfully spread the word their preferred system(s). But people get frustrated and jaded over time seeing thousands upon thousands of posts about how people only want to play 5E. And some eventually snap and start being dicks about it, because they're sick of seeing 5E everywhere and they know (think) that nobody is going to listen to them anyway. Some people start off as dickheads certainly, but I really think most have just had the goodwill slowly squeezed out of them by their lack of ability to tangibly change anything and are taking it out on anyone who says they only play 5E. I know that I get frustrated with it, but I also know that being a jerk will only make people play more 5E and give WotC even more money. I don't begrudge 5E players their fun. Though I do hope they eventually try other games and have fun with them too. Or at least pirate WotC's content.
Totally fair take. I had that same sort of frustration when I first got into the indie scene. It took someone trying to shove Chasing Adventure down my throat when I was perfectly satisfied with Dungeon World to realize how much of a dick I had been towards the 5e faithful
My only critique on this take, while there is no obligation, it should be encouraged more. It allows you to find what highlights your 5e experience, or even a new game that you may enjoy.
People should be educated that 5e isn't the only option and told about other options, but people should respect the proverbial strawman's decision to stick with the dragon game.
I still find the statement silly. like you said at the beginning, DnD is the default system. there is never a shortage of it. I mean just search Table Top Roleplaying. the results will all be DnD. I am a GM, I have tried many many times to run a different system at my local game store and no one is interested. and you get told some variation of just run dnd instead. I personally don't like DnD or Pathfinder, its too rules heavy for me. but if I want to be involved in my local TTRPG community I MUST run DnD as no one wants to play anything else. the few times I have run DnD it has always be unfun for me as a GM as DnD rules and the most common players play with a Player VS GM mentality, its about destroying everything as quickly as possible to see the joy leave the GMs eyes cause the players are all ubermaxed.
That could just be because you’re playing pickup DnD at a game store. I ran 5e for 10 months with some close friends and no one had that mentality. I do agree that people with that mindset suck
I remember feeling like a nerd for being so into DnD, now I feel like the normie being into the “mainstream” games like DnD and Warhammer rather than all the (probably genuinely very high quality and less consumerist) indie games. However, I like your metaphor of it being a tool, like a vacuum. I live in a small town, and dislike online play, so it’s difficult to find people for a DnD game, the name recognition and popular interest of 5e definitely helps that, and just the fact that it’s what I’ve been playing since 2016- I enjoy it, it’s what I’m used to, it’s in my comfort zone, which is reason enough for me. I’m not opposed to trying some indie systems and I’m sure I could really enjoy them, but 5e is something I enjoy. Especially the Ravenloft setting book I have enjoyed so much heavily homebrewing that and being fascinated by the setting, provides enough ideas for inspiration but loose enough I can really do whatever I want with it
Would argue warhammer is still much more niche than D&D just by virtue of being a wargaming hobby. There’s a much smaller pool of folks into wargaming than into TTRPGs. Warhammer player count is estimated to be somewhere between 3.5 to 5 million worldwide based on revenue reports whereas D&D has 13.7 million players in the United States alone (with some estimating upwards of 50 million worldwide) So on that front that aspect of your hobby is still p niche
Anyone who IS playing or HAS played Dungeon and Dragons is the cause of innocent puppies being fed into a blender. I don't know how they live with themselves, frankly.
If you decide you really do want to give Runequest a shot, give a shout. (Admittedly it’s been many, many years since I last played, but I’d love an excuse to get the new version to a (virtual) tabletop.
As one of these dnd 5e (and possibly 5.5e) players/dms...i really appreciate your opinion on this. it was level headed and got me to reduce my "ire" towards all the indie lovers i see...aggressively suggesting i play anything other than 5e. By no means are we (5e players) persecuted, but my god is it so bad to just let us have fun the way we want? i made the mistake of commenting in a video once "i love dnd 5e but they have made some obvious missteps" and some jackass started browbeating me for it. "Play something else. anything else. Dungeon crawler classics". now i wouldn't mind if he just said, "hey, have you tried this? you might like it!" that would be fine, would actually get me to look into it a bit. But his answer to me saying i liked something, was to tell me to spend my money elsewhere. not a good approach.
You listen here you sonbitch, your way of having fun is wrong and you should feel bad about yourself!!!!!!! I'm glad 5e is working out for you and I wish my fellow indie enthusiasts weren't such elitist shitweasels (I would know, I was an elitist shitwheel when I first discovered the world of RPG's that aren't DnD). ((If you are curious about other systems, I love Dungeon World and I'm currently looking into Castles and Crusades))
@tabletopbro i have not heard of dungeon world, but castles and crusades is one i have heard about...i am a little curious. i may look into it myself. problem is i learn by doing so finding a group to get the full experience may not be easy, but it is on a list of potential systems to investigate
From the title I thought D&D was having a third satanic panic and I started having flashbacks to 2000 when my high school principal called the cops on me because I had D&D books at school... As someone who will play any RPG under the sun, I don't get the hating on D&D players. Most indie RPG players started with D&D. It's the gateway drug of TTRPGs. I think people just like to crap on things that are popular. People have done it with music, movies, video games, and now tabletop games. Just let people enjoy the things they enjoy! Oh, and try Mork Borg ;)
That’s freaking hilarious and it’s crazy the satanic panic was a thing. EXACTLY! The moral high ground is silly when most of us started with the dragon game. You should check out my other videos ;)
@@tabletopbro I live in the bible belt so I shouldn't of been surprised lol. I remember working at target and there was a very small protest of the Harry Potter books. Yeah, seems like you make some good content, keep it up!
There are a lot of good reasons to like and play DnD, but when I hear someone say: "I'm sticking to DnD, because now I've invested so much time learning the rules and I don't want to do it all over again" I just get sad. If learning the rules feels like a chore you are probably playing the wrong game to begin with. Either DnD was too complicated or they rules weren't fun and engaging for you. And because DnD was such a bad fit you will never learn a new game and see how fun the right set of rules can be. That said your argument that they don't care is sound. I just don't know what it feels to not care about RPGs!! But I've honestly never had a problem getting people to try new games if I'm running them and I don't expect them to read a word beforehand. Even though my players don't care about rules they really liked Masks (except the one that hated it) so rules does matter even if you don't care about shiny new systems.
I'm impressed buy as a newer ish dm I'm not running an rpg without 20 to 30 hours of reading. Understanding so I can couch all the new players through it in the limited time space.... then you add the new game isn't as kitchen sink and drives off players so you need more than 1 just compounds those hours significantly to the point it's not worth it
Not really. A lot of people do not much enjoy the learning the rules side regardless of how much they enjoy the experience/engagement once they get rolling. Not everyone is into the novelty and some people care a lot more about the stress and opportunity cost of learning a system compared to sticking with something they seem adequate. The risk of lost time, stress of learning, and high probability of disappointment is a major put-off for some people.
To add to your point, it's possible that the peeps hacking 5e to play Warhammer may never have heard of Dark Heresey, and mentioning it may help them. Just don't be a dick.
IIRC they actually mentioned they have heard of and play other RPGS, they just really wanted to use 5e for this actual play. I’d imagine it’s cause 5e will get the most clicks and they’re putting out a product
I have an analogy for this: Imaging someone, who has a lot of kitchen knives and proficient with them. Now they have to chop some firewood, and ask online how to do it with their knives. Well some of them will recommend that batoning could work, but it usually requires a sturdier blade, and someone straight out just recommends using an axe. As most thing it depends on why they using a knife instead of getting an axe as are probably cheaper that replacing your kitchen knives. Like if they need in a pinch, then I understand, but if they just don't want to learn using an axe, that seems so strange to me, as a general user and collector of any sharp things.
I get it, and I often advocate people try new systems. At the same time, being a dickhead to someone who wants to chop firewood with a knife instead of an axe does no good either. I’d say suggest using an axe and if they decline, let them be🤷🏻♂️
@@tabletopbro 100% agree, it just so hard to know that someone is "wrong" (with heavy quotation marks, as not as straightforward in reality as there are a lot of taste is also involved) in doing things you are really passionate about.
There's a woman I follow on Instagram that like, most of her thing is that she chops firewood. She talks about different types of wood, how they split, how they burn. Mostly she just chops wood. And the majority of the time, she uses a classic splitting maul and just handles it like a beast. But every now and again, she pulls out her wood-chopping sword, and it's pretty awesome. :)
totally agree. I think my more mellow demeanor on the subject (compared to my early work) comes from RPGS being something I thought about all the time, to a fun way to spend 3-4 hours with my friends on a weekly basis (playing Dungeon World!)
Usually it's not how it happens. Usually what it happens is that people will ask "how do I keep my knives sharp" and someone will say "you should just use an axe", assuming everyone wants to chop firewood.
yeah, as someone who enjoys Pathfinder 2e, it's because I love its mechanics, not because it's the morally superior system. I also prefer cats over dogs, that doesn't make me ontologically better to people who prefer dogs over cats. People in the NotD&D5e community need to chill and accept that people are happy with D&D5e mechanics (bewildering as it may seem)
But...aren't vacuum cleaners SUPPOSED to suck? Joking aside, I'm looking at different games for a group of players who WANT to try new and different systems, so I'll be checking out your "what to play" video for sure. And thanks for the reminder that we are not our choice of products! Also, stay out of Goldshire. Trust me. There are things there that man was not meant to see.
Funny enough modding d&d5e is a great way to get into non-digital game development which is another small community. Whenever I see people posting that you should change systems instead of modding 5e I like to imagine these people give up the second they need to fix any problems.
As an indie rpg creator, I definitely get the sentiment for sure Austin. One thing that has helped me is just saying, these are the rpgs I want to try and respecting where folks are at with the games they enjoy. I can and do play in one 5E game with some really awesome friends but I just do not care to run it or play it beyond that. I think its best we keep an open eye to new players while not being absolutely awful/dick heads!
Speaking as someone who hates WOTC (and Hasbro to an extent but they make Marvel Legends and Transformers so, probably a bit more forgiving than I should be) I see D&D as only one tool for me as a DM, out of many. There's also Alien, One Ring, the fan made Zelda TTRPG "Dangerous to Go Alone!," Cyberpunk Red...if I want some high fantasy zaniness where my players use the mother of all backhands to slap a dragon's head off as their finisher? True story, btw. Then I go with D&D. Old school style Greyhawk adventures? I'll look to Dungeon Crawl Classics. And so on and so forth. What helps too is there's not really any 5e books that interest me much that I cant just get secondhand, the only one left I'm wanting is Xanathar's Guide. That is to say, I love D&D as a game. The company needs a massive shakeup, time will tell if hiring a guy who worked on World of Warcraft will fix things but I'm still refraining from new releases. Especially when the world of indie RPGs exist and keep catching my attention. I might have to look into this Dungeon World you keep mentioning...
Not the hottest of takes, but a good one none the less. I think all of this discussion around "but there's a better RPG!" really misses the mark of _why_ people play 5e. Introduction to the ruleset is a major factor, but the one piece that I think a lot of people overlook is that it has good game feel. Is it as mathematically balanced as Pathfinder or Lancer? No, not even close. But does it feel good to play and provide players with impactful moments using sweet abilities? Yes, and it does this quite well. Even looking at a lot of the fixes coming down the pipe in One D&D, they didn't really change much of the math but instead shored up abilities that didn't feel punchy and smoothed out the action economy so you can have big, cool moments more often.
Unironically, this is why I stopped playing 5e, because it stopped giving that good game feel, especially when I realized the only classes with that good game feel were like, a third of them. So I started and stopped 5e on the game feel alone lol
I always find a certain degree of humor in this discourse. I played DnD for years, I've played a good number of indie tabletop games, and ultimately I've settled on unstructured play by post roleplaying as the best option for me - so there's a little amusement in the idea that any system could be superior to another when my favorite system is the total lack of one. Going through that journey though, I always had fun. I think that people should be open to try new things, because they will likely enjoy them. However, you can't force someone to branch out if they aren't interested, so stop trying. Just talk about the stuff you like, and if people are interested, they'll come looking. More flies with honey, and all that.
I play 5e, and I'd honestly say I'm fairly dedicated to it. I've only been playing for about 2 years, but I came from playing Shadowrun & Pathfinder 1E, so TTRPG's aren't new to me. The reason I do like 5e better is because it is a simpler system. I still have a lot to learn, but the math, the modifiers and everything else isn't as demanding as it is in Pathfinder. For some (like my hubby) thats a disadvantage to the system because they see it as not having as much variety. For me, I like it. I'm not the best at math and so being able to keep it simple instead of tracking 10 additional things in addition to your main stuff, is easier for me. My main example is the difference between performance in 5e & Pathfinder 1e. In 5E you roll the same performance check for anything from juggling to singing or playing any sort of instrument (prof included of course) In Pathfinder (it took my hubby about 8 years to tell me this) there's a different performance for each type of performance. It has to be specific to what you're doing. If you're singing, its a singing performance, if you're playing an instrument, it has to be a specific instrument thats listed. If you don't have prof then your bonus is lower than what your basic performance roll might be. It kinda made me mad when I found out, because it seems so needlessly complicated to me.... I just want to roll a perform check and do bard things! not worry about having a specific performance slot dedicated to my instrument. Also, in terms of rp, I'm definitely in at least 2 groups for 5e where RP is a key element in the games. In both, we spend more time rping than worrying about the system, and we always have fun. I love that so many indie TTRPG's are coming out, because I hate the direction WOTC is taking, and I plan to skip the next edition of d&d because of it... but I'm quite happy with the systems I do play.
Hey man, I dig the video but I will say the thumbnail sucks a bit. Not trying to be rude just saying based on what you said at the beginning of the video I will say as someone who has never watched a video of yours until today is that the editing is SUPERB, your personality is GREAT for a youtuber, but your thumbnail? It's lackluster. So I started to look at your other thumbnails and I think its a consistent flaw with your channel. I think that might be what might makes it harder than normal to attract new viewers!
@@tabletopbro sorry for the late response I don’t check my RUclips notification that often! So with your channel there’s a few things that overall stunts your views. I originally clicked your video because I watch any RUclips DND video that falls onto my feed. This means RUclips is recommending your content to people who watch either TTRPG videos in general or people that watch OneD&D videos or both. This is great but getting people to click is the “hard” part. I think when it comes to your videos, you have to maximize color theory. You use a lot of blue in your thumbnails. Which won’t make you lose any concurrent viewers but innately might detract a new viewer. If you used a lot of more warm colors that pop out while making your video’s bottom outline red then your views will increase. Red bottom outline because it will make the viewer think they were in the middle of watching said video and may just watch it from the beginning. Secondly, Id say do something about yourself in the thumbnails. No offense but you're standing very awkwardly in them. I know another youtube content creator that does the same thing (Dungeoncraft) but they don't seem to care too much about gaining views (hence why some videos are nearly 10% of their subscribers and their more recent higher ranking videos are about half of their total amount of subscribers. Their best video is 4x as huge as their current subscriber base). What works with Dungeoncraft however is that they grew a very loyal fanbase that likes every goofy quiek when it comes to their videos including the thumbnail. So they might be losing some new viewers, but its not their main concern. Best colors for thumbnail based on what I've seen is Red and Green. Not sure why with Green but its effective. Lastly, your videos aren’t that long I think either A) Chopping up your videos into shorts B) Increasing your videos to be around 15-20+ videos Why? People that's how people engage with content on this app. Either they're using the tiktok shorts feature and mindlessly scrolling through what they like, watching a video directly, or watching it in the background while doing something else.
It's like people who go to church and claim that their religion is under attack. In the country *founded* on religious freedom for everyone. Of course, it's also an integral part of their doctrine, so they're not likely to quit brag-whining about it. Or actually attacking everyone who isn't part of *their* religion. In the country founded on religious *freedom* for everyone. Sorry, I've got nothing against religious people. I just hate self-victimizing a-holes.
Honestly surprised you brought up Castles and Crusades, nobody talks about that one Also suggestion, if you wanna try something Runequest-y, try finding a simpler d100 system and work your way up, they all have the same resolution mechanic anyways
Oh, and to directly address the subject of the video: No, I do not think it is brave to admit you are a D&D fan now. If anything, I think tabletop games are mainstream and cool now, and most open-minded people will think that you are interesting and want to talk about it, or at least be ambivalent. Early adopters of D&D in the 70s and 80s, on the other hand, were brave, since it was firmly a nerd hobby at that time and heavily stigmatized.
As a game system itself I think 5E is fantastic. I think it is easily the most accessible and streamlined version of D&D to date, and the massive increase in D&D playerbase would stand in evidence of my opinion. At the same time, it also pays homage to all the previous editions of D&D - basically it's like if you took all the best features of previous D&D and crammed them all into one elegant system. It's getting more people to play tabletop, and that's awesome. I think there are plenty of reasons to homebrew it, too. You say "why not just use another system if you want to do X" but for many players, the process of building it yourself is part of the experience and fun. D&D is a flexible platform that accommodates a great deal of creative homebrewing options, so in that regard it is also a great system for people who just enjoy world building. There are also players who play D&D as like a heritage or nostalgia thing. Since D&D is such a long running system, its a shared experience that you might have with your parents or gamers from older generations that played earlier editions in the 80s, or maybe you grew up playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights on PC. There's a kind of tradition to D&D which indie systems don't really have. I think the primary reason to dislike 5E has nothing to do with the game system itself. There is definitely a legitimate argument for avoiding 5E purely because you disagree with Hasbro/WOTCs business decisions or their ethicality as a company. If you boycott D&D for that, I respect it and I think it's fair. I'm saying all of this as a gigachad that plays based indie RPG 13th Age, btw.
Sometimes people want a dash of something rather than an entire multi-course meal of it, too. Maybe someone wants a dash of social mechanics on top of their 5e and not a full-blown PbtA system. Maybe selling their table on some homework is easier than getting them to play an entirely new system. And some people want to create something themselves. D&D also has a versatility in having more variation in mechanics and my extension, engagement and experience, than almost any other ttrpgs, making it more broad in its appeal, which is great for bringing relatively divergent interests together at the same table, which is a massive advantage for an activity where lack of other players are commonly the biggest barrier to entry.
Whatever you love to play is the best game for you. That can change and often does. Supporting the love of playing games no matter what edition or style is what is more important. Too much time spent bickering over which is better or who real rpg players are compared to others. Less hate, play more games. Talk about the positives of why this game or that game is so popular, not why someone should drop it because you feel this other game is better. Let people figure that out for themselves. That is all. Keep em rollin
if people want more folks to play other RPGs, just run a table for it and remove barriers to entry as much as possible. Im playing DND 5e with a bunch of folks who've never read the rules, so essentially I could be making them play Vaesen without them ever knowing (sans tools like dnd beyond)
Good video. I absolutely love D&D. It's a little tiresome that people think that the only reason that people like D&D is that they haven't tried other systems and can't accept that other people simply has preferences than they do. I know that the math behind Pathfinder 2 is more rigorously, but for me roleplaying games is about having fun not about math. I would be much more inclined to try a indie rpg than something like Pathfinder, just because I prefer fewer rules because I find that too many rules often slow the game down. If someone enjoy Pathfinder, knows all the rules by heart, it doesn't slow their game down and they are having fun, then good for them - I just don't think it would work for me.
I mean there are some great TTRPG with simpler rules than D&D if that’s what you like and what you’re looking for. Dungeon World, Castles and Crusades, OSE, Shadowdark, and Knave are just a few to name a few
@@tabletopbro We play an active D&D campaign so I'm not really looking for something else. I DM and sometimes I use ideas from Dungeon World 🙂 The other TTRPG that looks most interesting to me is Daggerheart.
It genuinely brings me pain when people post advice threads about how to hack 5e to do (X) (see scifi, Warhammer, mystery) mainly because it feels like a deeply pointless and painful process when there are better solutions for the genre of game in question. I *love* PF2 but I will never, ever try to hack PF2 to play a toy story like game: I have Nighty Knights for that. I have to physically restrain myself from leaping at those comments and being the annoying guy about alternative RPGs-I *want* people to run and play other games because I really do think they would have more fun doing it that way, but I can't force them to do it. 5e DMs just... Deserve better than endless hacks.
I used to be bothered by those situations too. But I realize it has no real affect on my life. Suggest they play an alternative nicely and then go about your day🤷♂️
Yeah I've never talked to an indie rpg promoter who was not an ass about it. 5e does most stuff well enough and gets hardcore numbers folks and narrative players at the same table and system. Until an equally good system capable of doing both and not broken to hell, its just not worth the 20 plus hours of new terms, jargon, vtt updates hacks etc to play something else Edit; I should add... the reason all the blind indie rpgs reccomendations drive me off as a 5e player is they act like insert x rpg will solve all your problems without realizing that rpg is like a fraction of why people play dnd. And you are left with not 1 system but tens to learn which is a drastic amount of work and splits your diverse players who all want x y or z and you're new game selection only does y.
What I have seen is a hypercorrection in the 5E space: before the SRD debacle, you either were a 5E-tuber or you covered non-5E material. After that, everyone was pressured not to cover 5E, as if it were a sin against Gygax & Ao. Now, things are coming to a new normal, where you can be a shill for whatever.
this is a false controversy, yes theres always trolls in any group, but they dont represent anyone they are re-releasing 5e and this is a fabricated plot to try to get ppl to pay attention to 5e (not 6e) new books, theres nothing to see here
I have been kinda sour on these takes for the past days now so i was a bit surprised you jumped in here to on this topic bro. Hi its been a while hope youre doing well! I know people get tired of being in negative feelings and it sucks being shot down for liking a game, but as someone who prefers other games over 5e it feels like "youre so brave for playing the most popular and supported games??" I think this comes from a stigma that is sort of supported by these videos of "5e players absolutely refuse to play or even talk about anything else" and it is massively frustrating. But yeah i agree with "speak of the games you like with kindness" to not scare away the 5e players, but people should absolutely get to talk about other games and i dont really like oneshotqesuesters or Blaines reaction of annoyance when people mention other games. (Blaine even calls people who reccomend other games selfish which has me go ?????) But youre right in that you shouldnt judge someone on their choice of game and absolutely not be a dick like who the heck is that gonna help?? hi this has been gnawing on me for a few days now now its probably out of the system.
Glad you feel better lmao Their videos brought out an annoyance in me towards the elitism of the indie scene. But you're totally right, it's not selfish to suggest another role playing game that's ridiculous. As long as you're not being a dick doing it.
I unabashedly like DnD. People and their silly, hard, and over evangelical opinions can go pound sand. You don’t like dnd? Cool who cares? Have fun playing PF or whatever. Hating on ppl bc of the hobby they prefer is just stupid.
30mins is too long for this guy? The brain rot of this generation is approaching epic levels. Do you actually play ttrpg’s, or do you watch just TikTok’s about it?
I think the reason why a lot of people are starting to get a bit of a negative impression of D&D is because of how people are feeling that WOTC are starting to include more and more choices that they feel appeal to a far more casual audience. It's a sort of repeat of that whole Blizzard "do you guys not have phones" situation from a few years ago. Yes, statistically speaking, mobile game players make up a large - if not majority - share of the market, but the games on them are predatory in nature or are of low quality. People are starting to feel like WOTC are doing things less for the sake of roleplayability and moreso because "wouldn't it be funny if _this_ happened? That's so random!" and it feels out of touch with the more passionate and vocal roleplaying community. I've seen some people call it being "Disneyified" though that might open up a whole other can of worms.
The getting over the “D&D community” video. Is about pervasive in group complaining and to just play what you like. You all should watch it, it’s very clever.
I think the big thing is everyone is just trying to replicate core DND, and 5E made the game so accessible to so many people that it's going to take something bigger and better than it to get people to "stop liking it" or switch over. If you squint, Pathfinder and Cairn and OSE and SO MANY other systems are all DND. That's a hard sell for people who already have sunk time and more importantly money into the hobby. Books aren't cheap! You like a different version or ruleset than 5E like Knave or DCC? Hey, me too. Doesn't make it not DND. You can especially see it with the more popular attempts to "dethrone" 5E with Shadowdark and DC20. Awesome, fun systems. Still DND. You mention playing World of Warcraft and I think there's a great parallel there on many levels: how many MMOs were marketed as "WoW killers?" So many were just like WoW with maybe slightly different mechanics and a new coat of paint, but fundamentally, it was still dungeon crawling and grinding for loot the same as Everquest and all those that came before WoW. Blizzard just made a game that had the broadest appeal, and it's stuck ever since. I loved the absolute fuck out of Wildstar; didn't stop it from dying off like all the rest. Blizzard is also a shit company, so there's that too, I guess.
Gonna be real... What turned me hostile against the 5E community, was how toxic it f***ing was! I once responded to a comment asking about "homebrew" advice (this was when I still DM'd D&D 5E), and I provided a...lengthy...response, trying to help. At the *bottom* , I provided a few suggests of alternate game systems that exactly did what they were wanting to "hack up" into D&D 5E; I wasn't being hostile, just..."Oh, if you didnt know, this is a few different game systems that also do exactly the suggests I made, its where I borrowed them from in my homebrew." ...and the response was (paraphrasing now, most of it got deleted, because when you call an Aussie certain words, he'll call you a C-word in MANY creative ways, over many sentences!) "Look, I dont wanna play another system! God! Why do you people just pop in here and try to make us play something else? F*** off! D&D is superior!" And...that was the resounding comments that followed from that. They didnt read what I wrote, they read that person's response, and reacted. 5E'ers are a bunch of cultists who suckled from the 'florida' of WotC, and guzzled down that cool-aid jizzm... I make no attempt now-a-days to hide my contempt for the community, but if someone engages with me peacefully and reasonably, I react in-kind. I will provide my knowledge to questions asked, and I will provide lengthy, but explained reasonings for my points... Like, for example... Apparently there's a problem with some DM's not knowing how to handle certain spells in D&D, like Scrying? Speak with Dead? Comprehend Languages? because it messes up the flow of a Mystery they wanna play out... Well, I wont explain the actions, but there's a Call of Cthulhu adventure module called "Panacea" from Peterson's Abominations, set in the modern day, so the investigators have access to smartphones, the internet, translation apps, all that stuff. Other games may not be your thing, but they might provide the answer to a problem you're having, that doesn't just force you to "ban" a spell, or claim an Anti-Magic Field engulfs the area, or whatever. Sorry this was wordy, But as a fellow non-D&D creator, you have 4,970 more subscribers then me, so I wanted to say something, that *might* get heard...LOL!
My dude, you have expressed these same tabletop hipster attitudes in a lot of your Dungeonworld videos, and it didn't come off as a joke. Hoping this means you have grown since then.
So, even when I was done giving money to WotC...right after the OGL scandal...also known as GSL 2.0...because that wasn't the first time they did that...I was okay with playing 5E with what I had and other playing and enjoying the game. Especially since they walked it back. Then they sent the Pinkertons after a Magic player. Yeah...I was not really okay with even playing their game after that. Not really at judging others for doing it yet. And all the repeated AI art that showed up. And then they fired people right before Christmas. At this point, ANYONE even PLAYING the game is saying none of that matters. Even if you don't spend money anymore, just playing the game is support of all that. Yeah...I'm judging you pretty hard for that now. And if you play D&D 24, that means you even spent money. And that sends a message to WotC that all the bad things they did really doesn't matter. They can keep doing bad things...and GSL 3.0 WILL be coming.
I mean if you like 5e and you already have the stuff, might as well play it. Wizards doesn't have spies sitting in your house. But I do agree folks should unsub to D&D Beyond and refuse to buy new product.
@@tabletopbro While they may not be spying if I run the game at my home, running the game at a FLGS then there is visibility. Not from just the players in the game itself, but also from people at the store. If I run the game using a VTT, there is usually data collected on what system are run most often and that becomes support. I guess since I haven't had games in private areas in so long, I forget that is an actual option...but Covid kinda broke up all my meet at somebody's house groups. So, I suppose in private area, it's fine.
D&D player here. The indie space's biggest enemy is theirself. I've never been compelled to play because of how toxic everyone is. One thing you have to understand is most people don't care about your game. If people cared they would buy it. The proof is in the numbers. But indie players can't come to grips with they like something that is niche. It's ok to like something is niche, but no one is missing out because they don't like your niche interest. This is why hipsters got memed into an early grave. Hipsters always gave off an air of superiority and everyone else is just laughing at them as were practically begging others to care about their niche interest. These are the type of people that complain that The Acolyte got cancelled, but shows people watch don't get cancelled. At someone point you have to face reality no one cares about what you care about and that the market dictates the survival of a product. When I play D&D I have a plethora of resources at my fingertips and they are available at big and small stores. Can't say the same thing about Dungeon World or Masks without the internet I wouldn't even know about them, but if they were popular meaning people bought and liked them they would not have this issue. At some point they need to look in the mirror that the reason your game hasn't taken off is because no one cares because people buy things they care about. Awww sad, I know. Also most people who play are not try hard whatevers who care about company politics which is why the OGL scandal didn't actually move the needle for interest. I've been playing for years now and even keep up with everything and found it really hard to care about this so called scandal. I had a hard time caring about people I don't know getting laid off. Because despite what people feel most people are just here to game and meanwhile they are shooting themselves in the foot by being toxic to something that many other people enjoy. If you want to invite someone to a party it's best to invite them with cake and not a bag of shit because the space is primarily a social one indie space is advertising with shit (and I mean their attitudes). Even Ron the Rules Lawyer spends half his time shitting on D&D so I lost interest because he seems to care more about hating on D&D than enjoying his own game. I saw him in your comments yesterday saying even though you don't like Pathfinder at least you both can come together and hate D&D. Sounds like a good way to push away the largest market. And I have joined some of these other facebook groups and they are pretty toxic and apathetic as well. If I want an answer in a D&D community I have it in a mere few hours but if I post a question in the Pathfinder group (or another indie game) no answer. So it's not exactly welcoming to new players. And who seem to care more about shitting on their biggest rival. My advice to these systems is they have to keep up with D&D, if D&D is making a book every quarter than they need to make a book every quarter. I looked into Masks and they only 4 books in all the years they have been around. In most spaces that would count them as irrelevant. I think Pathfinder does a good job at keeping up with content but the issue I have with Pathfinder is they have a huge blindspot about where they came from. They spend all this time talking shit about D&D yet they are a D&D spinoff. They wouldn't exist without D&D. So nearly every game in this space of gaming owes their existence to D&D. And if you are in book shelf with D&D the only reason people are going to that section is because of D&D, so in my opinion there really needs to be a feeling of gratitude because that game is the only reason they exist and have any chance of getting noticed vicariously.
5e wouldnt be that bad if they fixed the hit points (should cap at like 20). Combat is just too boring. Pathfinder 2e and osr are just DND and im tired of pretending theyre not. I dont understand why they need their own category.
Pathfinder 2E is D&D only if you consider D&D 4E to be D&D. Which many people don't. Me included. PF2E is different enough to be it's own thing. Now PF1E,,,yes that is basically D&D 100%. It's why Pathfinder 1E was known has D&D 3.75. But yes, OSR is basically AD&D 2E. But why it's own category? Because in certain customer bases, being attached to WotC now is toxic to your profitability. So OSR is it's own thing. And so is Pathfinder (both 1E and 2E).
@@tabletopbro I don't think it's different enough to be an alternative, and I think it hurts the hobby when people pitch it as such. To me an alternative to DND is at least dungeon world because it changes the way the game is played foundationally. I think criticism of DND from the perspective of DND-likes is what makes this hobby / community have a monolith in the first place. This hobby would be in such a healthier place if white wolf didn't shit the bed, and Vampire the Masquerade was the second biggest game. (Personally, I'd prefer Call of Cthulhu, but beggars can't be choosers). Instead we have pathfinder 2e as the number 2 and I find that to be such a travesty. I hope you didn't take this as a criticism of you because it wasn't meant that way. It's more of a critique of our community. I agree with your takes most of the time.
Gonna go to Starbucks and shout that everyone should drink dirty sodas instead.
I audibly cackled in my office and now everyone’s staring
So...
1. Be passionate about what you love and spread that love, including recommending it to others.
2. Don't be a dick.
3. WOTC is trash.
Truths we can all agree on! Thanks Tabletop Bro! =D
Talking shit about D&D won't make more people buy your game. You attract more flies with honey.
As someone who has played more D&D than any other system. I can kinda see where folks are coming from with their frustrations. I kinda think both sides of the aisle need to meet. There needs to be less hostility towards D&D players but at the same time D&D players need to be more willing to give other systems a chance, when my group finally started trying out other systems in between D&D games the most hesitant player in our group found out that she actually liked a couple other systems way more and regretted not being willing to dive into them sooner
No
I’m simply not a fan of WOTC
Based
The company can get fucked
And yet you use their product. 😅😂
One day you all will learn that the real enemy isn't any one company but capitalism itself. You're welcome.
@@007ohboy I haven't played 5e in three years🤷♂
Whilst I agree with your point, you sound like a pretentious douche
@tabletopbro And yet you have made 4 videos talking about DnD out of the last 9...
Face it bro, you're balls deep in DnD for the clicks because just talking about your little "douchy" TTRPG world doesn't cut it.
I just love how all the haters just can't stop talking about the thing they said they forgot about. 3 years of not playing and yet you produce video after video chasing that DnD algorithm.
I'm just saying you lack logical consistency and you have no spine. It's not that big of deal, you can regrow spines.
I liked running D&D 5e, I just discovered I like running a lot of other games too - many of them a lot more! I always "sell" people on a game by saying what I like about it. The approach of "this is SO much better than D&D" is just unconvincing to people anyway
In the 70s, 80s, and even 90s ... absolutely. Kids these days would be shocked at the ridicule and social stigma that players faced back then (especially the 80s) by their peers. If you beat the D&D drum publicly back then, you were either socially brave or couldn't care less about what anyone thought of you. In 2024 ... being considered "brave" doesn't take much at all.
This video’s in reference to member of the indie rpg scene being dicks to those who like 5e
based and true video
this whole thing reminds me of the way some MCU fans defend their very mainstream tastes by attacking other not-so-mainstream films. I wonder why this stuff happens
If anything it’s the reverse. It’s like A24 fans lashing out because no one’s heard of their favorite movie. So they call MCU fans brain dead troglodytes with no taste when in reality MCU fans probably just don’t care as much about ~cinema~
Tribalism really.
Very thought provoking. I'm reminded of edition wars.
It has been a tumultuous few years in the hobby and I find that tempers still run hot in the wake of the OGL fiasco (including my own at times) but it is important to remember that these are hobbies and we all should be glad to share a common thread.
Quality video.
Thanks! It really is important to remember that this is all for fun and amusement and doesn’t really matter in the end
I like 5e as a game. It introduced stellar level of quality of editorial work which made reading and understanding rules much easier, it's decently structural which makes it easy to make rulings and add homerules.
what I don't like is, obviously WOTS/Hasbro shenanigans and amount of people who seems just not aware that other TRPG rules and systems are even possible. Like, any TRPG is very open to interpretation and adjustment by it's nature, but many people treat DnD as immutable as a videogame, where crating modification require specialized skills and might not be reasonably doable at all. In general, people who aware of different systems and played with them are much more open to adjusting their own DnD games and treating addition books as optional.
Well said
5Es pretty great for what it is. A class based high fantasy, low stakes combat simulator. My "problems" with 5e players come when they want advice on how to make the game not those things.
If you want 5e to have better social mechanics you should probably be playing a different game. If you want to give 5e more grounded combat, play a different game. If you want 5e players to feel challenged at high levels? Honestly too bad but its cool youve had your campaigns last that long.
If you want to play fallout, star trek, one piece, pokemon or breaking bad play a different game. Yes you can make adjustments and homebrew some rule changes but when the answer is already play 1 of the three fallout systems which already exist or EZD6 wasted worlds, its time to stop brewing and enjoy that good potion.
True. Kickstarter is abundant with 5e supplements that are more apt to reflect a different system. I’ve started to see comment sections a where people are annoyed at settings being put into 5e instead of a different system that better reflects the lore the supplement is supposed to be based on
Agree with "If you want to play fallout, star trek, one piece, pokemon or breaking bad play a different game", but don't really agree with other things. Even with martial subsystem, or with "skill challenges", or with better monsters 5e don't become that much of a different game. Some people also have fun hacking and homebrewing things, so, why stoping them? Also let's not pretend that other systems don't have hacks and homebrews. How many major hacks on Dungeon World we have? 3? 4?
@@notsochosenone5669 I'm not stopping anyone from doing anything. Its just often more work than its worth when systems which give people what theyre asking for already exist.
I play 5e and homebrew too, but at a certain point some people should step back and accept that trying to set your 5e game in a cyberpunk world is going to give you a worse experience than playing games which are already built for that.
We dont need to mod minecraft into skyrim
People asking me why I don’t play some “superior” hack of Dungeon World when I’m perfectly happy with Dungeon World as it is, is what radicalized me
I’ve used almost that exact metaphor before! And people called me a moron for it😂
I used to get all bothered about those discussions because, like you said, it makes way more sense to play an alternative system.
But now I’m like, this has no effect on me. The straw man in our argument probably doesn’t care as much as we do, if they want to infinitely hack their dragon game to be something it’s not instead of trying another system, whatever man. I’ll be here if/when they want to try something new
I imagine it's like being an experienced board gamer who has to suffer through playing Catan at every family gathering :p
Good video. Tone matters. Being positive about your favourite RPG is better than being negative about 5e.
The only part about this video with which I disagree is the morality. For casual players and hobbyists, it's fine. But for serious creators and especially people with influence, they are turning fans into WotC consumers by only (or primarily) playing DnD5e. I think the creation of Daggerheart is a significant morally good act, and I hope that it (or any other RPG) can pose a serious competitive threat to WotC's monopoly.
I like catan though!
If a creator genuinely likes 5e, there’s nothing wrong with them making content for it. Yes, WotC and Hasbro are evil but let people make things that they’re passionate about🤷🏻♂️
Catan? No, it'd be Monopoly
I keep pontificating about making RUclips videos mostly about both 5e and mayhaps pf2. But I have a lot of criticisms about pf2 and I keep wanting to make a video where it's basically me reading off my complaints and why i disagree with the design philosophy of balance over everything else. I also want to talk about how it made me appreciate 5e more by helping me see its pros and put them into words. I still like both systems, but I'm like genuinely afraid of getting doxxed and harrassed by some pf2 fan from kiwifarms or whatever. Because the pf2 online community in particular is full of aholes who can't handle anyone calling pf2 anything less than perfect.
My favorite TTRPG's ans systems: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
Im fine with people liking D&D 5e as long as its free. Pirate the books, make homebrews. Just dont give your money to the beach merlin.
THE BEACH MERLIN
@@tabletopbro a moment of silence of all those pirates who sacrifice their lifes to steal the tomes of beach merlin the knowledge hoarder to put it to the hands of the common folk
Seaside Sorcerers
Coastal Conjurors
Sorcerers of the shore.
To be honest, a lot of this is probably built up exasperation with the 5E/WotC near-monopoly being misdirected at individual people. Its easy to politely suggest things at first, and many start out that way attempting to kindly and cheerfully spread the word their preferred system(s). But people get frustrated and jaded over time seeing thousands upon thousands of posts about how people only want to play 5E. And some eventually snap and start being dicks about it, because they're sick of seeing 5E everywhere and they know (think) that nobody is going to listen to them anyway. Some people start off as dickheads certainly, but I really think most have just had the goodwill slowly squeezed out of them by their lack of ability to tangibly change anything and are taking it out on anyone who says they only play 5E. I know that I get frustrated with it, but I also know that being a jerk will only make people play more 5E and give WotC even more money. I don't begrudge 5E players their fun. Though I do hope they eventually try other games and have fun with them too. Or at least pirate WotC's content.
Totally fair take. I had that same sort of frustration when I first got into the indie scene.
It took someone trying to shove Chasing Adventure down my throat when I was perfectly satisfied with Dungeon World to realize how much of a dick I had been towards the 5e faithful
People like being butt hurt about stuff. It's easier than doing something about it. It is not like the old rules no longer exist.
Nah they get deleted off the internet
@@tabletopbro Thesacredtexts.gif!
My only critique on this take, while there is no obligation, it should be encouraged more. It allows you to find what highlights your 5e experience, or even a new game that you may enjoy.
People should be educated that 5e isn't the only option and told about other options, but people should respect the proverbial strawman's decision to stick with the dragon game.
I still find the statement silly. like you said at the beginning, DnD is the default system. there is never a shortage of it. I mean just search Table Top Roleplaying. the results will all be DnD.
I am a GM, I have tried many many times to run a different system at my local game store and no one is interested. and you get told some variation of just run dnd instead. I personally don't like DnD or Pathfinder, its too rules heavy for me. but if I want to be involved in my local TTRPG community I MUST run DnD as no one wants to play anything else. the few times I have run DnD it has always be unfun for me as a GM as DnD rules and the most common players play with a Player VS GM mentality, its about destroying everything as quickly as possible to see the joy leave the GMs eyes cause the players are all ubermaxed.
That could just be because you’re playing pickup DnD at a game store. I ran 5e for 10 months with some close friends and no one had that mentality.
I do agree that people with that mindset suck
@@tabletopbro that would be fair. But the store always runs full campaigns session 0 the works. I don’t think they do pick up dnd except on weekends.
Love your humour and enjoy your content very much...and I am not even sitting on your side of the ocean. So please keep on doing what you do! 👍
Thank you! I have no plans of stopping!
I remember feeling like a nerd for being so into DnD, now I feel like the normie being into the “mainstream” games like DnD and Warhammer rather than all the (probably genuinely very high quality and less consumerist) indie games. However, I like your metaphor of it being a tool, like a vacuum. I live in a small town, and dislike online play, so it’s difficult to find people for a DnD game, the name recognition and popular interest of 5e definitely helps that, and just the fact that it’s what I’ve been playing since 2016- I enjoy it, it’s what I’m used to, it’s in my comfort zone, which is reason enough for me. I’m not opposed to trying some indie systems and I’m sure I could really enjoy them, but 5e is something I enjoy. Especially the Ravenloft setting book I have enjoyed so much heavily homebrewing that and being fascinated by the setting, provides enough ideas for inspiration but loose enough I can really do whatever I want with it
If 5e scratches the itch, who am I to tell you your fun is wrong and you should switch systems?
Would argue warhammer is still much more niche than D&D just by virtue of being a wargaming hobby. There’s a much smaller pool of folks into wargaming than into TTRPGs. Warhammer player count is estimated to be somewhere between 3.5 to 5 million worldwide based on revenue reports whereas D&D has 13.7 million players in the United States alone (with some estimating upwards of 50 million worldwide)
So on that front that aspect of your hobby is still p niche
Anyone who IS playing or HAS played Dungeon and Dragons is the cause of innocent puppies being fed into a blender. I don't know how they live with themselves, frankly.
Wizards of the Coast murdered my children AND my parents
Wow, that Tabletop Bro has made some good points!
Not from the 5E faithfull tho.
@@hectorvivis3651 awwww thanks you!
If you decide you really do want to give Runequest a shot, give a shout. (Admittedly it’s been many, many years since I last played, but I’d love an excuse to get the new version to a (virtual) tabletop.
As one of these dnd 5e (and possibly 5.5e) players/dms...i really appreciate your opinion on this. it was level headed and got me to reduce my "ire" towards all the indie lovers i see...aggressively suggesting i play anything other than 5e.
By no means are we (5e players) persecuted, but my god is it so bad to just let us have fun the way we want? i made the mistake of commenting in a video once "i love dnd 5e but they have made some obvious missteps" and some jackass started browbeating me for it. "Play something else. anything else. Dungeon crawler classics". now i wouldn't mind if he just said, "hey, have you tried this? you might like it!" that would be fine, would actually get me to look into it a bit. But his answer to me saying i liked something, was to tell me to spend my money elsewhere. not a good approach.
You listen here you sonbitch, your way of having fun is wrong and you should feel bad about yourself!!!!!!!
I'm glad 5e is working out for you and I wish my fellow indie enthusiasts weren't such elitist shitweasels (I would know, I was an elitist shitwheel when I first discovered the world of RPG's that aren't DnD).
((If you are curious about other systems, I love Dungeon World and I'm currently looking into Castles and Crusades))
@tabletopbro i have not heard of dungeon world, but castles and crusades is one i have heard about...i am a little curious. i may look into it myself. problem is i learn by doing so finding a group to get the full experience may not be easy, but it is on a list of potential systems to investigate
From the title I thought D&D was having a third satanic panic and I started having flashbacks to 2000 when my high school principal called the cops on me because I had D&D books at school...
As someone who will play any RPG under the sun, I don't get the hating on D&D players. Most indie RPG players started with D&D. It's the gateway drug of TTRPGs. I think people just like to crap on things that are popular. People have done it with music, movies, video games, and now tabletop games. Just let people enjoy the things they enjoy! Oh, and try Mork Borg ;)
That’s freaking hilarious and it’s crazy the satanic panic was a thing.
EXACTLY! The moral high ground is silly when most of us started with the dragon game.
You should check out my other videos ;)
@@tabletopbro I live in the bible belt so I shouldn't of been surprised lol. I remember working at target and there was a very small protest of the Harry Potter books.
Yeah, seems like you make some good content, keep it up!
I knew a couple of kids who weren't allowed to read/watch the books/movies.
I only say watch my other vids cause I've covered Mork Borg before!
There are a lot of good reasons to like and play DnD, but when I hear someone say: "I'm sticking to DnD, because now I've invested so much time learning the rules and I don't want to do it all over again" I just get sad. If learning the rules feels like a chore you are probably playing the wrong game to begin with. Either DnD was too complicated or they rules weren't fun and engaging for you. And because DnD was such a bad fit you will never learn a new game and see how fun the right set of rules can be.
That said your argument that they don't care is sound. I just don't know what it feels to not care about RPGs!! But I've honestly never had a problem getting people to try new games if I'm running them and I don't expect them to read a word beforehand. Even though my players don't care about rules they really liked Masks (except the one that hated it) so rules does matter even if you don't care about shiny new systems.
I'm impressed buy as a newer ish dm I'm not running an rpg without 20 to 30 hours of reading. Understanding so I can couch all the new players through it in the limited time space.... then you add the new game isn't as kitchen sink and drives off players so you need more than 1 just compounds those hours significantly to the point it's not worth it
Not really. A lot of people do not much enjoy the learning the rules side regardless of how much they enjoy the experience/engagement once they get rolling. Not everyone is into the novelty and some people care a lot more about the stress and opportunity cost of learning a system compared to sticking with something they seem adequate. The risk of lost time, stress of learning, and high probability of disappointment is a major put-off for some people.
Now I'm tempted to see what Runequest is even though I don't usually like runes.
Yeah, some of those runes can be quest-ionable.
To add to your point, it's possible that the peeps hacking 5e to play Warhammer may never have heard of Dark Heresey, and mentioning it may help them. Just don't be a dick.
IIRC they actually mentioned they have heard of and play other RPGS, they just really wanted to use 5e for this actual play.
I’d imagine it’s cause 5e will get the most clicks and they’re putting out a product
@@tabletopbro that makes a sad amount of sense.
I have an analogy for this:
Imaging someone, who has a lot of kitchen knives and proficient with them. Now they have to chop some firewood, and ask online how to do it with their knives. Well some of them will recommend that batoning could work, but it usually requires a sturdier blade, and someone straight out just recommends using an axe.
As most thing it depends on why they using a knife instead of getting an axe as are probably cheaper that replacing your kitchen knives. Like if they need in a pinch, then I understand, but if they just don't want to learn using an axe, that seems so strange to me, as a general user and collector of any sharp things.
I get it, and I often advocate people try new systems. At the same time, being a dickhead to someone who wants to chop firewood with a knife instead of an axe does no good either. I’d say suggest using an axe and if they decline, let them be🤷🏻♂️
@@tabletopbro 100% agree, it just so hard to know that someone is "wrong" (with heavy quotation marks, as not as straightforward in reality as there are a lot of taste is also involved) in doing things you are really passionate about.
There's a woman I follow on Instagram that like, most of her thing is that she chops firewood. She talks about different types of wood, how they split, how they burn. Mostly she just chops wood. And the majority of the time, she uses a classic splitting maul and just handles it like a beast. But every now and again, she pulls out her wood-chopping sword, and it's pretty awesome. :)
totally agree.
I think my more mellow demeanor on the subject (compared to my early work) comes from RPGS being something I thought about all the time, to a fun way to spend 3-4 hours with my friends on a weekly basis (playing Dungeon World!)
Usually it's not how it happens. Usually what it happens is that people will ask "how do I keep my knives sharp" and someone will say "you should just use an axe", assuming everyone wants to chop firewood.
2:07 It seems you have sorted this by newest post rather than member count. All three of the D&D ones are on top.
yeah, as someone who enjoys Pathfinder 2e, it's because I love its mechanics, not because it's the morally superior system. I also prefer cats over dogs, that doesn't make me ontologically better to people who prefer dogs over cats. People in the NotD&D5e community need to chill and accept that people are happy with D&D5e mechanics (bewildering as it may seem)
HELL YEAH CATS
Some people play the brand, not the game.
Great work good sir! I love it. Thanks for the thing and the stuff and the things!
Nah thank you for thinking the things and stuff!
But...aren't vacuum cleaners SUPPOSED to suck?
Joking aside, I'm looking at different games for a group of players who WANT to try new and different systems, so I'll be checking out your "what to play" video for sure. And thanks for the reminder that we are not our choice of products!
Also, stay out of Goldshire. Trust me. There are things there that man was not meant to see.
Funny enough modding d&d5e is a great way to get into non-digital game development which is another small community. Whenever I see people posting that you should change systems instead of modding 5e I like to imagine these people give up the second they need to fix any problems.
As an indie rpg creator, I definitely get the sentiment for sure Austin. One thing that has helped me is just saying, these are the rpgs I want to try and respecting where folks are at with the games they enjoy. I can and do play in one 5E game with some really awesome friends but I just do not care to run it or play it beyond that. I think its best we keep an open eye to new players while not being absolutely awful/dick heads!
Speaking as someone who hates WOTC (and Hasbro to an extent but they make Marvel Legends and Transformers so, probably a bit more forgiving than I should be) I see D&D as only one tool for me as a DM, out of many. There's also Alien, One Ring, the fan made Zelda TTRPG "Dangerous to Go Alone!," Cyberpunk Red...if I want some high fantasy zaniness where my players use the mother of all backhands to slap a dragon's head off as their finisher? True story, btw. Then I go with D&D. Old school style Greyhawk adventures? I'll look to Dungeon Crawl Classics. And so on and so forth. What helps too is there's not really any 5e books that interest me much that I cant just get secondhand, the only one left I'm wanting is Xanathar's Guide. That is to say, I love D&D as a game. The company needs a massive shakeup, time will tell if hiring a guy who worked on World of Warcraft will fix things but I'm still refraining from new releases. Especially when the world of indie RPGs exist and keep catching my attention. I might have to look into this Dungeon World you keep mentioning...
Not the hottest of takes, but a good one none the less. I think all of this discussion around "but there's a better RPG!" really misses the mark of _why_ people play 5e. Introduction to the ruleset is a major factor, but the one piece that I think a lot of people overlook is that it has good game feel. Is it as mathematically balanced as Pathfinder or Lancer? No, not even close. But does it feel good to play and provide players with impactful moments using sweet abilities? Yes, and it does this quite well. Even looking at a lot of the fixes coming down the pipe in One D&D, they didn't really change much of the math but instead shored up abilities that didn't feel punchy and smoothed out the action economy so you can have big, cool moments more often.
Unironically, this is why I stopped playing 5e, because it stopped giving that good game feel, especially when I realized the only classes with that good game feel were like, a third of them. So I started and stopped 5e on the game feel alone lol
I always find a certain degree of humor in this discourse. I played DnD for years, I've played a good number of indie tabletop games, and ultimately I've settled on unstructured play by post roleplaying as the best option for me - so there's a little amusement in the idea that any system could be superior to another when my favorite system is the total lack of one.
Going through that journey though, I always had fun. I think that people should be open to try new things, because they will likely enjoy them. However, you can't force someone to branch out if they aren't interested, so stop trying. Just talk about the stuff you like, and if people are interested, they'll come looking. More flies with honey, and all that.
Well said! Systemless play by post sounds like a trip
I play 5e, and I'd honestly say I'm fairly dedicated to it. I've only been playing for about 2 years, but I came from playing Shadowrun & Pathfinder 1E, so TTRPG's aren't new to me. The reason I do like 5e better is because it is a simpler system. I still have a lot to learn, but the math, the modifiers and everything else isn't as demanding as it is in Pathfinder. For some (like my hubby) thats a disadvantage to the system because they see it as not having as much variety. For me, I like it. I'm not the best at math and so being able to keep it simple instead of tracking 10 additional things in addition to your main stuff, is easier for me.
My main example is the difference between performance in 5e & Pathfinder 1e.
In 5E you roll the same performance check for anything from juggling to singing or playing any sort of instrument (prof included of course)
In Pathfinder (it took my hubby about 8 years to tell me this) there's a different performance for each type of performance. It has to be specific to what you're doing. If you're singing, its a singing performance, if you're playing an instrument, it has to be a specific instrument thats listed. If you don't have prof then your bonus is lower than what your basic performance roll might be.
It kinda made me mad when I found out, because it seems so needlessly complicated to me.... I just want to roll a perform check and do bard things! not worry about having a specific performance slot dedicated to my instrument.
Also, in terms of rp, I'm definitely in at least 2 groups for 5e where RP is a key element in the games. In both, we spend more time rping than worrying about the system, and we always have fun.
I love that so many indie TTRPG's are coming out, because I hate the direction WOTC is taking, and I plan to skip the next edition of d&d because of it... but I'm quite happy with the systems I do play.
Hey man, I dig the video but I will say the thumbnail sucks a bit. Not trying to be rude just saying based on what you said at the beginning of the video I will say as someone who has never watched a video of yours until today is that the editing is SUPERB, your personality is GREAT for a youtuber, but your thumbnail? It's lackluster. So I started to look at your other thumbnails and I think its a consistent flaw with your channel. I think that might be what might makes it harder than normal to attract new viewers!
I appreciate the feedback! What would you suggest I do differently?
@@tabletopbro sorry for the late response I don’t check my RUclips notification that often!
So with your channel there’s a few things that overall stunts your views. I originally clicked your video because I watch any RUclips DND video that falls onto my feed. This means RUclips is recommending your content to people who watch either TTRPG videos in general or people that watch OneD&D videos or both. This is great but getting people to click is the “hard” part.
I think when it comes to your videos, you have to maximize color theory. You use a lot of blue in your thumbnails. Which won’t make you lose any concurrent viewers but innately might detract a new viewer. If you used a lot of more warm colors that pop out while making your video’s bottom outline red then your views will increase.
Red bottom outline because it will make the viewer think they were in the middle of watching said video and may just watch it from the beginning.
Secondly, Id say do something about yourself in the thumbnails. No offense but you're standing very awkwardly in them. I know another youtube content creator that does the same thing (Dungeoncraft) but they don't seem to care too much about gaining views (hence why some videos are nearly 10% of their subscribers and their more recent higher ranking videos are about half of their total amount of subscribers. Their best video is 4x as huge as their current subscriber base). What works with Dungeoncraft however is that they grew a very loyal fanbase that likes every goofy quiek when it comes to their videos including the thumbnail. So they might be losing some new viewers, but its not their main concern.
Best colors for thumbnail based on what I've seen is Red and Green. Not sure why with Green but its effective.
Lastly, your videos aren’t that long I think either
A) Chopping up your videos into shorts
B) Increasing your videos to be around 15-20+ videos
Why? People that's how people engage with content on this app. Either they're using the tiktok shorts feature and mindlessly scrolling through what they like, watching a video directly, or watching it in the background while doing something else.
Wow, that Tabletop Bro made some good points.
Awww thanks man
It's like people who go to church and claim that their religion is under attack. In the country *founded* on religious freedom for everyone. Of course, it's also an integral part of their doctrine, so they're not likely to quit brag-whining about it. Or actually attacking everyone who isn't part of *their* religion. In the country founded on religious *freedom* for everyone. Sorry, I've got nothing against religious people. I just hate self-victimizing a-holes.
Honestly surprised you brought up Castles and Crusades, nobody talks about that one
Also suggestion, if you wanna try something Runequest-y, try finding a simpler d100 system and work your way up, they all have the same resolution mechanic anyways
The main appeal of runequest for me is bronze age
Oh, and to directly address the subject of the video: No, I do not think it is brave to admit you are a D&D fan now. If anything, I think tabletop games are mainstream and cool now, and most open-minded people will think that you are interesting and want to talk about it, or at least be ambivalent. Early adopters of D&D in the 70s and 80s, on the other hand, were brave, since it was firmly a nerd hobby at that time and heavily stigmatized.
It’s more talking about the trend of creators “being brave admitting they like D&D” amidst the indie scene’s less than spectacular criticism of them
As a game system itself I think 5E is fantastic. I think it is easily the most accessible and streamlined version of D&D to date, and the massive increase in D&D playerbase would stand in evidence of my opinion. At the same time, it also pays homage to all the previous editions of D&D - basically it's like if you took all the best features of previous D&D and crammed them all into one elegant system. It's getting more people to play tabletop, and that's awesome.
I think there are plenty of reasons to homebrew it, too. You say "why not just use another system if you want to do X" but for many players, the process of building it yourself is part of the experience and fun. D&D is a flexible platform that accommodates a great deal of creative homebrewing options, so in that regard it is also a great system for people who just enjoy world building.
There are also players who play D&D as like a heritage or nostalgia thing. Since D&D is such a long running system, its a shared experience that you might have with your parents or gamers from older generations that played earlier editions in the 80s, or maybe you grew up playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights on PC. There's a kind of tradition to D&D which indie systems don't really have.
I think the primary reason to dislike 5E has nothing to do with the game system itself. There is definitely a legitimate argument for avoiding 5E purely because you disagree with Hasbro/WOTCs business decisions or their ethicality as a company. If you boycott D&D for that, I respect it and I think it's fair.
I'm saying all of this as a gigachad that plays based indie RPG 13th Age, btw.
Sometimes people want a dash of something rather than an entire multi-course meal of it, too. Maybe someone wants a dash of social mechanics on top of their 5e and not a full-blown PbtA system. Maybe selling their table on some homework is easier than getting them to play an entirely new system. And some people want to create something themselves. D&D also has a versatility in having more variation in mechanics and my extension, engagement and experience, than almost any other ttrpgs, making it more broad in its appeal, which is great for bringing relatively divergent interests together at the same table, which is a massive advantage for an activity where lack of other players are commonly the biggest barrier to entry.
Whatever you love to play is the best game for you. That can change and often does. Supporting the love of playing games no matter what edition or style is what is more important. Too much time spent bickering over which is better or who real rpg players are compared to others. Less hate, play more games. Talk about the positives of why this game or that game is so popular, not why someone should drop it because you feel this other game is better. Let people figure that out for themselves.
That is all.
Keep em rollin
I applaud you, brave D&D player!
I play dungeon world but thanks!
if people want more folks to play other RPGs, just run a table for it and remove barriers to entry as much as possible. Im playing DND 5e with a bunch of folks who've never read the rules, so essentially I could be making them play Vaesen without them ever knowing (sans tools like dnd beyond)
My group of IRL friends didn't even know the rules of 5e, they just used D&D Beyond -- so this could totally work lmao.
Good video. I absolutely love D&D. It's a little tiresome that people think that the only reason that people like D&D is that they haven't tried other systems and can't accept that other people simply has preferences than they do.
I know that the math behind Pathfinder 2 is more rigorously, but for me roleplaying games is about having fun not about math. I would be much more inclined to try a indie rpg than something like Pathfinder, just because I prefer fewer rules because I find that too many rules often slow the game down. If someone enjoy Pathfinder, knows all the rules by heart, it doesn't slow their game down and they are having fun, then good for them - I just don't think it would work for me.
I mean there are some great TTRPG with simpler rules than D&D if that’s what you like and what you’re looking for.
Dungeon World, Castles and Crusades, OSE, Shadowdark, and Knave are just a few to name a few
@@tabletopbro We play an active D&D
campaign so I'm not really looking for something else. I DM and sometimes I use ideas from Dungeon World 🙂
The other TTRPG that looks most interesting to me is Daggerheart.
It genuinely brings me pain when people post advice threads about how to hack 5e to do (X) (see scifi, Warhammer, mystery) mainly because it feels like a deeply pointless and painful process when there are better solutions for the genre of game in question.
I *love* PF2 but I will never, ever try to hack PF2 to play a toy story like game: I have Nighty Knights for that. I have to physically restrain myself from leaping at those comments and being the annoying guy about alternative RPGs-I *want* people to run and play other games because I really do think they would have more fun doing it that way, but I can't force them to do it.
5e DMs just... Deserve better than endless hacks.
I used to be bothered by those situations too. But I realize it has no real affect on my life. Suggest they play an alternative nicely and then go about your day🤷♂️
If you know the history, every other game is just a hack of D&D. 😏
@@armorclasshero2103 wrong, every other game is a hack of chainmail 8^)
@@tabletopbro that's fair, I just wish for better for DMs out there. I was once trapped in that box!
@@caradine898 chainmail wasn't an rpg. So no.
Yeah I've never talked to an indie rpg promoter who was not an ass about it. 5e does most stuff well enough and gets hardcore numbers folks and narrative players at the same table and system. Until an equally good system capable of doing both and not broken to hell, its just not worth the 20 plus hours of new terms, jargon, vtt updates hacks etc to play something else
Edit; I should add... the reason all the blind indie rpgs reccomendations drive me off as a 5e player is they act like insert x rpg will solve all your problems without realizing that rpg is like a fraction of why people play dnd. And you are left with not 1 system but tens to learn which is a drastic amount of work and splits your diverse players who all want x y or z and you're new game selection only does y.
Is that your actual FLGS?
It’s the store that hosts all of SoCal’s Heroscape tournaments
Ummmm didn’t listen to anything you said but a game from 1843 did it first soooo
But seriously yes to everything you said.
I have your Ironsworn video sitting in my Watch Later queue!
@@tabletopbro did we just become best friends?
What I have seen is a hypercorrection in the 5E space: before the SRD debacle, you either were a 5E-tuber or you covered non-5E material. After that, everyone was pressured not to cover 5E, as if it were a sin against Gygax & Ao. Now, things are coming to a new normal, where you can be a shill for whatever.
Wow, that Tabletop Bro made some good points.
Still not from the 5E faithful tho.
this is a false controversy, yes theres always trolls in any group, but they dont represent anyone
they are re-releasing 5e and this is a fabricated plot to try to get ppl to pay attention to 5e (not 6e) new books, theres nothing to see here
Stunning and brave?
I have been kinda sour on these takes for the past days now so i was a bit surprised you jumped in here to on this topic bro. Hi its been a while hope youre doing well!
I know people get tired of being in negative feelings and it sucks being shot down for liking a game, but as someone who prefers other games over 5e it feels like "youre so brave for playing the most popular and supported games??" I think this comes from a stigma that is sort of supported by these videos of "5e players absolutely refuse to play or even talk about anything else" and it is massively frustrating. But yeah i agree with "speak of the games you like with kindness" to not scare away the 5e players, but people should absolutely get to talk about other games and i dont really like oneshotqesuesters or Blaines reaction of annoyance when people mention other games. (Blaine even calls people who reccomend other games selfish which has me go ?????) But youre right in that you shouldnt judge someone on their choice of game and absolutely not be a dick like who the heck is that gonna help??
hi this has been gnawing on me for a few days now now its probably out of the system.
Glad you feel better lmao
Their videos brought out an annoyance in me towards the elitism of the indie scene. But you're totally right, it's not selfish to suggest another role playing game that's ridiculous. As long as you're not being a dick doing it.
I liked 4e D&D...I'm used to abuse...
Ha!
I unabashedly like DnD. People and their silly, hard, and over evangelical opinions can go pound sand. You don’t like dnd? Cool who cares? Have fun playing PF or whatever. Hating on ppl bc of the hobby they prefer is just stupid.
30mins is too long for this guy? The brain rot of this generation is approaching epic levels. Do you actually play ttrpg’s, or do you watch just TikTok’s about it?
And yet you made it 25 seconds into my video
True bravery is being a FATAL fan.
I think the reason why a lot of people are starting to get a bit of a negative impression of D&D is because of how people are feeling that WOTC are starting to include more and more choices that they feel appeal to a far more casual audience.
It's a sort of repeat of that whole Blizzard "do you guys not have phones" situation from a few years ago. Yes, statistically speaking, mobile game players make up a large - if not majority - share of the market, but the games on them are predatory in nature or are of low quality. People are starting to feel like WOTC are doing things less for the sake of roleplayability and moreso because "wouldn't it be funny if _this_ happened? That's so random!" and it feels out of touch with the more passionate and vocal roleplaying community. I've seen some people call it being "Disneyified" though that might open up a whole other can of worms.
The getting over the “D&D community” video. Is about pervasive in group complaining and to just play what you like. You all should watch it, it’s very clever.
TLDR: NETWORK EFFECTS, YO! That's why Current Edition is The Only Game That Matters.
But 5e is mid tho
yeah who cares about that runequest that guy sounds awful
anyway play SW 2.5 NOW NOW NOW
Hahahaha
I think the big thing is everyone is just trying to replicate core DND, and 5E made the game so accessible to so many people that it's going to take something bigger and better than it to get people to "stop liking it" or switch over. If you squint, Pathfinder and Cairn and OSE and SO MANY other systems are all DND. That's a hard sell for people who already have sunk time and more importantly money into the hobby. Books aren't cheap! You like a different version or ruleset than 5E like Knave or DCC? Hey, me too. Doesn't make it not DND. You can especially see it with the more popular attempts to "dethrone" 5E with Shadowdark and DC20. Awesome, fun systems. Still DND.
You mention playing World of Warcraft and I think there's a great parallel there on many levels: how many MMOs were marketed as "WoW killers?" So many were just like WoW with maybe slightly different mechanics and a new coat of paint, but fundamentally, it was still dungeon crawling and grinding for loot the same as Everquest and all those that came before WoW. Blizzard just made a game that had the broadest appeal, and it's stuck ever since. I loved the absolute fuck out of Wildstar; didn't stop it from dying off like all the rest. Blizzard is also a shit company, so there's that too, I guess.
That’s a super interesting metaphor I never considered
Gonna be real...
What turned me hostile against the 5E community, was how toxic it f***ing was!
I once responded to a comment asking about "homebrew" advice (this was when I still DM'd D&D 5E), and I provided a...lengthy...response, trying to help. At the *bottom* , I provided a few suggests of alternate game systems that exactly did what they were wanting to "hack up" into D&D 5E; I wasn't being hostile, just..."Oh, if you didnt know, this is a few different game systems that also do exactly the suggests I made, its where I borrowed them from in my homebrew."
...and the response was (paraphrasing now, most of it got deleted, because when you call an Aussie certain words, he'll call you a C-word in MANY creative ways, over many sentences!) "Look, I dont wanna play another system! God! Why do you people just pop in here and try to make us play something else? F*** off! D&D is superior!"
And...that was the resounding comments that followed from that. They didnt read what I wrote, they read that person's response, and reacted.
5E'ers are a bunch of cultists who suckled from the 'florida' of WotC, and guzzled down that cool-aid jizzm... I make no attempt now-a-days to hide my contempt for the community, but if someone engages with me peacefully and reasonably, I react in-kind. I will provide my knowledge to questions asked, and I will provide lengthy, but explained reasonings for my points...
Like, for example...
Apparently there's a problem with some DM's not knowing how to handle certain spells in D&D, like Scrying? Speak with Dead? Comprehend Languages? because it messes up the flow of a Mystery they wanna play out...
Well, I wont explain the actions, but there's a Call of Cthulhu adventure module called "Panacea" from Peterson's Abominations, set in the modern day, so the investigators have access to smartphones, the internet, translation apps, all that stuff. Other games may not be your thing, but they might provide the answer to a problem you're having, that doesn't just force you to "ban" a spell, or claim an Anti-Magic Field engulfs the area, or whatever.
Sorry this was wordy,
But as a fellow non-D&D creator, you have 4,970 more subscribers then me, so I wanted to say something, that *might* get heard...LOL!
My dude, you have expressed these same tabletop hipster attitudes in a lot of your Dungeonworld videos, and it didn't come off as a joke. Hoping this means you have grown since then.
To quote 2:53 “it’s me, hi, I’m the problem it’s me”
So, even when I was done giving money to WotC...right after the OGL scandal...also known as GSL 2.0...because that wasn't the first time they did that...I was okay with playing 5E with what I had and other playing and enjoying the game. Especially since they walked it back. Then they sent the Pinkertons after a Magic player. Yeah...I was not really okay with even playing their game after that. Not really at judging others for doing it yet. And all the repeated AI art that showed up. And then they fired people right before Christmas. At this point, ANYONE even PLAYING the game is saying none of that matters. Even if you don't spend money anymore, just playing the game is support of all that. Yeah...I'm judging you pretty hard for that now. And if you play D&D 24, that means you even spent money. And that sends a message to WotC that all the bad things they did really doesn't matter. They can keep doing bad things...and GSL 3.0 WILL be coming.
I mean if you like 5e and you already have the stuff, might as well play it. Wizards doesn't have spies sitting in your house. But I do agree folks should unsub to D&D Beyond and refuse to buy new product.
@@tabletopbro While they may not be spying if I run the game at my home, running the game at a FLGS then there is visibility. Not from just the players in the game itself, but also from people at the store. If I run the game using a VTT, there is usually data collected on what system are run most often and that becomes support. I guess since I haven't had games in private areas in so long, I forget that is an actual option...but Covid kinda broke up all my meet at somebody's house groups. So, I suppose in private area, it's fine.
5e is hard mid. Hundo percent agree.
D&D player here. The indie space's biggest enemy is theirself. I've never been compelled to play because of how toxic everyone is. One thing you have to understand is most people don't care about your game. If people cared they would buy it. The proof is in the numbers. But indie players can't come to grips with they like something that is niche. It's ok to like something is niche, but no one is missing out because they don't like your niche interest. This is why hipsters got memed into an early grave. Hipsters always gave off an air of superiority and everyone else is just laughing at them as were practically begging others to care about their niche interest. These are the type of people that complain that The Acolyte got cancelled, but shows people watch don't get cancelled. At someone point you have to face reality no one cares about what you care about and that the market dictates the survival of a product. When I play D&D I have a plethora of resources at my fingertips and they are available at big and small stores. Can't say the same thing about Dungeon World or Masks without the internet I wouldn't even know about them, but if they were popular meaning people bought and liked them they would not have this issue. At some point they need to look in the mirror that the reason your game hasn't taken off is because no one cares because people buy things they care about. Awww sad, I know.
Also most people who play are not try hard whatevers who care about company politics which is why the OGL scandal didn't actually move the needle for interest. I've been playing for years now and even keep up with everything and found it really hard to care about this so called scandal. I had a hard time caring about people I don't know getting laid off. Because despite what people feel most people are just here to game and meanwhile they are shooting themselves in the foot by being toxic to something that many other people enjoy. If you want to invite someone to a party it's best to invite them with cake and not a bag of shit because the space is primarily a social one indie space is advertising with shit (and I mean their attitudes). Even Ron the Rules Lawyer spends half his time shitting on D&D so I lost interest because he seems to care more about hating on D&D than enjoying his own game. I saw him in your comments yesterday saying even though you don't like Pathfinder at least you both can come together and hate D&D. Sounds like a good way to push away the largest market.
And I have joined some of these other facebook groups and they are pretty toxic and apathetic as well. If I want an answer in a D&D community I have it in a mere few hours but if I post a question in the Pathfinder group (or another indie game) no answer. So it's not exactly welcoming to new players. And who seem to care more about shitting on their biggest rival.
My advice to these systems is they have to keep up with D&D, if D&D is making a book every quarter than they need to make a book every quarter. I looked into Masks and they only 4 books in all the years they have been around. In most spaces that would count them as irrelevant. I think Pathfinder does a good job at keeping up with content but the issue I have with Pathfinder is they have a huge blindspot about where they came from. They spend all this time talking shit about D&D yet they are a D&D spinoff. They wouldn't exist without D&D. So nearly every game in this space of gaming owes their existence to D&D. And if you are in book shelf with D&D the only reason people are going to that section is because of D&D, so in my opinion there really needs to be a feeling of gratitude because that game is the only reason they exist and have any chance of getting noticed vicariously.
5e wouldnt be that bad if they fixed the hit points (should cap at like 20). Combat is just too boring.
Pathfinder 2e and osr are just DND and im tired of pretending theyre not. I dont understand why they need their own category.
Pathfinder 2E is D&D only if you consider D&D 4E to be D&D. Which many people don't. Me included. PF2E is different enough to be it's own thing. Now PF1E,,,yes that is basically D&D 100%. It's why Pathfinder 1E was known has D&D 3.75. But yes, OSR is basically AD&D 2E. But why it's own category? Because in certain customer bases, being attached to WotC now is toxic to your profitability. So OSR is it's own thing. And so is Pathfinder (both 1E and 2E).
Boring combat is what made me seek out other games.
Why does the distinguishing matter? This is the silliest issue lmao
@@tabletopbro I don't think it's different enough to be an alternative, and I think it hurts the hobby when people pitch it as such. To me an alternative to DND is at least dungeon world because it changes the way the game is played foundationally.
I think criticism of DND from the perspective of DND-likes is what makes this hobby / community have a monolith in the first place.
This hobby would be in such a healthier place if white wolf didn't shit the bed, and Vampire the Masquerade was the second biggest game. (Personally, I'd prefer Call of Cthulhu, but beggars can't be choosers). Instead we have pathfinder 2e as the number 2 and I find that to be such a travesty.
I hope you didn't take this as a criticism of you because it wasn't meant that way. It's more of a critique of our community. I agree with your takes most of the time.
@@ColdNapalm42 DND 4e is just DND. It's just more combat focused.
@DiomedesRangue like I said...that is AN opinion...but not the only one. Your opinion is valid...but no more than somebody else's.
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