Power Conditioner Tests: Furman Reference 15i vs Panamax M5500-EX
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2021
- As an audiophile I'm looking to reduce any noise from multiple sources, including power. This video shows the results of the power conditioner's ability to remove EMI (dirty power), using a Greenwave EMI Meter that measures dirty power in millivolts and audibly (speaker).
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Excellent breakdown / review.
From one Ian D to another, hello & thank you! This was very helpful test & review! Having just upgraded my speakers to beautiful Sonus faber Sonnetto's, and my amplifier to a Parasound Hint 6, I have been researching Power Conditioners in order to receive the best possible sound. I had a feeling that the old monicker that you get what you pay for would be true, just as your testing has revealed! Thanks again
Ian D! Enjoy your new speakers! Quality components make a difference given its a serial dependency from source to speakers, and power of course.
Power conditioners have no effect on sound. None at all. If you think about it, it would be terrible if we had to buy overpriced crap from cowboy companies in order to get the best quality sound. All conditioning required is done within the gear you already own.
Interesting and thanks for the video as I head down this path
Thanks. Great reviewing video. 👌✌️
If I'm not mistaken the Furman sells for about $2,500 new. As mentioned by other commenters, power supplies on most modern electronic a/v components will filter out noise on their own. You are obviously free to spend your money as you please, but it does seem like an overkill to pay even a $1,000 for a line conditioner. For instance, Tripp-lite makes a 15 Amp 1800 watt unit that sells for about $250. It doesn't have a fancy case, but essentially will do the same job as the Furman. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for the video and saving me a lot of $.
I would suggest that your Panamax might be defective. I have a 10 year old Panamax Max 5500 and I have a Dr Power EMI detector that are manufactured for Monster Power Demos. I am getting significant noise reduction between the wall outlet and through the Panamax. No doubt there are better devices out there. But so far, I am happy with the Panamax, used in conjunction with Nordost Red Dawn power cords. Incidentally, I found that the power cord that I used between the wall outlet and the Panamax makes a significant difference to the measurements. Being a reputable company, I would not expect Panamax to purposely mislead the public.
Should you use a cord between the Panamax and the wall outlet or just plug the Panamax directly into the wall?
the most recomended brand for bands is furman they have different models they are good i have 2 one per power amps rack and one for mixer and effects rack and every instruments have their own regulator.
Isn’t Furman cleaning up the power on the two “Discrete Symmetrical Power” outlets? Which are balanced I believe? Would have liked to see the data on those two outlets as well.
Furman says they "clean up" the power all outlets whether its DSP or Linearly filtered outlets. From their website: "Discrete symmetrical power with dual screen technology cancels hum-inducing noise from audio and video", while "Linear Filtering Technology (LiFT) for unequaled audio / video clarity". I can't tell you what the difference is.
Is there a way to use oscilloscope to measure variations in this kind of noise?
I wonder if the panamex went through a surge and is no longer filtering/protecting.
Interesting question. Wouldn’t it stop working if something was burnt out? Or error indicators showing?
Very interesting video. I’m no electrician but it’s weird to me of why just plugging in either the Furman or Panamax into the wall would impact the noise (ever so slightly)?? You would think it would not do anything since the purpose is for it to filter only those things plugged into the unit itself. Thanks for doing this video.
I am an electrician and you are absolutely correct.
Greenwave also makes dirty electricity filters that plug into the wall. Since most outlets on the same circuit typically read close to the same reading with the the meter that he used. If I have a circuit that's noisy (most of them are), I can plug one of the filters into the outlet that I'm testing, OR any other outlet that's on the same circuit, and the meter reading will always go down. I would imagine that the filters utilize a series of capacitors (though I honestly don't know), and that the surge suppressors do as well. For that reason, I'm not surprised at all that the surge protector reduces noise on the entire circuit.
@@stevenp.sparks2953Surge Protectors use Varistors which are connected parallel to load. If some Voltage surge happens varistor gets low resistance, so the surge goes through varistor instead of the load saving it. Varistors do nothing to the noise.
I'd be interested in seeing what the plug-in Greenwave filter by itself does,
Maybe time for another video?
@@iand8548 They are cheap enough, and if your video was done at home you place need additional filtering. I use them and they work well, especially on circuits which are used for electronics.
Doesn't most of this AC noise get filtered out by the transformer in the amp when its converted to DC? And then again since most modern gear has a DC filter as well? I've had few conditioners over the years and never heard any difference... maybe my AC is already faily good...
Yes most modern gear should have a EMI filter that does remove some noise both ways, in and out of the device. Whether it does a good enough job where you can hear it is variable, and based on a number of factors, such as your AC power. I found the Panamax did nothing for noise, and the Furman does and from what I’ve seen on other videos, Shunyata does as well. I heard a reduction in the noise floor, hence more detail, harshness went away too.
Yes ... "Filtered" is the key word. But like any filter there will be parasitic losses (that's why they call inductors 'chokes'). As the demand for power increases, the filter will start to limit more DC through the circuit. The same goes for fancy power conditioners that are nothing more than surge protectors with filters. But some are much more than that. Some can actually increase power as power amps call for it. Such is the case with the AQ Niagara line of conditioners.
A little. This was the prevailing assumption. I know a top amp manufacturer that engineers a power conditioner into it's amp (six figures). The power supply is huge so by your logic, there should be no reason for this.
so what brands really work and do the job the way they post to for audiophiles
Complete waste of money. Take this from an analog electronics designer with dozens of power supply designs and 4o year experience. I would bet everything I own on it that no one could A/B this stuff accurately.
Forget it. Emi filtering is done for ages, in audio. That what it is made for, they call in a emi filter...for a reason. It is a Emi filter. Then the power goes throught the trannsformer . If you could tap the sigal there with your emi meter, you see fantastic low noise too. They, the moneygrabbers, give you solutions for something that doesnt exist. Why? They make big money with it and give the sensitive audiophiles a good, secure feeling. We got you covered, do not be afraid. Fear of missing out something. Real engineers with the right equipment measure these things and they all fail, at best these things don,t make it worse. Audiopiles deny placebo effects. Trickery between your ears and yet, they fail the blindtest. There goes 'it makes sooo much difference " out of yhe window. If the difference is night and day, asthey often claim, why is blind test so hard then? The proof is in the pudding, you just have to see it.
Looking for a top of the line power conditioner for my pc as the noise causes some mouse lag at my house something good but affordable as well.
Not my area of expertise. suggest you speak with a PC expert.
PC power supply is 100% SMPS that is not sensitive to outlet noise. Also some mouse lag can be caused by a number of reasons, and no one has any relationship to power supply.
I was expecting the panamax to do no filtering at all on the high current outlets and other outlets to be filtered.
I think the Furman model with all the Orange outlets on the back is actually the Furman Elite-15 PF i
There are two models, both with orange outlets. Mine says "Reference" on it. The other does not, and is known as the Elite series as you correctly stated.
Ya, but how did the music sound with the Furman outlets used?
hi - Lower noise floor/quieter, hence more detail.
@@iand8548 Thank you!
Don't amps and other electronic kit include a power supply whose purpose is to 'clean up the power'?
Thank you for this. I will not be pursuing the Panamax
You should have some load on the outputs of the device!
In reality, cleaning up "dirty electric" is usually negligible to zero in the vast majority of so-called power conditioners. I have an expensive Furman PL-PLUS DMC Power Conditioner and the dirty electric signal in my wall outlet is 56 mV and any outlet on the Furman itself is worse at 169 mV! So yeah, according to my Greenwave EMI Dirty Electricity Meter, the Furman is NOT cleaning up the dirty electricity.
Intersting test. While the test reference is questionable. What is the quality/accuracy of a Greenwave EMI Meter? The fun part is, the results. Thanks Ian.
Thanks for your comment ScottNJ. no doubt the quality of the Greenwave is unknown. All things being equal at the start of the test, comparing one device to another was a simplistic measure of EMI reduction.
If the measuring device is crappy, could it not be creating some of the noise that it is displaying? Though I suspect that would pretty constant amongst different measures.
@@dr.paulj.watson4582 I re-watched the video. I'm an optimist. I'm dubious the meter introduced noise. Lets assume the results for the Furman hi-current outlets is indicative of the test meter's quality and designed purpose. Both of these conditioners are upscale devises. Begs questions about what exactly is the Greenwave measuring.
Panamax, and Furman, the same company, just as JBL, Revel, Infinity, Harmon Kardon, Crown, Lexicon, AKG, DBX, Martin, Soundcraft, and Mark Levison, are all owned by Samsung since 2017. Small long, historical audio companies from the United States are just about all out of business except a few.
While this is true, what's the impact on their products? There are multiple reasons companies sell (get acquired). Do they still produce products that meet their original company vision/goals? Did the owners really care once they sold? Just like VW, Audi, Porsche, Lambo, Bentley, etc., while they share platforms/components, there are differences in build, materials and price, etc., which comes down to independence needed to warrant their market niche/sales and growth.
@@iand8548 Most acquired out of bankruptcy for the history of the brand, most used for different brands for the auto industry, and most have eliminated home audio products. Even B&W Speakers of England went under, now owned by private equality group in California.
Why were two of your bank lights off?
not sure, made this video a while back.
I just bought Panamax m5400 one and I am getting more noise from it. Why? I want to return it, but I don't know which power conditioner to get
Hi Joseph, don’t know why but look at Furman. I know that worked for me. I would think there are other brands too that reduce noise like Shunyata.
Try Airlink transformers from the UK. They will do stuff for the US as well.
@@johnshaw359 hi have you tried Airlink before?
You wasted your money. I am an electronics design engineer with 40 years of experience. All electronic devices have a power supply and by the very nature of the supply's design EMI and RFI are filtered to extremely low levels. The manufacturers of power conditioners play this game of creating a problem that doesnt exist (EMI/RFI is a problem) and then selling you a solution. One of the favourite tricks is to add noise into a power line and then show what a great job their product does at eliminating it, what they dont show you is that most electronic equipment would eliminate the noise in the power supply anyways. It is electronic snake oil. Its like adding an expensive fuel filter top your cars fuel line, you already have one so why pay for another one. The same goes for these ridiculous claims about power cords and interconnects. They have no effect on the end audio playback.
I have the same Panamax and it works great...tv is like I got an upgrade...my av sounds way better.....clear and airy.....
One is issue is you are comparing an old used item that has been in your system for quite some time to a brand new out of the box component. There is no guarantee that in those years that Panamax hasn't taken a voltage or current spike, damaging the components enough to render them unable to do their job. Not enough to kill the unit, but maybe make it less usable. That's why you are supposed to change out surge protectors every so often. Get a fresh unit and do the test again. I would love to see if the new unit performs the same.
Thanks for the comment. What you state is possible, but I never heard of changing out surge protectors 'every so often' because of wear and tear. The Panamax manual talks about all the protection circuitry, but nothing about replacing because of age/worn components. It was working as per the manual when I tested it.
@@iand8548 even with normal surge protects its known that the components can wear out.
@@chopshop523 True
Every 2 years is what most say
I have several Tripp Lite Isobars that I use on my audio gear. What I know is, each time I use a brand new one, it sounds crappy.
However, I’ve learned that all electronics needs time to burn-in. Within two hours, you can hear a slight improvement.
I can often hear a palatable sound after 4 days of use. It often takes a week hear my ideal sound.
I suggest that you give electronic products a fair and proper burn-in or you’ll never find any product that works.
I don’t own that outlet-line-tester but, I’ve come across products that has audibly reduced my ground noise level to a point that I’ve perfected my system.
I have owned this unit for years.
@@iand8548 I forgot to add, when I added Furutech NCF Clear Line plug-in onto the Tripp Lite, I noticed more improvements.
That isn't learning, that's misinformation.
Wow! So Furman>Panamax, or is it just these units?
Hi - I only test these two units, not an indication of others they make.
Even if the panamax does filter well, isn't it still very good surge protector? Lol
Furman is 2k unit.... does anyone know a reasonable price unit?
Rich - Email me if you want to know where I purchased mine at a more reasonable cost.
Rich Mcdonald...Try $3130.00 as of 2/2022
You really don't need these sake oil crap. Audio quality isn't affected by the AC voltage because everything is converted to dc first
Furman bought Panamax, so I suppose no one told them that Panamax doesn't work. Ridiculous!
Of course, it's the same company, so…
Well the Furman is $3,000 it better do something :)
So should have the Panamax for what it cost!
For 30K I will build you a power conditioner that spec wise crushes everything. Does it improve you sound, not one bit but it will have an impressive price tag and specs.
@@exponentmantissa5598 you're envy and insecurity is "showing" 🤣
@@BumpNrun69 The audiophile world consists of so much snake oil that its best to remain dismissive of marketing claims and only buy upon hearing actual improvements and only if those differences are tangible rather than subtle or better still buy from companies that cater primarily to recording studio's. I'd take the word of a recording engineer over the opinions of someone who would claim to hear the differences in sound quality of cryogenically frozen interconnects. On the snobbery scale audiophiles out compete the wine snobs and by quite a large margin....
Bad performance
Bad....!!
You are trying to solve a problem that does not exist. All of these so called power cleaner/conditioners don't do anything to the signal, if anything they degrade. If your gear can repel the little EMI that maybe in your mains get better gear. Almos all decent gear these days will have filtering or internal regulated power supplies, making these useless and worthless. Check out ASR for full measurements. But this is at best a waste of money. also a dose of reality does not hurt either. This cat of product are the profit makers for the industry don't get duped.
Not true my friend. I have a relatively inexpensive Monster wall plug that I use with my guitar amp. Without it, I get noise coming from the speaker. When plugged into the Monster, significant white noise reduction. I’m no electrician but my ears do not lie. Very audible difference.
@@geoffreysmith4618 A guitar Amp is a PA system very noisy and susceptible. Stereo and HomeTheater these things dont do anything. Why, all 2 ch and HT gear uses regulated power supplies.
@@IsmaelMartinezPR You haven't a clue. You think cheap ass Home Theater receivers have fully regulated power supplies? Lol
what a sneak oil...
watch the relevant professional from audiosciencereview by a PHD engineer do it right...
The more these nuts spend on it the more they think it works. I a a design engineer with 40 years experience design in electronics and I have done more power supplies than I can remember. You would have to be extremely incompetent to build a piece of home audio/theatre gear that cant handle power filtering. I notice that Ian D says EMI is dirty power, no it isnt, EMI is Electro Magnetic Interference and it comes from a wide variety of sources. That big piece of iron in your transformers, both on the line and in the equipment is a an incredibly efficient low pass filter.
and you believe his little charts, without witnessing one live test by him, right? 🐑🐑😂
What would a PHD Engineer know compared to my expensive gold plated audiophile ears next you will be telling me that a recording engineer agrees with him and somehow knows better that the expansive marketing claims made by ultra expensive component manufacturers. ASR is an informative site that dispels most audiophile bullcrap.
@@exponentmantissa5598 thanks for your clarification. I stand corrected, EMI - is as stated in the reply. Either way, just demonstrating what comes out of the wall affect the sound you get out of your audio and picture out of your video system.