At 53 I ended up divorced and started going to the LDS dances for older single people. They had married couple chaperons at these dances. It was like going back to high school. The chaperones definitely did NOT stop the sleeping around that I saw go on. 🤣🤣🤣
Chaperones? Like singles can't be trusted? This church always infantilizes members unless they become leaders. Nobody is allowed to think for themselves or be adults. I saw so many single women who couldn't make a decision without crying to their bishop. But they're taught that in the church!
@@SilentThundersnow when I went to visit my older sister in the Seattle area they were over the older single activities so they talked me into going to a fireside for the singles. A single guy was hitting on my sister big time. My very Mormon brother in law hated the calling. 🤣 He is now a temple worker at 78 and loves it
Makes you wonder why that single guy thought he might get lucky with a married woman - and it’s ok to try it. (Joseph Smith got away with it!) When I was a TBM I was shocked at the affairs going on. In one year in my ward, two marriages broke up because home teachers fell for single women they visited. A friend in her 30s moved to NYC from SLC to get a fresh start after she had affairs with 1) her stake president 2) a man in the tabernacle choir 3) her UNCLE. Don’t know how that “fresh start” worked out for her.
I am so impressed with Joel’s humility and bravery to talk about his time as a bishop and what he has learned since. I am so grateful for his willingness to add to this discussion! Thank you!
Wow. What a great episode. I left mormonism 35 years ago this month when my bishop called me in to discuss repentence while I was trying to figure out being a single mom to a newborn when I was 19. I went off on my bishop and told him my opinions about Fanny Alger, temple ties to masonry, feminism, separation of church and state in utah and my support of the right to choose. Then I hit the door. Even though I left such a long time ago with no regrets, this episode helped me unpack some of the things I went through. Many thanks to all of you on the panel!
I was raised Catholic. We just had to go into the spooky confessional booth and confess our sins to the parish priest. He sat behind a veil (Not that veil). The conversation was pretty simple. I told the priest my “sins”. He asked Are you sorry? I said Yep. He said ok say 12 Hail Mary’s and all your sins are forgiven. I said Thanks Father. I left the both. It was maybe a 45 second conversation. No probing questions. Don’t get me wrong I hated that booth.
Anonymous confession removes the shame and provides an outlet for people to talk through their concerns but we agree the teaching that you are sinful or bad is still harmful. Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for a great show! I truly enjoyed it and learned a lot. Having left the church after nearly 50 years of membership, it’s embarrassing, and shocking to realize how little I knew about the basic sex needs of our youth. I’m grateful I’m female so was never called as a bishop to cause potential harm from my lack of knowledge. This topic was timely and much needed. Thank you to you all!
Many of us left the church because the teachings of the leaders went against our personal moral beliefs. We are supposed to have free agency and the Holy Ghost to guide us, but ultimately the church wants us to ignore our inner moral compass and simply obey. If you are a critical thinker with a strong sense of personal morality who isn’t willing to outsource your moral compass, it’s very difficult to stay. That combined with the constant judgement and being made to feel that we will never be worthy is harmful to our mental health. Religion should be uplifting and give you a sense of peace, love, and belonging. Going to church just made med feel angry, resentful and depresses. When I was 14 or 15 my mother said she understood and that I didn’t have to go anymore. That was an act of love on her part and I have always been grateful. She struggled with her feelings about the church her whole life. It was painful to watch. I wish she could have given herself the same permission to let go that she gave me.
Thank you for this podcast. You are one of my favorites! What came to mind during your discussion was this. Confess personal (what we were taught as active Mormons) sin and get horrific punishment. Confess child abuse and the church attorneys have your back. BUT, the victims get punished!
I'm so glad for this awesome panel. I appreciate understanding more about the challenges. I think, having grown up conservative evangelical, we need similar healing from spiritual abuse.
I am in therapy. I have no idea what my therapists views are on anything political or religious. He's very good at keeping his ideals out of things. My med manager in contrast has made it very clear her leanings and it made me really uncomfortable.
I had a doctor who told me to drink only water because Bednar said not to drink your calories and since that was coming from an apostle we could count on it.
Awesome episode! When the bishop sent me to a therapist for depression- I got two sessions. He didn't think the church should pay for more than that. Two sessions should have been enough.... apparently
I am so happy my daughters are choosing to leave the church as they hit YW. I am even more worried about my one daughter who attends YW occasionally. She already knows to leave, any time the stake pres. speaks. I need to make sure she knows to not have one on one interviews with bishopric. Thanks for this video.
I left the church silently just because I didn't think I could stay around any longer without being excommunicated for what I knew, not for anything I had done. And I didn''t want to be embarrassed by how people might have thought about me. I grew up in an organization that had little respect for boundries, and that was how I was, so I projected my lack on my fellow Mormons.
Fantastic discussion!!! Thank you so much. I could listen to Natasha for hours. And I bet Joel was an awesome bishop. It’s the church SYSTEM that is messed up!
I am so grateful I didn’t grow up in Utah. The 1940’s 50’s was also different, and the east coast (No. VA and a short time in NJ) was better. Our family was good friends with Esther Peterson’s family, and we had many of friends who were not LDS. My education, elementary school through grad school, was in the east. What a breath of fresh air from Cache Valley, UT, where I live now.
All exmo's have to walk the "hall of shame", admitting our mistakes is healing for everyone. Thank you for being brutally honest. That's hard to do with one person, but for random people on the internet, wow. Just know that when we admit our mistakes, it begins a healing for everyone. Thank you.
Natasha is amazing, always a much needed voice of reason and validation to remind us all that the church’s expectations re the “law of chastity” are not normal or reasonable. Thank you to Joel for sharing your experience and your insights. As you say, so many people who cause harm in this situation are themselves harmed by decisions made by old men in ivory towers (literally and figuratively) who don’t see or have to deal with the fall out of their decisions.
This past Sunday, January 7, 2024 the Provo Edgemont South Stake had a youth meeting with an area seventy during Stake Conference where parents weren't allowed to attend. " 8-9:30am - YOUTH Session - those invited to attend this special youth session: ALL Youth age 11-18 (including those who will just barely be starting youth and up thru the Seniors in HS) ONLY Adults invited - Stake Presidency, Bishops, Stake YM & YW Presidents, and Ward Young Women Presidents". I find it reprehensible to forbid parents to attend a meeting with their children.
We were out of town so we couldn't attend. Parents weren't allowed so the people I've talked to don't know and leaders won't say anything more than it was a very inspirational meeting. 🤷🏼♀️
All of this also begs to question the system of lay, volunteer clergy. A ‘professional’ being paid, would be required to go through training. In the 21st Century, the training could include some basic psychology best practices. When you get volunteers, you cannot expect them to complete as much, or any, training. It seems like the church in general, is CHEAP. They use volunteer staff for most of the work of running the church, and they require members to give 10% of their gross income whether they can afford it or not, they use volunteer salesmen (missionaries) to gain more ‘customers’ (members) who will in turn give 10% of their money to the church. It’s a scam. And now with the church having a billion and a half $ or more, it is downright offensive and unethical. And these are the organizations that the govt. allows to not pay taxes?
Couldn’t agree more. The church is run by businessmen and businessmen know the way to increase profits is to reduce costs and the church has continued to do that through free labor, limited charitable giving, more wards per chapel, raise mission cost etc. It is a tax free business free from discrimination laws and taxes! This needs to stop!
Question: Isn’t spiritual abuse also psychological abuse? Ie, if you tell someone they’re not worthy, doesn’t that also effect their self esteem and healthy psychology? Good point, Natasha, about all Bishops (even the many good men) are being abusive to to their members, simply because the system requires it.
The outside world will never understand how controlled the pulpit is in that corporation. When I heard his testimony on why he's stepping down and out, a few things crossed my mind. The person filming was in the front row and I'm thinking that must have been his wife or another family member. The fact that he said all that he did, because that just NEVER happens, makes me think that his counselors knew and probably are in agreement with whatever he said. I believe that most of the ward knows what it's about. I believe he was speaking not only for himself, but for a number of people.
So much unnecessary trauma is put on Church youth; and that trauma echoes forward for decades. Later, the most-compliant youth become Church leaders for the next generation; and the cycle continues. This is not trivial; the presence or absence of life's joy stands at the pinnacle of today's Mormonish discussion.
I can’t believe Bishops are ok with them being a man in a small office with a minor . Yet when missionary come to your home or for that matter home teachers . Have to have a women with them if your a single woman. So WHY? Is this ok. Smh😢
Hi Natasha! I love you! So happy to see you! You guys, am I crazy? I am wondering why I'm the only skeptic. Has he been vetted by anyone? Where are all the people in the chapel? Something seems off. Maybe it's my untrusting exMormon self.
Mormonism is not the gospel of Christ. This is all about playing church in a corporate religion. Jesus would be discussed with all of this being practiced in His name. Book of Hebrews states that He is our Prophet, Apostle, and High Priest, the only Mediator between us and God. Organiized religion is not necessary and only serves to control people.
Natasha, I opted out because I didn’t want to outsource such a serious subject to someone I don’t know. On the day of these maturation program, I have my kids the choice of me teach them or the school. My kids got much better information.
Good for you! It’s great to see parents who take active roles in teaching their kids this important subject. I went with my son to the maturation and then boldly told him when it was over if he had any questions he could ask his mom!
It always puzzles mainstream Protestants that Mormons show no regard for 1st Timothy where a bishop is the husband of one wife and the workman is worthy of his hire.
LUKE 17:2 (The Holy Bible NIV) It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. I don't know where it is in MORMON scriptures to hang someone who identifies with homosexuality. It could be there, but I couldn't find it. However, we do know the destructiveness with how things are handled in the corporation. If you're a Bible believer (not MORMON) we are taught to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Does everyone do that? Sadly, no. But that's what we are taught. MORMONS are not Christians and they have a completely different script. What the Lord is saying, is that this is very serious. It's serious business to cause someone, especially a youngster, to offend. There is one thing worse than going to hell; it's going to hell and having your son or daughter say to you, "Mom/Dad, I am here because I followed you." "Little ones" can also apply to those disciples who are new in the Christian faith. Any teaching that encourages worldliness is wrong. I'm not talking about Mormons. You (on the panel) are not believers / followers in Jesus Christ, so I am not talking about you. There are many MORMONS that think they've been taught Christianity, but that's not what they were taught. They were ruled by MORMONISM laws. I am merely speaking to those who (like myself) didn't know that MORMONISM wasn't Christianity. I thought it was when I was in the corporation. I just wanted to make that distinction. Best wishes to all of you.
![ARGENTINA vs. CHILE [3-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 7](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/De3AWmXzhuA/mqdefault.jpg)
At 53 I ended up divorced and started going to the LDS dances for older single people. They had married couple chaperons at these dances. It was like going back to high school. The chaperones definitely did NOT stop the sleeping around that I saw go on. 🤣🤣🤣
Chaperones? Like singles can't be trusted? This church always infantilizes members unless they become leaders. Nobody is allowed to think for themselves or be adults. I saw so many single women who couldn't make a decision without crying to their bishop. But they're taught that in the church!
@@SilentThundersnow when I went to visit my older sister in the Seattle area they were over the older single activities so they talked me into going to a fireside for the singles. A single guy was hitting on my sister big time. My very Mormon brother in law hated the calling. 🤣 He is now a temple worker at 78 and loves it
Makes you wonder why that single guy thought he might get lucky with a married woman - and it’s ok to try it. (Joseph Smith got away with it!) When I was a TBM I was shocked at the affairs going on. In one year in my ward, two marriages broke up because home teachers fell for single women they visited. A friend in her 30s moved to NYC from SLC to get a fresh start after she had affairs with 1) her stake president 2) a man in the tabernacle choir 3) her UNCLE. Don’t know how that “fresh start” worked out for her.
I love hearing from Natasha
I am so impressed with Joel’s humility and bravery to talk about his time as a bishop and what he has learned since. I am so grateful for his willingness to add to this discussion! Thank you!
He is a great friend and a better man!
Grown ass Rebecca saving little Rebecca makes me so happy. What a great thing to visualize!
Believe me I fantasize about this all the time and I think we all wish we could change the past!
This is actually a great technique for “reparenting” yourself as a way to address childhood trauma.
❤ Rebecca!!!!!!
Wow. What a great episode. I left mormonism 35 years ago this month when my bishop called me in to discuss repentence while I was trying to figure out being a single mom to a newborn when I was 19.
I went off on my bishop and told him my opinions about Fanny Alger, temple ties to masonry, feminism, separation of church and state in utah and my support of the right to choose.
Then I hit the door. Even though I left such a long time ago with no regrets, this episode helped me unpack some of the things I went through.
Many thanks to all of you on the panel!
Thank you so much and it just shows that even when we leave the church for 35 years there is still a part of us that is Mormonish!
I was raised Catholic. We just had to go into the spooky confessional booth and confess our sins to the parish priest. He sat behind a veil (Not that veil). The conversation was pretty simple. I told the priest my “sins”. He asked Are you sorry? I said Yep. He said ok say 12 Hail Mary’s and all your sins are forgiven. I said Thanks Father. I left the both. It was maybe a 45 second conversation. No probing questions. Don’t get me wrong I hated that booth.
Anonymous confession removes the shame and provides an outlet for people to talk through their concerns but we agree the teaching that you are sinful or bad is still harmful. Thanks for the comment!
I absolutely loved this episode. So much great insight and information. But super neat to see a former bishop's perspective ❤❤❤
One of THE BEST podcasts I have ever listened to!
I admire all of you and your work! 👏😀 BRAVO!
Thanks for a great show! I truly enjoyed it and learned a lot. Having left the church after nearly 50 years of membership, it’s embarrassing, and shocking to realize how little I knew about the basic sex needs of our youth. I’m grateful I’m female so was never called as a bishop to cause potential harm from my lack of knowledge.
This topic was timely and much needed.
Thank you to you all!
I am SO happy to be out of this toxic environment! Wish I had done it years ago!
Many of us left the church because the teachings of the leaders went against our personal moral beliefs. We are supposed to have free agency and the Holy Ghost to guide us, but ultimately the church wants us to ignore our inner moral compass and simply obey. If you are a critical thinker with a strong sense of personal morality who isn’t willing to outsource your moral compass, it’s very difficult to stay. That combined with the constant judgement and being made to feel that we will never be worthy is harmful to our mental health. Religion should be uplifting and give you a sense of peace, love, and belonging. Going to church just made med feel angry, resentful and depresses. When I was 14 or 15 my mother said she understood and that I didn’t have to go anymore. That was an act of love on her part and I have always been grateful. She struggled with her feelings about the church her whole life. It was painful to watch. I wish she could have given herself the same permission to let go that she gave me.
Beautiful. So well said.
Mostly all the church cares about is your money.. as long as you keep forking over the dough they don't really care about anything else at all.
Thank you for this podcast. You are one of my favorites! What came to mind during your discussion was this.
Confess personal (what we were taught as active Mormons) sin and get horrific punishment.
Confess child abuse and the church attorneys have your back. BUT, the victims get punished!
I'm so glad for this awesome panel. I appreciate understanding more about the challenges. I think, having grown up conservative evangelical, we need similar healing from spiritual abuse.
I am in therapy. I have no idea what my therapists views are on anything political or religious. He's very good at keeping his ideals out of things. My med manager in contrast has made it very clear her leanings and it made me really uncomfortable.
I had a doctor who told me to drink only water because Bednar said not to drink your calories and since that was coming from an apostle we could count on it.
Awesome episode! When the bishop sent me to a therapist for depression- I got two sessions. He didn't think the church should pay for more than that. Two sessions should have been enough.... apparently
Thank you. This is so helpful in so many ways.
Glad it was helpful!
I am so happy my daughters are choosing to leave the church as they hit YW. I am even more worried about my one daughter who attends YW occasionally. She already knows to leave, any time the stake pres. speaks. I need to make sure she knows to not have one on one interviews with bishopric. Thanks for this video.
I left the church silently just because I didn't think I could stay around any longer without being excommunicated for what I knew, not for anything I had done. And I didn''t want to be embarrassed by how people might have thought about me. I grew up in an organization that had little respect for boundries, and that was how I was, so I projected my lack on my fellow Mormons.
Thanks for another great show!
We love doing it!
Fantastic discussion!!! Thank you so much.
I could listen to Natasha for hours.
And I bet Joel was an awesome bishop.
It’s the church SYSTEM that is messed up!
I imagine it’s the hardest calling in the church. That’s where the rubber hits the road.
It can be brutal and wonderful, but it is a conditioning to be a boss.
Important and insightful discussion
Judging fellow humans is difficult for people who genuinely care for their “flock”.
This is the best conversations I’ve seen in a long time. Thank you so much
Wow, thank you!
I love this therapist. And you guys are quickly becoming one of my favorite podcasts
And you are quickly becoming our favorite listener with comments like that! Lol
I am so grateful I didn’t grow up in Utah. The 1940’s 50’s was also different, and the east coast (No. VA and a short time in NJ) was better. Our family was good friends with Esther Peterson’s family, and we had many of friends who were not LDS. My education, elementary school through grad school, was in the east. What a breath of fresh air from Cache Valley, UT, where I live now.
Great conversation! I’m really enjoying your content.
Glad to hear it!
All exmo's have to walk the "hall of shame", admitting our mistakes is healing for everyone. Thank you for being brutally honest. That's hard to do with one person, but for random people on the internet, wow. Just know that when we admit our mistakes, it begins a healing for everyone. Thank you.
Excellent podcast, by the way. Great discussion.
Thanks for listening
Great podcast! 😊
Fantastic episode. Thank you so much Mormonish ❤❤
Natasha is amazing, always a much needed voice of reason and validation to remind us all that the church’s expectations re the “law of chastity” are not normal or reasonable. Thank you to Joel for sharing your experience and your insights. As you say, so many people who cause harm in this situation are themselves harmed by decisions made by old men in ivory towers (literally and figuratively) who don’t see or have to deal with the fall out of their decisions.
Great discussion!
Thank you! We enjoyed it as well!
This past Sunday, January 7, 2024 the Provo Edgemont South Stake had a youth meeting with an area seventy during Stake Conference where parents weren't allowed to attend.
" 8-9:30am - YOUTH Session - those invited to attend this special youth session:
ALL Youth age 11-18 (including those who will just barely be starting youth and up thru the Seniors in HS)
ONLY Adults invited - Stake Presidency, Bishops, Stake YM & YW Presidents, and Ward Young Women Presidents".
I find it reprehensible to forbid parents to attend a meeting with their children.
Agreed! Did you learn what was said in the meeting?
We were out of town so we couldn't attend. Parents weren't allowed so the people I've talked to don't know and leaders won't say anything more than it was a very inspirational meeting. 🤷🏼♀️
Ditto, Rebecca; with sons I had no idea the male on male semi abuse happened via “authority”.
Great conversation!
NO WOMAN IN MORMON CULT GETS TO SAY WHAT GOD IS SAYING! WTH?! NEVER HAVE THEY EVER HELD PRIESTHOOD KEYS!! We are Worthy! We are Loved. We are Enough!
All of this also begs to question the system of lay, volunteer clergy. A ‘professional’ being paid, would be required to go through training. In the 21st Century, the training could include some basic psychology best practices. When you get volunteers, you cannot expect them to complete as much, or any, training. It seems like the church in general, is CHEAP. They use volunteer staff for most of the work of running the church, and they require members to give 10% of their gross income whether they can afford it or not, they use volunteer salesmen (missionaries) to gain more ‘customers’ (members) who will in turn give 10% of their money to the church. It’s a scam. And now with the
church having a billion and a half $ or more, it is downright offensive and unethical. And these are the organizations that the govt. allows to not pay taxes?
Couldn’t agree more. The church is run by businessmen and businessmen know the way to increase profits is to reduce costs and the church has continued to do that through free labor, limited charitable giving, more wards per chapel, raise mission cost etc. It is a tax free business free from discrimination laws and taxes! This needs to stop!
Question: Isn’t spiritual abuse also psychological abuse? Ie, if you tell someone they’re not worthy, doesn’t that also effect their self esteem and healthy psychology? Good point, Natasha, about all Bishops (even the many good men) are being abusive to to their members, simply because the system requires it.
The outside world will never understand how controlled the pulpit is in that corporation. When I heard his testimony on why he's stepping down and out, a few things crossed my mind. The person filming was in the front row and I'm thinking that must have been his wife or another family member. The fact that he said all that he did, because that just NEVER happens, makes me think that his counselors knew and probably are in agreement with whatever he said. I believe that most of the ward knows what it's about. I believe he was speaking not only for himself, but for a number of people.
Dilemma indeed.
So much unnecessary trauma is put on Church youth; and that trauma echoes forward for decades. Later, the most-compliant youth become Church leaders for the next generation; and the cycle continues. This is not trivial; the presence or absence of life's joy stands at the pinnacle of today's Mormonish discussion.
Agreed!
Double Ditto.
I can’t believe Bishops are ok with them being a man in a small office with a minor .
Yet when missionary come to your home or for that matter home teachers . Have to have a women with them if your a single woman. So WHY? Is this ok. Smh😢
Great point
Hi Natasha! I love you! So happy to see you!
You guys, am I crazy? I am wondering why I'm the only skeptic. Has he been vetted by anyone?
Where are all the people in the chapel?
Something seems off.
Maybe it's my untrusting exMormon self.
We have vetted him and verified he was the bishop in Jacksonville, Mississippi from the church’s membership tools, he’s for real.
HIPPA laws?
Mormonism is not the gospel of Christ. This is all about playing church in a corporate religion. Jesus would be discussed with all of this being practiced in His name. Book of Hebrews states that He is our Prophet, Apostle, and High Priest, the only Mediator between us and God. Organiized religion is not necessary and only serves to control people.
'Sup?
Natasha, I opted out because I didn’t want to outsource such a serious subject to someone I don’t know.
On the day of these maturation program, I have my kids the choice of me teach them or the school. My kids got much better information.
Good for you! It’s great to see parents who take active roles in teaching their kids this important subject. I went with my son to the maturation and then boldly told him when it was over if he had any questions he could ask his mom!
Yay Rebecca. Yay Natasha. ❤ u 2. Power on.
It always puzzles mainstream Protestants that Mormons show no regard for 1st Timothy where a bishop is the husband of one wife and the workman is worthy of his hire.
The church doesn’t even pay its full time staff equivalent pay to the secular world!
Natasha , why would you still be a member, if you hadn’t been excommunicated?
LUKE 17:2 (The Holy Bible NIV) It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin.
I don't know where it is in MORMON scriptures to hang someone who identifies with homosexuality. It could be there, but I couldn't find it. However, we do know the destructiveness with how things are handled in the corporation.
If you're a Bible believer (not MORMON) we are taught to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Does everyone do that? Sadly, no. But that's what we are taught. MORMONS are not Christians and they have a completely different script.
What the Lord is saying, is that this is very serious. It's serious business to cause someone, especially a youngster, to offend. There is one thing worse than going to hell; it's going to hell and having your son or daughter say to you, "Mom/Dad, I am here because I followed you."
"Little ones" can also apply to those disciples who are new in the Christian faith. Any teaching that encourages worldliness is wrong. I'm not talking about Mormons.
You (on the panel) are not believers / followers in Jesus Christ, so I am not talking about you. There are many MORMONS that think they've been taught Christianity, but that's not what they were taught. They were ruled by MORMONISM laws. I am merely speaking to those who (like myself) didn't know that MORMONISM wasn't Christianity. I thought it was when I was in the corporation.
I just wanted to make that distinction. Best wishes to all of you.