Hello there! I was at BYU 1980-85. My freshman year I lived in Helaman Halls. The floor RA would tell us scandalous stories about gay men meeting up at the Wilkinson Center basement bathrooms. I remembered being both horrified and intrigued. My junior year I had several male friends who were gay and we just didn't talk about it. We would go out on group dates (usually 3 girls and 2 very cute guys) and sit together during a movie at the Smith building. It was fun and I had very fond memories. Forty years later I have multiple family members identify as gay. Tonight's podcast has made me realize that I have evolved from a 19 year old freshman girl who was encouraged to relish in the scandal of what was probably a sting operation at the Wilkinson center to a 62 year old aunt and great aunt who adores all her nieces and nephews whether in the church or out, whether gay or straight. Thank you to all the members of this episode.
Not only did I cry repeatedly watching this- because these are 5 of my dearest friends (yes I too was a cleaver! ) But I wasn't expecting to appear in the photo reel- I'm between Mark in yellow and mitch in blue. I asked all these guys then and now. And yes-i think everyone suspected but it was simply not talked about them. (Also, I do know someone who went thru the electroshock therapy while we were there-Cam Clarke. He talks about it in his one man show- the video mat still be on YT. It's hilarious and heartbreaking. ) You know I love you all so much. Always have, always will. 💋 💋💋💋💋
Another stellar episode, Landon and Rebecca! You were able to give voices and faces to all the stories that we hear about those ugly years at BYU. These are the stories that need to be documented for history, and you made it happen! Thank you.
I think there needs to be a compilation of these stories written in a book. Similar to the witnesses of the book of mormon. Having witnesses to this trauma and hate woule be very moving
Thanks for sharing y’all. I went the same time as you, Rebecca. It was weird. I couldn’t help but notice that 1 of 2 hot guys would follow me into the restroom OFTEN. They would stare at me but not nod ‘hi’. I never said anything. Sometimes 1 of them would shake his possum at me. I didn’t want to get in a fight and get kicked out of school. I learned to ignore them. A year later one of my class mates noticed them and pointed out that they were cops looking for gay guys. It freaked him out to find they hung out around me. So I handled it. The next time they sauntered in after me,I exited quickly and told the girl at the information desk that there were 2 guys in there trying to come on to me. She called security, on security. That’s when I knew that when it came to the church, I was dealing with insidious scum. Entrapment is a low bar, but the Q15 never fail to do a deep dive for a personal worst, and shock me on a regular basis. When they hunt you, sniff you, and actively hate you, you know you are truly special. Freaks! I’m glad y’all turned out so cool. You two too, Rebecca and Landon. Your love is felt and appreciated
In 1976-1977, my Ricks College roommate's fiance was a part-time campus cop while attending school. He would entertain other students at lunch in the cafeteria with his stories of undercover entrapment of young gay men students in the restrooms of the Manwaring Student Center. It was his favorite assignment. He sounded victorious at the number of young men he led out of the restrooms in handcuffs through crowds of other students, on the way to Campus Security and the Honor Office. I was horrified. I could not comprehend such a thing happening in the Church-run school. I expressed my displeasure but was quickly silenced. To know it was an ongoing occurance made me into an advocate for the LGBTQ community to this day, which i previously hadn't known existed...
I grew up in SF-- 10 miles from Provo. I am 70. It was all white and 95% LDS .My orientation was when I was born. I was playing nasty at age 5 till HS, where is was more than just nasty. I didn’t know what gay was or meant till I was just in HS. 55 years ago there was no talk, education, it was not spoken of. But I was aggressive-I knew what I wanted and liked. There was ample partners all of that time. They were experimenting and horny. I stopped going and bribing in the Church when I was a JR. I said no mission, no Temple marriage, no children--NO! Now to BYU. I did go one semester out of HS. Honestly, gay men were in abundance. Every weekend was going to SLC and The Sun. I started sneaking when I was 19. I was at BYU when the “conversion “ BS started. I heard about what they did to my gay brothers. I always will remember Ernest L. Wilkerson for homosexual to leave , BYU. We do not want to be contaminated by you. Packer and Oaks scarred me. I was still in HS when they starting their was on gay people. I left BYU after semester of not learning subjects, but how the Church related them, F-ing incredible brain washing of thr already brain washed students. Years later I met with two guys that went through that ordeal. Damaged men. Men that really believed but it was never good enough for the Church or their families. They turned to addiction. Going overboard . The worst, suicide, that their cowardly family covered up but everyone knew. Shame on the Church and it’s counseling. Lying to young men, it will all go away if you go on a mission, get married in the Temple, have children ASAP.. it does NOT go away. You are born with your orientation. Your choice is what will you do with it. Live a lie or be who you really are.
Thank you, Rebecca and Landon, for bringing these gentlemen together to tell their heartbreaking stories. One of these men is my dear cousin who I think the world of (x 1000!). He is an incredibly fine human and I am so blessed to have him in my life. If only I could have been there for him during those years of heartache and struggle. I was too steeped in the Mormon Church to even have a clue about what was happening. I very much regret that and wish I could rewind those years so I could offer him my support when he felt so alone. Thank you to each of these brave men for being willing to tell your stories and allowing yourselves to be vulnerable. I cried many times during the conversation. It’s stories like yours that caused me to disassociate myself from the church in 2015. I wish you all much love, peace, and contentment in being your beautiful selves. ❤
Thank you so much for your comment. So many of us were just following the church’s lead not recognizing the human suffering and need right in front of us! Learning from this episode is the greatest appreciation we can give to these gentlemen! Thanks for watching!
I just can’t fathom such suffering!!!!!!! NO ONE DESERVES THAT!!!!!!! You guys are fantastic!!!! Wishing you all the happiness!!!!! Thx for sharing your journey!!!!!
I grew up in SLC, attended seminary but joined the church when I was 20. I went on my mission when i was 21, was robbed and raped during a mission transfer by myself and retured home. My singles ward bishop (he had a gay son and was a high school principal) referred me to LGSU at the U of U! The U had a gay/lesbian club which saved my life. I have always heard horror stories from my peers that went to BYU! I'm sorry you guys had that experience at school in Provo! Great video!
I wonder if any of these guy knew my friend Sy Felt. He worked at BYU as a closeted gay and was a magnet for struggling young gay students there. He was visiting the gay bars in SLC and facing the same risks described in this podcast. In the mid 1980s he was ratted out by a renter at his house, and that triggered him finally coming out and leaving BYU. He moved to the LA area but eventually returned to Utah to live in SLC near his sister. Two of my daughters moved into the same apartment building with him and were great friends. Sy died in 2012 just short of age 80.
I remember meeting Sy Felt in the early 1980s when I was a closted gay student sneaking off to Affirmation meetings in SLC and to the SLC bars on the weekends
Thank you R & L for this very telling elisode! The Church & BYU needs to be held accountable for their actions. I had several friends that were hunted by the heinous BYU Gestapo, one of them committed suicide a result from the torturous physical and mental "shock" treatment!
Rebecca and Landon, I’m speechless at you guys!!!! This episode was SO special and rich with love and understanding and respect for the simple fact that we are all deserving of love and respect - our differences do not matter in the face of our humanity!!!!! I just love your podcast!!!!! You guys do a GREAT job!!!!! Thank you!!!!
I have brothers, ten years younger, who are identical twins. At age 12, one of them figured out he was gay (the other is/was as well, but never allowed himself to recognize it, at least publicly). My Mormon household was so strict that I have no idea how that one brother figured out he was gay. Somehow, that fact ended up getting known by his bishop. I had just come back from my mission and was at BYU getting fairly close to finishing my degrees. This was 1979 or so. BYU authorities called me in to "interrogate" me. They seemed to think my brother's gayness was somehow going to be part of me as well. They "convinced" me (under implied threat of taking away my scholarship) that I needed gay conversion therapy (just in case, I guess). I was naive. (Like I say, I have no idea how my 12-year-old brother was not naive like me...) So, I relented. The "therapy" consisted of their using a device invented by "therapists" either at BYU or at least by people associated with BYU. The device is called a penile plethysmograph. It is placed on the flaccid penis. Then nude photos are put on the screen and my penile reaction was measured. A device similar to the coils wrapped around your chest during a polygraph was also placed on me, except the device renders shocks instead of just sensing electrical activity or heartrate or whatever. Shocks were administered if there were any response they thought was inappropriate to explicit male nudity. They were also administered if the response were not enough to what they thought it should be to explicit female nudity. I, being naive, responded a bit on occasion to shocking (no pun intended) portrayals of explicit male nudity, as I think many would if seeing it in photos for the first time. And I did not respond enough (I guess) to the explicit female ones. (I later underwent therapy about this and was told it is not uncommon to react exactly as I did at first, since I had never seen the explicit nude body. That therapy confirmed I was a typical male heterosexual, but BYU didn't see it that way.) The penile plethysmograph they invented is still disgustingly used today to "diagnose" attraction to children by flashing explicit child nudity instead (though the person does not get any shocks). In fact, my brother was later approached by someone in his ward to allow his toddler son to pose for some of those disgusting photos to use in their "diagnostic" tools. My brother has told me many times how much he regretted naively allowing them to use his son, thinking it was for a "greater good". Of course, Oaks was president of BYU at the time. So BYU was actively involved in conversion therapy in the late 70s, and I was a victim of their abuse. And children were also victims of it via their use of them in photographs of nude children. And people today are still being abused by their invention of the penile plethysmograph.
I loved this. Thank you all for getting together and sharing. Rebecca was right, listeners may need a couple tissues. Just a beautiful group of souls. Wowza.
Such a powerful podcast. Deeply moving. Rivaling Mormon Stories Podcast. Thank you Rebecca and Landon for your sensitive questions. Hoping for a Part II and Part III.Better yet an enterprising documentarian would have a wealth of stories to work with and produce an award winning documentary. Many thanks. 🌈🏳🌈
This was a very heartfelt and important discussion. My brother was a gay man who went to BYU and it’s heartbreaking what he went through. He’s such a great guy and I wish I had been there for him more as he wrestled with coming out and living authentically. I can’t change the past. I hope I can be the kind of sister I should have been.
You touched upon how the state police of Utah carry out actions of the church. I would really like to see that examined on your program. I've also been aware of how polygamy is protected by law authorities right out in the open.
This video makes me so sad. My daughter just graduated from the theater dept- well a few more weeks, and I am so glad things are easier now. This makes me remember an incident that happened in early 80's in St George. A boy, I knew he was gay without him ever saying so, asked me to pretend to be his girlfriend bc his parents were coming for a visit. He sorta laughed it off and honestly I can't remember- I think I met them casually- but now I am distressed bc I can't remember. I grew up on the east coast, divorced parents, and we had a gay man who was a friend of my mom's and he lived with us. Being gay way back in the early 70's was a scary thing but so I think probably less scary than what you men at BYU may have encountered. I am going to go find my yearbook and see if I can find my friend....
It was good to see Rob live and in person. We have been FB friends for a number of years. I come from a family of all boys, and also have a younger brother who is gay. Rebecca deserves a lot of credit for her understanding, sense of humor, and long-suffering. I attended BYU during the early 70's. After my mission, I just buried myself in my studies and trying to convince myself to get married in order to fit in. I wouldn't have fit in with these guys. They are all nice, but I was into tech, not the humanities. But, I can totally identify with what they are saying and their trials and struggles. Growing up I saw my father struggle financially, and I wanted to get out, get a good job and earn money. I was oblivious the all of this going on at BYU: the witch hunts, the electro-shock therapy, etc. The marriage occurred a couple of months before Stonewall. It lasted 13 years. I just heard Blaine talking about his marriage. I understand. Living in California, I would often travel to Utah to see family. I went to a couple of gay bars while in town. It was interesting to see all the guys with a paranoid look in their eyes, looking around to see might be watching. I laughed back then. Little did I realize that these men were experiencing real fear. I was raised in a part-member, inactive family. I basically converted myself to the gospel, not the church. I was finally excommunicated, but retained the spiritual connection I had developed while at BYU, which had nothing to do with the church. While they were going through all this in the 80's, I was out and moved to California. I eventually met a great ex-Mormon guy. We have been together for 35 years, married for 10. My husband took a lot of drama in school. Talking with him, I believe I should have taken some drama, and it would be a help in my life.
I was told to leave BYU by the honor code office in my junior year in 1982 after another student informed the honor code office that I was gay. I had come out that year, attending Affirmation meetings in SLC, and socializing with other LGBTQ people in SLC. in 1979-1980 my "girlfriend" was a theater major, so I realized there were some other gay men on campus. Mitchell mentioned the play The Crucible in 1979. I was in the audience for that because my girlfriend Loretta was either in it or we went on a date to it.
Side thought, these men need to make notes so that when DHO becomes President of the Church, there will be a record of what happened that he said didn't happen at BYU during his tenure there.
I was at BYU 1981-1984. I wasn't gay, but had been raised with my own heartbreak caused by the Mormon LDS church's abuse and also child abuse. I agree with Mark, don't change the church, just leave it! Because it doesn't deserve to be the chameleon or Medusa with a thousand snake heads. It never really changes at its root, even if it slips in a change here and there to try to save itself. It's never changing from remorse. It doesn't apologize. It never acknowledges the damage it did. It's real beliefs don't change. You'll notice there's no black men at the top. This was absolutely inspiring and heartbreaking. We lived as if we were under the rule of Nazis in this church, and pretending we were free. The way these boys had to live was tragic. Human love has a way of breaking out, however. And I'm so glad they were able to set themselves free. Their story needs to be told. They are heroes. I hate how the church picks who is worthless, and then destroys them. The struggle to be found worthy in the Mormon church by men who don't know you, who can't put your heart or their heart in the mix is utterly horrible. There's no love. Sadistic leaders were aplenty. We were so young, they were so cruel. We don't have to look far to see exactly where a Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt's roots grew from. The church punished people to death at times, or to a life of hating ourselves and being manipulated and coerced by conniving members. These boys were absolutely traumatized by this cruel environment with thought police and entrapment artists. I remember hearing about students who were sent out to 'entrap the gays.' It's not forgiveable. It's disgusting. And as for me and my house, we choose to leave it, like Mark said. I hope these men find freedom and joy. I hope Blaine has peace and comfort and friendship as he goes through this cancer. 💕Rebekah and Landon are breaking the podcast world with their incredible ideas for guests. 💕 Thank you
I’m so glad the Universe led me away from the church towards a more accepting viewpoint, because when my young son came out to me in 2015. I was able to be a supportive and loving mother to him.
I cant even begin to express how much platforming people in the LGBTQ community changes people's lives. Just knowing that you are not the only one going through it does wonders for your mental health. To know that It can get bettee when you get away from your teenage environment. We have to contjnue to fight for our rights at BYU and I raise my hat to the people that came before my generation (millennial) and to the generation after mine for keeping up the fight.
My SIL had to be sedated when she found out her Broadway dancer son was gay. She was the last to know - everyone else loved him and accepted him just as he was and so proud of his success. Not her. She lived in the hell she created in her own tiny head.
That's so sad. We each create our own heaven or hell. That she took her love for her son and created a hell for herself is tragic. The good news is that one can dismantle self-created Hells whenever one so chooses.
Many years ago I accidentally crossed paths at a hot springs in Oregon with my BYU GF's dorm father at Heritage Halls who told me his story of being entrapped by BYU Security in a Y-Center bathroom. He was in a toilet stall when he heard some foot tapping in the next stall. He responded to the foot tapping. When he exited the stall, a BYU Security swat team arrested him and hauled him to the basement of the Administration Building for interrogation. They summoned his wife and totally blew up his life. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise that his fake marriage was exposed and he eventually escaped the Cult and lived his life authentically.
I appreciated the sharing and I am sorry for the pain. I have confused thoughts about the gay rate being so high. My thought is it is natural and then I have read in science that men carry a gene that is transferred to the fetus so then we have so many having children so fast and young that the gene.is becoming rampant thru all the babies born. Whatever it is it is not going away and accepting people for who they are is important ❤️Thanks Mormon ish for creating this healing space for for these men.
At ~39 min Rob says that the LDS Church's anti-gay and homophobic stances were just an extreme version of all or most US resident beliefs in the 80s. Perhaps broadly esp wiithin religions, but I had a very different experience as a high school & college student (private liberal arts) in the 80s. I was a dance kid, we all knew and were pretty open about the gay kids among us (I am cisF). My parents left their Protestant churches and raised us secular. My gay cousin lived with my parents openly (her reliigious parents did reject her for a while, now fully embrace her). In college I would say the majority of students were SJW feminist/queer-affirming - most of the student body. So perhaps we were ahead of the curve but we allies were there and out and trying to change attitudes & laws both. So I am still shocked at how backward and reactionary the Mormon church remains. These stories are painful to hear but so needed. Ty to Mormonish & guests. Be well & enjoy life to the fullest here on out.
JC-vq2cs, thanks for sharing your positive experiences in the 80s of being supported and affirmed! I think that is truly wonderful! I'm such that foundation of affirmation, support and love during your youth made all the difference in your life. Keep in mind that the years of which I was speaking were my years at BYU: January 1979 through December 1982--PRIOR to the AIDS epidemic. During the 1970s and 80s, I found the theatre community in which I worked to be VERY accepting of gender and sexuality differences. Because I was still in denial and closeted at the time, the biggest struggle I had was maintaining my so-called "standards" while working among friends who could see I was gay (one would have had to have been headless NOT to see it) and gently encouraged me to let down my guard and be accepting of myself--unsuccessfully of course, thanks to my emotional immaturity and hangups at the time. The overwhelming acceptance of homosexuality in the theatre community was very confusing to me at the time. Because theatre friends and co-workers indicated they knew I was gay, I felt threatened because I knew they could see and accept what I was trying to desperately to hide and deny about myself. On the other hand, I felt intense affection for them because they could see and accept that which I was afraid to accept about myself. Outside of the performing arts community in the early-to-mid-80s, in society at large, I found unacceptance to be the norm. My experience was the most Americans still looked down on, mocked and were distrustful of anyone identifying as gay. Acceptance was not the norm, and because activists advocating for gay rights were maligned as Left Wing radicals, being openly accepting of gays was associated with being Left Wing, a "commie pinko," etc. When the AIDS epidemic erupted in 1983 (I was 25 at the time), fear became associated with acceptance. The fact that President Regan never said the word "AIDS" during his eight years in office is endemic of the times. AIDS was seen as a "Gay disease" (it has even dubbed "the gay cancer" when the first cases were noted in the media toward the end of 1982) and to advocated for AIDS research and relief for victims was seen as support of a radical Far Left concern. It was all utterly ridiculous, a sin if ever there was one---the politicization of a disease and the human tragedy it brought upon the world. The loudest "Christian" voices in America at the time--Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberston, etc.--only stoked the fear, demonizing gays all the more for supposedly bringing this plague upon themselves, and suggesting that gays needed to somehow be quarantined from the rest of the society. The mainstream media took a much more sympathetic view (I would call it a HUMAN view) of the AIDS victims and the gay community--emphasizing that this was a pandemic and that during a pandemic, everyone who is infected is an innocent victim of a disease. AID was a turning point for society. A family could deny that a beloved but closeted child, spouse, cousin or nephew was gay, but when that family member was suddenly dying slowly and horribly from the disease, people had to begin making choices based on their actual values. And most (not all but most) were moved by the suffering of their loved one, put their love for that family member first, let down their guards and allowed the awful experience to work on their minds and hearts. By the mid-90s when pharmaceutical cocktails were available that transformed an HIV diagnosis from a certain death sentence to a chronic infection that could be treated, overall social attitudes towards gays had changed substantially. They still had a LONG, LONG WAYS TO GO, but a bridge had been crossed. In the summer of 1977 when ABC announced its new sitcom "Soap" would feature an openly gay character (played by Bill Crystal), there were campaigns (and not only from explicitly religious institutions) to get it thrown off the air. Twenty-one years later, when NBC premiered "Will & Grace," it became a mainstream hit without a bit of protest and stayed on the air for eight years. Its mainstream popularity was a testament of changed societal attitudes generally, and its successful eight-year run probably contributed more than is calculable to changing attitudes even more. I'm getting way off topic. My only point is that outside of certain communities, such as the performing arts community, bigotry toward, fear of, and disdain for homosexuals was the general norm for society in the late 70s/early 80s. Coupled with religion, it was even more toxic and extreme within the LDS organization.
Thank you for taking time to add more personal experience & reply to my comment @robbiefl58. I fear mine came off as diminishing the very real and widespread discrimination & hateful behavior & speech & often violence toward LGBTQIA+ people - that is everpresent at some level in society sadly and resurgent today. With Oaks now essentially in charge of the Corporation, for BYUs and Mormonism it will get worse before it gets better esp for trans people but also anyone outside the strict hetero and gender normativity. As a hetero F - even if gender nonconforming - I certainly was highly privileged. Several friends died of AIDS and many had similar closeted and deeply damaging, traumatizing life journeys to self and community acceptance - if they got there. I guess I just wanted to give some perpective that there were pockets - even in small midwestern towns - of support & allyship. I am so sorry for all you and your friends had to suffer. May you heal and be well. Thanks again, this episode is searing and so painful to listen to. I am grateful for all of your honesty & that you are here today to share with us. I apologize for diminishing your real persecution, fear, and trauma. As a NeverMo raised secular there are a lot of things I will understand intellectually but not emotionally. Also, being a dance kid, yes the arts were a little pocket of more openness for many.
It wasn't until the slide show at the end that the tears really started flowing.Yup, tissues nearby needed. What beautiful men. If only they could have lived openly & happily then. Mormon - "more good"?. Nope. Its not good. And its not true.
In my experience, many gay Mormons and gay ex-Mormons like believing that "because the church changed on polygamy and the priesthood ban, eventually it will change to accept gay people too." I think this is naive and incorrect. Polygamy was openly taught for only about 40 years and then its practice officially suspended, and a majority of Mormon men never were polygamous. The priesthood ban was always accompanied by statements that at some future point, it would change. These things are not true of the church's approach to homosexuality. A heterosexual gender binary to which every "spirit child of God" must conform is baked into the most fundamental structures of Mormon theology. "Exaltation", which is supposed to be theoretically available to every person ever born, requires a hetero temple marriage to achieve, and eternal procreation is implicit as a privilege and a responsibility of such marriages. The words of the sealing ceremony itself confirm this: "I say unto you be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, that you may have joy and rejoicing in your posterity in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ." God the Father is believed/assumed to be married to "Heavenly Mother." (Full disclosure: I was a temple sealer and know what I'm talking about). The highest level of the Celestial Kingdom promises "eternal increase" achievable only through some kind of heterosexual relations. And since the whole point of vicarious ordinances is the principle that they must be made available to every person who has ever lived or else God is not fair and just, the same goes for the chance to achieve exaltation too. Thus, Mormon theology is simply saturated in, and predicated on, the assumption that EVERYONE MUST BE STRAIGHT. Polygamy and the priesthood ban were never remotely this fundamental to the entire edifice. Kick this part of the structure away, and the legitimacy of the entire thing collapses. Instant conclusions and results of Mormonism accepting gay relationships include (1) Joseph Smith's own revelations and theology were incomplete, with huge gaps that ignored hundreds of millions of people throughout history. Who amongst the current risk-averse former corporate executives in senior leadership wants to be the one that openly questions "the founding prophet of the restoration"?; (2) There is no basis for any gender-based distinctions anywhere in the church if gay and lesbian couples' marriages are legit, because who "presides" in a home with two female spouses? There goes the basis for withholding the priesthood from women; (3) Over two centuries of gender-based discrimination, vociferously defended by past leaders, is thus shown to be wrong, in which case, where was their "inspiration", which in turn calls into question the legitimacy of the whole thing; (4) Decades of "prophetic" denunciation of homosexuality is shown to be wrong even though at the time it was presented as unquestionably the will of God, in which case again, what happened to "inspiration" and there goes any claim of consistent legitimacy; (5) "eternal increase" is no longer necessary for married couples, because gay couples can't have children the same way straight couples do. "All the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" which are "sealed upon" such couples in the temple don't matter anymore. Previous changes to polygamy and the priesthood ban didn't come within 100 miles of having these kinds of implications for the church and its teachings. I will bet a month's salary that none of this is lost on current LDS leadership. I heard these same "Oh don't worry eventually they'll have to come around" predictions 15 years ago, and while since then the church has certainly softened its PR out of political necessity after the massive self-inflicted wound of Proposition 8, they have not softened the doctrine one bit; in fact, they've doubled down on their political investment to make sure their ability to enforce their rules is legally insulated. This is exactly what I predicted back then. Membership losses out of disagreement with the church on this issue are simply a cost of doing business to top leadership, who clearly would rather dig in their heels and keep the large majority of tithe-paying straight faithful in "the fold" rather than risk a schism by actually changing any doctrine. The Salt Lake Pride Parade is all well and good, but there simply aren't enough gay Mormons to change senior leadership's calculus on this. Lastly, look at the top 15 line-up. Statistical odds are that Bednar--second only to Packer in his homophobia--will end up as LDS president, and probably for some time. If he has anything close to the longevity of recent presidents, he will be able to single-handedly prevent any further accommodations or liberalizations for literally decades to come. And he will pick new apostles that fit his views. This supports my prediction 15 years ago that LDS leadership will choose to double down rather than liberalize, because they recognize that any genuine doctrinal change on homosexuality threatens the legitimacy of the whole enterprise--and thus their own authority--in a way that changes to polygamy and the priesthood ban never did. If any such change does ever come, it will be long, long after all of us are gone. If so many Mormons rebelled against Nelson telling them to just put on a goddamn mask during the Covid pandemic, imagine the outrage from those same Mormons if any of Nelson's successors say "Oh, wait, NVM, forget everything we said before, gays are okay now, we'll let them get married in the temple." It'd be like January 6 at the Capitol, except at church HQ. No way "The Brethren" will risk that. Especially now that the only place the church is actually growing is in notoriously homophobic Africa, where more than one country still jails and threatens gay people with the death penalty. Do you think they'll want to shut off that growth because a single digit percentage of comparatively privileged North American members wants a doctrinal change? NFW. There is only one way out of this. Just leave the whole thing behind. Accept that it's not what it claims to be, and live a happy life outside it. Problem solved.
I will say this. If someone is gay they probably shouldn’t go to byu since you promise to be celibate or do semen retention as they say in Asia. It’s like alcoholics tend to avoid byu and go to the party school like UofU or Dixie which is now the lame tech of southern Utah or some lame freaking name. Seriously Brigham young would drink but you can’t now if you go to byu. It is interesting people think they’d make an exception for sexual proclivities or any nature since you’re supposed to be celibate.
The church will accept gays and women in the priesthood slowly overtime it will happen. The doctrine will change, and they will disavow like the pre existence valiant spirits and blacks withpriesthood. .
Rebecca talked as much or more than her guests. While I appreciate her enthusiasm, I would really rather hear from the guests. I wish she’d learn to facilitate the conversation better rather than get in the way of her guests revealing their knowledge and experience.
I know! I had a hard time because we had talked beforehand and been texting throughout the month and we really felt like we were just out to dinner all talking at the same time! I know that doesn’t translate very well on the podcast ha ha! I actually think these guys should start their own podcast!
Since Rebecca is the one who made the whole episode possible I think she’s earned the right to say what she feels needed to be said on this episode. This was an episode of passion for her as she worked with Rob Lauer to gather this group of men and get them all on at the same time. This was her brain child and it took her months to get this episode together. But once we recorded the episode she wasn’t satisfied she wanted a slide show of their pictures from BYU and she spent several more weeks getting that all together. I hope people understand the time and love that goes into an episode like this and it shouldn’t be surprising when the passion for the subject comes out in the episode.
@@rebeccabibliotheca Thank you for spearheading this and creating and relaxed, friendly atmosphere in which we all felt comfortable essentially saying anything we felt moved to say. Viewers have no way of knowing how nervous some of these wonderful guys were about opening up about their experiences publicly. Every one of them hesitated at first when I approached them about appearing on the podcast and all of them thought long and hard before agreeing to appear. All of them feel in love with you, Rebecca and your warm, welcoming, good-natured self. You go, Girl!
I can only speak for myself…I have met so many incredible LGBT friends and am sincerely impressed with the kindness, intelligence, and loving attitude I have experienced. I will take my LGBT friends over my “church” friends any day! They don’t drop me like a hot potato when my views differ from theirs and believe me when I say my interaction with these friends has made me a better person with out question
Hello there! I was at BYU 1980-85. My freshman year I lived in Helaman Halls. The floor RA would tell us scandalous stories about gay men meeting up at the Wilkinson Center basement bathrooms. I remembered being both horrified and intrigued. My junior year I had several male friends who were gay and we just didn't talk about it. We would go out on group dates (usually 3 girls and 2 very cute guys) and sit together during a movie at the Smith building. It was fun and I had very fond memories. Forty years later I have multiple family members identify as gay. Tonight's podcast has made me realize that I have evolved from a 19 year old freshman girl who was encouraged to relish in the scandal of what was probably a sting operation at the Wilkinson center to a 62 year old aunt and great aunt who adores all her nieces and nephews whether in the church or out, whether gay or straight. Thank you to all the members of this episode.
Not only did I cry repeatedly watching this- because these are 5 of my dearest friends (yes I too was a cleaver! ) But I wasn't expecting to appear in the photo reel- I'm between Mark in yellow and mitch in blue. I asked all these guys then and now. And yes-i think everyone suspected but it was simply not talked about them. (Also, I do know someone who went thru the electroshock therapy while we were there-Cam Clarke. He talks about it in his one man show- the video mat still be on YT. It's hilarious and heartbreaking. )
You know I love you all so much. Always have, always will. 💋 💋💋💋💋
Yes, this is solid emotional but reality based video podcasting. Mormon-ish rock’s it hard!
These men are the true warriors ❤
Another stellar episode, Landon and Rebecca! You were able to give voices and faces to all the stories that we hear about those ugly years at BYU. These are the stories that need to be documented for history, and you made it happen! Thank you.
I think there needs to be a compilation of these stories written in a book. Similar to the witnesses of the book of mormon. Having witnesses to this trauma and hate woule be very moving
Thanks for sharing y’all. I went the same time as you, Rebecca. It was weird. I couldn’t help but notice that 1 of 2 hot guys would follow me into the restroom OFTEN. They would stare at me but not nod ‘hi’. I never said anything. Sometimes 1 of them would shake his possum at me. I didn’t want to get in a fight and get kicked out of school. I learned to ignore them. A year later one of my class mates noticed them and pointed out that they were cops looking for gay guys. It freaked him out to find they hung out around me. So I handled it. The next time they sauntered in after me,I exited quickly and told the girl at the information desk that there were 2 guys in there trying to come on to me. She called security, on security. That’s when I knew that when it came to the church, I was dealing with insidious scum. Entrapment is a low bar, but the Q15 never fail to do a deep dive for a personal worst, and shock me on a regular basis. When they hunt you, sniff you, and actively hate you, you know you are truly special. Freaks!
I’m glad y’all turned out so cool. You two too, Rebecca and Landon. Your love is felt and appreciated
In 1976-1977, my Ricks College roommate's fiance was a part-time campus cop while attending school. He would entertain other students at lunch in the cafeteria with his stories of undercover entrapment of young gay men students in the restrooms of the Manwaring Student Center. It was his favorite assignment. He sounded victorious at the number of young men he led out of the restrooms in handcuffs through crowds of other students, on the way to Campus Security and the Honor Office.
I was horrified. I could not comprehend such a thing happening in the Church-run school. I expressed my displeasure but was quickly silenced.
To know it was an ongoing occurance made me into an advocate for the LGBTQ community to this day, which i previously hadn't known existed...
I grew up in SF-- 10 miles from Provo. I am 70. It was all white and 95% LDS .My orientation was when I was born. I was playing nasty at age 5 till HS, where is was more than just nasty. I didn’t know what gay was or meant till I was just in HS. 55 years ago there was no talk, education, it was not spoken of. But I was aggressive-I knew what I wanted and liked. There was ample partners all of that time. They were experimenting and horny. I stopped going and bribing in the Church when I was a JR. I said no mission, no Temple marriage, no children--NO! Now to BYU. I did go one semester out of HS. Honestly, gay men were in abundance. Every weekend was going to SLC and The Sun. I started sneaking when I was
19. I was at BYU when the “conversion “ BS started. I heard about what they did to my gay brothers. I always will remember Ernest L. Wilkerson for homosexual to leave , BYU. We do not want to be contaminated by you. Packer and Oaks scarred me. I was still in HS when they starting their was on gay people. I left BYU after semester of not learning subjects, but how the Church related them, F-ing incredible brain washing of thr already brain washed students. Years later I met with two guys that went through that ordeal. Damaged men. Men that really believed but it was never good enough for the Church or their families. They turned to addiction. Going overboard . The worst, suicide, that their cowardly family covered up but everyone knew. Shame on the Church and it’s counseling. Lying to young men, it will all go away if you go on a mission, get married in the Temple, have children ASAP.. it does NOT go away. You are born with your orientation. Your choice is what will you do with it. Live a lie or be who you really are.
Thank you. Blessings on your journey.
Awesome show. They should write a collection of essays about their experiences.
what a wonderful group of educated, friendly and gay people 😊✊
Thank you, Rebecca and Landon, for bringing these gentlemen together to tell their heartbreaking stories.
One of these men is my dear cousin who I think the world of (x 1000!). He is an incredibly fine human and I am so blessed to have him in my life. If only I could have been there for him during those years of heartache and struggle. I was too steeped in the Mormon Church to even have a clue about what was happening. I very much regret that and wish I could rewind those years so I could offer him my support when he felt so alone.
Thank you to each of these brave men for being willing to tell your stories and allowing yourselves to be vulnerable. I cried many times during the conversation. It’s stories like yours that caused me to disassociate myself from the church in 2015.
I wish you all much love, peace, and contentment in being your beautiful selves. ❤
Thank you so much for your comment. So many of us were just following the church’s lead not recognizing the human suffering and need right in front of us! Learning from this episode is the greatest appreciation we can give to these gentlemen! Thanks for watching!
So true! ❤
Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts on the church's school.
You are amazing survivors!
I just can’t fathom such suffering!!!!!!! NO ONE DESERVES THAT!!!!!!! You guys are fantastic!!!! Wishing you all the happiness!!!!! Thx for sharing your journey!!!!!
We just fell in love with these guys! Such wonderful people!
I grew up in SLC, attended seminary but joined the church when I was 20. I went on my mission when i was 21, was robbed and raped during a mission transfer by myself and retured home. My singles ward bishop (he had a gay son and was a high school principal) referred me to LGSU at the U of U! The U had a gay/lesbian club which saved my life. I have always heard horror stories from my peers that went to BYU! I'm sorry you guys had that experience at school in Provo! Great video!
Wow, powerful . Powerful and profound. We’re all still here and blessed. Great show.
I wonder if any of these guy knew my friend Sy Felt. He worked at BYU as a closeted gay and was a magnet for struggling young gay students there. He was visiting the gay bars in SLC and facing the same risks described in this podcast. In the mid 1980s he was ratted out by a renter at his house, and that triggered him finally coming out and leaving BYU. He moved to the LA area but eventually returned to Utah to live in SLC near his sister. Two of my daughters moved into the same apartment building with him and were great friends. Sy died in 2012 just short of age 80.
I remember meeting Sy Felt in the early 1980s when I was a closted gay student sneaking off to Affirmation meetings in SLC and to the SLC bars on the weekends
Thank you R & L for this very telling elisode! The Church & BYU needs to be held accountable for their actions. I had several friends that were hunted by the heinous BYU Gestapo, one of them committed suicide a result from the torturous physical and mental "shock" treatment!
I dated someone who underwent electroshock aversion therapy at BYU and it was devastating to his life and personality. He had major issues after tha.
Rebecca and Landon, I’m speechless at you guys!!!! This episode was SO special and rich with love and understanding and respect for the simple fact that we are all deserving of love and respect - our differences do not matter in the face of our humanity!!!!! I just love your podcast!!!!! You guys do a GREAT job!!!!! Thank you!!!!
Charlie’s monument! I quoted that in a youth sacrament talk decades ago!
Thank you gentlemen for sharing your stories. I don't even know what to say. Amazing people for sure.
Thank you to all of you! ❤
This was beautiful. ❤
These stories just break my heart.
I have brothers, ten years younger, who are identical twins. At age 12, one of them figured out he was gay (the other is/was as well, but never allowed himself to recognize it, at least publicly). My Mormon household was so strict that I have no idea how that one brother figured out he was gay. Somehow, that fact ended up getting known by his bishop. I had just come back from my mission and was at BYU getting fairly close to finishing my degrees. This was 1979 or so. BYU authorities called me in to "interrogate" me. They seemed to think my brother's gayness was somehow going to be part of me as well. They "convinced" me (under implied threat of taking away my scholarship) that I needed gay conversion therapy (just in case, I guess). I was naive. (Like I say, I have no idea how my 12-year-old brother was not naive like me...) So, I relented.
The "therapy" consisted of their using a device invented by "therapists" either at BYU or at least by people associated with BYU. The device is called a penile plethysmograph. It is placed on the flaccid penis. Then nude photos are put on the screen and my penile reaction was measured. A device similar to the coils wrapped around your chest during a polygraph was also placed on me, except the device renders shocks instead of just sensing electrical activity or heartrate or whatever. Shocks were administered if there were any response they thought was inappropriate to explicit male nudity. They were also administered if the response were not enough to what they thought it should be to explicit female nudity. I, being naive, responded a bit on occasion to shocking (no pun intended) portrayals of explicit male nudity, as I think many would if seeing it in photos for the first time. And I did not respond enough (I guess) to the explicit female ones. (I later underwent therapy about this and was told it is not uncommon to react exactly as I did at first, since I had never seen the explicit nude body. That therapy confirmed I was a typical male heterosexual, but BYU didn't see it that way.)
The penile plethysmograph they invented is still disgustingly used today to "diagnose" attraction to children by flashing explicit child nudity instead (though the person does not get any shocks). In fact, my brother was later approached by someone in his ward to allow his toddler son to pose for some of those disgusting photos to use in their "diagnostic" tools. My brother has told me many times how much he regretted naively allowing them to use his son, thinking it was for a "greater good".
Of course, Oaks was president of BYU at the time.
So BYU was actively involved in conversion therapy in the late 70s, and I was a victim of their abuse. And children were also victims of it via their use of them in photographs of nude children. And people today are still being abused by their invention of the penile plethysmograph.
I loved this. Thank you all for getting together and sharing. Rebecca was right, listeners may need a couple tissues. Just a beautiful group of souls. Wowza.
Such a powerful podcast. Deeply moving. Rivaling Mormon Stories Podcast. Thank you Rebecca and Landon for your sensitive questions. Hoping for a Part II and Part III.Better yet an enterprising documentarian would have a wealth of stories to work with and produce an award winning documentary. Many thanks. 🌈🏳🌈
Beautiful stories and we should have them back very soon♥️
Wonderful!
This was a very heartfelt and important discussion. My brother was a gay man who went to BYU and it’s heartbreaking what he went through. He’s such a great guy and I wish I had been there for him more as he wrestled with coming out and living authentically.
I can’t change the past. I hope I can be the kind of sister I should have been.
You touched upon how the state police of Utah carry out actions of the church. I would really like to see that examined on your program. I've also been aware of how polygamy is protected by law authorities right out in the open.
This video makes me so sad. My daughter just graduated from the theater dept- well a few more weeks, and I am so glad things are easier now. This makes me remember an incident that happened in early 80's in St George. A boy, I knew he was gay without him ever saying so, asked me to pretend to be his girlfriend bc his parents were coming for a visit. He sorta laughed it off and honestly I can't remember- I think I met them casually- but now I am distressed bc I can't remember. I grew up on the east coast, divorced parents, and we had a gay man who was a friend of my mom's and he lived with us. Being gay way back in the early 70's was a scary thing but so I think probably less scary than what you men at BYU may have encountered. I am going to go find my yearbook and see if I can find my friend....
I have been waiting for this one.
Thank you all for letting us be in your homes and listen to you talk openly about your experiences.
Powerful episode
Goosebumps…such an incredible story!
You are our pioneers! 🌈
Wow! Much love to you all❤
It was good to see Rob live and in person. We have been FB friends for a number of years. I come from a family of all boys, and also have a younger brother who is gay. Rebecca deserves a lot of credit for her understanding, sense of humor, and long-suffering.
I attended BYU during the early 70's. After my mission, I just buried myself in my studies and trying to convince myself to get married in order to fit in. I wouldn't have fit in with these guys. They are all nice, but I was into tech, not the humanities. But, I can totally identify with what they are saying and their trials and struggles. Growing up I saw my father struggle financially, and I wanted to get out, get a good job and earn money. I was oblivious the all of this going on at BYU: the witch hunts, the electro-shock therapy, etc. The marriage occurred a couple of months before Stonewall. It lasted 13 years. I just heard Blaine talking about his marriage. I understand.
Living in California, I would often travel to Utah to see family. I went to a couple of gay bars while in town. It was interesting to see all the guys with a paranoid look in their eyes, looking around to see might be watching. I laughed back then. Little did I realize that these men were experiencing real fear.
I was raised in a part-member, inactive family. I basically converted myself to the gospel, not the church. I was finally excommunicated, but retained the spiritual connection I had developed while at BYU, which had nothing to do with the church. While they were going through all this in the 80's, I was out and moved to California. I eventually met a great ex-Mormon guy. We have been together for 35 years, married for 10. My husband took a lot of drama in school. Talking with him, I believe I should have taken some drama, and it would be a help in my life.
Powerful, beautiful episode. Thank you so much! Photos at the end were a perfect ending.
I was told to leave BYU by the honor code office in my junior year in 1982 after another student informed the honor code office that I was gay. I had come out that year, attending Affirmation meetings in SLC, and socializing with other LGBTQ people in SLC. in 1979-1980 my "girlfriend" was a theater major, so I realized there were some other gay men on campus. Mitchell mentioned the play The Crucible in 1979. I was in the audience for that because my girlfriend Loretta was either in it or we went on a date to it.
Hello, yes, I remember Loretta being in the cast of The Crucible. thank you for your comments.
You are all beautiful spirits.
God bless each of you!
This needs to be a film!!
Happy this interview happened. Let’s hear from the lesbians from this era at BYU.
Side thought, these men need to make notes so that when DHO becomes President of the Church, there will be a record of what happened that he said didn't happen at BYU during his tenure there.
Honestly!! Oaks the lying Hoax...
There needs to be a book written
Cam Clarke of the King Family has the neatest video called, "Stop Me If I Told You This!" His story is awsome!
I would love for Cam and even his cousin Tina Cole to come on the podcast. Lovely people! ❤
I was at BYU 1981-1984. I wasn't gay, but had been raised with my own heartbreak caused by the Mormon LDS church's abuse and also child abuse. I agree with Mark, don't change the church, just leave it! Because it doesn't deserve to be the chameleon or Medusa with a thousand snake heads. It never really changes at its root, even if it slips in a change here and there to try to save itself. It's never changing from remorse.
It doesn't apologize. It never acknowledges the damage it did. It's real beliefs don't change. You'll notice there's no black men at the top.
This was absolutely inspiring and heartbreaking. We lived as if we were under the rule of Nazis in this church, and pretending we were free. The way these boys had to live was tragic. Human love has a way of breaking out, however. And I'm so glad they were able to set themselves free. Their story needs to be told. They are heroes.
I hate how the church picks who is worthless, and then destroys them. The struggle to be found worthy in the Mormon church by men who don't know you, who can't put your heart or their heart in the mix is utterly horrible. There's no love. Sadistic leaders were aplenty.
We were so young, they were so cruel. We don't have to look far to see exactly where a Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt's roots grew from. The church punished people to death at times, or to a life of hating ourselves and being manipulated and coerced by conniving members. These boys were absolutely traumatized by this cruel environment with thought police and entrapment artists.
I remember hearing about students who were sent out to 'entrap the gays.' It's not forgiveable. It's disgusting. And as for me and my house, we choose to leave it, like Mark said. I hope these men find freedom and joy. I hope Blaine has peace and comfort and friendship as he goes through this cancer.
💕Rebekah and Landon are breaking the podcast world with their incredible ideas for guests. 💕 Thank you
I wish this video had a ten thousand more views!
I’m so glad the Universe led me away from the church towards a more accepting viewpoint, because when my young son came out to me in 2015. I was able to be a supportive and loving mother to him.
I cant even begin to express how much platforming people in the LGBTQ community changes people's lives. Just knowing that you are not the only one going through it does wonders for your mental health. To know that It can get bettee when you get away from your teenage environment. We have to contjnue to fight for our rights at BYU and I raise my hat to the people that came before my generation (millennial) and to the generation after mine for keeping up the fight.
My SIL had to be sedated when she found out her Broadway dancer son was gay. She was the last to know - everyone else loved him and accepted him just as he was and so proud of his success. Not her. She lived in the hell she created in her own tiny head.
That's so sad. We each create our own heaven or hell. That she took her love for her son and created a hell for herself is tragic. The good news is that one can dismantle self-created Hells whenever one so chooses.
Many years ago I accidentally crossed paths at a hot springs in Oregon with my BYU GF's dorm father at Heritage Halls who told me his story of being entrapped by BYU Security in a Y-Center bathroom. He was in a toilet stall when he heard some foot tapping in the next stall. He responded to the foot tapping. When he exited the stall, a BYU Security swat team arrested him and hauled him to the basement of the Administration Building for interrogation. They summoned his wife and totally blew up his life. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise that his fake marriage was exposed and he eventually escaped the Cult and lived his life authentically.
The BYU police department having jurisdiction in the entire state is some real bull crap.
Podcast well done in honor of basic human decency.
I appreciated the sharing and I am sorry for the pain. I have confused thoughts about the gay rate being so high. My thought is it is natural and then I have read in science that men carry a gene that is transferred to the fetus so then we have so many having children so fast and young that the gene.is becoming rampant thru all the babies born. Whatever it is it is not going away and accepting people for who they are is important ❤️Thanks Mormon ish for creating this healing space for for these men.
I know parents that don't choose their child, even today. If the church keeps leaning to the far right, being gay will be a tough sell in the church.
Like it's not a hard sell today?
At ~39 min Rob says that the LDS Church's anti-gay and homophobic stances were just an extreme version of all or most US resident beliefs in the 80s. Perhaps broadly esp wiithin religions, but I had a very different experience as a high school & college student (private liberal arts) in the 80s. I was a dance kid, we all knew and were pretty open about the gay kids among us (I am cisF). My parents left their Protestant churches and raised us secular. My gay cousin lived with my parents openly (her reliigious parents did reject her for a while, now fully embrace her). In college I would say the majority of students were SJW feminist/queer-affirming - most of the student body. So perhaps we were ahead of the curve but we allies were there and out and trying to change attitudes & laws both.
So I am still shocked at how backward and reactionary the Mormon church remains. These stories are painful to hear but so needed. Ty to Mormonish & guests. Be well & enjoy life to the fullest here on out.
JC-vq2cs, thanks for sharing your positive experiences in the 80s of being supported and affirmed! I think that is truly wonderful! I'm such that foundation of affirmation, support and love during your youth made all the difference in your life.
Keep in mind that the years of which I was speaking were my years at BYU: January 1979 through December 1982--PRIOR to the AIDS epidemic.
During the 1970s and 80s, I found the theatre community in which I worked to be VERY accepting of gender and sexuality differences. Because I was still in denial and closeted at the time, the biggest struggle I had was maintaining my so-called "standards" while working among friends who could see I was gay (one would have had to have been headless NOT to see it) and gently encouraged me to let down my guard and be accepting of myself--unsuccessfully of course, thanks to my emotional immaturity and hangups at the time. The overwhelming acceptance of homosexuality in the theatre community was very confusing to me at the time. Because theatre friends and co-workers indicated they knew I was gay, I felt threatened because I knew they could see and accept what I was trying to desperately to hide and deny about myself. On the other hand, I felt intense affection for them because they could see and accept that which I was afraid to accept about myself.
Outside of the performing arts community in the early-to-mid-80s, in society at large, I found unacceptance to be the norm. My experience was the most Americans still looked down on, mocked and were distrustful of anyone identifying as gay. Acceptance was not the norm, and because activists advocating for gay rights were maligned as Left Wing radicals, being openly accepting of gays was associated with being Left Wing, a "commie pinko," etc.
When the AIDS epidemic erupted in 1983 (I was 25 at the time), fear became associated with acceptance. The fact that President Regan never said the word "AIDS" during his eight years in office is endemic of the times. AIDS was seen as a "Gay disease" (it has even dubbed "the gay cancer" when the first cases were noted in the media toward the end of 1982) and to advocated for AIDS research and relief for victims was seen as support of a radical Far Left concern. It was all utterly ridiculous, a sin if ever there was one---the politicization of a disease and the human tragedy it brought upon the world.
The loudest "Christian" voices in America at the time--Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberston, etc.--only stoked the fear, demonizing gays all the more for supposedly bringing this plague upon themselves, and suggesting that gays needed to somehow be quarantined from the rest of the society. The mainstream media took a much more sympathetic view (I would call it a HUMAN view) of the AIDS victims and the gay community--emphasizing that this was a pandemic and that during a pandemic, everyone who is infected is an innocent victim of a disease.
AID was a turning point for society. A family could deny that a beloved but closeted child, spouse, cousin or nephew was gay, but when that family member was suddenly dying slowly and horribly from the disease, people had to begin making choices based on their actual values. And most (not all but most) were moved by the suffering of their loved one, put their love for that family member first, let down their guards and allowed the awful experience to work on their minds and hearts. By the mid-90s when pharmaceutical cocktails were available that transformed an HIV diagnosis from a certain death sentence to a chronic infection that could be treated, overall social attitudes towards gays had changed substantially. They still had a LONG, LONG WAYS TO GO, but a bridge had been crossed.
In the summer of 1977 when ABC announced its new sitcom "Soap" would feature an openly gay character (played by Bill Crystal), there were campaigns (and not only from explicitly religious institutions) to get it thrown off the air. Twenty-one years later, when NBC premiered "Will & Grace," it became a mainstream hit without a bit of protest and stayed on the air for eight years. Its mainstream popularity was a testament of changed societal attitudes generally, and its successful eight-year run probably contributed more than is calculable to changing attitudes even more.
I'm getting way off topic. My only point is that outside of certain communities, such as the performing arts community, bigotry toward, fear of, and disdain for homosexuals was the general norm for society in the late 70s/early 80s. Coupled with religion, it was even more toxic and extreme within the LDS organization.
Thank you for taking time to add more personal experience & reply to my comment @robbiefl58. I fear mine came off as diminishing the very real and widespread discrimination & hateful behavior & speech & often violence toward LGBTQIA+ people - that is everpresent at some level in society sadly and resurgent today. With Oaks now essentially in charge of the Corporation, for BYUs and Mormonism it will get worse before it gets better esp for trans people but also anyone outside the strict hetero and gender normativity. As a hetero F - even if gender nonconforming - I certainly was highly privileged. Several friends died of AIDS and many had similar closeted and deeply damaging, traumatizing life journeys to self and community acceptance - if they got there. I guess I just wanted to give some perpective that there were pockets - even in small midwestern towns - of support & allyship.
I am so sorry for all you and your friends had to suffer. May you heal and be well. Thanks again, this episode is searing and so painful to listen to. I am grateful for all of your honesty & that you are here today to share with us. I apologize for diminishing your real persecution, fear, and trauma. As a NeverMo raised secular there are a lot of things I will understand intellectually but not emotionally. Also, being a dance kid, yes the arts were a little pocket of more openness for many.
It wasn't until the slide show at the end that the tears really started flowing.Yup, tissues nearby needed. What beautiful men. If only they could have lived openly & happily then. Mormon - "more good"?. Nope. Its not good. And its not true.
“Just leave.”
In my experience, many gay Mormons and gay ex-Mormons like believing that "because the church changed on polygamy and the priesthood ban, eventually it will change to accept gay people too." I think this is naive and incorrect.
Polygamy was openly taught for only about 40 years and then its practice officially suspended, and a majority of Mormon men never were polygamous. The priesthood ban was always accompanied by statements that at some future point, it would change.
These things are not true of the church's approach to homosexuality. A heterosexual gender binary to which every "spirit child of God" must conform is baked into the most fundamental structures of Mormon theology. "Exaltation", which is supposed to be theoretically available to every person ever born, requires a hetero temple marriage to achieve, and eternal procreation is implicit as a privilege and a responsibility of such marriages. The words of the sealing ceremony itself confirm this: "I say unto you be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, that you may have joy and rejoicing in your posterity in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ." God the Father is believed/assumed to be married to "Heavenly Mother." (Full disclosure: I was a temple sealer and know what I'm talking about). The highest level of the Celestial Kingdom promises "eternal increase" achievable only through some kind of heterosexual relations. And since the whole point of vicarious ordinances is the principle that they must be made available to every person who has ever lived or else God is not fair and just, the same goes for the chance to achieve exaltation too. Thus, Mormon theology is simply saturated in, and predicated on, the assumption that EVERYONE MUST BE STRAIGHT.
Polygamy and the priesthood ban were never remotely this fundamental to the entire edifice. Kick this part of the structure away, and the legitimacy of the entire thing collapses. Instant conclusions and results of Mormonism accepting gay relationships include (1) Joseph Smith's own revelations and theology were incomplete, with huge gaps that ignored hundreds of millions of people throughout history. Who amongst the current risk-averse former corporate executives in senior leadership wants to be the one that openly questions "the founding prophet of the restoration"?; (2) There is no basis for any gender-based distinctions anywhere in the church if gay and lesbian couples' marriages are legit, because who "presides" in a home with two female spouses? There goes the basis for withholding the priesthood from women; (3) Over two centuries of gender-based discrimination, vociferously defended by past leaders, is thus shown to be wrong, in which case, where was their "inspiration", which in turn calls into question the legitimacy of the whole thing; (4) Decades of "prophetic" denunciation of homosexuality is shown to be wrong even though at the time it was presented as unquestionably the will of God, in which case again, what happened to "inspiration" and there goes any claim of consistent legitimacy; (5) "eternal increase" is no longer necessary for married couples, because gay couples can't have children the same way straight couples do. "All the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" which are "sealed upon" such couples in the temple don't matter anymore. Previous changes to polygamy and the priesthood ban didn't come within 100 miles of having these kinds of implications for the church and its teachings.
I will bet a month's salary that none of this is lost on current LDS leadership. I heard these same "Oh don't worry eventually they'll have to come around" predictions 15 years ago, and while since then the church has certainly softened its PR out of political necessity after the massive self-inflicted wound of Proposition 8, they have not softened the doctrine one bit; in fact, they've doubled down on their political investment to make sure their ability to enforce their rules is legally insulated. This is exactly what I predicted back then. Membership losses out of disagreement with the church on this issue are simply a cost of doing business to top leadership, who clearly would rather dig in their heels and keep the large majority of tithe-paying straight faithful in "the fold" rather than risk a schism by actually changing any doctrine. The Salt Lake Pride Parade is all well and good, but there simply aren't enough gay Mormons to change senior leadership's calculus on this.
Lastly, look at the top 15 line-up. Statistical odds are that Bednar--second only to Packer in his homophobia--will end up as LDS president, and probably for some time. If he has anything close to the longevity of recent presidents, he will be able to single-handedly prevent any further accommodations or liberalizations for literally decades to come. And he will pick new apostles that fit his views. This supports my prediction 15 years ago that LDS leadership will choose to double down rather than liberalize, because they recognize that any genuine doctrinal change on homosexuality threatens the legitimacy of the whole enterprise--and thus their own authority--in a way that changes to polygamy and the priesthood ban never did. If any such change does ever come, it will be long, long after all of us are gone. If so many Mormons rebelled against Nelson telling them to just put on a goddamn mask during the Covid pandemic, imagine the outrage from those same Mormons if any of Nelson's successors say "Oh, wait, NVM, forget everything we said before, gays are okay now, we'll let them get married in the temple." It'd be like January 6 at the Capitol, except at church HQ. No way "The Brethren" will risk that. Especially now that the only place the church is actually growing is in notoriously homophobic Africa, where more than one country still jails and threatens gay people with the death penalty. Do you think they'll want to shut off that growth because a single digit percentage of comparatively privileged North American members wants a doctrinal change? NFW.
There is only one way out of this. Just leave the whole thing behind. Accept that it's not what it claims to be, and live a happy life outside it. Problem solved.
Was there a Live?
I will say this. If someone is gay they probably shouldn’t go to byu since you promise to be celibate or do semen retention as they say in Asia. It’s like alcoholics tend to avoid byu and go to the party school like UofU or Dixie which is now the lame tech of southern Utah or some lame freaking name. Seriously Brigham young would drink but you can’t now if you go to byu. It is interesting people think they’d make an exception for sexual proclivities or any nature since you’re supposed to be celibate.
Ray wasn’t gay.
The church will accept gays and women in the priesthood slowly overtime it will happen. The doctrine will change, and they will disavow like the pre existence valiant spirits and blacks withpriesthood. .
Rebecca talked as much or more than her guests. While I appreciate her enthusiasm, I would really rather hear from the guests. I wish she’d learn to facilitate the conversation better rather than get in the way of her guests revealing their knowledge and experience.
I know! I had a hard time because we had talked beforehand and been texting throughout the month and we really felt like we were just out to dinner all talking at the same time! I know that doesn’t translate very well on the podcast ha ha! I actually think these guys should start their own podcast!
Since Rebecca is the one who made the whole episode possible I think she’s earned the right to say what she feels needed to be said on this episode. This was an episode of passion for her as she worked with Rob Lauer to gather this group of men and get them all on at the same time. This was her brain child and it took her months to get this episode together. But once we recorded the episode she wasn’t satisfied she wanted a slide show of their pictures from BYU and she spent several more weeks getting that all together. I hope people understand the time and love that goes into an episode like this and it shouldn’t be surprising when the passion for the subject comes out in the episode.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Amen and Amen!
@@rebeccabibliotheca Thank you for spearheading this and creating and relaxed, friendly atmosphere in which we all felt comfortable essentially saying anything we felt moved to say. Viewers have no way of knowing how nervous some of these wonderful guys were about opening up about their experiences publicly. Every one of them hesitated at first when I approached them about appearing on the podcast and all of them thought long and hard before agreeing to appear. All of them feel in love with you, Rebecca and your warm, welcoming, good-natured self. You go, Girl!
@rebeccabibliotheca You moderated this panel fairly and enthusiastically! Thank you!
How many of you church critics are sincer in your pro LGBTQ dialog and not just waving the rainbow flag now because it's trendy?
I can only speak for myself…I have met so many incredible LGBT friends and am sincerely impressed with the kindness, intelligence, and loving attitude I have experienced. I will take my LGBT friends over my “church” friends any day! They don’t drop me like a hot potato when my views differ from theirs and believe me when I say my interaction with these friends has made me a better person with out question
Its shocking that this shame is perpertrated on young adults...whst a christian church..not!!. They were racist and thats not a sin...hypocrisy..