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I deleted my old comment because I’ve listened to this and have to say I’ve come to agree with everything said here. It’s taken me a long time, but I think I can say I’m sold on postmil and appreciate the argument against complementarianism and how devastating and defeating a dispensational premil view can be to a person and society. This was especially evident after I heard a RUclipsr the other day say, “What’s the point of fixing my car when we know that Jesus is coming back within 1-2 years?” Yikes. Thankful for this podcast and how it constantly challenges my thinking and reveals how much of my thinking has been rooted in feminism and I didn’t even know it.
Well Lindsay I can sorta agree with you. We are called to occupy this Earth and be good stewards as Christians and not just give up and wait. But I also see in scriptures where It's said we as his children won't fall under God's wrath. We may suffer under man's wrath but not God's which is what the book of Revelation is about. I also think there's a danger of OSAS and have seen great sinner Christians blatantly rely on this to condone lifestyles not of God.
I love all four of these brothers. But I’m in agreement with Joel, Dan, Eric, and Brian’s Podcast has been extremely encouraging. These guys are building something, together and I love that!!!
THANK YOU JESUS! Even though I’m still struggling to put groceries in the refrigerator. I STILL TRUST YOU LORD! Faith is trusting in God durning hard times. Faith is what is getting me through my hard situation. I’m still struggling to providing for my two autistic children since losing my job over declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health condition (Lupus) and Heart disease. I was denied my medical/religious exemption from Forsyth Hospital. My husband passed away three years ago, so I’m all alone. Both of my sons are non verbal so things are more hard on me. Every month I don’t know how we are going to make it through. Every month is a struggle, a battle to not end up on the streets. I’m so depressed and embarrassed by my situation. I’ve been put down and mocked over my circumstances. I’m so ashamed and overwhelmed. BUT because of my faith God shows up every month and provides. He has even sent strangers to help me, thank you Father. Even as I face homelessness with two young children seemingly every month! I know that God will provide abundantly. Thank you Jesus. I BELIEVE!
Praying for you sister and your children and your whole situation. I also agree with Jason and Timo's comments as well. He IS faithful... And HIS timing is PERFECT!!! 💓🙏
Why would lupus have anything to do with whether you took the vaccine or not? That strikes me like not getting a flu shot because you have a broken arm. I'm glad you didn't get it because I oppose the vaccine for using fetal tissue, for being mandated in violation of our inalienable rights, and for lack of testing. But I'm confused about why having lupus would be relevant. My sister got the shot and she has lupus. I personally do not believe that God will provide abundantly but that doesn't affect my trust in Him one way or the other. I think if you judge your belief based on your circumstances then your faith will be vulnerable. God didn't stop the stones from crushing Stephen or the sword from stabbing James. I have faith in God's will being done, and I fully expect that His will involves pain, suffering, deprivation, and death for me. I know that going in, and so it's not going to shake my faith when it happens.
Here goes the charismatic issue. It seems that the Reformed people, of which I am - let me say, I am Reformed big-time, but we can't be afraid of emotion. So long as it does not drive our decisions. Impassiveness , as is the attribute of the Lord should be our goal. Yet so many people who name the Name of the Lord are afraid to be joyous, full of zeal, except anger or negative emotions it seems. Yet what about being full of positive emotions in balance? Hours on your knees and hearing from God? We say that God doesn't speak? Really? The Person of the Holy Spirit is our seal- we are the temple of the LORD. He comforts, consoles, teaches, and guides and we have fellowship with Him. The awesome brothers of mine have downplayed the power of fellowship with a Holy God and the gifts He so readily gives. And strangely up-played the words that represent the powerful truths we stand on,live by and love. It all is so near a pharisaical mindset. MacArthur said he thanks God that he was delivered from this esoteric idea of hours on his knees and such of being in the presence of the Lord. What are we talking about? God is real and "therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". This in no way is in contradistinction to theology. I love love love theology. Maybe I am in the tiny minority. But that's a problem. Because now we are all reacting to others errors instead of finding the truth of the Lord and his narrow way. We are to put to death the flesh and walk in the Spirit. We are to be raised in the body. Our emotions, are they going to be put away?? Are they? Or are emotions to have a perfect place? God gets angry. He loves. He is jealous. More and more. And much less Christ himself. And as far as myself, The Spirit speaks to me. Not in audible voice but in concert with the scriptures and in love and in various ways that are consistent with his will. I will not quench his Spirit. I will not become dead and Lukewarm. I love him with my whole heart, mind and soul. All my strength!! I will not deny Him. I love you Joel. Your teaching is very good. Daniel
Psalms 42:1-3 NASB1995 [1] As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God. [2] My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God? [3] My tears have been my food day and night, While they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?” Seems pretty emotive language to me. Emotions reveal a lot about the way we think about something. They are also motivational drivers of all of us. To be ignorant of that seems to me to be ignorant of the self.
Yes, I think it’s relevant to note that they are really talking about a futurist Amillennialist of the R2K type. A partial preterist amil really only differs from postmil in that we are more cautious about an overextended reading of victory in the current age, and what that must look like. We believe in all of Christ for all of life, and there will be victory, but will all believe in a nation, will it be all nations? Could it be a strong majority? These are places where I think we have reason to be realistic that scripture doesn’t tell us the details. And that’s ok. The secret things belong to God, the things revealed to us. It is revealed that the effects of the kingdom will be pervasive and that may be the victory until death is defeated.
What do u mean by the church failing to disciple the magistrate? Is the state under the church? How does the church do that? Go to Washington abd say make laws of righteousness? What exactly are u advocating as the work of the church?
The state isn’t under the church. Both are under God. The church is the ground and pillar of truth, and are duty-bound to instruct the civil magistrate as regarding his duties under God, as He has revealed in His holy word.
I am so grateful for ministries like this. I have unique position on all these topics. I grew up in a Dutch Reformed Church. It was not hyper Calvinistic in any way but actually there was a very liberal push from people who wanted to move the church into a place that was much more culturally friendly to put it nicely. I was just married and in my early 20's and really didn't understand the issues. If I think of my parents and grandparents the word presuppositional fits. I can not recall them ever not trusting in Gods providence and His rule over all of what they did. They simply trusted God. I do think however that a degree of complacency and belonging to the right "tribe" can be a danger. We left that church to join a new Reformed denomination (URC) . We left that church also because of a lack of children in that church, to go to a church that was not officially reformed but that had a Calvinistic and reformed pastor named Mike Wilkins who was also post mil and a wonderfully gifted teacher and pastor . Why am I telling you this? Because after being in that church 20 years, I am experiencing such clarity and a love for Christ that is just growing everyday and Joel you are helping me alot - Thank you. Unfortunately Mike Wilkins died of cancer in 2018 but he wrote a book in the year before he died and I am reading it now. What a beautiful depiction of how God works through faithful men and brings about His plan for His creation. The Book is called "Glory in the Face" by Mike Wilkins and I can hear him speak the words as I read it. Mike is writing it to show us his journey through his life and ministry is the will of God and how his cancer and death is also Gods Will and providence. Mike taught his post mil views to the church in a very loving and patient way. I am now training to be in ministry in a Christian counselling role so I have been talking to a number of other pastors over the last few years and many of them disagree with the post mil position. I am seeing now that it really is the view of eschatology that is most Biblical. I highly recommend getting the book and sharing it with others. www.amazon.ca/Glory-Face-Mike-Wilkins/dp/1773023977 gloryintheface.com/
He has ALL POWER. He will put all His enemies under His feet. Christians NEED to be taught HIS RULES. We lost the plot. We just "Hope" we do not lose the battle due to our lack of vision and trust. But He will raise up real warriors of the TRUTH. We will win in the end. It is a simple really.
But men and women DO complement each other. It's in God's design. I think it's a false dichotomy to say that they either complement each other or men are the head and the rulers. Both are true.
Yes, but society should be patriarchal. Which means that men should be the leaders in all areas of life. And a woman's main focus should be raising children and pleasing her husband. Otherwise you just end up with the current society, where women just want to take over everything.
I find it deeply disturbing the very error that people talk about in so many posts is the very error that they themselves are suffering from. I would talk to anyone about this if I thought it would do any good except it has been my experience that it doesn’t. Good people to listen to are the ones who preach in accordance with the Scriptures regardless of the consequences of being popular or not. God is Sovereign and He will reap the harvest in the end.
I always understood complimentarianism to be diametrically opposed to egalitarianism.. a contradiction in terms. My understanding of complimentarianism never put authority roles into question, it simply states that men and women are different, God has different roles for each, but that we compliment each other. A good example would be parenting. In the biblical model of parenting, the mother and father have different things they bring to the tabe, but they are complimentary and are both important to the development of the child. Perhaps there is a different meaning of complimentarianism that I am not aware of? Or perhaps the basic principle is exaggerated and wrongly applied, as in the case of authority structure? I don't really understand. I can not, given my current understanding, see how complimentarianism could possibly lead to androgeny.. the whole point is that men and women are different..
The problem is that society is completely opposed to any idea of men having leadership over a woman. What good is it to believe in complementarianism, if once you leave church, none of it applies anymore? We need to push for society to become more patriarchal. Men should be the leaders of our communities. Women should allow men to lead in all areas of life. Women should focus on raising their children, not on their careers
What would you say to someone who says that Jesus wasn't concerned with politics while on the earth and therefore we shouldn't be overly concerned with it either? It is true that Jesus didn't want to overthrow the roman government, despite a lot of people wanting him to, and didn't discuss roman political matters in any great depth in the gospels. Would appreciate your thoughts
There is a danger when you begin to focus too much on politics. You begin to try to change the world through laws, instead of focusing on reaching people for Christ. Laws will never make men more moral. Our focus should be on spreading the gospel, building up our churches, and strengthening our families and communities. If every Christian spent more time praying with their families and instructing children in the ways of God, and making sure their neighbors have heard the gospel, the world would be a much better place.
Sincere thankful for this discussion. America is not worthy to have teachers such as all of you but I am grateful. So wish we had a church like this in Greenville NC
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
What meaneth thou? To what is thee referring? For instance, altars and Baal is an idolatry thing. So I am wondering exactly what form of idolatry you are objecting. But yes, AMEN or anti amen.
@@bridegroomministries1212 calvinism says God is sovereign over all and that you cant go against his will. this verse shows that God has no unrighteousness in him. God is good. not evil. and we most definitely can go against God's will which he says in the Bible
The core of the discussion is opposing doctrines that disarm Christian soldiers. I agree totally in principle. Since I hate categorizing eschatology by one verse about the millennium, I would frame it differently. (Recently listened to R.C. Sproul characterize each of the "millennial" views, and I was saying to myself they are all wrong, I am not any of them fully.) Bad teachings: #1 That the church is the kingdom at least in this life. The problem being making Christian soldiers believe there is no battlefield except "saving souls", and confining the Lorship of Christ to the personal or the building on the corner with a steeple. #2 The parenthetical church age. Not only does this disarm soldiers and confine box in Christ's Lordship but it hides the glory of God and proof of his deity. Fulfilled prophecy is proof of God, and glorifying to Him. It pushes Christians into what Jesus labeled in Luke 24:25 as fools for not examining prophecy closely enough to recognize it being fulfilled before your eyes. These two in my mind largely encompass at least 4 of your list. #3 Teaching God's laws were only for the old testament except moral principles. This stems largely from the previous two problems. God gave laws to govern a KINGDOM! He did not just say kill someone in your heart and you are a sinner. He said put the first degree murderer to death, and anything else is injustice. If Christians will not even argue for a just system, we will not have justice before Christ forces it in person. #4 Wrongly dividing scripture on heaven and hell. Teaching heaven(where scripture teaches the birds fly, the clouds are, lightning is) as the goal and final destination and goal of the believer, rather than the Kingdom, is disarming. #4 Denying God's promises, prophecies, and history for the Northern Kingdom of Israel. This fuels all the confusion above regarding the kingdom, the covenants, fulfillment of prophecy and God's work in history. Compare Jer 17(Judah) vs 18(Northern Kingdom), Amos 9:9, and many more.
Ok. I know enough about John MarArhur to say that he doesn't teach that there are two ways for salvation, one for the Jews and one for the all the others. There is only one way.
Right but how many pre millennials are telling us all to sit on our hands and not fight back because the Rapture is any day now? I've got a family full of do nothings because Israel is back on the map and the Jews are sacred despite the fact they brow beat us with the media they own daily.
@@RightResponseMinistries A “leaky dispensationalist”. Oh, you are a dispensationalist-what kind (because you can’t have just one view in Baptistville on anything, you has to have a variety of views)? Yes, but I am “leaky dispensationalist” lol. Whatever that means. The only thing left behind in pre-tribulation, “secret rapture” theology is the Bible. It does nothing but sensationalize the times. There are variations of dispensationalism. There are flavors that teach Old Testament sacrifices will be re-instituted, etc., and that there is two salvation plans, one for the Jews and one for everyone else, etc. All flavors of premillennialism are heterodox teachings, and yes even MarArther’s “leaky dispensationalist” theory. The classical John Nelson Darby dispensationalist are dangerous. It certainly not a minor error. I am not sure what MacArthur means by leaky “dispensationalist”. Perhaps, he still makes the physical nation of Israel, not the church, the center of history, which would be entirely false sense of history. Then you have Postmillennialism, Christ returns after the millennium and the tribulation and that there will be a utopia on earth before Christ comes. Sigh. What a mess.
Macarthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus" (1988) is in part a polemic against the errors of certain fundamentalists and dispensationalists who had gone beyond drawing a distinction between Israel and the Church and tipped over into full-on heresy with stuff like carnal christianity, 'only-believe-ism'/cheap grace, two ways of salvation etc, and his thesis in the book is that Jesus taught 'lordship salvation,' that he cannot be your savior without also being your lord (you obey him).
Sorry but I haven’t listened to this podcast in its entirety yet. But I wanted to point out that TK isn’t completely incorrect in all of his thinking. We need to be careful of how much we take this man down. He has done a lot of good in the Lord for the brokenhearted, which I do not think will be unnoticed by Yours Truly ❤ The Kingdom is made of 7 imperfect churches ⭐️
Fellow Utahn here! And loved this conversation. Interesting to hear the experiences of A-mills a Pre-mills. Obviously there's a spectrum of beliefs and practical application in A-mill and Pre-mills. But what I've often found most in ministry and discipleship is that Pre-mills are dominantly doom and gloom minded. They rejoice in bad news, wonder if they should have kids, and have little hope. Whereas my experience with most A-mills is a solid understanding of Christ's Reign on heaven and earth and our role to expand His Kingdom through the church. The main difference I've experienced between post-mill and A-mill is just the optimism of every nation coming to Christ ushering in Christ's return vs A-mill just not being so sure that that's the finish line by them referring to the Kingdom reigning for a poetic - 1,000 years then the enemy being released to deceive all nations. Side note: catholic doctrines on eschatology is most likened to A-mill and they definitely took the stance of discipling the nations and ruling and reigning pretty seriously. Hence, Christendom. Love you guys!
I find some of these that takes to be particularly schismatic, although I find much of it to be very good as well. As an amil, I do not think that I have been rightly represented. I pray the Lord continues to bless these men and their ministries.
I understand what they're getting at with their criticism of complimentarianism, but I feel like the underlying issues are the real problem. Perhaps the whole concept of complimentarianism was built from the ground up to be subversive, but in all my years, I've never heard anyone use it to try and downplay hierarchy, but to uphold and bolster hierarchy. Perhaps it's a term that allows for a trojan horse, but it's really the underlying problem that is the underlying problem!
The problem is, if you truly believe the Christ reigns over all facets of society, then we should be welcoming a patriarchy. Men should be the leaders in society, not just in church. Women should be focused on raising their children, not on careers
I found this discussion hit home with recently finding out my brother’s church is Pastored by women. The lost of biblical principles around the God given roles of men and women is a disease Christians must take on with love through biblical truth for the glory of God.
This was so profitable. summarizing a lot of the Kings Hall podcast and so much helpful diagnoses of what’s off in American evangelicalism in such a short time.
@@hammerbarca6 I’m on my third listening of it. In my mind, this discussion has really helped connect a lot of the dots. For instance, the bit about Arminian prevenient grace being consonant with the egalitarianism of this age. Also, the bit about one of the functions of the Law being to educate (not a means of justification with God) the nations on what sin is, thus actually making it easier for Christians to witness and have gospel conversations, as opposed to now where for many people, the concept of sin as defined by God isn’t even a thing in their mind.
Who is the audience of this podcast, and what exactly would u say you are calling Christians to do ? Can u give clear answers? It seems you are bashing Christians and or the society . But what is it that you are calling the church to do?
i totally agree in the fact lets base our agreement on what that clear , cause sometimes when something are unclear and we try to make it make sense we creating more trouble
My Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Ps. 110:1) Indeed the Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning RIGHT NOW just awaiting for its consummation in God's perfect time! Hallelujah! 🙂
@@AgeDeo2009 False, Jesus will be reigning worldwide during the Millennium Kingdom after the consummation of the 7-year Tribulation Period of God’s terrible wrath on evil mankind.
@@Landis_Grant I respect your conviction on this matter. I'm just quoting Scripture that proves that the Lord Jesus is already reigning now. He himself said that "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst/among you" during his time on earth. He is my King of kings and Lord of lords. I hope that He is yours too. 🙂
I'm here trying to weigh the truth with spiritual discernment....I quit attending RCC about 2.5 years ago and am now attending my husband's Pentacostal church. After 2 years I feel like something is missing, but I have a problem with strict reform as I believe we as Christians need to abide in Jesus always so don't agree with OSAS. Jesus warns repeatedly in parables etc. About falling away. Also, I definitely don't believe Pentacostal stance about feeling the spirit and being baptized in the H. S. with evidence of talking in tongues. They had a woman Pastor speak once and she pushed talking in tongues and her prison ministry to women and men. I just don't feel that's my church home but reluctant to leave my husband worshipping with him. I have a hard time with all these terms used also...most of us just want to worship Jesus and have scriptures applied to our lives! I do believe in the rapture, millennial kingdom of Jesus, second coming as separate, and that you shouldn't try to limit God......
Actually, the Reformed tradition only kinda sorta believes in the cultural implications of OSAS. We do not affirm antinomianism/cheap grace. It's important to hold the idea that the truly saved Christian is the one who perseveres to the end (1 John 2:19), and is indeed saved by faith alone (Romans 3:28), but THAT saving faith will certainly result in works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
We can't limit God but he's limited us. And we need to spend more time thinking about his will for us than the unfathomable vastness of his being. It's not for us to know anyways but we can know him in the way in which he's designated our own being to know him apart from the beast and the angels.
Pietists were looking for more reality of the faith in their daily lives. Not all bad. People should read and study the Bible in their homes with friends and family.
Wow, this was awesome :) Thanks so much for explaining such great doctrines. The explanation of how egalitarianism lends itself to ultimate androgyny and disorder was eye-opening. I first heard of the Rapture from pre-mil folks and have never really sank my teeth into it -- I've always not liked the claimed exegesis behind the pre-mill thinking, so I'll have to look at your other videos regarding Post-mil theology. God bless! King's Hall podcast is also something I'll look up!
I'm young earth too. But where it says "be not ignorant of this fact, a day to God is as 1,000 years..." if God said it took him 1 day, isn't it possible if he created the world in 6,000 years, and rested for 1,000? Dosent that mirror 6,000 years of the world, and then the 1,000 yesr millennial reign of Christ for 1,000 years? It makes sense to me. 6k year creation, the last 1k years he rested. Then 6,000 years of troubled humanity, then jesus reigns and it's the rest
“Jesus, stop your weeping.” “Seriously…” “Don’t you know God is objectively in control?” Maybe I misunderstood you guys but this is what I hear. If I’m wrong I apologize but sometimes I think we don’t represent things holistically.
I don’t think complimentarianism was properly represented, but otherwise I found this episode super helpful and would love to hear more on these topics!
Agreed. It seemed to be passed off as a haphazard strawman equipped with egalitarian positions that in actually are pushed against by complimentarianism.
@@thulisavaveki - thanks, I’ll try to find it… I guess my understanding is limited, because I thought it was a binary with complementarianism opposed to egalitarianism… so I don’t know what the “third way” is that they’re choosing since it sounds like they reject both complementarianism and egalitarianism…
Lol of course you're here. This was FANTASTIC, right? I need this as a weekly segment. I've seen these guys on Twitter before but had no idea they did a pod. Definitely checking that out. This is my kind of Calvinism. Dynamic, direct, and theologically rigorous. Love it it!
@@pleasedontman Rooooiiiii my brother! 😂 Great to see you again. Yah I hadn’t heard of these guys either. Did you find their pod on the YT? I don’t usually do podcast apps, besides Canon+.
@@jaquirox6579 😃 I just hit their website to give them some traffic and listened there. I don't use any pod apps either. People have no idea how EXPLOSIVELY popular a muscular, reformed Christianity is going to be. Untangling all the poopy doctrine I've picked up through the years has been incredible and such a blessing. Happy you're so hip to good teaching!
I’m 23 min. in and already the over-riding theme (by at least 3 of the participants) is that Christianity’s “maturity” is “stunted” by anything that detracts the churches materialistic paradigm. The topic itself is very telling - “maturity” and “stunting” has everything to do with their very limited physical and material perceptions of the church of God. In that vain this critique will be said to be overly spiritualizing the subject and pious. These guys are mirroring Elijah (1Kings 19:14-18), looking purely at the material, external working of the church and leaning wholly upon establishment Christian religious tradition. The “denying legacy” argument being one of the clearest examples of an extra-biblical religious authority that pre-conditions what structures and determines the validity of theological ideas. This is similar to the established extra-biblical, religious authority the Pharisees relied upon, that structured and determined that they needed to kill Jesus - to the glory and honor of God of course. So I’d add another thing to the list that’s plaguing the church - Orthodox Christian materialism. Religious materialism takes it’s cues primarily from what can be seen, that like Elijah, wrestles w/ pride (self importance) and self-righteousness. The foundation of orthodoxed Christian materialism begins with an unhealthy romanticism of church history and the almost deification of it’s faulty documents - specifically in it errors regarding the authority of the temporal external church. The nucleus of orthodox Christian materialism is born out of a false paradigm around the authority of the temporal external church - it fosters unbelief and materialism primarily in that it obfuscates the distinctives between church membership w/ it’s ceremonies and true faith and salvation. The primarily impetus behind the materialistic emphasis from the church in general is that, unlike Elijah, most within the church are simply unbelievers. The major argument, for example, of the post-mils is the materialistic emphasis that centers mans work/effort (the church) in the consummation of all things. The “hook” that’s suppose to be this great motivator, incentive to the Christian “engaging culture” is this idea of WORK the Christian (the church) must do to usher in the kingdom of God. And it’s in this context that we can see the genesis of the pride and disappointment of Elijah in 1 Kings 19:14 as he laments, “I - I have been very jealous for the Lord….I, I ONLY, am left…”. That’s the underlying spirit of this conversation 23 min. in. and if you’re not thus motivated it’s because you’re either gnostic or pious. This is orthodox Christian materialism and it’s bad.
I wish someone would explain to me exactly what is the federal vision, how it differs from theonomy, and why many godly men I respect don't adhere to it.
The Federal Vision says that baptism is not only an entrance into the covenant community, the visible church, but a true saving union with Christ. This state of union is then dependent on a believer's continued faithfulness through good works throughout life, in order to be finally justified at death, so a true believer who had a true saving faith may fall away if he does not maintain faithfulness (FV advocates will confuse faithfulness with faith; they will speak of "faith alone", but their definition of "faith" includes works). This contrasts with classical Reformed soteriology, that acknowledges that justification is instantaneous and irrevocable at regeneration. A believer will necessarily consequently do good works in gratitude of his union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. These works will not be the ground of final justification at death, but vindicating evidence of a judgment of life on the basis of Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer.
There is so much that I i agree with here, even though i still am a pre-millenialist, and not hyper-Calvanistic. But I like to hear other people's view points and try to understand how they explain the questions that I would have regarding their views. I have to say, I have changed my views on more than a few things in my adult life because of this, but even though I've listened to several of your videos, I'm still far from convinced that we are in a post -mellinial world, even though I believe Christ is ruling and reigning all of creation today, the millenial reign has more to ti do with humanitie's geographical proximity to the throne of his sovereignty . I have to point out the weakest argument you made for this- most real Christians would not consider "its the most moderate view" as any kind of argument for one side or the other. Real Christians could not care less about how "moderate" a view is, but only how true it is. Which I see you are that way, i just wanted to point out that in that area, your being inconsistent. However, i have learned to hold my eschatological views more loosely, for prophecy is best understood in hindsight. I agree with soooo much though - and appreciate these videos very much.
It seems to me there is only one kingdom not multiple kingdoms. 1 Corinthians 15:24 [24]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Only thing I strongly disagree with on here is the idea that dispy Premils are willing to fight for the kingdom. They’re actually very disconnected to that idea because their mentality is “everything is going to crap. We are going to lose anyway. I can’t wait to get raptured.”
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 I’d be glad if that were the case but he seemed to imply (or possibly explicitly say, I don’t remember, I’d have to watch the whole video again) dispy premils.
Well if you can read English, that is what the NT teaches. The world will slide deeper and deeper into its filth and depravity till Christ returns. Remember the 2 examples Christ Himself uses, that of Noah and Lot.
@@cosmictreason2242 seems most dispy premils are immature then. Not saying every single one is like this, but I know plenty of dispies personally and they all have that mentality. And most of them are JMac-following, Calvinistic, progressive/“leaky” dispies.
God's word is not up for various interpretations. We don't have a variety of versions on other Bible doctrines. Proper exegesis is the laboring and digging into the word resulting in right doctrine. Having been premil for 30 yrs, then amil for 20 yrs in the reformed Calvinistic camp, then upon hearing the refuting of the false narratives of Mat 23-24, Mk 13, Lk 19, and Rev were all speaking to the 1st century church and the end of the old age or order of the Jews n temple worship. Upon careful and extensive research of these things I was convinced thru the merciful enlightenment of the HSpt that post mil is both optimistic n proper literal reading of the text. All 3 cannot all be right. Study well and long and voila the truth comes out that this world belongs to our God and he is redeeming all of it to his glory. We may have many yrs to go before all is reconciled but it will be done. Just as David conquered all the land of Israel, so the greater David will conquer all the earth, then return for a beautiful bride.
We got a lot of issues... but liberals, conservative, and authoritarians shut down discourse in the churches... and now you have an extremely polarized everything. The state of the union is a reflection of the state of the church.
On complementarianism:"When you create a theology because you want to soften the word of God or appease the culture... you've already lost. It may take 20 years to get the full fruit of it, but you've already lost the game." Great point. Next, let's review the Stone Choir podcast episode on Slavery & Scripture. The root of "conservative" complementarianism is the same root of "conservative" anti-slavery theology. Both are theological appeasements to post-enlightenment egalitarian philosophy, the full fruit of which is "race and gender are social constructs" open-borderism, globohomoism, and mutilated trans kids. Everyone is liberated, and nobody has right to tell me what to do. We know that Scripture nowhere condemns slavery, although it does heavily regulate it. But scripture only labels slavery itself a curse, as to Ham/Canaan/Egypt, or a blessing, as to Abraham/Job. The explicit commands in scripture regarding slavery do not condemn it. Because, how could they? We are slaves to Christ. Even if we politically oppose slavery for other reasons, which is permissible, we cannot name the institution itself sin (beyond the sinfulness use of it), because slavery remains the universal state of man: we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God. Either way, we are not our own. We are owned. By embracing anti-slavery theology, we end up inadvertently planting the seed of liberation from God's Lordship and ownership of us. "Jesus is my boyfriend," not my Lord, King, and Master. But our bodies are not our own: We were bought with a price. If we condemn slavery entirely, then we will ultimately undermine Christianity itself, and we will marvel at how quickly our society devolves into unchecked slavery to sin under the guise of "liberation."
Was wondering, regarding the thought that Christ "reigns" in all believers as LORD and Saviour, could it here in Rev. 5:10 be speaking of that very fact that the people from every tribe tongue and nation that the LORD saves become that "kingdom" of which Christ is talking about from Mark 1:15?? Revelation 5:9-10 NASB95 - 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Mark 1:15 NASB95 - 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
I agree with the list but I'm left wondering if the robust Calvinist Reformed theology was so good why was it lost/forgotten or replaced by the ideas on the list? To say unbelief is probably true but not intellectually satisfying.
Honest question relating to the video description: isn’t unbiblical the same as heretical? If not, what’s makes something unbiblical heresy? Ok, Joel provided an answer around 9:00 but I still don’t understand. If anything is unbiblical, it is wrong and therefore heretical. What am I missing? In talking about complementarianism, you’re talking about hierarchy as if we don’t believe in hierarchy. What else do we call it if it isn’t complementarianism? We certainly don’t believe in egalitarianism. When I talk about complementarianism, I describe it exactly how the hierarchy system was described here. I don’t know the guys name that was talking about it. I’m just trying to understand what postmils call it if it’s not complementarianism.
I would guess the difference to be a matter of proximity to the gospel. The closer the truth or error gets to affecting someone’s understanding of the gospel, the more vital (or, in the case of error, dangerous). Eschatology is not a salvation issue for example, and so there are several wrong choices in terms of them being false, but these wrong choices do not lead to hell. Maybe that’s not what they intend, but that’s a possible difference between the two, whether the given doctrine distorts the gospel and injures its hearers.
Thanks for this great time with these post mil bros who expose the many deceptions that have crept into the church. Those unclear about postmil I challenge you to do thorough search in the word, all I know who do this find postmil is the proper exegesis of the word, following in the wake of great men like J Edwards, John Knox, BB Warfield and many many others like James White who did this and was convinced by the word that post mil is the best interpretation.
I think you guys need to definitely read up on the issue of slavery. There never was any "race based slavery" as you said. If you want to be accurate in all things, then your ideas about slavery, when it happened, where, by whom etc are completely wrong. Please, please read up or watch some proper documentaries on the subject.
Love your work... just wondering where you got your "talent" figure, because I am a bit confused. Everything that I find on talents says that a talent was around 75 lbs, or 1,200 oz. We can use that to find out, in present monetary terms, how much the servants were entrusted with. Using the current spot price of silver, a talent is upwards of $26k USD today. If it was a talent of gold, then we're talking upwards of $2.2 mil USD. It's still a lot of money, so the point still stands. Dude was envious and bitter, or as Jesus says, "wicked and slothful".
Pastor Joel, Before I pick a bit at one thing you stated, want to first say I so enjoyed this discussion. It was edifying and had the courage to tackle the major issues amongst the brethren. But I did take issue with your comment about believing in old earth creation as heretical. Perhaps the comment was in jest (I hope so). But if not it is quite cold to someone like myself who is an old earther. I actually think it gives God more glory and is more wondrous for God to take billions of years in His creation. Moreover, God gave us the gift of scientific discovery and it is outside His character to do something like “give the appearance of age”. If you have the opportunity I encourage you to read ‘Creation and Time’ by Dr Hugh Ross. Think about just one thing. Did God really create all land animals, then create Adam and breathe life into him, have Adam name every animal, cause him to fall into a deep sleep, then create Eve from Adam all in one 24 hour period? Please don’t misunderstand, I am NOT a theistic evolutionist by any means and hold to sound doctrine of man being made distinctly and separate in His image. Thanks and God Bless!
Did God really create all land animals, then create Adam and breathe life into him, have Adam name every animal, cause him to fall into a deep sleep, then create Eve from Adam all in one 24 hour period? I know right, he could have done it in way less time.
@@jordantheriverman6143 Perhaps you could offer a more credible response than a sarcastic one-liner. As a Christian I believe all things are possible with God, and if He did create the universe in six literal 24 hour periods, it does not threaten my beliefs and I gladly accept that and offer praise in response. Simply stating it seems inconsistent with what God has revealed in His character to do so, at least from my reading Scripture. Please don’t be like the premils who are dogmatic and become insulting and refute with “heretic” at an orthodox view that may counter their own.
@@robertdagit4315 You need to spend a few hundred hours on Answers in Genesis until you repent of old earth. Your argument that it 'gives God more glory' is sentimental and moot, because God says he didn't create that way. Stop listening to Ross. If you don't believe in evolution, then there's no reason to believe in deep time either. All the rock layers are from the flood. There's plenty of time to name a few hundred kinds of animals in a morning. This can't seriously be your objection. That makes it look like you haven't really looked into this stuff. You can find the entirety of the Answers Books 1-4 on the website, a chapter per article, for free. Read it all.
@@cosmictreason2242 Appreciate your response, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I won’t repenting for something that is not a sin, however. The proclamation that I need to repent is akin to premils telling me I need to repent of being postmil. It is a secondary issue at best and not a salvational question.
@@robertdagit4315 it’s a salvation issue for the next generation who is taught not to trust the Bible. And it’s a matter of sanctification and the church’s witness. So it’s not irrelevant. I really hope you do go read the books. Totally free
Ok. What does patriarchy say then about Christian women interacting with the culture? Are we to submit to men in general - regardless of whether they are in a position of specific authority to us? I would describe myself as a hard complimentarian, but I do not apply the same submission to general men that I do to my husband, my pastor or the elders in my church. I would submit to men in authority at work, same as I would to anyone in authority. I have taught science college classes to adults when I was a working adult. Was I not supposed to have authority over my adult male students?
These are good questions, and I wonder that too. I believe e.g. that in NT times female upperclass women could give orders to male servants without that anybody would raise an eyebrow.
@@timoheule yes. I also wonder what single women should do. This is moot point for me at this time - I’m at home with kids and don’t have authority coming up around strange men - but we can’t assume women are always married in the home. Paul seemed to encourage women to remain single so they could work for the Lord in 1 Cor 7, so obviously there is supposed to be a way for women without husbands to exist in the world.
" I do not apply the same submission to general men that I do to my husband" How do you know? Youngsters can say they are being sexually pure because they're not sleeping together but they're cuddling, sneaking off and spending time alone, knitting their hearts together with romantic platitudes - would you affirm their self-assessment? My position is that you are doing something wrong whether or not you can see something which you would consider a negative consequence occurring. Why is it a problem? Well, why would it be a good thing for a woman to know that she has more freedom and authority in the civic sphere than in church or family? Would that not make her feel that God is holding out on her and that her husband is restricting her, provoking bitterness? Further, how can she submit to her husband if her boss says 'you need to work overtime tomorrow' but husband says we need to leave for vacation tomorrow. The reason why being under submission to another man is wrong is that your loyalty is divided (which is what the Bible really means when it talks about impurity, to be impure is to be 'mixed,' to have competing loyalties and affections). And the reason why being in authority is wrong is that it too tempts you to reject submission, besides being a poor example, AND the fact that you are taking the job from a man who would do it better (not that your immediate replacement would be that man).
@@cosmictreason2242 I do understand your points - and it is a major reason why I am at home with the kids, there were conflicts in loyalty - but this still doesn’t answer what women are supposed to DO about this. Single women do not have husbands to go off and work to support them, and depending on the field you are called to mentor new recruits. There are not really exclusively female jobs either nowadays, because of the feminization of men, as a Christian woman working in the world you would be frequently called on to train male recruits. I even went and taught at an ‘all female’ college and a significant fraction of my students were biological men who thought they were women. Saying we are taking jobs away from men is not helpful when men are taking away our female positions now claiming they are women. When the world is crazy we can at least acknowledge it is difficult to navigate. Second. You are speaking assuming that you are talking to women raised in the church. I didn’t come to Christ until my mid-twenties - after being raised in a feminist household and encouraged to get a PhD. Women are going to be called to Christ who have been immersed in this world, and we need to have a gentle way of telling them how to live rather than telling them that they are stealing jobs from better qualified men. That is not loving, nor honestly helpful. It just encourages women toward pride - ‘I had the highest scores in my class, I had better class data than any man in my department, blah blah blah’ - to compete with these men. Women are in the home not because we are stupid or ill qualified technically to do many jobs, but because God TOLD us to be there. If you start citing differences in intelligence bright women will just think they are the exceptions then. There are a lot of very smart women who are no doubt great at their jobs - and better than many men - but God calls us to do something different. Not because we are dumb, but because we are a different creation. Citing differences in qualifications is an atheist materialistic argument that can be overturned by a sufficiently strong or clever woman who can reach the ‘average male standard’. God’s command though is regardless of qualifications to SUBMIT to your created role.
@@katherinelipari6610 So many women in the workplace goes hard against Sound Doctrine (Titus 2:4). It has never been God's will at all. It has created all kinds of useless troubles and stress within the marriage unit. It has stolen from men their role of providers to the weaker (wives and children)and it has torn married women between the obedience and loyalty to their husbands and to random strangers in the workplace. This is deep treachery from women. Women are traitorous . It is sign of a deep rebellion against God . Any country that encourages that shows who it really serves. It has also cause prices to skyrocket especially in the field of real estate. Is has brought nothing good at all. Who can serve two masters ? Christ said no one can but women would be the exception ?? The truth is , as Cosmic Treason said , women now are more obedient and loyal to strangers than to their husbands and you wonder why marriage is in such a state ? You think we can mock and fool the Lord that way without reaping any bad consequence ? How come the modern church does not expose that ? Is she in bed with that wicked West and women's betrayal ? Where are the aged women who have the duty to teach that to the younger ones ? Shame on us for not fighting satanic feminism !
I think you misheard. What they said was non 5 point calvinists are just arminians. And that a lot from the young restless and reformed movement went apostate. You seem to be hearing what you want to hear instead of what they said
I wonder if it's wise to call Woke a religion in the public political square. I'm sure DC would be more than happy to codify freedom of religion for it.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but you guys seem to have too many overly simplistic analyses of things like R2K, Dispensationalism, complementarianism, etc. For example, one could make the case that the seeds of Dispensationalism began with the division (discontinuities) that the Westminster divines codified in the WCF between the so-called covenant of works, and the covenant of grace. Or put another way, between the pre-lapsarian covenant of meritorious works and the post-lapsarian covenant of unmerited favor. The divines posited strict discontinuities between God’s covenantal interactions before the fall from His covenantal interactions after the fall. And so the WCF planted the seeds for later Dispensational discontinuities that they see all throughout redemptive history.
the sweatervest dialogue he did with James White features him repudiating specific errors of FV to make it clear what he believed and currently believes.
Yall need some historical theology training because any perspectives that are this new within the church are deserving of intense scrutiny. (Note: didnt say they are heretical or wrong, just that they need to be examined due to their seeming non-conformity to historical christian thought) Agree on dispensational premillennialism (1830s), but the majority of the positions you hold only date back to the 20th century at best. By examining scripture within its historical context and exploring historical theology, you might find it odd that most of your beliefs are not akin to the beilefs of the reformers or the early church. P.S. theonomy logically necesitates a belief that sin is not part of human nature. Even when God was present in the Hebrew temple theonomy fell apart because of human nature (see judges, 1st and 2nd kings, ect.) Theonomy will never work without the complete and total remaking of heaven and earth to remove sin from the equation.
If Amillennialism spiritualizes (makes amorphous) Christ's rule, kingdom, etc., then how do you explain the many hard-core "Covenanters" out there who are Amillennialists? I mean, this presentation puts forth a caricature of Amillennialism, one as an Amillennialist I don't recognize. You seem to be describing a flavor of Amillennialism popular among liberal or progressive theologians, not an Amillennialism held by actual Jesus loving, Bible Believing, Covenenter Christians. Covenanter-Amillennialists would agree with Christ's actual rule over the nations (Psalm 2, Col. 1:16, etc.), the idea that all nations should pattern their laws on the Law of God (Moses-Christ), that Biblical law interprets Natural Law and both are God's Law mankind is to obey; that there are three spheres of Christ's rule (Civil, Church, Family), etc., etc., etc. A good place to find these Amillennialists is in the RPCNA, for example, a denomination that has a good number of both Amillennialist and Post-Millennialist among its Teaching and Ruling Elders, FWIW. You might want to re-calculate your conclusions about Amillennialism. Just sayin'
Confessional Lutherans only teach one view - Amillennialism. Amillennialism, is certainly not another form of “pietism”. Most of American Protestantism is premillennial gnostic pietism. Pietism is bad, piety good. Confessional Lutherans certainly do not spiritualize Amillennialism.
@@P-el4zd question - Do you see me as a “Confessional Lutheran”? If so, I would set the record straight, I am a “Covenanter”. Apologize if I caused some misunderstanding. Covenanters are Confessional Presbyterians (not all Confessional P’s are Covenanters, but all Covenanters are Confessional P’s), for the most part. Historically, Covenanters are Post-Mill. I am an odd one out in that I am an optimistic Amill. Yes, I take my share of good natured teasing about that from my family, so I am comfortable with other views (Except Dispensationalism, a heresy.
True. I would say that Amil and Postmil are very similar. Except that one is more optimistic about the direction of society. And one is more pessimistic about the direction of society.
It’s all about the gospel or it’s just noise, a dispensationalist will preach the cross for salvation, you can argue doctrine and timelines but it is the souls that matter.
The whole conversation is in "isms" not rooted and grounded in scripture. Not teaching just stroking their own ego. Take a stand based on the scripture and your doctrine. 2Ti 3:1-7 KJV 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Just wow, mocking amils who are proclaiming the true gospel of Christ. Its one thing to say you couldn't partner in ministry with them, another to seem to indicate that the are a danger to the kingdom of Christ.
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I deleted my old comment because I’ve listened to this and have to say I’ve come to agree with everything said here. It’s taken me a long time, but I think I can say I’m sold on postmil and appreciate the argument against complementarianism and how devastating and defeating a dispensational premil view can be to a person and society.
This was especially evident after I heard a RUclipsr the other day say, “What’s the point of fixing my car when we know that Jesus is coming back within 1-2 years?” Yikes.
Thankful for this podcast and how it constantly challenges my thinking and reveals how much of my thinking has been rooted in feminism and I didn’t even know it.
Well Lindsay I can sorta agree with you. We are called to occupy this Earth and be good stewards as Christians and not just give up and wait. But I also see in scriptures where It's said we as his children won't fall under God's wrath. We may suffer under man's wrath but not God's which is what the book of Revelation is about. I also think there's a danger of OSAS and have seen great sinner Christians blatantly rely on this to condone lifestyles not of God.
“They spiritualize Jesus right out of his lordship” weeww thats a haymaker, amen brother!
Thanks!
I love all four of these brothers. But I’m in agreement with Joel, Dan, Eric, and Brian’s Podcast has been extremely encouraging. These guys are building something, together and I love that!!!
This was the first time I understood the objection to complementarianism. Thank you all!
THANK YOU JESUS! Even though I’m still struggling to put groceries in the refrigerator. I STILL TRUST YOU LORD! Faith is trusting in God durning hard times. Faith is what is getting me through my hard situation. I’m still struggling to providing for my two autistic children since losing my job over declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health condition (Lupus) and Heart disease. I was denied my medical/religious exemption from Forsyth Hospital. My husband passed away three years ago, so I’m all alone. Both of my sons are non verbal so things are more hard on me. Every month I don’t know how we are going to make it through. Every month is a struggle, a battle to not end up on the streets. I’m so depressed and embarrassed by my situation. I’ve been put down and mocked over my circumstances. I’m so ashamed and overwhelmed. BUT because of my faith God shows up every month and provides. He has even sent strangers to help me, thank you Father. Even as I face homelessness with two young children seemingly every month!
I know that God will provide abundantly. Thank you Jesus. I BELIEVE!
Go to your local Church(es)! Their might be one living what they preach.
He is faithful. Continue to trust in this difficult time. Lord bless you and keep you
Praying for you sister and your children and your whole situation. I also agree with Jason and Timo's comments as well. He IS faithful... And HIS timing is PERFECT!!! 💓🙏
Why would lupus have anything to do with whether you took the vaccine or not? That strikes me like not getting a flu shot because you have a broken arm.
I'm glad you didn't get it because I oppose the vaccine for using fetal tissue, for being mandated in violation of our inalienable rights, and for lack of testing. But I'm confused about why having lupus would be relevant. My sister got the shot and she has lupus.
I personally do not believe that God will provide abundantly but that doesn't affect my trust in Him one way or the other. I think if you judge your belief based on your circumstances then your faith will be vulnerable. God didn't stop the stones from crushing Stephen or the sword from stabbing James. I have faith in God's will being done, and I fully expect that His will involves pain, suffering, deprivation, and death for me. I know that going in, and so it's not going to shake my faith when it happens.
Here goes the charismatic issue. It seems that the Reformed people, of which I am - let me say, I am Reformed big-time, but we can't be afraid of emotion. So long as it does not drive our decisions. Impassiveness , as is the attribute of the Lord should be our goal. Yet so many people who name the Name of the Lord are afraid to be joyous, full of zeal, except anger or negative emotions it seems. Yet what about being full of positive emotions in balance? Hours on your knees and hearing from God? We say that God doesn't speak? Really? The Person of the Holy Spirit is our seal- we are the temple of the LORD. He comforts, consoles, teaches, and guides and we have fellowship with Him. The awesome brothers of mine have downplayed the power of fellowship with a Holy God and the gifts He so readily gives. And strangely up-played the words that represent the powerful truths we stand on,live by and love. It all is so near a pharisaical mindset.
MacArthur said he thanks God that he was delivered from this esoteric idea of hours on his knees and such of being in the presence of the Lord. What are we talking about? God is real and "therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". This in no way is in contradistinction to theology. I love love love theology. Maybe I am in the tiny minority. But that's a problem. Because now we are all reacting to others errors instead of finding the truth of the Lord and his narrow way. We are to put to death the flesh and walk in the Spirit. We are to be raised in the body. Our emotions, are they going to be put away?? Are they? Or are emotions to have a perfect place? God gets angry. He loves. He is jealous. More and more. And much less Christ himself. And as far as myself, The Spirit speaks to me. Not in audible voice but in concert with the scriptures and in love and in various ways that are consistent with his will. I will not quench his Spirit. I will not become dead and Lukewarm. I love him with my whole heart, mind and soul. All my strength!! I will not deny Him.
I love you Joel. Your teaching is very good.
Daniel
I agree with your assessment wonderfully put
Psalms 42:1-3 NASB1995
[1] As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God. [2] My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God? [3] My tears have been my food day and night, While they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
Seems pretty emotive language to me.
Emotions reveal a lot about the way we think about something. They are also motivational drivers of all of us. To be ignorant of that seems to me to be ignorant of the self.
In an unspoken "commandment" among younger Christian men: Thou shalt grow a beard.
I am an optimistic partial preterist Amil. I am very drawn to postmil. Praying God clears this all up for me over time.
The first step to having the “right view” of end times is being open to another view, at least in my opinion…
Yes, I think it’s relevant to note that they are really talking about a futurist Amillennialist of the R2K type. A partial preterist amil really only differs from postmil in that we are more cautious about an overextended reading of victory in the current age, and what that must look like.
We believe in all of Christ for all of life, and there will be victory, but will all believe in a nation, will it be all nations? Could it be a strong majority?
These are places where I think we have reason to be realistic that scripture doesn’t tell us the details. And that’s ok.
The secret things belong to God, the things revealed to us. It is revealed that the effects of the kingdom will be pervasive and that may be the victory until death is defeated.
What do u mean by the church failing to disciple the magistrate? Is the state under the church? How does the church do that? Go to Washington abd say make laws of righteousness? What exactly are u advocating as the work of the church?
Now you aren't allowed to ask such questions lol. It exposes their lack of Scripture used to make their theonomic arguments.
The state isn’t under the church. Both are under God. The church is the ground and pillar of truth, and are duty-bound to instruct the civil magistrate as regarding his duties under God, as He has revealed in His holy word.
I am so grateful for ministries like this. I have unique position on all these topics. I grew up in a Dutch Reformed Church. It was not hyper Calvinistic in any way but actually there was a very liberal push from people who wanted to move the church into a place that was much more culturally friendly to put it nicely. I was just married and in my early 20's and really didn't understand the issues. If I think of my parents and grandparents the word presuppositional fits. I can not recall them ever not trusting in Gods providence and His rule over all of what they did. They simply trusted God. I do think however that a degree of complacency and belonging to the right "tribe" can be a danger. We left that church to join a new Reformed denomination (URC) . We left that church also because of a lack of children in that church, to go to a church that was not officially reformed but that had a Calvinistic and reformed pastor named Mike Wilkins who was also post mil and a wonderfully gifted teacher and pastor . Why am I telling you this? Because after being in that church 20 years, I am experiencing such clarity and a love for Christ that is just growing everyday and Joel you are helping me alot - Thank you. Unfortunately Mike Wilkins died of cancer in 2018 but he wrote a book in the year before he died and I am reading it now. What a beautiful depiction of how God works through faithful men and brings about His plan for His creation. The Book is called "Glory in the Face" by Mike Wilkins and I can hear him speak the words as I read it. Mike is writing it to show us his journey through his life and ministry is the will of God and how his cancer and death is also Gods Will and providence. Mike taught his post mil views to the church in a very loving and patient way. I am now training to be in ministry in a Christian counselling role so I have been talking to a number of other pastors over the last few years and many of them disagree with the post mil position. I am seeing now that it really is the view of eschatology that is most Biblical. I highly recommend getting the book and sharing it with others.
www.amazon.ca/Glory-Face-Mike-Wilkins/dp/1773023977
gloryintheface.com/
We need a deeper understanding of who we are and what we have in Christ Jesus and a right view of eschatology greatly contributes to this.
Pastor Joel, the words you said beginning around 35:00 have been incredibly helpful for me. Thank you.
He has ALL POWER. He will put all His enemies under His feet. Christians NEED to be taught HIS RULES. We lost the plot. We just "Hope" we do not lose the battle due to our lack of vision and trust. But He will raise up real warriors of the TRUTH. We will win in the end. It is a simple really.
But men and women DO complement each other. It's in God's design. I think it's a false dichotomy to say that they either complement each other or men are the head and the rulers. Both are true.
Yes, but society should be patriarchal. Which means that men should be the leaders in all areas of life. And a woman's main focus should be raising children and pleasing her husband. Otherwise you just end up with the current society, where women just want to take over everything.
I found Kings Hall thanks to you Pastor Joel! I’ve listened to them all and now going through again. So good! Thank you
Their podcast is fantastic.
I find it deeply disturbing the very error that people talk about in so many posts is the very error that they themselves are suffering from. I would talk to anyone about this if I thought it would do any good except it has been my experience that it doesn’t. Good people to listen to are the ones who preach in accordance with the Scriptures regardless of the consequences of being popular or not. God is Sovereign and He will reap the harvest in the end.
I always understood complimentarianism to be diametrically opposed to egalitarianism.. a contradiction in terms. My understanding of complimentarianism never put authority roles into question, it simply states that men and women are different, God has different roles for each, but that we compliment each other. A good example would be parenting. In the biblical model of parenting, the mother and father have different things they bring to the tabe, but they are complimentary and are both important to the development of the child. Perhaps there is a different meaning of complimentarianism that I am not aware of? Or perhaps the basic principle is exaggerated and wrongly applied, as in the case of authority structure? I don't really understand. I can not, given my current understanding, see how complimentarianism could possibly lead to androgeny.. the whole point is that men and women are different..
The problem is that society is completely opposed to any idea of men having leadership over a woman. What good is it to believe in complementarianism, if once you leave church, none of it applies anymore? We need to push for society to become more patriarchal. Men should be the leaders of our communities. Women should allow men to lead in all areas of life. Women should focus on raising their children, not on their careers
@@nerychristianthankfully that’s not going to happen.
What would you say to someone who says that Jesus wasn't concerned with politics while on the earth and therefore we shouldn't be overly concerned with it either? It is true that Jesus didn't want to overthrow the roman government, despite a lot of people wanting him to, and didn't discuss roman political matters in any great depth in the gospels. Would appreciate your thoughts
There is a danger when you begin to focus too much on politics. You begin to try to change the world through laws, instead of focusing on reaching people for Christ. Laws will never make men more moral. Our focus should be on spreading the gospel, building up our churches, and strengthening our families and communities. If every Christian spent more time praying with their families and instructing children in the ways of God, and making sure their neighbors have heard the gospel, the world would be a much better place.
Sincere thankful for this discussion. America is not worthy to have teachers such as all of you but I am grateful. So wish we had a church like this in Greenville NC
Jeremiah 19:5
“They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
What meaneth thou? To what is thee referring? For instance, altars and Baal is an idolatry thing. So I am wondering exactly what form of idolatry you are objecting. But yes, AMEN or anti amen.
@@bridegroomministries1212 calvinism says God is sovereign over all and that you cant go against his will. this verse shows that God has no unrighteousness in him. God is good. not evil.
and we most definitely can go against God's will which he says in the Bible
The core of the discussion is opposing doctrines that disarm Christian soldiers. I agree totally in principle. Since I hate categorizing eschatology by one verse about the millennium, I would frame it differently. (Recently listened to R.C. Sproul characterize each of the "millennial" views, and I was saying to myself they are all wrong, I am not any of them fully.) Bad teachings: #1 That the church is the kingdom at least in this life. The problem being making Christian soldiers believe there is no battlefield except "saving souls", and confining the Lorship of Christ to the personal or the building on the corner with a steeple. #2 The parenthetical church age. Not only does this disarm soldiers and confine box in Christ's Lordship but it hides the glory of God and proof of his deity. Fulfilled prophecy is proof of God, and glorifying to Him. It pushes Christians into what Jesus labeled in Luke 24:25 as fools for not examining prophecy closely enough to recognize it being fulfilled before your eyes. These two in my mind largely encompass at least 4 of your list. #3 Teaching God's laws were only for the old testament except moral principles. This stems largely from the previous two problems. God gave laws to govern a KINGDOM! He did not just say kill someone in your heart and you are a sinner. He said put the first degree murderer to death, and anything else is injustice. If Christians will not even argue for a just system, we will not have justice before Christ forces it in person. #4 Wrongly dividing scripture on heaven and hell. Teaching heaven(where scripture teaches the birds fly, the clouds are, lightning is) as the goal and final destination and goal of the believer, rather than the Kingdom, is disarming. #4 Denying God's promises, prophecies, and history for the Northern Kingdom of Israel. This fuels all the confusion above regarding the kingdom, the covenants, fulfillment of prophecy and God's work in history. Compare Jer 17(Judah) vs 18(Northern Kingdom), Amos 9:9, and many more.
Ok.
I know enough about John MarArhur to say that he doesn't teach that there are two ways for salvation, one for the Jews and one for the all the others. There is only one way.
Right but how many pre millennials are telling us all to sit on our hands and not fight back because the Rapture is any day now? I've got a family full of do nothings because Israel is back on the map and the Jews are sacred despite the fact they brow beat us with the media they own daily.
Yes. He would describe himself as a “leaky” Dispensationalists. He certainly holds to one way of salvation.
@@RightResponseMinistries A “leaky dispensationalist”. Oh, you are a dispensationalist-what kind (because you can’t have just one view in Baptistville on anything, you has to have a variety of views)? Yes, but I am “leaky dispensationalist” lol. Whatever that means.
The only thing left behind in pre-tribulation, “secret rapture” theology is the Bible. It does nothing but sensationalize the times. There are variations of dispensationalism. There are flavors that teach Old Testament sacrifices will be re-instituted, etc., and that there is two salvation plans, one for the Jews and one for everyone else, etc.
All flavors of premillennialism are heterodox teachings, and yes even MarArther’s “leaky dispensationalist” theory. The classical John Nelson Darby dispensationalist are dangerous. It certainly not a minor error. I am not sure what MacArthur means by leaky “dispensationalist”. Perhaps, he still makes the physical nation of Israel, not the church, the center of history, which would be entirely false sense of history.
Then you have Postmillennialism, Christ returns after the millennium and the tribulation and that there will be a utopia on earth before Christ comes.
Sigh. What a mess.
Macarthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus" (1988) is in part a polemic against the errors of certain fundamentalists and dispensationalists who had gone beyond drawing a distinction between Israel and the Church and tipped over into full-on heresy with stuff like carnal christianity, 'only-believe-ism'/cheap grace, two ways of salvation etc, and his thesis in the book is that Jesus taught 'lordship salvation,' that he cannot be your savior without also being your lord (you obey him).
Somebody needs to clip 33:50 to 37:30. Great rundown of how Two Kingdoms actually works.
Really appreciate that. We’ll get it done.
Sorry but I haven’t listened to this podcast in its entirety yet. But I wanted to point out that TK isn’t completely incorrect in all of his thinking. We need to be careful of how much we take this man down. He has done a lot of good in the Lord for the brokenhearted, which I do not think will be unnoticed by Yours Truly ❤ The Kingdom is made of 7 imperfect churches ⭐️
Fellow Utahn here! And loved this conversation. Interesting to hear the experiences of A-mills a Pre-mills. Obviously there's a spectrum of beliefs and practical application in A-mill and Pre-mills. But what I've often found most in ministry and discipleship is that Pre-mills are dominantly doom and gloom minded. They rejoice in bad news, wonder if they should have kids, and have little hope. Whereas my experience with most A-mills is a solid understanding of Christ's Reign on heaven and earth and our role to expand His Kingdom through the church. The main difference I've experienced between post-mill and A-mill is just the optimism of every nation coming to Christ ushering in Christ's return vs A-mill just not being so sure that that's the finish line by them referring to the Kingdom reigning for a poetic - 1,000 years then the enemy being released to deceive all nations.
Side note: catholic doctrines on eschatology is most likened to A-mill and they definitely took the stance of discipling the nations and ruling and reigning pretty seriously. Hence, Christendom.
Love you guys!
I find some of these that takes to be particularly schismatic, although I find much of it to be very good as well. As an amil, I do not think that I have been rightly represented. I pray the Lord continues to bless these men and their ministries.
The kings hall is legit!
I understand what they're getting at with their criticism of complimentarianism, but I feel like the underlying issues are the real problem. Perhaps the whole concept of complimentarianism was built from the ground up to be subversive, but in all my years, I've never heard anyone use it to try and downplay hierarchy, but to uphold and bolster hierarchy. Perhaps it's a term that allows for a trojan horse, but it's really the underlying problem that is the underlying problem!
The problem is, if you truly believe the Christ reigns over all facets of society, then we should be welcoming a patriarchy. Men should be the leaders in society, not just in church. Women should be focused on raising their children, not on careers
Image a conference with kings hall, that would be amazing.
I found this discussion hit home with recently finding out my brother’s church is Pastored by women. The lost of biblical principles around the God given roles of men and women is a disease Christians must take on with love through biblical truth for the glory of God.
This was so profitable. summarizing a lot of the Kings Hall podcast and so much helpful diagnoses of what’s off in American evangelicalism in such a short time.
Thanks for your encouragement.
@@RightResponseMinistries I may be listening to it again…. The “4th” again 😆
@@hammerbarca6 that’s great!
@@hammerbarca6 I’m on my third listening of it. In my mind, this discussion has really helped connect a lot of the dots. For instance, the bit about Arminian prevenient grace being consonant with the egalitarianism of this age. Also, the bit about one of the functions of the Law being to educate (not a means of justification with God) the nations on what sin is, thus actually making it easier for Christians to witness and have gospel conversations, as opposed to now where for many people, the concept of sin as defined by God isn’t even a thing in their mind.
Who is the audience of this podcast, and what exactly would u say you are calling Christians to do ? Can u give clear answers? It seems you are bashing Christians and or the society . But what is it that you are calling the church to do?
i totally agree in the fact lets base our agreement on what that clear , cause sometimes when something are unclear and we try to make it make sense we creating more trouble
Thanks for the recommendation! I’ve been looking for new content/channels😊
I've enjoyed Brian's music lately
Psalm 2 is on repeat over here.
The Five are:
1. Errors of Calvinism
2. NAR New Apostolic Reformation
3. Post-millennialism
4. Social Gospel
5. Preterism
My Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Ps. 110:1) Indeed the Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning RIGHT NOW just awaiting for its consummation in God's perfect time! Hallelujah! 🙂
@@AgeDeo2009 False, Jesus will be reigning worldwide during the Millennium Kingdom after the consummation of the 7-year Tribulation Period of God’s terrible wrath on evil mankind.
@@Landis_Grant I respect your conviction on this matter. I'm just quoting Scripture that proves that the Lord Jesus is already reigning now. He himself said that "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst/among you" during his time on earth. He is my King of kings and Lord of lords. I hope that He is yours too. 🙂
Brother, what a podcast! Thank you, and keep on!
Thank you!
2 yrs later, this is more relevant than ever!! Carry on men!
I'm here trying to weigh the truth with spiritual discernment....I quit attending RCC about 2.5 years ago and am now attending my husband's Pentacostal church. After 2 years I feel like something is missing, but I have a problem with strict reform as I believe we as Christians need to abide in Jesus always so don't agree with OSAS. Jesus warns repeatedly in parables etc. About falling away. Also, I definitely don't believe Pentacostal stance about feeling the spirit and being baptized in the H. S. with evidence of talking in tongues. They had a woman Pastor speak once and she pushed talking in tongues and her prison ministry to women and men. I just don't feel that's my church home but reluctant to leave my husband worshipping with him. I have a hard time with all these terms used also...most of us just want to worship Jesus and have scriptures applied to our lives! I do believe in the rapture, millennial kingdom of Jesus, second coming as separate, and that you shouldn't try to limit God......
Come back home to the Catholic Church.
Actually, the Reformed tradition only kinda sorta believes in the cultural implications of OSAS. We do not affirm antinomianism/cheap grace. It's important to hold the idea that the truly saved Christian is the one who perseveres to the end (1 John 2:19), and is indeed saved by faith alone (Romans 3:28), but THAT saving faith will certainly result in works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
We can't limit God but he's limited us. And we need to spend more time thinking about his will for us than the unfathomable vastness of his being. It's not for us to know anyways but we can know him in the way in which he's designated our own being to know him apart from the beast and the angels.
Pietists were looking for more reality of the faith in their daily lives. Not all bad. People should read and study the Bible in their homes with friends and family.
Wow, this was awesome :) Thanks so much for explaining such great doctrines. The explanation of how egalitarianism lends itself to ultimate androgyny and disorder was eye-opening. I first heard of the Rapture from pre-mil folks and have never really sank my teeth into it -- I've always not liked the claimed exegesis behind the pre-mill thinking, so I'll have to look at your other videos regarding Post-mil theology. God bless! King's Hall podcast is also something I'll look up!
kings hall is based. thanks for having these guys. This podcast as well has been top on my feed as well.
Really appreciate that. Means a lot. Thanks!
It was only after the fall that God said men ruling over women would happen ( a consequence).
I would love to see Joel and Matt Slick discuss Amillenialism.
That would be great.
Amillenialism doesn't necessarily say that Christ's reign is ethereal or "impotent."
One of these guys sounds just like AD Robles. It's wild.
Great discussion. Many thanks
I'm young earth too. But where it says "be not ignorant of this fact, a day to God is as 1,000 years..." if God said it took him 1 day, isn't it possible if he created the world in 6,000 years, and rested for 1,000? Dosent that mirror 6,000 years of the world, and then the 1,000 yesr millennial reign of Christ for 1,000 years? It makes sense to me. 6k year creation, the last 1k years he rested. Then 6,000 years of troubled humanity, then jesus reigns and it's the rest
“Jesus, stop your weeping.” “Seriously…” “Don’t you know God is objectively in control?” Maybe I misunderstood you guys but this is what I hear. If I’m wrong I apologize but sometimes I think we don’t represent things holistically.
Don’t forget “personal relationship “
I don’t think complimentarianism was properly represented, but otherwise I found this episode super helpful and would love to hear more on these topics!
Agreed. It seemed to be passed off as a haphazard strawman equipped with egalitarian positions that in actually are pushed against by complimentarianism.
Eric did an episode "against complementarianism" on his podcast called The Hard Men podcast, he goes deeper into the matter x
@@thulisavaveki - thanks, I’ll try to find it… I guess my understanding is limited, because I thought it was a binary with complementarianism opposed to egalitarianism… so I don’t know what the “third way” is that they’re choosing since it sounds like they reject both complementarianism and egalitarianism…
Well said, men. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks brother.
This was great! I would definitely watch more of the similar kind. :)
Thanks!
@@RightResponseMinistries You’re welcome! Thank you for making the content. 🙏🏽
Lol of course you're here. This was FANTASTIC, right? I need this as a weekly segment. I've seen these guys on Twitter before but had no idea they did a pod. Definitely checking that out.
This is my kind of Calvinism. Dynamic, direct, and theologically rigorous. Love it it!
@@pleasedontman Rooooiiiii my brother! 😂 Great to see you again. Yah I hadn’t heard of these guys either. Did you find their pod on the YT? I don’t usually do podcast apps, besides Canon+.
@@jaquirox6579 😃 I just hit their website to give them some traffic and listened there. I don't use any pod apps either.
People have no idea how EXPLOSIVELY popular a muscular, reformed Christianity is going to be. Untangling all the poopy doctrine I've picked up through the years has been incredible and such a blessing. Happy you're so hip to good teaching!
Brian's Psalms albums are great. His version of Psalm 2 is a banger.
Agreed
I’m 23 min. in and already the over-riding theme (by at least 3 of the participants) is that Christianity’s “maturity” is “stunted” by anything that detracts the churches materialistic paradigm. The topic itself is very telling - “maturity” and “stunting” has everything to do with their very limited physical and material perceptions of the church of God. In that vain this critique will be said to be overly spiritualizing the subject and pious.
These guys are mirroring Elijah (1Kings 19:14-18), looking purely at the material, external working of the church and leaning wholly upon establishment Christian religious tradition. The “denying legacy” argument being one of the clearest examples of an extra-biblical religious authority that pre-conditions what structures and determines the validity of theological ideas. This is similar to the established extra-biblical, religious authority the Pharisees relied upon, that structured and determined that they needed to kill Jesus - to the glory and honor of God of course.
So I’d add another thing to the list that’s plaguing the church - Orthodox Christian materialism. Religious materialism takes it’s cues primarily from what can be seen, that like Elijah, wrestles w/ pride (self importance) and self-righteousness. The foundation of orthodoxed Christian materialism begins with an unhealthy romanticism of church history and the almost deification of it’s faulty documents - specifically in it errors regarding the authority of the temporal external church. The nucleus of orthodox Christian materialism is born out of a false paradigm around the authority of the temporal external church - it fosters unbelief and materialism primarily in that it obfuscates the distinctives between church membership w/ it’s ceremonies and true faith and salvation.
The primarily impetus behind the materialistic emphasis from the church in general is that, unlike Elijah, most within the church are simply unbelievers. The major argument, for example, of the post-mils is the materialistic emphasis that centers mans work/effort (the church) in the consummation of all things. The “hook” that’s suppose to be this great motivator, incentive to the Christian “engaging culture” is this idea of WORK the Christian (the church) must do to usher in the kingdom of God. And it’s in this context that we can see the genesis of the pride and disappointment of Elijah in 1 Kings 19:14 as he laments, “I - I have been very jealous for the Lord….I, I ONLY, am left…”. That’s the underlying spirit of this conversation 23 min. in. and if you’re not thus motivated it’s because you’re either gnostic or pious.
This is orthodox Christian materialism and it’s bad.
You couldn’t have said this better…
I wish someone would explain to me exactly what is the federal vision, how it differs from theonomy, and why many godly men I respect don't adhere to it.
I dont understand it well enough to explain it, but im pretty sure james white on alpha and omega, and doug wilson both have videos about it
The Federal Vision says that baptism is not only an entrance into the covenant community, the visible church, but a true saving union with Christ. This state of union is then dependent on a believer's continued faithfulness through good works throughout life, in order to be finally justified at death, so a true believer who had a true saving faith may fall away if he does not maintain faithfulness (FV advocates will confuse faithfulness with faith; they will speak of "faith alone", but their definition of "faith" includes works). This contrasts with classical Reformed soteriology, that acknowledges that justification is instantaneous and irrevocable at regeneration. A believer will necessarily consequently do good works in gratitude of his union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. These works will not be the ground of final justification at death, but vindicating evidence of a judgment of life on the basis of Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer.
There is so much that I i agree with here, even though i still am a pre-millenialist, and not hyper-Calvanistic. But I like to hear other people's view points and try to understand how they explain the questions that I would have regarding their views. I have to say, I have changed my views on more than a few things in my adult life because of this, but even though I've listened to several of your videos, I'm still far from convinced that we are in a post -mellinial world, even though I believe Christ is ruling and reigning all of creation today, the millenial reign has more to ti do with humanitie's geographical proximity to the throne of his sovereignty .
I have to point out the weakest argument you made for this- most real Christians would not consider "its the most moderate view" as any kind of argument for one side or the other. Real Christians could not care less about how "moderate" a view is, but only how true it is. Which I see you are that way, i just wanted to point out that in that area, your being inconsistent.
However, i have learned to hold my eschatological views more loosely, for prophecy is best understood in hindsight.
I agree with soooo much though - and appreciate these videos very much.
The lack of awareness of the Cosmosic covenant as the biophysical basis for biblical dominion based households.
It seems to me there is only one kingdom not multiple kingdoms.
1 Corinthians 15:24
[24]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 3 is a good one as well.
Only thing I strongly disagree with on here is the idea that dispy Premils are willing to fight for the kingdom. They’re actually very disconnected to that idea because their mentality is “everything is going to crap. We are going to lose anyway. I can’t wait to get raptured.”
I think he means those who hold to a historic premill position
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 I’d be glad if that were the case but he seemed to imply (or possibly explicitly say, I don’t remember, I’d have to watch the whole video again) dispy premils.
Well if you can read English, that is what the NT teaches. The world will slide deeper and deeper into its filth and depravity till Christ returns. Remember the 2 examples Christ Himself uses, that of Noah and Lot.
that's immature people, of which there are going to be in every category. JMac is an example of a mature premil person
@@cosmictreason2242 seems most dispy premils are immature then. Not saying every single one is like this, but I know plenty of dispies personally and they all have that mentality. And most of them are JMac-following, Calvinistic, progressive/“leaky” dispies.
Would be cool if you would go over 1 Corinthians 7.
God's word is not up for various interpretations. We don't have a variety of versions on other Bible doctrines. Proper exegesis is the laboring and digging into the word resulting in right doctrine. Having been premil for 30 yrs, then amil for 20 yrs in the reformed Calvinistic camp, then upon hearing the refuting of the false narratives of Mat 23-24, Mk 13, Lk 19, and Rev were all speaking to the 1st century church and the end of the old age or order of the Jews n temple worship. Upon careful and extensive research of these things I was convinced thru the merciful enlightenment of the HSpt that post mil is both optimistic n proper literal reading of the text. All 3 cannot all be right. Study well and long and voila the truth comes out that this world belongs to our God and he is redeeming all of it to his glory. We may have many yrs to go before all is reconciled but it will be done. Just as David conquered all the land of Israel, so the greater David will conquer all the earth, then return for a beautiful bride.
We got a lot of issues... but liberals, conservative, and authoritarians shut down discourse in the churches... and now you have an extremely polarized everything. The state of the union is a reflection of the state of the church.
On complementarianism:"When you create a theology because you want to soften the word of God or appease the culture... you've already lost. It may take 20 years to get the full fruit of it, but you've already lost the game." Great point. Next, let's review the Stone Choir podcast episode on Slavery & Scripture.
The root of "conservative" complementarianism is the same root of "conservative" anti-slavery theology. Both are theological appeasements to post-enlightenment egalitarian philosophy, the full fruit of which is "race and gender are social constructs" open-borderism, globohomoism, and mutilated trans kids. Everyone is liberated, and nobody has right to tell me what to do.
We know that Scripture nowhere condemns slavery, although it does heavily regulate it. But scripture only labels slavery itself a curse, as to Ham/Canaan/Egypt, or a blessing, as to Abraham/Job. The explicit commands in scripture regarding slavery do not condemn it. Because, how could they? We are slaves to Christ.
Even if we politically oppose slavery for other reasons, which is permissible, we cannot name the institution itself sin (beyond the sinfulness use of it), because slavery remains the universal state of man: we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God. Either way, we are not our own. We are owned.
By embracing anti-slavery theology, we end up inadvertently planting the seed of liberation from God's Lordship and ownership of us. "Jesus is my boyfriend," not my Lord, King, and Master.
But our bodies are not our own: We were bought with a price. If we condemn slavery entirely, then we will ultimately undermine Christianity itself, and we will marvel at how quickly our society devolves into unchecked slavery to sin under the guise of "liberation."
Was wondering, regarding the thought that Christ "reigns" in all believers as LORD and Saviour, could it here in Rev. 5:10 be speaking of that very fact that the people from every tribe tongue and nation that the LORD saves become that "kingdom" of which Christ is talking about from Mark 1:15??
Revelation 5:9-10 NASB95 - 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Mark 1:15 NASB95 - 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Not profitable and slanderous to the Amil view.
Start by rejecting the false gospel of Zionism. Jesus does and will. Luke 19:27.
great episode brother!
So in reaction to secular modernism we need right wing liberation theology? Constantine was the first Christian nationalist
It’s funny coming back to this, because it seems like we have Amills on our side and the (Dispy) Premills are attacking us. 😅
Man this is so good
How is Sauve so hard to pronounce? Is it just easy to me because I speak French?
I agree with the list but I'm left wondering if the robust Calvinist Reformed theology was so good why was it lost/forgotten or replaced by the ideas on the list? To say unbelief is probably true but not intellectually satisfying.
Any suggestions on finding a strong conservative Baptist church that doesn't suffer from those issues?
discerning christians, reformed wiki 2.0, G3, church and family life
all of these have church lookup features
Honest question relating to the video description: isn’t unbiblical the same as heretical? If not, what’s makes something unbiblical heresy? Ok, Joel provided an answer around 9:00 but I still don’t understand. If anything is unbiblical, it is wrong and therefore heretical. What am I missing?
In talking about complementarianism, you’re talking about hierarchy as if we don’t believe in hierarchy. What else do we call it if it isn’t complementarianism? We certainly don’t believe in egalitarianism. When I talk about complementarianism, I describe it exactly how the hierarchy system was described here. I don’t know the guys name that was talking about it. I’m just trying to understand what postmils call it if it’s not complementarianism.
I would guess the difference to be a matter of proximity to the gospel.
The closer the truth or error gets to affecting someone’s understanding of the gospel, the more vital (or, in the case of error, dangerous). Eschatology is not a salvation issue for example, and so there are several wrong choices in terms of them being false, but these wrong choices do not lead to hell.
Maybe that’s not what they intend, but that’s a possible difference between the two, whether the given doctrine distorts the gospel and injures its hearers.
If tribulation already happened, then who was The Antichrist. I am premillennial based on Jewish wedding.
Thanks for this great time with these post mil bros who expose the many deceptions that have crept into the church. Those unclear about postmil I challenge you to do thorough search in the word, all I know who do this find postmil is the proper exegesis of the word, following in the wake of great men like J Edwards, John Knox, BB Warfield and many many others like James White who did this and was convinced by the word that post mil is the best interpretation.
Amen.
I think you guys need to definitely read up on the issue of slavery. There never was any "race based slavery" as you said. If you want to be accurate in all things, then your ideas about slavery, when it happened, where, by whom etc are completely wrong. Please, please read up or watch some proper documentaries on the subject.
Love your work... just wondering where you got your "talent" figure, because I am a bit confused. Everything that I find on talents says that a talent was around 75 lbs, or 1,200 oz. We can use that to find out, in present monetary terms, how much the servants were entrusted with. Using the current spot price of silver, a talent is upwards of $26k USD today. If it was a talent of gold, then we're talking upwards of $2.2 mil USD. It's still a lot of money, so the point still stands. Dude was envious and bitter, or as Jesus says, "wicked and slothful".
You are correct. I simply forgot. I went back and checked it out. I think I said 2 billion, but I should have said 2 million. Thanks.
Pastor Joel,
Before I pick a bit at one thing you stated, want to first say I so enjoyed this discussion. It was edifying and had the courage to tackle the major issues amongst the brethren.
But I did take issue with your comment about believing in old earth creation as heretical. Perhaps the comment was in jest (I hope so). But if not it is quite cold to someone like myself who is an old earther. I actually think it gives God more glory and is more wondrous for God to take billions of years in His creation. Moreover, God gave us the gift of scientific discovery and it is outside His character to do something like “give the appearance of age”. If you have the opportunity I encourage you to read ‘Creation and Time’ by Dr Hugh Ross.
Think about just one thing. Did God really create all land animals, then create Adam and breathe life into him, have Adam name every animal, cause him to fall into a deep sleep, then create Eve from Adam all in one 24 hour period?
Please don’t misunderstand, I am NOT a theistic evolutionist by any means and hold to sound doctrine of man being made distinctly and separate in His image.
Thanks and God Bless!
Did God really create all land animals, then create Adam and breathe life into him, have Adam name every animal, cause him to fall into a deep sleep, then create Eve from Adam all in one 24 hour period?
I know right, he could have done it in way less time.
@@jordantheriverman6143 Perhaps you could offer a more credible response than a sarcastic one-liner. As a Christian I believe all things are possible with God, and if He did create the universe in six literal 24 hour periods, it does not threaten my beliefs and I gladly accept that and offer praise in response. Simply stating it seems inconsistent with what God has revealed in His character to do so, at least from my reading Scripture.
Please don’t be like the premils who are dogmatic and become insulting and refute with “heretic” at an orthodox view that may counter their own.
@@robertdagit4315 You need to spend a few hundred hours on Answers in Genesis until you repent of old earth. Your argument that it 'gives God more glory' is sentimental and moot, because God says he didn't create that way. Stop listening to Ross. If you don't believe in evolution, then there's no reason to believe in deep time either. All the rock layers are from the flood. There's plenty of time to name a few hundred kinds of animals in a morning. This can't seriously be your objection. That makes it look like you haven't really looked into this stuff. You can find the entirety of the Answers Books 1-4 on the website, a chapter per article, for free. Read it all.
@@cosmictreason2242 Appreciate your response, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I won’t repenting for something that is not a sin, however. The proclamation that I need to repent is akin to premils telling me I need to repent of being postmil. It is a secondary issue at best and not a salvational question.
@@robertdagit4315 it’s a salvation issue for the next generation who is taught not to trust the Bible. And it’s a matter of sanctification and the church’s witness. So it’s not irrelevant. I really hope you do go read the books. Totally free
How is it that a podcast called right response ministries consistently gives the wrong response?
I think a John MacArthur Premil Dispensationalist has much more in common with a Doug Wilson Post-mil, than a Gospel Coalition Amil.
Ok. What does patriarchy say then about Christian women interacting with the culture? Are we to submit to men in general - regardless of whether they are in a position of specific authority to us? I would describe myself as a hard complimentarian, but I do not apply the same submission to general men that I do to my husband, my pastor or the elders in my church. I would submit to men in authority at work, same as I would to anyone in authority. I have taught science college classes to adults when I was a working adult. Was I not supposed to have authority over my adult male students?
These are good questions, and I wonder that too. I believe e.g. that in NT times female upperclass women could give orders to male servants without that anybody would raise an eyebrow.
@@timoheule yes. I also wonder what single women should do. This is moot point for me at this time - I’m at home with kids and don’t have authority coming up around strange men - but we can’t assume women are always married in the home. Paul seemed to encourage women to remain single so they could work for the Lord in 1 Cor 7, so obviously there is supposed to be a way for women without husbands to exist in the world.
" I do not apply the same submission to general men that I do to my husband"
How do you know? Youngsters can say they are being sexually pure because they're not sleeping together but they're cuddling, sneaking off and spending time alone, knitting their hearts together with romantic platitudes - would you affirm their self-assessment? My position is that you are doing something wrong whether or not you can see something which you would consider a negative consequence occurring. Why is it a problem? Well, why would it be a good thing for a woman to know that she has more freedom and authority in the civic sphere than in church or family? Would that not make her feel that God is holding out on her and that her husband is restricting her, provoking bitterness? Further, how can she submit to her husband if her boss says 'you need to work overtime tomorrow' but husband says we need to leave for vacation tomorrow. The reason why being under submission to another man is wrong is that your loyalty is divided (which is what the Bible really means when it talks about impurity, to be impure is to be 'mixed,' to have competing loyalties and affections). And the reason why being in authority is wrong is that it too tempts you to reject submission, besides being a poor example, AND the fact that you are taking the job from a man who would do it better (not that your immediate replacement would be that man).
@@cosmictreason2242 I do understand your points - and it is a major reason why I am at home with the kids, there were conflicts in loyalty - but this still doesn’t answer what women are supposed to DO about this. Single women do not have husbands to go off and work to support them, and depending on the field you are called to mentor new recruits. There are not really exclusively female jobs either nowadays, because of the feminization of men, as a Christian woman working in the world you would be frequently called on to train male recruits. I even went and taught at an ‘all female’ college and a significant fraction of my students were biological men who thought they were women. Saying we are taking jobs away from men is not helpful when men are taking away our female positions now claiming they are women. When the world is crazy we can at least acknowledge it is difficult to navigate.
Second. You are speaking assuming that you are talking to women raised in the church. I didn’t come to Christ until my mid-twenties - after being raised in a feminist household and encouraged to get a PhD. Women are going to be called to Christ who have been immersed in this world, and we need to have a gentle way of telling them how to live rather than telling them that they are stealing jobs from better qualified men. That is not loving, nor honestly helpful. It just encourages women toward pride - ‘I had the highest scores in my class, I had better class data than any man in my department, blah blah blah’ - to compete with these men. Women are in the home not because we are stupid or ill qualified technically to do many jobs, but because God TOLD us to be there. If you start citing differences in intelligence bright women will just think they are the exceptions then. There are a lot of very smart women who are no doubt great at their jobs - and better than many men - but God calls us to do something different. Not because we are dumb, but because we are a different creation. Citing differences in qualifications is an atheist materialistic argument that can be overturned by a sufficiently strong or clever woman who can reach the ‘average male standard’. God’s command though is regardless of qualifications to SUBMIT to your created role.
@@katherinelipari6610
So many women in the workplace goes hard against Sound Doctrine (Titus 2:4). It has never been God's will at all. It has created all kinds of useless troubles and stress within the marriage unit. It has stolen from men their role of providers to the weaker (wives and children)and it has torn married women between the obedience and loyalty to their husbands and to random strangers in the workplace. This is deep treachery from women. Women are traitorous .
It is sign of a deep rebellion against God . Any country that encourages that shows who it really serves.
It has also cause prices to skyrocket especially in the field of real estate.
Is has brought nothing good at all.
Who can serve two masters ? Christ said no one can but women would be the exception ??
The truth is , as Cosmic Treason said , women now are more obedient and loyal to strangers than to their husbands and you wonder why marriage is in such a state ?
You think we can mock and fool the Lord that way without reaping any bad consequence ?
How come the modern church does not expose that ? Is she in bed with that wicked West and women's betrayal ?
Where are the aged women who have the duty to teach that to the younger ones ?
Shame on us for not fighting satanic feminism !
Putting people that DONT believe in 5 point calvinism into an "aposate" box is ungodly
Maybe I missed it. Where did they claim non-clavinists are apostates?
Joel is a calvinist?
@@ttownsupreme2183 yes he is
I think you misheard. What they said was non 5 point calvinists are just arminians. And that a lot from the young restless and reformed movement went apostate. You seem to be hearing what you want to hear instead of what they said
@@repentorperish1386 Proof?
I wonder if it's wise to call Woke a religion in the public political square. I'm sure DC would be more than happy to codify freedom of religion for it.
Hahaha. Very true.
It is, because it's against the constitution to make laws respecting an establishment of religion, and they are establishing a state religion
Not trying to be a jerk here, but you guys seem to have too many overly simplistic analyses of things like R2K, Dispensationalism, complementarianism, etc. For example, one could make the case that the seeds of Dispensationalism began with the division (discontinuities) that the Westminster divines codified in the WCF between the so-called covenant of works, and the covenant of grace. Or put another way, between the pre-lapsarian covenant of meritorious works and the post-lapsarian covenant of unmerited favor. The divines posited strict discontinuities between God’s covenantal interactions before the fall from His covenantal interactions after the fall. And so the WCF planted the seeds for later Dispensational discontinuities that they see all throughout redemptive history.
The Yuppie squad at work.
Hahaha! Each of our vehicles is more than 15 years old.
Can you do something on the federal vision for clarity, thanks.
I could try. But I would go straight to the source. Doug has addressed it clearly and highlighted what was wrong.
the sweatervest dialogue he did with James White features him repudiating specific errors of FV to make it clear what he believed and currently believes.
Yall need some historical theology training because any perspectives that are this new within the church are deserving of intense scrutiny.
(Note: didnt say they are heretical or wrong, just that they need to be examined due to their seeming non-conformity to historical christian thought)
Agree on dispensational premillennialism (1830s), but the majority of the positions you hold only date back to the 20th century at best.
By examining scripture within its historical context and exploring historical theology, you might find it odd that most of your beliefs are not akin to the beilefs of the reformers or the early church.
P.S. theonomy logically necesitates a belief that sin is not part of human nature. Even when God was present in the Hebrew temple theonomy fell apart because of human nature (see judges, 1st and 2nd kings, ect.) Theonomy will never work without the complete and total remaking of heaven and earth to remove sin from the equation.
Are you aware of Russel Moore and his movement to bring reprobates into the SB church? He certainly has scripture to back this up, too.
Their arguments are so close. I wonder when these men would consider adding supersessionism to that list.
Can you recommendations any books on marriage? Thanks
Reformed Marriage by Doug Wilson.
I was expecting pietism, narcissism, Arminianism, revivalism, and liberalism…
If Amillennialism spiritualizes (makes amorphous) Christ's rule, kingdom, etc., then how do you explain the many hard-core "Covenanters" out there who are Amillennialists? I mean, this presentation puts forth a caricature of Amillennialism, one as an Amillennialist I don't recognize. You seem to be describing a flavor of Amillennialism popular among liberal or progressive theologians, not an Amillennialism held by actual Jesus loving, Bible Believing, Covenenter Christians. Covenanter-Amillennialists would agree with Christ's actual rule over the nations (Psalm 2, Col. 1:16, etc.), the idea that all nations should pattern their laws on the Law of God (Moses-Christ), that Biblical law interprets Natural Law and both are God's Law mankind is to obey; that there are three spheres of Christ's rule (Civil, Church, Family), etc., etc., etc. A good place to find these Amillennialists is in the RPCNA, for example, a denomination that has a good number of both Amillennialist and Post-Millennialist among its Teaching and Ruling Elders, FWIW. You might want to re-calculate your conclusions about Amillennialism. Just sayin'
Confessional Lutherans only teach one view - Amillennialism. Amillennialism, is certainly not another form of “pietism”. Most of American Protestantism is premillennial gnostic pietism. Pietism is bad, piety good. Confessional Lutherans certainly do not spiritualize Amillennialism.
@@P-el4zd question - Do you see me as a “Confessional Lutheran”? If so, I would set the record straight, I am a “Covenanter”. Apologize if I caused some misunderstanding. Covenanters are Confessional Presbyterians (not all Confessional P’s are Covenanters, but all Covenanters are Confessional P’s), for the most part. Historically, Covenanters are Post-Mill. I am an odd one out in that I am an optimistic Amill. Yes, I take my share of good natured teasing about that from my family, so I am comfortable with other views (Except Dispensationalism, a heresy.
True. I would say that Amil and Postmil are very similar. Except that one is more optimistic about the direction of society. And one is more pessimistic about the direction of society.
It’s all about the gospel or it’s just noise, a dispensationalist will preach the cross for salvation, you can argue doctrine and timelines but it is the souls that matter.
The whole conversation is in "isms" not rooted and grounded in scripture.
Not teaching just stroking their own ego. Take a stand based on the scripture and your doctrine.
2Ti 3:1-7 KJV 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jesus is Lord of all, despite one being Lordship salvationist or not being Lordship salvationist.
Just wow, mocking amils who are proclaiming the true gospel of Christ. Its one thing to say you couldn't partner in ministry with them, another to seem to indicate that the are a danger to the kingdom of Christ.
Thanks guys. Good conversation