The “Adoption Tweet” Heard Round The World w Eric Conn
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- In this episode of Theology Applied, Eric Conn joins the show to explain his views on adoption and what many Evangelicals overlook.
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Thank you, Pastor Webbon, for preaching against the atrocities associated with IVF. This is a major source of sin in our Christian churches and needs to be addressed.
I have two adopted kids. One thing that many many families and churches don’t realize is the type of support you need when you are adopting. Especially so when adopting older kids into an already established family. If a family feels the burden and desire to adopt they should really make sure their church community will be there to help support them when needed to be able to do so successfully.
Such a good conversation! Thank you both for sharing your wisdom and experiences.
I’ve known many families who’ve adopted children from Eastern Europe and the vast majority of them became train wrecks.
Such an encouraging word from a Christian. Well done. 🙄🙄🙄
So I guess it’s better to let a child from Eastern Europe just languish “over there”…as long as it doesn’t mess up your perfect American life.
And yes, I’ve adopted from Eastern Europe and the US.
Yep, I have known lots of kids who were adopted from eastern Europe who themselves became a train Rix. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that is the best way to describe what happened to them. The loss of culture, identity, language etc is no good at all. It creates lasting scars and a lot of damage in the psyche. It is wrong to take someone from their native heritage and dump them into an alien one and an alien world and expect that it is going to work. It just doesn't work out like that. And I am treated as a kin to heretic by expressing these views. I often get told that because the adopters "loved" their adopted children, then that makes it all okay. Yes love is powerful and all that, but love alone does not give a child back they're disrupted and broken heritage or identity. Love does not give an eastern European child back their language once it has been lost because they were adopted into the West. I also hear constantly that the damage to the psyche of these adoptees is because of what happened to them prior to their adoption. There could be some truth in that, but nobody wants to talk about the Odette the damage that the adoption itself actually does when they are ripped away from not only everything familiar, but their culture, language and identity etc. Nobody talks about this, and raising this makes you akin to a heretic or something like that. It also gets you called things like "heartless", "unloving", and "someone who doesn't know what they are talking about". So I'm glad that you have said this. I think that these situations are train wrecks on both sides… For the adopter and the adoptee alike. Into country adoption is a bad idea, and I won't buy it from anyone that adopting a baby is any easier. People should be left in their own societies, and if someone feels the burden to help an orphan somewhere else in the world, then they should help that often to stay in their own culture. It's better that way.
@@milanka882 I know Christian children who’ve become train wrecks. I know you do too. A Pastor’s kid who died of fentanyl overdose in college. Elder’s child who is a “trans” activist. The difficulty of raising children shouldn’t stop Christians from having children; the difficulty of raising children from other cultures shouldn’t be a determinative factor for Christians who are called to adopt.
That’s not saying difficulty is no factor. Your average family interested in adoption probably shouldn’t adopt a 9 year old from Somalia. But it’s not determinative. My adopted sibling were so young it was like bringing a baby home from the hospital. My friend Mike was adopted as a 6 year old from the Philippines, and he had a rebellious phase but is now a God fearing man despite learning a new language and suffering abuse in early childhood. God can do great things in and through both good and bad situations.
I approached my Church years ago about establishing a support system so some of us could adopt and mentor children. They weren’t interested in it. One particular family does foster many kids, but all are disconnected from the church because the family doesn’t accept help or feel the need for a “church family”.😢
I know people close to me who have done that:
Forsaking having their own children to adopt children.
Wouldn't be my first choice, mind you, but why would that be a problem for other couples?
@@winsomepickett7694because the Bible's command is "be fruitful and multiply"
Yes -- I am well familiar with that verse. However, I fail to see how that is to be applied to all people for all time, given that both times God issued that command he was speaking, personally, with the only people alive on the face of the earth. And as far as the "fill the earth" part of the command, how would we know when that goal has been accomplished? @@elijahmthompson2313
@@elijahmthompson2313In biblical morality, children are to be born in marriage. Considering Paul's negative statements on being married, I don't think we can say that "be fruitful and multiply" is a command for every individual Christian.
@@dwanareese1774 obviously
In many cases I fear adoption has simply become an en vogue virtue signal. Guilting people into it as "a gospel issue" is atrocious. Adoption can be a beautiful thing when done right, with Christian parents, but still can be very challenging. Good episode so far gentlemen.
Even more than that, when you, already a father of precious children, ponder the natural causes by which other children become "adoptable", you realize that, after about the age of three, it is not just very difficult but nigh on impossible to bring them neatly into your foreign context. So the virtue you are signaling is actually the relative suffering of your own little ones.
Challenging??🤔 I dont understand. My mother and Aunt were both adopted... no challenges whatsoever. Hmmm
@@HeidisHereAndThere in the contemporary context there are more challenges than ever before. From the overall process to the courts, it is extremely taxing and expensive. Not to mention if you are interested in Native American adoptions, the legal hurdles are insurmountable for certain ethnicities due to institutional racism against anyone not Native American. This isn’t even addressing the cultural challenges of our day which makes it extremely difficult to raise well adjusted biological children. So yes, challenging is a good word for it. comparing any contemporary metric to 50+ years ago is just not reasonable. This is based off of firsthand knowledge.
@@HusGoose Firsthand knowledge of what? Raising a well-adjusted child today and raising a well-adjusted child 50+ years ago??
@@aallen5256 First hand knowledge of the current processes and struggles vs. the lack of roadblocks, more functional authorities, and overall healthier culture/subcultures of decades past.
I am NOT kidding when I say that God uses Joel to keep me sane.
Ditto
Ditto ditto.
Four minutes in, and I already see the value in this conversation.
I remember seeing people with the bumper sticker of whatever African country they were planning on adopting from, even seminars given on how to adopt kids from Africa. This was among SBC culture.
This is so refreshing to hear an honest critique of adoption… In particular, into country adoption. Personally, I am dead against into country adoption. I believe that we are supposed to take care of our own first and foremost… Charity begins at home. Yes, we are supposed to look after the orphan… Among us! And everywhere, I see unborn babies being killed, I see welfare policies that encourage women to have babies out of wedlock and keep them, and I see these sorts of policies that make it more difficult for couples to adopt a child domestically. And therefore, they are forced to go and take children from other countries into our societies that quite honestly have no business being there. I don't think this is good either for our society or for the source societies that these adoptees come from. I hear the constant argument that they are "loved" when they get here, yet in western countries, our own foster and adoption system is so messed up and so dysfunctional that nobody is doing anything about it. Yet we are constantly bringing children from other countries into our own country without fixing our own problems for our own orphans. I also don't buy the fact that "love" is all that is needed to help these children who have been adopted. Taking a child from their own culture, language group, and all the rest of it and essentially dumping them into an alien one and expecting that everybody involved is going to hold hands and sing the Kumbaya is unrealistic at best. A lot of these kids grow up with serious identity and mental health problems, and the adoption establishment, including shells who were former adoptees themselves who shelf said establishment, like to tell you that it is because of the adoption and their pre-adoption history. I beg to differ, I don't think that this kind of adoption is helpful to a child's development at all. It also I believe gives the source societies of these adoptees the idea and the notion that Western society and western Christendom is there to babysit them and to take responsibility for children that they themselves should be taking responsibility for. And the irony is that the $24 billion adoption industry you were referencing is predominantly run by the evangelical Christian church. It's disgusting. I wish that to the church would put those resources they are using to fund this industry into actually helping children in our own backyard who need help instead of funding this international… I would rather think of as legal human trafficking or legal child trafficking. As you can tell, I am very much down on intercountry adoption and I believe it should be stopped. Yet to say this sort of thing and to express the views I have expressed in Christian circles is akin to heresy these days. So thank you for this discussion, it is so refreshing to hear people talking about this issue in a more critical and realistic way. And I just wanted to finish to say that I am all for godly adoptions, and I think that they can really be a beautiful outworking of the gospel. But I do believe as well that godly adoptions should first and foremost be domestic. That is… Adopting a child from within your own country and your own societal pool rather than going to another country or another society and adopting a children that are not your responsibility to adopt, and therefore teaching that society that they don't have to take responsibility for their children because along comes the Western at Church who was ready to babysit. So yes, thank you for this program again once more.
The problem: Application of the Scriptures is left up to everyone's individual interpretation and you dare not infringe upon that.
The tweet was crazy. Why add the "Loving your own is natural, not sin." The tweet was fine up until that point. Then, that comment reframed the entire rest of the tweet to bending toward nativist sentiment. It's not even relevant to the point he was trying to make.
You're totally right about the rejection of nature. It seems like a kind of virtue play: Since the spiritual is superior to the natural, I will reject everything natural and be a free floating fog. This leads to people seriously questioning why a man should be physically strong, why a people should seek to preserve itself, why : _"have you got a verse for that?"_ Like dude, stop being a dolt. Self harmful adoption (blessing the offspring of a wicked man whilst withholding it from your own children to whom you are actually proximately morally indebted) is just another manifestation.
To be honest, the retrieval of the old Reformed (really, just Christian) treatment of nature was the best thing I personally took from Wolfes book.
Wow. Sad post.
Ugh. Hate being viewer # 666 but wasnt going to miss this one!! Loved Pastor Joel's 1st 3 questions! 😂
Nothing evil about 666. It’s just NERO in Hebrew.
I have an "adopted" son. Both his parents are dead. We met at work 10 years ago. We formed a bond and now I'm his mom and he's my son. Through him I have 5 awesome grandkids. Family isn't always about blood. It's about connecting, and it's about love. Christians, of all people, should understand that.
I agree with you. I think the critique is that people are purposefully adopting rather than having their own children. But I think for me, my critique of this whole adoption thing is the fact that people are going to other countries and adopting children they have no business adopting. And I don't think this is good for anyone… Including the source of societies of the adopted children. It sent a message to them that the western church will always babysit them, and tells them that they don't have to take responsibility for their own children because somebody else will swoop in and adopt them. But I am all for domestic adoption and, like Joel said, it can be a beautiful thing when done in a proper ungodly way. But I do not see anything godly whatsoever about intercountry adoption. I've just seen too much damage goods because of it… From the adopted families side as well as the adoptees themselves. But nobody talks about that, because that is somehow heretical in these times.
@@milanka882 So it's better for a child to have no parents at all than parents from another country? Got it.
I need prayer being harassed by the court in NH! Please pray they drop the case they have prolonged it since 2021. Trying to make me look crazy .I am aware of the game and narrative ..with outright slander of my person...my name
Will pray w/&4u courts are I hate &Don't trust them. So GOD ON your side Isa Must. Mercy be yours @these times
I tell young Christian couples that they are obligated to have children but I don't say how many--even though I would prefer it be "lots." However, to take back the culture I tell them that they should have at least one more child than they think they can handle.
Based
Thank you for doing that. My nephew just got married and I was saying to them "be fruitful and multiply" in my congratulations and so many people were saying I was out of line for that.
@@sandrajohnson9090 you are absolutely correct in your desire to see them have children.
@@Ransetsu Otherwise they shouldn't' be allowed to vote, right? No votes for the unmarried, for the infertile, or the childless, right??
Just wondering how you navigate this with an infertile couple? Do you pull them aside and ask before you tell them to have lots of children, if they are even able to have kids? Just wondering?
Glad this was cleared up. I found a the tweet a little confusing. As usual Eric is right and TGC culture shows itself to be gay
I am adopted, i was adopted literally within hours of my birth, and this is correct. Healthy people should have their own kids. You are not obligated to adopt, especially outside your cultural group. If you're biologically incapable, like my parents, then go for it
I want to see the show on the 19th Amendment now...
Eric Conn was not only concise in his original tweet, he was more than clear in this episode. I, for one, was glad he brought up the adoption issue. The knee jerk reactions from certain people were eyeopening. The idolatry of adopting from a 3rd world while ignoring the fatherless in your own community is just abhorrent. These are people who strain the gnat and swallow the camel.
Not very loving to your neighbor now is it?
Amen, amen, and amen! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 this is what I have been saying. I also don't think it is helping either the adopted children from the global South all those societies they come from. It sends a message to those societies that they don't have to take responsibility for their own children or care for their own children, because some do-gooder Western "Christian" is going to come in and swoop in and adopt their children and take care of their children for them. It's disrupts the healthy development of identity in the adopted children. Taking a child, no matter how old or young, from their native culture, language and heritage and putting them into a completely different alien one does not bode well. You are going to end up with an adult that has a dysfunctional self identity, and is unable to find their place in the world. I am tired of "Christians" saying that these things don't matter, and all that matters is your identity and Christ and all that. These are all Christians who have never been forcefully removed from their culture, language etc as a child and sent to live in an alien culture with adopted "parents". It leads to a lot of dysfunction in these kids psyches when they grow up, and, like I said, an inability to find their place in the world or to be able to connect with themselves or others because of their lack of identity or the fact that their development of their identity has been disrupted through the adoption. So thank you so much for saying this. This craze of intercountry adoption is not loving on any side and which ever way you slice it. It's not loving to the adopted child, it's not loving to their native society, and it's not loving to our society or our children who are denied the care that they deserve. At the end of the day, it is a $24 billion industry that feeds not only on the guilt of prospective doctors, but it also feeds on emotionally manipulating people into adopting these children against perhaps their better judgement and against the best interest of both adopt her and adopt a light, and into believing that they are doing a good thing. So yes, all that novel to say I totally agree with you and I'm so glad that somebody has finally said it.
@@milanka882 Well, you said it better than me. I totally agree. Identity to a people is part of God's perfect creation. If every tribe, nation, and tongue stands before Him then that means they keep their identity even in His presence. There is nothing wrong with that and I'm tired of the perversion that comes from well meaning Christians who want to either be stripped of the identity or are happy to do it to others.
@@milanka882 Yes, they will form a much better identity growing up in their group home with no parents all while being sexually abused (yes, that is the case for 90% of kids in these situations). A definite recipe for success.
@@sandrajohnson9090 Bro... these kids have no parents. Keeping their language trumps finding loving parents? Is that really your position?
I am adopted and I have an adopted daughter in law to be (I love) a sis in law I got to know this year helping my brother to his death, I go in the jail for Jesus with an adopted friend who was parole officer years!!...and other adopted friends in ministry!!!!! I'm studying up on adoption in Bible lately.....very interesting......I was scapegoated by while family in divorce and I think that's normal in our dysfunctional world. I'm grateful in our baby killing world that whoever my mom is, that she was brave enough to have me and sacrifice me. God has used all my hurt and bad choices amazingly now.....
Let's be honest, we are talking indirectly about race.
You always are, not usually indirectly!
@@aallen5256You again.
@@dwanareese1774 me what?
Joel…are you proud of the route these comments have taken? Bashing adoption?
No it’s not mandated, but it is a duty to help orphans and widows.
James 1:27 states, but Additionally, Psalm 68:5-6 says, "A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling. God sets the lonely in families." These verses, among others, emphasize the value of providing love, care, and support to those in need, which can be applied to the act of adoption.
We have a moral obligation to be selfless and Divine obligation to obey God. You can be fruitful and multiply through adoption as well as natural birth.
Yes we are to look after the orphan… Among us. Charity begins at home, and adoptions… If they are godly… Should first and foremost be domestic. You should be adopting children from within your own society. Because charity begins at home. Other societies in other countries should be responsible for their own children. We may not necessarily like the way that they deal with their own children and they orphans, but it is none of our business. But how we take care of the orphans among us in and our own society is our business.
@@milanka882 I don't disagree with you that we should adopt from home first. That's fine. But you guys always take this to some crazy extreme... "We may not necessarily like the way that they with their children and their orphans, but it is none of our business." Just let injustice happen and I'll look the other way. Ok captain non-interventionist libertarian. Have you read the parable of the good samaritan recently? Just curious.
Not able to vote
Well, I mean, you are a woman, after all. So I'm not quite sure what you were expecting. ;)
All these comments from people who have never adopted. Give me a break. Reminds me of atheists telling me “what the Bible says”.
Yeah, the rowdy reformed crowd could just be more clear on the front end and these controversies could be avoided. 140 characters is more than enough to be clear on most of these. I've followed Eric and Joel, and this tweet just wasn't clear and kind of deserve some backlash.
Saying something controversial and unclear, then acting shocked and offended when people interpret what you say at face value is a game for children.
Lots of people were able to read it clearly. Quit blaming them because to failed to do so.
I read it, and while strongly suspecting Eric had a more nuanced point he was trying to make, thought it was unclear and misleading.
I don't think it's unfair to expect more out of ministers.@@sandrajohnson9090
Hello
If you must adopt, adopt from your own race, and your own culture. Otherwise you will be doing both yourself and the child a great disservice. It’s not that it’s impossible, immoral, or dishonorable to do otherwise. It’s just way, way, way more difficult. As long as there are members of your own society in need of parentage, there is no need to go looking across borders.
Yet another expert…never adopted, yet telling the rest of us what to do. Bravo
Thank you and amen! Somebody else who is talking sense on this issue. I couldn't agree with you more. And thank you for bringing up the damage that this intercountry adoption nonsense does to the adoptees themselves.
@@Splinter.S One does not have to participate in a system to observe the glaring and inherent flaws within that system.
Sounds like we need a healthy helping of Ecclesiastes, the book
I have really appreciated learning about the abolitionist reasoning/movement these past few years. I will say though, that the snowflake adoption seems so odd. To make it happen, is certainly NOT by natural means. Also, I'm ignorant of all the aspects of it, but doesn't it require an outside party to transfer the embryo? That seems antithetical to the abolitionist position that marital relations should only include husband & wife (& God witnessed). Another reason it seems weird to me: I understand it is an embryo that the surrogate mother has implanted, but if it is from a sibling, it seems kind of incestuous. If I were to adopt a niece or nephew that is already born, they would not require being incubated by my body. It just seems like some boundary is crossed with snowflake adoption.
Most of the comments knocking adoption are from a place a guilt…..you know you should but you’re looking for a reason not to adopt…so you find 1 guy saying you shouldn’t and you cling to it with all your might to ease your conscience. Sad really. Not surprised though, for Americans, it’s all about “me” and what makes my life easy.
Thanks guys. Maybe you could do a show on those who come from unbelieving families who are many times hostile to their faith and how to obediently care for them Scripturally
I'd be happy to adopt Eric so I can show him how to better obey the 5th Commandment when you've got a bad Papa.