You know what, no more controllers. From now on players will just let the melee intro play on loop and just bare knuckle box until someone gets knocked out.
The complaint i'm hearing 'it costs money so it's sus' as a brand new player to melee, you have to get a controller either way, and it's not like legit gamecube controllers are cheap, and it's not like a shitty used gamecube controller from ebay is fair when pro players are buying brand new or modded controllers. At that point, I think the argument for accessibility has tooth, and it reasonable to start the conversation at 'what kinds of controllers alternative to a pure gamecube controller will be acceptable?'
Well it’s also accessibility on the modders end. While there definitely is more than before there still isn’t that many modders, especially with ones who have their hands on goomwaves and phobs and z jump and all these crazy trigger mods. It’s hard to find a respectable modder (some modders and controller people say there’s only 4 of them) to go though because their controllers sell out instantly, so the only way to get one would be lan where you can actually test them out. Edit: just wanna give a little example. Leffen (who yes is often a complainer and does have super high controller standards) said like 3/4 of his phobs were broken and didn’t work properly, making him waste thousands. A modder pointed out that he should have went to one of the more respectable modders instead, however it does show the quality outside of the respectable modders isn’t always the best
I've been a arcade player since the 90's, and we had to deal with these "alternative" controller like Hitbox/Leverless a decade before the smash community. It even took us some time to accept Pad as a viable controller, with much complaining about some advantages it has over arcade sticks. As someone how doesn't play competitive smash and likes to casually play Gamecube, I understand the expensive cost of getting a good condition GC controller. That's not considering winning the "lottery" of getting a competitive viable "defective" GC controller that I understand Smash pro need to do specific tech. The accessibility to play at those standards are so high, much higher than any competitive game, that it's laughable the old heads calling the alternatives "P2W" lol. Eventually, all available GC controller will be exhausted even at insane prices, and anyone wanting to play Smash will have to ether get a Boxx, custom, or a specialized 3party controller with it's own quality of life improvements. The smash community will a some point forced to move beyond the OG GC controllers.
@@digitaljin8362that’s kinda my perspective. it doesn’t have to be “cheating” if the community embraced it and proved there was a market for the controller beyond the high level / wealthy players seems like melee as a community should be grateful there is still a competitive community at all
Just wanted to mention that I managed to run into Lucky at a brewery somewhere in Anaheim like 7 years ago. All around awesome person, even let me buy him a pint for a picture- he was very much happy to do that! But too bad I lost the photo now. I wonder if he still has that nice melee-themed Gorillaz album shirt. Good times.
I saw Hungrybox at a grocery store in Florida yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and popped off at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by resting really loudly.
The pros have had access to controllers that gave them an advantage for years. Most people struggle to find a working GameCube controller at all. For a while if your controller broke you had to either fix it yourself or know a guy. Same with notches, etc. The box and goomwaves are all just a natural progression of that.
@@sterlifyy That’s literally the nature of technology. But I’d argue that it’s been fairly gradual anyway. People have been software/hardware modding controllers for years. The stiffer the competition becomes the more people will try to squeeze out of their tools to gain an advantage. It’ll keep going that way until we set a hard boundary where beyond that line is considered “cheating”.
This is true as fuck I remember having to fuck with my own controller for a couple weeks one time and now one of weekly players just became one of the best controller modders in the world so everyone in our region just all has nutty controllers
People think this controller issue arose from people wanted an advantage. It came from people who were sick of looking for that controller which was "just right" or people who had LITERALLY HAND INJURIES FROM PLAYING. Does no one remember M2K from a decade ago coming to tournament with like 7+ gamecube controllers?
You can't really say it's one or the other. It's always been both, although it was probably worse back in the day. Hitbox was one of the earliest options, and immediately branded as "cheatbox" in the scene. Early adopters in particular, weren't people lacking controllers, but more often specifically people looking for the advantage they were hearing about. Melee was like the most anti box community I knew at the time, but has constantly become more and more open to them, as getting a proper gamecube controller keeps getting harder.
nah it's just Americans blaming everything they can except themselves. Nintendo, God, the controller, the TV, Jigglypuff, anything but taking responsibility.
Next you people are going to be telling us you should be able to program macros because 'wave dash combos are too hard without it! I will hurt my soft widdle handies!"
@@shoopoop21 macros is pretty far off from ergonomics. The gc controller was designed as a good all around controller with great longevity, it was not created with anything close to the way melee is being played in mind. Imagine someone using like a PlayStation controller to play a traditional fighting game for a long time, damaging their hand in the process, and accusing people who use pads or boxes of cheating. Is not destroying your hands technically an advantage? Yes, but that's a srawman as far as I'm concerned. The question is is it an UNFAIR advantage. As people have pointed out, customized game cube controllers are often times more expensive than boxes/pads anyway, so this whole "its pay to win" thing is nonsense, they aren't that expensive and when you take into account the medical bills you'll have to pay to have your arthritis/carpel tunnel treated from playing with a GameCube controller the price of a more ergonomic controller is hardly an issue.
I'm a boomer who likes OEM-only, but if I had to pick a solution, I would go with software mods (aka button remapping, like in 1.03). Gives access to everybody equally
@@tsrenis Unfortunately, any large scale tournaments wanting to stream the game will have to comply. Ether risking getting a letter from Nintendo Legal or not stream at all, which would lead to lack of exposer, decrease of interest, pulling in new talent, and decrease in prize pool.
The really messed up part is that Nintendo will not allow the mods in tournaments that would make this accessible to everyone, so it's actually just Nintendo's fault.
@@OrchidEleven stealth UCF (universal controller fix, a software mod) has been used at major tournaments for ages. probably since around 2016 or 17? the changes are subtle enough (fixing shield drop, snapback, etc) that you literally can't tell just from gameplay that anything fishy is going on.
@@Atr0 how do they patch that in? memory card? I remember when 20xx was supposed to solve any hardware problems with controllers like that's hax$s whole thing I think. I don't think all tournaments use that but I might be wrong cos to me the scene got so messy the last few years and it became too hectic
just dont bring it up in convo that the game is modded, literally no proof to find out on nintendos end, they wont do anything. ur just using big N as a scapegoat for the community being an L in this situation.
@@rockzyk1291 You missed the point, roids are banned by the league, controllers are not. Controllers are not cheating as cheating means breaking rules. Controllers are perfectly legal in tournaments and thus he is not breaking rules. Lucky is not cheating, but is saying that it should be banned even though he does it.
Another thing to remember with z jump is that a mouseclick z is MUCH better for endurance. The normal z or tactile z replacements take 8 million times more force to actuate.
Hax goes way too overboard with some of the changes and seems to have nobody keeping him in check. Idk about you but I don't want a SINGLE melee player, let alone hax making huge decisions on how the game functions.
@@Jin-lp5lt 1.03 te only has z jump fix, dash out of crouch, 1.0 cardinal and shield drop fixes (which are all controller dependent) along with other more minor changes to things such as SDI and vertical throws, it also fixes bugs such as the polling drift issue. Stage changes can also be turned on or off.
@@Jin-lp5lt agreed but hax is the only one who was willing to go through fire to get the work done. We have the solution right in front of us idk why we don't just take it
from an outside perspective it seems kinda crazy that it is recognized there are some gamecube controllers with inherent hardware advantages over other gamecube controllers and people don't want to allow new controllers that kinda standardize these advantages so that everyone could have access to them, especially given how there isn't a steady supply of new gamecube controllers to begin with idk im just a dude who plays mostly st and shmups tho so there might be something im missing
I am not a super pro either but I saw a vid several years ago on custom controllers specifically for melee and it goes pretty deep into the modifications you can have. I think it goes past what standard 3rd party controllers have to offer in many regards. Then you get to the box style controllers which are another giant can of worms, not just in smash but across all fighting games.
It's mostly because the new "standard" of controller is always hilariously expensive. It can never truly be the standard when you have to shell out upwards of 300.
@@JathraDH i am familiar with box style controllers; i used to play skullgirls and fightcade on my keyboard when i was at an apartment and didn't have my stick, and recently got a hitbox style controller to mess around with
@@tetermc 300 is steep. i know some friends who dropped 300 on a qanba dragon or a victrix and its kinda crazy to me to spend that much on a controller. of course i kinda saved a lot by building my first stick, which ended up coming out to around $50 because of some free wood i turned into a case. it would not surprise me tho if building a custom gamecube controller is more expensive than that (as well as being less documented)
just implement software fixes. nobody wants to admit 1.03 is better for the game because hax posted cringe when he was going through shit. doesn't change the fact that he's a melee scientist and his software solutions would be good for the game.
@@miniyodadude6604 yeah but it is more accessible and consistent between controllers and doesn't require spending extra money. it may not elevate individual controllers to the same consistency, but it does elevate the game overall. controller modding isn't going away anyway so what's the point of gatekeeping higher consistency behind physical mods when you instantly elevate every controller by modding the game. like Mango said it's just stupid politics and we might have already implemented it already if someone else had been the one advocating
@@mathisrecords the earliest version was available for purchase via pre-order, but on the day of release, it was made free. And he announced that it would be free to download and use. That was just if you wanted to buy a $10 memory card with it already put on. From the very first day of the very first version of 1.03, it was free.
is button mapping really that much of an issue if the buttons do the same thing and are just arranged differently for the players preference? Should all players be forced to only use the Y button for jump to even the playing field?
@ltzp2 Might get tournaments shut down or prevented from being streamed by Nintendo if there is an obvious mod being shown on screen (like a button remapping screen). Its not guaranteed to be shut down but it adds risk.
@@granderf8 I agree with you in theory but when you risk getting a cease and desist, you kinda have to care what Nintendo thinks. I can’t imagine TOs wanting to take the risk of even the possibility of their event being shut down due to all the time, money and administrative investment that all would go to waste
We should want a new player to be able to pick up a player and start learning immediately as there's a lot to learn. They shouldn't be thinking about "should i get capacitors in my controller because the falco laser dashback catches?" The investment into the controller won't make the player better, it will just remove these annoyances that happen. 1.03 UCF with Z-jump on a slippi build sounds pretty fun in comparison.
We're going to get to a point where people have completely different controller for completely different characters, and there will be little to no overlap, or even competition unless you're willing to fork cash, and then people will wonder why nobody plays melee anymore. Personally, I _could care less_ if you think gamecube controllers are too expensive. They aren't, and ha've been the default way to play the game since 2001, and there is no argument to say that should be illegal. The box is your little brother in the car, hovering his finger in his face saying "this isn't illegal" even though it damn well isn't in the spirit of the rules, or fair play.
Wanting to play with a controller that isn’t a GameCube isn’t in the spirit of the rules or fair play? Lol ok gatekeeper guy. Some people just want to play with another controllers, including myself.
@@Ben-eh6tm Nobody cares if you want to do that at home for fun, but if I was running locals, I would tell you to go home. The game was not designed for this type of movement, and neither are any of the other fighting games. *_Twenty two_*_ consecutive lightnings_ as Kazuya the first time you boot it, something people practicing the character and motion for that many years can barely do, is obscene. I feel people like you see this, and instead of thinking about how it threatens to unravel the very mechanic of motions, just want the advantage. As for Hax, people in regular sports who blow out their legs, or get into accidents stop playing too. We are not being unfair to him, other people with disabilities, or you when we say you're out of luck. Play the game as it is designed during tournament play, or not at all. If you want to use a cheatbox, go ahead, but do it at home, among friends. I do not want to match with you in ranked, or even unranked if you do. There is a reason crouching heavy punch is straight inferior to DP, and if you trivialize the motion, we might as well not have special motions.
@@Ben-eh6tm Thats perfectly fine. That doesn't mean I can bring brass knuckles into a boxing ring. Same gloves = same controllers. No exceptions, otherwise its not an even matchup. Objectively, the hardware provides an advantage. This isn't supposed to be a game of who has the most skill and the best hardware, its just supposed to be who has the most skill.
@@gyroninjamodder That is such an unbelievably bad idea it's not even funny. Do you have any idea how badly a turbo button would break this game in half?
@@tetermc breaking out of grabs faster or taking less knockback doesn't "break this game in half." His video even showed he could mash better than the turbo button.
Or people who don't have money to spend on a new controller every year. Paying $150 every year (absolute longest you'd get out of a GC controller before PODE ruins it) for a new controller is insane. The boxx is more or less a 1 time purchase that requires half the maintenance of a GCC and is much easier to fix yourself with problems that occur as it'll most likely be with a single key that can just be swapped out in 15 minutes. I struggle to get GCC's to work consistently for a year. 2 years in my boxx has never failed to work the same that it did day 1.
@@debeb5148 if they made a brain chip controller that let people with no hands do z jumps by thinking about them would u want them tournament legal, what is the argument here lol
i think these controllers are fine, oem gc controllers only get older and older, i think boxx and goomwaves and phobs are good standardizations/modernizations
I'm honestly not exactly sure why implementation of 1.3 at tourneys seemingly hasn't even been a discussion within the community, but I would imagine a lot of it has to do with it being a software mod and we know Nintendo's been on a bad streak of interfering with tournaments over the past few months/years.
Nah fam, UCF is a software mod and it's been standard for ages. The real issue is everyone has personal issues with hax. That and a bit of what mang0 was expressing here, the weird belief that the janky bullshit is part of what makes Melee special. A lot of the old guard are purists who oppose any change even if it makes the game better. We went through this whole fight for UCF even though it's pretty much universally agreed to be a good thing now.
@@crondog “everyone” doesn’t have an issue with hax, it’s a few select people and few top players with a lot of power in the community, who do have a problem with hax. the community is corrupted beyond belief.
Right but have you considered hax$ hurt leffen's feelings when he called out his toxicity? That's perma-ban worthy, and we should disregard all his proposed changes.
TRUE DOOD, i hope the controller revolution eventually evolves to something standardized. I think a big problem right now is the level of tuning and customization that is possible from the end user perspective. When controllers are competing both in the front of “my controller sucks enough to be legal” but also “my controller has more features and “cheatures” than the competitor” it’s just not gonna be competitive until some regulator comes in. And god, i pray that regulator isn’t blur or leffen
@@berekexer8158 i see where you’re coming from but i have to disagree with one thing. Oems are the root of our problems. They are not a good example of a standardized controller and vary WILDY across the board
@@Apocobat They are still far more standardized than non oems by a mile. The variance between different non oems is a greater issue than the variance of oems.
The part of them talking about hax$ and the politics behind it was super interesting and it seems like button swapping is now political is pretty interesting, thanks for uploading
According to Joey, you lightshield on one trigger (one that has their spring intact for the analog control of the shield), and then "hardshield" on the other trigger (one without the spring for just the full digital press of the shield) So yeah, you need to cut/remove one of the trigger springs
@@Lavkia is it better to have it this way? And which trigger spring would be more practical to cut? What’s the usefulness? Sorry for the questions, so out of date but recently started losing to a z jumping guy and this has changed my whole perspective on how to get good lol
@@Pingponglu42069I use left trigger for wave dash and L cancel so I took the spring out of that one. Helps it just be way faster and easier to press overall. Obviously had to change muscle memory with the spring being gone but was worth it for me. Kept spring in right trigger tho
Dw about it. It's all about preference, just like jumping with X or Y (or tap jump if you're Hungrybox). You can start building the muscle memory for one trigger for normal shield/powershield and another one for lightshield, and seeing which is more comfortable. Then later you can try calling a modder or looking up a tutorial on remove a spring. Having a trigger without the spring can make you do your commands faster. So, wavedashing, l-cancelling and powershield tend to be easier without the spring resistence on the trigger. A cheaper alternative is using the old trick: Fully press one of your triggers when plugging a controller into a Gamecube/when starting up Melee on your emulator. Having the trigger fully pressed during the startup essentially disables the analog press for that button, and makes the game only receive your full digital press. You still have the physical spring resistence, but the game won't register a lightshield. So you can do that on one of your triggers for easy access to powershields. Usually it's not that big a deal though. A lot of top players say you can easily get into top 100 without a modded controller. As much as people talk about it, Z-Jump modding is still kinda unreliable. The Z-Button is not the most tactile, so to use it like that, you need to mod the button as well (the mouse-click button mod that Joey mentioned), and that can cause it's own set of problems. I would probably wait for modders to get more experienced with it.
I'm all for rectangle controllers. I have some friends with hand pain that literally can't play as much Melee as they want without them. It's an accessibility issue to me, and that to me is more important. More people able to play Melee means more Melee which is more good. I agree that this leads to various issues, and everything talked about in the video is valid. What's the best solution though? A nerfed rectangle controller?
If you ask Hax, the solution is to buff the gamecube controller. The Boxx is already nerfed by design to avoid some of the most egregious things that are not and should not be possible. You can always take it point by point, but I think it goes without saying that Melee is a game thats technicality has outgrown its controllers. Gamecube controllers suffer from a ton of issues, and the game itself has important techniques that can literally succeed or fail purely based on RNG or based on your luck with your controller not sucking. It's a legitimate conversation to talk about how to buff the controller to work around these limitations.
@@beardalaxy 100%. I’m curious if the ergonomics could be maintained while still making boxx players have to work on their angles and stuff this way. I doubt good boxx players would want to transition though
Everyone gets a tested standardized controller from the venue at LAN tourneys. It's the only way or just outright ban controller above certain price points...
@@Noahtheorigianl it is, but at the same time he has a point. if you cant use your legs you dont get to run the marathon on a motorized wheelchair. if box lets you do things you cant on a regular controller it should be changed accordingly.
I would argue that notches are cheating because it takes away human inconsistencies, but SnapBack mods weren’t cheating because it didn’t make anything easier for the player; it just made the controller do what the player input
@@austinjones7569 I say anything that removes error should have been considered cheating back in 2015, but now all these mods and shit exist for our controllers when guys like me who just buy oem to play the game get left more and more in the dirt.
b0xx is: - not cheating - removes hardware-barrier-to-entry for a lower cost than goomwave/phob - comes with a ridiculously steep learning curve (more than GCC by far) - better for long-term hand health/more ergonomic - is the exact same as having alternative input methods in other FGC games - doesn't "buff" people's skill, instead allows people to do away with OEM controller jank If you ban b0xx, you need to ban all the other modded controllers and the only legal controllers need to be un-notched OEM controllers. But no one wants this because the pros all love the quality of life improvements that come with having a tailored, modded controller.
Notches, button remapping, boxx, all lame as fuck and should have never been allowed. Don’t change the hardware and software to fit your needs, play the game.
It may very well be paid to win, but melee is already pay to play. If you want a good GameCube controller, it’s still pretty pricey. But honestly, if you’re actually good enough to be worrying about the difference that is made with a controller, then you can probably get one pretty easily. If you’re not at the top level, you don’t need a new controller, you need more experience. Playing stickless isn’t gonna of all the sudden make you better at combos, help you predict your opponents moves, or make you better under pressure. It’s just gonna make you feel even worse when you’re still not good.
claw is better because you can have a finger on the z button and y button and r button and thumb on b so you can grab immediately on top of jumping immediately and can grab cancel easily
The worst part of these custom controllers is not only that you have to pay a lot for a controller, these mods and people who can go them are rare, you pretty much need to be on a waiting list to get a modded controller.
Since this video generated a lot of discussion, i wanna add some points that i think should be taken into consideration As much as Mang0 is a top player, he himself admits to not knowing a lot of the inner workings of controllers. The video is more about their opinions. Just don't use this video to discredit any player using Box controllers or modified GC controllers. The discussion is still going on, and most of us haven't even touched these controllers in our lifes to be able to judge them tbh For the common question of "Why can't we just use X software mod?" As someone from a region with essentially no modders, i'm happy with any universal controller buffs. The thing is that, first of all, these buffs need to be hidden to avoid drawing attention from Nintendo. Second, every single change needs to be individually analysed by the community, and a consensus needs to be formed. The next version of UCF is doing this in its development, taking a couple of features from 1.03 for example, but not the whole thing, because we haven't finished discussing the meta changes that could come with all of its mods. Third, software mods can't deal with the natural degradation of analog sticks. There are things that only hardware mods can do, so they should stick around, but still abide by established limits. People already agree that notches and Box-style controllers were approved way before enough discussion was made about them. That's why the community doesn't want to rush these kinds of decisions. Finally, to newer Melee players: For 99% of us, controllers aren't the bottleneck for our results. As long as you stretch your hands and play with good posture (and don't have any preexisting hand conditions), you should be fine with any controller. It's only at the top level where this stuff really matters (unless your controller has horrible dashback or something, that actually sucks).
Would a 1.03 Melee memory card have a similar level of legality as something like a Game Genie? I feel modding the game itself would have more legal scrutiny than an external modification device playing on original hardware and disc.
Lucky is right, you're paying for an advantage which is the definition of pay to win. It makes competitive melee less accessible by putting up a p2w barrier, and the alternative of a software fix is just superior
@@Lars_lml no because you can do things with a modded controller that you cant with a normal one as opposed to a mouse where you can do the same thing with every mouse
New tournament rule: every player needs to use the madcatz mini wireless controller bc playing on a controller that doesn't suck makes the game easier.
8 minutes of "pay to win is basically cheating" while never addressing the fact that the alternative is to pray to the Melee Gods your controller isn't just a POS.
Hypothetically if I wanted to get my controller modded, what's the best way to go about doing it? I just ordered some spare parts and a new controller, so I'm gonna have like 3 controllers to mess with.
I’d rather have people paying for modded controllers than have people running around with bags full of controllers like m2k used to. Like bro there’s already disparity between original controllers, at least now you can chose to invest in mitigating that. Like as sad as it is pay to win still gives more player agency than raw life rng. The problem ain’t cheating controllers, but the lack of accessibility for controllers that don’t hold you back.
The problem is exactly what Joey said near the end: accessibility. Unfortunately, Melee has a myriad of problems with accessibility especially at this point in its life cycle. Most original GCCs either are gone forever or arent consistent enough in quality to bet on, Melee lacks built in online play, it lacks good AI to practice against, it lacks many useful training mode options, and of course it lacks in game button remapping. Shit, a person might consider themselves lucky to find a decent hard copy of the game itself. These are the reasons why it's hard to compare Melee to other fighting games when it comes to rulesets, cause in other games ANYONE can remap their controller in the vanilla version of the game. If the people who make training mods like 20XX, UnclePunch and UCF could make button remapping possible then that would help the cause, because I'm all about improving player experience. I just wish we had the same privileges as other games in the FGC cause this stuff wouldnt even be an issue. I use a worn out GCC controller from the 2014 wave of production, it used to be very good actually but it's starting to have issues. I would kill to play on a Phob or Goomwave, but i dont even have a computer to play online or anyone to play with in person atm, so everyone should count their blessings tbh. I do think there should be limits, but very minimally (no macros, turbos, stuff like that). It'd be a shame to see the community go backwards in progression because they dont want people to have an advantage. I think we should have all the advantages we can get, in the end if we're putting in this huge time and money commitment to play in tournaments at high level then we gotta go all in.
Since day 1 I've been on the train that we should just mod melee with modern smash game button remaps. Since a lot of this is you have to pay to have buttons changed just add the feature into the game. Lets add a tap jump off method just full button remaps we aren't in the early 2000's anymore
it sounds so simple but there's no agreed upon "community mod pack" due to numerous factors - the closest is UCF which is just a memory card file which probably couldn't do that. This is why I was a PM fanboy like 10 years ago, even though I now understand better how different the games are that it would've never reached Melee's level of competition even if it hadn't been quietly buried.
GCCs are p2w because I would have to pay for them, when I already have my keyboard. This means keyboard is the ultimate way to play melee without it being p2w
To be fair though, saying its wack because you have to pay someone is stupid. Before people started all this controller shit you had to buy 100 controllers to try and find one that could dash back. Button mapping at least should have been in the game from day one.
I think the biggest problem is that it just increases the barrier of entry even more. And 99% of controller modders live in the USA. Players from the Melee communities in Oceania, Asia and South America are just stuck with old OEM controllers. That's kinda sad. When people like Joshman, Chape and Inngenn travel to the USA, they're just playing with objectively worse hardware than their competitors.
@@Lavkia EU controller modder here, this isn't a reason to discourage modding. If more ppl are encouraged to mod then higher availibilty -> more compeition -> lower prices for consumers. Really nice editing btw.
@@NintenJoe Thanks for the feedback. That's true, having more modders is definitely better for the community. I didn't mean to discourage controller modding, i def expressed myself poorly. I meant to bring up that point just to say that having only hardware mods would keep the regional disparity. Imo, the best scenario would be to have all possible software buffs for all controllers, and then have the hardware mods on top of that (also brought up that point because i don't hear enough people talking about regional differences when discussing these things). I say "possible software buffs" because dealing with Nintendo AND making sure that any buffs won't drastically change the meta (like what some people believe would happen with a dashback out-of-crouch buff) is tough. It's a good thing the UCF team is looking into that. Regardless, there's stuff that only hardware mods can deal with afaaik (PODE shenanigans, magnetic sticks, mouse-click buttons, etc). That's why i agree that hardware modding should be incentivized. Our current system is still way better than an OEM controller lottery, and i didn't mean to seem like i was expressing the opposite. Ty for the service you provide for the community btw. It's great to see controller modders from other regions.
Literally every other fighting game: Allows box type controllers with no issue. Melee players: have a melt down at the thought of their game being slightly more consistent
The pros need their p2w hardware advantages. An average joe could buy a b0xx fairly easily, allowing them to level the playing field in terms of hardware, whereas goomwaves and phobs are very inaccessible to most.
@@gamedragonify okay i dont really care if melee is special. i care about certain controllers giving advantages over others. whether other scenes allow it or not isnt really relevant.
Personally I think button remapping should just be a thing, but there's no way that will happen. With Nintendo being the way they have been lately, there's absolutely no chance that we would be able to swing using anything other than vanilla Melee on stage/stream. Otherwise, Big House 10 wouldn't have gotten cancelled.
The "pay to win" argument makes no sense to me. It's a hobby that costs money for literally anyone to participate in. Video games have become a fact of life for many, but we should remember it isn't free and that's the reality of it. Some have more to invest in their hobbies. Custom and modded controllers are loved by many casual fans and tournament goers alike who just have a bit more cash laying around. I think sweeping measures about controller bans will only serve to fracture the community and I can't see any good coming out of it.
as a fgc player its good to know people continue to complain about controllers here aswell despite them never actually affecting tournament results, your minmax controller will never make you better than a pro, you gotta minmax yourself
OEM controllers are still pay to win because you need to be lucky to get a good one and they only stay good for so long in competitive play until you have to get a new one to stay relevant. The ones that are verified to be perfect for Melee get massively marked up in price on sites like eBay. On pretty much any game where the default controller type is out of production, the standard becomes pay to win at no fault of the devs or the community at large.
You know what, no more controllers. From now on players will just let the melee intro play on loop and just bare knuckle box until someone gets knocked out.
The real melee we all want
Didn't hugs just tko someone or something at Ludwig's
@@BadMoonLLC No. 2 at Evo 2007, No. 1 in your hearts (and Ludwig Chess Boxing exhibition)
No, we thumb wrestle
Very cringe
Imagine showing this video to the melee community in 2005... UCF, B0XX Controllers, Goomwaves, Phobs... Crazy how far this game has come
Groomwave is a sus name for a company
20XX will be neuralink controllers
They say “what’s that”
@@chadking8767 i'd say it fits the smash community perfectly
yet they are still nowhere near what they thought they'd be
people should only be allowed to the crusty gamestop controllers from 2006
The complaint i'm hearing 'it costs money so it's sus' as a brand new player to melee, you have to get a controller either way, and it's not like legit gamecube controllers are cheap, and it's not like a shitty used gamecube controller from ebay is fair when pro players are buying brand new or modded controllers. At that point, I think the argument for accessibility has tooth, and it reasonable to start the conversation at 'what kinds of controllers alternative to a pure gamecube controller will be acceptable?'
Well it’s also accessibility on the modders end. While there definitely is more than before there still isn’t that many modders, especially with ones who have their hands on goomwaves and phobs and z jump and all these crazy trigger mods. It’s hard to find a respectable modder (some modders and controller people say there’s only 4 of them) to go though because their controllers sell out instantly, so the only way to get one would be lan where you can actually test them out.
Edit: just wanna give a little example. Leffen (who yes is often a complainer and does have super high controller standards) said like 3/4 of his phobs were broken and didn’t work properly, making him waste thousands. A modder pointed out that he should have went to one of the more respectable modders instead, however it does show the quality outside of the respectable modders isn’t always the best
R u stupid?
I've been a arcade player since the 90's, and we had to deal with these "alternative" controller like Hitbox/Leverless a decade before the smash community. It even took us some time to accept Pad as a viable controller, with much complaining about some advantages it has over arcade sticks.
As someone how doesn't play competitive smash and likes to casually play Gamecube, I understand the expensive cost of getting a good condition GC controller. That's not considering winning the "lottery" of getting a competitive viable "defective" GC controller that I understand Smash pro need to do specific tech. The accessibility to play at those standards are so high, much higher than any competitive game, that it's laughable the old heads calling the alternatives "P2W" lol.
Eventually, all available GC controller will be exhausted even at insane prices, and anyone wanting to play Smash will have to ether get a Boxx, custom, or a specialized 3party controller with it's own quality of life improvements. The smash community will a some point forced to move beyond the OG GC controllers.
right, and it aint a box. cheater shit
@@digitaljin8362that’s kinda my perspective. it doesn’t have to be “cheating” if the community embraced it and proved there was a market for the controller beyond the high level / wealthy players
seems like melee as a community should be grateful there is still a competitive community at all
Just wanted to mention that I managed to run into Lucky at a brewery somewhere in Anaheim like 7 years ago.
All around awesome person, even let me buy him a pint for a picture- he was very much happy to do that! But too bad I lost the photo now.
I wonder if he still has that nice melee-themed Gorillaz album shirt.
Good times.
That shirt sounds fire
this story sounds like a dream hahaha
I saw Hungrybox at a grocery store in Florida yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and popped off at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by resting really loudly.
yoo i bought that melee demon days shirt bc i saw lucky wear it once ^^
@@simanolastname2399I haven’t seen that copy pasta in awhile lol
The pros have had access to controllers that gave them an advantage for years. Most people struggle to find a working GameCube controller at all. For a while if your controller broke you had to either fix it yourself or know a guy. Same with notches, etc. The box and goomwaves are all just a natural progression of that.
It’s selection bias. You won’t get to pro level without a good controller. Of course they all have access…
Natural progression doesnt mean an exponential jump in less than a couple years
@@sterlifyy That’s literally the nature of technology. But I’d argue that it’s been fairly gradual anyway. People have been software/hardware modding controllers for years. The stiffer the competition becomes the more people will try to squeeze out of their tools to gain an advantage. It’ll keep going that way until we set a hard boundary where beyond that line is considered “cheating”.
This is true as fuck I remember having to fuck with my own controller for a couple weeks one time and now one of weekly players just became one of the best controller modders in the world so everyone in our region just all has nutty controllers
A new GameCube controller is 100 USD and much more work to acquire.
People think this controller issue arose from people wanted an advantage. It came from people who were sick of looking for that controller which was "just right" or people who had LITERALLY HAND INJURIES FROM PLAYING. Does no one remember M2K from a decade ago coming to tournament with like 7+ gamecube controllers?
You can't really say it's one or the other. It's always been both, although it was probably worse back in the day.
Hitbox was one of the earliest options, and immediately branded as "cheatbox" in the scene. Early adopters in particular, weren't people lacking controllers, but more often specifically people looking for the advantage they were hearing about. Melee was like the most anti box community I knew at the time, but has constantly become more and more open to them, as getting a proper gamecube controller keeps getting harder.
nah it's just Americans blaming everything they can except themselves. Nintendo, God, the controller, the TV, Jigglypuff, anything but taking responsibility.
Next you people are going to be telling us you should be able to program macros because 'wave dash combos are too hard without it! I will hurt my soft widdle handies!"
@@shoopoop21 macros is pretty far off from ergonomics. The gc controller was designed as a good all around controller with great longevity, it was not created with anything close to the way melee is being played in mind. Imagine someone using like a PlayStation controller to play a traditional fighting game for a long time, damaging their hand in the process, and accusing people who use pads or boxes of cheating. Is not destroying your hands technically an advantage? Yes, but that's a srawman as far as I'm concerned. The question is is it an UNFAIR advantage. As people have pointed out, customized game cube controllers are often times more expensive than boxes/pads anyway, so this whole "its pay to win" thing is nonsense, they aren't that expensive and when you take into account the medical bills you'll have to pay to have your arthritis/carpel tunnel treated from playing with a GameCube controller the price of a more ergonomic controller is hardly an issue.
@@ltzp2 Mango doesn't agree with any of that nonsense, and neither do I. Its hard for a reason.
I'm a boomer who likes OEM-only, but if I had to pick a solution, I would go with software mods (aka button remapping, like in 1.03). Gives access to everybody equally
If I done a Melee 1.03 tweak or a 1.04, I would make the input consistency like Ultimate and adjust low tiers to be as good as Peach etc
@@bailujen8052 adjusting lowtiers is not worth the balance
Most of the Melee community agrees, but then we risk facing the wrath of Nintendo, thanks to their no mods policy
@@NathanielScarwho cares they literally already hate us we got rid of project m and they still weren't happy
@@tsrenis Unfortunately, any large scale tournaments wanting to stream the game will have to comply. Ether risking getting a letter from Nintendo Legal or not stream at all, which would lead to lack of exposer, decrease of interest, pulling in new talent, and decrease in prize pool.
"If you could just change some settings..."
That's literally what 1.0.3 is, did people forget or are we still being stupid about Hax$?
1.0.3 is literally a fan mod and people want to use the vanilla game. Dur.
@@debeb5148 except ppl already use ucf etc....
@@leaffinite2001 Not all tournaments.
@@leaffinite2001 there were times it was nixed from tournaments, and going forward if you aren't hiding it, it'll be nixed then too
@@debeb5148 ucf is almost universally used and why not mod it also slippi is used even for some offline tournaments because of quality of life
"B0xx is pay to win" My brother in christ you're spending hundreds of dollars for someone to mod your controller.
The really messed up part is that Nintendo will not allow the mods in tournaments that would make this accessible to everyone, so it's actually just Nintendo's fault.
spoken like a true American teenager. how long was the game played competitively without any of that garbage? over a decade
@@OrchidEleven imagine how much melee fans could do if instead of trying to make melee into the game they think it is, they just made their own game.
@@OrchidEleven stealth UCF (universal controller fix, a software mod) has been used at major tournaments for ages. probably since around 2016 or 17? the changes are subtle enough (fixing shield drop, snapback, etc) that you literally can't tell just from gameplay that anything fishy is going on.
@@Atr0 how do they patch that in? memory card? I remember when 20xx was supposed to solve any hardware problems with controllers like that's hax$s whole thing I think. I don't think all tournaments use that but I might be wrong cos to me the scene got so messy the last few years and it became too hectic
just dont bring it up in convo that the game is modded, literally no proof to find out on nintendos end, they wont do anything.
ur just using big N as a scapegoat for the community being an L in this situation.
Lucky taking the Trevor Bauer angle. "It's absolutely cheating, but everyone's doing it, so I'll do it until someone says I can't."
This is not analogous. He’s sayin it *should* be cheating. It would be as if roids were allowed and someone on roids said they should not be.
@@goatfood1504 Trevor Bauer said the same thing.
@@rockzyk1291 You missed the point, roids are banned by the league, controllers are not. Controllers are not cheating as cheating means breaking rules. Controllers are perfectly legal in tournaments and thus he is not breaking rules. Lucky is not cheating, but is saying that it should be banned even though he does it.
@@goatfood1504 Apparently you're missing the point because roids are not the issue Bauer was dealing with.
@@rockzyk1291 sorry I was thinking of a different athlete
It's almost like Hax has been working on the in depth solution to this for over a year.
Another thing to remember with z jump is that a mouseclick z is MUCH better for endurance. The normal z or tactile z replacements take 8 million times more force to actuate.
tbf 1.03 fixes a lot of controller shit but you don’t hear many people advocating for it
Facts
Hax goes way too overboard with some of the changes and seems to have nobody keeping him in check. Idk about you but I don't want a SINGLE melee player, let alone hax making huge decisions on how the game functions.
@@Jin-lp5lthe released a version with no other changes but z jump and dash back fixes.
@@Jin-lp5lt 1.03 te only has z jump fix, dash out of crouch, 1.0 cardinal and shield drop fixes (which are all controller dependent) along with other more minor changes to things such as SDI and vertical throws, it also fixes bugs such as the polling drift issue. Stage changes can also be turned on or off.
@@Jin-lp5lt agreed but hax is the only one who was willing to go through fire to get the work done. We have the solution right in front of us idk why we don't just take it
from an outside perspective it seems kinda crazy that it is recognized there are some gamecube controllers with inherent hardware advantages over other gamecube controllers and people don't want to allow new controllers that kinda standardize these advantages so that everyone could have access to them, especially given how there isn't a steady supply of new gamecube controllers to begin with
idk im just a dude who plays mostly st and shmups tho so there might be something im missing
I am not a super pro either but I saw a vid several years ago on custom controllers specifically for melee and it goes pretty deep into the modifications you can have. I think it goes past what standard 3rd party controllers have to offer in many regards.
Then you get to the box style controllers which are another giant can of worms, not just in smash but across all fighting games.
It's mostly because the new "standard" of controller is always hilariously expensive. It can never truly be the standard when you have to shell out upwards of 300.
@@JathraDH i am familiar with box style controllers; i used to play skullgirls and fightcade on my keyboard when i was at an apartment and didn't have my stick, and recently got a hitbox style controller to mess around with
@@tetermc 300 is steep. i know some friends who dropped 300 on a qanba dragon or a victrix and its kinda crazy to me to spend that much on a controller. of course i kinda saved a lot by building my first stick, which ended up coming out to around $50 because of some free wood i turned into a case.
it would not surprise me tho if building a custom gamecube controller is more expensive than that (as well as being less documented)
just implement software fixes. nobody wants to admit 1.03 is better for the game because hax posted cringe when he was going through shit. doesn't change the fact that he's a melee scientist and his software solutions would be good for the game.
As someone who mods controllers, owns a phob, and has tried 1.03. 1.03 does not elevate controllers to goomwave or phob levels of consistancy
@@miniyodadude6604 yeah but it is more accessible and consistent between controllers and doesn't require spending extra money. it may not elevate individual controllers to the same consistency, but it does elevate the game overall. controller modding isn't going away anyway so what's the point of gatekeeping higher consistency behind physical mods when you instantly elevate every controller by modding the game. like Mango said it's just stupid politics and we might have already implemented it already if someone else had been the one advocating
1.03 fixes the pay to win problem in Melee. The only reason the community hasn’t accepted it yet is because Hax is banned. We need 1.03
Hax was literally charging people to buy 1.03
@@mathisrecords the earliest version was available for purchase via pre-order, but on the day of release, it was made free. And he announced that it would be free to download and use. That was just if you wanted to buy a $10 memory card with it already put on. From the very first day of the very first version of 1.03, it was free.
There really should be a universal button map implemented just like UCF
toxic
is button mapping really that much of an issue if the buttons do the same thing and are just arranged differently for the players preference? Should all players be forced to only use the Y button for jump to even the playing field?
@ltzp2 Might get tournaments shut down or prevented from being streamed by Nintendo if there is an obvious mod being shown on screen (like a button remapping screen). Its not guaranteed to be shut down but it adds risk.
@@alsayda7911after a certain point, who cares what nintendo thinks? they actively dislike the competitive smash scene
@@granderf8 I agree with you in theory but when you risk getting a cease and desist, you kinda have to care what Nintendo thinks. I can’t imagine TOs wanting to take the risk of even the possibility of their event being shut down due to all the time, money and administrative investment that all would go to waste
They never should've allowed modified controllers in any way. I knew it was doomed the second they started notching.
Thanks for annotating this stream clip, I love it
We should want a new player to be able to pick up a player and start learning immediately as there's a lot to learn. They shouldn't be thinking about "should i get capacitors in my controller because the falco laser dashback catches?" The investment into the controller won't make the player better, it will just remove these annoyances that happen. 1.03 UCF with Z-jump on a slippi build sounds pretty fun in comparison.
We're going to get to a point where people have completely different controller for completely different characters, and there will be little to no overlap, or even competition unless you're willing to fork cash, and then people will wonder why nobody plays melee anymore.
Personally, I _could care less_ if you think gamecube controllers are too expensive. They aren't, and ha've been the default way to play the game since 2001, and there is no argument to say that should be illegal. The box is your little brother in the car, hovering his finger in his face saying "this isn't illegal" even though it damn well isn't in the spirit of the rules, or fair play.
Wanting to play with a controller that isn’t a GameCube isn’t in the spirit of the rules or fair play? Lol ok gatekeeper guy.
Some people just want to play with another controllers, including myself.
@@Ben-eh6tm Nobody cares if you want to do that at home for fun, but if I was running locals, I would tell you to go home. The game was not designed for this type of movement, and neither are any of the other fighting games. *_Twenty two_*_ consecutive lightnings_ as Kazuya the first time you boot it, something people practicing the character and motion for that many years can barely do, is obscene. I feel people like you see this, and instead of thinking about how it threatens to unravel the very mechanic of motions, just want the advantage. As for Hax, people in regular sports who blow out their legs, or get into accidents stop playing too. We are not being unfair to him, other people with disabilities, or you when we say you're out of luck. Play the game as it is designed during tournament play, or not at all. If you want to use a cheatbox, go ahead, but do it at home, among friends. I do not want to match with you in ranked, or even unranked if you do. There is a reason crouching heavy punch is straight inferior to DP, and if you trivialize the motion, we might as well not have special motions.
@@Ben-eh6tm Thats perfectly fine. That doesn't mean I can bring brass knuckles into a boxing ring. Same gloves = same controllers. No exceptions, otherwise its not an even matchup. Objectively, the hardware provides an advantage. This isn't supposed to be a game of who has the most skill and the best hardware, its just supposed to be who has the most skill.
@@shoopoop21 My apologies, I didn't realize how serious you take this video game. I just play for fun and build controllers for fun.
i think the rules should move towards "anything is okay as long as the controller doesn't sequence inputs aka buffering or auto/turbo anything"
I think even auto and turbo would be fine. It makes it easier for people to input what they want to do so it's closer to a battle of minds.
@@gyroninjamodder That is such an unbelievably bad idea it's not even funny. Do you have any idea how badly a turbo button would break this game in half?
@@tetermc It wouldn't break the game.
@@gyroninjamodder Yes it would. AsumSaus has a video about banned controllers and he explains why it's banned.
@@tetermc breaking out of grabs faster or taking less knockback doesn't "break this game in half." His video even showed he could mash better than the turbo button.
Gamecube controllers are in extremely short supply at this point, so alternatives were necessary sooner or later.
I'll say it: notches are cheap we need to standardize to the DK Bongos
Dude this video was great we need more smash discussions like this
Why are we not playing 1.03?
All the complaints they have are addressed there as far as I'm concerned but no top player is willing to give it a try
It's because it's not an official, oem version of the game. IT'S MODIFIED.
@@debeb5148 so is UCF
@@skilledroy2672 And that is also sometimes not used at tournaments.
@@debeb5148 not often in the modern day most tournaments use them
If people ban boxx than people with hand pain and arthritis will be forced to drop melee
Good
@@glad_wow Touch grass.
Or people who don't have money to spend on a new controller every year. Paying $150 every year (absolute longest you'd get out of a GC controller before PODE ruins it) for a new controller is insane. The boxx is more or less a 1 time purchase that requires half the maintenance of a GCC and is much easier to fix yourself with problems that occur as it'll most likely be with a single key that can just be swapped out in 15 minutes. I struggle to get GCC's to work consistently for a year. 2 years in my boxx has never failed to work the same that it did day 1.
@@glad_wow Be a shame if your hands were broken then. Be grateful for what you got.
@@debeb5148 if they made a brain chip controller that let people with no hands do z jumps by thinking about them would u want them tournament legal, what is the argument here lol
Having this with Sonic Robo Blast 2 music in the back for a bit made this even more of a treat to watch over, ngl
i think these controllers are fine, oem gc controllers only get older and older, i think boxx and goomwaves and phobs are good standardizations/modernizations
doesn’t 1.3 solve nearly all of these issues by not having a hardware requirement for an issue that can be solved with software? i don’t understand.
I'm honestly not exactly sure why implementation of 1.3 at tourneys seemingly hasn't even been a discussion within the community, but I would imagine a lot of it has to do with it being a software mod and we know Nintendo's been on a bad streak of interfering with tournaments over the past few months/years.
Nah fam, UCF is a software mod and it's been standard for ages. The real issue is everyone has personal issues with hax. That and a bit of what mang0 was expressing here, the weird belief that the janky bullshit is part of what makes Melee special. A lot of the old guard are purists who oppose any change even if it makes the game better. We went through this whole fight for UCF even though it's pretty much universally agreed to be a good thing now.
@@crondog “everyone” doesn’t have an issue with hax, it’s a few select people and few top players with a lot of power in the community, who do have a problem with hax. the community is corrupted beyond belief.
Right but have you considered hax$ hurt leffen's feelings when he called out his toxicity? That's perma-ban worthy, and we should disregard all his proposed changes.
@@stradeup207 please tell me this is satire
TRUE DOOD, i hope the controller revolution eventually evolves to something standardized. I think a big problem right now is the level of tuning and customization that is possible from the end user perspective. When controllers are competing both in the front of “my controller sucks enough to be legal” but also “my controller has more features and “cheatures” than the competitor” it’s just not gonna be competitive until some regulator comes in. And god, i pray that regulator isn’t blur or leffen
It's called official controllers. You won't get anything more standardized
@@berekexer8158 wdym by official controllers? Oems?
@@Apocobat Yep
@@berekexer8158 i see where you’re coming from but i have to disagree with one thing. Oems are the root of our problems. They are not a good example of a standardized controller and vary WILDY across the board
@@Apocobat They are still far more standardized than non oems by a mile. The variance between different non oems is a greater issue than the variance of oems.
I think rivals does controllers best, everything is legal and it works just fine because everyone has the same set of controls on any hardware
PC is the future, but the future is scary when you see what some controllers can do
Doing claw you use up like 5 frames minimum IRL just to get into position.
get gud
Thats why u stay in position all day everyday bby
Which is exactly why you shouldn’t be given that advantage for free by modding your controller.
Absolutely appalling where would one get such a evil controller?
loved the Senna reference from Mango ❤
The part of them talking about hax$ and the politics behind it was super interesting and it seems like button swapping is now political is pretty interesting, thanks for uploading
How are they swapping from light shield to normal so quickly? At like 1:10
According to Joey, you lightshield on one trigger (one that has their spring intact for the analog control of the shield), and then "hardshield" on the other trigger (one without the spring for just the full digital press of the shield)
So yeah, you need to cut/remove one of the trigger springs
@@Lavkia is it better to have it this way? And which trigger spring would be more practical to cut? What’s the usefulness? Sorry for the questions, so out of date but recently started losing to a z jumping guy and this has changed my whole perspective on how to get good lol
@@Pingponglu42069I use left trigger for wave dash and L cancel so I took the spring out of that one. Helps it just be way faster and easier to press overall. Obviously had to change muscle memory with the spring being gone but was worth it for me. Kept spring in right trigger tho
Dw about it. It's all about preference, just like jumping with X or Y (or tap jump if you're Hungrybox). You can start building the muscle memory for one trigger for normal shield/powershield and another one for lightshield, and seeing which is more comfortable. Then later you can try calling a modder or looking up a tutorial on remove a spring.
Having a trigger without the spring can make you do your commands faster. So, wavedashing, l-cancelling and powershield tend to be easier without the spring resistence on the trigger.
A cheaper alternative is using the old trick: Fully press one of your triggers when plugging a controller into a Gamecube/when starting up Melee on your emulator. Having the trigger fully pressed during the startup essentially disables the analog press for that button, and makes the game only receive your full digital press. You still have the physical spring resistence, but the game won't register a lightshield. So you can do that on one of your triggers for easy access to powershields.
Usually it's not that big a deal though. A lot of top players say you can easily get into top 100 without a modded controller.
As much as people talk about it, Z-Jump modding is still kinda unreliable. The Z-Button is not the most tactile, so to use it like that, you need to mod the button as well (the mouse-click button mod that Joey mentioned), and that can cause it's own set of problems. I would probably wait for modders to get more experienced with it.
@@tempo9641 does yours work offline? I did this, but it only works on dolphin. Offline I get a constant shield input on the trigger with no spring
does it stop being pay to win if i get the dremel and soldering iron out and DIY it myself
People calling boxx pay to win, but also playing a controller lottery every time they buy a new one is hilarious
"50th controller I bought and still no dashback, last one just got PODE too"
"lol skill issue"
Life is pay to win man
lmao
@@l3g10nw life is pray to win brother 🙏🙏
That’s why sports are good because it’s the one place there is a level playing field
The box and controller argument sounds like controller vs mouse and keyboard on apex
lucky getting his "power unleashed" is the equivalent to krillin getting his power unleashed in dbz
Kappa
I'm all for rectangle controllers. I have some friends with hand pain that literally can't play as much Melee as they want without them. It's an accessibility issue to me, and that to me is more important. More people able to play Melee means more Melee which is more good.
I agree that this leads to various issues, and everything talked about in the video is valid. What's the best solution though? A nerfed rectangle controller?
yeah and fortunately much of the hardware is there & BOXX is accessible by design.
If you ask Hax, the solution is to buff the gamecube controller. The Boxx is already nerfed by design to avoid some of the most egregious things that are not and should not be possible.
You can always take it point by point, but I think it goes without saying that Melee is a game thats technicality has outgrown its controllers. Gamecube controllers suffer from a ton of issues, and the game itself has important techniques that can literally succeed or fail purely based on RNG or based on your luck with your controller not sucking. It's a legitimate conversation to talk about how to buff the controller to work around these limitations.
Adding analog buttons on the B0XX would be interesting.
@@beardalaxy 100%. I’m curious if the ergonomics could be maintained while still making boxx players have to work on their angles and stuff this way. I doubt good boxx players would want to transition though
Everyone gets a tested standardized controller from the venue at LAN tourneys. It's the only way or just outright ban controller above certain price points...
Box is necessary for people with medical hand issues
Haxs hands are literally fucked again lol
Bad argument
Fair argument is say
@@iwillgosomewherebad response
@@Noahtheorigianl it is, but at the same time he has a point. if you cant use your legs you dont get to run the marathon on a motorized wheelchair. if box lets you do things you cant on a regular controller it should be changed accordingly.
In this comment section you will find opinions from people that do not play the game.
were notches and snapback reducing shit not being used way before boxes? How was that not cheating
It was. Also, buying the best OEM controller for shield drops and dash back was cheating because it was Pay2Win.
I would argue that notches are cheating because it takes away human inconsistencies, but SnapBack mods weren’t cheating because it didn’t make anything easier for the player; it just made the controller do what the player input
@@tenslein8977 I heard it was more random chance than pay2win
@@austinjones7569 I say anything that removes error should have been considered cheating back in 2015, but now all these mods and shit exist for our controllers when guys like me who just buy oem to play the game get left more and more in the dirt.
@@debeb5148 Lotteries are pay2win because rich people can buy more tickets.
b0xx is:
- not cheating
- removes hardware-barrier-to-entry for a lower cost than goomwave/phob
- comes with a ridiculously steep learning curve (more than GCC by far)
- better for long-term hand health/more ergonomic
- is the exact same as having alternative input methods in other FGC games
- doesn't "buff" people's skill, instead allows people to do away with OEM controller jank
If you ban b0xx, you need to ban all the other modded controllers and the only legal controllers need to be un-notched OEM controllers. But no one wants this because the pros all love the quality of life improvements that come with having a tailored, modded controller.
Controllers should have never been notched dude lmfao
i mean every non-oem controller can be considered cheating (box, goom, phob, notched). allowing notches was a slippery slope and here we are.
Notches, button remapping, boxx, all lame as fuck and should have never been allowed. Don’t change the hardware and software to fit your needs, play the game.
Phob is way cheaper than boxx
@@ZaphodXLII frame1s are $150, b0xx is $230, phobs are anywhere from $300-$1000 depending on the modifications, and harder to get than a b0xx
It may very well be paid to win, but melee is already pay to play. If you want a good GameCube controller, it’s still pretty pricey. But honestly, if you’re actually good enough to be worrying about the difference that is made with a controller, then you can probably get one pretty easily. If you’re not at the top level, you don’t need a new controller, you need more experience. Playing stickless isn’t gonna of all the sudden make you better at combos, help you predict your opponents moves, or make you better under pressure. It’s just gonna make you feel even worse when you’re still not good.
Isn't this the same as xbox having the basic $60 controller and the $180 elite controller with paddles on the back?
pls make button remapping from 1.03 standard.
claw is better because you can have a finger on the z button and y button and r button and thumb on b so you can grab immediately on top of jumping immediately and can grab cancel easily
The worst part of these custom controllers is not only that you have to pay a lot for a controller, these mods and people who can go them are rare, you pretty much need to be on a waiting list to get a modded controller.
As someone who plays slippi online with an xbox controller and wins 6/10 matches, I can relate
Literally the plot line for Cars 3
Id say the only reason im playing with boxx is cause i have bad hand problems and the boxx helps relieve that stress
Since this video generated a lot of discussion, i wanna add some points that i think should be taken into consideration
As much as Mang0 is a top player, he himself admits to not knowing a lot of the inner workings of controllers. The video is more about their opinions.
Just don't use this video to discredit any player using Box controllers or modified GC controllers. The discussion is still going on, and most of us haven't even touched these controllers in our lifes to be able to judge them tbh
For the common question of "Why can't we just use X software mod?"
As someone from a region with essentially no modders, i'm happy with any universal controller buffs. The thing is that, first of all, these buffs need to be hidden to avoid drawing attention from Nintendo.
Second, every single change needs to be individually analysed by the community, and a consensus needs to be formed. The next version of UCF is doing this in its development, taking a couple of features from 1.03 for example, but not the whole thing, because we haven't finished discussing the meta changes that could come with all of its mods.
Third, software mods can't deal with the natural degradation of analog sticks.
There are things that only hardware mods can do, so they should stick around, but still abide by established limits.
People already agree that notches and Box-style controllers were approved way before enough discussion was made about them. That's why the community doesn't want to rush these kinds of decisions.
Finally, to newer Melee players: For 99% of us, controllers aren't the bottleneck for our results. As long as you stretch your hands and play with good posture (and don't have any preexisting hand conditions), you should be fine with any controller.
It's only at the top level where this stuff really matters (unless your controller has horrible dashback or something, that actually sucks).
Would a 1.03 Melee memory card have a similar level of legality as something like a Game Genie? I feel modding the game itself would have more legal scrutiny than an external modification device playing on original hardware and disc.
Lucky is right, you're paying for an advantage which is the definition of pay to win. It makes competitive melee less accessible by putting up a p2w barrier, and the alternative of a software fix is just superior
"hiding" something from nintendo that hundreds of thousands(?) of people are actively using and sharing on the internet is absurd lol
@@Bladieblah That's bs. Then every PC game is pay to win as well because someone has a better mouse+mousepad than I do.
@@Lars_lml no because you can do things with a modded controller that you cant with a normal one as opposed to a mouse where you can do the same thing with every mouse
New tournament rule: every player needs to use the madcatz mini wireless controller bc playing on a controller that doesn't suck makes the game easier.
This argument right here is a big part of why I quit trying to play this game competitively.
You have to buy a goldilocks controller. That is pay to win.
8 minutes of "pay to win is basically cheating" while never addressing the fact that the alternative is to pray to the Melee Gods your controller isn't just a POS.
@@treycuret everything that isn’t custom made is a pos.
It all started with notching. Remember that.
we need a cheaper alternative to box so the accessibility argument goes away
Mango gained +++ respect from me for name dropping Ayrton Senna. RIP the F1 goat
Hypothetically if I wanted to get my controller modded, what's the best way to go about doing it? I just ordered some spare parts and a new controller, so I'm gonna have like 3 controllers to mess with.
I’d rather have people paying for modded controllers than have people running around with bags full of controllers like m2k used to. Like bro there’s already disparity between original controllers, at least now you can chose to invest in mitigating that.
Like as sad as it is pay to win still gives more player agency than raw life rng. The problem ain’t cheating controllers, but the lack of accessibility for controllers that don’t hold you back.
The problem is exactly what Joey said near the end: accessibility. Unfortunately, Melee has a myriad of problems with accessibility especially at this point in its life cycle. Most original GCCs either are gone forever or arent consistent enough in quality to bet on, Melee lacks built in online play, it lacks good AI to practice against, it lacks many useful training mode options, and of course it lacks in game button remapping. Shit, a person might consider themselves lucky to find a decent hard copy of the game itself. These are the reasons why it's hard to compare Melee to other fighting games when it comes to rulesets, cause in other games ANYONE can remap their controller in the vanilla version of the game. If the people who make training mods like 20XX, UnclePunch and UCF could make button remapping possible then that would help the cause, because I'm all about improving player experience. I just wish we had the same privileges as other games in the FGC cause this stuff wouldnt even be an issue. I use a worn out GCC controller from the 2014 wave of production, it used to be very good actually but it's starting to have issues. I would kill to play on a Phob or Goomwave, but i dont even have a computer to play online or anyone to play with in person atm, so everyone should count their blessings tbh. I do think there should be limits, but very minimally (no macros, turbos, stuff like that). It'd be a shame to see the community go backwards in progression because they dont want people to have an advantage. I think we should have all the advantages we can get, in the end if we're putting in this huge time and money commitment to play in tournaments at high level then we gotta go all in.
4:08 is this the custom robo music!?!?!??!
Since day 1 I've been on the train that we should just mod melee with modern smash game button remaps. Since a lot of this is you have to pay to have buttons changed just add the feature into the game. Lets add a tap jump off method just full button remaps we aren't in the early 2000's anymore
it sounds so simple but there's no agreed upon "community mod pack" due to numerous factors - the closest is UCF which is just a memory card file which probably couldn't do that.
This is why I was a PM fanboy like 10 years ago, even though I now understand better how different the games are that it would've never reached Melee's level of competition even if it hadn't been quietly buried.
GCCs are p2w because I would have to pay for them, when I already have my keyboard. This means keyboard is the ultimate way to play melee without it being p2w
I love joey and mang0 but that's literally this argument in a nutshell.
1.03 adds the in software button remapping
To be fair though, saying its wack because you have to pay someone is stupid. Before people started all this controller shit you had to buy 100 controllers to try and find one that could dash back.
Button mapping at least should have been in the game from day one.
Someone correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure zjumping mods are incredibly easy and cheap to do yourself.
@@Sazaka Maybe if you're an electrical engineer
@@nifaso Yeah, but UCF doesn't address all of the issues unfortunately. Considering the 'U' stands for universal they should really just call it 'CF'.
once again the taking Melee seriously community is catching up on discussion the rest of the fighting game community had back in the early 90s
We jumped from Pads to Hitbox, and the now the crowd goes wild.
This video is a year old but I'll still post a message. I'm new to Melee and was wondering what is the rules for controllers. Can you button swap?
Its the falcon vs puff argument. OEM is just sicker
As if normal controllers dont cost money???
I think the biggest problem is that it just increases the barrier of entry even more.
And 99% of controller modders live in the USA.
Players from the Melee communities in Oceania, Asia and South America are just stuck with old OEM controllers. That's kinda sad. When people like Joshman, Chape and Inngenn travel to the USA, they're just playing with objectively worse hardware than their competitors.
@@Lavkia EU controller modder here, this isn't a reason to discourage modding. If more ppl are encouraged to mod then higher availibilty -> more compeition -> lower prices for consumers. Really nice editing btw.
@@NintenJoe Thanks for the feedback.
That's true, having more modders is definitely better for the community. I didn't mean to discourage controller modding, i def expressed myself poorly.
I meant to bring up that point just to say that having only hardware mods would keep the regional disparity. Imo, the best scenario would be to have all possible software buffs for all controllers, and then have the hardware mods on top of that (also brought up that point because i don't hear enough people talking about regional differences when discussing these things).
I say "possible software buffs" because dealing with Nintendo AND making sure that any buffs won't drastically change the meta (like what some people believe would happen with a dashback out-of-crouch buff) is tough. It's a good thing the UCF team is looking into that.
Regardless, there's stuff that only hardware mods can deal with afaaik (PODE shenanigans, magnetic sticks, mouse-click buttons, etc). That's why i agree that hardware modding should be incentivized. Our current system is still way better than an OEM controller lottery, and i didn't mean to seem like i was expressing the opposite.
Ty for the service you provide for the community btw. It's great to see controller modders from other regions.
Yeah, but they don’t cost 2x an OEM controller
Didnt know mang0 was a Senna fan. 2 goats fr
Literally every other fighting game: Allows box type controllers with no issue.
Melee players: have a melt down at the thought of their game being slightly more consistent
i mean box controllers are able to do things that even gooms/phobs cant, much less an oem. so its not a fair comparison imo
The pros need their p2w hardware advantages. An average joe could buy a b0xx fairly easily, allowing them to level the playing field in terms of hardware, whereas goomwaves and phobs are very inaccessible to most.
@@joetheseventeenth hitbox also gives advantages over pad/stick.
Melee isn't as special as you guys act like it is.
To be fair, whenever i check into the FGC, there's a Hitbox controversy going on, especially in Tekken and SF.
@@gamedragonify okay i dont really care if melee is special. i care about certain controllers giving advantages over others. whether other scenes allow it or not isnt really relevant.
melee's nattyornot era
what situations does mang0 use claw for?
yo the ChainDive music in the intro??
I hope everyone knows that you can in fact light shield with a button on oem, you can just buffer it with Z.
Personally I think button remapping should just be a thing, but there's no way that will happen. With Nintendo being the way they have been lately, there's absolutely no chance that we would be able to swing using anything other than vanilla Melee on stage/stream. Otherwise, Big House 10 wouldn't have gotten cancelled.
Button remapping changes the game.
@@glad_wowfor the greater good
The "pay to win" argument makes no sense to me. It's a hobby that costs money for literally anyone to participate in. Video games have become a fact of life for many, but we should remember it isn't free and that's the reality of it. Some have more to invest in their hobbies. Custom and modded controllers are loved by many casual fans and tournament goers alike who just have a bit more cash laying around. I think sweeping measures about controller bans will only serve to fracture the community and I can't see any good coming out of it.
The Senna reference is just golden
Isn't it normal in sports to buy good equipment. For example good shoes or a good racket.
but it's also normal for a sport to limit equipment that is so good it needs to become universal, like full-body swimsuits in swimming.
i use oem and i play at 800 apm with a 98% l cancel rate
Isn't z swap available on 20xx memory card 1.03 for like 20 bucks
And I'm pretty sure you can just copy the save file to a friend for free
I’ve played melee on emulator with a keyboard for over 5 years… thoughts?
Video games have always been pay to win to a degree,even back in arcades, more money meant more practice time
Not gaming tournaments though. Those are created such that all players have an equal chance based on skill and strategy to win.
The guy with the arcade cabinet at home was always the best player.
I didn't know z-jump was a thing, but I did map jump to R on ultimate for the same reason.
Trigger jump is the way
i love jumping with Z button in smash Ult, it feels a lot better
I know it’s irrelevant but what’s the song at 3:15?
"Love Lab" from Custom Robo
Hands up for the Custom Robo music playing
Button remapping is good. It costing money is bad for competitive fairness.
Modified controllers are TAS 😎
what part of it seems like a speedrun
"we should ban fox"
>Leffen quits melee
Absolute Victory
the average crayon enjoyer comment
I'm all for banning fox then
Don't we have 1.03 (and stealth edition) that addresses all these issues?
What was the intro music?
It's "Ruins of Tranquility" from ChainDive
as a fgc player its good to know people continue to complain about controllers here aswell despite them never actually affecting tournament results, your minmax controller will never make you better than a pro, you gotta minmax yourself
OEM controllers are still pay to win because you need to be lucky to get a good one and they only stay good for so long in competitive play until you have to get a new one to stay relevant. The ones that are verified to be perfect for Melee get massively marked up in price on sites like eBay. On pretty much any game where the default controller type is out of production, the standard becomes pay to win at no fault of the devs or the community at large.
DK Bongos only would solve this debate smh