I understand Tolkien's reason for not finishing "The New Shadow", but I find the setup to the story to be very interesting. It could've been like a reverse Lord Of The Rings story where the moral is that evil can never TRULY be destroyed, and if left unwatched, and unattended, it will grow again.
Yes, that's what he means with this Dark Tree, if it is not maintained and looked after, it will grow, and it will spread further from root to leaf. I think it's a very interesting concept!
The reason why Tolkien didn't like Dune I believe has it's roots in why he didn't feel the New Shadow was worth delving into. A comment I quite liked that I've heard about it is that Tolkien was much more idealistic, while Herbert was more pragmatic. Tolkien read hundred of pages of Dune only to be told lessons he had learned already in WW1, what humans do to survive. Tolkien's world of middle earth is almost a healing process for him after what he whitnessed what his fellow man can do in desperation.
Seems like he ran out of willingness to write something he didn't like. Where does one go after the defeat of someone like Sauron. It would be like Marvel s fourth phase
@@yurikendal4868 Sauron being defeated was a joyus occasion, but going from that to a new evil makes you depressed. It makes it feel like everything that people worked so hard for during the events of Lord of The Rings was all for nothing. But it is also realistic. Evil is not so easily eradicated just because you remove a evil tyrant.
@@Greendalewitch not that would have been interesting. He debated about writing that or not. The fourth age seemed to be about technology creeping in. Could such an event happened in such a setting?
The New Shadow teaches how important to maintain Vigilance even in times of Peace, as the Forth Age Progresses as the Elves and Dwarves fade and Men grew complacent and corrupt until it reaches its climax at Dagor Dagorath with Melkor/Morgoth as the secret Antagonist.
I think Tolkien found it depressing because it is. It's too close to reality in which we as humans are never satisfied and develop ideas which often become destructive. Or like the saying hard times create hard men, while easy times create weak men.
This was actually brought up in Wheel of time as well in the end which I loved Very interesting perspective where the dark one shows the book’s protagonist a world without strife or chaos or any trouble whatsoever and it actually proved evil in itself because people became complacent uncaring unworried When humanity faces this they don’t have ambitions nothing to strive for nothing to prove and ultimately nothing to live for
@@chasebrammer851 that’s absolutely true and it confirms the religious defense against what some atheist philosophers dub “the problem of evil” for how can humanity ever enjoy the good if they have never experienced evil. Both good and evil are two sides of the same coin.
What you said toward the end is almost exactly what I was thinking: "I find it even more interesting that the greatest threat to Man shifts from the source of evil, to his greatest servant, and then to an internal struggle. It has shifted from personifications of evil, great, almost cosmic incomprehensible figures, to a look within, to the hearts of Men. Possibly an even more terrifying prospect since such an enemy may be impossible to defeat. No longer would a Dark Lord halt the progress of man, and Man would have to deal with his own nature." Perhaps Tolkien felt that that was too close to home, too close to real life, and how would such an evil be vanquished or dealt with if not by fantastical struggle and war? I also think his heart was in the Shire and Elvendom, not in Gondor, and at his age he was ready to rest, besides a little dabbling, and be satisfied with the triumph of his works. I agree, though, that stories about the 4th Age, about Man's struggles within itself, with a dash of fantasy, would have been fun to read. And Tolkien's insights into human nature and the soul of Men I'm sure would have been profound and engaging.
It's interesting to think that Tolkien's own beliefs may have interfered here. The New Shadow really seems like a story of overcoming sin. Perhaps he thought it would be too difficult to come to a conclusion for this story without it working against what he would see as the human eucatastrophe. How does he get the race of Men to overcome sin without the incarnation of God on earth? I wonder if these sorts of thoughts plagued him when writing this.
@The Red Book I can see that, yes. Because wasn't Tolkien's creation of Middle Earth supposed to be the British answer to the fables and legends that other countries had and that Britain lacked? And wasn't it supposed to be a sort of pre-history of our own time? Also, Tolkien was a devout Christian as far as I know, so there's that factor as well. Gandalf was definitely a Christ-like figure. And, lastly, I think that Tolkien was perplexed with, and maybe slightly in despair of, the nature of mankind, having been in war himself and having seen, and despised, the darker, industrial/violent side of men. I think Tolkien's works came not just from the passion to create a world for new languages, art, cultures, and histories but also a desire to create a world he had control over and could demonstrate his conviction and belief in good and light and redemption, and ultimately the repudiation of darkness and evil. I think it was therapeutic for him'; a way to exorcise his demons and to affirm his ethics and values. After vanquishing Sauron it would then seem a bit demoralizing to have to then dive back again into mankind's stubborn insistence on being 'bored' with a good life and dabbling in dark matters for entertainment. Is this something that is simply an intrinsic part of man's nature? Is there hope for mankind? That's a huge, huge question to tackle.
@@dreemdazer i always said to myself, if tolkien is represented anywhere in his stories, it would undoubtably be with the elves or in hobbiton, where gandallf himself spends a lot of time talking to a certain, Tom Bombadil ;) OR if another aspect were to become very true, if it isn't already: tolkiens races, the world, are all aspects of the nature of mankind... Tolkien the creator, is at the core of EVERY aspect... meaning essentially, he is the creator... the one who is, the god jehova, is called I AM.. and what is the answer when frodo asks: who is tom bombadil?? .... Though he's not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit, Tolkien's world is presided over by a God known as Eru Illuvatar. This primordial entity shares many traits with the monotheistic gods of the real world, and was responsible for creating all life with the help of his first children, the Ainur. So who is tom bombadil - his own wife answer's frodo, with the words: "he is" ... in tolkiens world there's no such words without meaning ;) if you ask me tom is tolkien, and tom is eru in disguise... because... he is stronger than sauron, he is stronger than the corruption of morgoth/ melkor... proven, because he puts on THE ONE RING... and is entirely uneffected... even gandalf himself... in the books... WOULDN'T even touch the one ring, because he did not want to be tempted :) So... my conclusion is: he is all and he is none, center of all creation and the very source of life and light itself ... Eru Illuvatar ... but no tolkien is not eru... cause that would be calling yourself god... which would be blasphemy, but Eru is his interpretation of the one god.. therefore Eru bears his "mark" so to speak ;) Gandalf is a Maiar, and bears the flame of annor, and the "secret fire" which is the will of eru, he is a messenger and a bringer of hope.. he is the "angel sent" to save the realm from eternal darkness. and tom is stronger? therefore either a valar or... even more than.. because morgoth was a valar, the first darklord and the strongest... of all the valar .... and that means.. tom is not. and since uneffected by the ring when he wears it.... he can even see others WEARING IT.. he cannot be a valar unless he is morgoth aka... melkor.. Melkor (Quenya; "He who arises in might"), predominantly known as Morgoth (Sindarin; "Black Foe of the World") some say tom could be the last remnant of good inside the first of the darklords.. i doubt it though.. cause he NEVER "rises in might" he just... IS... in danish 'tom', means empty, and in old norse, 'Ek Eru' means: I AM - Eru meaning: to be, is or am.. but in a manner of speaking, as you also say yourself, tolkien is, the creator of THIS world... Therefore, it is not so far fetched to say: Eru illuvatar - 'he is'.
@@TheRedBook There was a section of the Unfinished Tales where a human woman and an elf debated on the nature of the soul, of what lies beyond death, the metaphysical differences between the two races, and of course, humanity's belief on their own lifespans. What is interesting is that it opens up that humans believe that they were once immortal like elves before being tainted (sound like a familiar story?), and the fact that it was heavily implied that the First Age humans did believed in a messianic figure
Its amazing how few people know about this. My brother took college courses on Tolkien and LOTR, he was a Theology major at Boston College and his mentor was Peter Kreeft, a Tolkien expert who actually was brought in to help with the movies and had never heard of it. I think the new shadow is a story exploring a very important aspect of human nature we need to confront. If I were him I might have started a story set in a new story universe about these themes. I think we are seeing the byproducts of this in part of human nature in the world today.. Discovering about this story actually has inspired me to take up writing again. I'm not working on a LOTR sequel but my own story universe that will explore this idea that times of peace and prosperity lead to discontent and growing evil. The working title of my novel is "A Watchman on the Wall"
If you haven't read it, there's a superb text called The Politics of Cultural Discontent, which explores what goes wrong in cultures. It's a study of three writers in pre-Nazi Germany and very thought provoking.
If Tolkien started another universe he would need an entire second lifetime to make it possible, lol. He would have surgically constructed new languages and cultures.
I read "The New Shadow" when "The Peoples of Middle-Earth" was newly published, and *I* thought it was terrific. It made perfect sense, and read more easily than anything since "The Hobbit." Tolkien may not have enjoyed writing this kind of material, to be sure, and abandoned it because he didn't like what it did to him. But as you say, that doesn't mean that he couldn't do it.
Agreed. It's too intriguing to ignore even if I understand the reasons for not continuing. As I said in another comment, it seems it would be very character driven, and Tolkien would excel in writing about the darkness in the heart of man
Excellent. I'm one of those who found LoTR in my teens, devoured it in days, and then looked around for a sequel only to discover there was none. So I was excited when Unfinished Tales hinted that there might have been more to come. Despite all of Christopher Tolkien's labours, 50 years later I still wish for the sequel. Equally, however, I recognise that fulfillment of that wish might only lead to disappointment. Seems Tolkien feared the same thing. I have seen several of your fellow RUclipsrs tackle this subject. You explain it better than any of them.
Thanks, Andrew, I kind of noticed they had covered it after I had recorded the video..so I was hoping it wasn't just repeating what they had already said! And I agree with your thoughts. Part of me really wishes there was more, but the fact Tolkien wasn't invested in it means it could have been disastrous. Maybe it is better that we just imagine it?
@@TheRedBook - I wish he had written more to fill in the 5,000+ years between the War of Wrath and the Quest of Erabor, since the Appendices read like encyclopedia articles. As for the 4th Age, who really wants to read about the disappearance of the elves, dwarves, ents, and hobbits (but the latter might have lasted into the 5th or 6th Ages)?
The New Shadow is a Perfect portrayal of Arda-Marred and How it must be destroyed to restore the New order of the World. Thanks for another video, waiting for more😉
I feel like The New Shadow was initially born out of a desire for Tolkein to continue illustrating the human condition. As many of us know, Tolkein was a devout Catholic and portayed many biblical ideas, principles, and stories within his world. The most telling is the story of a creation that finds itself imbattled with a sinister evil that wishes to dominate it for himself, and to cause as much hurt to Ilu-Vatar (God) as he possibly can. That is a direct parallel of the conflict between God and Satan, and how humanity has been the focus of such a battle. Initially, I can see how The New Shadow would have certainly downplayed the victory in LOTR, but, I think it would have only been a temporary overshadowing and that his desire to scrap it was more likely out of a fear that he wouldn't have time to finish it; that his great story would end on a sour note instead of a good one... There is a prophecy deep in Tolkein's lore where he says that Morgoth (Sauron's daddy lol) will escape the great void and that there will be a final cataclysmic battle between good and evil, very similar to the Book of Revelation. So, on the other hand, I can see how The New Shadow wouldn't have actually downplayed anything, at least not in the long-term. It makes sense for evil and corruption to continue to be able to thrive until the final defeat of Morgoth, the author of evil. Evil and corruption cannot be defeated until Morgoth himself is defeated for all eternity. I would have loved for this to have been finished, but, with the passing of Christopher Tolkein, it's doubtful any true LOTR literature will be produced again, internally within the family itself. So, we will likely never see anything come of this.
You'd perhaps be surprised that every few days I get some comment about terrible narration, volume, or how I'm boring :D . Glad they are in the minority!
Thank you, and yes, I am stuck between wishing we had more of it to read but also accepting it might have been bad based on Tolkien's own reservations. Some seem to be dead against such an idea, and others think it sounds interesting. We are left with less known about the Fourth Age than even the Second.
@@TheRedBook that's true and we sadly have to accept that it will not change and anything which might get published is not more than fanfiction Nevertheless to a degree I'm happy with not knowing what would have been, so everyone can spin bis own theories
Morgoth was always meant to return based off his earlier set writings, but I’m glad this wasn’t finished and the book to reintroduce him. I think in part Tolkien left it open for the imagination of the reader to decide how that all happens before the Second Song commences.
Honestly even if it was finished I’m sure that Tolkien would’ve done it beautifully. Furthermore, it’s not like we haven’t seen some depressing writing from him *cough* the whole first part of the Silmarillion *cough* and as I stated before Morgoth was always due to return but I think he would’ve preferred it to happen much later since he abandoned this story.
@@nueva681 Well. It is Christopher Tolkien that gathered the source material together and published it in a cohesive narrative, based off pages and pages of notes that his father left behind. It was therefore him ( not Tolkien ) that decided to throw out the idea of Dagor Dagorath, where Morgoth returns, because he thought his father abandoned his story. However, he later re-introduced the idea of Dagor Dagorath because he said he misunderstood his father intentions. The very last lines in the book The Fall of Gandolin recites the Prophecy of Mandos. This means that Dagor Dagorath is canon again.
I get that he thought it was a depressing type of story to tell. But it seems to me he'd already dealt with such a "depressing" tale re: the overall theme of "the evil of men" (or at least what appears to be an inherent flaw of men) being allowed to corrupt within Middle Earth, as it was something he had already depicted in his tale of the Fall of Numenor. Numenor was raised at the end of the First Age, a triumphant "victory" over evil/Melkor, and the world again appeared to be at peace (like at the end of the Third Age). Numenor grew in power etc., and later in the Second Age evil again stirs itself, men are corrupted into Melkor worship and Middle Earth is again thrown into violence and turmoil and men are cast down because of their failings. It seems that The New Shadow could have been a tale about how inherent evil (the Dark Tree) rises again to corrupt men, sort of an echo of what happened in the Second Age when the fruits of the tremendous victory over Melkor in the First Age were ultimately lost due to the stirrings of evil that are inherent to Middle Earth as a result of Melkor's tampering with the original Music. Except in this case the evil takes the form of Satanistic cults, the orc-play of children (perhaps morphing into something more sinister) etc. As a thriller then, it could depict how those on the side of Good work frantically to fight this new growing evil, maybe coming to a deeper appreciation and understanding of the nature of evil in the world, and in the course of fighting and defeating this New Shadow developing a better sense of how it comes to grow and how to better keep it in check until the world is remade and Melkor's harm ultimately repaired after Dagor Dagorath. Guess we'll never know.
Well, with all respect to Tolkien, there is the promised “Last Battle” when Morgoth returns. There easily could have been more stories leading up to, or dealing directly with it. Sauron was never the Great Evil. He only played at it. The greatest struggle was always past him. I can completely understand why the Armageddon of Middle Earth was something he’d rather leave to the mythic future…but I think I just found the inspiration I was needing to direct my next roleplay campaign.
It's interesting because despite Tolkien "abandoning" it , it seems that this just meant he didn't write more about it, not that it meant he actively removed it from his writings. It's almost like the Last Battle is a myth within the story, a tradition or belief of something that will happen later without Tolkien necessarily saying it would happen.
Even if there could've been ways to 'tweak' the story so that it would've been more faithful to the spirit of the Middle-Earth that the audience has come to know and love, my guess is that it still wouldn't have been enough to justify the existence of "The New Shadow" in this setting, and therefore I think Tolkien made the right choice. TNS would've sort of undermined the achievements of the characters from the previous works (in a sense, including Bilbo himself) and also the message that LOTR gave us through the course of the narrative, which is that the even the smallest person can make the most important difference in the world. I believe that's why the first two works by Tolkien had Hobbits as the protagonists, because they were essentially a representation of the "little men" in our world, those who live the simple life with no ambitions nor complex or grand desires. Another current theme was that a hero wasn't necessarily defined by his great heroic deeds in the moment of truth, but rather shown to have compassion with the smallest acts of kindness that would make the difference in the end, which is ultimately shown to be true with the main example being Gollum, spared by both Bilbo and Frodo, and at the end it was because of his existence alone that the one ring was finally destroyed, not by Frodo chosing to drop it at the moment of truth in the crack of doom. Besides, having evil to rise again just after the events of the last great war against Sauron's forces would also have made the efforts of the previous heroes ultimately 'useless'. And even if that wasn't too much of the case, seeing as how most of what I said is speculation, I felt it would have also been 'repetitive'; with the plot being of dealing with an evil that rested for years only to come back again... yet again (sort of). It kind of would've made for an extremely similar cast of characters as well, and I think that Tolkien, being as he was, wouldn't have wanted that to happen. At the end of the day, I think that LOTR is essentially a testament on sequels as a whole, given to how Tolkien's masterpiece WAS a 'sequel' to "The Hobbit" and how the author expanded upon the lore and worldbuilding to create something full of life and history of its own, and kept the spirit of the previous work not only intact, but actively improved upon it by creating a timeless story that can resonate with everyone as a whole. I believe that, while the idea IS intriguing, the story would certainly feel like it wouldn't belong in the world of Middle-Earth, beyond just the idea of "changing genres" from epic fantasy to a dark thriller still set in a fantasy setting. Tolkien knowing when to cancel or to stop making a sequel that'd feel 'unnecessary' to the legacy of his Legendarium says a lot about how much he cares and loves the world he created as an author, and part of why his 'Magnum Opus' is a testament to sequels especially today, because sequel works, series or others tend to try to set similar goals to what LOTR did: attempting to make the franchise "bigger & better", but many fail in this regard because they either didn't fully understand the meaning and impact of the previous work or didn't know when to stop. Anyways, that's my whole take on this but I do feel the idea itself could work on another setting with its own history and lore, if its possible.
This is an excellent and well written video. I really love that so much of your stuff focuses on the darker side of the legendarium. It's a good niche for you to fill in an internet flooded with content about the same old topics and lends itself to your visually darker production style.
Great video once again! I'm glad Tolkien didn't go ahead with this story, for the reasons you mention (the finality of the victory at the end of LOTR, how depressing it would be, etc.). I also like to think it's better to leave the Fourth Age as a mystery, since it's meant to be the time-period bridging Middle-Earth's early history with our own time.
Perhaps the stories of the fourth age could not compare to those stories of earlier ages? It could have been some shift to the less fantastical. I agree with another comment though, I wish the Second Age was a bit more in-depth!
I don't agree with keeping it a mystery, but I do agree with it being the bridge between Tolkien's mythical "prehistory" and our own primary world. I hadn't considered what that meant before this video, but the diminution from EPIC tales of Elves and Demons etc. etc. to the more "realistic" tales of the interior evil Men carry with them, is a perfect transition for that motif.
Great overview and analysis of this short work. I wasn't aware of it but it feels like those brief 12 pages contain some truths about the heart of man.
I would have brought saruman back. His spirit found its way into the depths of what was formerly angband, and took possession of one of morgoth’s monstrosities that he was working on unleashing in the first age but did not reach maturity right before he was captured and tossed into the void. Saruman’s spirit merged with this creature, thus animating it. He starts to replenish an underground orc army that has been growing for hundreds of years. With Gandalf and the elves gone and dwarven numbers dwindling, it would be up to men alone to find a way to stop him. Would the valar react and how so?
I had a similar fanfiction, only with the Nazgul coming back, and the Dark Tree having the capacity to do great and dark magics at the expense of human sacrifice, and that it would regrow even when chopped back down, and that it would drive someone mad to touch or try to chop the tree down. the Dark tree could even be very old given it would always regrow, thus it would have deep and wide roots. It may in earlier times grew into parts of Valinor, forming cracks in the Halls of Mandos, and thus allow the dead a passage back to life, but at a terrible cost of human sacrifice. Mandos could even not know of this because the Dark tree could be crucial to the event of Dagor Dagorath and thus details of the end times are unknown to Mandos thus the roots of the dark tree in Valinor would persist, only being discovered when the dark magic would reincarnate the Nazgul to become their own masters and try to lead the age of men into darkness. But that's just me, let me know what you think of it and your thoughts. Others welcome to!!!
Love to see a fourth age film in middle earth that talks about the days of peace but also wraps up the battles in the sea of rhun with the harad, as well as the feeling of magical elements in middle earth and briefly touch on the cult of the new shadow. Think it could be a really interesting one shot three hour film, maybe follow Aragorn‘s grandson. Could also touch on the remaining orks as well as what makes an orc and orc and at what point do we become so vile that we are no better than orcs ?
A wall of text, I'm sorry. I am so glad The Algorithm finally let me see your channel! I love your deep dive into Tolkien. Tolkien's impetus to create The Lord of the Rings was his lament that his Native Islands didn't have a wholesome legend. Yes, there was Arthur but he really wanted more than that, something akin to the Norse mythology and I gather from reading his notes, leading up to Christianity. I really respect your perspective on the Ring of Morgoth because it should carry into this video's topic. The idea is that there is a fell element to Arda that can not be removed without its destruction and Men are tithed almost to Middle Earth, diminishing as they rise so to speak, with some unknown fate; in Tolkien's world it seems that existence is a zero-sum game: my opinion of course. I think he really was out of worthy ideas after the Silmarillion because his whole purpose was to provide a legendarium, a backstory, rather than a prophecy. I am fascinated by the intermix between magic and technology and each authors' way of handling the boundaries. With Tolkien it was Sauron and Saruman (Aule was outside Middle Earth) that bent the world into technology. I wonder if he thought that the future of Men was just his daily life, a tale not worth telling. Other authors have gone much farther and begin to make technology magical. I don't think Tolkien had the appetite for the overtly industrial world but preferred a world where industry and Nature could coexist, hence the Scouring of the Shire. I believe that most of the fans of Tolkien's work have a fond affinity of the past and rue the present while fearing the future. Of course that's my opinion. However, other genres see Men as creators of their successors, artificial-life, -intelligence, and the domains that we will never know. It's a sobering thought and I don't know, but doubt, if he ever thought of it. He was certainly the contemporary of pillars of modern thought, such as Russell, Turing, and Einstein. I wonder if he simply didn't want to wander into the world of science? As a materialist, I see our cultural past as a construct of what we want to believe our foundations were but it takes courage to face the unknown and realize that the best tales are yet to be told.
I'm not American and I couldn't read and understand all your text. I really agree with the little information I could get with your text. I would appreciate if you could sum up the main idea of your comment, so I could just drop it on Google translator, lol
@@Jimmy_Mcgill_ I am so sorry for my long post and thank you for trying to read it. Tolkien stated that he wanted to create a legend for Britain's mythical past. His stories deal with the creation of the world and its permanent corruption by Melkor. Tolkien loved unspoiled nature in real life and seemed to portray technology as evil or at least corrupting. I don't believe he wanted to write a story about the world after magic had left it. I see the future of real humans as creators of new species and thinking machines, which resembles magic but Tolkien probably wouldn't like to tell that kind of story.
I always felt the fact that Tolkien didn't write more of this story is very tragic. The setup is tantalizing and seems to foreshadow a truly compelling story.
I've read many thoughts from people who wish he wrote more and from others who are glad he didn't. Both make good cases. I think this story would have been quite different but really intriguing. Seems really character driven.
I think Tolkien didn't write this for the same reason C.S. Lewis never wrote more than an essay as Screwtape again. He simply found it spiritually oppressive.
I understand that, but at the same time a story about facing and fighting the inner evils alongside your fellow men has the same potential for inspiring nobility and the triumph of good against all odds as facing a Dark Lord in a war. It's the same battle really, just fought in the psyche instead of on the fields.
Personally i think Tolkien could have further breached the gap between mythology and reality. If i remember correctly, he envisioned his stories as pre-iceage-history of earth, of civilizations long before ours, and times in which magic and magical beeings have not yet departed from the world. (sort of a story he just came into possession of, and then translated) The further you go through his timeline, the less supernatural events occure, so it all slowly transitions into the strictly natural world we observe today. It seems to me, that he had this in mind, when he wrote "The new Shadow", since things like orcs, or the epic struggle against Sauron seem to be mostly forgotten and mythologized. It would be interesting to see people in the familiar places of Gondor, Erebor or the Shire, slowly forgetting that those events really happened, and living in a world, that resembles our own more and more. But to be honest, i don´t think you can pull this a mere hundred years or so after the events, given that the known history even just for man reaches thousands of years into the past.
There's an old adage that says, "we don't see the world as it is, but as we are", and this is absolutely true for Tolkien. He's never hid his contempt for humans, and it's cringe. Evil isn't "inherent" in us as a people, we aren't discontented in times of peace just because that's who we are. Plenty of civilizations have managed to live well in harmony with the land and each other in times of peace. He just didn't belong to one, and that letter came across to me as "no war, no point". There could have been countless stories about conflict and growth during this age, but he had no interest. He could write about dwarves, elves, orcs, frickin anyone but his own. He couldn't write on the age of man because he knew nothing of them, and never cared to learn.
It comes from his Christianity. I do love the books, and love what they did for the High Fantasy genre, but it's clear to see that the world he made is a Christian allegory. Even if he's said that he doesn't care for allegory.
That phrase of Tolkien's noting humankind's "quick satiety with good" is poignant and profound. Once I matured enough to understand the complex ramifications of it I see the truth of it everywhere.
Just a wild thought as I hear about this unfinished idea Tolkien had, but what if this book was actually supposed to lead to Dagor Dagoroth with the dark tree and the cults mentioned actually Morgoth returning, having somehow escaped imprisonment without anyone knowing. Or at least the cults are actually the descendants of those Sauron convinced to start worshipping Morgoth. If either idea was mentioned to be part of this, my apologies for missing that part.
Interesting to imagine that even Lord of the Rings have it's own "Boruto" story, with the point of view from a descendant of one of the main heroes. I like to imagine Tolkien wrote this story after seeing what the youth of Britain was becoming after World War Two. Just for comparison, A Clockwork Orange was published in 1962, and Tolkien commented on the New Shadow in 1964.
If a new story came set just a few hundred years later it wouldve completely made everything the hero’s of lotr feel pointless and wasted. When the sequels were released to star wars that exactly what happened. It made the hero’s acts and victories feel pointless and lesser. A sequel to lotr would have to have been set far later in the timeline in order to not take away from the feeling of victory of defeating sauron. Had a replacement stepped forward for sauron very suddenly it would simply make lotr feel depressing and hopeless
It's a shame this idea was never really explored by Tolkien. As much as I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, I actually some of his side stories far more, particularly the Children of Hurin. If approached from a similar angle perhaps he would have been more interested in the idea. I don't think it would be very palatable as a direct sequel to the Lord of the Rings, but if it was just treated as a part of the overall history of the world, not anymore a sequel than The Ley of Beren and Luthien is a prequel, but just an isolated snippet of Middle-Earth, that might have been palatable. All is hypothetical regardless. Thanks for the video, gonna binging this channel for sure.
I think your point about it being less of a sequel is a good one. It's a bit like The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The latter being written as the follow-up but they seem so different in scope and style. I never see The Lord of the Rings as a "sequel" to The Hobbit. The New Shadow could have been something similar. A snippet as you say. Thanks!
the evil within Men is so far more terrifying than a lord of evil. As great as Morgoth and Sauron were, they could be defeated, even permanently destroyed but you can't defeat your own nature. In a way, they are easier to fight.
A Lord of evil can be destroyed, but Men's evil can't. This would be a good main idea for New Shadow, but I agree that this would be bad continuation for the good and happy ending from LotR.
This inherent evil is the result of Melkor putting much of his own power, his own essence into everything in the world, in order to corrupt it. So in Tolkiens world, there never can be a final victory over evil, until the entire world is desroyed and renewed... which would be very hard to write about.
@@captainfighter7666 that might be true but what within the nature of Melkor made him bad in the first place? Could it be that whatever caused him to be that way could also be within humans too? Or on a more fundamental level that whatever caused Melkor to become the way he was already existed and is in all living beings but only in humans is it able to come out as easily?
Great video as always man, but if I'm not wrong the story continues a little bit after Saelon and Borlas conversation... absolutely intriguing and grim how it "ends". Unfortunately, what ideas were in Tolkien' s mind regarding this continuation we will never know...
Lord of the rings and everything that came from it was pretty much perfect a perfect story world fantasy and it ended in such a good way it’s hard to continue that masterpiece or start a new one
I first read this in high school after I went through the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and LOTR. I thought it was dark and gritty. I wished he continue it but at the same time I thought it was so messed up that in just a short time ( in the general scheme of things), men were already failing. I'd like to think that this story would eventually lead to the downfall of men and the world would be more or less a sort of dark ages, much like after the fall of the Roman Empire or more drastically, the Bronze Age Collapse. Superstition about elves, dwarves and other races, death everywhere, and just general despair in Arda. Maybe even Orcs and other creatures running around.
I forget which wiseman it was, but one or another of them warned that we are never more than one generation away from forgetting everything that ought not be forgotten.
there is a lot to work with for a sequel for villains cults, man of the east, nameless things from the deep and shelob and her children. just to name a few.
All the Tolkien works seem to lead towards degeneration over the ages, similar to Vedic belief. The first age is incomprehensibly different to the third age: more cosmic, fantastic and magical. Contrast that with the second age, third age and beyond where the world becomes increasingly mundane. I don't think the story comes full circle with Morgoth returning. That seems very at odds with the overarching direction of the Tolkien world where gradually the power held on either side, good and evil, are stunted. Despite the prophecy, I think Morgoth is simply gone, like Ungoliant, just gone. And didn't Tolkien say that these works could be seen as a mythology, almost as if they could be the history of Earth so many thousands of years ago? It makes sense then that the fourth age would be full of political intrigue and nihilism. Maybe Tolkien saw too much of the modern world in it and it was no longer really fantasy. Maybe that's just the end of the mythology, except rather than one huge moment to signal the end, there's the huge bang of the ring being destroyed and then it just fizzles off...
I don't think the story is supposed to go "full circle", Arda, the first world was flawed because of Morgoth, the second world is supposed to be more beautiful and perfect because thoses flaws would be corrected and all the Free Peoples are supposed to participate in the second Great Music, even the beings that were not Eru Childrens like the Dwarfs.
Evil could not ever be removed from Middle-Earth. Morgoth was infused in to the land and I guess people and could never be removed. It could be controlled by forever being vigilant... Shucks, you taught me that.
Yes, those beings who rely on the matter of Arda for their very lives are themselves tainted by the stain of Morgoth. It is up to each individual to stay on the true path, and in the case of Men, they can be free of it when they leave the world. Elves and the Ainur will have to wait!
Also, is said that morgoth was making part in the creation of Arda with Iluvatar and the other valar, maybe the stain of bad in men and the trend to dark lords appear to threaten the free fowks is part of the nature of Arda, due to morgoth influence in its creation. Maybe in the other Ages of Sun other Dark lords appear to threaten the world, making a cicle of destruction and reconstruction. Idk, but this idea seems interesting and a little sad to me.
You wonder how this would have turned out?It's funny to think that a dark fantasy type of novel about Intrigue and conspiracy could have appeared decades before that other fantasy author with the middle initials R.R ended up doing it
I think that there was definitely another epic waiting within some of the New Shadow's concepts and characters. Still, I think it makes sense that he sat this one down. It might just be a footnote, but it's a cool footnote. In some ways there's a bit of a similarity to WW2, with the first World War being called "The War to End All Wars" only for its aftereffects and lingering issues in the world to lead to WW2 only a couple decades later.
The evil Morgoth planted in men at their creation being his means for return to Middle Earth and the Dagor Dagorath sounds like such a cool idea. On a side note, if the Sun and Moon were to be destroyed in this final war, I wonder how the fates of men would tie into that
It would be interesting to see this story continue into our future, after the fall of man, by our own hands, back to a more primitive state with the darkness returning and even Dwarves and Elves awakening and returning to these shores to heal the world.
I am sort of in two minds.:) I generally dislike sequels, especially the ones you weren't initially intending to write (The Lord of the Rings is an exception, ha-ha) for the very reason Tolkien thought it wasn't worth it: nothing really new or valuable added. I have no doubt, though, that it would have been very intriguing to read about internal struggles of men in the world they inherited, and I totally agree that Tolkien's ability to write about dark things is way underrated, but it would have been much more local and mundane. I prefer Tolkien as he is, with all mysteries and unanswered questions.
I am of a similar mindset. I like the mysteries and unanswered questions. I don't know why people want to make up things to fill in all the gaps. The mysteries make it more interesting.
Professor Tolkien hints at the darkness in the hearts of men. Isildur, for all his virtue and might couldn’t resist the temptation of the ring. In the appendix after Thorongil goes south than east, he explored the hearts of men. What do you think he found?
Tolkien became close friends with and later led C.S. Lewis to Christ. They were in writing group together and often shared their stories and got feedback from one another. This story reminds me of Lewis' third book in his space series, That Horrible Strength. If you are looking for a good read, I would encourage reading all three.
The New Shadow to me almost sound extremely similar to that of the Synagogue of Satan in Revelations who will rule alongside the Antichrist in the days of the Tribulation. This sounds like something that could of been interesting to have around before Dagor Dagorath when Morgoth returns.
Personally, I prefer to leave Dagor Dagorath somewhat ambiguous. That maybe it's just what the Elves believe, and not nessicarily what WILL happen, but what COULD happen.
@@sgauden02 Yeah "could" is interesting. Though I would like to picture a Tolkien version of the Antichrist to appear in my head that would leave humanity in immoral ruin.
Yes, I mention that briefly in the video. Despite it taking place in the Fourth Age, which would be way before any End of the World scenario, I still like it as a sign of what could lead to the end. Darkness creeping into the world again through the hearts of men who may have abandoned the Gods or been abandoned...
In a way I am happy tolkien didn't finished his story: the new shadow For me a dark thriller just wouldn't fit in his world ( specially in that time of age ) In the fourth age most "magic" is gone or disappearing, it seems that at some point they just would be going into a mid evil setting with the focus on humans and not the mythology that created the world or used to inhabit it Did love the video, looking forward to the next one!
Thanks, Montie, and yes that seems to be a common response - the idea that it may not have fit or just may not have been right to do. I still find that idea really intriguing, it would be such a different story but still set within Middle-earth at a time of "dying magic". So many possibilities, but I suppose that magic is what makes the rest of the Legendarium so engaging as well. The story may have introduced more negatives than positives into the mythology.
Cool video. I think the mouth of sauron would have made a good villain for the new Shadow a story about evil cults of magic would be a good fit for he's character
I'm torn on The New Shadow. On the one hand, a dark political thriller set in the Forth Age is a really intriguing idea. And I think Tolkien would have done a good job with it, had he felt inspired to pursue it. But on the other hand, it _would_ be really depressing. LotR does end on a pretty high note, so having a sequel go, "and it all started to fall apart about a generation or so later" is incredibly depressing. And reality is depressing enough; no need to make fantasy emulate it.
I too am intrigued by 'The New Shadow', but seriously, I think Tolkien had so many balls in the air with his legendarium, I can quite understand why Tolkien wouldn't want to carry on with it, even if he didn't like the ideas of Thrillers in the first place. I'd rather he'd returned to 'The Notion Club Papers', completed at least some of the stories from 'The Silmarillion or even begun working on the voyages of Eärendil which might have rounded it off. Having said that, it could have been a great book in its own right, emphasizing that "Happy Ever After" doesn't really exist. I'm reminded of the last part of George MacDonald's Curdie books, 'The Princess and the Goblin' and 'The Princess and Curdie', both of which Tolkien was certainly familiar with, and may have inspired some of the legendarium. Here, Curdie and Princess Irene both defeat the Goblins and marry, and Curdie becomes king. However they have no children, and the next king through greed destroys the castle and city such that all remains are "a wilderness of wild deer". I suspect Tolkien could see something similar one day for Gondor and Arnor, which is of course rather depressing.
I like to think that this sequel the evil cult leader was the Mouth of Sauron. Maybe due to long lifespan being numinorian and lifespan further extended by dark power. Hes getting ready for the return of Melkor. It would make sense he would be a threat though hes much less powerful than Sauron who was in return much less powerful than Melkor. So were the forces of good who fought against them. Godlike beings faught against Melkor and his dragons larger than moutains. Elves and maiar wizard angels, and ents etc helped fight against Sauron. Seems like only men would be left to fight agaisnt The dark lord Mouth of Sauron and his orcs and corrupted easterlings left over from Aragorns taiming of middle earth. Their war could take place more in the shadows anyways. After centuries of peace humans are unprepaired and would be great if they fail, The mouth suceeds in opening the gate to the Void and Degor Dagarath happens. Melkor and a leagon of nameless things invade. Only for the Valar to come and destroy all evil, and Eru to restart the earth. It would of been cool if the other continants would of been explored in this story. I want to know whats going on in the dark land and where the blue wizards are at god damnit!
Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.
Personally my biggest question of LOTR is who took Saurons helmet ? I’d like to think a Cult took it and worship it and the leader specks as if it specks to him tell him what to do.
Edit anyway 🤣: Did you know that Herumor is mentioned once in the Silmarillion in the part "Of the Rings of Power and..."? Original post: I leave this for the algorithm (I don't always have elaborate thoughts to share, and I very much appreciate how you are willing to discuss with others here)
Hello again, and yes, he is associated with Fuinur. I was going to mention this briefly in the video, but I didn't know if it was relevant. It is strange that it is the same name that is used. Do you think Herumor is a figure in the Fourth Age, or that the legend of that figure from the Second Age is what these Men are talking about?
@@TheRedBook I have no idea if it's the same person but it seems possible. I am more sure though that he wanted to refer to a dark role model, a ruler of man who ascended in power because (or so he thought) he submitted to a dark overlord.
@@Crafty_Spirit - Yes, I think the idea of him being a man they look up to, and a man who willingly submitted to "the dark" is a good one. I'm sure some out there will end up believing he was a Ringwraith or something haha.
You know I think ultimately it was WW2 that stopped him from doing so he probably thought of the 1st WW and the idea of it being the war to end all wars and how 20 years later it happened again he probably knew at that point it'll never end and ultimately became saddened by the realization.
I'm sure tolkien could have come up with some kind of external force of evil. the orcs were still around werent they? what about the undead in the hills? I always imagined that someday the orcs would learn how to make primitive guns that would make them a big threat again.
He probably could have come up with an external force of evil if he wanted to but it was important that at this time it wasn't about the external forces - it was about man himself having to defeat the evil within.
The orcs didn’t have any will to exist without Sauron and Morgoth. They only did anything because of the control of the two and without the two probably would’ve went extinct. Not to mention they’d probably get completely destroyed out of existence after Sauron died by men to avoid them being a problem again ever.
I am not getting political here & I do understand that I am oversimplifying, but I am taking a bit of license to make a comparison: After decades of effort the USSR fell in 1990 & the West emerged bruised but victorious. But without an external enemy to contend with, we have made an enemy of ourselves.
I think there is merit in telling stories that show the eternal struggle that follows the happy ending. I think it could have worked had it maybe been a bit more removed from the end of LOTRs, and while a thriller with intrigue would have been interesting, the more interesting part for me would be the demonstration of the futility of evil, as good will always rise to face it, showing that not only will evil ultimately doom itself in the end (as with Golem), but also that it will never be able to overcome good while good is there to oppose it. While evil might never be defeated until the end of the world, neither will good ever be defeated makes me think about Tad Williams work, as a reconstruction of post-Tolkien fantasy, with how a sequel series to one of his addresses many of the same issues raised here and takes it a step further. Characters flawed by complacency faced with the return of the old evils their forbears repelled in their youth, and how while they might be ill equipped they are still willing to fight
Aragorn reigned for 120+ yr. Surely the events in the New Shadow weren't immediately after his death, so anyone in the story who remembers the War of the Ring would have to be very old indeed. It is unreasonable that only those who were alive at the time would remember the events of the War of the Ring. Instead, it must be much longer removed from LotR, such as a several centuries. Then, it is not those who witnessed the events first-hand that would remember, but rather those who families diligently taught their children in each generation to honor the deeds of the past. I feel that element fits well with the the other themes in Tolkien's writings.
We as humans have already on most levels forgotten WW1 and that was merely a century ago AND we have better education than you’d expect in a less sophisticated society. It’s not all that unlikely that barely over a century later lots of humans would’ve forgotten the struggle completely
I think Tolkien had a Biblical view of men and mankind, created in God's image, yet capable of evil on an epic scale. I am glad he bailed on that story when he realized how dark it would be. A righteous decision, IMO.
@@hydradominatus3641 Exactly. That is why I hate what-if videos that end with the Valar having to intervene in the Fourth Age to save the world. Or saying any of the heroes, other than Boromir dies. With so much actual lore to cover, why do RUclipsrs' subs insist on them making what-if videos they have to know will end badly in most cases? And why don't those RUclipsrs make an effort to create a good ending? Because that would require a belief that Eru is ultimately in control of the outcome and will provide a way.
@@hydradominatus3641 You obviously misunderstood what I wrote. How you could read my original post and actually think I was an atheist is beyond me. You are the first person in my life to ever accuse of being "woke." I had to reread what I wrote several times to figure out how you came to your conclusion. Maybe you thought I said God is capable of great evil. NO. Mankind is capable of great evil.
He was Christian becouse he had to be his work is based on Pegan mythology together with Jesus who you see in Frodo(a lot of people see nothing Abrahamic in Jesus who would never suport christianity). 4 ages is Pegan concept find all over the world, hirarchy and importance of blood, reincarnation, etc. Its funy to me how Christians still belive this bs even with the many Gods he created and all that i stated... 4 age will become darker and darker with less nobility and curage, degredation of humanity, less power full people but they will suport evil in bigger numbers(man wil) untill god come to earth at the end when there is no solution anymore and win battle and restore golden age again, majority of people would die.
I assume this story would have been about Melkor's return and thus events leading up to Dagor Dagorath. And if this is the case, maybe Tolkien was uncomfortable righting something echoing the New Testaments' Revelation?
I also have to wonder because he does say that the plot would be thwarted, how much fun it would be to follow the new generations struggle with the legacy of the world they inherit, and the deep distance from the mythology that they are leaving behind by progressing into an ever more mundane and mortal world. You could have well meaning characters get wrapped up in a world of magic and fantasy because of tales of heroes of old with connections to elves and other legendary figures like wizards and dragonslayers, but this magic and intrigue, well it comes from evil influence, and slowly corrupts them, or it corrupts friends and family because of this morgoth cults potential to manipulate, dominate, or tempt the characters to escape fate.
It seems like Tolkien wanted to speak more about the fall of principles and the fall of prudence which man is prone to do, perhaps The New Shadow of the 4th age is about the very nature of man in a huge regard and that the newest Dark force being fostered out of the falling vigilance of the lessons learned in the 3rd age by the Kingdoms of man, perhaps a new dark lord might have taken shape that works in the very shadow itself, born of the ignorance of man he became the lord of the unknown rings, figurative rings being manipulation of circumstance and omission of truth etc... to cheesey maybe, lol ok, enough BS from me, haha.
I think a big problem is the Dark Tree, it's a great idea, but it points to a resolution; the resolution for the evil in man is Christ. Tolkien warned of pointing outside of the story, the logical outcome of this story is a huge point outside the story.
Very good point. I never thought about how such a story would end. It is possible that it would have no "good" resolution and can you imagine that being the final Tolkien tale? Perhaps he was well aware that he couldn't write a positive outcome for The New Shadow.
I always thought that this line from Saruman in the Extended Version of The Return of the King would be a good setup for the next chapter in Middle Earth. "Something festers in the heart of Middle-Earth, something you have not yet seen. But the great eye has seen it" I imagined that Sauron knew that there is some new enemy lurking deep underground that noone has seen. And that he was going to use the Orcs to tunnel down and destroy them. But this never happened becasue Sauron was destoyred and this army's scattered. This new story in Middle-Earth could start in the Fourth Age where people barely remember the past. Tales from far off lands begin reaching Gordor about Huge Holes opening up overnight. Some so large that entire towns are swallowed up by the Earth. And mysterious creatures seen around these holes, Not Orcs....... but something else.
I feel that perhaps Tolkien simply felt he would not live long enough to complete the Fourth Age-as this type of story would _only_ be able to be resolved by the finishing of the Dagor Dagorath in order to purge mens' spirits of the first evil that corrupted them by Melkor.
I think any Fourth Age tale should take place several hundred years after the death of Elessar. Some powerful agent of darkness coming from the East or the South along with some kind of Fifth column in the West. Not all the servants of Morgoth are accounted for. Maglor does not die at the end of the Silmarillion, but throws his Jewell into the sea and wanders off into the East. There are still the two Blue Wizards to account for. Could one or both been corrupted? And of course the question of all questions remains: Where are the Ent-Wives?
@TheRedBook "The race of men, including Hobbits" Can you explain what basis there is to include Hobbits as a variety of men? Is it merely their linguistic affinity with the Rohirim? How would you compare the relationship between men and Hobbits with the relationship between Dwarves and Petty Dwarves? And furthermore, how would you characterize the relationship between Men, Hobbits, and the Drúedain?
Why not create a fanfiction book project based on original idea? Since not written by the oj it might not be literature gold but interesting story nevertheless.
The Hobbit told me the value of a good story. The Lord of the Rings taught me the value of a good sequel. The Silmarillion taught me the value of background lore. The New Shadow taught me the value of ending the story on a high note rather than making unnecessary continuations.
I understand Tolkien's reason for not finishing "The New Shadow", but I find the setup to the story to be very interesting. It could've been like a reverse Lord Of The Rings story where the moral is that evil can never TRULY be destroyed, and if left unwatched, and unattended, it will grow again.
Yes, that's what he means with this Dark Tree, if it is not maintained and looked after, it will grow, and it will spread further from root to leaf. I think it's a very interesting concept!
@@TheRedBook By the way, what picture is that at 11:50?
It should say in the corner. I reference all the images I use.
@@TheRedBook Thanks. I got it.
This is like the anger of the numenorians against the Valor. Only in reverse uno
The reason why Tolkien didn't like Dune I believe has it's roots in why he didn't feel the New Shadow was worth delving into. A comment I quite liked that I've heard about it is that Tolkien was much more idealistic, while Herbert was more pragmatic. Tolkien read hundred of pages of Dune only to be told lessons he had learned already in WW1, what humans do to survive. Tolkien's world of middle earth is almost a healing process for him after what he whitnessed what his fellow man can do in desperation.
We needed Tolkien to have the life expectancy of a Numenorean, the man just ran outta time.
Seems like he ran out of willingness to write something he didn't like. Where does one go after the defeat of someone like Sauron. It would be like Marvel s fourth phase
@@yurikendal4868 Sauron being defeated was a joyus occasion, but going from that to a new evil makes you depressed. It makes it feel like everything that people worked so hard for during the events of Lord of The Rings was all for nothing.
But it is also realistic. Evil is not so easily eradicated just because you remove a evil tyrant.
@@Greendalewitch very true. Not sure if Tolkien wanted to write about that. Where does one go from something like lord of the rings?
@@yurikendal4868 Write a story about Dagor Dagorath?
@@Greendalewitch not that would have been interesting. He debated about writing that or not. The fourth age seemed to be about technology creeping in. Could such an event happened in such a setting?
The New Shadow teaches how important to maintain Vigilance even in times of Peace, as the Forth Age Progresses as the Elves and Dwarves fade and Men grew complacent and corrupt until it reaches its climax at Dagor Dagorath with Melkor/Morgoth as the secret Antagonist.
I think Tolkien found it depressing because it is. It's too close to reality in which we as humans are never satisfied and develop ideas which often become destructive. Or like the saying hard times create hard men, while easy times create weak men.
@@AdrGeaMarWeb thanks for saying easy in place of good. Easy doesn't equal good.
This was actually brought up in Wheel of time as well in the end which I loved Very interesting perspective where the dark one shows the book’s protagonist a world without strife or chaos or any trouble whatsoever and it actually proved evil in itself because people became complacent uncaring unworried When humanity faces this they don’t have ambitions nothing to strive for nothing to prove and ultimately nothing to live for
@@chasebrammer851 that’s absolutely true and it confirms the religious defense against what some atheist philosophers dub “the problem of evil” for how can humanity ever enjoy the good if they have never experienced evil. Both good and evil are two sides of the same coin.
"It is the Doom of men that they forget." -Merlin 'Excalibur'
What you said toward the end is almost exactly what I was thinking:
"I find it even more interesting that the greatest threat to Man shifts from the source of evil, to his greatest servant, and then to an internal struggle. It has shifted from personifications of evil, great, almost cosmic incomprehensible figures, to a look within, to the hearts of Men. Possibly an even more terrifying prospect since such an enemy may be impossible to defeat. No longer would a Dark Lord halt the progress of man, and Man would have to deal with his own nature."
Perhaps Tolkien felt that that was too close to home, too close to real life, and how would such an evil be vanquished or dealt with if not by fantastical struggle and war? I also think his heart was in the Shire and Elvendom, not in Gondor, and at his age he was ready to rest, besides a little dabbling, and be satisfied with the triumph of his works.
I agree, though, that stories about the 4th Age, about Man's struggles within itself, with a dash of fantasy, would have been fun to read. And Tolkien's insights into human nature and the soul of Men I'm sure would have been profound and engaging.
It's interesting to think that Tolkien's own beliefs may have interfered here. The New Shadow really seems like a story of overcoming sin. Perhaps he thought it would be too difficult to come to a conclusion for this story without it working against what he would see as the human eucatastrophe. How does he get the race of Men to overcome sin without the incarnation of God on earth? I wonder if these sorts of thoughts plagued him when writing this.
@The Red Book I can see that, yes. Because wasn't Tolkien's creation of Middle Earth supposed to be the British answer to the fables and legends that other countries had and that Britain lacked? And wasn't it supposed to be a sort of pre-history of our own time? Also, Tolkien was a devout Christian as far as I know, so there's that factor as well. Gandalf was definitely a Christ-like figure. And, lastly, I think that Tolkien was perplexed with, and maybe slightly in despair of, the nature of mankind, having been in war himself and having seen, and despised, the darker, industrial/violent side of men.
I think Tolkien's works came not just from the passion to create a world for new languages, art, cultures, and histories but also a desire to create a world he had control over and could demonstrate his conviction and belief in good and light and redemption, and ultimately the repudiation of darkness and evil. I think it was therapeutic for him'; a way to exorcise his demons and to affirm his ethics and values. After vanquishing Sauron it would then seem a bit demoralizing to have to then dive back again into mankind's stubborn insistence on being 'bored' with a good life and dabbling in dark matters for entertainment. Is this something that is simply an intrinsic part of man's nature? Is there hope for mankind? That's a huge, huge question to tackle.
@@dreemdazer i always said to myself, if tolkien is represented anywhere in his stories, it would undoubtably be with the elves or in hobbiton, where gandallf himself spends a lot of time talking to a certain, Tom Bombadil ;)
OR if another aspect were to become very true, if it isn't already: tolkiens races, the world, are all aspects of the nature of mankind... Tolkien the creator, is at the core of EVERY aspect... meaning essentially, he is the creator... the one who is, the god jehova, is called I AM.. and what is the answer when frodo asks: who is tom bombadil??
.... Though he's not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit, Tolkien's world is presided over by a God known as Eru Illuvatar. This primordial entity shares many traits with the monotheistic gods of the real world, and was responsible for creating all life with the help of his first children, the Ainur.
So who is tom bombadil - his own wife answer's frodo, with the words: "he is" ... in tolkiens world there's no such words without meaning ;) if you ask me tom is tolkien, and tom is eru in disguise... because... he is stronger than sauron, he is stronger than the corruption of morgoth/ melkor... proven, because he puts on THE ONE RING... and is entirely uneffected... even gandalf himself... in the books... WOULDN'T even touch the one ring, because he did not want to be tempted :)
So... my conclusion is: he is all and he is none, center of all creation and the very source of life and light itself ...
Eru Illuvatar ... but no tolkien is not eru... cause that would be calling yourself god... which would be blasphemy, but Eru is his interpretation of the one god.. therefore Eru bears his "mark" so to speak ;)
Gandalf is a Maiar, and bears the flame of annor, and the "secret fire" which is the will of eru, he is a messenger and a bringer of hope.. he is the "angel sent" to save the realm from eternal darkness. and tom is stronger? therefore either a valar or... even more than.. because morgoth was a valar, the first darklord and the strongest... of all the valar .... and that means.. tom is not. and since uneffected by the ring when he wears it.... he can even see others WEARING IT.. he cannot be a valar unless he is morgoth aka... melkor.. Melkor (Quenya; "He who arises in might"),
predominantly known as Morgoth (Sindarin; "Black Foe of the World")
some say tom could be the last remnant of good inside the first of the darklords.. i doubt it though.. cause he NEVER "rises in might" he just... IS... in danish 'tom', means empty, and in old norse, 'Ek Eru' means: I AM - Eru meaning: to be, is or am..
but in a manner of speaking, as you also say yourself, tolkien is, the creator of THIS world... Therefore, it is not so far fetched to say: Eru illuvatar - 'he is'.
@@TheRedBook There was a section of the Unfinished Tales where a human woman and an elf debated on the nature of the soul, of what lies beyond death, the metaphysical differences between the two races, and of course, humanity's belief on their own lifespans. What is interesting is that it opens up that humans believe that they were once immortal like elves before being tainted (sound like a familiar story?), and the fact that it was heavily implied that the First Age humans did believed in a messianic figure
Its amazing how few people know about this. My brother took college courses on Tolkien and LOTR, he was a Theology major at Boston College and his mentor was Peter Kreeft, a Tolkien expert who actually was brought in to help with the movies and had never heard of it. I think the new shadow is a story exploring a very important aspect of human nature we need to confront. If I were him I might have started a story set in a new story universe about these themes. I think we are seeing the byproducts of this in part of human nature in the world today.. Discovering about this story actually has inspired me to take up writing again. I'm not working on a LOTR sequel but my own story universe that will explore this idea that times of peace and prosperity lead to discontent and growing evil. The working title of my novel is "A Watchman on the Wall"
If you haven't read it, there's a superb text called The Politics of Cultural Discontent, which explores what goes wrong in cultures. It's a study of three writers in pre-Nazi Germany and very thought provoking.
If Tolkien started another universe he would need an entire second lifetime to make it possible, lol. He would have surgically constructed new languages and cultures.
When you finish let me know as it sounds intriguing and I would love to read it as a fellow amateur writer myself.
I read "The New Shadow" when "The Peoples of Middle-Earth" was newly published, and *I* thought it was terrific. It made perfect sense, and read more easily than anything since "The Hobbit." Tolkien may not have enjoyed writing this kind of material, to be sure, and abandoned it because he didn't like what it did to him. But as you say, that doesn't mean that he couldn't do it.
Agreed. It's too intriguing to ignore even if I understand the reasons for not continuing. As I said in another comment, it seems it would be very character driven, and Tolkien would excel in writing about the darkness in the heart of man
"I was there when the strength of men failed"
Excellent. I'm one of those who found LoTR in my teens, devoured it in days, and then looked around for a sequel only to discover there was none. So I was excited when Unfinished Tales hinted that there might have been more to come. Despite all of Christopher Tolkien's labours, 50 years later I still wish for the sequel. Equally, however, I recognise that fulfillment of that wish might only lead to disappointment. Seems Tolkien feared the same thing. I have seen several of your fellow RUclipsrs tackle this subject. You explain it better than any of them.
Thanks, Andrew, I kind of noticed they had covered it after I had recorded the video..so I was hoping it wasn't just repeating what they had already said!
And I agree with your thoughts. Part of me really wishes there was more, but the fact Tolkien wasn't invested in it means it could have been disastrous. Maybe it is better that we just imagine it?
@@TheRedBook - I wish he had written more to fill in the 5,000+ years between the War of Wrath and the Quest of Erabor, since the Appendices read like encyclopedia articles.
As for the 4th Age, who really wants to read about the disappearance of the elves, dwarves, ents, and hobbits (but the latter might have lasted into the 5th or 6th Ages)?
@@tominiowa2513 dwarves were still around.
The New Shadow is a Perfect portrayal of Arda-Marred and How it must be destroyed to restore the New order of the World.
Thanks for another video, waiting for more😉
These are the reasons I think there was great potential. A real examination of the race of Men.
That’s a very twisted Lurianic take.
I feel like The New Shadow was initially born out of a desire for Tolkein to continue illustrating the human condition. As many of us know, Tolkein was a devout Catholic and portayed many biblical ideas, principles, and stories within his world. The most telling is the story of a creation that finds itself imbattled with a sinister evil that wishes to dominate it for himself, and to cause as much hurt to Ilu-Vatar (God) as he possibly can. That is a direct parallel of the conflict between God and Satan, and how humanity has been the focus of such a battle.
Initially, I can see how The New Shadow would have certainly downplayed the victory in LOTR, but, I think it would have only been a temporary overshadowing and that his desire to scrap it was more likely out of a fear that he wouldn't have time to finish it; that his great story would end on a sour note instead of a good one... There is a prophecy deep in Tolkein's lore where he says that Morgoth (Sauron's daddy lol) will escape the great void and that there will be a final cataclysmic battle between good and evil, very similar to the Book of Revelation. So, on the other hand, I can see how The New Shadow wouldn't have actually downplayed anything, at least not in the long-term. It makes sense for evil and corruption to continue to be able to thrive until the final defeat of Morgoth, the author of evil. Evil and corruption cannot be defeated until Morgoth himself is defeated for all eternity.
I would have loved for this to have been finished, but, with the passing of Christopher Tolkein, it's doubtful any true LOTR literature will be produced again, internally within the family itself. So, we will likely never see anything come of this.
I donot believe evil would end after morgoths defeat. His evil has touched much of the world for fart too long.
@@thekittenfreakify yeah he probably farted too long during his Discord. Which is probably what may have bothered the Ainur the most
@@LandStrider23 🤣🤣
Interesting but Tolkien himself said he did not like allegory.
Two reasons your channel is unavoidable
1. Your soft reading style, like an ASMR
2. The background dark music adds mystery
You'd perhaps be surprised that every few days I get some comment about terrible narration, volume, or how I'm boring :D . Glad they are in the minority!
@@TheRedBook You're perfect. Please don't change it.
I always found this part of the lore quite interesting. It is a pitty that we will never be able to read a full version of it.
Great video by the way!
Thank you, and yes, I am stuck between wishing we had more of it to read but also accepting it might have been bad based on Tolkien's own reservations. Some seem to be dead against such an idea, and others think it sounds interesting. We are left with less known about the Fourth Age than even the Second.
@@TheRedBook that's true and we sadly have to accept that it will not change and anything which might get published is not more than fanfiction
Nevertheless to a degree I'm happy with not knowing what would have been, so everyone can spin bis own theories
Morgoth was always meant to return based off his earlier set writings, but I’m glad this wasn’t finished and the book to reintroduce him. I think in part Tolkien left it open for the imagination of the reader to decide how that all happens before the Second Song commences.
Honestly even if it was finished I’m sure that Tolkien would’ve done it beautifully. Furthermore, it’s not like we haven’t seen some depressing writing from him *cough* the whole first part of the Silmarillion *cough* and as I stated before Morgoth was always due to return but I think he would’ve preferred it to happen much later since he abandoned this story.
@@nueva681 Well. It is Christopher Tolkien that gathered the source material together and published it in a cohesive narrative, based off pages and pages of notes that his father left behind. It was therefore him ( not Tolkien ) that decided to throw out the idea of Dagor Dagorath, where Morgoth returns, because he thought his father abandoned his story.
However, he later re-introduced the idea of Dagor Dagorath because he said he misunderstood his father intentions. The very last lines in the book The Fall of Gandolin recites the Prophecy of Mandos. This means that Dagor Dagorath is canon again.
Loved the dark music and how you're trying to put us into the twisted story of the occult! I subscribed!
Thanks, a lot :D
Music in video and atmosphere just amazing. Thanks to you
A great video, again. Absolutely facinating, I never knew about this 4th Age idea.
Thank you :) . I highly recommend even finding it online if you don't have Peoples of Middle-earth and give it a read. It's not very long!
I get that he thought it was a depressing type of story to tell. But it seems to me he'd already dealt with such a "depressing" tale re: the overall theme of "the evil of men" (or at least what appears to be an inherent flaw of men) being allowed to corrupt within Middle Earth, as it was something he had already depicted in his tale of the Fall of Numenor.
Numenor was raised at the end of the First Age, a triumphant "victory" over evil/Melkor, and the world again appeared to be at peace (like at the end of the Third Age). Numenor grew in power etc., and later in the Second Age evil again stirs itself, men are corrupted into Melkor worship and Middle Earth is again thrown into violence and turmoil and men are cast down because of their failings.
It seems that The New Shadow could have been a tale about how inherent evil (the Dark Tree) rises again to corrupt men, sort of an echo of what happened in the Second Age when the fruits of the tremendous victory over Melkor in the First Age were ultimately lost due to the stirrings of evil that are inherent to Middle Earth as a result of Melkor's tampering with the original Music.
Except in this case the evil takes the form of Satanistic cults, the orc-play of children (perhaps morphing into something more sinister) etc. As a thriller then, it could depict how those on the side of Good work frantically to fight this new growing evil, maybe coming to a deeper appreciation and understanding of the nature of evil in the world, and in the course of fighting and defeating this New Shadow developing a better sense of how it comes to grow and how to better keep it in check until the world is remade and Melkor's harm ultimately repaired after Dagor Dagorath.
Guess we'll never know.
Well, with all respect to Tolkien, there is the promised “Last Battle” when Morgoth returns.
There easily could have been more stories leading up to, or dealing directly with it. Sauron was never the Great Evil. He only played at it. The greatest struggle was always past him.
I can completely understand why the Armageddon of Middle Earth was something he’d rather leave to the mythic future…but I think I just found the inspiration I was needing to direct my next roleplay campaign.
It's interesting because despite Tolkien "abandoning" it , it seems that this just meant he didn't write more about it, not that it meant he actively removed it from his writings. It's almost like the Last Battle is a myth within the story, a tradition or belief of something that will happen later without Tolkien necessarily saying it would happen.
Even if there could've been ways to 'tweak' the story so that it would've been more faithful to the spirit of the Middle-Earth that the audience has come to know and love, my guess is that it still wouldn't have been enough to justify the existence of "The New Shadow" in this setting, and therefore I think Tolkien made the right choice. TNS would've sort of undermined the achievements of the characters from the previous works (in a sense, including Bilbo himself) and also the message that LOTR gave us through the course of the narrative, which is that the even the smallest person can make the most important difference in the world. I believe that's why the first two works by Tolkien had Hobbits as the protagonists, because they were essentially a representation of the "little men" in our world, those who live the simple life with no ambitions nor complex or grand desires. Another current theme was that a hero wasn't necessarily defined by his great heroic deeds in the moment of truth, but rather shown to have compassion with the smallest acts of kindness that would make the difference in the end, which is ultimately shown to be true with the main example being Gollum, spared by both Bilbo and Frodo, and at the end it was because of his existence alone that the one ring was finally destroyed, not by Frodo chosing to drop it at the moment of truth in the crack of doom. Besides, having evil to rise again just after the events of the last great war against Sauron's forces would also have made the efforts of the previous heroes ultimately 'useless'. And even if that wasn't too much of the case, seeing as how most of what I said is speculation, I felt it would have also been 'repetitive'; with the plot being of dealing with an evil that rested for years only to come back again... yet again (sort of). It kind of would've made for an extremely similar cast of characters as well, and I think that Tolkien, being as he was, wouldn't have wanted that to happen.
At the end of the day, I think that LOTR is essentially a testament on sequels as a whole, given to how Tolkien's masterpiece WAS a 'sequel' to "The Hobbit" and how the author expanded upon the lore and worldbuilding to create something full of life and history of its own, and kept the spirit of the previous work not only intact, but actively improved upon it by creating a timeless story that can resonate with everyone as a whole. I believe that, while the idea IS intriguing, the story would certainly feel like it wouldn't belong in the world of Middle-Earth, beyond just the idea of "changing genres" from epic fantasy to a dark thriller still set in a fantasy setting. Tolkien knowing when to cancel or to stop making a sequel that'd feel 'unnecessary' to the legacy of his Legendarium says a lot about how much he cares and loves the world he created as an author, and part of why his 'Magnum Opus' is a testament to sequels especially today, because sequel works, series or others tend to try to set similar goals to what LOTR did: attempting to make the franchise "bigger & better", but many fail in this regard because they either didn't fully understand the meaning and impact of the previous work or didn't know when to stop.
Anyways, that's my whole take on this but I do feel the idea itself could work on another setting with its own history and lore, if its possible.
lovely 💚
men's hearts are dark
overthrow of our ancestors
This is an excellent and well written video. I really love that so much of your stuff focuses on the darker side of the legendarium. It's a good niche for you to fill in an internet flooded with content about the same old topics and lends itself to your visually darker production style.
It was a happy accident, it seems I just find the darker topics more interesting and keep focusing on them. There's more to say about them :D
Great video once again! I'm glad Tolkien didn't go ahead with this story, for the reasons you mention (the finality of the victory at the end of LOTR, how depressing it would be, etc.). I also like to think it's better to leave the Fourth Age as a mystery, since it's meant to be the time-period bridging Middle-Earth's early history with our own time.
he could've finished the Second Age story though
@@Football0Lover Absolutely. I still yearn for an actual ending to the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, a more complete history of Númenor...
Perhaps the stories of the fourth age could not compare to those stories of earlier ages? It could have been some shift to the less fantastical. I agree with another comment though, I wish the Second Age was a bit more in-depth!
I don't agree with keeping it a mystery, but I do agree with it being the bridge between Tolkien's mythical "prehistory" and our own primary world. I hadn't considered what that meant before this video, but the diminution from EPIC tales of Elves and Demons etc. etc. to the more "realistic" tales of the interior evil Men carry with them, is a perfect transition for that motif.
Great overview and analysis of this short work. I wasn't aware of it but it feels like those brief 12 pages contain some truths about the heart of man.
I would have brought saruman back. His spirit found its way into the depths of what was formerly angband, and took possession of one of morgoth’s monstrosities that he was working on unleashing in the first age but did not reach maturity right before he was captured and tossed into the void. Saruman’s spirit merged with this creature, thus animating it. He starts to replenish an underground orc army that has been growing for hundreds of years. With Gandalf and the elves gone and dwarven numbers dwindling, it would be up to men alone to find a way to stop him. Would the valar react and how so?
I had a similar fanfiction, only with the Nazgul coming back, and the Dark Tree having the capacity to do great and dark magics at the expense of human sacrifice, and that it would regrow even when chopped back down, and that it would drive someone mad to touch or try to chop the tree down. the Dark tree could even be very old given it would always regrow, thus it would have deep and wide roots. It may in earlier times grew into parts of Valinor, forming cracks in the Halls of Mandos, and thus allow the dead a passage back to life, but at a terrible cost of human sacrifice. Mandos could even not know of this because the Dark tree could be crucial to the event of Dagor Dagorath and thus details of the end times are unknown to Mandos thus the roots of the dark tree in Valinor would persist, only being discovered when the dark magic would reincarnate the Nazgul to become their own masters and try to lead the age of men into darkness.
But that's just me, let me know what you think of it and your thoughts. Others welcome to!!!
Love to see a fourth age film in middle earth that talks about the days of peace but also wraps up the battles in the sea of rhun with the harad, as well as the feeling of magical elements in middle earth and briefly touch on the cult of the new shadow. Think it could be a really interesting one shot three hour film, maybe follow Aragorn‘s grandson. Could also touch on the remaining orks as well as what makes an orc and orc and at what point do we become so vile that we are no better than orcs ?
I think that it was a realm Tolkien didn’t have much interest in exploring and as such we should leave it alone too.
A wall of text, I'm sorry.
I am so glad The Algorithm finally let me see your channel! I love your deep dive into Tolkien. Tolkien's impetus to create The Lord of the Rings was his lament that his Native Islands didn't have a wholesome legend. Yes, there was Arthur but he really wanted more than that, something akin to the Norse mythology and I gather from reading his notes, leading up to Christianity. I really respect your perspective on the Ring of Morgoth because it should carry into this video's topic. The idea is that there is a fell element to Arda that can not be removed without its destruction and Men are tithed almost to Middle Earth, diminishing as they rise so to speak, with some unknown fate; in Tolkien's world it seems that existence is a zero-sum game: my opinion of course.
I think he really was out of worthy ideas after the Silmarillion because his whole purpose was to provide a legendarium, a backstory, rather than a prophecy. I am fascinated by the intermix between magic and technology and each authors' way of handling the boundaries. With Tolkien it was Sauron and Saruman (Aule was outside Middle Earth) that bent the world into technology. I wonder if he thought that the future of Men was just his daily life, a tale not worth telling. Other authors have gone much farther and begin to make technology magical. I don't think Tolkien had the appetite for the overtly industrial world but preferred a world where industry and Nature could coexist, hence the Scouring of the Shire.
I believe that most of the fans of Tolkien's work have a fond affinity of the past and rue the present while fearing the future. Of course that's my opinion. However, other genres see Men as creators of their successors, artificial-life, -intelligence, and the domains that we will never know. It's a sobering thought and I don't know, but doubt, if he ever thought of it. He was certainly the contemporary of pillars of modern thought, such as Russell, Turing, and Einstein. I wonder if he simply didn't want to wander into the world of science? As a materialist, I see our cultural past as a construct of what we want to believe our foundations were but it takes courage to face the unknown and realize that the best tales are yet to be told.
I'm not American and I couldn't read and understand all your text. I really agree with the little information I could get with your text. I would appreciate if you could sum up the main idea of your comment, so I could just drop it on Google translator, lol
@@Jimmy_Mcgill_ I am so sorry for my long post and thank you for trying to read it. Tolkien stated that he wanted to create a legend for Britain's mythical past. His stories deal with the creation of the world and its permanent corruption by Melkor. Tolkien loved unspoiled nature in real life and seemed to portray technology as evil or at least corrupting. I don't believe he wanted to write a story about the world after magic had left it. I see the future of real humans as creators of new species and thinking machines, which resembles magic but Tolkien probably wouldn't like to tell that kind of story.
I always felt the fact that Tolkien didn't write more of this story is very tragic. The setup is tantalizing and seems to foreshadow a truly compelling story.
I've read many thoughts from people who wish he wrote more and from others who are glad he didn't. Both make good cases. I think this story would have been quite different but really intriguing. Seems really character driven.
I think Tolkien didn't write this for the same reason C.S. Lewis never wrote more than an essay as Screwtape again. He simply found it spiritually oppressive.
Makes sense
I understand that, but at the same time a story about facing and fighting the inner evils alongside your fellow men has the same potential for inspiring nobility and the triumph of good against all odds as facing a Dark Lord in a war.
It's the same battle really, just fought in the psyche instead of on the fields.
Personally i think Tolkien could have further breached the gap between mythology and reality. If i remember correctly, he envisioned his stories as pre-iceage-history of earth, of civilizations long before ours, and times in which magic and magical beeings have not yet departed from the world. (sort of a story he just came into possession of, and then translated) The further you go through his timeline, the less supernatural events occure, so it all slowly transitions into the strictly natural world we observe today.
It seems to me, that he had this in mind, when he wrote "The new Shadow", since things like orcs, or the epic struggle against Sauron seem to be mostly forgotten and mythologized. It would be interesting to see people in the familiar places of Gondor, Erebor or the Shire, slowly forgetting that those events really happened, and living in a world, that resembles our own more and more. But to be honest, i don´t think you can pull this a mere hundred years or so after the events, given that the known history even just for man reaches thousands of years into the past.
There's an old adage that says, "we don't see the world as it is, but as we are", and this is absolutely true for Tolkien. He's never hid his contempt for humans, and it's cringe. Evil isn't "inherent" in us as a people, we aren't discontented in times of peace just because that's who we are. Plenty of civilizations have managed to live well in harmony with the land and each other in times of peace. He just didn't belong to one, and that letter came across to me as "no war, no point". There could have been countless stories about conflict and growth during this age, but he had no interest. He could write about dwarves, elves, orcs, frickin anyone but his own. He couldn't write on the age of man because he knew nothing of them, and never cared to learn.
It comes from his Christianity. I do love the books, and love what they did for the High Fantasy genre, but it's clear to see that the world he made is a Christian allegory. Even if he's said that he doesn't care for allegory.
One can think of Game of thrones as 4th age of middle Earth.
That phrase of Tolkien's noting humankind's "quick satiety with good" is poignant and profound. Once I matured enough to understand the complex ramifications of it I see the truth of it everywhere.
Just a wild thought as I hear about this unfinished idea Tolkien had, but what if this book was actually supposed to lead to Dagor Dagoroth with the dark tree and the cults mentioned actually Morgoth returning, having somehow escaped imprisonment without anyone knowing.
Or at least the cults are actually the descendants of those Sauron convinced to start worshipping Morgoth.
If either idea was mentioned to be part of this, my apologies for missing that part.
Tolkien already mentioned that 1958 was already equivalent to the 7th Age
The Phil Dagrush audiobooks you use are my favorite
Interesting to imagine that even Lord of the Rings have it's own "Boruto" story, with the point of view from a descendant of one of the main heroes.
I like to imagine Tolkien wrote this story after seeing what the youth of Britain was becoming after World War Two. Just for comparison, A Clockwork Orange was published in 1962, and Tolkien commented on the New Shadow in 1964.
If a new story came set just a few hundred years later it wouldve completely made everything the hero’s of lotr feel pointless and wasted. When the sequels were released to star wars that exactly what happened. It made the hero’s acts and victories feel pointless and lesser. A sequel to lotr would have to have been set far later in the timeline in order to not take away from the feeling of victory of defeating sauron. Had a replacement stepped forward for sauron very suddenly it would simply make lotr feel depressing and hopeless
I heard you're not covering Amazon, so I decided to subscribe. Looks like a cool channel.
From my post or somewhere else? :)
Thanks a lot, hope you end up enjoying the content.
@@TheRedBook Not from any post that I'm aware of. Words just has a way of getting around on its own.
Great video! Thanks for the content
Not a problem, glad you are enjoying it!
It's a shame this idea was never really explored by Tolkien. As much as I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, I actually some of his side stories far more, particularly the Children of Hurin. If approached from a similar angle perhaps he would have been more interested in the idea. I don't think it would be very palatable as a direct sequel to the Lord of the Rings, but if it was just treated as a part of the overall history of the world, not anymore a sequel than The Ley of Beren and Luthien is a prequel, but just an isolated snippet of Middle-Earth, that might have been palatable. All is hypothetical regardless. Thanks for the video, gonna binging this channel for sure.
I think your point about it being less of a sequel is a good one. It's a bit like The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The latter being written as the follow-up but they seem so different in scope and style. I never see The Lord of the Rings as a "sequel" to The Hobbit. The New Shadow could have been something similar. A snippet as you say.
Thanks!
"....and man would have to deal with his own nature." A dark story indeed.
the evil within Men is so far more terrifying than a lord of evil. As great as Morgoth and Sauron were, they could be defeated, even permanently destroyed but you can't defeat your own nature. In a way, they are easier to fight.
A Lord of evil can be destroyed, but Men's evil can't. This would be a good main idea for New Shadow, but I agree that this would be bad continuation for the good and happy ending from LotR.
This inherent evil is the result of Melkor putting much of his own power, his own essence into everything in the world, in order to corrupt it. So in Tolkiens world, there never can be a final victory over evil, until the entire world is desroyed and renewed... which would be very hard to write about.
Evil cant be destroyed, but it can be destroyed by itself.
technically speaking tho. The evil within Men is basically the doings of Morgoth himself.
@@captainfighter7666 that might be true but what within the nature of Melkor made him bad in the first place? Could it be that whatever caused him to be that way could also be within humans too? Or on a more fundamental level that whatever caused Melkor to become the way he was already existed and is in all living beings but only in humans is it able to come out as easily?
Wasn’t there rumors that the blue wizards might be involved in it? That one or both of them had been turned by Sauron like Sarouman had been?
Great video as always man, but if I'm not wrong the story continues a little bit after Saelon and Borlas conversation... absolutely intriguing and grim how it "ends". Unfortunately, what ideas were in Tolkien' s mind regarding this continuation we will never know...
It ends with Borlas in the silent house, smelling "old evil" and knowing it for what it was.
@@TheRedBook yeah, I didn't want to make spoilers for other users who didn't know that lol
@@belzebuj I pretty much spoiled it in the video anyway :D
Lord of the rings and everything that came from it was pretty much perfect a perfect story world fantasy and it ended in such a good way it’s hard to continue that masterpiece or start a new one
I first read this in high school after I went through the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and LOTR. I thought it was dark and gritty. I wished he continue it but at the same time I thought it was so messed up that in just a short time ( in the general scheme of things), men were already failing.
I'd like to think that this story would eventually lead to the downfall of men and the world would be more or less a sort of dark ages, much like after the fall of the Roman Empire or more drastically, the Bronze Age Collapse. Superstition about elves, dwarves and other races, death everywhere, and just general despair in Arda. Maybe even Orcs and other creatures running around.
I forget which wiseman it was, but one or another of them warned that we are never more than one generation away from forgetting everything that ought not be forgotten.
there is a lot to work with for a sequel for villains cults, man of the east, nameless things from the deep and shelob and her children. just to name a few.
All the Tolkien works seem to lead towards degeneration over the ages, similar to Vedic belief. The first age is incomprehensibly different to the third age: more cosmic, fantastic and magical. Contrast that with the second age, third age and beyond where the world becomes increasingly mundane. I don't think the story comes full circle with Morgoth returning. That seems very at odds with the overarching direction of the Tolkien world where gradually the power held on either side, good and evil, are stunted. Despite the prophecy, I think Morgoth is simply gone, like Ungoliant, just gone. And didn't Tolkien say that these works could be seen as a mythology, almost as if they could be the history of Earth so many thousands of years ago? It makes sense then that the fourth age would be full of political intrigue and nihilism. Maybe Tolkien saw too much of the modern world in it and it was no longer really fantasy. Maybe that's just the end of the mythology, except rather than one huge moment to signal the end, there's the huge bang of the ring being destroyed and then it just fizzles off...
I don't think the story is supposed to go "full circle", Arda, the first world was flawed because of Morgoth, the second world is supposed to be more beautiful and perfect because thoses flaws would be corrected and all the Free Peoples are supposed to participate in the second Great Music, even the beings that were not Eru Childrens like the Dwarfs.
This plot line sounds like today!
Evil could not ever be removed from Middle-Earth. Morgoth was infused in to the land and I guess people and could never be removed. It could be controlled by forever being vigilant... Shucks, you taught me that.
Yes, those beings who rely on the matter of Arda for their very lives are themselves tainted by the stain of Morgoth. It is up to each individual to stay on the true path, and in the case of Men, they can be free of it when they leave the world. Elves and the Ainur will have to wait!
Also, is said that morgoth was making part in the creation of Arda with Iluvatar and the other valar, maybe the stain of bad in men and the trend to dark lords appear to threaten the free fowks is part of the nature of Arda, due to morgoth influence in its creation. Maybe in the other Ages of Sun other Dark lords appear to threaten the world, making a cicle of destruction and reconstruction. Idk, but this idea seems interesting and a little sad to me.
You wonder how this would have turned out?It's funny to think that a dark fantasy type of novel about Intrigue and conspiracy could have appeared decades before that other fantasy author with the middle initials R.R ended up doing it
Amazing channel loved it
My thoughts as well. Nice video. :) Keep it going.
I think that there was definitely another epic waiting within some of the New Shadow's concepts and characters. Still, I think it makes sense that he sat this one down. It might just be a footnote, but it's a cool footnote. In some ways there's a bit of a similarity to WW2, with the first World War being called "The War to End All Wars" only for its aftereffects and lingering issues in the world to lead to WW2 only a couple decades later.
The evil Morgoth planted in men at their creation being his means for return to Middle Earth and the Dagor Dagorath sounds like such a cool idea. On a side note, if the Sun and Moon were to be destroyed in this final war, I wonder how the fates of men would tie into that
GoT could be like an unofficial post Lotr story lol.. nothing depicts the evil of men better than that show
Funnily enough there’s a lot of fun Tolkien references in Thrones
It would be interesting to see this story continue into our future, after the fall of man, by our own hands, back to a more primitive state with the darkness returning and even Dwarves and Elves awakening and returning to these shores to heal the world.
I sense a wheel of time crossover
I have many great theories about the new shadow I even at one time was working on finishing it
That would be an interesting project!
I am sort of in two minds.:) I generally dislike sequels, especially the ones you weren't initially intending to write (The Lord of the Rings is an exception, ha-ha) for the very reason Tolkien thought it wasn't worth it: nothing really new or valuable added.
I have no doubt, though, that it would have been very intriguing to read about internal struggles of men in the world they inherited, and I totally agree that Tolkien's ability to write about dark things is way underrated, but it would have been much more local and mundane. I prefer Tolkien as he is, with all mysteries and unanswered questions.
I am of a similar mindset. I like the mysteries and unanswered questions. I don't know why people want to make up things to fill in all the gaps. The mysteries make it more interesting.
100%
Professor Tolkien hints at the darkness in the hearts of men. Isildur, for all his virtue and might couldn’t resist the temptation of the ring. In the appendix after Thorongil goes south than east, he explored the hearts of men. What do you think he found?
Tolkien became close friends with and later led C.S. Lewis to Christ. They were in writing group together and often shared their stories and got feedback from one another. This story reminds me of Lewis' third book in his space series, That Horrible Strength. If you are looking for a good read, I would encourage reading all three.
The New Shadow to me almost sound extremely similar to that of the Synagogue of Satan in Revelations who will rule alongside the Antichrist in the days of the Tribulation.
This sounds like something that could of been interesting to have around before Dagor Dagorath when Morgoth returns.
Personally, I prefer to leave Dagor Dagorath somewhat ambiguous. That maybe it's just what the Elves believe, and not nessicarily what WILL happen, but what COULD happen.
@@sgauden02
Yeah "could" is interesting.
Though I would like to picture a Tolkien version of the Antichrist to appear in my head that would leave humanity in immoral ruin.
Yes, I mention that briefly in the video. Despite it taking place in the Fourth Age, which would be way before any End of the World scenario, I still like it as a sign of what could lead to the end. Darkness creeping into the world again through the hearts of men who may have abandoned the Gods or been abandoned...
@@TheRedBook Yeah. I also like what you said about how if the dark side of humanity wins, that in turn means that Morgoth wins.
@@sgauden02
Well though many humans fall into lawlessness and wickedness some will remain righteous and they will be preserved.
In a way I am happy tolkien didn't finished his story: the new shadow
For me a dark thriller just wouldn't fit in his world ( specially in that time of age )
In the fourth age most "magic" is gone or disappearing, it seems that at some point they just would be going into a mid evil setting with the focus on humans and not the mythology that created the world or used to inhabit it
Did love the video, looking forward to the next one!
Thanks, Montie, and yes that seems to be a common response - the idea that it may not have fit or just may not have been right to do. I still find that idea really intriguing, it would be such a different story but still set within Middle-earth at a time of "dying magic". So many possibilities, but I suppose that magic is what makes the rest of the Legendarium so engaging as well. The story may have introduced more negatives than positives into the mythology.
Well put. I was of the same mind.
Cool video. I think the mouth of sauron would have made a good villain for the new Shadow a story about evil cults of magic would be a good fit for he's character
I'm torn on The New Shadow.
On the one hand, a dark political thriller set in the Forth Age is a really intriguing idea. And I think Tolkien would have done a good job with it, had he felt inspired to pursue it.
But on the other hand, it _would_ be really depressing. LotR does end on a pretty high note, so having a sequel go, "and it all started to fall apart about a generation or so later" is incredibly depressing. And reality is depressing enough; no need to make fantasy emulate it.
Sums up the Star War sequel trilogy.
I think that a sequel with the Dagor Dagorath would be nice
We must always be vigilant of evil. Because our live depend on it.
I too am intrigued by 'The New Shadow', but seriously, I think Tolkien had so many balls in the air with his legendarium, I can quite understand why Tolkien wouldn't want to carry on with it, even if he didn't like the ideas of Thrillers in the first place. I'd rather he'd returned to 'The Notion Club Papers', completed at least some of the stories from 'The Silmarillion or even begun working on the voyages of Eärendil which might have rounded it off.
Having said that, it could have been a great book in its own right, emphasizing that "Happy Ever After" doesn't really exist. I'm reminded of the last part of George MacDonald's Curdie books, 'The Princess and the Goblin' and 'The Princess and Curdie', both of which Tolkien was certainly familiar with, and may have inspired some of the legendarium. Here, Curdie and Princess Irene both defeat the Goblins and marry, and Curdie becomes king. However they have no children, and the next king through greed destroys the castle and city such that all remains are "a wilderness of wild deer". I suspect Tolkien could see something similar one day for Gondor and Arnor, which is of course rather depressing.
I like to think that this sequel the evil cult leader was the Mouth of Sauron. Maybe due to long lifespan being numinorian and lifespan further extended by dark power. Hes getting ready for the return of Melkor.
It would make sense he would be a threat though hes much less powerful than Sauron who was in return much less powerful than Melkor. So were the forces of good who fought against them. Godlike beings faught against Melkor and his dragons larger than moutains. Elves and maiar wizard angels, and ents etc helped fight against Sauron. Seems like only men would be left to fight agaisnt The dark lord Mouth of Sauron and his orcs and corrupted easterlings left over from Aragorns taiming of middle earth. Their war could take place more in the shadows anyways.
After centuries of peace humans are unprepaired and would be great if they fail, The mouth suceeds in opening the gate to the Void and Degor Dagarath happens. Melkor and a leagon of nameless things invade. Only for the Valar to come and destroy all evil, and Eru to restart the earth. It would of been cool if the other continants would of been explored in this story. I want to know whats going on in the dark land and where the blue wizards are at god damnit!
Or. Wheel of time crossover the fifth age
Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, boring.
Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.
You are right! Real good is often rarer. If you study the history of humanity you’ll quickly realize how tweaked we have been as a species.
Personally my biggest question of LOTR is who took Saurons helmet ? I’d like to think a Cult took it and worship it and the leader specks as if it specks to him tell him what to do.
With someone saying "I will finish what you started" ?
Edit anyway 🤣: Did you know that Herumor is mentioned once in the Silmarillion in the part "Of the Rings of Power and..."?
Original post: I leave this for the algorithm (I don't always have elaborate thoughts to share, and I very much appreciate how you are willing to discuss with others here)
Hello again, and yes, he is associated with Fuinur. I was going to mention this briefly in the video, but I didn't know if it was relevant. It is strange that it is the same name that is used. Do you think Herumor is a figure in the Fourth Age, or that the legend of that figure from the Second Age is what these Men are talking about?
@@TheRedBook I have no idea if it's the same person but it seems possible. I am more sure though that he wanted to refer to a dark role model, a ruler of man who ascended in power because (or so he thought) he submitted to a dark overlord.
@@Crafty_Spirit - Yes, I think the idea of him being a man they look up to, and a man who willingly submitted to "the dark" is a good one. I'm sure some out there will end up believing he was a Ringwraith or something haha.
Well done ☝️
Thank you!
You know I think ultimately it was WW2 that stopped him from doing so he probably thought of the 1st WW and the idea of it being the war to end all wars and how 20 years later it happened again he probably knew at that point it'll never end and ultimately became saddened by the realization.
Moral of the story: Evil is pervasive and will never truly go away until the End of times.
I'm sure tolkien could have come up with some kind of external force of evil. the orcs were still around werent they? what about the undead in the hills? I always imagined that someday the orcs would learn how to make primitive guns that would make them a big threat again.
He probably could have come up with an external force of evil if he wanted to but it was important that at this time it wasn't about the external forces - it was about man himself having to defeat the evil within.
The orcs didn’t have any will to exist without Sauron and Morgoth. They only did anything because of the control of the two and without the two probably would’ve went extinct. Not to mention they’d probably get completely destroyed out of existence after Sauron died by men to avoid them being a problem again ever.
I am not getting political here & I do understand that I am oversimplifying, but I am taking a bit of license to make a comparison: After decades of effort the USSR fell in 1990 & the West emerged bruised but victorious. But without an external enemy to contend with, we have made an enemy of ourselves.
I believe it is the same old enemy... Marxism combined with leftist. We must fight that as Never before.. Tolkien would have encouraged us!!
Great Video Mellon!!!
Thanks :)
I think there is merit in telling stories that show the eternal struggle that follows the happy ending. I think it could have worked had it maybe been a bit more removed from the end of LOTRs, and while a thriller with intrigue would have been interesting, the more interesting part for me would be the demonstration of the futility of evil, as good will always rise to face it, showing that not only will evil ultimately doom itself in the end (as with Golem), but also that it will never be able to overcome good while good is there to oppose it. While evil might never be defeated until the end of the world, neither will good ever be defeated
makes me think about Tad Williams work, as a reconstruction of post-Tolkien fantasy, with how a sequel series to one of his addresses many of the same issues raised here and takes it a step further. Characters flawed by complacency faced with the return of the old evils their forbears repelled in their youth, and how while they might be ill equipped they are still willing to fight
I wonder if the material had been influenced by the satanic panic, and tolkein feared such a contemporary story would stain his previous works.
Interesting thought. I thought it would maybe stain previous works in terms of the positivity of them. At least, the hopefulness of it all.
When I saw this I really thought Morgoth himself would return free from his seal just like the prophecy
Aragorn reigned for 120+ yr. Surely the events in the New Shadow weren't immediately after his death, so anyone in the story who remembers the War of the Ring would have to be very old indeed.
It is unreasonable that only those who were alive at the time would remember the events of the War of the Ring. Instead, it must be much longer removed from LotR, such as a several centuries. Then, it is not those who witnessed the events first-hand that would remember, but rather those who families diligently taught their children in each generation to honor the deeds of the past. I feel that element fits well with the the other themes in Tolkien's writings.
We as humans have already on most levels forgotten WW1 and that was merely a century ago AND we have better education than you’d expect in a less sophisticated society. It’s not all that unlikely that barely over a century later lots of humans would’ve forgotten the struggle completely
I think Tolkien had a Biblical view of men and mankind, created in God's image, yet capable of evil on an epic scale. I am glad he bailed on that story when he realized how dark it would be. A righteous decision, IMO.
@@hydradominatus3641
Exactly. That is why I hate what-if videos that end with the Valar having to intervene in the Fourth Age to save the world. Or saying any of the heroes, other than Boromir dies. With so much actual lore to cover, why do RUclipsrs' subs insist on them making what-if videos they have to know will end badly in most cases? And why don't those RUclipsrs make an effort to create a good ending? Because that would require a belief that Eru is ultimately in control of the outcome and will provide a way.
@@hydradominatus3641
Yeah....you believe in religious dogma😂😆🤣😄
@@hydradominatus3641
Please enlighten me, omniscient one....
@@hydradominatus3641
You obviously misunderstood what I wrote. How you could read my original post and actually think I was an atheist is beyond me. You are the first person in my life to ever accuse of being "woke." I had to reread what I wrote several times to figure out how you came to your conclusion. Maybe you thought I said God is capable of great evil. NO. Mankind is capable of great evil.
He was Christian becouse he had to be his work is based on Pegan mythology together with Jesus who you see in Frodo(a lot of people see nothing Abrahamic in Jesus who would never suport christianity). 4 ages is Pegan concept find all over the world, hirarchy and importance of blood, reincarnation, etc. Its funy to me how Christians still belive this bs even with the many Gods he created and all that i stated... 4 age will become darker and darker with less nobility and curage, degredation of humanity, less power full people but they will suport evil in bigger numbers(man wil) untill god come to earth at the end when there is no solution anymore and win battle and restore golden age again, majority of people would die.
I don't think it was up to Tolkien to write about the fourth age. I Believe it is up to us
I assume this story would have been about Melkor's return and thus events leading up to Dagor Dagorath. And if this is the case, maybe Tolkien was uncomfortable righting something echoing the New Testaments' Revelation?
I feel like the new shadow is basically Morgoths influence, which will finally end in the dagor dagoroth
I also have to wonder because he does say that the plot would be thwarted, how much fun it would be to follow the new generations struggle with the legacy of the world they inherit, and the deep distance from the mythology that they are leaving behind by progressing into an ever more mundane and mortal world.
You could have well meaning characters get wrapped up in a world of magic and fantasy because of tales of heroes of old with connections to elves and other legendary figures like wizards and dragonslayers, but this magic and intrigue, well it comes from evil influence, and slowly corrupts them, or it corrupts friends and family because of this morgoth cults potential to manipulate, dominate, or tempt the characters to escape fate.
It seems like Tolkien wanted to speak more about the fall of principles and the fall of prudence which man is prone to do, perhaps The New Shadow of the 4th age is about the very nature of man in a huge regard and that the newest Dark force being fostered out of the falling vigilance of the lessons learned in the 3rd age by the Kingdoms of man, perhaps a new dark lord might have taken shape that works in the very shadow itself, born of the ignorance of man he became the lord of the unknown rings, figurative rings being manipulation of circumstance and omission of truth etc... to cheesey maybe, lol ok, enough BS from me, haha.
I think a big problem is the Dark Tree, it's a great idea, but it points to a resolution; the resolution for the evil in man is Christ.
Tolkien warned of pointing outside of the story, the logical outcome of this story is a huge point outside the story.
Very good point. I never thought about how such a story would end. It is possible that it would have no "good" resolution and can you imagine that being the final Tolkien tale? Perhaps he was well aware that he couldn't write a positive outcome for The New Shadow.
I always thought that this line from Saruman in the Extended Version of The Return of the King would be a good setup for the next chapter in Middle Earth. "Something festers in the heart of Middle-Earth, something you have not yet seen. But the great eye has seen it" I imagined that Sauron knew that there is some new enemy lurking deep underground that noone has seen. And that he was going to use the Orcs to tunnel down and destroy them. But this never happened becasue Sauron was destoyred and this army's scattered.
This new story in Middle-Earth could start in the Fourth Age where people barely remember the past. Tales from far off lands begin reaching Gordor about Huge Holes opening up overnight. Some so large that entire towns are swallowed up by the Earth. And mysterious creatures seen around these holes, Not Orcs....... but something else.
there's a couple balrogs lying around
I feel that perhaps Tolkien simply felt he would not live long enough to complete the Fourth Age-as this type of story would _only_ be able to be resolved by the finishing of the Dagor Dagorath in order to purge mens' spirits of the first evil that corrupted them by Melkor.
I think any Fourth Age tale should take place several hundred years after the death of Elessar. Some powerful agent of darkness coming from the East or the South along with some kind of Fifth column in the West. Not all the servants of Morgoth are accounted for. Maglor does not die at the end of the Silmarillion, but throws his Jewell into the sea and wanders off into the East. There are still the two Blue Wizards to account for. Could one or both been corrupted? And of course the question of all questions remains: Where are the Ent-Wives?
They apparently ended up in Llanfair, Wales. Go look up its full name.
@TheRedBook
"The race of men, including Hobbits"
Can you explain what basis there is to include Hobbits as a variety of men? Is it merely their linguistic affinity with the Rohirim? How would you compare the relationship between men and Hobbits with the relationship between Dwarves and Petty Dwarves? And furthermore, how would you characterize the relationship between Men, Hobbits, and the Drúedain?
13 pages....hmmm.
Plus the symbol looks like the all seeing eye on the back of the dollar.
Why not create a fanfiction book project based on original idea? Since not written by the oj it might not be literature gold but interesting story nevertheless.
My thoughts exactly
i wish someone would complete the new shadow
Complete is probably the wrong word since it got barely started! But I'd be interested in reading more of it.
The Hobbit told me the value of a good story. The Lord of the Rings taught me the value of a good sequel. The Silmarillion taught me the value of background lore. The New Shadow taught me the value of ending the story on a high note rather than making unnecessary continuations.
The dark tree within men could be Tolkien referencing that sects of Christianity believe that all humans are born with with sin.
He should've written about the nameless things, or the blue wizards, or the black numemnorians.