Good Golly Molly! How did you train to be such a giant killer in Tokyo?
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- Molly Seidel punched way above her weight in Tokyo, at least on paper. Maybe she was just better than we or she realized. In only her 3rd marathon, under hot and humid conditions, she beat multiple athletes with faster PBs to take the bronze. My daughter Siren (a distance runner and sports science student) did a deep dive into her training throughout 2021, particularly over the last 9 weeks. We present that analysis together here!
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I decided to watch this after your podcast interview on the extramilest with Floris Giermam. This is a fascinating analysis and so encouraging to us amateur runners to see easy runs being properly easy. I’d love to see more of this analysis
Also, loved the quote at 3:18: Healthy human first, pro runner second. It is a good take-home message out of this video in addition to the detailed training analysis :)
This was a great! Thanks to you both
Thank you so much, very interesting !
Really interesting video! Thank you both!
Awesome analysis!
Thanks guys, good to see you two doing this kind of analysis of pro runner's Strava data!
How great to give us the analysis as a scientific approach father and running daughter, how lucky you are 🤜🏼
this is awesome, thank you so much! you daughter is running very fast, amazing! Thanks for the great video!
Awesome analysis...thank you for sharing
I really enjoyed the information. Great stuff!
Hey Mister Seiler! Welcome back and thanks for your awesome work! ✌🖐😃
This was great guys, Molly is a machine!! Reinforcing all the good stuff. Thanks
This may be one of the most insightful running videos on RUclips. Well done!
This is really excellent information and presented so well. Thank you so much.
Excellent analysis. Will use the take-aways in my run training.
Such a good idea. Great visuals and so much practical information even for recreational endurance athletes. Thank you!!
Good input here, it mostly re-affirms that to run long distances well one successful formula is to run heaps of easy enjoyable runs, some longer runs and some not too hard speedwork, like strides or hill repeats. Sounds fun to me :).
Since this analysis came up from stalking this world class athlete on Strava, I've tried looking you guys up there, but found you have no activities recorded on your profiles. I think it's a big missed opportunity!
Thanks Siren and Steven for this most interesting video - very much appreciate your hard efforts and scientific analysis. I look forward to any future topics you may present.
We will do more. Already talking about new topics. The kid just has to be a college student now 😊
Thanks guys. I'm getting back into track running after a 25 year hiatus. I'm self coaching and your videos are just so beneficial as food for thought on my own programming. Thankyou so much. 🇦🇺👍
Me too . . . :o)
Yay!! Welcome back to RUclips, Stephen.
Fantastic video.
Hey, thanks!
Hear hear! Don’t be gone so long. And please get your co-authors together for a video on the mid-distance runners paper!
Great idea for a video - stalking an athlete (on Strava). Brilliant.
Great analysis. Enjoyed the video. I just wished you indicated both mile/km notations throughout the video.
Very interesting. For me personally the part about Molly being a stronger long distance runner was especially interesting. I was a member of an athletics club in my youth 10-16y and was underperforming most of the time, because i absolutely disliked running short distances fast and developed a negative relationship with running and eventually quit. Now as an adult at 32y i absolutely love running, because i enjoy longer distances way more and my body responds to capacity training way more than to high intensity training, which we did a lot of in the athletics club.
I listened to an interview with Molly and she said hard track sessions led to injury problems for her, this led to the intensity distribution as you described
Slow-twitchers do not do well with high intensity....just enough to add spice without strain. The converse is true with faster-twitch: just enough volume to support recovery and volume of needed high-intensity.
@@terraflow__bryanburdo4547 Thanks, I'm highly slow twitch myself, as my friend's Dad used to say about his old car, "I can make it go louder, but I can't make it go any faster"
@@dave3gan I love that quote!
I'm impressed how much your daughter knows. I hope to learn more from her.
I love this format! I hope you'll both do more analyses of athletes like this. Also, doesn't this training resemble a bit the Ingebrigtsen's approach of double-threshold days?
Yeah, generically, I would say they both do some regular "double hard" session days. By this I meann that both sessions are intensity oriented and race-pace-ish. However, I think they probably define "threshold" pace a bit differently, with Jakob and co running shorter repeats but at faster paces to end up at the same quasi steady-state for blood lactate and perceived exertion.
Do you think the double days is better than doing the same volume in one session. I’ve seen that Jakob and his brothers do around an hour of total threshold work but run in two sessions of 30 minutes each. It seems like this would keep your stress response higher for longer since you are turning up the stress signaling twice per day, four times per week, as opposed to just twice but a. It higher volume in the single sessions. Seems like the polarized model would support keeping it to one session if you can handle it.
The follow up question is if it’s actually better to do double sessions so you can add more total load by spreading it out over twice as many sessions, why not take that to the extreme. Meaning, if you’re filling this model and doing 2 hours of threshold effort intervals per week in double days, why not take to its extreme conclusion. You could maybe increase your load another 50% and go to three total hours per week at threshold level effort by doing 4 double days per week?
Thanks so much for sharing your work with us! You’ve transformed my entire training philosophy and how I got about things and have seen my running change dramatically and knock on wood been able to finally figure out how to keep injuries at bay with lots and lots of slow running at as slow as 10 minutes per mile even when my faster days of longer intervals get are in the 5 minute range, a full 100% slower on my easy days at times. It was so counter at first but have been able to get back to training consistently after four years of Achilles troubles keeping me on the bike. Thank you very much for your work and sharing with all us enthusiasts!
@@jamesjohnstonmcginness7171 This is an excllent question and one I am trying to pursue with some upcoming research project proposals. There are mechanistic arguments for both approaches, to be honest. That is what makes this question important. Doing doubles and spreading the total work volume over two sessions may achieve a similar or even better adaptive signal while reducing stress responses.
@@sportscientist Do you think if you replace one of these Ingebrigtsen threshold sessions on the bike instead of run to also aim for 30min of threshold work/session or extend that to 40-60min because of the reduced load on the body and therefore less risk of injury? Would love to hear your thoughts.
As a runner who loves the history AND science of the sport, this is VERY useful and motivating as I train for a potential BQ race this fall (provided it's not canceled). Thank you Stephen and Siren for posting this :) Molly is inspiring!
Good luck. Lots of people are hoping for a return to local races. Hope that happens soon for all
@@sportscientist I'm in Columbus, OH. We had a tune-up half (Emerald City in Dublin, outside Columbus) yesterday and it was PACKED. Even though it was a small race people are desperate to get back into our sport! I will watch more of your vids as well--this one was high-quality.
I quit my Trainerroad sub and just started to listen to everything you’re on. Every pod cast. Everything. My training has completely changed. I’m an American masters critt racer. I’ve been more successful than I planned on being. Would you ever go over a training plan for these short 50- 60 min races? Sorry to jump off topic.
Wow, it always feels great to hear when people make these changes and feel the difference in their training and performance. Thanks! Also, that sounds like a great topic for a video for sure!
this is propably one of the gretest changes you could've done for healthy longevity too :)
Look into Xert - you'll thank me later :)
@@lereveure I don’t like it. I’ve used. It’s by far my least favorite from them all.. Building a plan off DSS’s is by far the biggest best results I’ve had.
Yep I’ve quit Trainerroad too. This approach is healthy, enjoyable and effective. Thank you 🙏
Top analysis and also very cute. Thank you
Very sound, interesting analysis. As a coach it is important to implement 'training not straining'. All successful training has to be sustainable, invigorating, fun and inspiring enough to get the athlete out the door. The best results always arrive after months of fun, varied build up of free running over trails, forests, hills etc at relaxed paces, only building to higher intensities with plenty of recovery.
Very informative video. It would also be interesting to analyse the training of the ninth and tenth place finishers, Malindi Elmore and Sinead Diver. Why? Because they were 41 and 44 years of age respectively. The differences in training between young runners and these ladies would be a fascinating subject. Both are on Strava.
Dang Stephen I think the heir apparent has made herself known with this analysis!! Incredible job Siren! Very insightful!
Yeah, my years are definitely numbered. The girl is good! 😊
Excellent video. Have you done any thinking about working out with Stanford's cooling method to keep the body from overheating?
And also working out and stretching the heart during Long sessions and finishing with some hard sprints which make the blood pressure go up extremely high before the heart rate climbs.
Just a thought.
No, I have not thought about those connections per se. Thanks for the input!
Very nice analysis. I'd be curious to see what she does for Strength and Conditioning, and Mobility.
Well sure, that and nutrition and hydration and sleep and massage and recovery methods… but this is “strava stalking” not *actual* stalking 😉😁
Superb...
Great analysis, it would be great if we could analyze Jacob Ingebrigtsen training too...
From what I've read, elite runners like Ingrid Kristiansen, Ingebrigtsen, Kipcoghe are very careful not to push too hard during their workouts...
Ingrid Kristiansen older blog had interesting articles on how she approached her training...one thing I still remember was that on her hard Workout for 10k... She was always careful on not going above a certain Pulse...
Which also is what I think Jacob Ingebrigtsen also do in his training together with the blood lactate checking...
They manage to find the a perfect pace to accomplish all their sessions...so that they remain injury free and able optimize their performance on the race day
I agree. But sometimes in Kenya, the runners are told to just go out and run till they pass out or vomit😂
Dangerous method but it really does work for them
@@waterproof4403 That's not true at all; when they run fast they go fast, when they run slow they go slow, they do a lot of hills, progressive long runs and Fartlek, plus diagonals like Molly..
@@mstrunn it is true. I'll look for a video and send the link if I can find it I've witnessed this myself in Ethiopia too. Even as young kids, at times our coach would tell us to run till we can't. You are correct too of course they do have a specific type of training as well
watching their reality show, almost one of the three brothers is injured at some point during every season of the show
Dear Dr. Seller and Molly, thank you for this much informative video.
I could not help but notice that my girlfriend has her HR zones pratically identical to Molly's. And I am also marveled at her capacity to gain running endurance in such a short time. Can this be an indicative that her phisiology is a good one from running? If that is unsufficient data to attest that, please recommend some literature. This could act as a huge motivational boost for us.
Thank you in advance!
@Andre' Biasuz Purchase a book by Arthur Lydiard, very similar to Molly's training.
Hey Doc! What are your views on Low cadence training in cycling?
Great analysis! Does Strava provide true ‘mileage' data, in miles instead of km?
Yes miles. I just converted it to kilometers.
I really hope Molly watches this!
Thankyou, this was very interesting. Did Molly have easier/cutback or "down" weeks in there to absorb a previous set of training (high volume but intensity was low) - or do you think the training intensity was approximately the same each week?
She did have a 2ish week down period in March-April before the main Tokyo block. After that she kept mileage high 170-215km range. Peak of mileage the last 8 weeks before Tokyo. So approximately the same volume/intensity distribution week after week. It doesn't seem like she cycles her weeks too much (like the standard 3 up 1 down for example).
@@sirenseiler9139 great, thankyou
As always, fantastic video Professor Seiler. Thank you! Why no strength training? It`s interesting, that the general thought is that strength training is very beneficial for most endurance athletes. However many of the top marathon runners, and also the GC contenders in road cycling arent doing strength training in the gym. Any thoughts on why that is? All the best Malte
@Malte Therkildsen Molly does strength training, there are some pictures and vids on the internet, this is only her running training.
@@mstrunn Thanks! Hadn't seen that. Is it heavy strength work, or more like core and plyometrics?
@@maltetherkildsen2378 She does core and would rather do 5 reps of a heavy squat than many reps, but "heavy" is relative for her.
I don't know about Molly but heavy squat will work the core pretty well
Looooong delay here in responding! Endurance athletes generally hate doing things that 1) take extra time and 2)make them sore. So there is huge variation in the ise of strngth training among elite endurance athletes. Rowers and XC skiers (upper body) strength train a lot, runners perhaps do it least. When it comes to older athletes, strength training probably becomes MORE important as we age!
Greatest Analysis I have ever seen.
FYI- Molly did run 1:08:29 at the Atlanta half marathon in March of this year.
Thanks, lines up with the comments here that say she is still getting faster in that 5k-HM range on this training, and ultimately that has to be true if her marathon is to keep improving since she is already maintaining a high pace relative to those PBs for shorter distances.
Wow, her training is so unsexy compared to a lot of the other athletes out there. A lot of hard work , consistency and balance. That's part of the mental aspect as well for her having to go through a few diagnoses.
Dr Seiler, would you say that Molly's intensity distribution fits into the (dare I say it) '80/20' pattern? It seems to me that it broadly would, although her intensity sessions may fall on the lower end of z3 in your 3 zone model. At ~200km/week, even 40km/week of threshold intensity is also a major stimulus and yet still 'only' ~20% of volume.
Kms volume are just kms volume. As intensity count time in zones not kms.
@@Cienki_Bolek Yes, just depends on the terminology you prefer to use. Time in zones is the preferred metric of Dr Seiler amongst others, along with total time as a measure of stress/ strain. Per my comment above though 40km/week of intensity is well less than 20% of 200km/week by TIZ, given that it is run substantially faster.
@@glyndonwakeman7420 from my reading, it's 20% of sessions or 10% of duration / time.
We often discuss training volume in terms of distance/week. This may work well for professionals who can afford to take as much time as they need to train to reach a target distance / week, but the reality for most people who have day jobs, we are working with a fixed (limited) allotment of time for our training. Are there any research investigating if total time, or total distance is a better measure of training volume? That is, should we be designing our workouts with
1/ a "fixed" distance in mind, and let the length of time in a workout be flexible,
2/ or with a "fixed" length time in mind, and let the distance be flexible
3/ or does this depend on the length of the event you're training for? For example, I could imagine training for a marathon is more dependent on a volume of distance, whereas a 5k could be more focused on volume of time.
I really like your scientific approach to training. I am wondering if you could make a video about cross training for runners. f.e: how does threshold workouts on a bike transfer to running for runners. Could runners improve by doing threshold on the bike along with running workouts? Really interesting how good triathletes are at running even though they run a lot lesser than runners.
Implementing treshold workouts on bike would also mean that runners could reduce the amount of impact force, and thereby the risk of injuries.
@@dastolh IMO you'd be better off doing the harder sessions as sport specific so you derive maximum efficiency gains and adaptations at a muscle-CNS level. Also: you will typically see improvements at a beginner level when cross training, but as you develop the benefits would require focusing on the specific sport you're training for.
@@aarondcmedia9585 im thinking of implementing this into my winter training. This way, It might boost my fitness. The loss of specificity won´t be huge as this will be 1-3 bike workouts/week periodized.
You have Senead’s BP wrong, it’s 2:24:11, but thanks for the great analysis 👍
Thanks for the correction!
Siren and Dr. Seiler, I'm all in on zone 2. As I train I tip over into zone 3. Normally its a few minutes while climbing or occasionally just forgetting and letting it roll. Am I negating the positive effects of low intensity training when I go a little too hard for a few minutes? Do you have any guidelines on how long you can stay outside of zone 2 before I negate the benefits? My guess is accidental isn't a big deal, 10 plus minutes in zone 3 makes it a junk ride
Thanks, I'll run 5 to 10 ish minutes no big deal. 10 or more minutes or an all out effort should wait until the last of the ride. Saturday 3 hour z2, 7 minutes at max is about right
Thank you for this in-depth analysis, some great insights. However, two runs a day and no rest days has got to be pretty hard on the body, especially with an impact sport like running. Given that we hear so many athletes burnout or develop injuries that cut their careers short I do worry if this is truly a sustainable approach for Molly - there’s absolutely no questioning it’s apparent efficacy in terms of performance, but I just hope that doesn’t come at the cost of long term sustainability in the sport or lead to burnout.
What is your take on this?
I think that the amount of zone 1 running stops the burn out. I do a majority of my runs at below zone 2 and feel 100% recovered between runs. Also her hard sessions aren't that hard (Forgetting the amazing pace she has) and would be equivalent to a normal human running just under their 10km pace
Well, let's face it, this is an athlete that loves to train and is pretty obsessive about getting in her volume. Most of us need more frequent rest days as a general rule. BUT, she has tempered that obsession by listening (and actually responding) to her body and adjusting accordingly. And, as mentioned above, she is avoiding the super high-stress sessions and that helps keep her on keel I think.
@@sportscientist thanks for the reply. It’s definitely interesting the “flexibility”/“autonomy” that your daughter mentioned in terms of no planned rest days per se but adjusting or skipping workouts based on how you feel. That probably takes a lot of honest reflection, listening to your body and presumably also careful monitoring by a coach. It’s just interesting given that it directly challenges the typical adaptive cycle of acute fatigue followed by rest to absorb and adapt - I guess Molly is simply so highly trained that even a double day counts as “rest” if her pace is kept low enough, almost like she uses those as “double active recovery” days rather than additional workload as such
@@XX-is7ps I think you identified it there. Rest is a relative term. Her 'easy' pace is truly easy for her. You'll find that her pattern of training is fairly typical of elite marathoners I think. 2x daily runs, with a single run on the long run day= 13 sessions per week is fairly common amongst elite runners. They'll take time off at the end of season or after peak races.
@@glyndonwakeman7420 thanks for the reply. What is the specific rationale within marathon running training for splitting such low intensity sessions up into two sessions in a “double day”, as opposed to a single longer session as seen in other endurance sports such as cycling where “time in zone” is emphasised and specific adaptations occur precisely because of the continuity of effort for a single longer duration? Is this simply an injury prevention technique specific to running?
Stephen, as a newer runner, my easy HR runs put me at a pace around 11-12min/miles, which turns into a long ground contact time. So my lower legs seem to get beat up a lot from it. Does slower pace work like this ever affect your outlook on easy runs? Does this make any sense? Thank you 🙏
If you want my opinion I’d say always think “time on feet”. I for example will always count minutes when I’m running in trails and not kilometers. Then as you get fitter your easy pace will be faster and more ground will be covered. Yet still same “time on feet”. :)
@@sirenseiler9139 Awesome makes total sense to me, Siren, thank you so much :-) (Obviously, I am interested in your opinion, sis! This is "blanche" from Strava, btw.) 🙏🙏
@@theetheell Also try running for a set amount of minutes, say 10, then walk a minute, etc, I've tried it and like it very much.
Training stress is intensity x duration. As a new runner, you probably aren't training more than 8 hours a week so you can probably afford (and recover from) running some of your runs a bit faster
Thats an insane ammount of Km's pr. week !
Indeed, >200kms per week, week after week... personally I don't think a bronze was a surprise at all given her running career going into the Olympics
She's pretty and beautiful. Beautiful smile too.
She has a new personal best of 2:23:07
Are any runners using power meters?
If you look Molly up on Strava you will see there is power data there as she uses a Coros Pace 2 watch. However not sure it is accurate. Personally I use the Stryd footpod and it has transformed the way I approach and execute my training...
The volume and low intensity is interesting. I assume her training strategy is to build the large aerobic base via a higher volume which requires easier pace in order to avoid residual fatigue and injury? So, the the volume requirement dictates how easy the training pace needs to be? Does this reinforce or question the concept of "how low is too low"? Or is the strategy driven by other factors such as training at higher intensity was causing issues with injury etc. and so it was necessary to reduce the training pace and that required/allowed a higher volume? I guess this is how the science has to work for a particular individual.
Peres jepchichir got the womens only world record
John 3:16
good god she is pretty
800m training schedul pls
After watching this twice in two years I think talking about her pace just makes it too complicated plus the fact that I'm a minute/mile person. It only helps me to know how many minutes/hrs she spends in what HR zones. I can do 200 miles a week no problem but I'm slow and only Run/Walk.
Great vidéo! Thanks a lot guys ✌️