this video poppod up in my feed at a good time. Yesterday I completed an event in Switzerland called the Jura Derby which was a 165 km ride in the Swiss Jura with 2400 m of climbing. I decided to try out my BMC Roadmachine AMP which has the Mahle X20 system. I also have the extender battery which was used yesterday. I was in a fast group, and had the bike in eco mode thoughout. The bike did great, I completed the 165 km course with 63% remaining on the main battery (the extender was completely empty). Average speed was 27 km/kh. The motor was mostly in use on the climbs, on flatter sections we were going at well over 30 km/h. This is an astonishing range, well over 240 km. This is surely more than enough for most people. The only small niggle was that when the extender battery was empty, it gave a warning and limited power to eco mode, even though the main battery was full which was a shame for the final climb as I wanted to go faster as there was battery in reserve. I could not reset this until I got home and recharged. maybe Mahle need to look at how the system hands over from the extender battery to to the main battery in a software update.
That's a terrible oversight from Mahle, I do hope that they get it sorted in an update. In the meantime, once the battery charger (extender) has depleted itself, would unplugging it from the frame battery not give you access to all power modes? Excellent total range btw!
I have an Orbea Gain M20i w/o Range extender and my last ride was 114 km and almost 1.000m elevation. Battery had 7% left - but I had the support off for the first, flat 30 km. On the other hand I weigh around 110 kg and have some stuff on the bike (full frame bag, etc.)
The range can really depend on how much work you 'let' the motor do. Having said that one of my other videos I note that most of the battery energy (for me) goes on the climbing portion of the ride. Hence your data looks about right to me. Terry
I asked previously about how the Smartbike system worked. In more detail: 1. I have heard it senses cadence, torque and speed. In what proportion does it use each of these to determine output? Mostly cadence? Mostly torque? I have heard motor power output increases with pedal cadence and its best to be "spinny" to get the most out of the system. This suggests cadence input is predominant. For climbing torque sensing would seem most applicable. 2. While the motor cuts off at a certain high speed is there a lower speed cutoff as well? A rider going along at a lower speed and low torque presumably wouldn't need e-assist so much as one either trying to for speed or a low speed/high torque situation like climbing. 3. Is the 25km cutoff for all bikes, even those sold in the US which has an ebike speed limit of 32kph? 4. What power levels are default for each of the three assist levels (green, amber and red)? How does this very with cadence, torque and wheel speed? 5. Is the 250w/300w peek power rating based on electrical power consumed, or mechanical power output? Most geared hub motors are about 80% efficient in converting electrical input to mechanical output. 6. I assume the hub motor is geared and not direct drive, correct? 7. Brushed or brushless? 8. Based on things I've seen I am guessing the battery is exceptionally expensive ($700-800US for a 250w pack) because the pack also contains the motor controller, is this correct?
The system that I use is for Mahle X35+. This is quite a simple system and detects only when the pedals are rotating and bike speed. The motor turns on when certain conditions are met, namely when the speed is below 25kph and the pedals are turning. If those conditions are not met, the motor is off. When the motor is on IT supplies the full programmed power based on the level the rider has selected. It sounds like a very simple system, it is, but it works remarkably well. I have ridden bikes with the Fazua Ride, 50 system and a bike with a Bosch CX; both mid-motor systems. Both of these have both torque and cadence sensing. I can't say that they are remarkably better than the simple X35 system. Mahle make a newer X20 system which does have both torque and cadence sensors. I haven't ridden a bike with this on so I don't know how good it is. In order to find out if a particular system has torque cadence sensing, you will need to refer to the manufacturers information.
2. There is no lower cutoff speed on my X35 system. I believe this is true for all other systems, although maybe it's programmable on some. On the X35 system, maximum power is reached at around about 14kph, below that speed the power tails off. Hence at very slow speeds there is very little additional motor power. It's for this reason I wouldn't advise a hub-based system for off-road cycling. I stated in my previous reply (1) there is no torque sensing on the X35 based bikes. For hub-based systems with torque sensing, lt wouldn't make up for that fundamental lack of lowdown power.
3. In the UK and the EU (oh, how I regret having to say that), The motor must not assist above 25 km; The rider must be pedalling for the motor to assist. I'm not entirely familiar with the US ebike laws, also, I believe, they may vary from State to State. I think there are three classes of e-bike (1-3). In general though, as I understand it, the maximum powered speed for e-bike is 20mph without the rider assisting (class,1,2). If the rider is assisting (pedalling) I believe the maximum powered speed is 28 mph (class 3). If there's anybody out there that knows better than I, please correct me. Most e-bike manufacturers make market specific versions that comply with the local laws. So e-bike sold in the US generally have a 20mph powered speed limit.
4. My x35 system has three pre-programmed modes - Eco, Urban, Sport; it also has a user definable mode. Each mode has four power levels, off + 1-3. You can pretty much select any power level in each of the levels from 0-100%. As stated in my previous answers, there is no torque or cadence sensing so the motor is either on or off in each of the levels. As I said previously, this may sound a rather crude system, but it actually works pretty well in practise.
Hi there, i have an orbea gain and road 62 miles and still had 36% battery, i am only around 60 kg, and around 4-5 hrs riding is enough for any day of the week! Thanks for the videos
Benno and responders, distance isn't really a very good measure of battery capacity, as I have shown in my videos the distance can vary dramatically depending on how its used, terrain etc. My Gain has undergone 20 charging cycles and covered 3500km. When fully charge the battery is still showing 100% and 31.7volts. Basically no degradation, but it's early days yet.
I think you are a bit lighter and fitter than me. I haven't done a test like you have but after owing and riding my D50 for the last nearly two years I feel I can get about 90km out of a full charge. Your vid was great thanks for posting.
Tony. This does not indicate the distance in continuous use, though, which is what most people would be interested in. I fitted a Revos friction drive kit to my road bike, and to check the range I did an undulating ride - including a couple of really tough hills - with the power on continuously, so the battery was working all the time except when freewheeling. It is a simple, though very efficient kit, but it only has one power level. The manufacturers quoted figure for continuous use - based on a 200Wh battery with a draw down of 5W per km - was 40km obviously. In my test the battery expired at 36km, showing the figure to be pretty accurate. That then is it's range, which I need to know for future reference. My point is, if I do a ride of say, 60km, and use the motor for 20km of the ride, it is misleading to broadly state that I did a 60km ride and had 50% battery life left at the finish - it actually means nothing, and could have people thinking that the range of the battery is 120km. Is tnis argument valid?
@@crispyalsatian Perhaps I'll do a video on weight (mass). Mahle states the x35+ system is 3.5kg. However in practice the frame and possibly other components are also beefed up. When I weighed my D20 without pedals, bottle cages, mudguards etc it registered 14.5kg. So in reality it is about 5-6kg more than an acoustic bike with an aluminium frame. When riding the bike in acoustic mode I hardly notice the 'extra' weight as it is only about 5% of the total rider+bike+other bits weight.
Hello. Could you explain how the system works? When does it provide assistance and how does it determine this? You said it is both speed and rider power determined.
The Mahle x35+ system is either on or off. It turns on if you are pedalling and your speed is below 25km/h (UK, EU). If one is not pedalling or the speed goes above 25 km/h, the motor turns off. The rider can control the amount of assistance the motor gives by changing the assistance level. The assistance level can be changed in four steps (off,1,2,3) while riding. Finer control can be applied via the app, but only while stationary. The on-off nature of the motor sounds a bit crude in terms of control. However, in reality the power comes in and out very smoothly. The X35+ system gives low levels of rider assistance. The rider is expected to put in much of the effort, with the motor just assisting. The rider is therefor the main mechanism for control of the bike's motive force. In practice the bike and rider system works surprisingly well. I hope this has given you some additional insight, if not just ask more questions.
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this video poppod up in my feed at a good time. Yesterday I completed an event in Switzerland called the Jura Derby which was a 165 km ride in the Swiss Jura with 2400 m of climbing. I decided to try out my BMC Roadmachine AMP which has the Mahle X20 system. I also have the extender battery which was used yesterday.
I was in a fast group, and had the bike in eco mode thoughout. The bike did great, I completed the 165 km course with 63% remaining on the main battery (the extender was completely empty). Average speed was 27 km/kh. The motor was mostly in use on the climbs, on flatter sections we were going at well over 30 km/h. This is an astonishing range, well over 240 km. This is surely more than enough for most people.
The only small niggle was that when the extender battery was empty, it gave a warning and limited power to eco mode, even though the main battery was full which was a shame for the final climb as I wanted to go faster as there was battery in reserve. I could not reset this until I got home and recharged. maybe Mahle need to look at how the system hands over from the extender battery to to the main battery in a software update.
Interesting. Let the bike do the work or do the work on the bike its your choice?
That's a terrible oversight from Mahle, I do hope that they get it sorted in an update.
In the meantime, once the battery charger (extender) has depleted itself, would unplugging it from the frame battery not give you access to all power modes?
Excellent total range btw!
I have an Orbea Gain M20i w/o Range extender and my last ride was 114 km and almost 1.000m elevation. Battery had 7% left - but I had the support off for the first, flat 30 km. On the other hand I weigh around 110 kg and have some stuff on the bike (full frame bag, etc.)
The range can really depend on how much work you 'let' the motor do. Having said that one of my other videos I note that most of the battery energy (for me) goes on the climbing portion of the ride. Hence your data looks about right to me.
Terry
I asked previously about how the Smartbike system worked. In more detail:
1. I have heard it senses cadence, torque and speed. In what proportion does it use each of these to determine output? Mostly cadence? Mostly torque? I have heard motor power output increases with pedal cadence and its best to be "spinny" to get the most out of the system. This suggests cadence input is predominant. For climbing torque sensing would seem most applicable.
2. While the motor cuts off at a certain high speed is there a lower speed cutoff as well? A rider going along at a lower speed and low torque presumably wouldn't need e-assist so much as one either trying to for speed or a low speed/high torque situation like climbing.
3. Is the 25km cutoff for all bikes, even those sold in the US which has an ebike speed limit of 32kph?
4. What power levels are default for each of the three assist levels (green, amber and red)? How does this very with cadence, torque and wheel speed?
5. Is the 250w/300w peek power rating based on electrical power consumed, or mechanical power output? Most geared hub motors are about 80% efficient in converting electrical input to mechanical output.
6. I assume the hub motor is geared and not direct drive, correct?
7. Brushed or brushless?
8. Based on things I've seen I am guessing the battery is exceptionally expensive ($700-800US for a 250w pack) because the pack also contains the motor controller, is this correct?
What a lot of questions, good questions. I think I'll probably answer them separately so see the responses below.
The system that I use is for Mahle X35+. This is quite a simple system and detects only when the pedals are rotating and bike speed. The motor turns on when certain conditions are met, namely when the speed is below 25kph and the pedals are turning. If those conditions are not met, the motor is off. When the motor is on IT supplies the full programmed power based on the level the rider has selected. It sounds like a very simple system, it is, but it works remarkably well.
I have ridden bikes with the Fazua Ride, 50 system and a bike with a Bosch CX; both mid-motor systems. Both of these have both torque and cadence sensing. I can't say that they are remarkably better than the simple X35 system. Mahle make a newer X20 system which does have both torque and cadence sensors. I haven't ridden a bike with this on so I don't know how good it is.
In order to find out if a particular system has torque cadence sensing, you will need to refer to the manufacturers information.
2. There is no lower cutoff speed on my X35 system. I believe this is true for all other systems, although maybe it's programmable on some. On the X35 system, maximum power is reached at around about 14kph, below that speed the power tails off. Hence at very slow speeds there is very little additional motor power. It's for this reason I wouldn't advise a hub-based system for off-road cycling. I stated in my previous reply (1) there is no torque sensing on the X35 based bikes. For hub-based systems with torque sensing, lt wouldn't make up for that fundamental lack of lowdown power.
3. In the UK and the EU (oh, how I regret having to say that), The motor must not assist above 25 km; The rider must be pedalling for the motor to assist.
I'm not entirely familiar with the US ebike laws, also, I believe, they may vary from State to State. I think there are three classes of e-bike (1-3). In general though, as I understand it, the maximum powered speed for e-bike is 20mph without the rider assisting (class,1,2). If the rider is assisting (pedalling) I believe the maximum powered speed is 28 mph (class 3). If there's anybody out there that knows better than I, please correct me.
Most e-bike manufacturers make market specific versions that comply with the local laws. So e-bike sold in the US generally have a 20mph powered speed limit.
4. My x35 system has three pre-programmed modes - Eco, Urban, Sport; it also has a user definable mode. Each mode has four power levels, off + 1-3. You can pretty much select any power level in each of the levels from 0-100%. As stated in my previous answers, there is no torque or cadence sensing so the motor is either on or off in each of the levels. As I said previously, this may sound a rather crude system, but it actually works pretty well in practise.
Hi there, i have an orbea gain and road 62 miles and still had 36% battery, i am only around 60 kg, and around 4-5 hrs riding is enough for any day of the week! Thanks for the videos
Happy to have helped.
Very good video👌.
It would be interesting to experience how the battery capacity decreases with age.
After 7000 miles 30 miles of range.
@@josefraiz8438 after 7200 miles I'm getting 40 miles in assist 1
Benno and responders, distance isn't really a very good measure of battery capacity, as I have shown in my videos the distance can vary dramatically depending on how its used, terrain etc.
My Gain has undergone 20 charging cycles and covered 3500km. When fully charge the battery is still showing 100% and 31.7volts. Basically no degradation, but it's early days yet.
I think you are a bit lighter and fitter than me. I haven't done a test like you have but after owing and riding my D50 for the last nearly two years I feel I can get about 90km out of a full charge. Your vid was great thanks for posting.
Thanks, range is so dependent on many factors, how much you 'let the bike do the work' seems to be a big factor.
Tony. This does not indicate the distance in continuous use, though, which is what most people would be interested in. I fitted a Revos friction drive kit to my road bike, and to check the range I did an undulating ride - including a couple of really tough hills - with the power on continuously, so the battery was working all the time except when freewheeling. It is a simple, though very efficient kit, but it only has one power level. The manufacturers quoted figure for continuous use - based on a 200Wh battery with a draw down of 5W per km - was 40km obviously. In my test the battery expired at 36km, showing the figure to be pretty accurate. That then is it's range, which I need to know for future reference. My point is, if I do a ride of say, 60km, and use the motor for 20km of the ride, it is misleading to broadly state that I did a 60km ride and had 50% battery life left at the finish - it actually means nothing, and could have people thinking that the range of the battery is 120km. Is tnis argument valid?
How much weight does the motor and battery add to the bike? And how much more does it cost?
80kms in the rain is dedication!!!
I see your other video covers the cost.
@@crispyalsatian Perhaps I'll do a video on weight (mass). Mahle states the x35+ system is 3.5kg. However in practice the frame and possibly other components are also beefed up. When I weighed my D20 without pedals, bottle cages, mudguards etc it registered 14.5kg. So in reality it is about 5-6kg more than an acoustic bike with an aluminium frame. When riding the bike in acoustic mode I hardly notice the 'extra' weight as it is only about 5% of the total rider+bike+other bits weight.
Hello. Could you explain how the system works? When does it provide assistance and how does it determine this? You said it is both speed and rider power determined.
The Mahle x35+ system is either on or off. It turns on if you are pedalling and your speed is below 25km/h (UK, EU). If one is not pedalling or the speed goes above 25 km/h, the motor turns off.
The rider can control the amount of assistance the motor gives by changing the assistance level. The assistance level can be changed in four steps (off,1,2,3) while riding. Finer control can be applied via the app, but only while stationary.
The on-off nature of the motor sounds a bit crude in terms of control. However, in reality the power comes in and out very smoothly.
The X35+ system gives low levels of rider assistance. The rider is expected to put in much of the effort, with the motor just assisting. The rider is therefor the main mechanism for control of the bike's motive force.
In practice the bike and rider system works surprisingly well.
I hope this has given you some additional insight, if not just ask more questions.