Interestingly, the setting isn't just 'Grimdark', but it literally defines the term. We have the term 'Grimdark' because in the start of the rulebooks for the wargame, the quote 'In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only war'. How grimdark a setting is is literally a measure of how shitty the world is to live in compared to Warhammer 40k.
40K defined grimdark, but I don't think it has maintained it due to how our standards for 'grim' has increased -- and the franchise has done little to keep up. It's more nobledark. 40K is full of magic and immortality. Space Marines can live for 100s of years while living purposeful lives. Tau expand at a rapid rate while encouraging the Greater Good. Orks can do anything as long as they believe enough due to being hyper-magical -- plus they're regularly goofy on a widespread scale. Etc.
I think the Tier system is probably the only way you can do a 40K game that includes normal people, space marines, eldar and orks. You need tiers because the power levels are so wildly different in the lore. This video was super well put together, nice one!
Imho the old FFG rpgs handled that better. Luckily they're still available digitally. It had several sub games (let me think: Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Onlywar and Dark Crusade are the ones I remember) all compatible with one another, that explored diferent corners (more thematically that georgraphically) and more importantly party types within the setings. An Inquisitor's or Rogue Trader's Retinue is just fundamentally different from a Chaos Cult or Deathwatch kill team. Imho the setting doesn't lend itself well to mixed group due to its very sectioned of society.
@@scelonferdi Try teaming characters from each together. It doesn't work and was never meant to be played that way. That is the entire point of the tier system in Wrath & Glory. Each player can basically play what they want.
@@scelonferdi I did like the FFG RPGs a lot but they do lack flexibility to a certain extent. Which FFG am I gonna run a gang of underhive scum in? How about a full Ork campaign? Those RPGs are a bit too focused to cover everything. It's close, but W&G definitely allows for more variety
@@McHobotheBobo That's absolutely true. In the Imperium of Man that's kind of a thematic approach. With freedom of making your own decisions being very limited, there are distinct groups allowed to do certain things. There isn't much overlap in what an Acolyte and a Rogue Trader can do. So having one Core "engine" and very elaborate rule sets focusing on each group's circumstances feels kind of fitting.
The thing I learned from RPing in this setting under the loving and knowledgable care if a good GM (Ours is a 40K wikipedia on legs) is that the idea of Xenos genocide quickly becomes the least disturbing thing about this setting. Things will become pretty horrendous pretty quickly... The Emperor protects!
I don't think you can really call it a con when the setting and appeal of Warhammer 40k is defined by the extremist nature it takes with everything. The whole point is that every race is bad in some way shape or form. Every race has deeply upsetting and uncomfortably ideals, pasts and reasons for war. When one of the most non-evil race in the Warhammer 40k universe is the Tyranids because they simply want to eat and multiply, it's saying something. There's a reason why there are only the chaos gods and none for order or "good". Your con is the reason why many are in love with the setting. It's gruesome, disturbing and horrific not just with war, but in the societies, beliefs and the every day lives of the people within. And, sometimes, that's what people want. A setting that's about torment, suffering, brutality, chaos, evil and etcetera. Still, overall, a great and informative video.
The Imperium of Man worships the God Emperor of Mankind, and this is probably one of the bitterest ironies of 40k, as the Emperor had no desire to be worshiped, and in fact wanted to wipe out all forms of religion. Of course this is also a giant of a man with immense psychic powers, clad in golden armor, and literally glows from his own power. The religion that worships him was founded by one of his 20.5 sons.
@@zephyrstrife4668 "But my lord! What about the Lactino Divinitatus? Telling us you are the one true god?" "That was written by my whinny bitch of a son Loggar who later decided to wear spiky armor, worship some dark gods, and be really fucking edgy. Stupid rebellious teenage phases." Also this was from a podcast about The Last Church but Uriah had a point. He knew Loggar had been raised a man of the faith and yet was still given a legion by which he could in fact spread his faith. If The Emperor was so concerned about making sure secularism won the day, he should've waited until Loggar de-converted before giving him command of a legion.
I've actually home-brewed the hell out of this game for my campaigns. lol There's so many more facets and factions of WH40k that aren't included in the core rulebook. Don't get me wrong, I love the book and the game, I've just added more to it using the book itself as a blueprint (and I'd suggest others to do the same). The Imperial (Human) classes/archetypes are pretty solid. It's pretty well flushed out, but it doesn't cover everything. I added a Grey Knight option for the Adeptus Astartes archetype and I added more to the Officio Assassinorum archetype. There's already a Death Cult Assassin archetype, but I wanted to see the Vindicare, Callidus, Eversor, and Culexus Temples introduced in my games. The only part of the game that I was even remotely disappointed in, was the lack of playable Xenos. 3 Aeldari classes and 3 Ork classes just isn't enough for me. I added the Warp Spider, Dire Avenger, Howling Banshee, Dark Reaper, and even the Harlequin as playable archetypes for the Eldar. Nobz, Boyz, and Kommando is a great starting place for the Orks. I added Weird Boy, Big Mek, Mad Dok, Grot, and Squig Herder (Grot with Squig minion[s]) to the Ork archetypes. I also took the liberty to add the Tau to the roster. Fire Warrior, Breacher, Pathfinder, Earth Caste Engineer, Air Caste Ace, Water Caste Mediator, Drone Commander, and Battlesuit Pilot (I decided on making the health of the pilot and the Battlesuit two different things to keep track of; the pilot alone generally sucks without the Battlesuit). I love the idea of swapping alliances to the extreme. While the Imperium of Man isn't exactly "good", but they maintain a resemblance of order and have been known to reluctantly cooperate with Xenos races and mutants from time to time (as rare as that is). I wanted to expand towards the opposite direction as well. I focused on the worshippers of Chaos, Drukhari (Dark Eldar), Necrons, and Genestealer Cult. Sorry for the essay of a response. I just like spreading ideas around the community. Don't be disappointed something isn't in the book, add to it. It's not illegal for you to add or take away from the material to tailor to your games. Balancing the things you add is a huge aspect of this level of home-brew. You don't want to make things weaker, otherwise no one would ever want to play it (unless they were a die hard roleplayer). And you don't want things to be too strong, otherwise everyone would want to play it and nothing would be a challenge. If something sounds completely bad ass that you want to add, it probably needs to go on a higher tier. Primaris Astartes are at the top (tier 5 I believe), so that's a good guiding star to determine whether something else belongs there or not. I put the Tau Battlesuit Pilot and Eldar Harlequin with the Primaris category. They are god-like soldiers from their respective race/faction.
In regards to the Archetype system, Ulysses was suppose to be working on supplements that would bring in Aeldari Guardians and Aspect Warriors, along side other Ork types, but they lost the license. Cubicle is currently working on what was left, and the homebrews haven’t been updated yet.
Also, to abridge the lore into why the Imperium is such an absolute xenophobic state: The Aeldari birthed a new Chaos God in a debased action, which happened about the same time the pre-Imperial society collapsed due to AI rebellion. At this point, you have the following: The Aeldari Craftworlders, who view humanity as beings of shortsightedness and animalistic, but never willing to try and explain their actions (while also using human lives in place of Aeldari ones), The Orks were a predecessor creation by the ancient species that once roamed the galaxy (like Aeldari), but only live to fight. The concept of peace doesn’t exist to Orks, who would be better described as living weapons. The Tyranids are an extragalactic species that devours biomass and adapts. Like Orks, they are not so much an actual alien species, but unlike them, they are a literal force of nature. The Necrons, an ancient enemy the Aeldari and Orks were created to fight, are awakening. They want to rebuild their shattered empire, and wipe out the races currently residing. And they have technology so advance, it says “sod off” to reality and physics. Drhukari are Aeldari that chose not to restrain their base desires after their empire collapsed. To ward off the God that goes after their soles, they raid and pirate other species and torture them (among other things) to rejuvenate and restore their numbers. Chaos just wants to see the Emperor dead. The factions would take too much time to explain. The only ones who would seem decent would be the Tau, but they are far too young and natives about how the galaxy functions, and even then, it’s implied that reconditioning is used on those who question their philosophy. A novel pretty much pointed out that anyone who refuses is an anathema. If you want to actually learn more without getting scarred, watch If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device, by BruvaAlfaBusa. The first two seasons do an amazing job of breaking down the setting in parody humor.
Glad this system included a wider variety of character options such as Mechanicus and Scum, along with the flexible tiers. Being largely skill-based, you could run an all, or mostly, Mechanicus party for example.
I'd suggest looking at Only War if you want some cogboy fun. You can be a tech priest or a variety of Mechanicus soldiers, from the basic to more advanced, like the Crimson Guard. There's also a homebrew supplement someone did up that includes advancements all the way up to Magos and the various flavors of skitarri.
I would also recommend checking out 'Baroque Space Opera' for a rich, dark, far future sci/fantasy RPG setting that draws from the likes of Dune, WH40k, Farscape, and others. It has an amazing amount of content and lore.
The setting would terrible to live in, but the lore is absolutely amazing. There's nothing quite like it. So much of the history is lost to time because of an AI rebellion, purposeful misdirection, or the victim of poor record keeping that you really have to piece certain things together. There even red herrings that could lead to several conclusions. Once you get going down the rabbit hole of the lore you start feeling like an archaeologist trying put a puzzle together. No other setting has really made me feel like that. This particular game though isn't for me. Dark Heresy is where it's at.
To be fair, the rift in the game is based on the one that opened up during the transition from 8th to 9th edition in the wargame. But yes, it does help to have a smaller arena to have players muck about in compared to some of the other games.
Late to this video but thanks for covering it! Been playing TTRPGs (Dungeons and Dragons specifically) for about a decade now and have wanted to sink my teeth into something else. I recently just got into 40k so this is awesome to look into!
I would have thought that Necromunda or Kill Team would be an easier(and mature) sandbox to transition this wargame franchise to TRPG. Also a xenos fan, I was hoping that there are more materials in the book to create a setting where the Imperium can be the antagonist instead. Great review.
The greatest part about the game is that not only does it have the Orks and Eldar built into the system, the player's guide adds the Kroot from the Tau Empire. You also have the option to play as agents of chaos as well. One of the things I noticed about the game is that... with a bit of effort, you can even add in species that aren't yet playable such as Tau or Dark Eldar. (For the latter, it's pretty much just like playing an eldar, only you're meant to be some kind of sadomasochist evil... of course, without making other players uncomfortable.) Your GM can even build adversaries not already in the game
@@zephyrstrife4668 There's even some homebrew site called Doctors Of Doom that have some homebrew for playing as other species and factions like the Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc and even some stuff from Dark Heresy if that's your thing. "An Abundance Of Apocrypha" has a little of everything, "Let The Galaxy Burn" for Chaos, etc.
12:58 Just a little input on this as it seems to pop up more and more often. Humanity only still exists and endure because they have adopted this ideology, regime and xenophobia. If they hadnt, humanity would have been exterminated long time ago. While I have no problem at all with any of it (its just a game and taken to absurdity at that) I do want to quote Mike Pondsmith on Cyberpunk 2020. "This is not an aspiration, its a warning." - Mike Pondsmith.
The Interex would have liked a word with you...they were doing JUST fine until the Imperium came along. So no, it is not a needed evil...it's a lazy evil...the Imperium is a Juggernaught fed by misery and suffering and it has so much inertia that trying to change its course to be anything but a theocratic bureaucratic fascist empire is nigh impossible because those in charge, the high lords and the Inquisition PREFER it to be that way. Even a Primarch could only make token reforms and because of those smallest of reforms 6 of the High Lords labeled him a Heretic and went into open rebellion (which didn't last long admittedly). During the Great Crusade there were numerous examples of Xenos who just wanted to be left alone, posed no threat to the Imperium but the Imperium wiped them out anyway. The Imperium could have been something better but...with an egomaniac spouting about manifest destiny of humanity at its fore whose only conscern was keeping the great war machine fed with new enemies...it never stood a chance.
@@luketfer I disagree. The Interex is a perfect example of why the Imperium HAS TO be a militaristic, belligerent, xenophobic hellhole. The Interex tried being a peaceful, enlightened utopia... and then got wiped out by the FIRST expansionist neighbor they've encountered. They were essentially too good for the galaxy they lived in. And if it took a single Space Marine legion to destroy them (at a time when the Imperium had 18), do you really think they would stand any chance if a Tyranid Hive Fleet or a major WAAAAAAGH! rolled their way?
My friends and I played through the previous version of the game and it was a bit of a mess. You mention at the beginning of the video that this one is better organized and I think it may be worth checking out again. Thanks for the video.
Having looked at the original release and the 2020 update release its like night and day. The original release rulebook was an complete fucking mess if I'm honest. The current one isn't great because it's like "ok choose an Archetype...which is listed some 40-50 pages later in the book..." meaning you have to flip through a lot of stuff in order to complete character creation. Most RPG books will go "ok choose a role...and here's the list of roles!" and then carry on with character creation.
The 40k verse is by definition a dark future setting, which is the key quality that sets it apart from the plethora of vanilla and generic backgrounds out there. 40k (and 30k) has had decades to develop and grow, since it's a sci-fantasy franchise that has been around decades. Its crime isn't being grimdark, with clearly delineated factions. IGames Workshop has borrowed from many other franchises and melded them into a host of warring races and cultures (see Terminator and Aliens for obvious examples of initial inspiration for the Necrons and Genestealers / Tyranids for example). Human history has these same aspects, which is where elements of our psychology and imagination not only derive from and persist. For us nerds, the imagination and fun are great ways to express our shadow safely. In conclusion, no reason to be alarmed by the setting - no one's getting hurt and everyone knows its a game!! We cannot resort to censoring or banning fiction and ideas, in a vain attempt to repress and pretend and delude ourselves that we are from a perfect world, or that utopia is ever possible - it's simply not going to be because nature cannot abide absolutes.
I understand its not your cup off tea, but the sheer inescapable monstrosity of our degredation is kind of the reason why many people love 40k. I formally apologise on the behalf of anyone who cant keep their veiws on this to themselves and was far less civil.
Last when I was infirmed GW(The creators of 40k) pulled back and the company prodused only Wrath and Glory. I hope that I'm wrong on this because there is a lot of potential as you can go bunkers with 40k plus all ork parties are always hilarious to watch and RP with.
I heard there were something like 400+ novels around the setting. C7 has recently released a new 40K game - curious if you will get a chance to review.
Man, I've only played the older edition of WnG. I dunno if this version is any better but from what I've seen it doesn't look like too much has changed. Maybe someone whose played both versions could tell me more but I had fun with it for as long as the game lasted.
I might do Warhammer 40K: Wrath and Glory after I finish up the current Warhammer: Age of Sigmar: Soulbound campaign I'm currently apart of which is the Shadows in the Mist campaign/storyline.
I think the perfect use for Ruin is when the players just breeze through something and it would of been more appropriate for them to meet resistance, using them when they're already on the back foot just isn't fun.
I would love to pick this up, but I think you're right in saying that "certain themes" of 40k that lend well to a war game might not translate well to an RPG. I think it would be incredibly difficult for non-40k players to play a campaign of this without toning down some of the aspects (maybe making it less grimdark and more like the campier older versions of the game)
Like with all RPGs, it would really depend more on what your particular table is comfortable with. I've seen some tables that are comfortable with some *incredibly* grimdark stuff, while others would blanch at even mild depictions of gore or torture. But for 40k, I think the setting works absolutely perfectly for a tabletop game - just as long as the players know what to expect.
The Imperium being genocidal is a bit exaggerated but, yes they absolutely are there is no denying that. But, there are times where they do work with Aliens when they have to. I would RP those scenarios, where you have Alien characters with humans, like they were A. Forced into that circumstance by a much bigger problem than each other, or B It's some shady backroom deal with a rogue trader or the Inquisition with a faction of Xenos where the characters are the "fall guys" when the plan inivitably goes to crap. Especially when both sides will definitely have ulterior motives they didn't disclose, which can be fun if done right. And C, the Xenos and humans are part of a rogue trader crew that operates in areas of space where the Imperium doesn't have much authority. Like let's say the fringes of imperial space would make it easier to explain how the rogue trader is getting away with that. As the Xenos are like "temporary advisors" to help further the Imperiums Influence in uncharted space. These are ways you can make it work at least believable from the lores perspective, some suspension of disbelief will probably need to happen, but a story of very unlikely allies working towards a common goal can be really good and fun.😊
Ngl, when the other races that inhabit the galaxy are things like Orks, Necrons, or Dark Eldar, the genocidal approach taken by the Imperium of Man seems extremely justified. The races that dont meet the "My only wish is for your annihilation" criteria when directed at humanity, there are genuine attempts at diplomacy, like we see with the Eldar, and occasionally with the Tau, and other, smaller, non-major faction alien species that can be reasoned with. "Can be reasoned with" you cant reason with a soulless killing machine, or a fetish elf that in order not to be eaten by a space daemon, literally needs to torture your soul. Theres no recompense or middle ground with that.
Complaining that 40k is too dark is like complaining that water is too wet. I like your reviews, but you really have to look at this more objectively and understand that the darkness of the setting is part of its selling points.
The main problem I have with this game is that it's clearly designed for people who LOVE the tabletop game and want to get an RPG. An outsider who has knowledge of the universe of 40k but doesn't play the tabletop...yeah the system is needlessly complicated at certain points (like the whole 'Extra Damage' die not just being 'rolll a D6, add the result on the die to the damage' (and by proxy lowering the base damage on weapons a touch) but instead a 'oh if it's a 4-5 you add one additional point of damage BUT if it's a 6 add 2!'). It feels like it tries just a bit too much to appeal to the Wargaming crowd with a TTRPG veener over the top. If that's what you want out of a TTRPG then go for it but for me...nah I'll pass if I'm honest, shame really.
One correction concerning the lore while the Imperium isn't fond of Xenos the Aeldar are generally left alone as well as their factions the Eldar and the Tau are generally left alone and the only Xenos the Imperium really go after are the Tyrnids, the Orks, and the Necron as those are the three "villainous Xeno races" and the Dark Eldar as they're the villainous Xeno races. And of course the Imperium goes after the forces of Chaos including demons, and Chaos-corrupted humans which includes cultists, fallen Psykers, and Chaos Space Marines aka Traitor/Heretic Astartes.
Not yet. But i am a big 40k nut... and i agree with your statements about the Imperium, however the fact that it is disturbing is very much the point. If you want some fun intro to life in 40k, look up the all guardsman party
I haven't played this version, but I have played some of the 40k RPGs in previous iterations. They're pretty fun, but if there is one universal complaint I have with them, it is that the systems all to a number are overly noodly and clunky, making them hard to play for an extended period.
I think that was one of the main selling points of this actually, to simplify a lot of things and also be "the 40k rpg" rather than having all the different products for inquisitors, space marines, rogue traders etc
Not that it really matters but before the opening of the great rift the Imperial tithe was every decade not every year. The imperium is simply too bloated and bureaucratically nightmarish for more than that. Now the tithe is suppose to be 10 years worth of in kind payment of troops and material so when they do roll in the tithe can be very depleting on a population, especially if you say; have neglectful governor more interested in his servitor love dolls and less interested in making sure the administratum gets every single bolt and soldier they expect. The administratum considers this a holy calling , so they're not going to be lenient or take some bribe to look the otherway. They'll also remember every tithe you were short for thousands of years from now which will be noted on their pig skin and the receipts turned over to Terra where it'll be cataloged in a continent size records vault of physical copies.
wrath and glory... ah yes... Brother Cocainus that can run 400mph The Hand Grenade Marine that can just walk up to anyone and hold grenades next to their heads and not take grenade damage.
So far, with a bit of tweaking and home-rule streamlining, my Dark Heresy stuff continues to dominate my 40k TTRPG space. I did buy the previous WnG stuff and looked to run it before they lost the license and I realized it was a dead system. This Cubicle 7 rework sounds rushed and incomplete and I will hold off to see where the license goes next, if anywhere
Don’t forget that it is meant to be a satire on authitarianism, imperialism, bureaucracy, organised religion and our relationship with technology, among other things. It is a British fiction thick with over the top and at the same time dry, dark humour. There are no “good guys”. So don’t worry too much about that morality and ethical issues, my man;)
You’re the first commenter to posit that this is satire. Not sure if it’s going over everyone else’s heads or you’re imagining things. Either way, I’m not worrying about it. I made this video years ago and haven’t thought about it or the game since.
![Quando Rondo - Life Goes On [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eIf3fhMXAow/mqdefault.jpg)
Interestingly, the setting isn't just 'Grimdark', but it literally defines the term. We have the term 'Grimdark' because in the start of the rulebooks for the wargame, the quote 'In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only war'. How grimdark a setting is is literally a measure of how shitty the world is to live in compared to Warhammer 40k.
Patrick Linnett Well it lives up to its subcategory, that’s for sure!
I was going to say the same thing. I hope the setting is grimdark or else they got the writing very wrong.
40K defined grimdark, but I don't think it has maintained it due to how our standards for 'grim' has increased -- and the franchise has done little to keep up. It's more nobledark. 40K is full of magic and immortality. Space Marines can live for 100s of years while living purposeful lives. Tau expand at a rapid rate while encouraging the Greater Good. Orks can do anything as long as they believe enough due to being hyper-magical -- plus they're regularly goofy on a widespread scale. Etc.
I think the Tier system is probably the only way you can do a 40K game that includes normal people, space marines, eldar and orks. You need tiers because the power levels are so wildly different in the lore. This video was super well put together, nice one!
Imho the old FFG rpgs handled that better. Luckily they're still available digitally.
It had several sub games (let me think: Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Onlywar and Dark Crusade are the ones I remember) all compatible with one another, that explored diferent corners (more thematically that georgraphically) and more importantly party types within the setings. An Inquisitor's or Rogue Trader's Retinue is just fundamentally different from a Chaos Cult or Deathwatch kill team.
Imho the setting doesn't lend itself well to mixed group due to its very sectioned of society.
@@scelonferdi Try teaming characters from each together. It doesn't work and was never meant to be played that way. That is the entire point of the tier system in Wrath & Glory. Each player can basically play what they want.
@@daddystabz They literally had rules to combine the games. They handled it through level equivalent tables iirc.
@@scelonferdi I did like the FFG RPGs a lot but they do lack flexibility to a certain extent. Which FFG am I gonna run a gang of underhive scum in? How about a full Ork campaign? Those RPGs are a bit too focused to cover everything. It's close, but W&G definitely allows for more variety
@@McHobotheBobo That's absolutely true. In the Imperium of Man that's kind of a thematic approach. With freedom of making your own decisions being very limited, there are distinct groups allowed to do certain things. There isn't much overlap in what an Acolyte and a Rogue Trader can do. So having one Core "engine" and very elaborate rule sets focusing on each group's circumstances feels kind of fitting.
The thing I learned from RPing in this setting under the loving and knowledgable care if a good GM (Ours is a 40K wikipedia on legs) is that the idea of Xenos genocide quickly becomes the least disturbing thing about this setting. Things will become pretty horrendous pretty quickly... The Emperor protects!
But do he tho
@@littlekinginc124 The Sisters of Battle can preform miracles just by believing in him. So I say he kinda do.
It is also entirely justified when every other faction wants to do the same (or worse) to you. Jury is still out on what the Tau are really up to.
@@krinkrin5982 At the very least they are an expansionist empire that is not against sterilizing native populations to replace them with their own.
I don't think you can really call it a con when the setting and appeal of Warhammer 40k is defined by the extremist nature it takes with everything. The whole point is that every race is bad in some way shape or form. Every race has deeply upsetting and uncomfortably ideals, pasts and reasons for war. When one of the most non-evil race in the Warhammer 40k universe is the Tyranids because they simply want to eat and multiply, it's saying something. There's a reason why there are only the chaos gods and none for order or "good". Your con is the reason why many are in love with the setting. It's gruesome, disturbing and horrific not just with war, but in the societies, beliefs and the every day lives of the people within. And, sometimes, that's what people want. A setting that's about torment, suffering, brutality, chaos, evil and etcetera.
Still, overall, a great and informative video.
Yeah, it's just my personal opinion. I respect what you're saying here though.
The Imperium of Man worships the God Emperor of Mankind, and this is probably one of the bitterest ironies of 40k, as the Emperor had no desire to be worshiped, and in fact wanted to wipe out all forms of religion. Of course this is also a giant of a man with immense psychic powers, clad in golden armor, and literally glows from his own power. The religion that worships him was founded by one of his 20.5 sons.
Specifically one of the ones that later fell to chaos, because irony.
@@zephyrstrife4668
"But my lord! What about the Lactino Divinitatus? Telling us you are the one true god?"
"That was written by my whinny bitch of a son Loggar who later decided to wear spiky armor, worship some dark gods, and be really fucking edgy. Stupid rebellious teenage phases."
Also this was from a podcast about The Last Church but Uriah had a point. He knew Loggar had been raised a man of the faith and yet was still given a legion by which he could in fact spread his faith. If The Emperor was so concerned about making sure secularism won the day, he should've waited until Loggar de-converted before giving him command of a legion.
I've actually home-brewed the hell out of this game for my campaigns. lol There's so many more facets and factions of WH40k that aren't included in the core rulebook. Don't get me wrong, I love the book and the game, I've just added more to it using the book itself as a blueprint (and I'd suggest others to do the same).
The Imperial (Human) classes/archetypes are pretty solid. It's pretty well flushed out, but it doesn't cover everything. I added a Grey Knight option for the Adeptus Astartes archetype and I added more to the Officio Assassinorum archetype. There's already a Death Cult Assassin archetype, but I wanted to see the Vindicare, Callidus, Eversor, and Culexus Temples introduced in my games.
The only part of the game that I was even remotely disappointed in, was the lack of playable Xenos. 3 Aeldari classes and 3 Ork classes just isn't enough for me. I added the Warp Spider, Dire Avenger, Howling Banshee, Dark Reaper, and even the Harlequin as playable archetypes for the Eldar. Nobz, Boyz, and Kommando is a great starting place for the Orks. I added Weird Boy, Big Mek, Mad Dok, Grot, and Squig Herder (Grot with Squig minion[s]) to the Ork archetypes. I also took the liberty to add the Tau to the roster. Fire Warrior, Breacher, Pathfinder, Earth Caste Engineer, Air Caste Ace, Water Caste Mediator, Drone Commander, and Battlesuit Pilot (I decided on making the health of the pilot and the Battlesuit two different things to keep track of; the pilot alone generally sucks without the Battlesuit).
I love the idea of swapping alliances to the extreme. While the Imperium of Man isn't exactly "good", but they maintain a resemblance of order and have been known to reluctantly cooperate with Xenos races and mutants from time to time (as rare as that is). I wanted to expand towards the opposite direction as well. I focused on the worshippers of Chaos, Drukhari (Dark Eldar), Necrons, and Genestealer Cult.
Sorry for the essay of a response. I just like spreading ideas around the community. Don't be disappointed something isn't in the book, add to it. It's not illegal for you to add or take away from the material to tailor to your games. Balancing the things you add is a huge aspect of this level of home-brew. You don't want to make things weaker, otherwise no one would ever want to play it (unless they were a die hard roleplayer). And you don't want things to be too strong, otherwise everyone would want to play it and nothing would be a challenge. If something sounds completely bad ass that you want to add, it probably needs to go on a higher tier. Primaris Astartes are at the top (tier 5 I believe), so that's a good guiding star to determine whether something else belongs there or not. I put the Tau Battlesuit Pilot and Eldar Harlequin with the Primaris category. They are god-like soldiers from their respective race/faction.
In regards to the Archetype system, Ulysses was suppose to be working on supplements that would bring in Aeldari Guardians and Aspect Warriors, along side other Ork types, but they lost the license. Cubicle is currently working on what was left, and the homebrews haven’t been updated yet.
Also, to abridge the lore into why the Imperium is such an absolute xenophobic state:
The Aeldari birthed a new Chaos God in a debased action, which happened about the same time the pre-Imperial society collapsed due to AI rebellion. At this point, you have the following:
The Aeldari Craftworlders, who view humanity as beings of shortsightedness and animalistic, but never willing to try and explain their actions (while also using human lives in place of Aeldari ones),
The Orks were a predecessor creation by the ancient species that once roamed the galaxy (like Aeldari), but only live to fight. The concept of peace doesn’t exist to Orks, who would be better described as living weapons.
The Tyranids are an extragalactic species that devours biomass and adapts. Like Orks, they are not so much an actual alien species, but unlike them, they are a literal force of nature.
The Necrons, an ancient enemy the Aeldari and Orks were created to fight, are awakening. They want to rebuild their shattered empire, and wipe out the races currently residing. And they have technology so advance, it says “sod off” to reality and physics.
Drhukari are Aeldari that chose not to restrain their base desires after their empire collapsed. To ward off the God that goes after their soles, they raid and pirate other species and torture them (among other things) to rejuvenate and restore their numbers.
Chaos just wants to see the Emperor dead. The factions would take too much time to explain.
The only ones who would seem decent would be the Tau, but they are far too young and natives about how the galaxy functions, and even then, it’s implied that reconditioning is used on those who question their philosophy. A novel pretty much pointed out that anyone who refuses is an anathema.
If you want to actually learn more without getting scarred, watch If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device, by BruvaAlfaBusa. The first two seasons do an amazing job of breaking down the setting in parody humor.
Glad this system included a wider variety of character options such as Mechanicus and Scum, along with the flexible tiers. Being largely skill-based, you could run an all, or mostly, Mechanicus party for example.
The all cog boy party
I'd suggest looking at Only War if you want some cogboy fun. You can be a tech priest or a variety of Mechanicus soldiers, from the basic to more advanced, like the Crimson Guard. There's also a homebrew supplement someone did up that includes advancements all the way up to Magos and the various flavors of skitarri.
I would also recommend checking out 'Baroque Space Opera' for a rich, dark, far future sci/fantasy RPG setting that draws from the likes of Dune, WH40k, Farscape, and others. It has an amazing amount of content and lore.
The setting would terrible to live in, but the lore is absolutely amazing. There's nothing quite like it. So much of the history is lost to time because of an AI rebellion, purposeful misdirection, or the victim of poor record keeping that you really have to piece certain things together. There even red herrings that could lead to several conclusions. Once you get going down the rabbit hole of the lore you start feeling like an archaeologist trying put a puzzle together. No other setting has really made me feel like that. This particular game though isn't for me. Dark Heresy is where it's at.
To be fair, the rift in the game is based on the one that opened up during the transition from 8th to 9th edition in the wargame. But yes, it does help to have a smaller arena to have players muck about in compared to some of the other games.
Late to this video but thanks for covering it! Been playing TTRPGs (Dungeons and Dragons specifically) for about a decade now and have wanted to sink my teeth into something else. I recently just got into 40k so this is awesome to look into!
Glad to hear you’re exploring other stuff!
I would have thought that Necromunda or Kill Team would be an easier(and mature) sandbox to transition this wargame franchise to TRPG. Also a xenos fan, I was hoping that there are more materials in the book to create a setting where the Imperium can be the antagonist instead. Great review.
Don’t wait for permission from Cubicle 7 to run Imperium as the bad guys! Just do it!
The greatest part about the game is that not only does it have the Orks and Eldar built into the system, the player's guide adds the Kroot from the Tau Empire. You also have the option to play as agents of chaos as well.
One of the things I noticed about the game is that... with a bit of effort, you can even add in species that aren't yet playable such as Tau or Dark Eldar. (For the latter, it's pretty much just like playing an eldar, only you're meant to be some kind of sadomasochist evil... of course, without making other players uncomfortable.)
Your GM can even build adversaries not already in the game
@@zephyrstrife4668 There's even some homebrew site called Doctors Of Doom that have some homebrew for playing as other species and factions like the Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc and even some stuff from Dark Heresy if that's your thing.
"An Abundance Of Apocrypha" has a little of everything, "Let The Galaxy Burn" for Chaos, etc.
12:58
Just a little input on this as it seems to pop up more and more often.
Humanity only still exists and endure because they have adopted this ideology, regime and xenophobia. If they hadnt, humanity would have been exterminated long time ago.
While I have no problem at all with any of it (its just a game and taken to absurdity at that) I do want to quote Mike Pondsmith on Cyberpunk 2020.
"This is not an aspiration, its a warning." - Mike Pondsmith.
The Interex would have liked a word with you...they were doing JUST fine until the Imperium came along. So no, it is not a needed evil...it's a lazy evil...the Imperium is a Juggernaught fed by misery and suffering and it has so much inertia that trying to change its course to be anything but a theocratic bureaucratic fascist empire is nigh impossible because those in charge, the high lords and the Inquisition PREFER it to be that way. Even a Primarch could only make token reforms and because of those smallest of reforms 6 of the High Lords labeled him a Heretic and went into open rebellion (which didn't last long admittedly).
During the Great Crusade there were numerous examples of Xenos who just wanted to be left alone, posed no threat to the Imperium but the Imperium wiped them out anyway.
The Imperium could have been something better but...with an egomaniac spouting about manifest destiny of humanity at its fore whose only conscern was keeping the great war machine fed with new enemies...it never stood a chance.
@@luketfer I disagree. The Interex is a perfect example of why the Imperium HAS TO be a militaristic, belligerent, xenophobic hellhole.
The Interex tried being a peaceful, enlightened utopia... and then got wiped out by the FIRST expansionist neighbor they've encountered. They were essentially too good for the galaxy they lived in. And if it took a single Space Marine legion to destroy them (at a time when the Imperium had 18), do you really think they would stand any chance if a Tyranid Hive Fleet or a major WAAAAAAGH! rolled their way?
Just now found out about this game and I am very interested in learning it. Might have to get the book and go from there.
Thanks for this review!
"Everybody is the Villain" helped me understand 40k better.
As a reluctant Lawful Good at heart, it was easier to stomach as 'satire'.
I am very excited to get my hands on this. I didn't realise the book was now available for purchase!
Playing to run a Vietnam style campaign for the boys the are looking forward to it because we all love the catachan jungle fighters
My friends and I played through the previous version of the game and it was a bit of a mess. You mention at the beginning of the video that this one is better organized and I think it may be worth checking out again. Thanks for the video.
Having looked at the original release and the 2020 update release its like night and day. The original release rulebook was an complete fucking mess if I'm honest. The current one isn't great because it's like "ok choose an Archetype...which is listed some 40-50 pages later in the book..." meaning you have to flip through a lot of stuff in order to complete character creation.
Most RPG books will go "ok choose a role...and here's the list of roles!" and then carry on with character creation.
The 40k verse is by definition a dark future setting, which is the key quality that sets it apart from the plethora of vanilla and generic backgrounds out there. 40k (and 30k) has had decades to develop and grow, since it's a sci-fantasy franchise that has been around decades.
Its crime isn't being grimdark, with clearly delineated factions. IGames Workshop has borrowed from many other franchises and melded them into a host of warring races and cultures (see Terminator and Aliens for obvious examples of initial inspiration for the Necrons and Genestealers / Tyranids for example).
Human history has these same aspects, which is where elements of our psychology and imagination not only derive from and persist. For us nerds, the imagination and fun are great ways to express our shadow safely. In conclusion, no reason to be alarmed by the setting - no one's getting hurt and everyone knows its a game!!
We cannot resort to censoring or banning fiction and ideas, in a vain attempt to repress and pretend and delude ourselves that we are from a perfect world, or that utopia is ever possible - it's simply not going to be because nature cannot abide absolutes.
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I understand its not your cup off tea, but the sheer inescapable monstrosity of our degredation is kind of the reason why many people love 40k. I formally apologise on the behalf of anyone who cant keep their veiws on this to themselves and was far less civil.
Last when I was infirmed GW(The creators of 40k) pulled back and the company prodused only Wrath and Glory. I hope that I'm wrong on this because there is a lot of potential as you can go bunkers with 40k plus all ork parties are always hilarious to watch and RP with.
Genocide thing disturbing...? Heresy.
Dave: You might get turned off by genocide 😬
Me and the boys: We are going to make Kryptmann look like a reasonable chap.
I heard there were something like 400+ novels around the setting. C7 has recently released a new 40K game - curious if you will get a chance to review.
Imperium Maledictum is awesome!
I would also be interested in a review of Imperium Maledictum
Man, I've only played the older edition of WnG. I dunno if this version is any better but from what I've seen it doesn't look like too much has changed. Maybe someone whose played both versions could tell me more but I had fun with it for as long as the game lasted.
I might do Warhammer 40K: Wrath and Glory after I finish up the current Warhammer: Age of Sigmar: Soulbound campaign I'm currently apart of which is the Shadows in the Mist campaign/storyline.
I think the perfect use for Ruin is when the players just breeze through something and it would of been more appropriate for them to meet resistance, using them when they're already on the back foot just isn't fun.
I would love to pick this up, but I think you're right in saying that "certain themes" of 40k that lend well to a war game might not translate well to an RPG. I think it would be incredibly difficult for non-40k players to play a campaign of this without toning down some of the aspects (maybe making it less grimdark and more like the campier older versions of the game)
Like with all RPGs, it would really depend more on what your particular table is comfortable with.
I've seen some tables that are comfortable with some *incredibly* grimdark stuff, while others would blanch at even mild depictions of gore or torture.
But for 40k, I think the setting works absolutely perfectly for a tabletop game - just as long as the players know what to expect.
They lost me at „playable orc race”
Wouldn't be out of the question. The Blood Axes have basic intelligence and are know to work as mercenaries for humans.
Honestly, the Imperium just generally dislikes other races when Tyranids and Chaos exist
The Imperium being genocidal is a bit exaggerated but, yes they absolutely are there is no denying that. But, there are times where they do work with Aliens when they have to.
I would RP those scenarios, where you have Alien characters with humans, like they were A. Forced into that circumstance by a much bigger problem than each other, or B It's some shady backroom deal with a rogue trader or the Inquisition with a faction of Xenos where the characters are the "fall guys" when the plan inivitably goes to crap. Especially when both sides will definitely have ulterior motives they didn't disclose, which can be fun if done right. And C, the Xenos and humans are part of a rogue trader crew that operates in areas of space where the Imperium doesn't have much authority. Like let's say the fringes of imperial space would make it easier to explain how the rogue trader is getting away with that. As the Xenos are like "temporary advisors" to help further the Imperiums Influence in uncharted space. These are ways you can make it work at least believable from the lores perspective, some suspension of disbelief will probably need to happen, but a story of very unlikely allies working towards a common goal can be really good and fun.😊
They are making more books. Thank you for the coverage.
Ngl, when the other races that inhabit the galaxy are things like Orks, Necrons, or Dark Eldar, the genocidal approach taken by the Imperium of Man seems extremely justified. The races that dont meet the "My only wish is for your annihilation" criteria when directed at humanity, there are genuine attempts at diplomacy, like we see with the Eldar, and occasionally with the Tau, and other, smaller, non-major faction alien species that can be reasoned with. "Can be reasoned with" you cant reason with a soulless killing machine, or a fetish elf that in order not to be eaten by a space daemon, literally needs to torture your soul. Theres no recompense or middle ground with that.
Complaining that 40k is too dark is like complaining that water is too wet. I like your reviews, but you really have to look at this more objectively and understand that the darkness of the setting is part of its selling points.
It’s my opinion added at the end of the video where I reserve a bit of time for, well, my opinions. Thanks for watching my channel.
@@DaveThaumavore Hey it's cool, I understand it's not for everyone. Your content is still pretty good.
@@andreasmuller4172 Thanks!
The main problem I have with this game is that it's clearly designed for people who LOVE the tabletop game and want to get an RPG. An outsider who has knowledge of the universe of 40k but doesn't play the tabletop...yeah the system is needlessly complicated at certain points (like the whole 'Extra Damage' die not just being 'rolll a D6, add the result on the die to the damage' (and by proxy lowering the base damage on weapons a touch) but instead a 'oh if it's a 4-5 you add one additional point of damage BUT if it's a 6 add 2!').
It feels like it tries just a bit too much to appeal to the Wargaming crowd with a TTRPG veener over the top. If that's what you want out of a TTRPG then go for it but for me...nah I'll pass if I'm honest, shame really.
Wraith and glory: we want you to play in this one sol system
Me DMing for the boys: *Fortunate son intensifies*
I'm about to give it a go as a DM but trying to learn the rules first.
Good luck! It's a lot to take in.
One correction concerning the lore while the Imperium isn't fond of Xenos the Aeldar are generally left alone as well as their factions the Eldar and the Tau are generally left alone and the only Xenos the Imperium really go after are the Tyrnids, the Orks, and the Necron as those are the three "villainous Xeno races" and the Dark Eldar as they're the villainous Xeno races. And of course the Imperium goes after the forces of Chaos including demons, and Chaos-corrupted humans which includes cultists, fallen Psykers, and Chaos Space Marines aka Traitor/Heretic Astartes.
Wow, i had wondered about this for a while. It sounds like the game is a Modipheus version of OpenD6.
Not yet. But i am a big 40k nut... and i agree with your statements about the Imperium, however the fact that it is disturbing is very much the point. If you want some fun intro to life in 40k, look up the all guardsman party
Awesome!
13:05 Imperium is fighting a defensive war; it's truly either Imperium or being possessed by demons or eaten by tyranids
Please review Talislanta (4th edition) if you have the time and inclination. It's available for free online.
The emperor was never really "human"
The imperium of man is not fascist. it is nowhere near that organized or monolithic. it is a textbook example of a feudal theocracy.
look very nice ! . . . . in the bookshelf
Hey Dave, do you have a podcast where you play tabletops with a group?
I haven't played this version, but I have played some of the 40k RPGs in previous iterations. They're pretty fun, but if there is one universal complaint I have with them, it is that the systems all to a number are overly noodly and clunky, making them hard to play for an extended period.
I think that was one of the main selling points of this actually, to simplify a lot of things and also be "the 40k rpg" rather than having all the different products for inquisitors, space marines, rogue traders etc
Not that it really matters but before the opening of the great rift the Imperial tithe was every decade not every year. The imperium is simply too bloated and bureaucratically nightmarish for more than that. Now the tithe is suppose to be 10 years worth of in kind payment of troops and material so when they do roll in the tithe can be very depleting on a population, especially if you say; have neglectful governor more interested in his servitor love dolls and less interested in making sure the administratum gets every single bolt and soldier they expect. The administratum considers this a holy calling , so they're not going to be lenient or take some bribe to look the otherway. They'll also remember every tithe you were short for thousands of years from now which will be noted on their pig skin and the receipts turned over to Terra where it'll be cataloged in a continent size records vault of physical copies.
Dis 'umie is sayin' da orks are the worse?
Sounds like wot 'e needs is a good krumpin' eh?
(Just kidding, love the content friend ^^)
wrath and glory... ah yes... Brother Cocainus that can run 400mph
The Hand Grenade Marine that can just walk up to anyone and hold grenades next to their heads and not take grenade damage.
So far, with a bit of tweaking and home-rule streamlining, my Dark Heresy stuff continues to dominate my 40k TTRPG space. I did buy the previous WnG stuff and looked to run it before they lost the license and I realized it was a dead system. This Cubicle 7 rework sounds rushed and incomplete and I will hold off to see where the license goes next, if anywhere
Shame there is no tau to go crunch under my space marine boot.
Ah yes 2020 the game
Orks aint dum. We knoe da troof. we knoe WWWWAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!
Don’t forget that it is meant to be a satire on authitarianism, imperialism, bureaucracy, organised religion and our relationship with technology, among other things. It is a British fiction thick with over the top and at the same time dry, dark humour. There are no “good guys”. So don’t worry too much about that morality and ethical issues, my man;)
You’re the first commenter to posit that this is satire. Not sure if it’s going over everyone else’s heads or you’re imagining things. Either way, I’m not worrying about it. I made this video years ago and haven’t thought about it or the game since.
I'm interested in this, but I hate it's human focus.