Is there way to genlock and timecode pro-consumer camcorders. If they all have SDI out can you feed them to an external device then to the switcher or does the switcher like BM have it included? Thanks for the awesome content!
There's no way to genlock cameras that don't have a genlock/reference input -- the camera has to be designed to do that from the beginning. Most modern video switchers have frame synchronizers to make up for this to some degree, but that does come with some down sides, namely longer latency (about a half frame on average) from those video sources compared to a genlocked source. Because timecode can be encoded into (and, indeed, is usually transported as) an audio signal, though, it can be added to any camera with an audio input, as demonstrated in this video.
Awesome content! Please correct me if I'm mistaken: Would genlock still be the only solution to avoid drift with long (hour+) multicam clips? My usecase would be embedded timecode via audio into 3 cameras (dslr so no genlock in my cams) and a fieldrecorder capturing live music shows. So I usually end up with three hour+ long videofiles from 3 cameras and the audio accordingly. I'm not sure if there is real benefit from something like Tentacle in my case if it only will align the clips fro the start which is not that time consuming manually either with only three clips. The drifting issue would still remain in the end of the clips. Is there any software based way or workaround to actually correct the drift between long video- and audiofiles?
You are correct. If you want to avoid drift cameras need to be genlocked. Timecode alone will not prevent that. Timecode can help you re-sync at edit points, but it won't keep things in sync on its own. There may be tools out there to fix sync for long clips, but I'm not familiar with any solutions for that.
@@djp_video Thanks! No easy way around it then. I guess the best I could do is like you mentioned just re-sync at edit points: cutting the long clips in pieces like song by song so each song (say 3 to 10 minutes) would have a synced start and not too much drift in the shorter timeframe, not perfection but close enough.
Hi, we record live concert (multiple cameras + audio multitrack), what could you recommend for this situation? how can we sync all these stuff together? I understand how it works with video recordings, but what to do with the audio? thanks
Record the timecode audio on a separate track along with all of your other audio channels and use the Tentacle Sync application to extract the timecode data so you can sync it up with the video.
You can't directly. If you can't change your camera settings to match those of the ATEM, you'll need a converter like the UpDownCross HD or a Decimator MD-HX. But the down side to that is that the image could very likely look strange with uneven motion.
Do you have to worry about balanced and unbalanced signals when connecting audio timecode? I see you using XLR (typically balanced) and 3.5 mm (typically unbalanced in my experience) somewhat interchangeably.
Yes, kind of... If you need to take a balanced signal and plug it into an unbalanced input (like the cameras with 3.5mm mic jacks) you need to make sure that your cable connects pin 2 of the XLR to the tip of the 3.5mm, pin 1 to the sleeve (ground), and that pin 3 is left unconnected. Going the other way can be more of an issue. The Tentacle Sync, for example, doesn't actually output a balanced signal. It puts timecode on the 3.5mm connector tip, ambient audio on the ring, and ground on the sleeve -- there's no reversed phase signal at all. The conversion cable you can buy or make takes the tip, connects that to pin 2 of the male XLR, and the sleeve (ground) to both pins 1 and 3. You wouldn't want to run that over long distances. It would be much better to run that into a DI box, transformer, distribution amplifier, or mixer to convert it to a balanced signal for longer runs. I'm able to get away with mixing and matching because the cables are short. In practice, I don't ever run the output of the Tentacle Sync to multiple devices -- they're always attached directly at the cameras. And that's more of a backup setup for me. My primary means of syncing is to use the output of my 2 M/E switcher and distribute that using Dante and XLR cables to cameras, or wirelessly using the IEM system.
Muchas gracias Dough ( Thanks a lot... ) , this solution to embeed timecode it is just amazing !! I will save a lot of post production time with this method.
I've always thought that to have a true sync, you need to have timecode and a reference signal (genlock). Similar to what the Hyperdeck Studio HD has. Am I wrong?
If you want the frame rate of multiple cameras to match over long periods of time you'd need Genlock. To line up different cameras in editing automatically, you need timecode. They're different problems with different solutions. Cameras synced with timecode can still drift apart from one another if the footage wasn't captured using Genlock, though these days that tends to not be as big a problem as it used to be. Cameras genlocked together but without timecode would have to be manually lined up with one another, but once this is done they wouldn't drift apart. If you have both Genlock and timecode you can have automatic syncing across multiple clips and they're guaranteed to stay in sync.
When I connect tentacle sync with one camera can I insert and remove for timecode to be jammed on the camera. Or I have to start rec with tentacle sync connected. If I stop recording then I have to connect the timecode device again?
If a camera doesn't natively support timecode, you just need to make sure that you have timecode on an audio input each time you start recording so their software can find and decode the starting timecode for the beginning of the clip. So you could connect the Tentacle Sync, start recording, leave it connected for a few seconds, and then disconnect. But if your camera automatically splits recordings into multiple files, or splits across multiple cards, the subsequent files won't have any timecode data in them. It's best to leave it connected whenever you can. If the camera does support timecode it will jam sync and then stay synced on its own so you can disconnect after syncing. Though it does help to re-sync periodically since there will be some drift.
If the cameras are far apart (such that audio is delayed on one or more) or if someone neglected to turn on the mic, yes. I have one camera operator who always turns off the audio because he doesn’t want to be recorded when he talks and he refuses to stop doing it.
@@djp_video got ya… I was asking because I didn’t understand why Netflix requires that for originals when they could simply use pluraleyes like I do. I love pluraleyes
Hello, I was wondering if there would be any issues using a 3.5 to 1/4 inch. I have an older Black Magic 4k production and there are only 1/4 mic inputs. Would this work with the right cable and the tentacle? Thank you
Ahh makes sense! Out of curiosity, since the timecode is audio base, I am assuming you have a separate vlan setup for this going through your fiber via Dante connectors right?
thanks for this thorough explanation. I love your channel and appreciate your being so generous sharing your time and expertise!
Doug, 😀👌you did it again! Awesome content! you're back baby!!!💥💫💥
thanks...
that was great
what can we do for quad quapters like dji mini2 that dosent capture voice and dosent have a timecode input?
You'll likely have to rely on old tried-and-true methods like slates
Is there way to genlock and timecode pro-consumer camcorders. If they all have SDI out can you feed them to an external device then to the switcher or does the switcher like BM have it included? Thanks for the awesome content!
There's no way to genlock cameras that don't have a genlock/reference input -- the camera has to be designed to do that from the beginning. Most modern video switchers have frame synchronizers to make up for this to some degree, but that does come with some down sides, namely longer latency (about a half frame on average) from those video sources compared to a genlocked source.
Because timecode can be encoded into (and, indeed, is usually transported as) an audio signal, though, it can be added to any camera with an audio input, as demonstrated in this video.
Awesome content! Please correct me if I'm mistaken: Would genlock still be the only solution to avoid drift with long (hour+) multicam clips? My usecase would be embedded timecode via audio into 3 cameras (dslr so no genlock in my cams) and a fieldrecorder capturing live music shows. So I usually end up with three hour+ long videofiles from 3 cameras and the audio accordingly. I'm not sure if there is real benefit from something like Tentacle in my case if it only will align the clips fro the start which is not that time consuming manually either with only three clips. The drifting issue would still remain in the end of the clips. Is there any software based way or workaround to actually correct the drift between long video- and audiofiles?
You are correct. If you want to avoid drift cameras need to be genlocked. Timecode alone will not prevent that. Timecode can help you re-sync at edit points, but it won't keep things in sync on its own.
There may be tools out there to fix sync for long clips, but I'm not familiar with any solutions for that.
@@djp_video Thanks! No easy way around it then. I guess the best I could do is like you mentioned just re-sync at edit points: cutting the long clips in pieces like song by song so each song (say 3 to 10 minutes) would have a synced start and not too much drift in the shorter timeframe, not perfection but close enough.
I love you man. Thanks.
Hi, we record live concert (multiple cameras + audio multitrack), what could you recommend for this situation? how can we sync all these stuff together? I understand how it works with video recordings, but what to do with the audio? thanks
Record the timecode audio on a separate track along with all of your other audio channels and use the Tentacle Sync application to extract the timecode data so you can sync it up with the video.
@@djp_video thanks, gonna try it
How to genlock cameras 30fps and 60fps together? Is it possible at all using some hardware like Mini Converter Sync Generator?
This is going to be tricky.
Why do you need to synchronize cameras that aren't running the same frame rate?
Doug, you da man! Thank you!
please how do i use different cameras with different frame rate on my atem television studio hd? Thank you sir
You can't directly. If you can't change your camera settings to match those of the ATEM, you'll need a converter like the UpDownCross HD or a Decimator MD-HX. But the down side to that is that the image could very likely look strange with uneven motion.
Do you have to worry about balanced and unbalanced signals when connecting audio timecode? I see you using XLR (typically balanced) and 3.5 mm (typically unbalanced in my experience) somewhat interchangeably.
Yes, kind of... If you need to take a balanced signal and plug it into an unbalanced input (like the cameras with 3.5mm mic jacks) you need to make sure that your cable connects pin 2 of the XLR to the tip of the 3.5mm, pin 1 to the sleeve (ground), and that pin 3 is left unconnected.
Going the other way can be more of an issue. The Tentacle Sync, for example, doesn't actually output a balanced signal. It puts timecode on the 3.5mm connector tip, ambient audio on the ring, and ground on the sleeve -- there's no reversed phase signal at all. The conversion cable you can buy or make takes the tip, connects that to pin 2 of the male XLR, and the sleeve (ground) to both pins 1 and 3. You wouldn't want to run that over long distances. It would be much better to run that into a DI box, transformer, distribution amplifier, or mixer to convert it to a balanced signal for longer runs.
I'm able to get away with mixing and matching because the cables are short. In practice, I don't ever run the output of the Tentacle Sync to multiple devices -- they're always attached directly at the cameras. And that's more of a backup setup for me. My primary means of syncing is to use the output of my 2 M/E switcher and distribute that using Dante and XLR cables to cameras, or wirelessly using the IEM system.
Muchas gracias Dough ( Thanks a lot... ) , this solution to embeed timecode it is just amazing !! I will save a lot of post production time with this method.
I've always thought that to have a true sync, you need to have timecode and a reference signal (genlock). Similar to what the Hyperdeck Studio HD has. Am I wrong?
If you want the frame rate of multiple cameras to match over long periods of time you'd need Genlock. To line up different cameras in editing automatically, you need timecode. They're different problems with different solutions.
Cameras synced with timecode can still drift apart from one another if the footage wasn't captured using Genlock, though these days that tends to not be as big a problem as it used to be. Cameras genlocked together but without timecode would have to be manually lined up with one another, but once this is done they wouldn't drift apart.
If you have both Genlock and timecode you can have automatic syncing across multiple clips and they're guaranteed to stay in sync.
@@djp_video So would it be safe to say that a DSLR camera cannot be fitted with timecode and genlock?
Gen lock, no. But if your camera has a microphone input you could take advantage of timecode, as demonstrated in this video.
When I connect tentacle sync with one camera can I insert and remove for timecode to be jammed on the camera. Or I have to start rec with tentacle sync connected. If I stop recording then I have to connect the timecode device again?
If a camera doesn't natively support timecode, you just need to make sure that you have timecode on an audio input each time you start recording so their software can find and decode the starting timecode for the beginning of the clip. So you could connect the Tentacle Sync, start recording, leave it connected for a few seconds, and then disconnect. But if your camera automatically splits recordings into multiple files, or splits across multiple cards, the subsequent files won't have any timecode data in them. It's best to leave it connected whenever you can.
If the camera does support timecode it will jam sync and then stay synced on its own so you can disconnect after syncing. Though it does help to re-sync periodically since there will be some drift.
Hi Doug, what is your opinion about the Dante Latency affecting the clock. Is the latency less than one frame etc?
Dante latency is a lot less than a frame. On my system it is typically 0.25-0.5ms. At 60fps, one frame of video is 16.67ms.
With pluraleyes do we really need timecode anymore?
If the cameras are far apart (such that audio is delayed on one or more) or if someone neglected to turn on the mic, yes. I have one camera operator who always turns off the audio because he doesn’t want to be recorded when he talks and he refuses to stop doing it.
@@djp_video got ya… I was asking because I didn’t understand why Netflix requires that for originals when they could simply use pluraleyes like I do. I love pluraleyes
Hello, I was wondering if there would be any issues using a 3.5 to 1/4 inch. I have an older Black Magic 4k production and there are only 1/4 mic inputs. Would this work with the right cable and the tentacle? Thank you
It would work just fine. You'd just need an adapter to convert.
Thank you for this and the quick reply! I will look to get the 3.5 to 1/4 cable. Thank you again!
Champion Doug
Nice to see you back...I was wondering I) is there an impact of delay with timecode across wireless?
No. With analog there's zero latency. With digital it will be so short that it will be far less than a frame of video.
@@djp_video Thanks, looking forward to your new studio setup videos.
Ahh makes sense! Out of curiosity, since the timecode is audio base, I am assuming you have a separate vlan setup for this going through your fiber via Dante connectors right?
All of my Dante audio is on its own separate VLAN. But that is more for convenience than out of necessity.