Cable Testing - are Audiophiles Right?
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In this video 'Cable Testing - are Audiophiles Right? ' I will show test the cables I use for Audio testing using the Omicron Lab Bode 100. #docablesmakeadifference #CableTesting #Bode100 #OmicronLab
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Hey Eddie, you need a bigger bench. No space to work due to all the instruments.
LOL - you are right!
I believe that in order for the tests to be useful to the audiophile you'll need a couple of additional inputs for plotting:
Mood
Placebo effect
LOL - perfect!!!
I've been talking to a surgeon about getting audiophile ears that can detect differences in cables. He tells me it's going to be expensive but I really want the best sound I can get!
😂🤣
LMAO - I'll bet the consultation was expensive - did he sell cables in the lobby?
@KissAnalog He's a "Sales Agent" for a Cable company on the side.
There is some context. If you have a low impedance source, (emitter follower, op-amp ect) and driving into a reasonable source resistance (10K-47K) with a cable with a length of ~1m or so, there is no effect for audio. So DAC to preamp, pre to power CD player streamer all these, forget it. However if your source impedance is a electro-magnetic generator (AKA moving coil / magnet Phono cartridge) then some cables will have an excess in capacitance that combined with the motor complex source impedance will have an effect within the audio range. Do you need to spend a lot on better cables, nah, cable and connectors are cheap, even the "good" stuff.
If you really need to spend cash on a connector then I highly recommend Southwest Microwave who make some great 1.0mm connectors, DC to 110GHz......
Thanks for the great feedback! I will look into their connectors;)
Largely, no. Amazing for fleecing muppets though ;)
Literally any wire with a load appropriate level of copper; And when it comes to signal level, coaxial format without wildly high capacitance, job done :)
The other thing that amuses me is that particular section of the audiophile crowd seldom stops to consider what all that music gets recorded and mixed on.
Oh, and another final one: the usually completely ignored room treatment factor.
Not unusal for folks to have the 'best setup in the world', and place it in a room that booms and echoes like mad. Damping down excessive room reflections, and notching out room resonances with bass traps or dsp is absolutely crucial for good sound reproduction, and for reducing listening fatigue.
Thanks for the tips! I appreciate you!
@@KissAnalog one other thing that comes to mind, the more objectively inclined high fidelity audio appreciators should give well made active monitors an open minded listening session. Each amp section designed to run each driver, fully isolated, and directly driven over a few centimeters of internal cable (look ! Mono blocks everywhere ! (And the 'best' even use discrete mosfets (though modern dmos tdas are stunningly good)). Also crystal clear active crossovers that don't screw up the amplifier coupling to the driver, or add colouration. Yet passive speakers still persist. Also, theres a lot to be said for passive radiators instead of ports, tune them *low* and you get the the transient response of a closed/infinite baffle speaker, with the bass reach of a ported box, in a compact cabinet with no port chuffing and so on. On that note, the old mackie hr series monitors popular in studios in the 90s and 2000s come to mind as an off the shelf 'budget' option for those not looking to burn a luxuary cars worth of money, and do pretty well out of the deal :)
Who knew speaker cables were RESISTIVE! Sweep them. No significant reactance in the audio range. P.T. Barnum was right, there's a sucker born every minute. If you want low loss, buy some low gauge copper jumper cables with lots of strands.
LOL Did P.T. Barnum have an Audiophile cable business?
This is why 16ga lamp "zip" cord from the bulk spool at the hardware store works so well as speaker wire. 14ga might be interesting if you have long runs or very high power subwoofer(s). 12ga isn't much more, so use it for silly excess to eliminate all doubt. Of course, it isn't NEC approved to run lamp cord thru the walls, so you shouldn't do that. Look for CL2 rated speaker wire. If you stay away from the big name brands, you won't pay big name prices to get big name performance. Go up one size if using copper-coated aluminum (CCA).
Thanks for your great feedback! I'll test speaker cables soon - that should be interesting!
Eddie you mislabeled the video, Cables are not the PROBLEM connectors ARE!!!
Poor Quality connectors can lead to bad Audio just like connectors on meters or scopes.
Yes, I think that is right - but first you have to trust the cables. Next we will find out how we can trust the connector.
I hope OSHA doesn't see your lab. I think you have exceeded to limit of how high you can stack gear. A safety cage is definitely in order if there is and avalanche. LOL.
LOL you are probably right;)
We find that QuantAsylum QA403 is a great piece of gear too! So are PicoScopes!
Yes they are!
Some audiophile cables use a shielded twisted pair with a screen terminated at one end, but you say that's nonsense. You live and you learn. p.s Perhaps skin effect might be a factor and croc clips will be horrible as the frequency becomes significant.
Thanks for your feedback! Shielding and terminating at one end can be useful - but when I said that I was talking about power cables;) Skin effect barely starts to come into affect in the audio frequency range.
I totally agree the audiofoolery is exposed right here however I would suggest a BNC is probably not a solution for a high powered audio amp for no other reason than its peak current capacity. Many fine wires make good meter probes and speaker wires
Thanks! Yes, you are right - these cables would be more appropriate for the interconnects. I'll have to do a side by side comparison to a nice set of interconnects.
Another interesting video with measurements! For years I have been using "interconnects" made of regular Neutrix RCA connectors and 1 metre of ordinary 75 Ohm coaxial cable. I have used the same cable, but terminated with 75 Ohm BNCs for SPDIF. I am not crazy enough to pay more than a few quid for bloody cables. Thanks Eddie!
Thanks for sharing! You have had it right for many years;)
When you turn around in the beginning of your video you really have to say, " oh didn't see you there, hey guys it's Eddie..."
Yes - you are right!
Cables nearly make no difference. The effects Audiofoolers use as snake oil can be something way beyond audio frequencies and probably over 1 mhz.
Yes, the cables show really no difference out to 1 MHz or more. I’m showing the full bandwidth of the Omicron Lab Bode 100 (40 MHz). This is really not even high frequency at 40 MHz - relative to what we deal with these days.
@@KissAnalogThat's precisely the argument one outlet based their findings on. Believe it, or not, they have "found" a correlation between radio frequency response and... "audible" characteristics of the interconnects "under test". Following that spirited presentation, firmly based on "science", I needed a surgical procedure to re-align my jaw- it dropped and hit the floor. I guess it's all down to feasibility. Say, Ltp and especially Vas topology, may well be responsible for the audible character of an amplifier and determine its objective sound quality, but an inerconnect can be made for pennies and cost a fortune! It's an alternative "upgrade" path, that does not require any knowledge, or a workshop, for those seeking improvement. Chrome exhaust and go faster stripes in a user friendly package, to an extent.
Audiophiles waste their money on expensive snake oil cables. Not me, I bought a big bottle of snake oil and I soak my cheap cables in it. Problem solved.
LOL - that's an amazing solution!! I wonder if you can sprinkle some on your speakers as well? ;)
@@KissAnalog Yeah, I have some snake oil in a spray bottle and I spritz my speaker drivers monthly. It gets rid of sibilance, which is quite ironic coming from a snake. :)
Hi Eddie, another excellent video, thank you so much for the great tutoring.😁💯
Glad you enjoyed it
Eddie, trying to shirt around transmission lines and Telegrapher equations makes the presentation disjointed and lacks technical information. Characteristic impedance is a combination of the DC resistance and complex Impedance. Your argument about the DC resistance being the primary factor for cable response in the audio range is very important, but it loses its importance in the disjointed presentation. I'm sorry, but there is reflections at each point where the cable changes from coaxial to parallel to twisted configurations. My recommendation is do not shy away from the mathematics and video length to demonstrate your technical point.
Thanks - you are right! I kept trying to shorten it - as it was about twice as long. I was hoping it made sense. I'll have to do a short video explaining the science/math to couple with this video.
Eddie, coaxial cable is easy and convenient to use. Coax provides an excellent electric field path for the guided wave, but the wave travels in the material between the center conductor and the outer shield. My recommendation for low frequency cables (frequency < 100 KHz) is twisted shielded pairs with the shield terminated at the source end only. The twisting reduces the magnetic field by reducing the size of the loop, and the shield reduces the electric field by decreasing the capacitance. A good source of information on transmission lines and interference coupling is in chapter 4 of Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility by Dr. Clayton Paul.
Man, how do I contact you? I have a Marantz DAC and I want someone to change out a couple voltage regulators to lower the noise and clean the power even more.
Do you do stuff like that ? Can I send it to you? I can’t find a good tech in California who will do that for me.
Cheers
The hint is you cannot find a tech dishonest enough to rip you off. I could fit some $10,000 regulators for you. Don't bother testing anything afterwards. Your instruments will not be sensitive enough. Rely on your ears and think of the cost. God audiophiles make it is so easy.
@Nightjar726 Why do you think you need low noise regulators? @mbak7801 might be right. What is the Part Number? I'd like to look at the schematic. You can always email me: KissAnalog@gmail.com
@@KissAnalog thanks man. I emailed you and the service manual so you can look at the schematic. I so appreciate it
Audiofools are quite funny.
I'd have to agree;) But, I think we need to take back the name Audiophile;)
To check a cable you need a signal injected and then measure the other end with a spectrum analyzer for signal loss. Not all 50 ohm cables are equal at a given frequency, I use a spectrum analyzer to test cables.
Thanks for the feedback! what frequencies do you look at? Most Spectrum Analyzers don't go down less than 9 kHz.
Typical coaxial interconnect cables exhibit characteristic impedance and Vp which are related to conductor diameters and spacings and dielectric behaviours.
Conductors and dielectrics (IE cables) exhibit low level noise behaviours which drive interconnected equipment intrinsic excess noise behaviours.
System overall noise behaviour (timbre/signature/voicing) is the complex product of these noise sources complex interactions.
IOW expect audio systems to sound (at least subtly) different according to cabling.
Standard sinewave testing cannot and will not discriminate system dynamic excess noise behaviours.
Eddie this video is just plain barking up the wrong tree and does nothing to disprove what educated ears know well, sorry about that.
And BTW, please comprehend that noise is actual information and is anything but white, once this concept is taken on board then fuller understanding of multiple octave range audio system behaviours is starkly revealed.
Lecture over, I hope you learned something today.
Lectur eon what? Noise behaviour? What is that exactly? Combination of overheard jargon and conjecture to arrive at a "proof" of a vaguely stated thesis? You can do better than that.
Your post has reminded me about "Fashionable Nonsense" by Alan Sokal. This book was a good laugh. I have to read it again.
Thanks for your feedback. Music does contain complex waveforms - but all within the 20 kHz bandwidth, so if there is no impedance in a cable - it doesn't matter what music you listen to - the cable will not interact. Simple as that.
@@KissAnalogCorrect, in the audio bandwidth cable characteristic impedance interactions are not a factor.
However cable noise interactions with system intrinsic noise are way more important than is generally realised.
The dynamic complex noise resulting at system output is formally termed 'excess noise' and is a physics subject in itself.
The production of system excess noise can be altered/reduced by filtering at system input, Bybee Quantum Purifier is one example of commercially available filtering device.
Cables are indeed quantum filters also, the magnitude and the nature of the filtering is according to the materials used in the DUT cable.
This is the elephant in the room that sine testing does not reveal.
So in answer to your video question, yes audio professionals are correct in findings of cables altering system sounds, this is to be expected because physics.
I have not found way to discriminate cable 'sounds' real time but comparison of
loopback recordings does reveal very interesting differences according to DUT cables.
@@paulb4661Please study up on '1/f noise' and 'excess noise'. You're welcome.
To be contentious I have made interconnects using the likes of RG174 for audio, a disaster. Ordinary audio gear you might have a source impedance of a few kilohms and a load of perhaps 47 kilohms. The system sees the interconnect as primarily a capacitor across the signal path. A friend is a bit of a crazy audiophile, at one point I did persuade him to try twisted pairs taken from CAT5 cable between his CD player and amplifier (plenty of signal so hum is not a big problem) and he was surprised by the better treble. Of course using 50 ohm cable with a low Z source and a Hi Z load you can easily see where the cable apparently exhibits gain. (Particularly when the cable is electrically an odd number of quarterwaves long).
Try perhaps your swept frequency test into a Hi-Z scope with no termination load.
Thanks for your feedback! I should try a RG174 cable - I don't think I've every used one one of those for Audio. The Audio signal, albeit small - is not as small as the RF that RG174 is typically used for. It is a small diameter cable...I'll have to look into this.
@@KissAnalog thanks for the reply, the point was more that a cable like RG174 has a capacitance of about 100pF/m.
With audio the characteristic impedance does not get in the way so much because relative to a wavelength the cables are very short. Generally with audio work "ports" are not impedance matched to the cables.
Audiophiles do like to imagine all sorts of effects from interconnects but an impedance matched test is not a representation of how we wire audio equipment.
P.S I have a NanoVNA a fantastic piece of test equipment for a multitude of RF applications. One thing to be wary of is the limited number of data points if you overly "zoom" existing data instead of doing another sweep.
Not having a pop, but it is not a great tool to test audio cables.
Audiophiles are always right.😊
The problem is they don't have the technical skills to understand why.
The testing on speaker cables has all the wrong focus!
It is not the cable that should be tested in isolation.
Audiophiles sometimes can hear and it is actually in some cases rather high difference!
But in other and in majority of systems there is more or less no difference, that's why we have two camps.
It is not that some has golden ears and others haven't.
They used different systems!
(Even if they used the exactly the same speaker cable, you see where this is going.😂)
So everyone can see that it is not the speaker cable that should be tested.
It is maybe a frequency sweep trough a certain combination of power amp and speaker (a system). With different cables.
It is the ability of the Poweramp (damping factor) to drive a variable speaker load (remember resistance is varying with frequency on a speaker).
And we have energy from the Poweramp that drive the coil out in the magnetic field.
That is punching it from the resting position where the spider and the surround is trying to drag it back.
When the coil goes back in the magnetic field that the stored energy in the spider and surround has.
Then it generates power like a dynamo that power is sent back to the Poweramp.
So that is happening with all systems but some speakers is more demanding and some some Poweramp handle this not that good..
That combination makes it easier to hear difference between cables.
Then we have speaker cables that has a box in the middle of the wire. Typically for transparent cables.
It contains a RLC filter to help out and you can also tell transparent what speakers and Poweramp you use and they can tune the filter for that combo. So it match better..😅
So testing one components from a whole system is pointless. If you want to find out if there is a difference in speaker cables.
The right way to look at it is that in that specific system there is (or not) a hearable difference between cable A and B.
Totally wrong test bed and metrology to just looking at a wire. That is pulled out of it context.❤
Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.
I do have to contradict you though - but this is exactly the proper context. Putting a bunch of parts together and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't is an impossible journey - thus the audiophile world as it is today.
I'm not actually talking about speaker cables - but more interconnects. Small signal cables.
The tests here show that the signals are absolutely flat in impedance, so they will not react different in any system - they offer o response.
I even show how the high frequency considerations that people talk about - do not even have any effect at the low frequency - which audio is. And at these low frequencies the resistance is in the milliohms.
These cables would be essentially invisible in the system. Super low DC resistance - flat impedance. Reflections and other High Frequency issues are nonexistent in audio - as I have shown here.
Regarding speaker cables - I'll do a video on those in the future. Since they are in the signal path - as is the interconnects - but also have power - there will be more to test. I'll also test actual interconnects as well:)
Audiophiles will tell you that unless your cables are cryogenically treated, and installed directionally, that your measurements don't matter.❤❤❤
I am tired of all Audiophiles being grouped together....just dumb...really
What do you call one audiophile. 'Dumb'. What is the collective term 'Dumber'. I am amazed they have the intellect to remember to breath. It is so laughable. To be fair though they are so dumb that it is easy to make a lot of money out of them.
@audiojunkabus I agree. I think we should take back the name Audiophile and maybe name the others Audiophools There are a number of options:)
@DW11111 you are right! LOL I did have a mix of new and burned in cables;)
@mbak7801 You are right - I have thought of a number of money makers - but it just isn't right;)
Again I can't figure out what you're doing, if you notice a difference in cables you have to listen and if you can't hear a difference you should just be happy that you don't have that problem.
Many people have messed around with impedance and reflections, and skin effect, you won't find the explanation there.
A short summary, first a link to impedance in a cable that shows that impedance matching makes no sense and our hifi is not designed for this.
i0.wp.com/hallmanlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/impedance.png?resize=548%2C357&ssl=1
Regarding cables, there is a rule of thumb that says if the cable is shorter than 1/10 of the transmitted frequency wavelength, you do not need to see the cable as a transmission line, in short you do not need to worry about reflections.
The wavelength at 20KHz = lambda = v/f -->. 3^8*0.66/20^3 = 9900 metres, the two ends of our cable can in this context be considered as a point and you do not need to take reflections into account. Ps the 0.66 is because a signal is not transmitted at the speed of light in a cable but typically at about 66% of this.
It's interesting how similar this is to acoustics but with a much lower speed of 344m/sec and it gives us problems with reflections in our rooms.
Thanks for your feedback. You are correct, Skin effect and reflections simply are not a thing for the audio range. An audio cable transfers the audio signal - which is not effected by so many things that people have tried to say it is - and by making expensive cables to improve on these things.
I am showing by testing that impedance, amoung other things - is also not an issue in the audio band.
If the signal can get from point A to point B without being changed - the cable makes no difference.
I can measure things that you can not hear - but no one can show that they can hear something that we can not measure. There have been a number of challenges - one for 1 Million dollars - and no takers.
There is nothing wrong with the placebo effect - so why refute its importance. Let others save their money and buy better speakers;)
@@KissAnalog Everything you can measure is covered by theory, including cables, everything is predictable.
If you have the necessary theoretical basis, you should know that this is so.
That's why I'm surprised you're making all these videos, according to theory, even the cheapest cable would be able to transmit the audio signal perfectly.
But as mentioned, people hear plenty of sound differences even in blind tests that shouldn't be there according to theory, it's a problem that doesn't stop at cables, but includes all passive components, which makes the problem very interesting and not least crucial, because much of the heard difference between mediocre hifi and high-end revolves around this plus of course measurable technical performance.
Manufacturers typically promise nothing, it's all storytelling where they praise the materials they use, their meticulous manufacturing, the damping of the cable etc.
You don't see any measurements other than RLC or G, a few also provide velocity factor.
The manufacturers don't have a theoretical explanation for the sound differences either, which is why you don't see any measurements showing that one manufacturer's cable transmits the signal much better than the competition, because that's not the case if the cable is made reasonably well.
But in advertising they are forced to say something that sells, it's not enough to say that our cable is much better than the competition and it only costs $700, buy it, it doesn't sell.
That's why there's so much storytelling in the industry, I agree with that and it's not just about cables but all hifi, but I think that applies to most industries.
I wrote a longer post about the 1 million challenge in another thread, so I won't repeat that, I'll just ask again why are you making these videos, I think it would be perfectly ok if they were educational videos explaining cable theory.
But my impression and what I feel is that you use these videos to piss on serious working and knowledgeable people, as I said I do not know why you Amir and Audioholics and others are so obsessed with this, spend so much time on it, you should instead enjoy all the money you save and stop judging others knowledge and listening experiences.
But I'm pretty sure you can hear cable differences with the right hifi system and with the right music.
I found a small video that illustrates the differences you can also experience on cables, the difference may seem small, but in the long run it is crucial. ruclips.net/user/shortsOAx24rdnJpQ
The price of good sound is also illustrated in the video, however, I agree that the prices of cables can be downright absurd, but we have a free market and no compulsion to buy.
I can't believe you think that theory explains everything - but yet you have a 'belief' that there is a sound difference in cables. Your own logic is illogical.
We engineers measure everything - and that's how we correlate our design decisions - with the final product. Some parts do make a difference - and we can measure that - and it is measured. There is different types of noise that comes from different types of components. copper is not one of them. But cables can effect the signal as physics come into play. There is not magic in design - it is science.
I am showing these measurements to investigate cables - as I want to see if there is something that we have overlooked. Engineers do not just 'believe' in science - we have to investigate - and sometimes we find anomalous features or phenomena that was unexpected - then we do further investigation to see what or how that was caused. This is science - learning thru investigation.
Placebo Effect = belief = Placebo Effect = belief...
There are no double blind tests proving anyone can hear a difference. This is why the same people that use measurements to show the difference in such things as speakers do not or can not show any measurement that would change the sound. This is where marketing comes in to take advantage of people's 'belief' systems.
@@KissAnalog The problem is that on a transparent system with the right music and experienced listeners, sound differences are heard on cables and other passive components that cannot be explained by theory and measurement.
It is experienced as a difference in timbre, more or less perceived resolution, and more or less lifelike soundstage.
I repeat, everything we can measure is typically something that will be irritating to our ears, noise, THD etc.
In the very old days, DIN 45500 was used to set the technical requirements so that a device should not affect what we hear.
The requirements were relatively low, something like 1 per cent THD etc. but tests today show that our ears are exceptionally bad at detecting what measuring instruments can measure. That's part of the conflict.
If hifi was only about what can be measured, DIN 45500 would be just fine and Amir from ASR would be absolutely right that the only thing that has a significant impact on the sound is the speakers.
As we know, these technical standards for hifi no longer exist because they don't tell us anything about the sound we hear.
You will realise this when you reach a certain hi-fi level and you are also a technician and may have designed your own equipment.
My own experience is that the choice of material determines a large part of the sound, it can be measured especially at high frequencies, but we cannot link it to a change in the audio signal.
This is the essence of the conflict between hi-fi enthusiasts, some have this insight I have described but still deny there are sound differences, these are ASR Audioholics and others, whether the reason for this is that they have not experienced sound differences that cannot be explained immediately, I do not know, but it is a likely explanation, although I think if you have worked seriously with high end it should not be possible.
Others trust 100% in what they hear and do not realise it is technically not possible.
Ps Don't know if you misunderstand me, I use a translator, but hope you understand I agree that technically I and others should not hear the sound differences we claim, but we do it anyway in blind tests, so the logic is there, but we obviously have different listening experiences.