see, this is my reason for why the no mercy path is justified, not the genocide. because in the no mercy run, you kill things that try to kill you. but in the genocide run, you're actively trying to kill everything.
Zandberg X Toriel wants to keep you in the ruins forever, despite the fact that you actively told her you wanted to go home. That's literally called unlawful imprisonment. Papyrus originally attempted to "capture you" with electric mazes, Piranha infested waters, and other likely lethal puzzles. It's called assault and kidnapping. And please, Tell me if your mindset would be ok if you fell down at least 1000 ft(cause a mountain is at least 1k feet for it to be considered to be a mountain), met a "friendly Flower" who then beats you to the brink of death, then proceeds to meet dozens of monsters who want you dead just so they can kill 7.8 billion more. How exactly is it wrong for the humans to kill monsters that THREATEN the human?
Zandberg X wJust because you have the option to run away =/= it is unjustified. I CAN not shoot a home intruder, but it's not unjustified if I don't do so. The monsters of the Underground are CLEARLY evil and attempt to kill you.
@@gamer4life592 he explicitly says that he doesn't know what happens next in his neutral dialog, and that's the only time he actually tries to capture us.
@@knucklesofficial9213 that's... not helping? Our lack of trust and/or understanding doesn't serve as a basis for murdering the guy. Let alone the fact that him being fleshless, while intimidating, doesn't provide any insight to who he actually is. Furthermore, you're asking me that question, and I trust him as a player because he literally is willing to die and still believe in us after risking his life just to find some redemption in this person who's killed everyone up until then.
5:20 Err... If you are on a no mercy run, then he immediately spares you, saying that he can be your friend and steer you away from your dangerous path.
Okay, everyone, all Papyrus wants is to impress Undyne, either way, he is very naive, so he probably doesn't even know how much it could hurt you! He is like a little child, has no clue what they are doing.
Am I the only one that didnt know "proving you were strong enough" to toriel was gonna kill her. like I thought she was just gonna let me go but she died and now I feel really bad
Yeah, she never tried to kill you either, once your hp get low enough, she actively tries to miss you. I think that it’s only in hard mode that you can die to her. Where Toriel was clumsy and was shocked of what she did.
Toriel just wanted to keep you safe from Asgore. Papyrus just wanted to impress Undyne. Undyne just wanted to stop you from killing anyone else. Mettaton just wanted to stall you so the other monsters could evacuate. Sans just wanted you to leave the undertale timelines alone. But you? ...you just wanted to complete the game.
Gusiguess dude I’m justifying why you can kill them nothing else. I’m not justifying why you should murder all of them cause you clearly don’t in the genocide run.
@@erynncollier8672 Anyone know the Undertale song Way Way Deeper Down? Sans in the song states quite clearly: If I’m being honest, my brother ain’t not but harmless.
The Good Demon how do we know the human is trying to kill them all first off because that’s the problem with this subject is that not many people take the perspective of the human who has fallen and no knowledge of these creatures/monsters But hey it’s your opinion
Am I the only nerd who decoded the Wingdings at the end of the video? xD it's "HE HAS GONE TOO FAR. THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES." if I'm not mistaken. I tried to go through all the comments to check if anyone else noticed that but I gave up after the first 100 or so lmao
6:13 I like how he leaves out the part where you literally attempt to murder an innocent child, who is then saved by undyne. 5:43 Also, Papyrus straight up says that he wants to teach you how to be kind and to not kill. Not to mention that all non boss monsters can be spared if you get their health low enough, meaning that even if you do attack, you can still end things peacefully. Plus, some monsters like whimsum don't want to fight, and can be spared immediately.
Maybe after all times when monsters attempted to kill Frisk, it actually expected anything from Papyrus to happen. So Frisk would be truly sure that it won't be captured.
@@theceoofeggmansempire5214 But first he explains to you that you need to turn back it’s not too late to be good and that he still wants to be your friend. You killed even after he explained that, which is pure murder.
Yes you rite that like you bihing atack by a spider so now you sood make all the spiders go poof. No mater how you poot it you steel jast cost a genocide to apend that is never a good. There is a sehing that the rode to hell is made by good intensens. No mater what you say killing is killing no mater what your intensens.
@@Adam-wg2rf Everyone: You need to look at the human’s perspective! Me: The human’s Perspective? The human’s perspective? Frisk got bored of Pacifist and got curious of the Genocide ending. Yeah, that’s their perspective!
"Maybe the human doesn't know that you can spare others." I would agree to that if Toriel didn't say in the beginning of the game that you can talk to monsters instead of killing them
@@ExDixionconderogaThe only bosses who work like that are Toriel,Papyrus and Asriel Mettaton can be finished early if you get required rating so i dont count him
Toriel's point was to stall for time until she arrives to resolve the encounter for the human, like she does with the first Froggit we encounter by staring at them intimidatingly. Despite being told to stay in that hallway where she leaves us, and where we may actually wait long enough for her to pick us up, we a) still a human, and presumably a child, whose curiosity or anxiety might get the better of them and drive them to go into the ruins alone, and b) considering that Flowey attacked us the very first moment we've been in and tried to deceive us to do so, what credit of trust any monster's word has to the human at that point in time to stay alone and wait for unspecified amount of time? Not a lot, when you are alone in the dark, where creatures you do not phatom reside, and might be driven also by cold, hunger or fear.
UT's genocide route feels almost like an inverse creepypasta game. The game goes like any normal creepypasta game, where you try to run away and escape the threat. However this threat always finds you, and murders you. In Undertale this same logic applies, except you're the threat, and everyone tries to run away and escape you. But just like every creepypasta game, if you go with it, the threat wins. You win.
... Or do you? You see, the creepypasta formula is incomplete. We don't know what happens to the game's universe after the threat proved they were stronger than us in a regular creepypasta game. In Undertale however, this gap is filled up to a point. A power greater than the threat, which may or may not be a part of the threat themselves, arises, and either punishes or drives the threat insane once they have nothing else to destroy. It's up to interpretation.
I've seen a Chara .EXE creepypasta game somewhere, however it's more like spoopypasta. A true UT-based creepypasta game would be one that puts you in Alphys's shoes as a Genocide run is taking place. Because you can't murder Alphys in-game, it's more hopeful... Or maybe even more nightmarish. You see, Alphys will have to remember her Amalgamates AND the death of monsterkind forever. And in case that isn't bad enough, let's talk resets. This is all just a bad dream, and she's never waking up. If she could remember, which for a creepy setting, let's just give ourselves some artistic freedom, let's just say she does, it's torture, especially if we asume the kid enjoys murder and never changes their mind, resets take place inmediately after the genocide run ends and we see the intro again, and that Alphys can't feel or see the 5 minutes the game gets stuck in the black screen.
***** The best of it all, is that due to everyone else not remembering, nobody else can understand Alphys's pain. At one point we could see her jump into the abyss at the area with the endless cycle of worthless garbage. She commits suicide, only to wake up again, in her bed, in a brand new RESET. Only to realise not even death can save her. In fact, this is how Sans is theorized to feel. However I don't think he can remember. He speaks about time anomalies in the geno route like he knows they exist, but it doesn't look like he can experience those anomalies personally. "That look on your face..." He's just good at reading you.
One problem with that, though. In the Genocide Run, Papyrus spares you immediately, with no intent of fighting you. By this logic there is no justification for killing him under the circumstances you describe.
The thing is I want to agree. But I can’t. None of these murders are justified. The reason being is that in the Genocide route you are the bad guy (Sans attacks first when you usually do, signaling that you are the boss).
That’s neutral route bud. In every boss fight in Genocide you attack first (minus sans, but at that point he has a reason). Toriel was trying to protect you, Papyrus is actually trying to bargain with you in Genocide, and you one shot Undyne before she even attacks. Murder is only justified when your killing the bad guy or they are attacking you.
@@huddyYT but thinking about what underlab stated, from the human's perspective, it has a reason to attack despite attacking first or not: killing toriel in order to be free again and not being captured in the ruins, killing papyrus so he doesn't bring you to undyne, killing undyne in order to survive since she really insists on you dying for the monsters' sake. had the human not killed these bosses, it wouldn't survive either, which leads to asgore getting all 7 souls and declaring war on humanity. plus the undyne-one-shot wasn't actually targeted at undyne, it was targeted at the monster kid but she intervened.
Problems: Pacifist: From a human's perspective, the monsters are playing genocide at first. From a monster's perspective, they are defending themselves, stopping when they realized you are friendly/neutral and is reluctant to fight back. Neutral: From a human's perspective, the monsters are killing machines. From a monster's perspective, it is an act of self-defense, and also you are a human, and humans should die. Genocide: From a human's perspective, it is an act of self-defense. From a monster's perspective, the humans are nuclear bombs. And here's why: Basic History: Humans fear the monster's ability to absorb a human SOUL, possessing incredible powers. They declared war on monsters and won. Monsters got sealed in a huge rock cave with a magic barrier, which allow only ones with human souls can cross. The monsters believe that all humans are the creatures with the intent of killing every last one of them and wants to avoid that by killing them first. The idea became a dominant piece of their mind when Asriel died because of humans. Asgore declares war once more on humans, saying "Every humans that enters here, shall never leave with their bodies."just to gain hope once more among the monsters. Toriel disagrees and attempts to prevent humans from leaving the RUINS, because she knows that if you leave, you die to ASGORE. And when you do die to asgore, he goes to break the barrier and revenge on humanity for the murder of his son. By blocking you from venturing to the rest of the Underground, Toriel is saving both humans and monsters from dying to another war. Except that all monsters would be dead, including herself.
@@turkepic3637 Keep in mind that the character you are playing as is a human child who comes from the modern world where monsters are considered fictional and also beings that are to be feared. Children are the most helpless of the human species as they lack knowledge, empathy, and understanding of the world around them and if tf they do end up in a dangerous situation where someone tells you they want to kidnap and kill you then you have every right to get away from them by what ever means necessary. In reality if a child entered a world like this they be freaked out of their minds to the point they would start killing these monsters even more so since they repeatedly threaten how much they want to kidnap and kill you along with other humans not to mention have already killed 6 other children who ended up there. So, yes Genocide is still justifiable.
@@CynderSpirit no , genocide is still not justified. Are you sane? Children have the ability to emphasize , they do have some knowledge , though they lack general understanding of the world. If a child gets freaked out , escaping would be first priority. Not MURDER. If we eliminate player , the most used option would be flee until Toriel. Now that's a hard one. Killing Toriel might be justified IF there is no resets happening to this point. Heck even so , I give it a pass. Every boss fight is Okay. I don't understand what is genocide in Undertale and irl. You don't defend yourself. You spend time looking for the enemy. You LOOK for them to KILL them. For another problem. Frisk's age and backstory. Age matters because knowledge of a 6 year old differs massively from 12 year old and will effect the results. Frisk's background , were they raised in a dangerous environment or were they in a wealthy and happy family ? There is no "one type of human", as you might know too. A human has so many variables that deciding is impossible. But how genocide works , doesn't change. You will actively search for monsters , and destroy them. Also , in genocide papyrus will ACTIVELY spare you , a HUMAN let alone a child would accept it , especially if they are aware of wtf is reset. Again , Frisk's age complicates how "aware" they are. But just imagine someone offering a hug to your messed up mind to cure it and you murder him with cold blood with one punch and keep this face (-_-). Yeah , what a child would do irl.
@@turkepic3637 Flowey offered us friendly pellets that tried to kill us and he acted friendly at first, why should the character trust other monsters not to do the same after knowing that they very well want to capture and kill you. Not to mention 6 other children have also died in their world and nobody cared about them dieing in fact Undyne along with many other monsters most likely participated in their killing. Not to mention these monsters also threaten to destroy humanity once they get out of the underground after they took your soul in order to do so. You are also allowed to kill in self defense if that is what it takes in order to get away, children are taught this at very early age, Toriel blocks you and attacks you to the point she could very well kill you, to some children they would have tooken what she was saying or doing as kidnapping. I also never said kids could not emphasize I said they lack it. This video explains it more ruclips.net/video/0qguH8Jd0GQ/видео.html
Tuxedobird and how is it unjustified? The human is only killing monsters that threatened them and the human cannot kill the monsters without the monsters initiating their battle phase first.
Tuxedobird That’s literally a self contradiction?p. If someone tried to kill you, how can you kill innocents if they aren’t innocent? And how exactly are the monsters innocent? They declared war on the humans just because their king’s children died because Chara poisoned themselves so Asriel can absorb their soul, and the humans killed Asriel because they assumed that he killed Chara. If killing 7.8 billion humans just because they acted out of self defense is considered to be innocent, then why is the human’s actions unjustified just because they merely killed over 100, which is like a small portion of the monster race, judging by how many souls Asriel released when he broke the barrier.
Junzhuo Zhong Yeah, But frisk doesn’t know this. Frisk in this case would be immediately trying to kill someone. Also, in this run you hunt them down, so really they’re the ones using self-defense.
That is true, I do not deny that, however, the human cannot actively kill the monsters unless the monsters were the ones to first initiate the encounter. So every monster that the human killed was because the monsters WILLINGLY wanted to Fight(and kill) the human. At best, the human is simply challenging someone to a duel and the monster is making the duel happen by supplying the weapons and the area they can fight in. And like I said, how is it unjustified for the human to hunt down monsters, the same monsters who want to do the same thing to humans but on an even higher scale?
I never played undertale, but if I did I would be straight pacifist, no killing whatsoever, no hitting whatsoever, I would have done like 50 pacifist runs.
Probably. But what do I do? I can’t delete the game, or the timeline gets deleted too. So are you saying I should just let it sit in my computer and take up space? Yeah. Probably.
whoah, whoah, I was all for it until you said the (blue) magic word. "Papyrus". Papyrus is only "Hell-bent" on capturing you because it is his dream to join the royal guard, he says when he captures you, he will send you to the capital... and he doesn't know what happens next, heck, he probably doesn't even know what the royal guard does, also, he poses no threat what-so-ever, he doesn't even kill you, he just.... puts you in a shed.... that... you can easily escape from.... and even if you keep losing to him he just lets you go past, I mean I could understand the argument, "but he's trying to kill me so i'll kill him" if it was actually happening to you, but even when you attack him, when he's left with only a small amount of hp, he says something along the lines of "ok you win, you can spare me now". So either way, you basically are never FORCED to kill Papyrus.
also, right before the fight, after you've done some of his goofy (yet quite dangerous) puzzles he tells you things about himself, right before you fight him, he explains how he would like to be your friend but dismisses the idea, because then he wouldn't be able to be a royal guard, during the fight he says how he is starting to become reluctant to fight you, this is assuming a neutral run.
A psychopath can apply this sort of logic to killing anyone in real life. Really, Sans admits that self-defense would be justified, but he doesn't understand why his harmless brother would be murdered.
Gary Correia True, but there is still judicious use of force to consider. For most monsters it is possible to spare them by weakening them rather than killing them.
when a monster kills a human because they think they r weak but if the human attacks back and the monsters realize the humans is actually stronger than they think the human is so they go crazy
@Filip Nikolic Why wouldn't you? Besides, nothing happens after you get out of the barrier. The only option is to reset. Maybe Sans knows that and that is why he only fights you in genocide, as in any other run you are just going to go back and therefore it doesn't matter what you did.
@@rubyboi5819 Absolutely. I paid for the whole game, and so I'm going to play the whole game. It's not a matter of killing, but to experience each ending-pacifist, neutral, and genocide-for ourselves. You're becoming oversensitive to creatures that exist in a two dimensional, fictional realm. Plus, the Sans duel is pretty badass.
Rebuttal: Killing Shyren is necessary for the genocide run. Her battle entrance specifically mentions her hiding in a corner yet encountering you anyway. Her attacks are completely pathetic, purposely so, unless you take the steps needed to spare her.
I admit I didn't look at every minor character individually! This video is really why you can kill "mostly" every monster guilt free, though I really couldn't find a way to make that into a concise or interesting title :P
Actually, when you assume that the monsters will be a part of an army that will try to attack humanity it is doubtlessly justified and the blame falls on the government that has such a stated purpose and has already killed 6 humans. They never make it clear who killed the humans and the fallen child has no way of knowing. Being constantly attacked justifies on top of the fat that SHE DAMAGES THE CHILD AND CAN KILL HIM. There is no real way to argue away from this without confusing what the player knows and what the fallen child in a "genocide run" would know. The child only knows he/she is in danger and no sane system of ethics would say "You must show great patience with people trying to kill you."
Heart2Heartnet24: To be fair, it's implied that attacks to the soul have never been used before or even known to humans. Frisk has to learn what determination even is.
there's one thing you didn't justify. the fact that, in the genocide route, papyrus spares you. he doesn't attempt to capture you at all in the fight. he doesn't attack you. only sparing you
micheal has rosen Sparing means nothing. He set human-traps (that are deactivated by flowey in the genocide run), so he already shown his will to block my way and take me to undyne who will kill me. And now he cowardly wants to run away ? That's no good. Even worse, Sans one shot you when you spare him; that means that Frisk let himself open to attack when he spares. Knowing that, he'd NEVER spare.
Snipfragueur actually Papyrus’s traps don’t harm you in any ways. And when he defeats you he merely places you in an unlocked shed. He never harms you in any way that proves fatal. Monster kid asks if you are as bad as everyone says. He doesn’t attack you no matter what. He is literally a kid who wants to know if you are evil. And Frisk attacks him.
Nicholas Ali The electric maze kinda hurt tho... and he didn't expect you to escape. He isn't nice, he is just stupid. And Frisk never touch Monster Kid. He aims at Undyne. There is no way Undyne can be fast enough to intercept Frisk's attack, or there wouldn't even be a fight against a monster with this kind of speed. Therefore, we can only assume that Frisk is aiming at Undyne.
+Blaze Blockade It never forces you to. You have a choice when you encounter Monster Kid in Genocide runs. You either spare him or try to kill him too and Undyne steps in to save him. The game never forces the player to kill anyone in this game and even encourages you not to. Not even Asgore. Not even Flowey. There are times where you'll have to fight. But fighting is not synonymous with killing.
I have something against this. When you fight the glad Dummy in genocide he is well glad and has no content in attacking you. But you still kill him. Not very "justifiable". Also that's just messed up! After he finds happiness you have to kill him! And people say sans death was sad...
Gabriel DeMarco in undertale, mad dummy knows you are genocidal. He/she becomes so angry they transfix or become fully corporeal or something and become glad dummy.
Exactly! A no mercy run. The explination in the video doesn't justify grinding for kills, killing monster kid who never attacks. If it's truely in self defence only then you would never achieve a genocide run, and even Sans won't attack you. Almost certain he even says that the player acted in self defence but could that the player might have a certain power to change their actions! Totally agree with you.
*HOLD IT!* And what exactly is wrong with shuffling around aimlessly for extended periods of time? Remember, you will still get encounters if you pace the same spot over and over, meaning the monsters themselves are the ones seeking you out, not the other way around! They are coming at you with intent to kill, you're merely defending yourself! And Monster Kid... sure, he seems harmless, but you know who else seemed harmless? Flowey. Right before he puts you on the brink of death in an instant. How do we even know he's a kid, anyways? Sure, he's small, but there's plenty of even smaller monsters that we don't just assume to be kids. Face it, the only reason we even assume him to be a kid is because he's called that by the game! And need i remind you that Frisk was perfectly happy to live and let live, right up to the point when monster kid himself confronts him, and declares his intention to fight! Speaking of which, shall I go down the list of other monsters Frisk was perfectly happy to let live? Gerson, The Temmie Shopkeeper, Burgerpants... Boy, for a genocidal maniac, Frisk sure seems friendly to people that aren't brazenly trying to kill or trap him. He even struck up a friendly conversation with a couple of them. What a deranged psycho.
@@VeryPeeved At The Save Points, You Literally Have A Number Of Monsters You Have To Kill: I.E.: "40" In Hotland. You, The Player, Controlling Frisk, Are Literally Hunting Down Monsters. Plus, Justify How, When We Enter A Fight With Shyren, It Says "Shyren Is Standing In A Corner"? WE Attacked First. If You Don't Grind, The Monsters Don't Attack, Only The Ones That Already Attacked.
@@VeryPeeved you do realize that the murder dance isnt an actual canon part of the canon and that in reality you are literally searching all around the place, right?
From the monster's perspective, attacking a human is self-defense. After all, the humans attempted to exterminate them in the past, which is the whole reason they're in the underground in the first place. Through legends and history, humans will have been made into this evil, soul-devouring menace that lurks even now just above ground, waiting to destroy them at any moment. You sparing them is them ceasing their attacks when they realize that you're not hostile and withdrawing. Toriel *knew* that if she let you pass, then not only would you die to Asgore, it would lead to Asgore ascending to being something on the level of his son at the end of the game, and then taking revenge on humanity for the murder of his son. In attempting to keep you there, she's not just attempting to spare your life, she's attempting to save all of humanity from a similar death. Eye for an eye, but Toriel knows that makes the whole world blind. And even *then,* she tried to put up *just* enough of a fight to discourage you from continuing onwards, and she doesn't even have the fortitude to keep THAT up when you refuse to fight her. She's obviously horrified when she accidentally kills you. Her hypocrisy is most likely her projecting her guilt and sadness onto Asgore. Papyrus only does what he does because he's naive. He thinks that real life works like anime (though, to be fair, life in the underground has some definite resemblance towards anime). He's been ordered to capture humans, but he doesn't understand *why,* just that he's been told to do it, and by a personal hero of his no less. Undyne shares the same opinion of humanity as the other monsters. Namely, that humans are the evilest of evils, and that the only way that monsters can possibly survive and thrive is if humanity, their worst and greatest enemies, were destroyed. She no doubt regrets having to take any life for this goal, but believes that it's necessary if monster kind, her friends and loved ones, are to survive. Alphys is... disconnected from the real world at best. She is rather like Papyrus, though from a different perspective: she doesn't really understand the consequences of her actions or why certain things might be bad for her or for others. Part of this very well might be escapism and trauma on her part from her participation in the experiments with determination, where a real, tangible attempt to save lives and resurrect monsters just so they could be with their families again failed due to things that she could have never predicted. Thus, her inability to correctly perceive the world, and her obsession with anime, is a coping mechanism that she uses to deal with her own psychological damage. She might not even really comprehend that she's putting you in danger. Muffet believes you to be a horrible person who wiped out the spiders that had been long trapped in the Ruins. She is honestly misinformed, and simply didn't know that you didn't actually *do* anything. She's angry and distraught, and is attempting to exact her revenge on what she views as a psychotic murderer. Additionally, her overpricing is entirely in response to this as well, and is most likely entirely restricted to you. Mettaton fights you for the same reasons as Undyne and all the other monsters: because from Mettaton's perspective, you're evil. Mettaton's earlier attacks were more or less due to Alphys' interference, given that she sent him against you. Mettaton's main issues are his tunnel vision and his obsession with fame, which lead into him abandoning Napstablook and then attacking and attempting to kill you. In the end, you help Mettaton realize that he really did accomplish what he wanted to, and that he doesn't need to fight. Thus, he allows your passage. Sans has meta awareness. Obviously, he's aware of things that none of the other monsters are, like the fact that you're neither evil nor hostile (except on the Genocide route). However, he takes no steps to warn the other monsters of this, because in the end, there's no point. He lost hope a long time ago. Him attacking you is a kind of empty resignation to the inevitable, and attempting to change your path by frustrating you, knowing that it's all worthless in the end. Asgore, in the end, is more or less just as justified in his campaign against humanity as you are justified in killing monsters that attack you. Asgore in the aboveground would be just like you in the underground: namely, that he would be more or less just acting in self-defense. It's just that he'd have a secondary motive: revenge. Flowey is a husk of someone that once lived, soulless and undeniably sad. Killing him is something close to mercy, in a way, ending his empty existence, even if it doesn't have the wonder of his redemption. Is Frisk fighting back against the monsters justified? From a meta perspective, absolutely not. From their perspective... they're a child, why would they ever think of fighting back outside of the player's intervention? Essentially, without the player, they wouldn't fight the monsters anyway and the monsters would relent when they realized this. With the player, they're not justified because the player possesses meta knowledge.
But all of this implies that the child would know of this, which it doesn't. Bringing the PLAYERS knowledge into this is completely out of place because the entire video was talking about the child's perspective, despite bringing up some background info about certain characters. All the child knows is that it's beeing attacked. If someone came up to you with a knife and tried to murder you for your money or expensive watch or whatever you have, would you for even a second think about why they do it? 'Curse not because within that second you'd be dead. In the child's eyes it is only protecting itself which justifies every single encounter except for the monster kid and maybe alphys.
Quick and meta answer: it's a game, and the monsters attacking first encourages the player to fight, just like most games. Thoughtful answer: because all they know is that humankind fought their people, killed and defeated them ages ago, and sealed them underground in possible eternal banishment. Just as if an enemy infiltrated one of our camps or bases, we'd try to kill him, or capture him if our troops felt like it. If an Antichrist took over the world, a lot of people would fight against him and his "well meaning" forces.
Edit: I think Toby Fox implied on Twitter that Undyne confirmed in-game that Asgore directly killed all of the 6 fallen humans between Chara and Frisk.
Great Duck Well, Undyne mentions that none of the previous fallen humans made it past Asgore. Although that's in the neutral route, so a Genocide-only Frisk never finds that out.
People seem to overlook why the monsters were sealed in the first place. If a single monster manages to steal a soul on the surface, they would become powerful enough to murder 6 other humans. Basically, it wouldn't take long for a monster with a gun and desire for power to become a god.
Jennifer Guajardo I guess 'dusting' them before the 5'th kill with extreme hatred and prejudice might be a solution. If I remember: hate weakens them. Heck, a monster with a desire for power wouldn't even have to murder, he could just wait outside of a retirement home or hospital and quietly collect the souls of the dead.
and why do people bring up 'equality' as an argument point? I mean, I understand racism but really, give a monster a gun in a crowded area and you're announcing doomsday, im pretty sure you wouldn't want walking timebombs all over the place now do you?
now killing monsters dat ran into you that's alright,but randomly running around to encounter and kill them like you wanted... these are diffrent. look,you ran into monsters to attack them,but not all of them WANTED to kill you.
Again, you have to think about this as if you were the human. What Toriel? She basically tried to kidnap you. Papyrus? He was going to have you sent off to be ezecuted. The monsters in Hotland? Last I checked, they were all trying to murder you out of vengeance. Core monsters? Nope. They're mercenaries hired by MTT to kill you. Oh, and if you meant Temmie, then you're still wrong. Temmie tries to kill you too. In the genocide route, you walk around where monsters approach YOU. Not the other way around. The only exception would have to be Sans, since you initiate the fight, and he tries to kill you. So please, from the human's perspective, tell me one monster that doesnt want to kill them.
@@catnat6571 monster kid. Oh, and every monster you don't encounter by playing the game normally. Those jelly things are questionable since you can spare them from the start, and their attacks might not even be conscious. Also, Toriel doesn't try to kill you. Not saying that she's good, injuring a kid "to protect them" is pretty messed up, but trying to talk it out with the person that only helped you up until now makes more sense than just charging at her with an intent of murder. Especially considering that she basically comes to the conclusion that she's wrong on her own if you just don't attack her. Technically you have to press "spare", but it doesn't say what you do by pressing it, so it's the same as doing nothing. Also, I like to think that monsters just stop attacking you after 5-ish battles, since the way Toby made it doesn't make much sense. Also, some fights are just dumb, Aaron/Shyren/Napstablook and many others are obviously not trying to kill you, no idea why you can take damage in those fights. As much as I like Undertale's gameplay integration into the lore, it's just not done properly for a lot of fights. It being a mistake makes much more sense that it being a design decision.
@@zeratulrus142 Monster kid, fine. But what do you mean other monsters you encounter? Undyne the Undying? Sans? Mettaton Neo? Who? Literally everyone tries to murder you, no matter what mode you play. And Toriel tries to basically kidnap you.
(A bit late to comment on this video I know, but I’m commenting anyways) - Going through the genocide run is not justifiable in any shape or form, Frisk is as self aware as the player is and that is immediately proven by some of the interactions you have when checking objects in specific areas and when Frisk moves on his own without you controlling him, when doing that, he essentially knows what his opponent’s next move is (and by doing that, it shows that you as Chara have the intent to kill without hesitation). - When you “aimlessly go around the room”, you’re objective by doing that is to literally find and encounter the monsters yourself and kill them, the monsters are trying to run away from you while you’re trying to hunt them down. - Even if you’re trying to prove that it’s justifiable to kill the monsters considering the fact that they attack you first, that wasn’t the case for some of the other innocent monsters you harm like Papyrus or Monster Kid, even with some of the other monsters like Froget that don’t even know what brought them in front of you (if you look at the text with Froget, it says something along the lines of “Froget doesn’t seem to know what brought them here” indicating that 1) you found him and now you are about to kill him 2) Froget accidentally went into an interaction with you and yet you decide to cause his demise). - It’s by the time that you’ve made it past Snowden and enter Waterfall when every monster starts running away from you. The smile that pops up when encountering a monster indicates that you wanted that encounter and you most probably was the one that started it due to how sadistic you are by that point and how terrified the monsters are from you. Undyne is only considered the “true heroin” once you try to murder an innocent child that didn’t even want to hurt you. By the point you’ve killed Undyne, every monster you counter is just trying to stop you from causing anymore harm to monster kind. - I’ve already mentioned that Frisk knows as much as the player does in my first paragraph, keeping that in mind would mean that Frisk is considered evil once you start a genocide run, since Frisk has gone through all the other alternatives and has practically studied every monster you encounter in the underground. Frisk is your desires to what you want to do and cause in Undertale, you quite literally make up Frisk, and what you want out of the genocide run is to discover the truth that you’ve never witnessed before and to see what happens when killing the monsters (which on its own is incredibly sadistic and psychopathic) which inevitably leads to summoning a demonic being (Chara) that was one of the biggest if not the biggest reason to why the underground has suffered so much, Chara leaves out clues telling you about her revival or at least telling you something bad would happen if you end up going through a genocide run throughout your encounters with certain objects and monsters. - You deciding to desperately fight monsters like Sans and Undyne is preposterous and outright dumb (that is if you attempt to consider genocide being justifiable), Undyne the undying is trying to desperately stop you from destroying her home, friends, and family while you keep flashing back from outside the spacetime continuum to deal more damage and to end up killing her. Once you’ve made it to the judgement hall and meet up with Sans, Sans makes it very obvious that there are better outcomes to this with you resetting and going on with the happy ending, but you still decide to fight and keep on trying to kill Sans even though all he wants is for you to go back in time and do the right thing for all monsters. By the point you make it to Asgore, you’re kicking a dead horse when trying to justify genocide because you can’t, it’s obvious why once you go through the route itself so I won’t bother explain myself.
Thank you, all the things in my head summed up, i want to add for Mettaton though i may be wrong Wasnt they not really made to kill humans? In neutral they just attacked you to help Alphys and to basically make some entertainment in the underground (they pretty much acted to try to kill you to literally pretend to be the villan for you and Alphys), i suppose killing a human is unjustifiable in neutral but the times they appeared them and Alphys will try to make you succeed no matter what, if your not doing it their way at all they still tried to avoid the killing part, Mettaton wasnt built to basically hurt the human in genocide they did it for everyone and to perhaps even buy time for the monsters, what they did in genocide is just what Undyne was trying to do,
Why do you assume the previous fallen humans were "innocent", we don't know what happened, some of them could've been violent, some of them could've killed Monsters, keep in mind the Yellow Soul had a GUN which you find EMPTY, of course, how and when it was emptied, we don't know, but, still, also, the Blue Soul's tutu is described as "Dusty" and the shoes quote "Make you feel dangerous". But, another thing that should be taken into account, some of the Monsters that attack don't recognize Frisk as human, also, a lot of them, namely most of the main characters, don't recognize Toriel as the former queen, nor does ANYONE other than the Monsters in New Home mention Asriel. It makes me wonder how many generations of Monsters have passed since Asriel and Chara died and Toriel ran away.
Because of what they represented. Kindness? Integrity? Justice? Those are all inherently good traits. That means half of them were, by default, the good guy. Bravery, patience, and perseverance COULD be evil, or at least not good, but the other half must have been good. The empty gun kinda makes me sad...they were defenseless when they died...out of ammo. But that ventures into head cannon.
Okay, here. Weapons of the souls and defense: 1. Implicitly a kid, Patience’s *toy knife* could really just be for intimidation purposes. 2. Bravery’s *gloves* being “tough”. Maybe thay’s how they looked to the narrator. For the purpose of looking intimidating. 3. *The tutu* could have been sitting there for over a decade ad you expected it to be just fine? And *the ballet shoes* could likely be pointe shoes. Wouldn’t you feel dangerous if your shoes had something tough enough to actually hurt people with?! 4. A *notebook*. Really, what damage can that do? It could be a diary or a fanfic for all we know. 5. The *frying pan* belongs to KINDNESS. 6. *The gun* might be a nerf gun for all we know.
All 6 souls were children and the last I checked children are of innocents because they don't have the full understanding of the world around them. Children only do what is taught to them and the many things they are taught is monsters are scary and dangerous and to never trust or talk to strangers. Here a child accidentally falls into a world full of monsters who are literally kidnapping and killing these children. Seriously, read the dialog of what Torial is saying and doing in the beginning of the game, yes we learn she is trying to protect you but to a child they have only known this person/monster for only two days and we are expected to trust this person all because they made us pie (Which kids are also suppose to not except food from stangers unless it's Halloween), and then later when you want to leave she has every excuse as why you shouldn't't, to a child they don't know who this person really is and what their intentions. Ever read Hansel and Gretel where two kids are playing in the woods, until a woman who later turns out being a witch pretends to be these kids friends, invites them into her house where she feeds them all kinds of goodies and keep them occupied until she can eat them.
Lol but who cares in the end its just a game but with a huge child fanbase who obsesses about it to the point if you say i like the genocide run or i dont like undertale they have to overreact over pixels on a screen
No, they actually have the stated goal of destroying humanity and the character is told by Toriel that all humans who leave are killed by monsters. She then tries to kidnap you against your will after conveying that infomation. I see a lot of people in this comment section being overly emotional and pretending that what we know as humans playing the game and what the fallen child would know or see are the same. no sane system of ethics would state: You must give great patience to people who will kill you if you aren't careful. In our own system of law, if someone tries to kill you OR someone you love you can use deadly force to defend yourself. Never mind when they are, from the eyes of the fallen child a warlike, kidnapping race bent on humanities destruction.
sans judges you not only because you killed litteraly everyone including his brother and possible lover, but also because in the game you enjoyed it and didn't give anyone a chance. some of the monsters doesnt even want to fight.
Yes, keep telling yourself that...the characters even make refferences to this being wrong. This game has beings in it, yes they may not actually be consious, but they remember, they have character, they *are real*. That's the point, toying around with the game to find cool stuff is what everyone does, but you never take into account the consequences of your actions, or how you are affecting the world around you.
DoubtIsAVirtue Well he does not deserve it is the one who wanted to prolong more time the genocide of humans and Toriel wanted to use the soul they had to go out and kill humans faster and there would be no way to solve in the future As they did frisk and Asriel at the end
justified isn't right or wrong. without morality, anything goes. especially self preservation. he killed human children, there is a pattern, a mens rea, and an actus rea, he'd be thrown in a jail cell with basic 101 criminology. but he IS the law. you can lie down and die cuz 'two wrongs don't make a right' most animals understand survival though.
Asgore sort of deserves to die he had the power to free everyone yet he let his people suffer and continued the war against human by slaughtering innocent children.
8:38 "Asgore declared war on humanity". Humanity declared war on the monsters Oh wait I just realized that in genocide you don't kill anyone on sight, you instead actively grind against them, so it's not self defense, it's a hunt
We really don't know what sparked the war since we only hear one side of it. Monsters could've been either the victims or the aggressors and history is biased on the side that speaks of it. A great example of this is The American Revolution. For the Americans it was a war for their freedom while for England it is seen as a betrayal.
@@zendzend5107 But from Undertale we see that the monster aren’t actually hostile towards humans in their genes. Hence they weren’t aggressive towards humans before the war.
Humans attacked the monsters out if fear of them absorbing human souls. Humans sealed monsters under Mt.Ebott. Humans killed Asriel for "killing" The First Fallen Human. (We know that they suicided) Asgore declared a war on monsters because he lost 2 kids one night.
Bob Normal Batman: ni idea, en un mundo donde un psicópata puede escapar una y otra vez del acilo mas seguro del mundo uno esperaría que los seres super inteligentes, psíquicos y mágicos inventaran una forma de curarlo o que aumenten constantemente la seguridad de Arkham.
A couple years back, I didn't have the maturity or growth I have today to have enough patience and listen to others' point of view, and Undertale made me somewhat understand how important it is to listen to people's stories and see the hidden pain, confusion, and blinded misinformation they were given and taught from bad experience and history. It's not always easy to let the burning hate of the ones of suffered, and it's easy to let your own pain lash out at other people because you suffered something in life too. Sometimes it takes self control and a bit of patience to see that there's a lot more than a facade that says "I hate you!" and screams "I'm hurting and I can't take the risk of being hurt again!"
Here's the thing: All of this is only justifiable IF you're playing for the first time and are totally unaware of the intention or back story of these monsters. Most people who do genocide run though usually do it after a pacifist run: After they're aware of the happy ending, aware of why the monsters are doing what they're doing, and are even aware that when they get to the surface, things seem to be working out for them. Most people usually do the genocide run for the sake of either completion or curiosity, considering the fact that in the context of this world, they can restart and undo all their previous damage and assume that once it's over with, they can just go back and do another pacifist run to get a better ending. I mean, think about it: If you had the power to rewind time and undo everything you did after you did it and restart from earlier points of your life: Would you not be tempted to abuse that power? Especially since there are no consequences (as far as you know) since you can undo any damage and no one will remember a thing? You could literally get away with murder and because you can bring that person back to life with out any memory of what you did, you'll be fine. I personally find it difficult to justify the genocide run considering how Toby has described other games: He always thought about the implications of slaying monsters/enemies mindlessly in other RPG's and felt that it made the heroes seem less heroic, which is why befriending the monsters in this game is heavily encouraged by not only the game itself, but also when the game was first advertised. Let's not forget how it seems like Toby Fox made the genocide route as boring/repetitive/grind heavy/redundant as he did: In order to make things less fun, and with how heavy handed the game is by either guilt you or scolding you for your choices. Also the fact that Genocide run has consequences and takes away the chance for another happy ending (True Pacifist Route is now called Soulless Pacifist Route for example, basiccly rubbing in what you did prior) I don't think Toby Fox would want us justifying the genocide ending when it appears that the whole reason Undertale was designed the way it was was to show the player that the genocide route isn't a good choice. Though I've heard people justify genocide run for other reasons: Reason 1: If you don't end the time line permanently, Flowey will just keep resetting to the beginning every time, making all the characters in Undertale stuck in a perpetual time loop forever (Though it's been proven that Flowey can't due this due to Frisks's determination out weighing their own, though I guess it can be determined that when Frisk finally dies some how or if Flowey themselves managed to gain more determination, then this is possible) so this means that killing everyone via genocide run is an act of mercy to finally release them from the time loop. Reason 2: That the monsters going back to the surface, since it's doubtful humanity will just let them integrate with their society and probably segregate them, and that they'll either all be slain by the humans and die anyway, or that this could be the cause of another human/monster war in which the causalities could be far greater than the mere body count of the genocide run. So by killing all of them, you're essentially sparing them and the rest of a surface from more wide scale destruction. Reason 3: The fact that the monsters might have destroyed humanity during the ending credits of the Pacifist Route because we don't see the monsters interacting with any humans on the surface, and the humans themselves seem to have disappeared while the monsters are roaming about the city (Though I'm sure there's another explanation for this) thus the monsters all need to be killed to protect humanity on the surface. I personally disagree with these three statements (despite how understandable they are) since the implication that genocide run is the answer goes against the whole point/message of the game, and the fact that we already have people who believe that wiping off certain groups of people from the face of the earth is the only way to make things better (In other words, they believe the genocide of certain populations is justified for similar reasons) which I think is BS because there's always another way.
Even Toriel said "Strike a friendly conversation" so I can agree that first Froggit is justi(can't spell) but not any other monster (maybe Undyne Metta and Muffet
None of this is justifiable. Only neutral is; genocide is not. I agree with you that you can't really justify it and that Toby himself tried to make it as blatantly unjustifiable as possible. Also, all those statements of trying to justify genocide are ridiculous. I disagree with those statements as well. The first and second ones are definitely interesting and I'd love to see them expanded upon, but for the second one... The monsters are miserable being stuck Underground. All of them are so hopeful to reach the Surface. Why not let them try? We actually _see_ the monsters living happily on the Surface in the end. Whether or not that took years of the monsters dealing with prejudices, we don't know, but they do seem happier up there. The third is especially ridiculous. The game has stated multiple times that monsters are far weaker than humans and that almost _all_ the souls of the monsters would be needed just to equal the power of a single human soul. How many monsters are there? I'd guess not many more than a thousand, if even that. The Underground is a small place and not conducive to repopulation. And how many humans are there? _Billions._ I'm pretty sure it's impossible for the monsters to destroy humans. The point is, yes, I agree with you that genocide can't be justified.
The theories/reasons for why the genocide run is justified all come from different fan perspectives, but yeah, the third is absolutely ridiculous, though the theory goes that the monsters SOME HOW destroyed humanity (Maybe Dr. Alphys made anti-human weapons) but even the people who believe that theory have to enter some hard core fan fiction territory to explain why it's possible. Another theory for the monsters roaming about with out any humans in the pacifist ending is that humanity is literally done and the city was abandoned, so now the monsters are inhabiting it... though this one has nothing to do with justifying Genocide, so I won't go much into detail. What this video also failed to point out (that I forgot to point out in my first rant) is also that in Genocide run, you're deliberately looking for monsters to kill and not just fighting what ever comes your way and killing out of self defense. There's a difference between killing your attacker and/or deliberately hunting down others with the intent to murder them. I guess that can be justified for 2 reasons: That the protagonist is aware of how killing monsters makes them stronger, so they're killing as many as possible to stand a better chance and not die/be killed themselves since they'll need that strength to escape. And that they're seeking/killing monsters intentionally to make sure there aren't none left for the sake of safety, since it's better to take your enemies down first so they don't come around and attack you later (Like they're killing out of fear/paranoia opposed to power or homicidal tenancies) Though both those arguments fall apart when, again, the genocide route is done AFTER neutral/pacifist, so they're aware that such acts are not needed. (and can only be applied if the person doing this is playing for the first time with out context/explanation and decides to do genocide run for their first play through)
I still find it kinda unbelievable that the monsters would even manage to gather enough materials to make _that many weapons._ Imagine how powerful the weapons would have to be and how much material they'd have to find somehow. Let's say that when the monsters first emerge, humans hate them and try to segregate them. If that were the case, it'd be even harder for the monsters to find necessary materials since they wouldn't have free roam of the land. Also, humans have things like nukes, and since there are probably only a thousand monsters _at maximum,_ if the humans pushed the monsters away from themselves, it'd be extremely easy to just nuke them all the moment they found out the monsters were trying to build a weapon. And let's say the humans _didn't_ hate the monsters... Then what would the purpose of destroying them be? We know for a fact that the monsters don't want to wage war on humanity the moment they step out onto the surface. After all, Frisk has shown them that not all humans are bad, and plus Asgore asks you to be their ambassador to humans, and Papyrus wants to be the mascot; clearly their intentions are peaceful. So this whole idea is kind of unlikely imo. As for genocide being self-defense... even if you went in to the game blind and accidentally chose genocide, that still isn't right. Actively seeking out and slaughtering all the monsters you can possibly find is murderous. It isn't self-defense. That would be like saying that a soldier in war, after a long battle, goes on to kill an entire innocent 'enemy' village, including its women and children, just because he doesn't want to take the risk of anyone retaliating. Seriously, it's inexcusable. I know it's probably silly of me to compare a game to something as awful as that, but it was the best example I could come up with...
@@Dylanfrias24 yes, but in genocide, you don't just kill every monster you encounter, you walk around and find them and kill them, yes it would be justifiable if you kill the monster you randomly encounter, but waiting and walking, LOOKING for them to kill them...
@The Good Demon yeah I haven't played the run, but I watched it I was soooo sad And yes I am to weak to do it my self XD. I just love the characters too much
@The Good Demon yea true your own experience is the best experience but I can't even bring myself to reset after I did the pacifist lol And yea, I'm glad I already saw the whole thing!
To be fair, everyone after Snowdin obviously knows you killed a majority of the monsters there since there was an evacuation, so the braver ones would most likely stay behind to try and kill you. There is also the possibility of previous humans killing a monster, making them feel uneasy around humans and therefore attacking you. I read everything I just like making counter-arguments.
The Papyrus argument was pretty weak.Papyrus was trying to capture you its his job thats like saying its justified to kill a police officer because he was doing his job.
Niels Beeris Yeah agreed. Truly though a lot of his arguments were pretty weak in this. Its kinda like saying a person has a flaw so you have to kill them :/
I feel like he keeps holding on to the idea that every monster is an actual monster and that its self defence killing them. Even though if toriel wanted you dead she wouldve attacked you on sight just like flowey. No reason killing her. Just like the rest because all of them have their reasons. Toriel wants to save you papyrus wants to become a royal guard undyne wants to protect the undergrounds and so on and so on.
Niels Beeris Undynes job is to bring Frisk in as well so technically she is just doing what she is ordered to do. This video just has a bunch of flaws.
Sorcerer Hex true. and to undyne as well. undyne was raised to the laws of humans are terrible and can easily take our lives. and it's correct. she is a soldier. she is only following orders.
There is one side which is: They’ve already killed 6 other humans, and they attacked you first And the other side: They’re scared and want to leave, and if their HP is low enough you can spare them, and if you don’t it’s kinda.... Even on the genocide argument, I personally just can’t kill any monsters when I play T~T Yeah, yeah, I know it’s a video game, sue me.
yeah thats the thing i can imagine myself beating some monsters up accidentally killing some in the process yeah but not fucking killing a monster that has already given up and certainly not fucking SEARCHING THEM TO KILL THEM ALL.
Why the genocide run is not justifiable: 1. One must actively seek out monsters to kill, 2. One must kill a pacifist, that being Papyrus who spares you, 3. One must try to kill a child, that is to say monster kid, 4. One must have the underground destroyed, thereby putting the entire world at risk, As for killing in general: 1. Monsters can be spared at low health, which makes killing them unnecessary, 2. Monsters can be spared if the character is of a high LV, making fights unnecessary, 3. Despite the fact that the monsters instigate a battle, the character always goes first, 4. While monsters do attack you, not all of them do so intentionally (Woshua and Blooky for example) 5. Certain monsters (whimsun, moldsmal) can be spared immediately, making fights unnecessary, 6. Toriel and Papyrus do not try to kill you, even though the former can do so by accident, 7. All monster encounters can be fled from, making fights unnecessary, 8. As a human, the character is immensely powerful compared to the monsters, the vast majority hardly pose a threat, 9. Rationally speaking, fighting the monsters isn't beneficial, one is better off sparing or running away, 10. Many monsters educate the character about sparing and mercy, so ignorance can not be used for justification,
1. The monsters declared war on humans, WAR! Why would the player think to spare or leave behind an enemy who is willing to kill them? I can't imagine people "sparing" enemies mid world war 2. 2. Papyrus only spares you during a genocide run. He kills you during any other run. If you couldn't respawn, you'd be dead. Surrendering was a survival instinct papyrus had after realizing he couldn't beat you. If you argue that he doesn't kill you and only captures you, your soul literally breaks. If Toby fox really wanted to show you getting captures and not killed, he would have programmed the game to make you lose but let you live on one health. 3. Monster kid is one of your stronger arguments, so I'll acknowledge it. However I will admit that ignorance is what gets monster kid killed. He knows what you're doing and chooses to fight you rather than run for his life. "...you'll have to get through me first" is what he said. It's brave, but I wouldn't bank my life on someone else's compassion. The monsters have shown no reason to get compassion since all of them except sans tried to kill you at least once. 4. This can tie back to number one, they asked for war and knew what they were getting themselves into. Asgore and undyne show little care about wiping out humanity for the benefit of the monsters. 5. Even after sparing a monster turn one, they still attack you. Sure you can spare them, but none of them spare you. Plus they benefit if you die by getting another soul, so why not defend yourself? On top of that, sparing undyne in a neutral run makes her hunt you down, so sparing them presents risk to your life. 6. It doesn't matter how much weaker the enemy is, they can all kill you if given the opportunity, and like I mentioned before, sparing presents risk. 7. I mentioned this in number 5 8. Your general killing number 4 is again another good point you've brought up. But by this point Alphys should have warned the monsters to get out of your way. I get that not every monster is for the war against humanity, but intentional or not, death is death, and that's exactly what the player is trying to avoid. If someone is trying to kill me during a war, I don't care if it's intentional or not, they're next. 9. You often bringing up the argument that if you don't spare, your actions are unjustifiable. Refer to 5-6. 10. The game is designed to have you think you have to fight toriel, which leads to you accidentally killing her so you can replay the game differently. In the scenario of this argument, the player doesn't know that toriel is holding back her attacks. All they know is that toriel is attacking them with fire and they have the options to either run away and stay stuck underground forever, or fight your way out. And again, papyrus doesn't try to avoid hitting you unless his back's against a wall. 11. Sparing and fleeing are the same thing. My previous 2 points (5-6) still stand. 12. If you didn't save ever, you would most likely die to one of the monsters. (Unless you are Merg). Killing means experience, that means more strength, and that means better odds of survival. Saving is not allowed in this scenario because we are assuming that we are in frisk's shoes, and if we only have one life, why should we assume we can respawn? 13. Fighting is beneficial because it yields better stats. This is assuming we are new to undertale and don't know all 69 possible endings. 14. Yeah.. we learn about sparing, but the monsters are hypocrites who want to kill you for your soul and never spare you. In a more realistic setting, how many times are you gonna try to befriend a possessed dummy who constantly charges you with a knife or an evil flower who tries to kill you as soon as you're introduced to the underground? 15. In my opinion, the monsters are all guilty of wanting revenge. They're fine with taking 6 human souls, 6 human lives, the lives of children! Yet if you ever kill anyone during a run through, you become the enemy. Hell, even killing a single froggit makes undyne want to hunt you down. The creator would really hate it if someone gets a happy ending during a genocide route, so in the end, you die. To the monsters, it's kill or be killed, but for you, it's spare or get a bad ending. That's why I enjoyed this video, because it brought to light an alternative prospective to such a linear game with us ethics.
The humans *were the ones* who declared war on monsters *first* because they feared the monsters' ability to absorb a human soul wich causes the monsters to become more powerful. Therefore they trapped the monsters underground with a magic spell. (This information is dictated in the ancient plaques located in Waterfall) This is *not a justifiable reason* . Just because someone *can do* something does not imply they will do something. Asgore declared war on humanity *after* they killed his son Asriel (who *refused* to fight back) over a ignorant misunderstanding. They did not even give him a chance to explain himself. The humans assumed he, *as an individual* , murdered the dead child he carried in his arms, most likely based of his specie. That's *not a moraly correct reason* . BTW Papyrus *never* kills the player in *any* route. There is *never* a gameover therefore your heart/soul *never* breaks. He shows compassion in the genocide route and he pities you in the passifist route. He spares you in all routes (even though it takes him longer to give you mercy in the passifist route).
@@chezze8190 Can’t imagine people sparing enemy during world war? Um buddy? Ever heard of the Christmas Truce? Live and let live? And the fact that killing an surrendered enemy in war is a war crime?
"Still perhaps we should look at as less why complete genocide is justified and instead more why killing every monster you come across is" The complete genocide that he isn't looking at is the Genocide run; the other part is the Neutral Run. He ADMITS that: A- He is justifying the NEUTRAL RUN. B-He is ignoring the GENOCIDE RUN. This video title, setup, and premise AREN'T EVEN WHAT THE VIDEO ACTUALLY IS.
Either way, the fact that the monsters say to spare others if they don't want to fight (this can mean you fought them to a point when they don't want to fight anymore, not just that you acted until they gave up) kind of makes the neutral unjustifiable. They know they can defend themselves until the other doesn't want to fight back and they don't have to kill the monsters.
I don't think there is a justification to the Genocide run, but I will say this. Asgore can kill every single human being that comes down there, children more or less and Sans doesn't bat an eye. The moment you start killing people though, you are a monster? What? They're so proud of killing, especially humans down there, but when a human starts killing, they start acting like heroes for trying to stop you.
Gostler 6 people out of 7 billion seems laughable to get mad over, yes, but you must realize, all 6 who died came down in the underground. Most of them are more than likely merciful, as Undyne said they all confronted Asgore and yet every other main monster in the game is still alive. On the flip side, Frisk kills one random Froggit, has Sans yell at them for only doing this to get "results" and can't get past the barrier.
Gostler Undyne said in her Neutral/Pacifist fight "no human has ever got past Asgore, killing you is an act of mercy". Now, Toriel would not be able to kill any humans as she stated all of the others "come and go" and die outside of the Ruins. It is implied Papyrus has never seen a human before you and Sans would be too lazy to kill any human that isn't a genocidal maniac, which none of them were. This only means (out of boss characters) Mettaton could have killed them. But Mettaton did not exist during most, or all of the human's existence, Alphys might not even have been the Royal Scientist for some, and if Mettaton did kill one, he would be on the surface. They all died to Asgore. They did need to kill them to pass the barrier, but a few things. 1. Asgore went psychotic and swore to kill every human instead of just one and passing the barrier to get souls. 2. Even though the only way you truly pass the barrier is through Pacifist ingame, from Frisk's perspective, you will need to kill at least one boss monster to pass. They both needed to kill to achieve their goals, but Frisk is the only one getting shit for it. I am not trying to say Asgore is a bad guy or bad character, but rather saying him and Frisk are nearly the same.
Not in the neutral route, i mean, Asgore is the only one you need to kill to get through the barrier since its the only soul you need to absorb, also, i didn't know those were the only monsters that existed =P.
This really only justifies a kill heavy neutral route. In none of the zones, is EVERY monster trying to attack you. In a genocide route, you keep going around the map actually hunting for the poor monsters. There wasn't any justification for quite a few of these characters. For example, Papyrus. Papyrus was believing in you before death, and still forgave you and kept believing in you even after you decapitate him. Papyrus was trying to spare you. Papyrus even lowered his DEF and ATK by 17 points!
we start the journey hearing very first words from Flowey being a lie and a ploy to get us hurt. What basis do we have to believe that Papyrus is not simply a liar or someone who stalls for time themselves?
@@YooranKujara Thank you. Also even this is according to Frisk’s perspective it’s still unjustified. Because this goes against the lore of Undertale. As all true fans would know, after Frisk completed the Pacifist ending they get bored and was curious of what would happen if they committed Genocide, they thought they were above consequences. They thought they’d be able to reset as usual. So none of Frisk’s actions are out of self defence but pure curiosity.
Also this video also goes against the Genocide route purpose. The G route was supposed to make the player feel guilty and miserable. Precious thing often becomes precious when you loose them. Now this video is telling us we did nothing wrong, that the monsters started it all. No I refuse to believe that, this video is a complete Sh#t show and should definitely be banned.
Okay, a couple things. A) Papyrus doesn't attack you in your battle against him if you've chosen the genocide path. B) Monster kid C) The justification is the fact that monsters as a race are inherently threatening to the safety of the universe. All it takes is literally 7 dudes to die near a monster to create the next GOD OF HYPERDEATH. Monsters are not as innocent as they make themselves out to be.
Maybe Because he saw you as himself in genocide, he wanted to destroy all humanity but he saw how painful it would be for them if he do it BEACUSE of frisk in genocide
“Yeah, sure! I’m just going to be nice to you and let you go when you are actively trying to kill me. Or on second thought, no I’m not!” The most relatable quote ever.
Monster that doesn’t try to kill you include. The Great Papyrus. Monster kid. Shyren. Flowey. Monsters who did not attack you but you killed: Asgore. Mettaton.
Woow, you done gas lighting? 3 characters doesn’t redeem the whole. And even then that’s why I specified in another Comment that Neutral Runs are justifiable, not full on Genocide Runs. God you are such a damn simp for monsters!
@@MotorcycleCheetah You know what? After I thought about it. I agree there are reasons Genocide is justified. But the message from Undertale is that your not above consequences, your actions are like criminal records, and it last for ever. This is what makes Undertale so great and unique. Once you believe you did nothing wrong, it’s just not what Undertale stands for. It’s ok to AGREE Genocide is justified, but it’s not ok to BELIEVE that.
Again, I don’t agree Genocide is justified. I think killing in Self Defense is justified which is why I praise the neutral routes. Going out of your way to kill, makes you a bad guy. But there is no shame in killing someone who is trying to kill you. That is why I always spare Toriel and Papyrus in Neutral runs. Toriel, as much as I hate her, does not ever intend to kill you, and thusly I always spare. And Papyrus is a paragon of virtue in my eye, one of the few genuinely heroic monsters that I can respect. My issue that most monsters are trying to murder a Small Child and then they whine at me when I fight back. The monster race is a bunch of hypocrites, because they don’t know I can rewind time, they think I’m a defenseless child so they think “Ooh, Easy Kill!”, their whole society is based so much around souls that I’m damn sure they were a bunch of soul stealing demons in the past, and that’s why they were sealed away. How else would they know how Soul Absorption works before Asriel? If I’m not above consequences, why should they be above Reprimand and Criticism?
That's very true! I much prefer the pacifist route, but I think the genocide path gives the game a certain uncanny edge that you simply don't see in most games.
Underlab ...This justifies killing all the encounters you stumble upon in the neutral route, but not the genocide route. You know why? In neutral route, you are killing out of self-defense, sure, but in the genocide route...you're hunting down encounters, chasing down the monsters until one of them is unlucky enough to slow down enough for you to catch up and kill it, or brave enough to sacrifice its own life to try to give the other ones enough time to escape you while you're slaughtering it.
Maybe its out of necessity? Think about it like this: If you leave this seemingly violent murder-hungry race alive, than one of them could, kill you take your soul, and then do who knows what to humanity. You basically choose the line of thinking of Undine, that is your fighting for humanity.
Thing is you did not mention the fact that you have to keep running around to kill every single monster in the area , which is not really justified because your avidly trying to find monsters to kill. There for it’s not justified
People assume that they're attacking you, which is wrong. You're searching for them, you'll walk around for hours just to find them. They're not attacking you, you're attacking them.
You can also think about it another way All Neutral Runs: Monsters are trapped in the Underground forever and hate Humans even more (Frisk may have killed some Monsters + the Souls are gone + King Asgore is dead) All Pacifist Runs: Humans won't accept Monsters and another war starts Genocide Run: You're sparing the Monsters from a life of suffering by killing them Also, Monsters are a threat to Humanity, since it's confirmed that many Monsters want Humanity dead, and all it takes is 7 Human Souls to create a God capable of eradicating Humanity
I hope you enjoy this uh... purely hypothetical take on Undertale's monsters! As I state repeatedly throughout the video, I'm not in any way a fan of the genocide path, but I can see how you'd justify killing (almost) each individual character. Make sure to watch to the end for the glorious 'Conqueror of Monsters' image! ( 1920x1080 wallpaper here for all you crazies: imgur.com/a/UU2ca ) If you really enjoy the video, please leave a like on the Reddit post (the following link) in order to encourage others to watch it! www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/59ik8u/why_undertales_genocide_path_is_justifiable/
Could you please explain to people that the delta rune is Asriel, as he's seen the surface, then he made the underground go empty because he became Omega Flowey and killed everyone, then he became the god of hyper-death and stole everyone's souls. He then freed everyone by breaking the barrier and letting their souls return - his second form even is a delta rune, but nobody seems to notice and acknowledge the delta rune represents him. Maybe you should make a video on it? I love your videos by the way!
The genocide path gives you alot of chances to pick a better path Like the mad dummy he becomes the happy dummy and you can spare him just like that no fighting needed
@@theeclipsemaster and papyrus in his genocide battle wants to teach you how to be kind, and you could probably guess that he wouldn't kill you from his past encounters... care to explain that?
on top of someone having already pointed out that this is more of a justification for the neutral run as for genocide you have to actively seek out monsters and kill every single one of them where most of them would have never attacked you normally. It also doesnt make sense why you would choose to kill the monster to defend yourself, as toriel has already given you a way of protecting yourself without having to kill a single soul, you can even defend yourself and fight back until you can spare them, but its never a neccesity to kill, so it doesnt seem very justifiable to choose murder over sparing for no good reason whatsoever
7:46 papyrus didn't attend to kill the human. he is the only enemy in the game that wouldn't kill you at all. if i once had someone who don't want to hurt me, just doing his job + he can just kill me and get the job done. i will try in evrey way i can to get past him without killing him. it's not justifide to kill papyrus
Justifiable =/= the right thing to do. Also pointing out that you conveniently skipped Monster Kid, who you proactively attack by interrupting them mid-sentence. (And a detail that's easy to miss, but if I recall correctly one of the books in Snowdin's library states that a monster's attack is just how it communicates and expresses its emotions. They're proactively engaging with you...to communicate with you. They don't realize they're actually inflicting damage. The player, on the other hand.... One of the whole themes of the game is understanding not to judge others by appearances.)
This is hella late, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned that it wasn't a complete genocide and more of a 'kill anything that attacked you, route'. Even if it was a true genocide, in the standpoint of a child or any human at all, if a flower can betray you and nearly kill you, what makes you think a monster kid is harmless? If you were stuck in a pit of monsters that constantly attacked you, survival would be the first thing you care about, morals or not.
@@examplenote1413 The youtuber is trying to justify a no mercy run but also, if it was still a genocide, I doubt Frisk would have a reason to trust a spear holding fish lady that's trying to kill him. Who knows if it's a plot? It's a mysterious place, a place you know nothing about. You would be mystified and scared, you would feel danger from the slightest things in the unknown underground. Who's to say that Frisk doesn't think the monsters may one day rise and kill his parents and all of humanity? In the eyes of a human, it may be justices. We, humans, stereotype things quite often. The second that Frisk puts all monsters into the categories of danger, he may commit genocide to defend the species he's a part of. He's in the vast unknown where there are creatures with magic abilities, monsters can easily kill the average human.
No, this isn't justified. Primarily, your argument is that you don't know better and are just retaliating. This is just not true. You cannot complete a genocide run if you never actively searched monsters to kill them. Random encounters are so rare once you get to a certain level that you cannot even consider them as attacking you. Plus, you know you have another possibility. The first "fight" you get into, with the dummy, shows you that you can do something else than hitting. You're told to speak to it. You have the act button -why would it be there considering enemies hardly take more than two hits to beat?- and the puzzles you meet along the way. Toby Fox designed the game not to be funny when taking that route, and he always gives you the opportunity to turn back. I can understand that you kill Toriel. You're played on, you have to go back to save her, understand the mechanics. But by Papyrus, you cannot be forgiven for killing anyone. He does not attack you and never wanted to kill you. Yes, if you think it through, that's what being captured would mean, but the game just isn't thought this way. However long you wait, Undyne will never get you in your cell. Never. Oh, and how about monster kid? Are you justified for killing him? There's no retaliation here. As I said, the game is less and less funny taking that route, and you can go back. Sans is your final warning -take for instance what happens when he spares you: he says "don't come back". Also, if you beat him then save, the savepoint tells you, Toby tells you : "If you're here, it's that somehow I did something wrong". Because you are not supposed to take that route. Everything dissuaded you to do so, and you always had the opportunity to go back and play it right. Final argument: if you could be excused for a genocide, you wouldn't be so awfully punished after a pacifist route if you have done a genocide. In pacifist, everyone is happy! You set all things nicely, surely whatever you could have done would be forgiven? No. You aren't meant to be forgiven, this is going way too far.Retaliation is understandable. That is why a NEUTRAL path is justifiable. However, a genocide route is way different. Remember the selling argument for that game: a game where you don't have to kill everybody. This game is a pacifist statement. The other routes are here to make you understand by trial and error how you were always supposed to act. Toby Fox puts you in a context of violence because you know better, you know what the game is about, and if you didn't, you're told. That's why we start with Toriel. The very intro, when she shoos Flowey away, proves you that he was wrong. She saves your life to show you how to play. She inspires you to pacifism, and I think that's what the final goal is: to inspire the monsters to love and peace. This is an incredible statement considering what happens in our world. You say we are justified to kill because monsters attack first, but let me ask you this: who started the war between humans and monsters? We don't know. There is no clue. In our world either, it runs from far too long, and it's far too complex. Are we justified to keep on fighting and killing because someone attacked first? Toby says no. Everyone is responsible for perpetuating the fight.
okay then explain why the fact that she abandoned a bunch of children to be murdered because she wanted to protect her own fragile ego of accepting asgor. Not to mention she did it to you in the game and fight you because she doesn’t get her way especially Sans Who never kept his promise in the first place because he did nothing but watch at the hands of everyone who kills you because he can remember when you reset.
While it might be justified to attack the random monsters actually killing them isn’t. This is because when monsters get on low HP you can spare them. if you have a choice between sparing a monster and killing it and choose to kill it then you’re acting unnecessarily violently
He doesn’t actually get that upset at low amounts of LOVE. He just points out the demonstrable fact that people are dead because of you, whatever your reason.
@@benjaminfricke4791 in some neutral endings the dialogue changes depending on whether you killed papyrus or not. If Papyrus is alive: "see ya later." If Papyrus is dead: "go to hell."
Also, at the genocide route it keeps on saying something like "14 remaining" and instead of continuing like a normal person, you just wait for more monsters to come to kill.
To be honest, getting the genocide route means you actively went out of your way to kill every monster you found, even if they weren't attacking you. Though I see were you are getting at. Like you, I think if the human was just killing the monsters that came their way and attacked them, it would be justifiable. You are a lost child that stumbled into the underground and all of a sudden these monsters are attacking you. It's not as if you attacked first, why do they want to kill you so much? Most people's instincts are to defend themselves in that situation, it probably would have never crossed anyone's mind to try and spare them, much like when people do the neutral route on the first try. It's not fair to accuse them of being an evil murderer when the monsters were pretty much trying to kill you, a young child who had accidentally stumbled into the underground.
In the case of a kid (not nowing thier age) Your just walking around randomly looking at all type of stuff as well (and could walking around trying to figer out what to do now to get home) and then a monster attacks you. In the end, you could have just killed them all by ansendent not even realizing it and in turn did a genocide not nowing it. Sence we don't know why they went up there to begin with (atleast I don't), they now know what they try to do and now gest wants to go back home.
Did you know i spared toriel on accident? I was messing around trying to spare her then i remembered what froggit said Sometimes you just have to keep pressing the spare button
And europeans genoci... wait ... colonisation path too ... :) as much as the american freedom and democracy path , and the russian liberation path and many others xD
She literally WANTS you to fight her to prove you can survive and smiles when she dies (genuinely in Neutral because you showed her you can survive the underground [and insanely in Genocide because.....reasons]) That seems to be decent justification
Well Toriel's smile in Genocide is less insane and more....broken when you think about it. The whole reason Toriel forces you to fight her is because she wants to know if you have the power to survive in the Underground. If you kill her in a Neutral run, you basically prove that to her. On a Genocide run, you do the same thing but with a sinister context since she realizes that the Underground wasn't a threat to you at all. Instead, YOU are the threat to the Underground and Toriel was protecting them from you the entire time. The broken smile is probably a mix of that realization and her misplaced belief in you being good.
I think when Toriel smiles in neutral it's because she knows you will be able to survive, in genocide it's that broken kind of smile but either way she just wanted to protect you, it's like killing your mom just because you can. She did want you to fight her but she was probably only going to fight like Papyrus without anyone dieing.
Sans:
he did not protec
now he attac
and you feel your sins crawling on your bacc
Kent Bouchard
69
Clever 👍
Terri Williamson no
*you ask the sins to get off
You feel your sans crawling on your back
see, this is my reason for why the no mercy path is justified, not the genocide. because in the no mercy run, you kill things that try to kill you. but in the genocide run, you're actively trying to kill everything.
Agreed, in genocide YOU are looking for them. Edit: Whimsun should be spared.
@@jani11 Agreed. I don't even know what Whimsun's attack *is*
Jani Johnny you could just grind to prevent yourself from being killed by future, stronger monsters.
Zandberg X Toriel wants to keep you in the ruins forever, despite the fact that you actively told her you wanted to go home. That's literally called unlawful imprisonment. Papyrus originally attempted to "capture you" with electric mazes, Piranha infested waters, and other likely lethal puzzles. It's called assault and kidnapping.
And please, Tell me if your mindset would be ok if you fell down at least 1000 ft(cause a mountain is at least 1k feet for it to be considered to be a mountain), met a "friendly Flower" who then beats you to the brink of death, then proceeds to meet dozens of monsters who want you dead just so they can kill 7.8 billion more. How exactly is it wrong for the humans to kill monsters that THREATEN the human?
Zandberg X wJust because you have the option to run away =/= it is unjustified. I CAN not shoot a home intruder, but it's not unjustified if I don't do so. The monsters of the Underground are CLEARLY evil and attempt to kill you.
Just a Note: Papyrus didnt know what would happen when he captured you.
@@gamer4life592 he explicitly says that he doesn't know what happens next in his neutral dialog, and that's the only time he actually tries to capture us.
Pi is the best And you trust this fleshless thing?
@@knucklesofficial9213 that's... not helping? Our lack of trust and/or understanding doesn't serve as a basis for murdering the guy. Let alone the fact that him being fleshless, while intimidating, doesn't provide any insight to who he actually is.
Furthermore, you're asking me that question, and I trust him as a player because he literally is willing to die and still believe in us after risking his life just to find some redemption in this person who's killed everyone up until then.
@@knucklesofficial9213 You dare insult the Great Papyrus.
It’s true
"Letting papyrus capture you is a death sentence," *papyrus letting me escape 10000 times*
I think you forgot the part where he said "delayed" death sentence.
@@smoke-le-bloke oh lmao I mean this was 6 months ago soooo
@@sip-fc3lv now your comment about it being 6 months ago was made 6 months ago
@@smoke-le-bloke Papyrus said he didn't know what will happen after he gives the human to Asgore.
So killing him is NOT justified.
Papyrus's death is never justifiable, I can never do genocide route again just for that
When in Waterfall, is killing monsters like Shyren that justifiable when Shyren's encounter text is literally her hiding in the corner?
Also monster kid
Gibran Jabbour Pereira Monster Kid does try to kill you.
@@goommooster7572 no
@@goommooster7572 no he doesn't, in the monster kid "fight" YOU are the one who makes the fight happen, not him
Phoenix Henderson No, he specifically says you’re going to have to go through him
There is a good justification: the war never ended.
underrated
Yeet
Hey, Frisk just needed to finish what the past generations have started, and Frisk did it by himself too
Frisk : "Peace was never an option"
Filip Nikolic take no prisoners
5:20 Err... If you are on a no mercy run, then he immediately spares you, saying that he can be your friend and steer you away from your dangerous path.
Ryan Hood
You can’t kill someone on a hunch, only if you’re actively in danger. In your scenario you should end the fight and then stay away from him.
@@gamer4life592 The tiles dont hurt you tho?
Okay, everyone, all Papyrus wants is to impress Undyne, either way, he is very naive, so he probably doesn't even know how much it could hurt you! He is like a little child, has no clue what they are doing.
@@gamer4life592 Just because he puts u through some puzzles does not give u the right to kill a man Duh
@@gamer4life592 monster kid and hlad ymmy kinda disprove this though
Am I the only one that didnt know "proving you were strong enough" to toriel was gonna kill her. like I thought she was just gonna let me go but she died and now I feel really bad
Yeah, she never tried to kill you either, once your hp get low enough, she actively tries to miss you. I think that it’s only in hard mode that you can die to her.
Where Toriel was clumsy and was shocked of what she did.
@@RandomPerson-cm2wg She can accidentally kill you in neutral and pacifist
Cybernotickid 1987 Meh, she’s still shocked when she accidentally kills you and there were attacks that actively tries to miss you.
@@RandomPerson-cm2wg Yeah
yeah
Toriel just wanted to keep you safe from Asgore.
Papyrus just wanted to impress Undyne.
Undyne just wanted to stop you from killing anyone else.
Mettaton just wanted to stall you so the other monsters could evacuate.
Sans just wanted you to leave the undertale timelines alone.
But you? ...you just wanted to complete the game.
And that's what I aim for. I don't care if it is not ethic
@@kichiroumitsurugi4363 One cannot justify murder/genocide.
Danganraptor it’s literally a fictional game😂
@@lenaparker362Okay? We can still discuss stuff that happens in it, can't we?
I just wanted to explore everywhere and I got assaulted again and again and again and again…
Q: why do you do the genocide path?
A: to listen to "battle against a true hero" and " megalavonia "
Dylan Nichol dude; that’s epicccc
Alexa, play Battle against a true hero!
Alexa, play megalovania!
WOW, I CAN LISTEN TO THOSE WITHOUT ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GENOCIDE ROUTE!!! YAY!!!
There are more good song than in genocide
Hey! Have you ever heard of this thing called *RUclips?* You can listen to genocide themes without playing Genocide
Wow, crazy concept right!?😃
Go Weegee yeah but you don’t get the fun of the fight
In the genocide path, you are walking around and waiting for monsters to come.
Frisk/Chara even makes a smiley face.
Gusiguess oh good, more monsters to gain more hp so I don’t die.
Ye?-
Junzhuo Zhong ye but you can’t really die sooooooo
Gusiguess it still justifies why you kill them. Besides, you don’t know if you have a limit to dying or not. I wouldn’t try it.
Gusiguess dude I’m justifying why you can kill them nothing else. I’m not justifying why you should murder all of them cause you clearly don’t in the genocide run.
The thing is: on Genocide, Papyrus doesn’t try to hurt you. He doesn’t attack you, he spares you, and you choose to murder him.
He quickly spares you so in genocide it isn't really justified
And well technically he can just lie?
@@societygoku6376
What, The Great Papyrus never lies!
It Is SeLf DeFeNsE
@@tear959
How, Genocide, self defence?
That’s stupid!
5:44 not actually because Papyrus spares you on the genocide route
Not to mention that he is completely incompetent and unable to contain you in his cage.
@@RandomPerson-cm2wg Which makes him a non-credible threat, rendering any Papy killing murder.
@@erynncollier8672
Anyone know the Undertale song Way Way Deeper Down?
Sans in the song states quite clearly: If I’m being honest, my brother ain’t not but harmless.
Also Whimsun a monster you ment in the ruins which does not attack you at all and can be spared right away.
@@RandomPerson-cm2wg pap isn't incompetent or dum. He has morals
"Why the genocide run is justified"
Goes by neutral route logic
@The Good Demon Maybe they just really couldn't get past that leaf puzzle.
The Good Demon how do we know the human is trying to kill them all first off because that’s the problem with this subject is that not many people take the perspective of the human who has fallen and no knowledge of these creatures/monsters
But hey it’s your opinion
@@dankboi_ you can just lower their health and spare them
death light true but I feel like the human doesn’t know that tbh but true
Bruh what about me then
Am I the only nerd who decoded the Wingdings at the end of the video? xD it's "HE HAS GONE TOO FAR. THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES." if I'm not mistaken. I tried to go through all the comments to check if anyone else noticed that but I gave up after the first 100 or so lmao
Dirty Mind Gene I’m noticed nerd
Nah I didn’t
I though that no one saw that....
Your not alone
FireKid 21 You’re
6:13 I like how he leaves out the part where you literally attempt to murder an innocent child, who is then saved by undyne. 5:43 Also, Papyrus straight up says that he wants to teach you how to be kind and to not kill. Not to mention that all non boss monsters can be spared if you get their health low enough, meaning that even if you do attack, you can still end things peacefully. Plus, some monsters like whimsum don't want to fight, and can be spared immediately.
On the Genocide path, Papyrus doesn't ever attack you, therefore there is no justification for killing him in Genocide.
Maybe after all times when monsters attempted to kill Frisk, it actually expected anything from Papyrus to happen. So Frisk would be truly sure that it won't be captured.
@@theceoofeggmansempire5214
But first he explains to you that you need to turn back it’s not too late to be good and that he still wants to be your friend. You killed even after he explained that, which is pure murder.
@@BruhTNT4258 It's truly hard to believe someone after your "Goat-mom" also attempted to kill you.
Yes you rite that like you bihing atack by a spider so now you sood make all the spiders go poof. No mater how you poot it you steel jast cost a genocide to apend that is never a good. There is a sehing that the rode to hell is made by good intensens. No mater what you say killing is killing no mater what your intensens.
@@Adam-wg2rf
Everyone: You need to look at the human’s perspective!
Me: The human’s Perspective? The human’s perspective?
Frisk got bored of Pacifist and got curious of the Genocide ending.
Yeah, that’s their perspective!
"Maybe the human doesn't know that you can spare others."
I would agree to that if Toriel didn't say in the beginning of the game that you can talk to monsters instead of killing them
Toriel cant be spared by talking, so...the only chance to go forward is to kill her(i wont let her trap me in the ruins forever)
Or just wait for them to give in
@@ExDixionconderogaThe only bosses who work like that are Toriel,Papyrus and Asriel
Mettaton can be finished early if you get required rating so i dont count him
Toriel's point was to stall for time until she arrives to resolve the encounter for the human, like she does with the first Froggit we encounter by staring at them intimidatingly. Despite being told to stay in that hallway where she leaves us, and where we may actually wait long enough for her to pick us up, we a) still a human, and presumably a child, whose curiosity or anxiety might get the better of them and drive them to go into the ruins alone, and b) considering that Flowey attacked us the very first moment we've been in and tried to deceive us to do so, what credit of trust any monster's word has to the human at that point in time to stay alone and wait for unspecified amount of time? Not a lot, when you are alone in the dark, where creatures you do not phatom reside, and might be driven also by cold, hunger or fear.
UT's genocide route feels almost like an inverse creepypasta game. The game goes like any normal creepypasta game, where you try to run away and escape the threat. However this threat always finds you, and murders you. In Undertale this same logic applies, except you're the threat, and everyone tries to run away and escape you. But just like every creepypasta game, if you go with it, the threat wins. You win.
Exactly. You're the scary thing everyone's trying to run away from. You're basically a serial killer on genocide runs.
... Or do you? You see, the creepypasta formula is incomplete. We don't know what happens to the game's universe after the threat proved they were stronger than us in a regular creepypasta game. In Undertale however, this gap is filled up to a point. A power greater than the threat, which may or may not be a part of the threat themselves, arises, and either punishes or drives the threat insane once they have nothing else to destroy. It's up to interpretation.
I've seen a Chara .EXE creepypasta game somewhere, however it's more like spoopypasta.
A true UT-based creepypasta game would be one that puts you in Alphys's shoes as a Genocide run is taking place. Because you can't murder Alphys in-game, it's more hopeful... Or maybe even more nightmarish. You see, Alphys will have to remember her Amalgamates AND the death of monsterkind forever. And in case that isn't bad enough, let's talk resets. This is all just a bad dream, and she's never waking up. If she could remember, which for a creepy setting, let's just give ourselves some artistic freedom, let's just say she does, it's torture, especially if we asume the kid enjoys murder and never changes their mind, resets take place inmediately after the genocide run ends and we see the intro again, and that Alphys can't feel or see the 5 minutes the game gets stuck in the black screen.
***** Sounds cool!
***** The best of it all, is that due to everyone else not remembering, nobody else can understand Alphys's pain. At one point we could see her jump into the abyss at the area with the endless cycle of worthless garbage. She commits suicide, only to wake up again, in her bed, in a brand new RESET. Only to realise not even death can save her. In fact, this is how Sans is theorized to feel. However I don't think he can remember. He speaks about time anomalies in the geno route like he knows they exist, but it doesn't look like he can experience those anomalies personally. "That look on your face..." He's just good at reading you.
7:08
"Muffet is essentially the equivalent of someone charging an unaffordable price for medicine"
Isn't that just America?
*cough* CHILE *cough*
@@EarlyOwOwl weeeeeeena chuchesumare
@@ame-chan579 wena po :D
Maybe we should stop the thinking there…
Fire Blade yeah
One problem with that, though. In the Genocide Run, Papyrus spares you immediately, with no intent of fighting you. By this logic there is no justification for killing him under the circumstances you describe.
He updated the video with an annotation at the start kinda explaining it
Explanation:he would have locked you in a dog cage instead
Killing Papyrus is a mercy, so he does not have to see everyone around him die for their crimes.
@AleNoConstancy none od puzzles wiek on genocide
@alice niu no he doesn't even try to do that on the genocide route
Vulkin actually thinks her magma heals you, she doesn't want to hurt you. And tEMMIE just wants to pet you but doesn't realize you're allergic.
Why the heck are you calling vulkin an her
And hotland is a place where everyone tries evacuation
@@sleekyissleepyvulkin looks female
"Two wrongs don't make a right, therefore it's okay to kill asgore because he killed people."
I'm actually dying from irony overdose right now.
Tru
Ikr
So am I, bud, so am I.
two wrongs don't make a right
a wrong and a right make a wrong and a right
Asgore's killing is more justified than this
The thing is I want to agree. But I can’t. None of these murders are justified. The reason being is that in the Genocide route you are the bad guy (Sans attacks first when you usually do, signaling that you are the boss).
Flowery touches your no no
Toriel kidnapped you
Papyrus kidnapped you
Undyne attacked you first
Mettaton attacks you first
That’s neutral route bud. In every boss fight in Genocide you attack first (minus sans, but at that point he has a reason). Toriel was trying to protect you, Papyrus is actually trying to bargain with you in Genocide, and you one shot Undyne before she even attacks. Murder is only justified when your killing the bad guy or they are attacking you.
@@huddyYT he said in the no mercy run, and it still happens that way
@@huddyYT but thinking about what underlab stated, from the human's perspective, it has a reason to attack despite attacking first or not: killing toriel in order to be free again and not being captured in the ruins, killing papyrus so he doesn't bring you to undyne, killing undyne in order to survive since she really insists on you dying for the monsters' sake. had the human not killed these bosses, it wouldn't survive either, which leads to asgore getting all 7 souls and declaring war on humanity. plus the undyne-one-shot wasn't actually targeted at undyne, it was targeted at the monster kid but she intervened.
@@songotenblack4725 genocide and no mercy are different. Genocide you are evil enough to spark action from sans, unlike in the no mercy neutral run.
Problems:
Pacifist:
From a human's perspective, the monsters are playing genocide at first.
From a monster's perspective, they are defending themselves, stopping when they realized you are friendly/neutral and is reluctant to fight back.
Neutral:
From a human's perspective, the monsters are killing machines.
From a monster's perspective, it is an act of self-defense, and also you are a human, and humans should die.
Genocide:
From a human's perspective, it is an act of self-defense.
From a monster's perspective, the humans are nuclear bombs.
And here's why:
Basic History: Humans fear the monster's ability to absorb a human SOUL, possessing incredible powers. They declared war on monsters and won. Monsters got sealed in a huge rock cave with a magic barrier, which allow only ones with human souls can cross.
The monsters believe that all humans are the creatures with the intent of killing every last one of them and wants to avoid that by killing them first. The idea became a dominant piece of their mind when Asriel died because of humans.
Asgore declares war once more on humans, saying "Every humans that enters here, shall never leave with their bodies."just to gain hope once more among the monsters. Toriel disagrees and attempts to prevent humans from leaving the RUINS, because she knows that if you leave, you die to ASGORE. And when you do die to asgore, he goes to break the barrier and revenge on humanity for the murder of his son. By blocking you from venturing to the rest of the Underground, Toriel is saving both humans and monsters from dying to another war. Except that all monsters would be dead, including herself.
How is genocide self defence when you are actively searching for monsters
What you are saying is holocaust is self defence.
This list is absolutely right.
@@turkepic3637 Keep in mind that the character you are playing as is a human child who comes from the modern world where monsters are considered fictional and also beings that are to be feared. Children are the most helpless of the human species as they lack knowledge, empathy, and understanding of the world around them and if tf they do end up in a dangerous situation where someone tells you they want to kidnap and kill you then you have every right to get away from them by what ever means necessary.
In reality if a child entered a world like this they be freaked out of their minds to the point they would start killing these monsters even more so since they repeatedly threaten how much they want to kidnap and kill you along with other humans not to mention have already killed 6 other children who ended up there. So, yes Genocide is still justifiable.
@@CynderSpirit no , genocide is still not justified. Are you sane? Children have the ability to emphasize , they do have some knowledge , though they lack general understanding of the world.
If a child gets freaked out , escaping would be first priority. Not MURDER.
If we eliminate player , the most used option would be flee until Toriel. Now that's a hard one. Killing Toriel might be justified IF there is no resets happening to this point. Heck even so , I give it a pass. Every boss fight is Okay.
I don't understand what is genocide in Undertale and irl. You don't defend yourself. You spend time looking for the enemy. You LOOK for them to KILL them. For another problem. Frisk's age and backstory. Age matters because knowledge of a 6 year old differs massively from 12 year old and will effect the results.
Frisk's background , were they raised in a dangerous environment or were they in a wealthy and happy family ?
There is no "one type of human", as you might know too. A human has so many variables that deciding is impossible.
But how genocide works , doesn't change. You will actively search for monsters , and destroy them. Also , in genocide papyrus will ACTIVELY spare you , a HUMAN let alone a child would accept it , especially if they are aware of wtf is reset. Again , Frisk's age complicates how "aware" they are.
But just imagine someone offering a hug to your messed up mind to cure it and you murder him with cold blood with one punch and keep this face (-_-). Yeah , what a child would do irl.
@@turkepic3637 Flowey offered us friendly pellets that tried to kill us and he acted friendly at first, why should the character trust other monsters not to do the same after knowing that they very well want to capture and kill you. Not to mention 6 other children have also died in their world and nobody cared about them dieing in fact Undyne along with many other monsters most likely participated in their killing. Not to mention these monsters also threaten to destroy humanity once they get out of the underground after they took your soul in order to do so.
You are also allowed to kill in self defense if that is what it takes in order to get away, children are taught this at very early age, Toriel blocks you and attacks you to the point she could very well kill you, to some children they would have tooken what she was saying or doing as kidnapping. I also never said kids could not emphasize I said they lack it.
This video explains it more ruclips.net/video/0qguH8Jd0GQ/видео.html
This only justifies neutral. Genocide means you go out of your way to attack.
Tuxedobird and how is it unjustified? The human is only killing monsters that threatened them and the human cannot kill the monsters without the monsters initiating their battle phase first.
Junzhuo Zhong So if someone tries to kill me I should go kill the innocent to get stronger? Okay.
Tuxedobird That’s literally a self contradiction?p. If someone tried to kill you, how can you kill innocents if they aren’t innocent?
And how exactly are the monsters innocent? They declared war on the humans just because their king’s children died because Chara poisoned themselves so Asriel can absorb their soul, and the humans killed Asriel because they assumed that he killed Chara.
If killing 7.8 billion humans just because they acted out of self defense is considered to be innocent, then why is the human’s actions unjustified just because they merely killed over 100, which is like a small portion of the monster race, judging by how many souls Asriel released when he broke the barrier.
Junzhuo Zhong Yeah, But frisk doesn’t know this. Frisk in this case would be immediately trying to kill someone. Also, in this run you hunt them down, so really they’re the ones using self-defense.
That is true, I do not deny that, however, the human cannot actively kill the monsters unless the monsters were the ones to first initiate the encounter. So every monster that the human killed was because the monsters WILLINGLY wanted to Fight(and kill) the human. At best, the human is simply challenging someone to a duel and the monster is making the duel happen by supplying the weapons and the area they can fight in.
And like I said, how is it unjustified for the human to hunt down monsters, the same monsters who want to do the same thing to humans but on an even higher scale?
When you do grinding, you are looking for monsters. You only grind when in genocide, so you are trying to kill them first.
na u could be just dancing
zhang Bill yeah
You're just walkin' around and monsters attack you
so taking a stroll in the underground counts as grinding?
This whole video says
" how to be comfortable and not feel bad about making monsterkind extinct."
The video is like when a kid punches another kid and says ''well, he started it".
Well, that's what the Neutral path is for!
@@TheRojo387 The only monsters that you have no justification for killing is Whimsun and maybe Moldsmal only because they can be spared straightaway.
I never played undertale, but if I did I would be straight pacifist, no killing whatsoever, no hitting whatsoever, I would have done like 50 pacifist runs.
Probably. But what do I do? I can’t delete the game, or the timeline gets deleted too. So are you saying I should just let it sit in my computer and take up space?
Yeah. Probably.
whoah, whoah, I was all for it until you said the (blue) magic word. "Papyrus". Papyrus is only "Hell-bent" on capturing you because it is his dream to join the royal guard, he says when he captures you, he will send you to the capital... and he doesn't know what happens next, heck, he probably doesn't even know what the royal guard does, also, he poses no threat what-so-ever,
he doesn't even kill you, he just.... puts you in a shed.... that... you can easily escape from.... and even if you keep losing to him he just lets you go past, I mean I could understand the argument, "but he's trying to kill me so i'll kill him" if it was actually happening to you, but even when you attack him, when he's left with only a small amount of hp, he says something along the lines of "ok you win, you can spare me now". So either way, you basically are never FORCED to kill Papyrus.
also, right before the fight, after you've done some of his goofy (yet quite dangerous) puzzles he tells you things about himself, right before you fight him, he explains how he would like to be your friend but dismisses the idea, because then he wouldn't be able to be a royal guard, during the fight he says how he is starting to become reluctant to fight you, this is assuming a neutral run.
Matthew Hogan And during the genocide run, Paps doesn't attack you at all. He immediately spares you.
originalyaoilover18 ikr
Matthew Hogan I tried to do the genocide route, got to Pap, literally could not do it.
my feelings exactly
A psychopath can apply this sort of logic to killing anyone in real life. Really, Sans admits that self-defense would be justified, but he doesn't understand why his harmless brother would be murdered.
Zorro9129 or monsterkid I mean he did nothing
saikous are not always killers..... thats discrimination
Zorro9129
Psychosis and Psychopathy are two entirely different things. But yes, most forms of moral logic can justify murder and other such actions.
Gary Correia
True, but there is still judicious use of force to consider. For most monsters it is possible to spare them by weakening them rather than killing them.
*cough*
Monster Kid.
All that needs to be said, funny how Underlab conveniently forgot about him.
JSHADOWM
And the fact that our have to chase every monster and slaughter them senselessly.
Monster kid attacks you first by "Standing in your way." Literally that's him attacking you, you do not start the conflict with monster kid.
Oh no! Not the standing!
Anything but that!
Syxx V Ralrock But he does not inflict damage to you.
When a Monster kills a Human: Meh
When a Human kills a Monster: *Everybody goes crazy*
Edit: wow, people are taking this seriously
I mean it is not "Meh", the game just doesnt show what happens next since you reload your previous save.
when a monster kills a human because they think they r weak but if the human attacks back and the monsters realize the humans is actually stronger than they think the human is so they go crazy
@Filip Nikolic Why wouldn't you? Besides, nothing happens after you get out of the barrier. The only option is to reset. Maybe Sans knows that and that is why he only fights you in genocide, as in any other run you are just going to go back and therefore it doesn't matter what you did.
@@Idk-tq5uu monster attacks human in ruins out of fear. If you attack them they try to spare you. Froggits even run away
@@Idk-tq5uu
That’s just bollocks.
Monster in Undertale already admits humans are stronger due to Determination.
9:08 Congratulations, it seems Flowey has more emotions than you
it´s just a game
@@analiliarodriguezmarquez8001 Undertale isn't just a game
Is a life lesson
mhm so it's ok to commit mass genocide on a species because it's just a game
@@rubyboi5819 you are an idiot
@@rubyboi5819 Absolutely. I paid for the whole game, and so I'm going to play the whole game. It's not a matter of killing, but to experience each ending-pacifist, neutral, and genocide-for ourselves. You're becoming oversensitive to creatures that exist in a two dimensional, fictional realm. Plus, the Sans duel is pretty badass.
Rebuttal: Killing Shyren is necessary for the genocide run. Her battle entrance specifically mentions her hiding in a corner yet encountering you anyway. Her attacks are completely pathetic, purposely so, unless you take the steps needed to spare her.
I admit I didn't look at every minor character individually! This video is really why you can kill "mostly" every monster guilt free, though I really couldn't find a way to make that into a concise or interesting title :P
+Underlab You could say "Killing main Undertale characters justified"
Actually, when you assume that the monsters will be a part of an army that will try to attack humanity it is doubtlessly justified and the blame falls on the government that has such a stated purpose and has already killed 6 humans.
They never make it clear who killed the humans and the fallen child has no way of knowing.
Being constantly attacked justifies on top of the fat that SHE DAMAGES THE CHILD AND CAN KILL HIM.
There is no real way to argue away from this without confusing what the player knows and what the fallen child in a "genocide run" would know.
The child only knows he/she is in danger and no sane system of ethics would say "You must show great patience with people trying to kill you."
Heart2Heartnet24: To be fair, it's implied that attacks to the soul have never been used before or even known to humans. Frisk has to learn what determination even is.
The Copyright Outlaw
Asgore:
He protecc
He atacc
And his son stabz him in da bacc
Really???,!!!
M new
Pacafist: most memorable ending
Genocide: most memorable boss (sans)
Neutral: most terrifieng/intense boss
Depends on your version of intense
@@stephenhinds3160 very overwhelming
t h e n w h y'd y o u k i l l m y b r o t h e r?
there's one thing you didn't justify. the fact that, in the genocide route, papyrus spares you. he doesn't attempt to capture you at all in the fight. he doesn't attack you. only sparing you
micheal has rosen And same with monster kid.
micheal has rosen Sparing means nothing. He set human-traps (that are deactivated by flowey in the genocide run), so he already shown his will to block my way and take me to undyne who will kill me. And now he cowardly wants to run away ? That's no good.
Even worse, Sans one shot you when you spare him; that means that Frisk let himself open to attack when he spares. Knowing that, he'd NEVER spare.
Snipfragueur actually Papyrus’s traps don’t harm you in any ways. And when he defeats you he merely places you in an unlocked shed. He never harms you in any way that proves fatal. Monster kid asks if you are as bad as everyone says. He doesn’t attack you no matter what. He is literally a kid who wants to know if you are evil. And Frisk attacks him.
Nicholas Ali The electric maze kinda hurt tho... and he didn't expect you to escape. He isn't nice, he is just stupid.
And Frisk never touch Monster Kid. He aims at Undyne. There is no way Undyne can be fast enough to intercept Frisk's attack, or there wouldn't even be a fight against a monster with this kind of speed. Therefore, we can only assume that Frisk is aiming at Undyne.
After attacking you that is
One day, I drank an entire bottle of the Dead Sea's water.
And it was not as salty as this comment section.
LOL
Chèvre Chamane LOL
R u ok?
This is godly
@@whominagingma5902 yes
Loox: kills human
Toriel: oh ok idk
Asgore: says he will kill a human
Toriel: surprised picachu face
Everyone: chara why did you kill everyone
Chara: Hey I just wanted to listen to megalovania
fanon
SuperJuancho21 it was a joke of course it’s not cannon
Ah, the negotiator
I did genocide just to fight sans...
Please tell Chara about RUclips, Spotify and other ways to listen music!
what about monster kid? why do we attack him?
free exp. >=)
3DHarcosok It says because he's in your wau
True. Free *LOVE* is not something we can just take. Ye, he attacks you, but still. After all the monsters you killed...I'm not surprised.
+Blaze Blockade It never forces you to. You have a choice when you encounter Monster Kid in Genocide runs. You either spare him or try to kill him too and Undyne steps in to save him. The game never forces the player to kill anyone in this game and even encourages you not to. Not even Asgore. Not even Flowey. There are times where you'll have to fight. But fighting is not synonymous with killing.
+PeridotEra2 WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHOILDREN?!
I have something against this. When you fight the glad Dummy in genocide he is well glad and has no content in attacking you. But you still kill him. Not very "justifiable". Also that's just messed up! After he finds happiness you have to kill him! And people say sans death was sad...
Uh.... Thats Underfell, not Undertale.
What is underfell in that comment? All that happens in Undertale?
Gabriel DeMarco in undertale, mad dummy knows you are genocidal. He/she becomes so angry they transfix or become fully corporeal or something and become glad dummy.
Gabriel DeMarco no, in the game mad dummy turns glad and spares you during genoside
Chaotic 218 I would do the genocide run _just_ to spare Mad Dummy.
i just came for the drama
the comments here didn't dissapoint me
same, lulz
MalekitGJ ***
MalekitGJ same
MalekitGJ *Disappoint
true
You can’t do genocide. Without grinding, you can do a neutral run where everything you interact with dies tho, so that’s what you are justifying
Exactly! A no mercy run. The explination in the video doesn't justify grinding for kills, killing monster kid who never attacks. If it's truely in self defence only then you would never achieve a genocide run, and even Sans won't attack you. Almost certain he even says that the player acted in self defence but could that the player might have a certain power to change their actions! Totally agree with you.
*HOLD IT!*
And what exactly is wrong with shuffling around aimlessly for extended periods of time? Remember, you will still get encounters if you pace the same spot over and over, meaning the monsters themselves are the ones seeking you out, not the other way around! They are coming at you with intent to kill, you're merely defending yourself!
And Monster Kid... sure, he seems harmless, but you know who else seemed harmless? Flowey. Right before he puts you on the brink of death in an instant. How do we even know he's a kid, anyways? Sure, he's small, but there's plenty of even smaller monsters that we don't just assume to be kids. Face it, the only reason we even assume him to be a kid is because he's called that by the game!
And need i remind you that Frisk was perfectly happy to live and let live, right up to the point when monster kid himself confronts him, and declares his intention to fight! Speaking of which, shall I go down the list of other monsters Frisk was perfectly happy to let live? Gerson, The Temmie Shopkeeper, Burgerpants...
Boy, for a genocidal maniac, Frisk sure seems friendly to people that aren't brazenly trying to kill or trap him. He even struck up a friendly conversation with a couple of them. What a deranged psycho.
@@VeryPeeved At The Save Points, You Literally Have A Number Of Monsters You Have To Kill: I.E.: "40" In Hotland. You, The Player, Controlling Frisk, Are Literally Hunting Down Monsters.
Plus, Justify How, When We Enter A Fight With Shyren, It Says "Shyren Is Standing In A Corner"? WE Attacked First.
If You Don't Grind, The Monsters Don't Attack, Only The Ones That Already Attacked.
@@VeryPeeved you do realize that the murder dance isnt an actual canon part of the canon and that in reality you are literally searching all around the place, right?
@@VeryPeeved they are walking ny and you just start a fight and kill them
From the monster's perspective, attacking a human is self-defense. After all, the humans attempted to exterminate them in the past, which is the whole reason they're in the underground in the first place. Through legends and history, humans will have been made into this evil, soul-devouring menace that lurks even now just above ground, waiting to destroy them at any moment. You sparing them is them ceasing their attacks when they realize that you're not hostile and withdrawing.
Toriel *knew* that if she let you pass, then not only would you die to Asgore, it would lead to Asgore ascending to being something on the level of his son at the end of the game, and then taking revenge on humanity for the murder of his son. In attempting to keep you there, she's not just attempting to spare your life, she's attempting to save all of humanity from a similar death. Eye for an eye, but Toriel knows that makes the whole world blind. And even *then,* she tried to put up *just* enough of a fight to discourage you from continuing onwards, and she doesn't even have the fortitude to keep THAT up when you refuse to fight her. She's obviously horrified when she accidentally kills you. Her hypocrisy is most likely her projecting her guilt and sadness onto Asgore.
Papyrus only does what he does because he's naive. He thinks that real life works like anime (though, to be fair, life in the underground has some definite resemblance towards anime). He's been ordered to capture humans, but he doesn't understand *why,* just that he's been told to do it, and by a personal hero of his no less.
Undyne shares the same opinion of humanity as the other monsters. Namely, that humans are the evilest of evils, and that the only way that monsters can possibly survive and thrive is if humanity, their worst and greatest enemies, were destroyed. She no doubt regrets having to take any life for this goal, but believes that it's necessary if monster kind, her friends and loved ones, are to survive.
Alphys is... disconnected from the real world at best. She is rather like Papyrus, though from a different perspective: she doesn't really understand the consequences of her actions or why certain things might be bad for her or for others. Part of this very well might be escapism and trauma on her part from her participation in the experiments with determination, where a real, tangible attempt to save lives and resurrect monsters just so they could be with their families again failed due to things that she could have never predicted. Thus, her inability to correctly perceive the world, and her obsession with anime, is a coping mechanism that she uses to deal with her own psychological damage. She might not even really comprehend that she's putting you in danger.
Muffet believes you to be a horrible person who wiped out the spiders that had been long trapped in the Ruins. She is honestly misinformed, and simply didn't know that you didn't actually *do* anything. She's angry and distraught, and is attempting to exact her revenge on what she views as a psychotic murderer. Additionally, her overpricing is entirely in response to this as well, and is most likely entirely restricted to you.
Mettaton fights you for the same reasons as Undyne and all the other monsters: because from Mettaton's perspective, you're evil. Mettaton's earlier attacks were more or less due to Alphys' interference, given that she sent him against you. Mettaton's main issues are his tunnel vision and his obsession with fame, which lead into him abandoning Napstablook and then attacking and attempting to kill you. In the end, you help Mettaton realize that he really did accomplish what he wanted to, and that he doesn't need to fight. Thus, he allows your passage.
Sans has meta awareness. Obviously, he's aware of things that none of the other monsters are, like the fact that you're neither evil nor hostile (except on the Genocide route). However, he takes no steps to warn the other monsters of this, because in the end, there's no point. He lost hope a long time ago. Him attacking you is a kind of empty resignation to the inevitable, and attempting to change your path by frustrating you, knowing that it's all worthless in the end.
Asgore, in the end, is more or less just as justified in his campaign against humanity as you are justified in killing monsters that attack you. Asgore in the aboveground would be just like you in the underground: namely, that he would be more or less just acting in self-defense. It's just that he'd have a secondary motive: revenge.
Flowey is a husk of someone that once lived, soulless and undeniably sad. Killing him is something close to mercy, in a way, ending his empty existence, even if it doesn't have the wonder of his redemption.
Is Frisk fighting back against the monsters justified? From a meta perspective, absolutely not. From their perspective... they're a child, why would they ever think of fighting back outside of the player's intervention? Essentially, without the player, they wouldn't fight the monsters anyway and the monsters would relent when they realized this. With the player, they're not justified because the player possesses meta knowledge.
camolotthe42 well said man you made some great points
But all of this implies that the child would know of this, which it doesn't. Bringing the PLAYERS knowledge into this is completely out of place because the entire video was talking about the child's perspective, despite bringing up some background info about certain characters. All the child knows is that it's beeing attacked. If someone came up to you with a knife and tried to murder you for your money or expensive watch or whatever you have, would you for even a second think about why they do it? 'Curse not because within that second you'd be dead. In the child's eyes it is only protecting itself which justifies every single encounter except for the monster kid and maybe alphys.
TheBennyester there’s characters that don’t attack u tho like napstablook
That is what I said in the last sentece, but I used other examples.
Quick and meta answer: it's a game, and the monsters attacking first encourages the player to fight, just like most games.
Thoughtful answer: because all they know is that humankind fought their people, killed and defeated them ages ago, and sealed them underground in possible eternal banishment. Just as if an enemy infiltrated one of our camps or bases, we'd try to kill him, or capture him if our troops felt like it. If an Antichrist took over the world, a lot of people would fight against him and his "well meaning" forces.
my theory is that Sans is breaking his promise not because you killed everyone, but because you're literally about to erase the world.
Edit: I think Toby Fox implied on Twitter that Undyne confirmed in-game that Asgore directly killed all of the 6 fallen humans between Chara and Frisk.
+mc Charles Yah it is confirm.
Proof?
I can't find the tweet, but he said the humans didn't make it past Asgore. *Past* Asgore, not *to* Asgore.
even if toby confirmed it.... how would frisk know that?
Great Duck Well, Undyne mentions that none of the previous fallen humans made it past Asgore. Although that's in the neutral route, so a Genocide-only Frisk never finds that out.
Underlab: Turns the logo around
Me:Turns my phone around so i can see the logo normally
Also me: Yeah, its big brain time
People seem to overlook why the monsters were sealed in the first place. If a single monster manages to steal a soul on the surface, they would become powerful enough to murder 6 other humans. Basically, it wouldn't take long for a monster with a gun and desire for power to become a god.
very good point xD
Jennifer Guajardo
I guess 'dusting' them before the 5'th kill with extreme hatred and prejudice might be a solution.
If I remember: hate weakens them.
Heck, a monster with a desire for power wouldn't even have to murder, he could just wait outside of a retirement home or hospital and quietly collect the souls of the dead.
But isn't that kinda racist/speciesist??
Francisco Grilo well why do you think wars happen? cause we humans are selfish assholes that loves to take 'precautions'.
and why do people bring up 'equality' as an argument point? I mean, I understand racism but really, give a monster a gun in a crowded area and you're announcing doomsday, im pretty sure you wouldn't want walking timebombs all over the place now do you?
now killing monsters dat ran into you that's alright,but randomly running around to encounter and kill them like you wanted...
these are diffrent.
look,you ran into monsters to attack them,but not all of them WANTED to kill you.
Again, you have to think about this as if you were the human. What Toriel? She basically tried to kidnap you. Papyrus? He was going to have you sent off to be ezecuted. The monsters in Hotland? Last I checked, they were all trying to murder you out of vengeance. Core monsters? Nope. They're mercenaries hired by MTT to kill you. Oh, and if you meant Temmie, then you're still wrong. Temmie tries to kill you too. In the genocide route, you walk around where monsters approach YOU. Not the other way around. The only exception would have to be Sans, since you initiate the fight, and he tries to kill you. So please, from the human's perspective, tell me one monster that doesnt want to kill them.
@@catnat6571 monster kid. Oh, and every monster you don't encounter by playing the game normally. Those jelly things are questionable since you can spare them from the start, and their attacks might not even be conscious. Also, Toriel doesn't try to kill you. Not saying that she's good, injuring a kid "to protect them" is pretty messed up, but trying to talk it out with the person that only helped you up until now makes more sense than just charging at her with an intent of murder. Especially considering that she basically comes to the conclusion that she's wrong on her own if you just don't attack her. Technically you have to press "spare", but it doesn't say what you do by pressing it, so it's the same as doing nothing.
Also, I like to think that monsters just stop attacking you after 5-ish battles, since the way Toby made it doesn't make much sense. Also, some fights are just dumb, Aaron/Shyren/Napstablook and many others are obviously not trying to kill you, no idea why you can take damage in those fights. As much as I like Undertale's gameplay integration into the lore, it's just not done properly for a lot of fights. It being a mistake makes much more sense that it being a design decision.
@@zeratulrus142 Monster kid, fine. But what do you mean other monsters you encounter? Undyne the Undying? Sans? Mettaton Neo? Who? Literally everyone tries to murder you, no matter what mode you play. And Toriel tries to basically kidnap you.
@@catnat6571 I said the once you DON'T encounter. Which is over 60% in a normal run, even if you backtrack several times.
Cat Nat toriel could kidnap me and i'd be totally fine with it ;^0
Random person : Jerry?! Jerry, where are you?!
Me : FORGET JERRY, JERRY’S *DEAD*
(A bit late to comment on this video I know, but I’m commenting anyways)
- Going through the genocide run is not justifiable in any shape or form, Frisk is as self aware as the player is and that is immediately proven by some of the interactions you have when checking objects in specific areas and when Frisk moves on his own without you controlling him, when doing that, he essentially knows what his opponent’s next move is (and by doing that, it shows that you as Chara have the intent to kill without hesitation).
- When you “aimlessly go around the room”, you’re objective by doing that is to literally find and encounter the monsters yourself and kill them, the monsters are trying to run away from you while you’re trying to hunt them down.
- Even if you’re trying to prove that it’s justifiable to kill the monsters considering the fact that they attack you first, that wasn’t the case for some of the other innocent monsters you harm like Papyrus or Monster Kid, even with some of the other monsters like Froget that don’t even know what brought them in front of you (if you look at the text with Froget, it says something along the lines of “Froget doesn’t seem to know what brought them here” indicating that 1) you found him and now you are about to kill him 2) Froget accidentally went into an interaction with you and yet you decide to cause his demise).
- It’s by the time that you’ve made it past Snowden and enter Waterfall when every monster starts running away from you. The smile that pops up when encountering a monster indicates that you wanted that encounter and you most probably was the one that started it due to how sadistic you are by that point and how terrified the monsters are from you. Undyne is only considered the “true heroin” once you try to murder an innocent child that didn’t even want to hurt you. By the point you’ve killed Undyne, every monster you counter is just trying to stop you from causing anymore harm to monster kind.
- I’ve already mentioned that Frisk knows as much as the player does in my first paragraph, keeping that in mind would mean that Frisk is considered evil once you start a genocide run, since Frisk has gone through all the other alternatives and has practically studied every monster you encounter in the underground. Frisk is your desires to what you want to do and cause in Undertale, you quite literally make up Frisk, and what you want out of the genocide run is to discover the truth that you’ve never witnessed before and to see what happens when killing the monsters (which on its own is incredibly sadistic and psychopathic) which inevitably leads to summoning a demonic being (Chara) that was one of the biggest if not the biggest reason to why the underground has suffered so much, Chara leaves out clues telling you about her revival or at least telling you something bad would happen if you end up going through a genocide run throughout your encounters with certain objects and monsters.
- You deciding to desperately fight monsters like Sans and Undyne is preposterous and outright dumb (that is if you attempt to consider genocide being justifiable), Undyne the undying is trying to desperately stop you from destroying her home, friends, and family while you keep flashing back from outside the spacetime continuum to deal more damage and to end up killing her. Once you’ve made it to the judgement hall and meet up with Sans, Sans makes it very obvious that there are better outcomes to this with you resetting and going on with the happy ending, but you still decide to fight and keep on trying to kill Sans even though all he wants is for you to go back in time and do the right thing for all monsters. By the point you make it to Asgore, you’re kicking a dead horse when trying to justify genocide because you can’t, it’s obvious why once you go through the route itself so I won’t bother explain myself.
IT'S A WHOLE FRIGGIN ESSAY!!!???
@@smugpug2189 who knew?
Thank you, all the things in my head summed up, i want to add for Mettaton though i may be wrong
Wasnt they not really made to kill humans? In neutral they just attacked you to help Alphys and to basically make some entertainment in the underground (they pretty much acted to try to kill you to literally pretend to be the villan for you and Alphys), i suppose killing a human is unjustifiable in neutral but the times they appeared them and Alphys will try to make you succeed no matter what, if your not doing it their way at all they still tried to avoid the killing part, Mettaton wasnt built to basically hurt the human in genocide they did it for everyone and to perhaps even buy time for the monsters, what they did in genocide is just what Undyne was trying to do,
Trying to justify a routr thats literally named genocide is just dumb (or trolling) lol
so basically the people who made this episode are idiots
Why do you assume the previous fallen humans were "innocent", we don't know what happened, some of them could've been violent, some of them could've killed Monsters, keep in mind the Yellow Soul had a GUN which you find EMPTY, of course, how and when it was emptied, we don't know, but, still, also, the Blue Soul's tutu is described as "Dusty" and the shoes quote "Make you feel dangerous".
But, another thing that should be taken into account, some of the Monsters that attack don't recognize Frisk as human, also, a lot of them, namely most of the main characters, don't recognize Toriel as the former queen, nor does ANYONE other than the Monsters in New Home mention Asriel. It makes me wonder how many generations of Monsters have passed since Asriel and Chara died and Toriel ran away.
Because of what they represented. Kindness? Integrity? Justice? Those are all inherently good traits. That means half of them were, by default, the good guy. Bravery, patience, and perseverance COULD be evil, or at least not good, but the other half must have been good. The empty gun kinda makes me sad...they were defenseless when they died...out of ammo. But that ventures into head cannon.
Okay, here. Weapons of the souls and defense:
1. Implicitly a kid, Patience’s *toy knife* could really just be for intimidation purposes.
2. Bravery’s *gloves* being “tough”. Maybe thay’s how they looked to the narrator. For the purpose of looking intimidating.
3. *The tutu* could have been sitting there for over a decade ad you expected it to be just fine? And *the ballet shoes* could likely be pointe shoes. Wouldn’t you feel dangerous if your shoes had something tough enough to actually hurt people with?!
4. A *notebook*. Really, what damage can that do? It could be a diary or a fanfic for all we know.
5. The *frying pan* belongs to KINDNESS.
6. *The gun* might be a nerf gun for all we know.
Yeah, but it's the soul of justice. That means that they would only kill if they were enacting justice, something that is inherently good.
UNDERTALE - Unofficial Channel
That would have been brought up in the game.
(Probably)
All 6 souls were children and the last I checked children are of innocents because they don't have the full understanding of the world around them. Children only do what is taught to them and the many things they are taught is monsters are scary and dangerous and to never trust or talk to strangers. Here a child accidentally falls into a world full of monsters who are literally kidnapping and killing these children. Seriously, read the dialog of what Torial is saying and doing in the beginning of the game, yes we learn she is trying to protect you but to a child they have only known this person/monster for only two days and we are expected to trust this person all because they made us pie (Which kids are also suppose to not except food from stangers unless it's Halloween), and then later when you want to leave she has every excuse as why you shouldn't't, to a child they don't know who this person really is and what their intentions. Ever read Hansel and Gretel where two kids are playing in the woods, until a woman who later turns out being a witch pretends to be these kids friends, invites them into her house where she feeds them all kinds of goodies and keep them occupied until she can eat them.
Commit mass genocide because they hit first?
Seems legit.
Lol but who cares in the end its just a game but with a huge child fanbase who obsesses about it to the point if you say i like the genocide run or i dont like undertale they have to overreact over pixels on a screen
Dylan Wingert 2 k.
No, they actually have the stated goal of destroying humanity and the character is told by Toriel that all humans who leave are killed by monsters.
She then tries to kidnap you against your will after conveying that infomation.
I see a lot of people in this comment section being overly emotional and pretending that what we know as humans playing the game and what the fallen child would know or see are the same.
no sane system of ethics would state: You must give great patience to people who will kill you if you aren't careful.
In our own system of law, if someone tries to kill you OR someone you love you can use deadly force to defend yourself.
Never mind when they are, from the eyes of the fallen child a warlike, kidnapping race bent on humanities destruction.
Actually, you get the first turn!
Yeah, totally.
Kill someone if they punch you.
Great decision.
Totally not overreacting.
7:49 Froggit tries to run away from you actually.
7:13 American health Care system: "sweats nervously"
Wrong timestamp
@@togekiss09 bro this comment is a year old
FINALLY I FOUND THE TYPE OF COMMENT I WAS LOOKING FOR!
sans judges you not only because you killed litteraly everyone including his brother and possible lover, but also because in the game you enjoyed it and didn't give anyone a chance. some of the monsters doesnt even want to fight.
Victor Hov Wait, did you Say Possible Lover? Who is sans' Lover?
Toriel.
The Chamie Show
It's the goat Mama
roxy the Wolf :3 But Toby said that sans is too lazy for a relationship,
And isn't Toriel really old, and if sans is an actual monster, then isn't he way younger?
"its just a video game"
How I was able to do the genocide run.
Lucask5664 same
Yes, keep telling yourself that...the characters even make refferences to this being wrong. This game has beings in it, yes they may not actually be consious, but they remember, they have character, they *are real*. That's the point, toying around with the game to find cool stuff is what everyone does, but you never take into account the consequences of your actions, or how you are affecting the world around you.
Boople Doop you can. You just have to hack
same
Lucask5664 “its just a videogame”
Yeah. And your person who cant come up with any better excuses .
Really? Thats just lame
"Two wrongs don't make a right. Therefore it's okay to kill Asgore, because he killed people."
...wtf?
DoubtIsAVirtue Well he does not deserve it is the one who wanted to prolong more time the genocide of humans and Toriel wanted to use the soul they had to go out and kill humans faster and there would be no way to solve in the future
As they did frisk and Asriel at the end
+Sergio Plaza: Your comment is a giant pile of random words.
DoubtIsAVirtue That doesnt even make sense
justified isn't right or wrong. without morality, anything goes. especially self preservation. he killed human children, there is a pattern, a mens rea, and an actus rea, he'd be thrown in a jail cell with basic 101 criminology. but he IS the law. you can lie down and die cuz 'two wrongs don't make a right' most animals understand survival though.
Asgore sort of deserves to die he had the power to free everyone yet he let his people suffer and continued the war against human by slaughtering innocent children.
8:38 "Asgore declared war on humanity".
Humanity declared war on the monsters
Oh wait I just realized that in genocide you don't kill anyone on sight, you instead actively grind against them, so it's not self defense, it's a hunt
We really don't know what sparked the war since we only hear one side of it.
Monsters could've been either the victims or the aggressors and history is biased on the side that speaks of it. A great example of this is The American Revolution. For the Americans it was a war for their freedom while for England it is seen as a betrayal.
@@zendzend5107
But from Undertale we see that the monster aren’t actually hostile towards humans in their genes.
Hence they weren’t aggressive towards humans before the war.
@@BruhTNT4258 seriously, how are you this dumb?
do you even see how almost every monster attacks you
Humans attacked the monsters out if fear of them absorbing human souls.
Humans sealed monsters under Mt.Ebott.
Humans killed Asriel for "killing" The First Fallen Human. (We know that they suicided)
Asgore declared a war on monsters because he lost 2 kids one night.
Still these monsters try to attack me mutiple times and don't spare me but why do I get consequences? It's a video game
Batman:"Self-defense"? that's an excuse. There is always a way.
Eficiencia Infinita I like Bman and all, but I'm gonna pull a Red Hood and bust a cap in all their asses! lol
Hey if Batman said it, it must be true XD.
Yeah haha
Bob Normal Batman: Not enough to put me to his height (also once the Joker helped us to save the universe, that's more people)
Bob Normal Batman: ni idea, en un mundo donde un psicópata puede escapar una y otra vez del acilo mas seguro del mundo uno esperaría que los seres super inteligentes, psíquicos y mágicos inventaran una forma de curarlo o que aumenten constantemente la seguridad de Arkham.
A couple years back, I didn't have the maturity or growth I have today to have enough patience and listen to others' point of view, and Undertale made me somewhat understand how important it is to listen to people's stories and see the hidden pain, confusion, and blinded misinformation they were given and taught from bad experience and history.
It's not always easy to let the burning hate of the ones of suffered, and it's easy to let your own pain lash out at other people because you suffered something in life too.
Sometimes it takes self control and a bit of patience to see that there's a lot more than a facade that says "I hate you!" and screams "I'm hurting and I can't take the risk of being hurt again!"
Here's the thing: All of this is only justifiable IF you're playing for the first time and are totally unaware of the intention or back story of these monsters.
Most people who do genocide run though usually do it after a pacifist run: After they're aware of the happy ending, aware of why the monsters are doing what they're doing, and are even aware that when they get to the surface, things seem to be working out for them.
Most people usually do the genocide run for the sake of either completion or curiosity, considering the fact that in the context of this world, they can restart and undo all their previous damage and assume that once it's over with, they can just go back and do another pacifist run to get a better ending.
I mean, think about it: If you had the power to rewind time and undo everything you did after you did it and restart from earlier points of your life: Would you not be tempted to abuse that power? Especially since there are no consequences (as far as you know) since you can undo any damage and no one will remember a thing? You could literally get away with murder and because you can bring that person back to life with out any memory of what you did, you'll be fine.
I personally find it difficult to justify the genocide run considering how Toby has described other games: He always thought about the implications of slaying monsters/enemies mindlessly in other RPG's and felt that it made the heroes seem less heroic, which is why befriending the monsters in this game is heavily encouraged by not only the game itself, but also when the game was first advertised.
Let's not forget how it seems like Toby Fox made the genocide route as boring/repetitive/grind heavy/redundant as he did: In order to make things less fun, and with how heavy handed the game is by either guilt you or scolding you for your choices. Also the fact that Genocide run has consequences and takes away the chance for another happy ending (True Pacifist Route is now called Soulless Pacifist Route for example, basiccly rubbing in what you did prior)
I don't think Toby Fox would want us justifying the genocide ending when it appears that the whole reason Undertale was designed the way it was was to show the player that the genocide route isn't a good choice.
Though I've heard people justify genocide run for other reasons:
Reason 1: If you don't end the time line permanently, Flowey will just keep resetting to the beginning every time, making all the characters in Undertale stuck in a perpetual time loop forever (Though it's been proven that Flowey can't due this due to Frisks's determination out weighing their own, though I guess it can be determined that when Frisk finally dies some how or if Flowey themselves managed to gain more determination, then this is possible) so this means that killing everyone via genocide run is an act of mercy to finally release them from the time loop.
Reason 2: That the monsters going back to the surface, since it's doubtful humanity will just let them integrate with their society and probably segregate them, and that they'll either all be slain by the humans and die anyway, or that this could be the cause of another human/monster war in which the causalities could be far greater than the mere body count of the genocide run. So by killing all of them, you're essentially sparing them and the rest of a surface from more wide scale destruction.
Reason 3: The fact that the monsters might have destroyed humanity during the ending credits of the Pacifist Route because we don't see the monsters interacting with any humans on the surface, and the humans themselves seem to have disappeared while the monsters are roaming about the city (Though I'm sure there's another explanation for this) thus the monsters all need to be killed to protect humanity on the surface.
I personally disagree with these three statements (despite how understandable they are) since the implication that genocide run is the answer goes against the whole point/message of the game, and the fact that we already have people who believe that wiping off certain groups of people from the face of the earth is the only way to make things better (In other words, they believe the genocide of certain populations is justified for similar reasons) which I think is BS because there's always another way.
Even Toriel said "Strike a friendly conversation" so I can agree that first Froggit is justi(can't spell) but not any other monster (maybe Undyne Metta and Muffet
jezus crist anuthr werd wall
i hat my hed rlly herd on dis on
se i cnt evn spel
None of this is justifiable. Only neutral is; genocide is not. I agree with you that you can't really justify it and that Toby himself tried to make it as blatantly unjustifiable as possible.
Also, all those statements of trying to justify genocide are ridiculous. I disagree with those statements as well. The first and second ones are definitely interesting and I'd love to see them expanded upon, but for the second one... The monsters are miserable being stuck Underground. All of them are so hopeful to reach the Surface. Why not let them try? We actually _see_ the monsters living happily on the Surface in the end. Whether or not that took years of the monsters dealing with prejudices, we don't know, but they do seem happier up there.
The third is especially ridiculous. The game has stated multiple times that monsters are far weaker than humans and that almost _all_ the souls of the monsters would be needed just to equal the power of a single human soul.
How many monsters are there? I'd guess not many more than a thousand, if even that. The Underground is a small place and not conducive to repopulation. And how many humans are there? _Billions._ I'm pretty sure it's impossible for the monsters to destroy humans.
The point is, yes, I agree with you that genocide can't be justified.
The theories/reasons for why the genocide run is justified all come from different fan perspectives, but yeah, the third is absolutely ridiculous, though the theory goes that the monsters SOME HOW destroyed humanity (Maybe Dr. Alphys made anti-human weapons) but even the people who believe that theory have to enter some hard core fan fiction territory to explain why it's possible.
Another theory for the monsters roaming about with out any humans in the pacifist ending is that humanity is literally done and the city was abandoned, so now the monsters are inhabiting it... though this one has nothing to do with justifying Genocide, so I won't go much into detail.
What this video also failed to point out (that I forgot to point out in my first rant) is also that in Genocide run, you're deliberately looking for monsters to kill and not just fighting what ever comes your way and killing out of self defense. There's a difference between killing your attacker and/or deliberately hunting down others with the intent to murder them.
I guess that can be justified for 2 reasons:
That the protagonist is aware of how killing monsters makes them stronger, so they're killing as many as possible to stand a better chance and not die/be killed themselves since they'll need that strength to escape.
And that they're seeking/killing monsters intentionally to make sure there aren't none left for the sake of safety, since it's better to take your enemies down first so they don't come around and attack you later (Like they're killing out of fear/paranoia opposed to power or homicidal tenancies)
Though both those arguments fall apart when, again, the genocide route is done AFTER neutral/pacifist, so they're aware that such acts are not needed. (and can only be applied if the person doing this is playing for the first time with out context/explanation and decides to do genocide run for their first play through)
I still find it kinda unbelievable that the monsters would even manage to gather enough materials to make _that many weapons._ Imagine how powerful the weapons would have to be and how much material they'd have to find somehow. Let's say that when the monsters first emerge, humans hate them and try to segregate them. If that were the case, it'd be even harder for the monsters to find necessary materials since they wouldn't have free roam of the land.
Also, humans have things like nukes, and since there are probably only a thousand monsters _at maximum,_ if the humans pushed the monsters away from themselves, it'd be extremely easy to just nuke them all the moment they found out the monsters were trying to build a weapon. And let's say the humans _didn't_ hate the monsters... Then what would the purpose of destroying them be? We know for a fact that the monsters don't want to wage war on humanity the moment they step out onto the surface. After all, Frisk has shown them that not all humans are bad, and plus Asgore asks you to be their ambassador to humans, and Papyrus wants to be the mascot; clearly their intentions are peaceful. So this whole idea is kind of unlikely imo.
As for genocide being self-defense... even if you went in to the game blind and accidentally chose genocide, that still isn't right. Actively seeking out and slaughtering all the monsters you can possibly find is murderous. It isn't self-defense. That would be like saying that a soldier in war, after a long battle, goes on to kill an entire innocent 'enemy' village, including its women and children, just because he doesn't want to take the risk of anyone retaliating. Seriously, it's inexcusable.
I know it's probably silly of me to compare a game to something as awful as that, but it was the best example I could come up with...
You WENT AND KILLED AND SEARCHED FOR EVERY MONSTER HOW IS THAT JUSTIFIABLE?
But from the characters point of view not ours its legimate self defense. Imagine walking in a park and someone points an knife at you.
@@Dylanfrias24 yes, but in genocide, you don't just kill every monster you encounter, you walk around and find them and kill them, yes it would be justifiable if you kill the monster you randomly encounter, but waiting and walking, LOOKING for them to kill them...
@The Good Demon :)
@The Good Demon yeah I haven't played the run, but I watched it
I was soooo sad
And yes I am to weak to do it my self XD. I just love the characters too much
@The Good Demon yea true your own experience is the best experience but I can't even bring myself to reset after I did the pacifist lol
And yea, I'm glad I already saw the whole thing!
You know the BEST route? Obviously the "Don't be a idiot climbing the Mountain where nobody returns from" Route. That's the best
But you won't be able to see papyrus
But you won't get beat up with bones almost to death
but sans
@@domainexpansion-boosiefade You wouldn't be able to be threatened with violence at a diner.
We do not know why Frisk climbed the mointain
To be fair, everyone after Snowdin obviously knows you killed a majority of the monsters there since there was an evacuation, so the braver ones would most likely stay behind to try and kill you. There is also the possibility of previous humans killing a monster, making them feel uneasy around humans and therefore attacking you. I read everything I just like making counter-arguments.
Good point
The Papyrus argument was pretty weak.Papyrus was trying to capture you its his job thats like saying its justified to kill a police officer because he was doing his job.
Papyrus's character doesnt known any better. Hes a halfwitt indeed a weak argument
Niels Beeris Yeah agreed. Truly though a lot of his arguments were pretty weak in this. Its kinda like saying a person has a flaw so you have to kill them :/
I feel like he keeps holding on to the idea that every monster is an actual monster and that its self defence killing them. Even though if toriel wanted you dead she wouldve attacked you on sight just like flowey. No reason killing her. Just like the rest because all of them have their reasons. Toriel wants to save you papyrus wants to become a royal guard undyne wants to protect the undergrounds and so on and so on.
Niels Beeris Undynes job is to bring Frisk in as well so technically she is just doing what she is ordered to do. This video just has a bunch of flaws.
Sorcerer Hex
true. and to undyne as well. undyne was raised to the laws of humans are terrible and can easily take our lives. and it's correct. she is a soldier. she is only following orders.
There is one side which is: They’ve already killed 6 other humans, and they attacked you first
And the other side: They’re scared and want to leave, and if their HP is low enough you can spare them, and if you don’t it’s kinda....
Even on the genocide argument, I personally just can’t kill any monsters when I play T~T
Yeah, yeah, I know it’s a video game, sue me.
yeah thats the thing i can imagine myself beating some monsters up accidentally killing some in the process yeah but not fucking killing a monster that has already given up and certainly not fucking SEARCHING THEM TO KILL THEM ALL.
Why the genocide run is not justifiable:
1. One must actively seek out monsters to kill,
2. One must kill a pacifist, that being Papyrus who spares you,
3. One must try to kill a child, that is to say monster kid,
4. One must have the underground destroyed, thereby putting the entire world at risk,
As for killing in general:
1. Monsters can be spared at low health, which makes killing them unnecessary,
2. Monsters can be spared if the character is of a high LV, making fights unnecessary,
3. Despite the fact that the monsters instigate a battle, the character always goes first,
4. While monsters do attack you, not all of them do so intentionally (Woshua and Blooky for example)
5. Certain monsters (whimsun, moldsmal) can be spared immediately, making fights unnecessary,
6. Toriel and Papyrus do not try to kill you, even though the former can do so by accident,
7. All monster encounters can be fled from, making fights unnecessary,
8. As a human, the character is immensely powerful compared to the monsters, the vast majority hardly pose a threat,
9. Rationally speaking, fighting the monsters isn't beneficial, one is better off sparing or running away,
10. Many monsters educate the character about sparing and mercy, so ignorance can not be used for justification,
1. The monsters declared war on humans, WAR! Why would the player think to spare or leave behind an enemy who is willing to kill them? I can't imagine people "sparing" enemies mid world war 2.
2. Papyrus only spares you during a genocide run. He kills you during any other run. If you couldn't respawn, you'd be dead. Surrendering was a survival instinct papyrus had after realizing he couldn't beat you. If you argue that he doesn't kill you and only captures you, your soul literally breaks. If Toby fox really wanted to show you getting captures and not killed, he would have programmed the game to make you lose but let you live on one health.
3. Monster kid is one of your stronger arguments, so I'll acknowledge it. However I will admit that ignorance is what gets monster kid killed. He knows what you're doing and chooses to fight you rather than run for his life. "...you'll have to get through me first" is what he said. It's brave, but I wouldn't bank my life on someone else's compassion. The monsters have shown no reason to get compassion since all of them except sans tried to kill you at least once.
4. This can tie back to number one, they asked for war and knew what they were getting themselves into. Asgore and undyne show little care about wiping out humanity for the benefit of the monsters.
5. Even after sparing a monster turn one, they still attack you. Sure you can spare them, but none of them spare you. Plus they benefit if you die by getting another soul, so why not defend yourself? On top of that, sparing undyne in a neutral run makes her hunt you down, so sparing them presents risk to your life.
6. It doesn't matter how much weaker the enemy is, they can all kill you if given the opportunity, and like I mentioned before, sparing presents risk.
7. I mentioned this in number 5
8. Your general killing number 4 is again another good point you've brought up. But by this point Alphys should have warned the monsters to get out of your way. I get that not every monster is for the war against humanity, but intentional or not, death is death, and that's exactly what the player is trying to avoid. If someone is trying to kill me during a war, I don't care if it's intentional or not, they're next.
9. You often bringing up the argument that if you don't spare, your actions are unjustifiable. Refer to 5-6.
10. The game is designed to have you think you have to fight toriel, which leads to you accidentally killing her so you can replay the game differently. In the scenario of this argument, the player doesn't know that toriel is holding back her attacks. All they know is that toriel is attacking them with fire and they have the options to either run away and stay stuck underground forever, or fight your way out. And again, papyrus doesn't try to avoid hitting you unless his back's against a wall.
11. Sparing and fleeing are the same thing. My previous 2 points (5-6) still stand.
12. If you didn't save ever, you would most likely die to one of the monsters. (Unless you are Merg). Killing means experience, that means more strength, and that means better odds of survival. Saving is not allowed in this scenario because we are assuming that we are in frisk's shoes, and if we only have one life, why should we assume we can respawn?
13. Fighting is beneficial because it yields better stats. This is assuming we are new to undertale and don't know all 69 possible endings.
14. Yeah.. we learn about sparing, but the monsters are hypocrites who want to kill you for your soul and never spare you. In a more realistic setting, how many times are you gonna try to befriend a possessed dummy who constantly charges you with a knife or an evil flower who tries to kill you as soon as you're introduced to the underground?
15. In my opinion, the monsters are all guilty of wanting revenge. They're fine with taking 6 human souls, 6 human lives, the lives of children! Yet if you ever kill anyone during a run through, you become the enemy. Hell, even killing a single froggit makes undyne want to hunt you down. The creator would really hate it if someone gets a happy ending during a genocide route, so in the end, you die. To the monsters, it's kill or be killed, but for you, it's spare or get a bad ending. That's why I enjoyed this video, because it brought to light an alternative prospective to such a linear game with us ethics.
The humans *were the ones* who declared war on monsters *first* because they feared the monsters' ability to absorb a human soul wich causes the monsters to become more powerful. Therefore they trapped the monsters underground with a magic spell. (This information is dictated in the ancient plaques located in Waterfall)
This is *not a justifiable reason* . Just because someone *can do* something does not imply they will do something.
Asgore declared war on humanity *after* they killed his son Asriel (who *refused* to fight back) over a ignorant misunderstanding. They did not even give him a chance to explain himself.
The humans assumed he, *as an individual* , murdered the dead child he carried in his arms, most likely based of his specie. That's *not a moraly correct reason* .
BTW Papyrus *never* kills the player in *any* route. There is *never* a gameover therefore your heart/soul *never* breaks. He shows compassion in the genocide route and he pities you in the passifist route. He spares you in all routes (even though it takes him longer to give you mercy in the passifist route).
@@chezze8190
Can’t imagine people sparing enemy during world war?
Um buddy? Ever heard of the Christmas Truce? Live and let live? And the fact that killing an surrendered enemy in war is a war crime?
"Still perhaps we should look at as less why complete genocide is justified and instead more why killing every monster you come across is"
The complete genocide that he isn't looking at is the Genocide run; the other part is the Neutral Run. He ADMITS that:
A- He is justifying the NEUTRAL RUN.
B-He is ignoring the GENOCIDE RUN.
This video title, setup, and premise AREN'T EVEN WHAT THE VIDEO ACTUALLY IS.
Either way, the fact that the monsters say to spare others if they don't want to fight (this can mean you fought them to a point when they don't want to fight anymore, not just that you acted until they gave up) kind of makes the neutral unjustifiable. They know they can defend themselves until the other doesn't want to fight back and they don't have to kill the monsters.
Actually, that tactic doesn't work on Toriel. If you try that, you WILL kill her, so that one is kind of justifiable.
LightSoul 8 he actually covered the possibility of the human just wandering around and attacking of self defense
Thats clickbait ya weeny.
Nerd, *activates RR, Rage Retribution*
Prepare to have a time, worse than the bad time, cause that’s not bad enough....
IT’S WALUIGIIIIIIII TIME!!!!!
I don't think there is a justification to the Genocide run, but I will say this. Asgore can kill every single human being that comes down there, children more or less and Sans doesn't bat an eye. The moment you start killing people though, you are a monster? What? They're so proud of killing, especially humans down there, but when a human starts killing, they start acting like heroes for trying to stop you.
Hey, not like there was another option rather than NOT killing them, also, what is 6 people out of 7 billion, compared to an ENTIRE CIVILIZATION ?
Gostler
6 people out of 7 billion seems laughable to get mad over, yes, but you must realize, all 6 who died came down in the underground. Most of them are more than likely merciful, as Undyne said they all confronted Asgore and yet every other main monster in the game is still alive. On the flip side, Frisk kills one random Froggit, has Sans yell at them for only doing this to get "results" and can't get past the barrier.
No, they didn't all die to Asgore, also, they kinda NEEDED to kill the kids.
Gostler Undyne said in her Neutral/Pacifist fight "no human has ever got past Asgore, killing you is an act of mercy". Now, Toriel would not be able to kill any humans as she stated all of the others "come and go" and die outside of the Ruins. It is implied Papyrus has never seen a human before you and Sans would be too lazy to kill any human that isn't a genocidal maniac, which none of them were. This only means (out of boss characters) Mettaton could have killed them. But Mettaton did not exist during most, or all of the human's existence, Alphys might not even have been the Royal Scientist for some, and if Mettaton did kill one, he would be on the surface. They all died to Asgore.
They did need to kill them to pass the barrier, but a few things.
1. Asgore went psychotic and swore to kill every human instead of just one and passing the barrier to get souls.
2. Even though the only way you truly pass the barrier is through Pacifist ingame, from Frisk's perspective, you will need to kill at least one boss monster to pass. They both needed to kill to achieve their goals, but Frisk is the only one getting shit for it.
I am not trying to say Asgore is a bad guy or bad character, but rather saying him and Frisk are nearly the same.
Not in the neutral route, i mean, Asgore is the only one you need to kill to get through the barrier since its the only soul you need to absorb, also, i didn't know those were the only monsters that existed =P.
This really only justifies a kill heavy neutral route. In none of the zones, is EVERY monster trying to attack you. In a genocide route, you keep going around the map actually hunting for the poor monsters. There wasn't any justification for quite a few of these characters. For example, Papyrus. Papyrus was believing in you before death, and still forgave you and kept believing in you even after you decapitate him. Papyrus was trying to spare you. Papyrus even lowered his DEF and ATK by 17 points!
we start the journey hearing very first words from Flowey being a lie and a ploy to get us hurt. What basis do we have to believe that Papyrus is not simply a liar or someone who stalls for time themselves?
@@ezergilechimekazikura6855you actually can spare papyrus in genocide
Counter argument: Sans asks you to be kind and reset to bring his brother back. If you were an innocent child that is what you would do
Another counter argument, hunting down monsters for no fucking reason makes you a murderer, not "self-defense" so this is stupid from the start
@@YooranKujara based
@@YooranKujara
Thank you.
Also even this is according to Frisk’s perspective it’s still unjustified.
Because this goes against the lore of Undertale. As all true fans would know,
after Frisk completed the Pacifist ending they get bored and was curious of what
would happen if they committed Genocide, they thought they were above consequences.
They thought they’d be able to reset as usual. So none of Frisk’s actions are out of self defence but
pure curiosity.
Also this video also goes against the Genocide route purpose.
The G route was supposed to make the player feel guilty and miserable.
Precious thing often becomes precious when you loose them.
Now this video is telling us we did nothing wrong, that the monsters started it all.
No I refuse to believe that, this video is a complete Sh#t show and should definitely be banned.
@@BruhTNT4258 can you stop with shitty headcanon
Okay, a couple things.
A) Papyrus doesn't attack you in your battle against him if you've chosen the genocide path.
B) Monster kid
C) The justification is the fact that monsters as a race are inherently threatening to the safety of the universe. All it takes is literally 7 dudes to die near a monster to create the next GOD OF HYPERDEATH. Monsters are not as innocent as they make themselves out to be.
That logic could equally be used to justify exterminating humanity instead.
The best way to justify it is:
I paid for the game so im the god of this universe
that's incredibly self-centered my dude
So the “Flowey was right,” angle.
I was laughing for 3 minutes in this comment. Idk why 😂😂
No but hey I love genocide so
@@rubyboi5819 I paid the for the entire game I'm going to play the entire game.
Pacifist: Fight
Neutral: Fight
Genocide: Lets have tea
Ik why he says that but idk if y’all are generally trying to tell me or just saying that-
it's cause you made him bloody poop himself lad
Maybe Because he saw you as himself in genocide, he wanted to destroy all humanity but he saw how painful it would be for them if he do it BEACUSE of frisk in genocide
Because this is what Asgore sees you as:
Pacifist: Human
Neutral: Human
Genocide: Monster
“Yeah, sure! I’m just going to be nice to you and let you go when you are actively trying to kill me. Or on second thought, no I’m not!”
The most relatable quote ever.
Monster that doesn’t try to kill you include.
The Great Papyrus.
Monster kid.
Shyren.
Flowey.
Monsters who did not attack you but you killed:
Asgore.
Mettaton.
Woow, you done gas lighting? 3 characters doesn’t redeem the whole. And even then that’s why I specified in another Comment that Neutral Runs are justifiable, not full on Genocide Runs. God you are such a damn simp for monsters!
@@MotorcycleCheetah
You know what? After I thought about it. I agree there are reasons Genocide is justified.
But the message from Undertale is that your not above consequences, your actions are
like criminal records, and it last for ever. This is what makes Undertale so great and unique.
Once you believe you did nothing wrong, it’s just not what Undertale stands for.
It’s ok to AGREE Genocide is justified, but it’s not ok to BELIEVE that.
@@MotorcycleCheetah
There I’ve had my say.
Again, I don’t agree Genocide is justified. I think killing in Self Defense is justified which is why I praise the neutral routes. Going out of your way to kill, makes you a bad guy. But there is no shame in killing someone who is trying to kill you. That is why I always spare Toriel and Papyrus in Neutral runs. Toriel, as much as I hate her, does not ever intend to kill you, and thusly I always spare. And Papyrus is a paragon of virtue in my eye, one of the few genuinely heroic monsters that I can respect. My issue that most monsters are trying to murder a Small Child and then they whine at me when I fight back. The monster race is a bunch of hypocrites, because they don’t know I can rewind time, they think I’m a defenseless child so they think “Ooh, Easy Kill!”, their whole society is based so much around souls that I’m damn sure they were a bunch of soul stealing demons in the past, and that’s why they were sealed away. How else would they know how Soul Absorption works before Asriel? If I’m not above consequences, why should they be above Reprimand and Criticism?
In my opinion, the game’s message of pacifism is made far stronger by the ability to rationalize doing the opposite.
That's very true! I much prefer the pacifist route, but I think the genocide path gives the game a certain uncanny edge that you simply don't see in most games.
Underlab ...This justifies killing all the encounters you stumble upon in the neutral route, but not the genocide route. You know why? In neutral route, you are killing out of self-defense, sure, but in the genocide route...you're hunting down encounters, chasing down the monsters until one of them is unlucky enough to slow down enough for you to catch up and kill it, or brave enough to sacrifice its own life to try to give the other ones enough time to escape you while you're slaughtering it.
Maybe its out of necessity? Think about it like this: If you leave this seemingly violent murder-hungry race alive, than one of them could, kill you take your soul, and then do who knows what to humanity. You basically choose the line of thinking of Undine, that is your fighting for humanity.
@@meowdynyall9284 Well NOBODY CARES IM SICK OF HEARING THIS
Thing is you did not mention the fact that you have to keep running around to kill every single monster in the area , which is not really justified because your avidly trying to find monsters to kill. There for it’s not justified
See?! This man is a fraud!
Sarah Mendez he’s talking about killing the MAIN CHARACTERS.
@@uhh4335 not just the main charaters
Look at it from kids point of view.
People assume that they're attacking you, which is wrong. You're searching for them, you'll walk around for hours just to find them. They're not attacking you, you're attacking them.
This sounds more like a au
Than a genocide run from the pov of the human
You can also think about it another way
All Neutral Runs: Monsters are trapped in the Underground forever and hate Humans even more (Frisk may have killed some Monsters + the Souls are gone + King Asgore is dead)
All Pacifist Runs: Humans won't accept Monsters and another war starts
Genocide Run: You're sparing the Monsters from a life of suffering by killing them
Also, Monsters are a threat to Humanity, since it's confirmed that many Monsters want Humanity dead, and all it takes is 7 Human Souls to create a God capable of eradicating Humanity
I hope you enjoy this uh... purely hypothetical take on Undertale's monsters! As I state repeatedly throughout the video, I'm not in any way a fan of the genocide path, but I can see how you'd justify killing (almost) each individual character.
Make sure to watch to the end for the glorious 'Conqueror of Monsters' image! ( 1920x1080 wallpaper here for all you crazies: imgur.com/a/UU2ca )
If you really enjoy the video, please leave a like on the Reddit post (the following link) in order to encourage others to watch it! www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/59ik8u/why_undertales_genocide_path_is_justifiable/
I love your videos I'm a huge fan of you and Undertale. You have influenced me and I am now starting to do Undertale theorys so thank you so much
My pleasure! Good luck!
Thanks
Underlab NOOOOO THEY DIED!!
Could you please explain to people that the delta rune is Asriel, as he's seen the surface, then he made the underground go empty because he became Omega Flowey and killed everyone, then he became the god of hyper-death and stole everyone's souls. He then freed everyone by breaking the barrier and letting their souls return - his second form even is a delta rune, but nobody seems to notice and acknowledge the delta rune represents him. Maybe you should make a video on it? I love your videos by the way!
The genocide path gives you alot of chances to pick a better path
Like the mad dummy he becomes the happy dummy and you can spare him just like that no fighting needed
That could be justified by the fact that you could see that as an attempt to lower your guard.
@@theeclipsemaster a few rooms after that you try to murder a child.
good luck justifying that.
@@theeclipsemaster and papyrus in his genocide battle wants to teach you how to be kind, and you could probably guess that he wouldn't kill you from his past encounters... care to explain that?
@@asaghcfgdfuyvhrghflowey9997 yes but the player character may not know this. Im just arguing a possibility, not a likelyhood
@@theeclipsemaster so then again there would be a POSSIBILITY that my scenario is also correct
Ever notice how some characters are nicer to you when you kill everyone?
EX. Flowey, Papyrus, Chara.
...
Is Papyrus secretly a sadist?
papyrus isnt really nicer he is just the same old guy but terrified
@@malpuppet1123 Watch your mouth. Papyrus is the nicest, greatest and best character in the game.
@@anordinaryuser5818 Well luckily I never said he was bad
why tf would you put chara in there?
....DID YOU EVEN SEE HOW CHARA KILLED YOU AT THE END OF THE GENOCIDE RUN?
on top of someone having already pointed out that this is more of a justification for the neutral run as for genocide you have to actively seek out monsters and kill every single one of them where most of them would have never attacked you normally.
It also doesnt make sense why you would choose to kill the monster to defend yourself, as toriel has already given you a way of protecting yourself without having to kill a single soul, you can even defend yourself and fight back until you can spare them, but its never a neccesity to kill, so it doesnt seem very justifiable to choose murder over sparing for no good reason whatsoever
7:46
papyrus didn't attend to kill the human. he is the only enemy in the game that wouldn't kill you at all.
if i once had someone who don't want to hurt me, just doing his job + he can just kill me and get the job done. i will try in evrey way i can to get past him without killing him. it's not justifide to kill papyrus
Justifiable =/= the right thing to do.
Also pointing out that you conveniently skipped Monster Kid, who you proactively attack by interrupting them mid-sentence.
(And a detail that's easy to miss, but if I recall correctly one of the books in Snowdin's library states that a monster's attack is just how it communicates and expresses its emotions. They're proactively engaging with you...to communicate with you. They don't realize they're actually inflicting damage. The player, on the other hand.... One of the whole themes of the game is understanding not to judge others by appearances.)
This is hella late, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned that it wasn't a complete genocide and more of a 'kill anything that attacked you, route'. Even if it was a true genocide, in the standpoint of a child or any human at all, if a flower can betray you and nearly kill you, what makes you think a monster kid is harmless? If you were stuck in a pit of monsters that constantly attacked you, survival would be the first thing you care about, morals or not.
@@examplenote1413 The youtuber is trying to justify a no mercy run but also, if it was still a genocide, I doubt Frisk would have a reason to trust a spear holding fish lady that's trying to kill him. Who knows if it's a plot? It's a mysterious place, a place you know nothing about. You would be mystified and scared, you would feel danger from the slightest things in the unknown underground. Who's to say that Frisk doesn't think the monsters may one day rise and kill his parents and all of humanity? In the eyes of a human, it may be justices. We, humans, stereotype things quite often. The second that Frisk puts all monsters into the categories of danger, he may commit genocide to defend the species he's a part of. He's in the vast unknown where there are creatures with magic abilities, monsters can easily kill the average human.
Kent Bouchard This is what hes talking about in the first place
The pacifist route is killing jerry (Chara: Did i do good?
I know exactly wut ur talking about
No, this isn't justified. Primarily, your argument is that you don't know better and are just retaliating. This is just not true. You cannot complete a genocide run if you never actively searched monsters to kill them. Random encounters are so rare once you get to a certain level that you cannot even consider them as attacking you. Plus, you know you have another possibility. The first "fight" you get into, with the dummy, shows you that you can do something else than hitting. You're told to speak to it. You have the act button -why would it be there considering enemies hardly take more than two hits to beat?- and the puzzles you meet along the way. Toby Fox designed the game not to be funny when taking that route, and he always gives you the opportunity to turn back. I can understand that you kill Toriel. You're played on, you have to go back to save her, understand the mechanics. But by Papyrus, you cannot be forgiven for killing anyone. He does not attack you and never wanted to kill you. Yes, if you think it through, that's what being captured would mean, but the game just isn't thought this way. However long you wait, Undyne will never get you in your cell. Never. Oh, and how about monster kid? Are you justified for killing him? There's no retaliation here. As I said, the game is less and less funny taking that route, and you can go back. Sans is your final warning -take for instance what happens when he spares you: he says "don't come back". Also, if you beat him then save, the savepoint tells you, Toby tells you : "If you're here, it's that somehow I did something wrong". Because you are not supposed to take that route. Everything dissuaded you to do so, and you always had the opportunity to go back and play it right. Final argument: if you could be excused for a genocide, you wouldn't be so awfully punished after a pacifist route if you have done a genocide. In pacifist, everyone is happy! You set all things nicely, surely whatever you could have done would be forgiven? No. You aren't meant to be forgiven, this is going way too far.Retaliation is understandable. That is why a NEUTRAL path is justifiable. However, a genocide route is way different. Remember the selling argument for that game: a game where you don't have to kill everybody. This game is a pacifist statement. The other routes are here to make you understand by trial and error how you were always supposed to act. Toby Fox puts you in a context of violence because you know better, you know what the game is about, and if you didn't, you're told. That's why we start with Toriel. The very intro, when she shoos Flowey away, proves you that he was wrong. She saves your life to show you how to play. She inspires you to pacifism, and I think that's what the final goal is: to inspire the monsters to love and peace. This is an incredible statement considering what happens in our world. You say we are justified to kill because monsters attack first, but let me ask you this: who started the war between humans and monsters? We don't know. There is no clue. In our world either, it runs from far too long, and it's far too complex. Are we justified to keep on fighting and killing because someone attacked first? Toby says no. Everyone is responsible for perpetuating the fight.
A beautiful and compelling argument.
liked
Lucas Martinez thanks !
*Slow Clap*
Thomas Lecomte frisk is trying to prevent war with humans
I almost cried when torel said “I thought I was protecting you, but really I was protecting THEM!” 😰😰😰
"You said I must prove to be worthy but you here saying that I AM THE MURDER?! They attacc me first so I kill their kind"
@@shookengie370
You misunderstood, none of your actions in the G route is self defence. Which makes this video stupid from the start.
Undertale do be hitting the feels tho
okay then explain why the fact that she abandoned a bunch of children to be murdered because she wanted to protect her own fragile ego of accepting asgor.
Not to mention she did it to you in the game and fight you because she doesn’t get her way especially Sans Who never kept his promise in the first place because he did nothing but watch at the hands of everyone who kills you because he can remember when you reset.
While it might be justified to attack the random monsters actually killing them isn’t. This is because when monsters get on low HP you can spare them. if you have a choice between sparing a monster and killing it and choose to kill it then you’re acting unnecessarily violently
Are ya gonna justify killing Papyrus.
*ＤＩＲＴＹＢＲＯＴＨＥＲＫＩＬＬＥＲ*
It’s The Great Papyrus.
Also thank you for saying that.
@@BruhTNT4258 fan of Monsters lmao
Sans: *watches the king kill 6 humans* meh
You: *kills a single froggit on accident in the start of the game cause you were scared*
Sans: >:000000000
He doesn’t actually get that upset at low amounts of LOVE. He just points out the demonstrable fact that people are dead because of you, whatever your reason.
@@benjaminfricke4791 in some neutral endings the dialogue changes depending on whether you killed papyrus or not.
If Papyrus is alive: "see ya later."
If Papyrus is dead: "go to hell."
actually when you encounter an enemy YOU get the first turn so YOU attack first and the monster attacks of self defence
Banana God 1. You roasted him 2. I think he meant they started the fight because you didn't make the encounter
I think that frisk would be cautious about the monster lungeing at him
Actually, until you encounter Papyrus all of the monsters can atttack you first if you just don't use SPARE or ACT properly
Yeah but he still attacks you even if you tell a joke...
Also, at the genocide route it keeps on saying something like "14 remaining" and instead of continuing like a normal person, you just wait for more monsters to come to kill.
To be honest, getting the genocide route means you actively went out of your way to kill every monster you found, even if they weren't attacking you. Though I see were you are getting at. Like you, I think if the human was just killing the monsters that came their way and attacked them, it would be justifiable. You are a lost child that stumbled into the underground and all of a sudden these monsters are attacking you. It's not as if you attacked first, why do they want to kill you so much? Most people's instincts are to defend themselves in that situation, it probably would have never crossed anyone's mind to try and spare them, much like when people do the neutral route on the first try. It's not fair to accuse them of being an evil murderer when the monsters were pretty much trying to kill you, a young child who had accidentally stumbled into the underground.
To be honest you can just run away lol
Lol Rekt V2 Hahahaha
Lisa Clarasen xD
In the case of a kid (not nowing thier age) Your just walking around randomly looking at all type of stuff as well (and could walking around trying to figer out what to do now to get home) and then a monster attacks you. In the end, you could have just killed them all by ansendent not even realizing it and in turn did a genocide not nowing it. Sence we don't know why they went up there to begin with (atleast I don't), they now know what they try to do and now gest wants to go back home.
Blanc Space for this game, the farthest Frisk might go is a Neutral No Mercy run
Did you know i spared toriel on accident?
I was messing around trying to spare her then i remembered what froggit said
Sometimes you just have to keep pressing the spare button
Next week we'll be covering why Hitler's genocide path was... wait... no...
Contrary the Contrarian Not really... The two events were both his accomplishments, but that doesn't mean one caused the other entirely.
And europeans genoci... wait ... colonisation path too ... :) as much as the american freedom and democracy path , and the russian liberation path and many others xD
hahaha OMFG that make me laugh so hard XD XD XD
Ezhang2 luv me senpai X3
Lol. You mean Adil Fidler
Hey guys look!
I found Frisk!
😑
lel
😑 💤 💤 💤💤💤💤
LOL
lol that isn't frisk that's chisk
*screaming* Me: CHARA X FRISK!!!!!
NO! THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING GOAT MAMA!
She literally WANTS you to fight her to prove you can survive and smiles when she dies (genuinely in Neutral because you showed her you can survive the underground [and insanely in Genocide because.....reasons])
That seems to be decent justification
Well Toriel's smile in Genocide is less insane and more....broken when you think about it. The whole reason Toriel forces you to fight her is because she wants to know if you have the power to survive in the Underground. If you kill her in a Neutral run, you basically prove that to her. On a Genocide run, you do the same thing but with a sinister context since she realizes that the Underground wasn't a threat to you at all. Instead, YOU are the threat to the Underground and Toriel was protecting them from you the entire time. The broken smile is probably a mix of that realization and her misplaced belief in you being good.
A very good point
I think when Toriel smiles in neutral it's because she knows you will be able to survive, in genocide it's that broken kind of smile but either way she just wanted to protect you, it's like killing your mom just because you can. She did want you to fight her but she was probably only going to fight like Papyrus without anyone dieing.
And toriel does NOT even actually kill you, if your HP is at a number that will make it to where her attack would kill you, all her attacks miss
So, if you run into a bunch of cats and each of them bite you, do you proceed to kill every cat on earth?
But thoese are cats, not monsters. Also, if the cat is rabbit, I'm flattening its head with the soul of my shoe.