Mormons are NOT Christians, here's why...the LDS don't follow Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith and HIS lies. #1 - The Mormon Geesus can't save you by himself, but needs YOU to do many, many "works" and he'll "make up the rest" that you don't accomplish. Grace went out the window there. 2# - The LDS Geesus is also the "spirit brother of Lucifer". #1 - This line of bull is NOT in the Bible and you LDS follow Geesus, which is DIFFERENT than the Christ followers of the Bible. #2 - The Christian Jesus CREATED all things, seen and unseen, and so CREATED Lucifer and CANNOT be Lucifer's brother, but is his CREATOR. Yeah, since you don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible but have CREATED your own un-Biblical Geesus, we don't have the same Saviour or Jesus in common.
I find it really great that the person in-charge of the channel actually comments on the video. And that those comments are based upon the dialogue occurring amongst the viewers. Cool analogy by the way. God Bless your channel!
When that man is asked what God did to save him, and he says he died on the cross, that is rather proof he is not well versed in Mormonism. LDS followers believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three very separate and distinct beings or people.
Levi Barnes You mean by grace and more, right? This is taken from mormon.org The prophet Joseph Smith taught ‘Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace...’ (see @en/jst/102). The Book of Mormon teaches ‘For we labor diligently to write to persuade our children, and also our brethren to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’ (@en/2_ne/25/23#23). The Book of Mormon adds ‘all that we could do [was to] repent of all our sins’ (@en/alma/24/11#11). A Book of Mormon prophet named Lehi taught, ‘There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah’ (@en/2_ne/2/8#8).
***** Why didn't JS say, "you are justified BY faith and works"? If that's what he meant, wouldn't that have been clearer? I, a Mormon, believe good works is not the price of salvation. Mighty faith and good works *is* salvation. Jesus doesn't want to change your location. He wants to change your nature. Therefore, as JS said, you are justified OF faith and works through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus has made (and/or is making) your weak faith and evil works into strong (justified) faith and Godly works. This is the gift Jesus has given you. So what's our part? As pointed out above, "all that we could do" is to repent--that is, to ask Jesus in prayer to make us as He is. The requirement for being saved is wanting to be saved. That's it. But it's not as easy as it sounds. Change is hard and Christ's life, the life we're meant to emulate, ended in torment and ignominy. His will was completely subject to that of the Father. If that doesn't at least make you a little worried, you're not paying attention. But, as soon as, and to whatever degree, you want to be made more righteous, Jesus will grant it to you "without money and without price." Does that differ from what you believe? I appreciated your sincerely loving approach. Thanks and God bless you. BTW, that quote from Lehi is part of a remarkably clear sermon on grace and salvation in 2 Nephi, chapter 2 including the unequivocal statement "Salvation is free" (2 Nephi 2:4). Paul + Lehi = wisdom. Check it out.
Levi Barnes I, a Mormon, believe good works is not the price of salvation: ...........Good works are meritorious for right standing before God after all one can do.Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (1 Ne. 3:7; 2 Ne. 25:23; Alma 5:27-8; 11:37; 34:33-5; Moroni 10:32; D&C 1:24-33; 25:15-6; 42:18-29; 58:34-43; 82:5-7; and 3rd Article of Faith).
+Levi Barnes JS did say that you are justified by faith and works, "by faith after all we can do." Further, the many gods thing and even man becoming god, these are things that are beyond heresy
+Levi Barnes by your own words, "good works are the price of salvation." No, good works are merely a result and none of us can ever be truly perfect, although we are to strive for it, but we are treated as perfect because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Jesus didn't simply die "to make our works efficacious" as many believe, but to make us holy in the eyes of a Holy God. To make a way that He might save sinners without bringing their sin into heaven. Jesus died for you Levi, and He rose again to justify you. By accepting this truth and putting your trust in Him you can have everlasting life, but if you want to justify yourself and work for your salvation, or pay a "price" than you will perish. I implore you, please accept His saving grace.
I think a person who is initially very bad and sinful but asks for forgiveness is better than a person who is slightly bad but denies God and denies being forgiven by Christ.
Just by reading the title of the video and not actually watching it, I would say - NO, mormons are NOT Christian. The most basic reason is that the Jesus "they" believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. The Jesus that muslims believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. The Jesus the jehovah witness' believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. ALL of the aforementioned groups have their own bastardized version of the actual Holy Bible. Without knowing it, they ALL believe in the Satanic gospel. I've tried to witness to mormons and they are so ingrained within their false beliefs that they will not listen to simple reasoning. :O( We ALL as Christians need to pray for them that their eyes will be finally opened to the Lord and for them to develop a *true* saving faith relationship with The Jesus Christ Of The Holy Bible. Not Yet? ---> Praise The Lord and Godspeed to you all!! It is finished...
Hey Tony, I realize this comment is three years old, but as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of lds, I have to ask something. How can you say that Mormons don't believe in the Jesus of the bible, when we BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE !? I know Muslims do not believe in the new testament bible, so you could certainly say that of them. We may believe in the Jesus of the book of Mormon, but we believe that is the same Jesus of the bible.
@@peace.love.n.blessings It's because we view Jesus as a "brother", a separate entity than God the father. We also believe we can become God and that God, the father, was once a man. To them that's heresy. They'll argue Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 45: 5 and say we don't believe in the Bible. This argument goes a lot deeper than you think. I say we should focus on what we have in common, which is a lot more than what people realize. It amazes me how many Christians bundle up on anti-mormon videos and few actually talk to real, active members.
Opps, sorry. For the late reply, I just saw your response! Yep, I really like it there. A lot of the Christians there amaze me, they really shine their light and continuously place themselves amongst the unsaved. I had a fantastic, growing, eye-opening experience and I am SO glad that the Lord sent me there! In fact, He is sending me back next year, and I am SOOO excited about it =D. Which city did you study in?
This verse is only stating that faith without works is non-existent. Works are a result of faith, but you cannot earn faith (salvation) by your works. 2 Timothy 1:9 says, "[He] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
I love how these guys practice priestcraft (working for the church for money) while not a single position in the Mormon church is a paid position. It is all volunteer. How much money have these guys made off using Jesus. Mark Spits said in this video how he used to work a job Before becoming a minister. Meaning he doesn't work and just does church work for money. That is priestcraft and an offense to god. Also they said that God requires no payment? Obeying the commandments is "payment".
It's God that does the saving. We can't do anything for it, and we don't have to go on feeling guilty because "there is therefore now no condemnation." Tell me....what do you do to pay for your sin? Notice I didn't say sins.
that email that you received was extremely encouraging! How powerful! I love such testimonies, God is so good. I have also been using the good person test to witness to people, especially at the gym, there have been a few encouraging events, and a few not so encouraging ones, but it is always beautiful to see the gospel going out to a dying world.
How is it just a “Mormon mantra” when it’s the words of Christ? “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
One reason many cannot accept the gifts of God is because those who do not openly repent in the presence of many witnesses have not truthfully accepted themselves and naturally are unable to truly accept anything or anyone beyond their level of accepting of themselves---from the view point of who they think they are-unless of course that thing they are accepting is or has something they need or want-we cannot play that game with God--if we face rejection and reveal our true selves then and only then does time stop-The Love of God heals us-WE experience rejoicing inside -I Am, and receive the gifts of God-true happiness,true Love,true peace,true understanding,true prosperity,true understanding and a sound mind to name a few.FF
Why do you say we don't believe in the trinity, of course we do(please research before judging). We believe in God(heavenly father), Jesus Christ(his son), and the Holy Ghost/Spirit. We don't believe 99% of the things you're talking about. You say we believe in many gods??? We believe in one god. We believe in the same Jesus Christ and God you believe in. We read the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Since we believe in the trinity and Jesus Christ we are Christian.
The official Mormon doctrine is that men can eventually become gods and then populate their own planets. If many Mormons have become gods, then that means that there are many, many gods. This means that Mormonism is polytheistic religion.
@@gigiis526 A while back Pre-mortal existence was complete heresy. Now, a lot of denominations are talking about it. Polygamy was complete heresy, but some denominations acknowledge that it was allowed by God in times of famine and war. I'm sure there's more than that.... You should restrain from being so bigoted towards "Mormons." Not all people are the same. I personally am a Mormon, but I practice and view it a lot differently. I believe in the foundations, but I think Mormonism has strayed away.
Bad people can be saved is my point. But people who deny Christ and God can't. I would argue that a person who is truly sorry is a better person than one who isn't regardless of their past.
I am not Mormon, I am Christian but as they say “be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect” I must agree with them but here’s the thing, it does not mean to be absolutely perfect as Jesus was but it is telling us that we must do as God does through Jesus but not only that do as he commands, do as he suggests however you want to put it but it’s saying that we should do righteousness, that we should do; that we should be like our father in heaven. A good tree produces good fruit, the same as a bad tree reproduces bad fruit but if you are born of God you will produce good fruit! Which means that the things you do are rooted in the foundation of Jesus!. So no I do not believe it the way they seem to believe it or they do believe it, I know that God is not saying we should be perfect, as in do nothing wrong, to be morally excellent right but at the same time Ray and them should explain what that verse truly means because it does actually say be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect but at the same time we can see what God means by “be perfect as God is perfect” in scripture, in the same chapter, God gives examples of what it is to do as God would do or more to the point does do! Matthew 5:48 King James Version 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.: 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
There is too much here to address as you attack other's beliefs on so many levels. But one thing that constantly trips me is when Christians believe they can do "nothing" to be saved. Well by golly- that means everyone is saved then! No hell, no consequences! Then swift comes the reply: "Well no, you have to BELIEVE in Christ to be saved." Well- that's what's called a CONDITION, friends. And where there is one condition there can be others... Not to EARN grace, but to APPLY grace. Doctrine & Covenants Section 88:33: "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift."
Christians believe in salvation by grace alone because it is what the Bible teaches. Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." Salvation, then, is not based on something that we do, but it is the free gift of God. Even the faith in this context is the gift of God, as is also asserted in Philippians 1:29. God says clearly in His word not only that one cannot be justified by works, (Rom 3:28) but when addressing people who affirmed the necessity of grace but sought to maintain only one work (circumcision), He says, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4) So I realize that you see this message as an attack on your church, but the intention is not to rob you of your faith, but to enable you to put your trust in the true God and true Christ who can save. Mormon scripture teaches that salvation results from grace AND works. (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32) It is also taught that Jesus was not always God, (D&C 93:12-14) when the word of God says that Jesus was eternally God. (John 1:1-18,29-30) Jesus himself taught that many false Christs would come after him, (Luke 21:8) and that many who claim to follow Jesus will be rejected by him in the last days. (Matt 7:21-23) This is our concern for our Mormon friends. We know you say that you follow Jesus, but our concern is that the Mormon church is teaching a false Jesus, and a false Gospel, and a false Jesus and false Gospel cannot save. (Gal 1:8-9)
SalvusGratia I understand Salvus. I've had the same discussion over a hundred times on my mission in Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri. And you know what? In many cases you are right. Mormons who misunderstand their doctrine are trying to save themselves in part, or in some cases, whole, based on scriptures they miss-understand, esp. Nephi. No wonder they get so stressed out. But Mormons who truly understand their theology know that "there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent." - Mosiah 3:17. On the flip-side, we also believe that people who don't do their best to live a Christian life are fooling themselves if they think God only wants some passive belief in Him to obtain salvation. Now I don't think that's what you believe, but many people do believe in "easy grace" because it tickles the ears. I have talked to many people that feel that once they declare a belief in Jesus, they are "locked" into salvation, and nothing they can do: murder, rape, incest -will compromise their salvation. In my mind, that means heaven would be chock full of people deserving of hell, which doesn't make sense if God is just. They like the idea of a license to sin. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? -Romans 6:15-16 Mormons are obedient for to God for that reason. We are not trying to save ourselves. The issue Mormons have with only a mere belief for salvation, is when that so-called belief is passive. Or in other words: " But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20 Also: "Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble; thou hast made thyself like unto them, not being justified." James 2:19. You get that part? You can believe, even know God exists, and still go to "hell," not being justified. The Bible doesn't teach that a man is saved by "grace alone" as you put it. I have never found one passage of scripture that states it. Can you find one verse with those two words next to each other? People need to be careful when taking scriptures out of context. You seem to have left this one out: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." -Philippians 2:12. Well, if I went by that scripture ALONE, then I would have a pretty hard life indeed, trying to save myself. So what does it mean, in context? It means we have a choice to keep going or turn around after we've been "saved." Hence the phrase "endure to the end." We always have a choice. We can fall from grace if we so chose: "But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;" D&C 20:32. However, I don't believe that any work on our own, that is, without God's grace, could merit salvation. When Mormons "work" they are not trying to earn their salvation (Christ did that), they are doing their best to become like the Savior because he embodies total happiness and peace. Why wouldn't we want to strive to be like the Savior? We also do righteous works to help people- it's selfless and God is happy when we help others because those are His children. Here is a section of a paper I wrote on this topic: “Aren’t we saved by grace alone? Don’t Latter-day Saints believe that their works help save them? Don’t Mormons ‘earn’ their way to heaven by keeping commandments?” I know of no scripture that says that grace and only grace alone will save us, even though many quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6 as meaning such. Yes, ultimately it is only through grace that we are saved. “…and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24) Here are some scriptures that talk about commandments: Matthew 19:17, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Ecclesiastes 12:13, 1 Nephi 3:7, Mosiah 2:22 & 41, D&C 61:13, 76:51-52. These next two quotes are from Elder Bruce R. McConkie and are found in What Think Ye of Salvation and Grace? (pgs. 47-48): “Suppose we have the scriptures, the gospel, the priesthood, the Church, the ordinances, the organization, even the keys of the kingdom- everything that now is down to the last jot and tittle- and yet there is no atonement of Christ. What then? Can we be saved? Will all our good works save us? Will we be rewarded for all our righteousness? Most assuredly we will not. We are not saved by works alone, no matter how good; we are saved because God sent His son to shed his blood in Gethsemane and on Calvary that all through him might ransomed be. We are saved by the blood of Christ.” “Does salvation come by grace, by grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does without any question, in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees. We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come? In His goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required…” Elder McConkie then lists all of the things that God did for us that we could not do for ourselves (our works having no inclusion so far). Then he clarifies where our works come into play: “This is the word: Man cannot be saved by grace alone; as the Lord lives, he must keep the commandments; he must work the works of righteousness…he must have faith…” (Emphasis added in McConkie’s quotes) The following two quotes from the Messages for Exaltation manual, 1967, (pgs. 137-38) which should clear up a lot: “We are tempted to think that when we serve God in keeping his commandments we earn our salvation. But the fact is that we have received from God everything we have. When we act or do any good thing, we are only taking his strength, the breath he has given us, the agency bestowed by him, to do his will.” (“Purpose of Commandments”- is the heading for this quote): “When the Lord gives us commandments, they are not given to us so that we can earn his favor or repay his efforts. He gives us commandments as a kind and loving Father to prepare us to be able to receive all that he has, knowing that if we were unprepared, the blessings would prove curses instead… Every commandment can be seen as they way to prepare to receive greater blessings. Wisdom on our part would suggest then that we, with King Benjamin, see ourselves as unprofitable servants as counted on the scales of Justice, even though we have the promise of all things through the mercy, goodness and grace of our God.” (Also refer to pg. 121 in same manual and Proverbs 6:23) “…why must we be commanded to serve one another? Oh, for that glorious day when these things all come naturally because of the purity of our hearts. In that day there will be no need for a commandment because we will have experienced for ourselves that we are truly happy only when we are engaged in unselfish service. Let us use the freedom which comes from self-reliance in giving and serving.” (President Marion G. Romney, The Gospel and the Productive Life student manual / religion 150, pg.105, italics added) “God does not contradict Himself. He did not create man and then, as an afterthought, impose upon him a set of arbitrary, irritating, restrictive rules. He made man free- and then gave him the Commandments to keep him free.” (Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, 31 May 1957, pgs.4-5) Elder M. Russell Ballard has said: “Unfortunately, there are some within the church who have become so preoccupied with performing good works that they forget that those works- as good as they may be- are hollow unless they are accompanied by a complete dependence on Christ.” (Ensign August 2005, found in article “My Maturing Views of Grace”) I have more quotes if you would like to see them... One more thing, Salvus. Whose decision was it for you to be saved? Did you make that decision, or did someone else make it for you? If you say God made that decision for you- then you negate the need for agency and believe in pre-destination. That is, God saves and curses whom He so chooses based on His whims. Hmmm. Not my kind of God. Point being: You DID do SOMETHING to become "saved." If you did "nothing," as so many Christians say is a requirement to be saved, then you would be no different than the unbelieving masses who also do nothing. Please don't kid yourself brother, you have AGNECY, FREE WILL. You can always choose whether you want God's grace and His plan, or Satan's hate and his plan. This choice is made daily, through our faith, our actions, or words. We have Christ's atonement to make up our incredible lack of perfection, but that doesn't eliminate our responsibility to become a better person- thus helping others become better, all thanks to God's love. Yes, it is God's grace that saves us. But we can fall from that Grace if we choose to do so... "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21
Robert Owen Well apparently I should have began my comment with "Howdy, partner!" You did you mission in Oklahoma, and I was born and raised in Tulsa! I appreciate you thorough response, and I want to be clear in mine: I do know that you believe that the atonement of Christ is necessary, and I'm not trying to say that you don't. My concern is that Mormon scripture and theology teaches that that atonement is not SUFFICIENT for salvation, as the Bible teaches. As an example, the third article of faith, at least as presented in the Pearl of Great Price, states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." So yes, Mormonism teaches that the atonement of Christ is necessary, but it has to be joined with "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" to actually be effective. As I've expressed, my concern is that the Bible teaches the exact opposite, that we are justified "by faith APART FROM works of the law." (Rom 3:28) I do indeed agree that we ought to produce good works, but those works flow out of our becoming a new creation, all of which is from God and not ourselves, (2 Cor 5:17-19) and is not unto our justification. (Rom 3:20) So I agree that "faith without works is dead", (James 2:20) but I also recognize the context of that passage, and that James has just said, "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) In spite of this clear teaching of Scripture, however, Joseph Smith taught that " to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", p 332) The issue between us, therefore, is not whether the atonement of Christ is necessary, or whether we ought to do good works. The issue is whether the atonement of Christ, apart from works, is sufficient to justify a person before God. The Bible says clearly that it is, (Rom 3:28; Eph 2:8-9) but Mormonism disagrees. Similarly, I know you say that the primary reason to do good works is to be like our Savior. And indeed, if I were to apply my own definitions to those terms, I would heartily agree. However, I don't think we would mean the same thing when we say those words. When I speak of being Christ-like in good works, I mean that a person reflects the attributes, the love, compassion, and righteousness of Jesus. But Mormon theology goes beyond this, and teaches that I can become a god in the same way that Jesus did. (D&C 93:12-19) This is a problem for me, because the Bible teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, (John 1:1-18, 29-30) and has created everything, including ourselves, angels, etc., (Col 1:16-17) and that there will never be gods other than God. (Isa 43:10) It is for these reasons that my concern remains that the Mormon church is teaching a false gospel, a false Jesus, and a false god, and for those reasons must be rejected out of obedience to God's word. (Gal 1:8-9; Deut 13:1-3) A final word, since you asked about who decided that I should be saved. As his servant, I can only confess what Jesus taught: that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, that all of those drawn by the Father will come to Jesus, and that Jesus is faithful and powerful to keep all of those drawn to him unto salvation. (John 6:37-40,65) My salvation is entirely the result of Christ's work and faithfulness, not mine.
Cool- I served in Broken Arrow next to Rhema Bible Church. You can imagine we got a lot of heat from the locals. They even taught a class on how to get rid of Mormons. Curious thing. ;) Yeah- this is a tough topic because of the terminology and intent of the terminology. You mentioned the articles of faith, and I can see the potential confusion and frustration. However, being obedient to anything, any commandment is not done apart from God...how can it be? They are God's commandments- so the second we do anything good or obedient, it is He working through us to bring about the fulfilling of that commandment. [see quote from last message I sent] I'm sure you'll agree, that whenever you are truly helping someone, for no other reason than God's love- you don't feel like you were alone in the matter, or that you were alone right up until God stepped in and finished the rest. Like some sort of tag team. This is what many people think Mormons believe, and I admit, that's understandable based on scriptures taken out of context. But it couldn't be more wrong. There are not 2 categories when it comes to good works: Category A) Our righteous works. Category B) God's grace. They are inseperable. I know you believe that too. So any time we do any good thing it is God, or his Holy Spirit working in us to accomplish good things. But on this next point we may always have to disagree: The individual, at some point, has to want to do righteous things based on THEIR DECISION, THEIR AGENCY. Yes, God influences His children to make good decisions, just as surely as Satan influences us to make poor decisions and sin. But it is WE who have to eventually choose who we will follow. You stated: "My salvation is entirely the result of Christ's work and faithfulness, not mine." I would say that's almost entirely true, but you had to choose to be saved. If someone asked you how you were saved, do you reply: "I had no choice, God made me do it." That's like a sinner saying "I'm not really at fault here, Satan made me do it." You are not a robot for God, where he takes over completely and puts you on auto-pilot. Unlike Satan, He respects your agency. Every day you are making decisions on whether to sin or not. As such, you, me and everyone besides Christ is imperfect. If it was God and God alone working through us for our salvation, then either A) We would perfect the second He took over, or B) He is failing every Christian since the beginning of time, because all are sinners- even Christians. Of course, the correct scenario is C) God is trying to help us every day and it is we who decide to accept His help- His Grace, or reject it. In effect, we become our own worst enemies when we decide to sin. Satan, of course, tries to pull us in the sinning direction, but it is still our choice. That's why when you ask some Mormons if they've been saved, they seem hesitant. Some Mormons, not all. As long as they are generally living their lives to the best of their ability (through God's grace, His power), then of course they will be saved. They certainly aren't the servants of Satan and hell. Now, as you draw closer to God it becomes easier to not sin and feel Him directing you, granted...but until you die, until the Final Judgment, you still can fall from grace. Not because God was unwilling to save, but because you were unwilling to be saved- hypothetically. On that point, why would there be a final judgment if "saved" people already knew where they were going and "unsaved" people were already designated to hell. Seems superfluous to me. If people being saved is entirely the result of God's decision making then why do we have agency? Why have free will? God will save who He will save and let the others go to hell. Does that sound like a just god? Or a merciful god? I don't believe in a god of "pre-destination." Why come to earth at all? Why not just cut to the chase and have God's favorites go to heaven and the others... SOL. Sounds like what Jehovah's Witnesses kind of believe in. Why even spread the gospel if the decision has already been made for us? Why minister to me if God has already made up His mind and Mormons are going to hell? Are you trying to influence MY decisions, or GOD'S decisions? Something isn't adding up here. Again, we have FREE WILL, every, single, day. Thanks for your time, friend. Let me know what I'm missing here. God bless. ;)
Robert Owen Hey Robert. Thanks for the response. I actually grew up in Owasso, so I probably wasn't too far from you! I'm actually studying the Biblical languages at Oral Roberts right now, though looking into heading out to Arizona at some point. In fact, my wife and I intend to be at the Mesa Temple Easter pageant over the next couple days. Have you been before? I do appreciate your thorough response, but I have to confess to being a little disappointed that you focused primarily on the issue of election, as for me the issue of the extent of free-will is rather peripheral. While I have become a Calvinist, I grew up in a Free-Will Baptist church and have been Arminian on the issue of free-will for most of my life. All that simply to say, I don't see predestination as being the real issue between us. To give a brief response, however, I will say that I do believe that we have a free will, but not autonomous free-will, by which we might act contrary to the foreknowledge and decree of God. Bringing it back to Jesus' teaching in John 6, I would simply point out that he himself says that NO ONE is able to come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father, (6:44) that ALL of those drawn WILL come to him, (6:37) and that Jesus WILL raise up on the last day the one who comes to him. (6:40,44) Therefore, one is only saved if drawn by the Father, and all of those drawn by the Father will be saved. You did, however, tangentially touch on the point that causes true concern for me, when you mentioned that Satan was the one who does not respect our agency. If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to the teaching in the Pearl of Great Price (specifically, the Book of Moses ch. 4) that both Jesus and Satan set forth a plan for salvation, Jesus favoring free-will while Satan desired to force obedience. The reason this causes concern from me is that this interaction is said to take place in the pre-existence, in which, it is taught, Jesus is not the eternal God and Creator of all, including Satan, as the Bible teaches, (Col 1:16-17) but that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Satan as well as ourselves. (Book of Abraham ch. 3) As a Christian, this is a significant problem since the Bible teaches that Jesus has always been God, (John 1:1-18,29-30) and that he is our Creator. (John 1:3; I Cor 8:6) While I do know that Joseph Smith did teach that Jesus is a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 370) he also taught that Jesus has not always been so, but became a god. (D&C 93:12-14) More problematic still for me is the teaching that we ourselves are able to become gods like him one day. (D&C 93:16-19; Joseph Smith's King Follett Funeral Discourse) This seems to clash directly with Biblical teaching, which says not only that Jesus has been God eternally, but also that there is only one God, in both the heavens and earth, (Deut 4:39) that He has eternally been God, (Psalm 90:2; Isa 40:13-14) and that there will be no gods after Him. (Isa 43:10) It is because of these issues, therefore, that my real concern is not the Mormon church's position on free-will, but much more fundamentally, who is the god that they worship? My concern is that the Mormon church is teaching a false gospel, false Jesus, and false God, in opposition to those revealed in the Bible. Again, I really appreciate the time you have taken in addressing these issues, and I am hoping you won't mind to clarify these problems that I am seeing.
I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Christian. And it was just a suggestion. The movie has won awards and has been viewed millions of times, what have you seriously got to lose?
The Mormon cult is accursed. Galatians 1:6-8. Joseph Smith said an angel appeared to him. The Apostle Paul says if I or an angel preach another gospel to you let them be accursed. The book of Mormon is clearly another gospel. They and other cults are accursed. Our Lord Jesus is not a brother of satan. Jesus is the word and the word was GOD.
I see you're good at pointing fingers. Book of Mormon is not another Gospel, you were told that it was by other anti-mormon channels. Have you actually read it for yourself? Satan being the brother of Jesus, becoming a God and all those other things is non-sense if you don't know where they come from. Tell me, since when has God stopped talking? So for over 2000 years, the word of God is done, there's nothing more to say? That has never happened. Since the beginning of His creation, he has given us His word and His gospel. And God will give us more when he comes again to the Earth in the Millennium and he will instruct us. His work is not done brother.
Hello, The point is that we as Christians believe that if someone does not have Christ then they will go to hell. We love them so much we tell people the truth about God's word. I was a born and raised Mormon and was very faithful to my religion. It was not until someone kindly and respectfully had a conversation and lived Biblical Christianity to me that I started reading the Bible and realized that it did not mesh with Mormon doctrine. Pharisees believed they could earn their way to God...
Hello, I've got to say Ray confused me there. He says trust in Chris but also we need to repent...I've heard you can't eon your way into heaven but doesn't repentance mean put effort in? Oh it's so confusing 😕
Salvation is a gift. No man can earn their own salvation. However, we have to do our part and repent and exercise faith. Honestly, I think it's just Christians wanting to pick a fight with Mormons. To be saved takes effort, if someone is not putting effort, it makes me wonder what they're doing....not what Jesus told us to do. Serve others, preach the gospel, practice, obey, and so on...
Our judicial system works in a similar fashion. If one confesses and admits their sin (crime) their punishment is much less. But if one denies their crime and does not forgive or ask for forgiveness they are severely punished is proven guilty. Denying god and the Holy Ghost is considered some of the worst things a person can do. From your perspective these are nothing but to me they are very serious.
I'm really glad that you guys are clearing this up! one of your team members Kirk Cameron has, I'm sure "unintendedly" muddied the waters by his relationship with Glenn Beck, there are many Mormons who are using that relationship as a way to erase the line between Mormonism and Christianity, we are not to be un-equally yoked with unbelievers and I wish Kirk wouldn't have gone on Glenn's show, he also continues this, by endorsing Glenn Beck Un electable 2012 on his facebook page...
And the debate between grace vs works is so one sided. The bible says we need both. You CANNOT deny that. Some verses say you need one, some say you need the other, and some say both. Ray completely ignores one verse for another he likes more. To fight over one vs the other is rediculous. If we did not need works, why in the world does God give us commandments? How can Ray say gays are sinners and won't go to heaven? He says they need to repent and trust in Jesus. Are both of those things not works??!! Please someone explain that to me. Kirk Cameron said "salvation is a free gift and you cannot deserve mercy". If salvation is a free gift, then ALL sinners including Hitler will be recipients of that free gift. Unless you are going to add some necessary act to qualify yourself for this free gift?? Like repentance? Turning away from sin? Sinning no more? All things Jesus himself told people to do. You cannot earn salvation by your own works alone. All who would enter the kingdom of heaven must do so through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ told us things we need to do and not do.
Hey Guys, I've recently watched a few of your videos and want to say you raise a lot of good points. However I've noticed a number of misinformation you may not have been aware of. The main one I'd like to address is in response to your assertions that Mormons are not christian. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary a Christian is one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. The "Mormons" I know belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (Which I couldn't help but notice that no one on this show mentioned) How can a church that bears the Name of Jesus Christ not be Christian? The "Mormons" label you used comes across as a blatant act of marginalization the same with ambushing a young man on the street who "grew up Mormon". If you want to gain real credibility with people wanting to make an informed decision talk to real church leaders in an open and loving way.
I must be away from my computer for awhile. Feel free to reply to my last comment. Thanks for the new perspective I will have to see if true repentance or sorrow equals change at least personally speaking.
You defined Christianity by a belief on the doctrine of "grace alone". Are you saying that Catholics are not Christian? That has been a fundamental difference between the RCC and the Protestant churches for centuries, and now you claim that is doctrine is essential to be a Christian. How sad.
It is essential and RCC needs to repent of idolatry and the pope needs to stop mocking God, sitting on ugly snake throne; pretending to serve God while teaching people to sin with idolatry. Stop praying to humans and angels, it dishonors God because he is our provider and Jesus our sole high priest and mediator. Get filled with holy spirit. Too many Catholics I talk to do not respect God's word at all. Many of them love religion more than God, even if the religion directly rebels against God's ways. I went to RCC school and they taught me to bow to statues and pray to Mary. That leads to death. You will not go to heaven or live in blessing on Earth sinning against God. Disciples of Jesus do good works to show God's love to other people so they can be saved too, not to save ourselves. Only Jesus can do that.
To be honest I will always have faith in God and never deny Christ. You probably see people like me as brainwashed and hopeless but that is okay with me. I am happy with my life and my faith. Also, thanks for the responses even though they are something i disagree with i enjoyed the dialogue anyway.
The whole Bible pointed to the Christ. If I believed the Mormons received a new testament I'd have to believe the Muslims did too. The problem I have with Mormons is that they think God has a God over Him. Which is absurd. Christ is the Son of the Most High.
You said that mormonism teaches be ye therefore perfect, but its the bible and Christ that teaches that. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is not scripture that belings solely to Mormons.
Also the teaching of grace doesnt separate immortality from eternal life. Grace, or our ability to be ressurected, is a gift to all. Eternal life, that comes from living and abiding by what you know once you have become a new creature in jesus.
we believe you cannot earn your way to heaven. We do not hate Mormons, just like we do not hate Muslims or anyone else. We tell them about Jesus because we want them to know and have God's grace like we do. You need to know that just because someone calls themselves a Christian and lives religious lives doesn't not mean they are a Christian. I do believe that some Mormons do believe in the true and living God, just like I believe that just because someone goes to a Christian church doesn't...
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. At about 10 minutes they denounced this Biblical verse. Maybe these people at Living Waters aren't christians since the denounce the christian Bible.
He did my time. Legally justified. It's like it never happened. Erased in the mind of God. Gone, scattered as far as the east is from the west. Buried, in the sea of God's forgetfullness. Covered, under the blood.
Then please, by all means let 'God' be the Judge. The biggest reason I'm an atheist is because of the veiled inner hatred of Christians within the church either secretly or openly pointing fingers at each other saying who's really going to heaven and who isn't. Why point your fingers at the Mormons? My Mormon friends in high-school lived far more Christ-like lives than ANY of my other Protestant/Catholic Christian friends. Ironic, but this video just seems like the pharisees of old would put up.
Hi I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What if I've already received an answer through prayer from the Holy Ghost that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living restored Church? I already know the answer, I'm just curious to know what you would say.
Who are you praying to? The true and living God the Father, who is invisible and a spirit, has always been God and never had to work his way to Godhood, spoke the universe into existence including the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from and the star Kolob that he lives near and is self-existent and does not need food, air, water, sex, sleep, shelter, clothing or anything else a mere created being might need. Unlike pagan gods the true and living God is not married. In fact, he created Adam out of the dust of the ground - no wife needed. Or did you pray to the LDS Heavenly Father, who damns people who deny the 'eternal principle of polygamy' (D&C 132), threatened to destroy Emma if she didn't abide by her husband's adultery, is going to have women sharing their husbands with other women for all eternity and the 'other women' who will have the honor of serving as sex objects for LDS men who happen to get to the 'top level' of heaven? If you prayed to the LDS Heavenly Father, he is a liar. He lied to you. I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. Hosea 11:9 for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: I Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Colossians 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Hebrews 11:27 By faith Moses left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. Job 9:32 “In truth I know that this is so; But how can a man be in the right before God? “For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, That we may go to court together. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:24 "A spirit does not have flesh and bones" - Luke 24:39
@@jlewis8145 I cannot deny truth that my Heavenly Father has revealed to me. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living Church on earth. And yes, I did pray to the only true and living God.
@@parkerbarduhn9293 Does your Heavenly Father approve of a married man that gets a 16 year old girl pregnant, promises fathers and mothers a higher spot in heaven if they would let him marry their 14 year old daughters, sends men on missions and then marries their wives, marries two sets of sisters and two sets of a mother and her daughter, destroys a printing press that prints things he doesn't like, prints phony $3 and $4 bills, sets up an anti bank and when people want their money he moves out of state, speaks to the dead, is anointed by demons impersonating the dead, threatens to kill the governor of Missouri, teaches the first lie of Satan - "Ye shall be as gods," etc., etc.?
Meg, if you've repented towards Christ from your sin and you've put your trust in Him for the forgiveness of sin and His righteousness to save you then you are born again. Yes, Christians still struggle with sin in our process of sanctification. In Justification all our sins; past present and future sins are forgiven. In Sanctification we are constantly conforming to the image of Christ. Glorification will happen after we leave this earthly life. The key work in your statement is "struggle".
Just two cents, but I'm guessing he's a lapsed, or formally devout Mormon who was *genuinely* being moved, or 'touched' by Truth, but at 16:26, or :27, he made a decision, and it wasn't (at least in that moment) to accept Christ. What he said just after and how he acted was an archetypal, living symbol of a drama that's been played out since the beginning; and ultimately the cause of all suffering itself.
Galatians 1:6-9 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
mean they are a Christian either. It's about about who I am, it's about what Jesus has done. It not about what I've done but who Jesus is. God has called us to tell everyone about Christ, we follow Him because we love Him. God's Peace.
Acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jelousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, fractions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as i did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdon of god. Galatians 5:19-21 So im saved, but I still struggle with sin, some that are listed above. Does this mean I am still fallen?
I'm not exactly good at analogies but i try. I understand a little of what you are saying too. I just can't wrap my head around atheism much like you think Christianity is crazy. As for leaving the non-believers in peace that I cannot answer.
Kind of off-topic but, How are things in London Christianity-wise? Do you feel like society is moving to God or away from God? I ask because most every well-spoken Christian I see here on youtube just happens to be from London or round-abouts :)
@thewayofthemaster When you do works you are not earning heaven you are learning heaven. We can never repay what Christ did for us. But we can show how much we appreciate the gift he has given us by showing our respect by helping other and doing service for others. When we are service of our fellow man we are in the service of God. You say you are saved by grace...but have you been changed by grace? Christ requires us to change to become something. Trinity is that a bible term? and so where?
any one catch the obvious controdiction by ray i love the guy and all but you cant tell people to repent of their sins in one breath and then codem them when they say i am going to stay at it i will stay away from all the bad stuff. To repent means to turn away from so if i stay from sin like this young man said how is that bad.
Ah I see what you mean. But if you are truly sorry wouldn't it stand to reason that it (being sorry) would change you? I can see how odd it would be if hilter say came to christ seconds before death and ascended into heaven. But, in my mind if you do this you are changed, Perhaps this is where we differ. There is a saying "Semantics starts all arguments" I think this is pretty accurate especially on youtube.
Keep strong. Dont forget that despite the evil in this world, God is full of justice, mercy and love. Justice said we broke His perfect law - causing the world's previous perfection to be destroyed - and therefore we deserve Hell (like a punishment in any legal system but this is eternal as His perfect law is eternal too). Don't think you fit in that category? Ever done one of these?: lying, stealing - regardless of how small the object EVER, hating others - which is murder in God's perfect law, lusting (plus God sees our entire thought life). Justice says "the soul that sins shall die" - if we break one in thought/word/deed it's as if we're guilty of all of them. Quite simply, living by the law (which is doing everything perfectly) is impossible for sinful humans . The law shows us that 1. We will die in Hell if we fail to follow it and 2. We cannot save ourselves BUT, 3. God's perfect, immovable law points us to Christ, who followed and fulfilled the law in thought, word and deed perfectly in our place. He did what we couldn't and did it on our behalf. He was then sentenced to death on a cross, and took our personal punishment for our sin, paying our penalty (like paying our fine) completely FOR us, and has given us freedom. If we turn from the sins we have committed and repent (pursue the opposite direction of love through Christ) He will, overtime, recreate us back into that previously perfect image through The Holy Spirit which Jesus sends to all who accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior of their life. It's not about following the law - perfectly, as it's impossible - it's about letting Christ in to guide and teach you and obeying Him through His power (not ourselves as it's impossible without depending on His power and instruction). He is our substitute in His life, death and resurrection. He essentially rewrote history in our place so that, if you believe in Him, it will be as if you had never sinned if you accept Christ's death as our own in our place. He is in Heaven right now preparing a place for us so that He can take His faithful, believing children home with Him when He returns. He will ressurrect us from death when He returns, giving mercy to those who accept His love, instruction and teachings in their life, and give justice to those who refuse it. He doesn't want ANY of us to go to Hell and die for continuing in evil and rejecting His way to life, thats why He died FOR us. Hes giving EVERYONE a chance, He wants everyone to take the free gift of salvation from Hell. He wants us to be His and begin to follow His life of love and service through His power and abiding (staying) with Him. So long as we keep our hearts near to Christ through His strength, strive to follow His will of perfect love revealed in the Bible, and let Him lead in the midst of (very certain) pitfalls and struggles, we will, in time, win the ultimate victory over sin, pain and DEATH through Christ. Even if you are willing to be made willing, pray for Jesus to come in and He will do what we can't. Give us The Holy Spirit who will guide us in the right way. NOTE: You are NEVER too sinful or messed up that God cannot turn your life around through Jesus. EVER If you have any questions let me know xx
What service do you do yourselves by marginalizing and telling each other you're going to hell because of differing doctrine. To me, other atheists, muslims, hindi, ect ect (I.E. the rest of the world)... You're ALL Christians. Catholics, Anglican, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Mormon, regardless of whatever type of hat your preachers wear, you ALL follow Christ and worship him as a Deity at least in some shape or form. I don't care how bad you think the other denominations are at doing it. grow up
Hey your not so bad either Lol, I hope you keep learning and of course as a Christian I will pray for you. Also, give Citizen401 a little credit, he does seem to be well read and as a fellow christian I like how much passion he has. Cheers!
i would say no because they reject going to Jesus to get to God. they instead go through virgin Mary. when christ said" I am the way,the truth,and the life no man can come to Father but through me" where is the virgin Mary in this bible verse. virgin mary cannot intercede for no one. Jesus Christ is our mediator to God the Father
awesome-generally i used to think I was alone--other than with God---and of course with God's love I Am never alone--but now there are people like me around(you all) what a wonderful and helpful blessing to know you are on the planet doing God's perfect will---I find your level of understanding flawless--awesome-Thanks Freddie Fencepost-the artist birth name Floyd Fagan
Also you say that God is a spirit because it says in the scriptures that he must be worshiped by the spirit, That doesn't make any sense when God tells us he created man in his Image and in his likeness. In his Likeness means just like him. Which has to mean that God also has flesh and bones. Granted It is an immortal body and a perfect body, But a body nonetheless
Come on Ray this guy who apparently is not a practicing lds is wass not only sincere a d honest just like the non believer michel that you interviewed . and here is the big difference between Mormon and evangelical mormons are honest people evangelicals are not . why do i. Affirm this? Because of all what you keep saing about you listen i have been an lds for almost 30 years and i still like women thank God. do i desire them with lush? i always avoid that because i know what is what and do no tell me that you do not , that you feeling has disapeared from your hearth be cause i will tell you that you are a liar as simple as that unless you are attracted by men now. Now, you find reasons proove your evangelical point but you judgment is wrong for instance. How about if this guy had aswered to you all negative, yes how about if he had denied thet he had never adultered, had stolen. Or lied? You would still had told him that he was a lier would not you? He was not only honest to you all the opposite of you guys who deny now look if you do not do any of this then this put you in a position of perfection for only christ did not do this is it not true? Again how is it that you denied to him that repentance was the way to find grace and justification before God's eyes when you sin? You played with words. The same way the farisees did it in their time which make you a modern farisee . i do not know you personaly but it is very easy to find that you are no more than a deceiver selriches Person. Selfish and arrogant i know about your cheap salvation the confesing on the spot and been saved and the grace alon e and faith alone method . not only is wrong but your own other arminian chritians know that you are wrong. Specially the idea that God sends his children to hell for not believing in him and or not cobfessing his name even when they are. Better than you .how is that sin sends people to hell but goodness is no valid before God eyes according to your own men made gospel how stupid. The other shallow things that you mentio ed in the program such as the polilytheism and God men theory . men you are an ignorant arent ' you those lies of you for ignoring the lds doctri e wll send you to hour hell for false testimony.
I say therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if you believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins. It is actually God the Father that testifies that Jesus is the DIVINE SON of GOD. Some mormons are nice people -- politically I found that I had a lot in common with a mormon that I spoke to, but spiritually, not at all. Joseph Smith was a freemason (a witch), and there are rituals and self-curses in freemasonry. The mormon husband next door to me had a bad T-bone car accident that could have killed him. My wife's mormon friend's husband was later involved in a serious car accident. Dirty spirits are used to fulfill the curses of idolatry and witchcraft down through the generations as a "enslavement to sin". Only by meeting the Lord God Jesus Christ and repenting and breaking those generational curses can one be set free of those curses. Making a false representation of Jesus Christ and his Eternal Covenant (New Testament) is clear violation of the first and second laws. Go back to the laws of God in the Bible, and you will see where Joseph Smith diverges from God. "The knowledge of the law is a sound (good) mind". The laws of God in the Bible are a super-power discerner of creatures, but only knowing the Lord God Jesus Christ can give you a new, eternal life. Make sure you have BOTH.
Also, if you're looking for a Mormon to Christian dictionary, check out hotm dot tv and I think they have it in their store and I think Family Christian carries them now too. It compares the Biblical definition to the Mormon definition on literally everything from grace & faith to salvation and works. It's wonderful if you are witnessing to the young men that come to your door, tons of information and if you're like me, you'll learn a lot about Christianity along the way too.
Amen, it is through faith that we are saved. It's unfortunate that these Mormons, and Jahovas witniss are so mislead by doctrines of demons. Paul states which is one of the scriptures I've used trying to discuss true salvation through Jesus is that if anyone comes to you with a different doctrine then what we preached of Jesus crucified to take away the sins of the world do not receive them. For it is a false doctrine.
If they are saved in the future, they are, from G-d's perspective, saved *now*. So perhaps it is an indication of blessing somehow rather than from real evil..
Asking if a Mormon or anyone else is a Christian is the wrong question. The question is whether a Mormon is saved in Christ and a new creation. First of all we have to define who Christ is and if your definition is that he is the Archangel, Michael, or the spirit brother of Lucifer, as some others say, then the answer is no they are not in Christ since that definition is of someone that doesn't exist and could not have shed his blood to wash your sin nature away.
tclmente, it really depends on what they've done with the person of Jesus Christ. Catholicism is a works-based system as well along with every other religion outside of biblical Christianity. Many of Catholic practices do not run congruent with biblical teachings. See CARM(dot)org and search Catholicism
God bless you for trying to spread the faith. Sleepwalker seems to be unwilling despite your earnest recommendation. I will watch it instead, it sounds really interesting.
James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Are all that profess to be christian born again?
Who is a better person? I don't know Bill Gates but i would think he is a better person than Hitler as far as helping people most definitely. However, being saved and doing good works are two separate things. Bill does good works but he is not saved.
No, I do not believe anyone should be made unable to express themselves. Even if that message is something loathe with a passion. I know you disagree with me but i take it you don't wish to mark my comments as spam either. So we have commonground! Very little commonground but its something Lol.
theres so many people that are so ignorant. everyone has a conscience which God puts in everyone so no one has a an excuse! no one is innocent evreryone is guilty before a just God. no wotks can save you onlytrust and faith in Jesus Christ! God is sooooo good!!!!
Most kids don't have to do anything to receive a birthday gift & many parents who give them are nowhere near as good as God. A birthday gift shouldn't have to be earned & neither should grace. A good father wants his kids to work to receive rewards, learn things & help others. But he wouldn't say if they don't do the right amount of it he'll be glad about them being in hell forever. Whether you believe in Heavenly Father of the LDS myths or the Bible's they are definitely 2 very different Gods.
Christianity and the Bible teaches monotheism, that there is one God and was only and will ever be one God. Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I AM He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me” Mormonism and their prophet Joseph teaches that you will one day be god’s and that the church has failed to prevail because Joseph claimed it had. When clearly Jesus tells us “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” WHICH IS INTERESTING BC that’s the first lie was ever told... by ya know Satan..when the serpent told eve “you will be like gods” and that God was lying. Just saying sounds awful familiar. It also teaches that Satan is the spirit brother of Jesus. Which is impossible because Satan was and angel and is creation. Jesus is not. John 1:3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. Even without fact the Mormons church does not follow the teaching of Christ or the Bible as a whole, Christianity is monotheistic and Mormonism is Polytheistic.
Haha. It is quite interesting to see Christians try to convince other Christians that they’re not Christians. Even Paul had disagreements with Peter, that doesn’t mean that one is better then the other. They both point to Christ. It is a fools errand, like unto the arguments between the sadducees and the Pharisees, to argue among churches who sincerely believe in The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Good point, but Mormons deny some essential Christian doctrines. How do we accept them as true Christians if they add false narratives into the Bible and deny some essential doctrines? Thankfully, I think the majority of Mormons aren't extreme in their beliefs, and I think we would be surprised at how much they are like us. It's just so sad because they really try to live morally. :( What do you think?
JB BlenderBreakdown they don’t deny any scripture. The Pharisees claimed the Sadducees denied essential doctrine and they both rejected the truth. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, Jesus said. Anyone who says Mormons aren’t Christians are lying, whether they know it or not.
@@benbuietv Well, the Mormons: #1 deny the scriptural doctrine of the trinity and the true deity of Christ #2 teach that there is more than one God #3 teach that God the Father is literally an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bones #4 teach that human beings can become gods themselves #5 teach that Jesus was through physical, sexual union between God the Father and Mary #6 teach that eternal life is attained by a person's works and not by grace alone. (These are points listed from "Reasoning From The Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes) The question undoubtedly is: are these essential doctrines? I believe they are. But we also have to keep in mind that these points listed are the strictest Mormon doctrines. They are not necessarily being followed by most Mormons. However, if they deny essential doctrines, than they are not Christians but a cult. (btw, thx for sharing this with me.)
JB BlenderBreakdown #1 the concept of Trinity is not founded in Scripture. I’ll agree that it is hinted at, but it is founded on the nicean creed. #2 they don’t believe there is more than one God for us. #3 this it’s not refuted in scripture #4 the scriptures teach we will be joint heirs with Christ. #5 this is false. #6 they side with James on this one, not Paul. JB, these are not essential doctrines! :) these are petty disagreements that arise from gaps in scripture. Mainstream Christians need to realize that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are some of their most passionate friends allies. Feel free to disagree with them, but vilifying them and lying about them needs to stop. :)
@@benbuietv I understand what you're saying. Christians need to start acting like who they say they are and measure a person not by their beliefs but by their heart. Christians and Mormons may disagree with each other on some points, but we should overlook those and see each other as fellow human beings made in the image of God. As I said, I know of several Mormons that are truly amazing individuals. I apologize if it appeared that I was attacking Mormons, I was only trying to figure them out. Anyway, I sincerely appreciate you discussing this with me. God Bless!!! :-)
Is that a possibility, well yes. Even a serial killer if he truly is earnest and genuine can be forgiven if he or she accepts Christ. I would argue once you are born again and the Holy spirit is in you then such sin is not even a consideration.
I commend your faith. Yes their are so many souls to be won. The government is not ideal but the opportunities for giving people faith are innumerable. Do you like living there?
will we see only Trinitarian in heaven? if not, does doctrines matter or does Jesus matter? some people hold doctrines higher then Jesus. why do people do that? it's only Jesus that matter not Jesus and doctrines. Only Jesus! Is he not enough or do we have to tag some else on? :)
Can someone answer my question please? I sincerely want to know how this works. Here it is: Do you believe that YOU have a choice in regards to your salvation? It sounds like a simple question, but it's not. Please answer. :)
Hey Owen, Nice to read a sincere question for once. The thing is a salvation is a free gift because Christ paid for it when he died on the cross for our sins so we no longer have to face the wrath of God but rather delight in him and spend an eternity with Him in Heaven. But in regards to CHOOSING this is the best way I can put it: NO ONE chooses Christ, its ONLY through the grace of God that we are saved. This is because like in Romans 8:7, our mind is set on things of the flesh and because we LOVE the darkness and love to sin, we CANNOT submit to God's law and therefore we cannot please God. However we are held accountable because through the creation of the world and other things we KNOW God exists for we CLEARLY see his invisible qualities like his eternal power & divine nature Therefore we are WITHOUT excuse (Romans 1:20). The reason we are going to be held accountable is because it's not a PHYSICALLy incapable but MORALLY incapable 1 Corinthains 2:14. We are SPIRITUALLY discerned, That's why for BABIES or the MENTAL CHALLENGED they have an excuse for not accepting God-they really couldn't even if they WANTED to. But for the rest of us we CHOOSE to deny God because we WANT to continue in the darkness (John 3:19) Sorry, I know it's long but just know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for YOUR sins so you can LEAVE the darkness and COME INTO the light and delight in God and spend eternity with Him. Just repent and turn to God, so he can give you a new birth (born again) so you are then ABLE to see the beauty of God and his grace, mercy, forgiveness, and Love and fulfill His will for your life (1 Corinthians 1:18) Hope I helped, stay blessed!
Tabitha Kole Thank you for taking the time to reply. While I do believe that there is nothing we can do to "earn" our salvation (Christ paid justice in full for our sins and resurrection), I don't understand when people say there is "nothing" we can do to be saved. As you said: " we CHOOSE to deny God because we WANT to continue in the darkness." Okay- that means we CAN do SOMETHING (accept or reject God's grace). CHOOSING to deny God is the opposite of CHOOSING to accept him. But then they turn around and say-"No, no, that's actually God 'drawing unto you' or influencing you. You don't have to do anything." The problem I have with all of that is, does this mean we are forced into salvation = God will choose who he does and does not save ("NO ONE chooses Christ", as you said)? Or do we choose to accept His free gift, thus we can do "something" to be saved, even if it is God reaching out to us initially (of course I get that part). But the way people describe it makes it sound like we go on auto-pilot and turn into robots once God decides we are to be saved. Do "nothing" God is in control now. See what I mean? Hope that isn't confusing.
Robert Owen I like your question. But this is where FREE WILL comes in. Jesus died on the cross WANTING everyone to be saved but he KNOWS they won't all be because like said before we like the darkness rather than light. But God won't FORCE anyone into his presence, so if you don't accept his free gift of salvation now and repent and turn to him, then you won't be able to spend eternity with him in Heaven because you didn't choose him while you were here on earth (John 1:12, John 3:17). Like said in John 12:36: "Put your trust in the light WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME". God already knows those that are going to accept him into their hearts and those that are going to deny him, ultimately leading themselves on a path of eternal destruction. This is the way I like to see it: One day we ALL have to take a test, there are NO classes or courses to take that will help you pass, just ONE book with all the answers you'll ever need in order to pass. But there are those that CHOOSE and refuse not to read the book, so therefore they are PREDESTINED to fail the test but for those that CHOOSE to read the book (willingly) therefore they are PREDESTINED to pass the test. So for those that CHOOSE to ACCEPT the GRACE of God in order to be saved they are predestined to live in eternity with him for they acknowledged that WITHOUT the grace they couldn't be saved and please God (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:28-30). We did NOTHING to earn that grace per se, it was given to us as a free gift..who turns down a free gift? Not me lol :) Happy Easter!
Tabitha Kole Thank you for your time! I'm actually having this same discussion in the comments section. Perhaps you can give me a more clear answer or example on how free will and predestination work together? I will post some of my reply below: Christians tell me I am not saved and that I believe in a false Jesus. Then they say I need to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior (John 3:16, Mark 16:16). THEN, and this is the part that makes my brain hurt, ....THEN they say there is "nothing" I can do to be saved (Ephesians 2: 8-9). Er, what? Come again? Isn't BELIEVING IN CHRIST doing something? Do you see the frustration I have here. It doesn't make sense, no matter how many scriptures you throw at the issue, it doesn't make sense to have free-will, and then to NOT have a choice (pre-destination). What would you like for dinner tonight? Spaghetti with meatballs, OR meatballs with spaghetti? Come on now, you have a choice to make. First you say we have free will: "we aren't saying that we don't have free-will. We do." Then you say we are predestined: "If you could convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was wrong about predestination..." Do you understand, truly what predestination means? It means that you do NOT have a choice, a say, any consent whatsoever. It doesn't matter what you do or do not do- your destiny, your fate, is FIXED. If you think predestination means God knows eventually what you are going to choose, then that is not predestination, that is foreknowledge and yes, I agree that God knows what we will decide, but WE don't know- hence, the freedom to choose. I have a major issue with predestination because it makes life pointless. Nothing we do here will make a difference if we have no choice, no free-will. These two concepts cannot be reconciled. You have tried, much to your credit, but free-will and pre-destiny cannot exist in the same universe. Please explain to me, if you can, how we can do nothing to be saved, but we have to do something "believe in Christ." Maybe that's what you've been trying to do, but it's not clear to someone who views something and nothing as completely different concepts. In relations to John chapter 6. I do think it's interesting how I can read the same chapter and pull out all of the references to free will: "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Sounds like a choice to me. "every one that seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:" Again, believing is a choice we can make, is it not? If we can chose to "not believe" as you stated earlier, then it stands to reason that we can chose "to believe." Here is the very definition of choice: "the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities" -Merriam Webster Dictionary If we make a choice (free will) and the outcome is the same (predestination) then it isn't free-will at all, but merely predestination masquerading as free-will. Again, do you want apple juice, or juice made from apples? It may be re-worded, but it's the same dang thing. Believe in Jesus to be saved. You don't have to do anything, that is, "nothing" to be saved. Different actions, with the same outcome? You will go to hell if you don't repent. Hey, even though you repented and stuff, you're still destined for hell. Predestination is a rough gig, huh? I don't know how to be more clear on why these two concepts: free will and predestination, have no place working together. But perhaps there is something, some scripture, or some example you can share, that debunks my thought process. Best of luck. And thanks again.
I truly appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thank you. The truth is many Christians confuse "being saved by grace" with "doing nothing". We can NOT save ourselves thus we are saved by Gods grace. Yet Christ has taught us through His words and life what we must DO. The doctrine of salvation through faith alone, sometimes called solafidianism, is not a biblical doctrine: there are no instances in the New Testament of the phrases "grace alone" or "faith alone." The philosopher-theologian Frederick Sontag argues that Jesus himself was interested not in words, and not even in theological dogma, but in action: For the Jesus in Matthew, he says, "Action is more important than definition. "Richard Lloyd Anderson shows that even in Paul's major treatments of the doctrine of grace, particularly in Romans and Ephesians, there is a balancing element of works as well. Other New Testament writers, most notably James, make it clear that saving faith can only be recognized through works: "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17.)
I invite you to watch 180movie (their most watched RUclips video) before you simply unsubscribe. You already subscribed so you might as well and plus you have nothing to lose
The one thing you got right in this interview is when you told the guy that "when you're a Christian you'll be a fruit" Christians debating Mormons is like two people arguing over who has the better imaginary friend.
confession believing JESUS is not 100% the truth you can confess JESUS as your LORD but not teaching his WORD and instead teaching mans teaching! nope! Mormons are not Christians......
Please get your facts in order before you mislead people on what others believe. Ray Comfort gets to decide who is Christian and who is not? Give me a break. There are so many different Christian sects with different beleifs and understandings. In almost every segment where you state what mormons believe you are not fully accurate. Gods - We believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Yes we believe that someday, we can become like him. We hope to one day become kings and queens, priests and priesteses unto the most high God. The bible says there is one God. Yet we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and still call them one. God's body - Is Jesus Christ not God? Was he not ressurected with a perfect body? If God does not have a body, did Jesus loose his? Maybe he dicided he actually does not want the scars in his hands any more that he showed to his apostales? Did Jesus pray to him self? While he hung on the cross, was he talking to himself when he asked his father to forgive the Romans? When he told Mary not to touch him after his death because he had not yet ascended to his father, did he not ascend to himself?! Come on now. Gospel - Our deffinition is exactly the same as yours. It is the good news of Jesus Christ and his saccrifice for us. Heaven - The celestial kingom is not for PERFECT mormons. There is no such thing. No man besides Jesus was perfect. What you called the third heaven, is not what we call heaven. The 3 degrees of glory (celestial, terestrial and telestial) are not all heaven. The father and son do not dwell in the telestial kingdom, hence it is not their home (heaven). Hell - You are mixing up our beleif in spirit prison (a temporary location for spirits of men who have not yet converted or will not. This is where they go until the day of judgement). We believe that if you choose not to accept Jesus's sacrifice for your sins, you will have to pay for yours sins your self. This does not mean after you have paid the price for sin your self that you will go to heaven with everyone else. You will then inherit the telesital kingdom. Even King David from the bible rejoiced in the knowledge that God would not leave him in hell for eternity.
@@inChristalone1960 True. Grace is a gift. So, I'm suppose to just accept Jesus with no effort? Or am I suppose to have faith and repent? I don't understand.
@@Bob-fh3yk The scripture " work out your salvation with fear and trembling " This is working out a salvation you have already been graced with. Therefore you work it with the help of the Lord. But this is a joy to honor and walk in His ways. I hope that helps.
@@inChristalone1960 So it does take work! The way it's worded makes it sound like, the gift is there all you have to do is accept it. I've seen a lot of Christians not working out their salvation because they've accepted Christ already. The way I see it, God has already done His part in the bargain, to keep our end of the bargain we need to live the commandments, be obedient to the laws, follow Christ the best we can etc...
@@Bob-fh3yk This makes sense to me. I want to respond to the spirit when l feel it , l want to respond to the scriptures that move me.. like a two way conversation with God. I know however , that only Christ can cover my many sins and shortcomings. My actions toward God Can't save me. l do this because l love Him...and every day l see that l want to live all of His commandments. ....each very one. Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is Perfect. ❤ love.
Mormons are NOT Christians, here's why...the LDS don't follow Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith and HIS lies. #1 - The Mormon Geesus can't save you by himself, but needs YOU to do many, many "works" and he'll "make up the rest" that you don't accomplish. Grace went out the window there. 2# - The LDS Geesus is also the "spirit brother of Lucifer". #1 - This line of bull is NOT in the Bible and you LDS follow Geesus, which is DIFFERENT than the Christ followers of the Bible. #2 - The Christian Jesus CREATED all things, seen and unseen, and so CREATED Lucifer and CANNOT be Lucifer's brother, but is his CREATOR. Yeah, since you don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible but have CREATED your own un-Biblical Geesus, we don't have the same Saviour or Jesus in common.
Context is everything.
I find it really great that the person in-charge of the channel actually comments on the video. And that those comments are based upon the dialogue occurring amongst the viewers. Cool analogy by the way. God Bless your channel!
When that man is asked what God did to save him, and he says he died on the cross, that is rather proof he is not well versed in Mormonism. LDS followers believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three very separate and distinct beings or people.
Most Christians believe that
Mormons believe we are saved by grace.
Levi Barnes You mean by grace and more, right? This is taken from mormon.org
The prophet Joseph Smith taught ‘Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace...’ (see @en/jst/102). The Book of Mormon teaches ‘For we labor diligently to write to persuade our children, and also our brethren to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’ (@en/2_ne/25/23#23). The Book of Mormon adds ‘all that we could do [was to] repent of all our sins’ (@en/alma/24/11#11). A Book of Mormon prophet named Lehi taught, ‘There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah’ (@en/2_ne/2/8#8).
*****
Why didn't JS say, "you are justified BY faith and works"? If that's what he meant, wouldn't that have been clearer?
I, a Mormon, believe good works is not the price of salvation. Mighty faith and good works *is* salvation. Jesus doesn't want to change your location. He wants to change your nature. Therefore, as JS said, you are justified OF faith and works through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus has made (and/or is making) your weak faith and evil works into strong (justified) faith and Godly works. This is the gift Jesus has given you.
So what's our part? As pointed out above, "all that we could do" is to repent--that is, to ask Jesus in prayer to make us as He is. The requirement for being saved is wanting to be saved. That's it. But it's not as easy as it sounds. Change is hard and Christ's life, the life we're meant to emulate, ended in torment and ignominy. His will was completely subject to that of the Father. If that doesn't at least make you a little worried, you're not paying attention. But, as soon as, and to whatever degree, you want to be made more righteous, Jesus will grant it to you "without money and without price."
Does that differ from what you believe?
I appreciated your sincerely loving approach. Thanks and God bless you.
BTW, that quote from Lehi is part of a remarkably clear sermon on grace and salvation in 2 Nephi, chapter 2 including the unequivocal statement "Salvation is free" (2 Nephi 2:4). Paul + Lehi = wisdom. Check it out.
Levi Barnes I, a Mormon, believe good works is not the price of salvation: ...........Good works are meritorious for right standing before God after all one can do.Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (1 Ne. 3:7; 2 Ne. 25:23; Alma 5:27-8; 11:37; 34:33-5; Moroni 10:32; D&C 1:24-33; 25:15-6; 42:18-29; 58:34-43; 82:5-7; and 3rd Article of Faith).
+Levi Barnes JS did say that you are justified by faith and works, "by faith after all we can do." Further, the many gods thing and even man becoming god, these are things that are beyond heresy
+Levi Barnes by your own words, "good works are the price of salvation." No, good works are merely a result and none of us can ever be truly perfect, although we are to strive for it, but we are treated as perfect because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Jesus didn't simply die "to make our works efficacious" as many believe, but to make us holy in the eyes of a Holy God. To make a way that He might save sinners without bringing their sin into heaven. Jesus died for you Levi, and He rose again to justify you. By accepting this truth and putting your trust in Him you can have everlasting life, but if you want to justify yourself and work for your salvation, or pay a "price" than you will perish. I implore you, please accept His saving grace.
I think a person who is initially very bad and sinful but asks for forgiveness is better than a person who is slightly bad but denies God and denies being forgiven by Christ.
Just by reading the title of the video and not actually watching it, I would say - NO, mormons are NOT Christian. The most basic reason is that the Jesus "they" believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. The Jesus that muslims believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. The Jesus the jehovah witness' believe in is NOT the same Biblical Jesus. ALL of the aforementioned groups have their own bastardized version of the actual Holy Bible. Without knowing it, they ALL believe in the Satanic gospel. I've tried to witness to mormons and they are so ingrained within their false beliefs that they will not listen to simple reasoning. :O(
We ALL as Christians need to pray for them that their eyes will be finally opened to the Lord and for them to develop a *true* saving faith relationship with The Jesus Christ Of The Holy Bible.
Not Yet? --->
Praise The Lord and Godspeed to you all!! It is finished...
Hey Tony,
I realize this comment is three years old, but as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of lds, I have to ask something. How can you say that Mormons don't believe in the Jesus of the bible, when we BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE !? I know Muslims do not believe in the new testament bible, so you could certainly say that of them. We may believe in the Jesus of the book of Mormon, but we believe that is the same Jesus of the bible.
@@peace.love.n.blessings It's because we view Jesus as a "brother", a separate entity than God the father. We also believe we can become God and that God, the father, was once a man. To them that's heresy. They'll argue Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 45: 5 and say we don't believe in the Bible. This argument goes a lot deeper than you think.
I say we should focus on what we have in common, which is a lot more than what people realize.
It amazes me how many Christians bundle up on anti-mormon videos and few actually talk to real, active members.
Opps, sorry. For the late reply, I just saw your response!
Yep, I really like it there. A lot of the Christians there amaze me, they really shine their light and continuously place themselves amongst the unsaved. I had a fantastic, growing, eye-opening experience and I am SO glad that the Lord sent me there! In fact, He is sending me back next year, and I am SOOO excited about it =D.
Which city did you study in?
I have studied in Sweden too! It's a fabulous place to live, there are SO MANY souls to be won. And the same goes for Norway!
James 2:17 “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
This verse is only stating that faith without works is non-existent. Works are a result of faith, but you cannot earn faith (salvation) by your works. 2 Timothy 1:9 says, "[He] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
I love how these guys practice priestcraft (working for the church for money) while not a single position in the Mormon church is a paid position. It is all volunteer. How much money have these guys made off using Jesus. Mark Spits said in this video how he used to work a job Before becoming a minister. Meaning he doesn't work and just does church work for money. That is priestcraft and an offense to god. Also they said that God requires no payment? Obeying the commandments is "payment".
It's God that does the saving. We can't do anything for it, and we don't have to go on feeling guilty because "there is therefore now no condemnation."
Tell me....what do you do to pay for your sin? Notice I didn't say sins.
So when we hear people like David Barton call Glen Beck a Christian, we should call him out on that....
that email that you received was extremely encouraging! How powerful! I love such testimonies, God is so good. I have also been using the good person test to witness to people, especially at the gym, there have been a few encouraging events, and a few not so encouraging ones, but it is always beautiful to see the gospel going out to a dying world.
How is it just a “Mormon mantra” when it’s the words of Christ? “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48
One reason many cannot accept the gifts of God is because those who do not openly repent in the presence of many witnesses have not truthfully accepted themselves and naturally are unable to truly accept anything or anyone beyond their level of accepting of themselves---from the view point of who they think they are-unless of course that thing they are accepting is or has something they need or want-we cannot play that game with God--if we face rejection and reveal our true selves then and only then does time stop-The Love of God heals us-WE experience rejoicing inside -I Am, and receive the gifts of God-true happiness,true Love,true peace,true understanding,true prosperity,true understanding and a sound mind to name a few.FF
Why do you say we don't believe in the trinity, of course we do(please research before judging). We believe in God(heavenly father), Jesus Christ(his son), and the Holy Ghost/Spirit. We don't believe 99% of the things you're talking about. You say we believe in many gods??? We believe in one god. We believe in the same Jesus Christ and God you believe in. We read the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Since we believe in the trinity and Jesus Christ we are Christian.
Because, by default, Ray is right, and everyone else is wrong, and hellbound.
That's pretty much what it boils down to
The official Mormon doctrine is that men can eventually become gods and then populate their own planets. If many Mormons have become gods, then that means that there are many, many gods. This means that Mormonism is polytheistic religion.
why has so much Mormon teachings infiltrated so many christian churches?
Like what?
None of mormon heresies have infiltrated a biblical christian church.
@@gigiis526 A while back Pre-mortal existence was complete heresy. Now, a lot of denominations are talking about it. Polygamy was complete heresy, but some denominations acknowledge that it was allowed by God in times of famine and war. I'm sure there's more than that....
You should restrain from being so bigoted towards "Mormons." Not all people are the same. I personally am a Mormon, but I practice and view it a lot differently. I believe in the foundations, but I think Mormonism has strayed away.
It is interesting that D.L Moody spoke in the Mormon Tabernacle in 1899, and recently Ravi Zacharias.
cdowis did u listen 2 what ravi said at all?
Bad people can be saved is my point. But people who deny Christ and God can't. I would argue that a person who is truly sorry is a better person than one who isn't regardless of their past.
I am not Mormon, I am Christian but as they say “be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect” I must agree with them but here’s the thing, it does not mean to be absolutely perfect as Jesus was but it is telling us that we must do as God does through Jesus but not only that do as he commands, do as he suggests however you want to put it but it’s saying that we should do righteousness, that we should do;
that we should be like our father in heaven.
A good tree produces good fruit, the same as a bad tree reproduces bad fruit but if you are born of God you will produce good fruit! Which means that the things you do are rooted in the foundation of Jesus!.
So no I do not believe it the way they seem to believe it or they do believe it, I know that God is not saying we should be perfect, as in do nothing wrong, to be morally excellent right but at the same time Ray and them should explain what that verse truly means because it does actually say be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect but at the same time we can see what God means by “be perfect as God is perfect” in scripture, in the same chapter, God gives examples of what it is to do as God would do or more to the point does do!
Matthew 5:48
King James Version
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.:
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
There is too much here to address as you attack other's beliefs on so many levels. But one thing that constantly trips me is when Christians believe they can do "nothing" to be saved. Well by golly- that means everyone is saved then! No hell, no consequences! Then swift comes the reply: "Well no, you have to BELIEVE in Christ to be saved." Well- that's what's called a CONDITION, friends. And where there is one condition there can be others... Not to EARN grace, but to APPLY grace. Doctrine & Covenants Section 88:33: "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift."
Christians believe in salvation by grace alone because it is what the Bible teaches. Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." Salvation, then, is not based on something that we do, but it is the free gift of God. Even the faith in this context is the gift of God, as is also asserted in Philippians 1:29. God says clearly in His word not only that one cannot be justified by works, (Rom 3:28) but when addressing people who affirmed the necessity of grace but sought to maintain only one work (circumcision), He says, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4)
So I realize that you see this message as an attack on your church, but the intention is not to rob you of your faith, but to enable you to put your trust in the true God and true Christ who can save. Mormon scripture teaches that salvation results from grace AND works. (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32) It is also taught that Jesus was not always God, (D&C 93:12-14) when the word of God says that Jesus was eternally God. (John 1:1-18,29-30) Jesus himself taught that many false Christs would come after him, (Luke 21:8) and that many who claim to follow Jesus will be rejected by him in the last days. (Matt 7:21-23) This is our concern for our Mormon friends. We know you say that you follow Jesus, but our concern is that the Mormon church is teaching a false Jesus, and a false Gospel, and a false Jesus and false Gospel cannot save. (Gal 1:8-9)
SalvusGratia I understand Salvus. I've had the same discussion over a hundred times on my mission in Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri. And you know what? In many cases you are right. Mormons who misunderstand their doctrine are trying to save themselves in part, or in some cases, whole, based on scriptures they miss-understand, esp. Nephi. No wonder they get so stressed out. But Mormons who truly understand their theology know that "there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent." - Mosiah 3:17.
On the flip-side, we also believe that people who don't do their best to live a Christian life are fooling themselves if they think God only wants some passive belief in Him to obtain salvation. Now I don't think that's what you believe, but many people do believe in "easy grace" because it tickles the ears. I have talked to many people that feel that once they declare a belief in Jesus, they are "locked" into salvation, and nothing they can do: murder, rape, incest -will compromise their salvation. In my mind, that means heaven would be chock full of people deserving of hell, which doesn't make sense if God is just. They like the idea of a license to sin. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? -Romans 6:15-16
Mormons are obedient for to God for that reason. We are not trying to save ourselves.
The issue Mormons have with only a mere belief for salvation, is when that so-called belief is passive. Or in other words: " But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20
Also: "Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble; thou hast made thyself like unto them, not being justified." James 2:19. You get that part? You can believe, even know God exists, and still go to "hell," not being justified.
The Bible doesn't teach that a man is saved by "grace alone" as you put it. I have never found one passage of scripture that states it. Can you find one verse with those two words next to each other? People need to be careful when taking scriptures out of context. You seem to have left this one out: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." -Philippians 2:12. Well, if I went by that scripture ALONE, then I would have a pretty hard life indeed, trying to save myself. So what does it mean, in context? It means we have a choice to keep going or turn around after we've been "saved." Hence the phrase "endure to the end." We always have a choice. We can fall from grace if we so chose: "But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;" D&C 20:32.
However, I don't believe that any work on our own, that is, without God's grace, could merit salvation. When Mormons "work" they are not trying to earn their salvation (Christ did that), they are doing their best to become like the Savior because he embodies total happiness and peace. Why wouldn't we want to strive to be like the Savior? We also do righteous works to help people- it's selfless and God is happy when we help others because those are His children.
Here is a section of a paper I wrote on this topic:
“Aren’t we saved by grace alone? Don’t Latter-day Saints believe that their works help save them? Don’t Mormons ‘earn’ their way to heaven by keeping commandments?”
I know of no scripture that says that grace and only grace alone will save us, even though many quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6 as meaning such. Yes, ultimately it is only through grace that we are saved. “…and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)
Here are some scriptures that talk about commandments: Matthew 19:17, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Ecclesiastes 12:13, 1 Nephi 3:7, Mosiah 2:22 & 41, D&C 61:13, 76:51-52.
These next two quotes are from Elder Bruce R. McConkie and are found in What Think Ye of Salvation and Grace? (pgs. 47-48): “Suppose we have the scriptures, the gospel, the priesthood, the Church, the ordinances, the organization, even the keys of the kingdom- everything that now is down to the last jot and tittle- and yet there is no atonement of Christ. What then? Can we be saved? Will all our good works save us? Will we be rewarded for all our righteousness? Most assuredly we will not. We are not saved by works alone, no matter how good; we are saved because God sent His son to shed his blood in Gethsemane and on Calvary that all through him might ransomed be. We are saved by the blood of Christ.”
“Does salvation come by grace, by grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does without any question, in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees. We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come? In His goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required…” Elder McConkie then lists all of the things that God did for us that we could not do for ourselves (our works having no inclusion so far). Then he clarifies where our works come into play: “This is the word: Man cannot be saved by grace alone; as the Lord lives, he must keep the commandments; he must work the works of righteousness…he must have faith…” (Emphasis added in McConkie’s quotes)
The following two quotes from the Messages for Exaltation manual, 1967, (pgs. 137-38) which should clear up a lot: “We are tempted to think that when we serve God in keeping his commandments we earn our salvation. But the fact is that we have received from God everything we have. When we act or do any good thing, we are only taking his strength, the breath he has given us, the agency bestowed by him, to do his will.”
(“Purpose of Commandments”- is the heading for this quote): “When the Lord gives us commandments, they are not given to us so that we can earn his favor or repay his efforts. He gives us commandments as a kind and loving Father to prepare us to be able to receive all that he has, knowing that if we were unprepared, the blessings would prove curses instead… Every commandment can be seen as they way to prepare to receive greater blessings. Wisdom on our part would suggest then that we, with King Benjamin, see ourselves as unprofitable servants as counted on the scales of Justice, even though we have the promise of all things through the mercy, goodness and grace of our God.” (Also refer to pg. 121 in same manual and Proverbs 6:23)
“…why must we be commanded to serve one another? Oh, for that glorious day when these things all come naturally because of the purity of our hearts. In that day there will be no need for a commandment because we will have experienced for ourselves that we are truly happy only when we are engaged in unselfish service. Let us use the freedom which comes from self-reliance in giving and serving.” (President Marion G. Romney, The Gospel and the Productive Life student manual / religion 150, pg.105, italics added)
“God does not contradict Himself. He did not create man and then, as an afterthought, impose upon him a set of arbitrary, irritating, restrictive rules. He made man free- and then gave him the Commandments to keep him free.” (Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, 31 May 1957, pgs.4-5)
Elder M. Russell Ballard has said: “Unfortunately, there are some within the church who have become so preoccupied with performing good works that they forget that those works- as good as they may be- are hollow unless they are accompanied by a complete dependence on Christ.” (Ensign August 2005, found in article “My Maturing Views of Grace”)
I have more quotes if you would like to see them...
One more thing, Salvus. Whose decision was it for you to be saved? Did you make that decision, or did someone else make it for you? If you say God made that decision for you- then you negate the need for agency and believe in pre-destination. That is, God saves and curses whom He so chooses based on His whims. Hmmm. Not my kind of God.
Point being: You DID do SOMETHING to become "saved." If you did "nothing," as so many Christians say is a requirement to be saved, then you would be no different than the unbelieving masses who also do nothing.
Please don't kid yourself brother, you have AGNECY, FREE WILL. You can always choose whether you want God's grace and His plan, or Satan's hate and his plan. This choice is made daily, through our faith, our actions, or words. We have Christ's atonement to make up our incredible lack of perfection, but that doesn't eliminate our responsibility to become a better person- thus helping others become better, all thanks to God's love.
Yes, it is God's grace that saves us. But we can fall from that Grace if we choose to do so... "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21
Robert Owen
Well apparently I should have began my comment with "Howdy, partner!" You did you mission in Oklahoma, and I was born and raised in Tulsa!
I appreciate you thorough response, and I want to be clear in mine: I do know that you believe that the atonement of Christ is necessary, and I'm not trying to say that you don't. My concern is that Mormon scripture and theology teaches that that atonement is not SUFFICIENT for salvation, as the Bible teaches. As an example, the third article of faith, at least as presented in the Pearl of Great Price, states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." So yes, Mormonism teaches that the atonement of Christ is necessary, but it has to be joined with "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" to actually be effective.
As I've expressed, my concern is that the Bible teaches the exact opposite, that we are justified "by faith APART FROM works of the law." (Rom 3:28) I do indeed agree that we ought to produce good works, but those works flow out of our becoming a new creation, all of which is from God and not ourselves, (2 Cor 5:17-19) and is not unto our justification. (Rom 3:20) So I agree that "faith without works is dead", (James 2:20) but I also recognize the context of that passage, and that James has just said, "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) In spite of this clear teaching of Scripture, however, Joseph Smith taught that " to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", p 332)
The issue between us, therefore, is not whether the atonement of Christ is necessary, or whether we ought to do good works. The issue is whether the atonement of Christ, apart from works, is sufficient to justify a person before God. The Bible says clearly that it is, (Rom 3:28; Eph 2:8-9) but Mormonism disagrees.
Similarly, I know you say that the primary reason to do good works is to be like our Savior. And indeed, if I were to apply my own definitions to those terms, I would heartily agree. However, I don't think we would mean the same thing when we say those words. When I speak of being Christ-like in good works, I mean that a person reflects the attributes, the love, compassion, and righteousness of Jesus. But Mormon theology goes beyond this, and teaches that I can become a god in the same way that Jesus did. (D&C 93:12-19) This is a problem for me, because the Bible teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, (John 1:1-18, 29-30) and has created everything, including ourselves, angels, etc., (Col 1:16-17) and that there will never be gods other than God. (Isa 43:10)
It is for these reasons that my concern remains that the Mormon church is teaching a false gospel, a false Jesus, and a false god, and for those reasons must be rejected out of obedience to God's word. (Gal 1:8-9; Deut 13:1-3)
A final word, since you asked about who decided that I should be saved. As his servant, I can only confess what Jesus taught: that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, that all of those drawn by the Father will come to Jesus, and that Jesus is faithful and powerful to keep all of those drawn to him unto salvation. (John 6:37-40,65) My salvation is entirely the result of Christ's work and faithfulness, not mine.
Cool- I served in Broken Arrow next to Rhema Bible Church. You can imagine we got a lot of heat from the locals. They even taught a class on how to get rid of Mormons. Curious thing. ;)
Yeah- this is a tough topic because of the terminology and intent of the terminology. You mentioned the articles of faith, and I can see the potential confusion and frustration. However, being obedient to anything, any commandment is not done apart from God...how can it be? They are God's commandments- so the second we do anything good or obedient, it is He working through us to bring about the fulfilling of that commandment. [see quote from last message I sent] I'm sure you'll agree, that whenever you are truly helping someone, for no other reason than God's love- you don't feel like you were alone in the matter, or that you were alone right up until God stepped in and finished the rest. Like some sort of tag team. This is what many people think Mormons believe, and I admit, that's understandable based on scriptures taken out of context. But it couldn't be more wrong.
There are not 2 categories when it comes to good works: Category A) Our righteous works. Category B) God's grace. They are inseperable. I know you believe that too.
So any time we do any good thing it is God, or his Holy Spirit working in us to accomplish good things. But on this next point we may always have to disagree: The individual, at some point, has to want to do righteous things based on THEIR DECISION, THEIR AGENCY. Yes, God influences His children to make good decisions, just as surely as Satan influences us to make poor decisions and sin. But it is WE who have to eventually choose who we will follow.
You stated: "My salvation is entirely the result of Christ's work and faithfulness, not mine."
I would say that's almost entirely true, but you had to choose to be saved. If someone asked you how you were saved, do you reply: "I had no choice, God made me do it." That's like a sinner saying "I'm not really at fault here, Satan made me do it."
You are not a robot for God, where he takes over completely and puts you on auto-pilot. Unlike Satan, He respects your agency. Every day you are making decisions on whether to sin or not. As such, you, me and everyone besides Christ is imperfect. If it was God and God alone working through us for our salvation, then either A) We would perfect the second He took over, or B) He is failing every Christian since the beginning of time, because all are sinners- even Christians.
Of course, the correct scenario is C) God is trying to help us every day and it is we who decide to accept His help- His Grace, or reject it. In effect, we become our own worst enemies when we decide to sin. Satan, of course, tries to pull us in the sinning direction, but it is still our choice. That's why when you ask some Mormons if they've been saved, they seem hesitant. Some Mormons, not all. As long as they are generally living their lives to the best of their ability (through God's grace, His power), then of course they will be saved. They certainly aren't the servants of Satan and hell.
Now, as you draw closer to God it becomes easier to not sin and feel Him directing you, granted...but until you die, until the Final Judgment, you still can fall from grace. Not because God was unwilling to save, but because you were unwilling to be saved- hypothetically. On that point, why would there be a final judgment if "saved" people already knew where they were going and "unsaved" people were already designated to hell. Seems superfluous to me.
If people being saved is entirely the result of God's decision making then why do we have agency? Why have free will? God will save who He will save and let the others go to hell. Does that sound like a just god? Or a merciful god? I don't believe in a god of "pre-destination." Why come to earth at all? Why not just cut to the chase and have God's favorites go to heaven and the others... SOL. Sounds like what Jehovah's Witnesses kind of believe in.
Why even spread the gospel if the decision has already been made for us? Why minister to me if God has already made up His mind and Mormons are going to hell? Are you trying to influence MY decisions, or GOD'S decisions? Something isn't adding up here. Again, we have FREE WILL, every, single, day.
Thanks for your time, friend. Let me know what I'm missing here. God bless. ;)
Robert Owen
Hey Robert. Thanks for the response. I actually grew up in Owasso, so I probably wasn't too far from you! I'm actually studying the Biblical languages at Oral Roberts right now, though looking into heading out to Arizona at some point. In fact, my wife and I intend to be at the Mesa Temple Easter pageant over the next couple days. Have you been before?
I do appreciate your thorough response, but I have to confess to being a little disappointed that you focused primarily on the issue of election, as for me the issue of the extent of free-will is rather peripheral. While I have become a Calvinist, I grew up in a Free-Will Baptist church and have been Arminian on the issue of free-will for most of my life. All that simply to say, I don't see predestination as being the real issue between us.
To give a brief response, however, I will say that I do believe that we have a free will, but not autonomous free-will, by which we might act contrary to the foreknowledge and decree of God. Bringing it back to Jesus' teaching in John 6, I would simply point out that he himself says that NO ONE is able to come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father, (6:44) that ALL of those drawn WILL come to him, (6:37) and that Jesus WILL raise up on the last day the one who comes to him. (6:40,44) Therefore, one is only saved if drawn by the Father, and all of those drawn by the Father will be saved.
You did, however, tangentially touch on the point that causes true concern for me, when you mentioned that Satan was the one who does not respect our agency. If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to the teaching in the Pearl of Great Price (specifically, the Book of Moses ch. 4) that both Jesus and Satan set forth a plan for salvation, Jesus favoring free-will while Satan desired to force obedience. The reason this causes concern from me is that this interaction is said to take place in the pre-existence, in which, it is taught, Jesus is not the eternal God and Creator of all, including Satan, as the Bible teaches, (Col 1:16-17) but that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Satan as well as ourselves. (Book of Abraham ch. 3) As a Christian, this is a significant problem since the Bible teaches that Jesus has always been God, (John 1:1-18,29-30) and that he is our Creator. (John 1:3; I Cor 8:6)
While I do know that Joseph Smith did teach that Jesus is a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 370) he also taught that Jesus has not always been so, but became a god. (D&C 93:12-14) More problematic still for me is the teaching that we ourselves are able to become gods like him one day. (D&C 93:16-19; Joseph Smith's King Follett Funeral Discourse) This seems to clash directly with Biblical teaching, which says not only that Jesus has been God eternally, but also that there is only one God, in both the heavens and earth, (Deut 4:39) that He has eternally been God, (Psalm 90:2; Isa 40:13-14) and that there will be no gods after Him. (Isa 43:10) It is because of these issues, therefore, that my real concern is not the Mormon church's position on free-will, but much more fundamentally, who is the god that they worship? My concern is that the Mormon church is teaching a false gospel, false Jesus, and false God, in opposition to those revealed in the Bible.
Again, I really appreciate the time you have taken in addressing these issues, and I am hoping you won't mind to clarify these problems that I am seeing.
I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Christian. And it was just a suggestion. The movie has won awards and has been viewed millions of times, what have you seriously got to lose?
The Mormon cult is accursed. Galatians 1:6-8. Joseph Smith said an angel appeared to him. The Apostle Paul says if I or an angel preach another gospel to you let them be accursed. The book of Mormon is clearly another gospel. They and other cults are accursed. Our Lord Jesus is not a brother of satan. Jesus is the word and the word was GOD.
I see you're good at pointing fingers. Book of Mormon is not another Gospel, you were told that it was by other anti-mormon channels. Have you actually read it for yourself? Satan being the brother of Jesus, becoming a God and all those other things is non-sense if you don't know where they come from.
Tell me, since when has God stopped talking? So for over 2000 years, the word of God is done, there's nothing more to say? That has never happened. Since the beginning of His creation, he has given us His word and His gospel. And God will give us more when he comes again to the Earth in the Millennium and he will instruct us. His work is not done brother.
Hello, The point is that we as Christians believe that if someone does not have Christ then they will go to hell. We love them so much we tell people the truth about God's word. I was a born and raised Mormon and was very faithful to my religion. It was not until someone kindly and respectfully had a conversation and lived Biblical Christianity to me that I started reading the Bible and realized that it did not mesh with Mormon doctrine. Pharisees believed they could earn their way to God...
MsFreedom2fly amen 4yr testimony u can show true light in CHRIST andwitness 4 H iM
Also someone marked your comment as spam. It was not me though I fight for freedom of expression.
Hello, I've got to say Ray confused me there. He says trust in Chris but also we need to repent...I've heard you can't eon your way into heaven but doesn't repentance mean put effort in? Oh it's so confusing 😕
Salvation is a gift. No man can earn their own salvation. However, we have to do our part and repent and exercise faith. Honestly, I think it's just Christians wanting to pick a fight with Mormons.
To be saved takes effort, if someone is not putting effort, it makes me wonder what they're doing....not what Jesus told us to do. Serve others, preach the gospel, practice, obey, and so on...
Our judicial system works in a similar fashion. If one confesses and admits their sin (crime) their punishment is much less. But if one denies their crime and does not forgive or ask for forgiveness they are severely punished is proven guilty. Denying god and the Holy Ghost is considered some of the worst things a person can do. From your perspective these are nothing but to me they are very serious.
I'm really glad that you guys are clearing this up! one of your team members Kirk Cameron has, I'm sure "unintendedly" muddied the waters by his relationship with Glenn Beck, there are many Mormons who are using that relationship as a way to erase the line between Mormonism and Christianity, we are not to be un-equally yoked with unbelievers and I wish Kirk wouldn't have gone on Glenn's show, he also continues this, by endorsing Glenn Beck Un electable 2012 on his facebook page...
And the debate between grace vs works is so one sided. The bible says we need both. You CANNOT deny that. Some verses say you need one, some say you need the other, and some say both. Ray completely ignores one verse for another he likes more. To fight over one vs the other is rediculous. If we did not need works, why in the world does God give us commandments? How can Ray say gays are sinners and won't go to heaven? He says they need to repent and trust in Jesus. Are both of those things not works??!! Please someone explain that to me. Kirk Cameron said "salvation is a free gift and you cannot deserve mercy". If salvation is a free gift, then ALL sinners including Hitler will be recipients of that free gift. Unless you are going to add some necessary act to qualify yourself for this free gift?? Like repentance? Turning away from sin? Sinning no more? All things Jesus himself told people to do. You cannot earn salvation by your own works alone. All who would enter the kingdom of heaven must do so through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ told us things we need to do and not do.
Hey Guys, I've recently watched a few of your videos and want to say you raise a lot of good points. However I've noticed a number of misinformation you may not have been aware of. The main one I'd like to address is in response to your assertions that Mormons are not christian.
According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary a Christian is one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. The "Mormons" I know belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (Which I couldn't help but notice that no one on this show mentioned) How can a church that bears the Name of Jesus Christ not be Christian? The "Mormons" label you used comes across as a blatant act of marginalization the same with ambushing a young man on the street who "grew up Mormon". If you want to gain real credibility with people wanting to make an informed decision talk to real church leaders in an open and loving way.
I must be away from my computer for awhile. Feel free to reply to my last comment. Thanks for the new perspective I will have to see if true repentance or sorrow equals change at least personally speaking.
You defined Christianity by a belief on the doctrine of "grace alone". Are you saying that Catholics are not Christian? That has been a fundamental difference between the RCC and the Protestant churches for centuries, and now you claim that is doctrine is essential to be a Christian.
How sad.
cdowis u need 2 come out of the catholics
It is essential and RCC needs to repent of idolatry and the pope needs to stop mocking God, sitting on ugly snake throne; pretending to serve God while teaching people to sin with idolatry. Stop praying to humans and angels, it dishonors God because he is our provider and Jesus our sole high priest and mediator. Get filled with holy spirit. Too many Catholics I talk to do not respect God's word at all. Many of them love religion more than God, even if the religion directly rebels against God's ways. I went to RCC school and they taught me to bow to statues and pray to Mary. That leads to death. You will not go to heaven or live in blessing on Earth sinning against God.
Disciples of Jesus do good works to show God's love to other people so they can be saved too, not to save ourselves. Only Jesus can do that.
I studied Sweden for well over 2 semesters in university. Let's just say Norway is a much better place to live.
To be honest I will always have faith in God and never deny Christ. You probably see people like me as brainwashed and hopeless but that is okay with me. I am happy with my life and my faith. Also, thanks for the responses even though they are something i disagree with i enjoyed the dialogue anyway.
The whole Bible pointed to the Christ. If I believed the Mormons received a new testament I'd have to believe the Muslims did too. The problem I have with Mormons is that they think God has a God over Him. Which is absurd. Christ is the Son of the Most High.
You said that mormonism teaches be ye therefore perfect, but its the bible and Christ that teaches that. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is not scripture that belings solely to Mormons.
Also the teaching of grace doesnt separate immortality from eternal life. Grace, or our ability to be ressurected, is a gift to all. Eternal life, that comes from living and abiding by what you know once you have become a new creature in jesus.
we believe you cannot earn your way to heaven. We do not hate Mormons, just like we do not hate Muslims or anyone else. We tell them about Jesus because we want them to know and have God's grace like we do. You need to know that just because someone calls themselves a Christian and lives religious lives doesn't not mean they are a Christian. I do believe that some Mormons do believe in the true and living God, just like I believe that just because someone goes to a Christian church doesn't...
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. At about 10 minutes they denounced this Biblical verse. Maybe these people at Living Waters aren't christians since the denounce the christian Bible.
outstanding and SO helpful! thank you for doing this program!
This episode made me a little upset. Works-based faith is the exact OPPOSITE of the gospel, yet it shares the same word in Mormonism.
He did my time. Legally justified. It's like it never happened. Erased in the mind of God. Gone, scattered as far as the east is from the west. Buried, in the sea of God's forgetfullness. Covered, under the blood.
Then please, by all means let 'God' be the Judge. The biggest reason I'm an atheist is because of the veiled inner hatred of Christians within the church either secretly or openly pointing fingers at each other saying who's really going to heaven and who isn't. Why point your fingers at the Mormons? My Mormon friends in high-school lived far more Christ-like lives than ANY of my other Protestant/Catholic Christian friends. Ironic, but this video just seems like the pharisees of old would put up.
Hi I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What if I've already received an answer through prayer from the Holy Ghost that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living restored Church?
I already know the answer, I'm just curious to know what you would say.
Who are you praying to?
The true and living God the Father, who is invisible and a spirit, has always been God and never had to work his way to Godhood, spoke the universe into existence including the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from and the star Kolob that he lives near and is self-existent and does not need food, air, water, sex, sleep, shelter, clothing or anything else a mere created being might need. Unlike pagan gods the true and living God is not married. In fact, he created Adam out of the dust of the ground - no wife needed.
Or did you pray to the LDS Heavenly Father, who damns people who deny the 'eternal principle of polygamy' (D&C 132), threatened to destroy Emma if she didn't abide by her husband's adultery, is going to have women sharing their husbands with other women for all eternity and the 'other women' who will have the honor of serving as sex objects for LDS men who happen to get to the 'top level' of heaven?
If you prayed to the LDS Heavenly Father, he is a liar. He lied to you.
I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Hosea 11:9 for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee:
I Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Colossians 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Hebrews 11:27
By faith Moses left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
Job 9:32 “In truth I know that this is so; But how can a man be in the right before God?
“For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, That we may go to court together.
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:24
"A spirit does not have flesh and bones" - Luke 24:39
@@jlewis8145 I cannot deny truth that my Heavenly Father has revealed to me. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living Church on earth. And yes, I did pray to the only true and living God.
@@parkerbarduhn9293
Does your Heavenly Father approve of a married man that gets a 16 year old girl pregnant, promises fathers and mothers a higher spot in heaven if they would let him marry their 14 year old daughters, sends men on missions and then marries their wives, marries two sets of sisters and two sets of a mother and her daughter, destroys a printing press that prints things he doesn't like, prints phony $3 and $4 bills, sets up an anti bank and when people want their money he moves out of state, speaks to the dead, is anointed by demons impersonating the dead, threatens to kill the governor of Missouri, teaches the first lie of Satan - "Ye shall be as gods," etc., etc.?
@@jlewis8145 Everything you just said is false. Where are you getting these lies from?
@@parkerbarduhn9293 Your blood be upon your own head.
Meg, if you've repented towards Christ from your sin and you've put your trust in Him for the forgiveness of sin and His righteousness to save you then you are born again. Yes, Christians still struggle with sin in our process of sanctification. In Justification all our sins; past present and future sins are forgiven. In Sanctification we are constantly conforming to the image of Christ. Glorification will happen after we leave this earthly life. The key work in your statement is "struggle".
For those that don't want to watch this whole video, the answer is no.
Just two cents, but I'm guessing he's a lapsed, or formally devout Mormon who was *genuinely* being moved, or 'touched' by Truth, but at 16:26, or :27, he made a decision, and it wasn't (at least in that moment) to accept Christ. What he said just after and how he acted was an archetypal, living symbol of a drama that's been played out since the beginning; and ultimately the cause of all suffering itself.
Galatians 1:6-9 KJV
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
mean they are a Christian either. It's about about who I am, it's about what Jesus has done. It not about what I've done but who Jesus is. God has called us to tell everyone about Christ, we follow Him because we love Him. God's Peace.
Acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jelousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, fractions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as i did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdon of god. Galatians 5:19-21
So im saved, but I still struggle with sin, some that are listed above. Does this mean I am still fallen?
I'm not exactly good at analogies but i try. I understand a little of what you are saying too. I just can't wrap my head around atheism much like you think Christianity is crazy. As for leaving the non-believers in peace that I cannot answer.
That is not true. The church teaches generosity and love, but lds members are taught to have disdain for Christianty and it's teachers.
Kind of off-topic but, How are things in London Christianity-wise? Do you feel like society is moving to God or away from God? I ask because most every well-spoken Christian I see here on youtube just happens to be from London or round-abouts :)
@thewayofthemaster When you do works you are not earning heaven you are learning heaven. We can never repay what Christ did for us. But we can show how much we appreciate the gift he has given us by showing our respect by helping other and doing service for others. When we are service of our fellow man we are in the service of God. You say you are saved by grace...but have you been changed by grace? Christ requires us to change to become something. Trinity is that a bible term? and so where?
any one catch the obvious controdiction by ray i love the guy and all but you cant tell people to repent of their sins in one breath and then codem them when they say i am going to stay at it i will stay away from all the bad stuff. To repent means to turn away from so if i stay from sin like this young man said how is that bad.
Ah I see what you mean. But if you are truly sorry wouldn't it stand to reason that it (being sorry) would change you? I can see how odd it would be if hilter say came to christ seconds before death and ascended into heaven. But, in my mind if you do this you are changed, Perhaps this is where we differ. There is a saying "Semantics starts all arguments" I think this is pretty accurate especially on youtube.
Yes I keep asking that! Are Catholics Christian they believe and love God but baptists are saying they're not so I'm confused.
Keep strong. Dont forget that despite the evil in this world, God is full of justice, mercy and love.
Justice said we broke His perfect law - causing the world's previous perfection to be destroyed - and therefore we deserve Hell (like a punishment in any legal system but this is eternal as His perfect law is eternal too). Don't think you fit in that category? Ever done one of these?: lying, stealing - regardless of how small the object EVER, hating others - which is murder in God's perfect law, lusting (plus God sees our entire thought life). Justice says "the soul that sins shall die" - if we break one in thought/word/deed it's as if we're guilty of all of them. Quite simply, living by the law (which is doing everything perfectly) is impossible for sinful humans
. The law shows us that 1. We will die in Hell if we fail to follow it and 2. We cannot save ourselves BUT, 3. God's perfect, immovable law points us to Christ, who followed and fulfilled the law in thought, word and deed perfectly in our place. He did what we couldn't and did it on our behalf. He was then sentenced to death on a cross, and took our personal punishment for our sin, paying our penalty (like paying our fine) completely FOR us, and has given us freedom.
If we turn from the sins we have committed and repent (pursue the opposite direction of love through Christ) He will, overtime, recreate us back into that previously perfect image through The Holy Spirit which Jesus sends to all who accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior of their life. It's not about following the law - perfectly, as it's impossible - it's about letting Christ in to guide and teach you and obeying Him through His power (not ourselves as it's impossible without depending on His power and instruction).
He is our substitute in His life, death and resurrection. He essentially rewrote history in our place so that, if you believe in Him, it will be as if you had never sinned if you accept Christ's death as our own in our place.
He is in Heaven right now preparing a place for us so that He can take His faithful, believing children home with Him when He returns. He will ressurrect us from death when He returns, giving mercy to those who accept His love, instruction and teachings in their life, and give justice to those who refuse it.
He doesn't want ANY of us to go to Hell and die for continuing in evil and rejecting His way to life, thats why He died FOR us. Hes giving EVERYONE a chance, He wants everyone to take the free gift of salvation from Hell. He wants us to be His and begin to follow His life of love and service through His power and abiding (staying) with Him. So long as we keep our hearts near to Christ through His strength, strive to follow His will of perfect love revealed in the Bible, and let Him lead in the midst of (very certain) pitfalls and struggles, we will, in time, win the ultimate victory over sin, pain and DEATH through Christ. Even if you are willing to be made willing, pray for Jesus to come in and He will do what we can't. Give us The Holy Spirit who will guide us in the right way.
NOTE: You are NEVER too sinful or messed up that God cannot turn your life around through Jesus. EVER
If you have any questions let me know xx
I think you have "won" this argument. Your responses are far more researched that your oppositions' responses.
What service do you do yourselves by marginalizing and telling each other you're going to hell because of differing doctrine. To me, other atheists, muslims, hindi, ect ect (I.E. the rest of the world)... You're ALL Christians. Catholics, Anglican, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Mormon, regardless of whatever type of hat your preachers wear, you ALL follow Christ and worship him as a Deity at least in some shape or form. I don't care how bad you think the other denominations are at doing it. grow up
Hmm what do you mean by changed? Is that different than sorry? I'm sensing we are getting close to a good understanding here.
Hello Ray Hello!!!!!!!! old are you friend!! God Bless you!!!!!!!!!!
Hey your not so bad either Lol, I hope you keep learning and of course as a Christian I will pray for you. Also, give Citizen401 a little credit, he does seem to be well read and as a fellow christian I like how much passion he has. Cheers!
¿Este vídeo se encuentra en español?
Agradecería me lo indicaran.
i would say no because they reject going to Jesus to get to God. they instead go through virgin Mary. when christ said" I am the way,the truth,and the life no man can come to Father but through me" where is the virgin Mary in this bible verse. virgin mary cannot intercede for no one. Jesus Christ is our mediator to God the Father
Actually, most of my friends are secular.
Please do a show about the word lucifer.
awesome-generally i used to think I was alone--other than with God---and of course with God's love I Am never alone--but now there are people like me around(you all) what a wonderful and helpful blessing to know you are on the planet doing God's perfect will---I find your level of understanding flawless--awesome-Thanks Freddie Fencepost-the artist birth name Floyd Fagan
Also you say that God is a spirit because it says in the scriptures that he must be worshiped by the spirit, That doesn't make any sense when God tells us he created man in his Image and in his likeness. In his Likeness means just like him. Which has to mean that God also has flesh and bones. Granted It is an immortal body and a perfect body, But a body nonetheless
Come on Ray this guy who apparently is not a practicing lds is wass not only sincere a d honest just like the non believer michel that you interviewed . and here is the big difference between Mormon and evangelical mormons are honest people evangelicals are not . why do i. Affirm this? Because of all what you keep saing about you listen i have been an lds for almost 30 years and i still like women thank God. do i desire them with lush? i always avoid that because i know what is what and do no tell me that you do not , that you feeling has disapeared from your hearth be cause i will tell you that you are a liar as simple as that unless you are attracted by men now. Now, you find reasons proove your evangelical point but you judgment is wrong for instance. How about if this guy had aswered to you all negative, yes how about if he had denied thet he had never adultered, had stolen. Or lied? You would still had told him that he was a lier would not you? He was not only honest to you all the opposite of you guys who deny now look if you do not do any of this then this put you in a position of perfection for only christ did not do this is it not true? Again how is it that you denied to him that repentance was the way to find grace and justification before God's eyes when you sin? You played with words. The same way the farisees did it in their time which make you a modern farisee . i do not know you personaly but it is very easy to find that you are no more than a deceiver selriches Person. Selfish and arrogant i know about your cheap salvation the confesing on the spot and been saved and the grace alon e and faith alone method . not only is wrong but your own other arminian chritians know that you are wrong. Specially the idea that God sends his children to hell for not believing in him and or not cobfessing his name even when they are. Better than you .how is that sin sends people to hell but goodness is no valid before God eyes according to your own men made gospel how stupid. The other shallow things that you mentio ed in the program such as the polilytheism and God men theory . men you are an ignorant arent ' you those lies of you for ignoring the lds doctri e wll send you to hour hell for false testimony.
I say therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if you believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins. It is actually God the Father that testifies that Jesus is the DIVINE SON of GOD. Some mormons are nice people -- politically I found that I had a lot in common with a mormon that I spoke to, but spiritually, not at all. Joseph Smith was a freemason (a witch), and there are rituals and self-curses in freemasonry. The mormon husband next door to me had a bad T-bone car accident that could have killed him. My wife's mormon friend's husband was later involved in a serious car accident. Dirty spirits are used to fulfill the curses of idolatry and witchcraft down through the generations as a "enslavement to sin". Only by meeting the Lord God Jesus Christ and repenting and breaking those generational curses can one be set free of those curses. Making a false representation of Jesus Christ and his Eternal Covenant (New Testament) is clear violation of the first and second laws. Go back to the laws of God in the Bible, and you will see where Joseph Smith diverges from God. "The knowledge of the law is a sound (good) mind". The laws of God in the Bible are a super-power discerner of creatures, but only knowing the Lord God Jesus Christ can give you a new, eternal life. Make sure you have BOTH.
Also, if you're looking for a Mormon to Christian dictionary, check out hotm dot tv and I think they have it in their store and I think Family Christian carries them now too. It compares the Biblical definition to the Mormon definition on literally everything from grace & faith to salvation and works. It's wonderful if you are witnessing to the young men that come to your door, tons of information and if you're like me, you'll learn a lot about Christianity along the way too.
Amen, it is through faith that we are saved. It's unfortunate that these Mormons, and Jahovas witniss are so mislead by doctrines of demons. Paul states which is one of the scriptures I've used trying to discuss true salvation through Jesus is that if anyone comes to you with a different doctrine then what we preached of Jesus crucified to take away the sins of the world do not receive them. For it is a false doctrine.
Whatever dude, it's a really interesting movie to watch though even if you're not a Christian. Documentaries about the Holocaust usually are
If they are saved in the future, they are, from G-d's perspective, saved *now*. So perhaps it is an indication of blessing somehow rather than from real evil..
Asking if a Mormon or anyone else is a Christian is the wrong question. The question is whether a Mormon is saved in Christ and a new creation. First of all we have to define who Christ is and if your definition is that he is the Archangel, Michael, or the spirit brother of Lucifer, as some others say, then the answer is no they are not in Christ since that definition is of someone that doesn't exist and could not have shed his blood to wash your sin nature away.
...and to think that they had the gall to make you sit thru the whole thing.
Really, I thought that's all atheists did. I hear about it constantly.
Great video
tclmente, it really depends on what they've done with the person of Jesus Christ. Catholicism is a works-based system as well along with every other religion outside of biblical Christianity. Many of Catholic practices do not run congruent with biblical teachings. See CARM(dot)org and search Catholicism
God bless you for trying to spread the faith. Sleepwalker seems to be unwilling despite your earnest recommendation. I will watch it instead, it sounds really interesting.
James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Are all that profess to be christian born again?
You did not ask anything.
Jesus' command to "be perfect", is attainable or He wouldn't have said it! BTW, I'm not Mormon.
Have you reached perfection yet?
HERMENEUTICS. Christ imputed righteousness is the perfection.
@@bryanpratt5850 I have been made perfect by the blood of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:14
Who is a better person? I don't know Bill Gates but i would think he is a better person than Hitler as far as helping people most definitely. However, being saved and doing good works are two separate things. Bill does good works but he is not saved.
No, I do not believe anyone should be made unable to express themselves. Even if that message is something loathe with a passion. I know you disagree with me but i take it you don't wish to mark my comments as spam either. So we have commonground! Very little commonground but its something Lol.
theres so many people that are so ignorant. everyone has a conscience which God puts in everyone so no one has a an excuse! no one is innocent evreryone is guilty before a just God. no wotks can save you onlytrust and faith in Jesus Christ! God is sooooo good!!!!
Most kids don't have to do anything to receive a birthday gift & many parents who give them are nowhere near as good as God. A birthday gift shouldn't have to be earned & neither should grace. A good father wants his kids to work to receive rewards, learn things & help others. But he wouldn't say if they don't do the right amount of it he'll be glad about them being in hell forever. Whether you believe in Heavenly Father of the LDS myths or the Bible's they are definitely 2 very different Gods.
Christianity and the Bible teaches monotheism, that there is one God and was only and will ever be one God. Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I AM He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me”
Mormonism and their prophet Joseph teaches that you will one day be god’s and that the church has failed to prevail because Joseph claimed it had. When clearly Jesus tells us “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”
WHICH IS INTERESTING BC that’s the first lie was ever told... by ya know Satan..when the serpent told eve “you will be like gods” and that God was lying. Just saying sounds awful familiar.
It also teaches that Satan is the spirit brother of Jesus. Which is impossible because Satan was and angel and is creation. Jesus is not. John 1:3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
Even without fact the Mormons church does not follow the teaching of Christ or the Bible as a whole, Christianity is monotheistic and Mormonism is Polytheistic.
Haha. It is quite interesting to see Christians try to convince other Christians that they’re not Christians. Even Paul had disagreements with Peter, that doesn’t mean that one is better then the other. They both point to Christ. It is a fools errand, like unto the arguments between the sadducees and the Pharisees, to argue among churches who sincerely believe in The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Good point, but Mormons deny some essential Christian doctrines. How do we accept them as true Christians if they add false narratives into the Bible and deny some essential doctrines? Thankfully, I think the majority of Mormons aren't extreme in their beliefs, and I think we would be surprised at how much they are like us. It's just so sad because they really try to live morally. :( What do you think?
JB BlenderBreakdown they don’t deny any scripture. The Pharisees claimed the Sadducees denied essential doctrine and they both rejected the truth. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, Jesus said. Anyone who says Mormons aren’t Christians are lying, whether they know it or not.
@@benbuietv Well, the Mormons:
#1 deny the scriptural doctrine of the trinity and the true deity of Christ
#2 teach that there is more than one God
#3 teach that God the Father is literally an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bones
#4 teach that human beings can become gods themselves
#5 teach that Jesus was through physical, sexual union between God the Father and Mary
#6 teach that eternal life is attained by a person's works and not by grace alone.
(These are points listed from "Reasoning From The Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes)
The question undoubtedly is: are these essential doctrines? I believe they are. But we also have to keep in mind that these points listed are the strictest Mormon doctrines. They are not necessarily being followed by most Mormons. However, if they deny essential doctrines, than they are not Christians but a cult. (btw, thx for sharing this with me.)
JB BlenderBreakdown #1 the concept of Trinity is not founded in Scripture. I’ll agree that it is hinted at, but it is founded on the nicean creed. #2 they don’t believe there is more than one God for us. #3 this it’s not refuted in scripture #4 the scriptures teach we will be joint heirs with Christ. #5 this is false. #6 they side with James on this one, not Paul. JB, these are not essential doctrines! :) these are petty disagreements that arise from gaps in scripture. Mainstream Christians need to realize that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are some of their most passionate friends allies. Feel free to disagree with them, but vilifying them and lying about them needs to stop. :)
@@benbuietv I understand what you're saying. Christians need to start acting like who they say they are and measure a person not by their beliefs but by their heart. Christians and Mormons may disagree with each other on some points, but we should overlook those and see each other as fellow human beings made in the image of God. As I said, I know of several Mormons that are truly amazing individuals. I apologize if it appeared that I was attacking Mormons, I was only trying to figure them out. Anyway, I sincerely appreciate you discussing this with me. God Bless!!! :-)
Is that a possibility, well yes. Even a serial killer if he truly is earnest and genuine can be forgiven if he or she accepts Christ. I would argue once you are born again and the Holy spirit is in you then such sin is not even a consideration.
I commend your faith. Yes their are so many souls to be won. The government is not ideal but the opportunities for giving people faith are innumerable. Do you like living there?
will we see only Trinitarian in heaven? if not, does doctrines matter or does Jesus matter? some people hold doctrines higher then Jesus. why do people do that? it's only Jesus that matter not Jesus and doctrines. Only Jesus! Is he not enough or do we have to tag some else on? :)
Ray, we need you in Utah.
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, started in the PRE-MORTAL LIFE; And it will be, for time & for all, Eternity.
Can someone answer my question please? I sincerely want to know how this works. Here it is: Do you believe that YOU have a choice in regards to your salvation? It sounds like a simple question, but it's not. Please answer. :)
Hey Owen,
Nice to read a sincere question for once. The thing is a salvation is a free gift because Christ paid for it when he died on the cross for our sins so we no longer have to face the wrath of God but rather delight in him and spend an eternity with Him in Heaven. But in regards to CHOOSING this is the best way I can put it: NO ONE chooses Christ, its ONLY through the grace of God that we are saved. This is because like in Romans 8:7, our mind is set on things of the flesh and because we LOVE the darkness and love to sin, we CANNOT submit to God's law and therefore we cannot please God. However we are held accountable because through the creation of the world and other things we KNOW God exists for we CLEARLY see his invisible qualities like his eternal power & divine nature Therefore we are WITHOUT excuse (Romans 1:20). The reason we are going to be held accountable is because it's not a PHYSICALLy incapable but MORALLY incapable 1 Corinthains 2:14. We are SPIRITUALLY discerned, That's why for BABIES or the MENTAL CHALLENGED they have an excuse for not accepting God-they really couldn't even if they WANTED to. But for the rest of us we CHOOSE to deny God because we WANT to continue in the darkness (John 3:19)
Sorry, I know it's long but just know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for YOUR sins so you can LEAVE the darkness and COME INTO the light and delight in God and spend eternity with Him. Just repent and turn to God, so he can give you a new birth (born again) so you are then ABLE to see the beauty of God and his grace, mercy, forgiveness, and Love and fulfill His will for your life (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Hope I helped, stay blessed!
Tabitha Kole Thank you for taking the time to reply. While I do believe that there is nothing we can do to "earn" our salvation (Christ paid justice in full for our sins and resurrection), I don't understand when people say there is "nothing" we can do to be saved. As you said: " we CHOOSE to deny God because we WANT to continue in the darkness." Okay- that means we CAN do SOMETHING (accept or reject God's grace). CHOOSING to deny God is the opposite of CHOOSING to accept him. But then they turn around and say-"No, no, that's actually God 'drawing unto you' or influencing you. You don't have to do anything."
The problem I have with all of that is, does this mean we are forced into salvation = God will choose who he does and does not save ("NO ONE chooses Christ", as you said)? Or do we choose to accept His free gift, thus we can do "something" to be saved, even if it is God reaching out to us initially (of course I get that part).
But the way people describe it makes it sound like we go on auto-pilot and turn into robots once God decides we are to be saved. Do "nothing" God is in control now. See what I mean? Hope that isn't confusing.
Robert Owen I like your question. But this is where FREE WILL comes in. Jesus died on the cross WANTING everyone to be saved but he KNOWS they won't all be because like said before we like the darkness rather than light. But God won't FORCE anyone into his presence, so if you don't accept his free gift of salvation now and repent and turn to him, then you won't be able to spend eternity with him in Heaven because you didn't choose him while you were here on earth (John 1:12, John 3:17). Like said in John 12:36: "Put your trust in the light WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME".
God already knows those that are going to accept him into their hearts and those that are going to deny him, ultimately leading themselves on a path of eternal destruction. This is the way I like to see it:
One day we ALL have to take a test, there are NO classes or courses to take that will help you pass, just ONE book with all the answers you'll ever need in order to pass. But there are those that CHOOSE and refuse not to read the book, so therefore they are PREDESTINED to fail the test but for those that CHOOSE to read the book (willingly) therefore they are PREDESTINED to pass the test. So for those that CHOOSE to ACCEPT the GRACE of God in order to be saved they are predestined to live in eternity with him for they acknowledged that WITHOUT the grace they couldn't be saved and please God (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:28-30). We did NOTHING to earn that grace per se, it was given to us as a free gift..who turns down a free gift? Not me lol :)
Happy Easter!
Tabitha Kole Thank you for your time! I'm actually having this same discussion in the comments section. Perhaps you can give me a more clear answer or example on how free will and predestination work together?
I will post some of my reply below:
Christians tell me I am not saved and that I believe in a false Jesus. Then they say I need to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior (John 3:16, Mark 16:16). THEN, and this is the part that makes my brain hurt, ....THEN they say there is "nothing" I can do to be saved (Ephesians 2: 8-9).
Er, what? Come again? Isn't BELIEVING IN CHRIST doing something? Do you see the frustration I have here. It doesn't make sense, no matter how many scriptures you throw at the issue, it doesn't make sense to have free-will, and then to NOT have a choice (pre-destination).
What would you like for dinner tonight? Spaghetti with meatballs, OR meatballs with spaghetti? Come on now, you have a choice to make.
First you say we have free will: "we aren't saying that we don't have free-will. We do." Then you say we are predestined: "If you could convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was wrong about predestination..."
Do you understand, truly what predestination means? It means that you do NOT have a choice, a say, any consent whatsoever. It doesn't matter what you do or do not do- your destiny, your fate, is FIXED.
If you think predestination means God knows eventually what you are going to choose, then that is not predestination, that is foreknowledge and yes, I agree that God knows what we will decide, but WE don't know- hence, the freedom to choose.
I have a major issue with predestination because it makes life pointless. Nothing we do here will make a difference if we have no choice, no free-will.
These two concepts cannot be reconciled. You have tried, much to your credit, but free-will and pre-destiny cannot exist in the same universe.
Please explain to me, if you can, how we can do nothing to be saved, but we have to do something "believe in Christ." Maybe that's what you've been trying to do, but it's not clear to someone who views something and nothing as completely different concepts.
In relations to John chapter 6. I do think it's interesting how I can read the same chapter and pull out all of the references to free will: "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Sounds like a choice to me.
"every one that seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:" Again, believing is a choice we can make, is it not? If we can chose to "not believe" as you stated earlier, then it stands to reason that we can chose "to believe."
Here is the very definition of choice: "the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities" -Merriam Webster Dictionary
If we make a choice (free will) and the outcome is the same (predestination) then it isn't free-will at all, but merely predestination masquerading as free-will.
Again, do you want apple juice, or juice made from apples? It may be re-worded, but it's the same dang thing.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. You don't have to do anything, that is, "nothing" to be saved. Different actions, with the same outcome?
You will go to hell if you don't repent. Hey, even though you repented and stuff, you're still destined for hell. Predestination is a rough gig, huh?
I don't know how to be more clear on why these two concepts: free will and predestination, have no place working together. But perhaps there is something, some scripture, or some example you can share, that debunks my thought process.
Best of luck. And thanks again.
I truly appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thank you. The truth is many Christians confuse "being saved by grace" with "doing nothing".
We can NOT save ourselves thus we are saved by Gods grace. Yet Christ has taught us through His words and life what we must DO.
The doctrine of salvation through faith alone, sometimes called solafidianism, is not a biblical doctrine: there are no instances in the New Testament of the phrases "grace alone" or "faith alone." The philosopher-theologian Frederick Sontag argues that Jesus himself was interested not in words, and not even in theological dogma, but in action: For the Jesus in Matthew, he says, "Action is more important than definition. "Richard Lloyd Anderson shows that even in Paul's major treatments of the doctrine of grace, particularly in Romans and Ephesians, there is a balancing element of works as well. Other New Testament writers, most notably James, make it clear that saving faith can only be recognized through works: "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17.)
Galatians 1:6-9
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The one thing you got right in this interview is when you told the guy that "when you're a Christian you'll be a fruit" Christians debating Mormons is like two people arguing over who has the better imaginary friend.
confession believing JESUS is not 100% the truth
you can confess JESUS as your LORD but not teaching his WORD and instead teaching mans teaching! nope!
Mormons are not Christians......
Please get your facts in order before you mislead people on what others believe. Ray Comfort gets to decide who is Christian and who is not? Give me a break. There are so many different Christian sects with different beleifs and understandings.
In almost every segment where you state what mormons believe you are not fully accurate.
Gods - We believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Yes we believe that someday, we can become like him. We hope to one day become kings and queens, priests and priesteses unto the most high God. The bible says there is one God. Yet we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and still call them one.
God's body - Is Jesus Christ not God? Was he not ressurected with a perfect body? If God does not have a body, did Jesus loose his? Maybe he dicided he actually does not want the scars in his hands any more that he showed to his apostales? Did Jesus pray to him self? While he hung on the cross, was he talking to himself when he asked his father to forgive the Romans? When he told Mary not to touch him after his death because he had not yet ascended to his father, did he not ascend to himself?! Come on now.
Gospel - Our deffinition is exactly the same as yours. It is the good news of Jesus Christ and his saccrifice for us.
Heaven - The celestial kingom is not for PERFECT mormons. There is no such thing. No man besides Jesus was perfect. What you called the third heaven, is not what we call heaven. The 3 degrees of glory (celestial, terestrial and telestial) are not all heaven. The father and son do not dwell in the telestial kingdom, hence it is not their home (heaven).
Hell - You are mixing up our beleif in spirit prison (a temporary location for spirits of men who have not yet converted or will not. This is where they go until the day of judgement). We believe that if you choose not to accept Jesus's sacrifice for your sins, you will have to pay for yours sins your self. This does not mean after you have paid the price for sin your self that you will go to heaven with everyone else. You will then inherit the telesital kingdom. Even King David from the bible rejoiced in the knowledge that God would not leave him in hell for eternity.
@Da Jen our fight is for The faith. We are. To contend for the faith.The faith our Jesus Christ.
This is why Mormons are likened to Bee's (i.e. "worker bees" - working/deserving their salvation).
They do indeed work, but no one is that perfect. No one is deserving of salvation. No one is righteous not one. That is why we all need grace.
@@inChristalone1960 True. Grace is a gift. So, I'm suppose to just accept Jesus with no effort? Or am I suppose to have faith and repent? I don't understand.
@@Bob-fh3yk The scripture " work out your salvation with fear and trembling "
This is working out a salvation you have already been graced with. Therefore you work it with the help of the Lord. But this is a joy to honor and walk in His ways.
I hope that helps.
@@inChristalone1960 So it does take work! The way it's worded makes it sound like, the gift is there all you have to do is accept it. I've seen a lot of Christians not working out their salvation because they've accepted Christ already.
The way I see it, God has already done His part in the bargain, to keep our end of the bargain we need to live the commandments, be obedient to the laws, follow Christ the best we can etc...
@@Bob-fh3yk This makes sense to me. I want to respond to the spirit when l feel it , l want to respond to the scriptures that move me.. like a two way conversation with God. I know however , that only Christ can cover my many sins and shortcomings. My actions toward God
Can't save me. l do this because l love Him...and every day l see that l want to live all of His commandments. ....each very one. Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is Perfect. ❤ love.