To be fair to Melbourne it's quite rare to have auto and manual trains together on the same line so they should at least be congratulated for that. As a rail worker myself seeing black signals is very odd! Like the soul of the railway is dead. Dramatic i suppose 😂
Seems like an unnecessary and dangerous gimmick. It's like the team that made this decision don't ever leave their office to see what trains do. Let's hope no one has to front up to the coroner's court to explain.
Yes I think it is quite an achievement. Basically it works, but as I said, some fine tuning is still needed. Yes, black signals are against everything we expect from signalling.
10:33 A good demonstration that it’s not just the “next” signal that goes dark when “enabling” CBTC and that a whole series of the turn off at once rather than just the current one (and possibly just the next one doing so).
The thing that annoys me on Cranbourne, Pakenham trains is the announcement at South Yarra. They should tell you that you can change here if you wish to use Toorak, Armidale or Hawkesburn stations. I think you should change at South Yarra for Frankston line too instead of waiting until Caulfield.
Both stations are clumsy for changing trains but if you wait until Caulfield you will have the express run Malvern to Caulfield so may end up catching a Frankston train missed at South Yarra. When you first got on the train you should have already seen the station indicator missing those few intermediate stations.
@@tressteleg1yes saving those 3 minutes can be important but travelers should be given the choice. re your point on first getting on - why have the announcements at all then.
@@ianmontgomery7534 Unfortunately most transport operators seem to assume that out in the suburbs at least, everybody is a regular and should know all the little tricks. As for having announcements, the long winded ones can be any irritation but they probably realise that half of the people are only partly paying attention at any time. And hardly anyone listens to the announcements anyway with noses buried in phones.
@@tressteleg1 yeah they assume a lot. I still love some of the silly announcements -like a Flinders st train that will stop all stations to Richmond or a Yarraman one that will stop all stations to Dandenong!
@@ianmontgomery7534 Seems like they rely too much on the computer compiling the consecutive announcements. My local Gold Coast tram has irrelevant announcements such as telling you to cross the road safely at the marked crossing at every stop, even when there isn’t any.
Hi. In many cities in germany the metro (S bahn) have been upgraded to automatic systems. Munich, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Cologne and Hamburg are planing to have all lines with a automatic system. The only thing is, the money isn't there yet😉
That is the problem everywhere - not enough money. These systems coast a lot of money largely just to get rid of drivers. To me, they are about as exciting as an elevator in a tall building.
@tressteleg1 Paris here 👋🏼 90% of the metro network in Paris has some sort of autopilot, it started in the 1950's and the systems are now GoA2 or 2.5 and 4. "PA" for "pilotage automatique" is the original one, now replaced by OCTYS and OURAGAN, both CBTC, for grade 2 lines, plus SAET and SAET NG on the full UTO grade 4+ lines. Recently, two of the oldest and busiest lines, M1 opened in 1900 and M4 opened in 1908, were converted to full GoA4+ unattended high frequency operations with platform screen doors, like M14 which was built as GoA4 and opened in 1998. It's life changing... Service can massively increase in a matter of minutes and isn't affected by driver shortages, shift schedules, etc. Line conversions to UTO capable systems and infrastructure are costly, but then line operations become much cheaper and much better. You can run the line at 42 or 44 trains per hour per track for pretty much the same cost as half the frequency. (And even 59 trains per hour per track in Lille, Rennes or Toulouse VAL metro systems, it's an endless noria). If you have a big concert or sports game in a huge arena that is taking longer than anticipated : no problem, the line's gonna adapt and send the fleet of trains at the right time where they're needed, even if it's one hour later than usual. No problem either if rush hour takes longer than usual or if an unplanned event brings crowds somewhere : the line's "tower" sends the right number of trains to carry these crowds. Same for Christmas, new year's night, etc. And as a passenger, you can sit in front to have a driver's view, which is loved by everyone, from kids to seniors. Plus, no more track incursions, no more slow platform entries... trains can enter the platform speeding, which saves time. The full automation has changed the lives of the people using these lines every day. Drivers were "recycled" to other lines, or as roaming agents or as line oversight agents. In this day and age, recruiting drivers is very difficult and costly, so automation helps a lot. As for automated operations with a driver and without platform screen doors, it still is a major step up in reliability and schedule consistency. RER A, for example, wouldn't be able to carry 1 and a half million passengers daily without the advanced signaling system and autopilot, though they kept drivers in cabs. RER A uses the famous SACEM system that was developed by GEC Alsthom and Matra (now Siemens Mobility) in the late 80's for the RER and which now also equips lines of the Santiago Metro, Hong Kong's MTR , Mexico City Metro and Shanghai Metro. RER A's SACEM was upgraded with an ATO autopilot in 2017. The SACEM system enables one of the few holy grails of train nerds : seeing a train entering the station while the previous one is leaving but hasn't cleared the platform, with only a few dozen meters between them. M13 will be the next "historical" metro line to be converted to full automation grade 4, though it was equipped with platform screen doors years ago to help cope with constant overcrowding. M11 should follow with M7 and at least a couple others. IDFM, the Paris region transit authority, is conducting studies to reduce the time (and cost) it takes to convert lines and to streamline the process in order to convert several lines simultaneously. All line conversions were done without major interruptions by working at night and only closing some weekends, or st worst some rare days during the lowest periods of the year. All 4 entirely new lines of the Grand Paris Express humongous expansion project will also be fully automated at grade 4+. The first and South section of M15, the giant loop line, is set to open in the last trimester of 2025. If I recall correctly, of the 4 new lines, M15, 16, and 17 will use a SAET NG derived system and M18 will use Alstom Urbalis Fluence and Iconis systems to control the 220 passenger trains, including 133 only for M15, plus the 30 technical trains for infrastructure maintenance that will also be automated. All new trains ordered for the historical lines must now be GoA4 capable even if they are equipped with a cab (removable or convertible) and if they run on a GoA2 line, as the goal is to eventually convert (nearly) all lines to full grade 4 automation. Manual or semi-automated operations for such complex and high frequency lines would simply be a nightmare, requiring massive crews working in perfect synchronization and harmony, which has an extremely high operational cost and severely weakens reliability. A single mistake or delay and the house of cards collapses, whereas automated systems are far more robust and adaptive. There's a new extension of RER E to the West that's expected to open in May or June, it will coincide with the switch of the entire central section to a new CBTC centralized remote autopilot system called NExTEO. It is a newer and more robust GoA2 system to substantially increase frequency. I just can't wait! Earlier this year in February, M14 switched to its new upgraded system, SAET NG, to go with its major extension that's opening in late June and capable of handling the entire fleet of trains with an average 80 second frequency during peak. It's like a virtual octopus controlling 65 trains, sometimes only meters away from each other, it's really mesmerizing. I really don't see why you'd find automated lines uninteresting, they are fantastic for service reliability and improve the life of the passengers relying on them daily. Also, their operations are quite fascinating to watch, especially during rush hour when it becomes an experience in itself, like a fine tuned orchestra perfectly performing a complex concerto on a rocking ship, always adapting on the spot to the conditions. Automation has been well implemented in France for decades : all of the 6 metro networks in the country are either totally or partially equipped with GoA4 lines. (Marseille was the only metro network with only manned lines but is converting to full grade 4 automation). Automation is so efficient that SNCF Réseau (the French national rail infrastructure manager) is currently working on the implementation of a NExTEO derived CBTC centralized remote autopilot system on high-speed lines for HSR trains running at full speed. The goal is to reduce frequency spacing below 3 minutes on HSL (the current minimum high-speed spacing during rush hour) and thus gain an extra 1 to 4 trains per hour in capacity per track on already saturated high-speed lines. Automated operations are the present and future of rail. Humans can't and shouldn't compete on that, as the controlled environment of a rail line is where automated systems excel and far outperform human operations. Sure, the job of TGV drivers will be less interesting during rush hours, as they'll mostly watch over a computer driven train, but this will enable 1500 to 6000 extra passengers per hour per direction. Who can be against that? In an era of climate urgency, increasing rail capacity and improving reliability is paramount. And, believe me, watching automated trains getting very close, yet safely, to each other, is quite fascinating and entertaining. Here, even the strongest and harshest unions aren't protesting much about automation, because they know how good, efficient and necessary it is and how much the public likes it. When they do protest, they ask for the creation of extra roaming agents' jobs to patrol the driverless trains, but don't protest against automation itself. Sorry for the novel length comment, but the subject of automated rail systems is so rich that I had a hard time limiting myself. 😅 Great video by the way. Greetings from Paris.
@@KyrilPG I’m pleased that you enjoyed watching this video and appreciate all the effort you put into writing your very comprehensive response. Hopefully some other viewers will read all that you wrote. I suppose we should expect modern Metros in Europe and elsewhere to be automated especially in view of the heavy loadings they carry. Despite Sydney and Melbourne having 5 to 6,000,000 inhabitants, public transport usage is comparatively low with the vast majority preferring to drive to work. Separately I will send you a TV news report dealing with this project and it said that a train frequency of up to 3 minutes will be possible, which is sure to make you laugh. Nevertheless in reality, that is all that is needed, and also because since Covid, public transport usage in general is down probably between 10 and 20% compared with previously simply because many workers are working from home at least some of the time. Your comment about a train moving into a station as the one in front is still running along the station proves what I suspected - that a “movable block” type signal system is in use. Some people queried why the signals are turned off when a CBTC train comes along and I replied that with the “movable block“ in use, there would be times when the in - cab signal could show green with the lineside signal red. Sydney has one specially built Metro line running which is being extended at the moment while another one or two are in early stages of construction. Incidentally I visited Paris a few times between 1975 and at the latest 1992 and took at least some video of the Metro and possibly the first modern Tramway between Saint Dennis and Bobigny. I don’t know if that’s likely to be of any interest.
@@tressteleg1 Yeah sorry I got really carried away as I coincidentally was writing a note simultaneously about automation and the major transportation developments in Paris for a collaborative project that may end up being integrated into a script. I'm a transit and urbanism nerd, so I also follow quite closely the transit expansions in Sydney and Melbourne, even if I haven't ever set foot down under yet. I've watched the "Mega Metro Sydney" episodes, etc. But I must say that I was a bit baffled by the ridership numbers that I've found for the first Sydney Metro section in service : 55k daily. Last Friday I went to the opening of a 3.2 kilometer long extension of the Paris T3b circular tram line. And the daily ridership forecast for just this rather small tram extension is roughly equivalent to the current ridership of Sydney Metro's existing section. Not even counting the fact that ridership forecasts in Paris always tend to be grossly underestimated. I really hope that ridership will eventually rise with the opening of the next sections, the lines look great. Plus, they're like the Aussie cousin of the Grand Paris Express (that will use Alstom Metropolis trains too). I've also tried to follow the saga of Melbourne's suburban rail loop project, and I'm rather shocked by the cost and schedule. It seems like Australia is suffering from the same infrastructure development "ailment" as other developed English speaking countries. But the project is interesting, it can be great. Though, the fact that Sydney Metro chose full GoA4 automation is a good news as, just like in the US, Canada or UK, there's always more capital funding than operational one, and GoA4 UTO helps a lot in this configuration because it's substantially cheaper to operate at great frequency. In the video you gave me (thanks by the way), the guy that says that to attract ridership, "you need frequency, plus frequency, and frequency" is absolutely right ! Higher frequency is a ridership magnet. Network operators should never succumb to reducing frequency because of lower than expected ridership. Because it will drive a downward spiral. As for the train entering the station while the previous one hasn't cleared the platform yet : it was already the case 30 years ago. So, if memory serves, it's more of a block subdivision with permeable or permissive block, or a deformable one, than a movable block per se (at least with the original version of SACEM) but don't quote me on that. Because SACEM was deployed in 1989, a decade before CBTC was formally standardized, and I believe that SACEM was originally track and rail transmitted. It now probably is a mix of movable adaptative block, block subdivision and permeable or permissive block with the new ATO upgraded version. In RER A, the SACEM displays a specific signal on the side of tracks, a "canceling" X, if I recall correctly, that nullifies trackside signals. Ah ah, the good old Alstom TFS rolling stock from the T1 tram line...! They are still running... Shacking and rattling like a fork drawer, badly ventilated and even worse climatised. Many will be happy to see the back of them. They've really done their time and will be replaced very soon by 100% low floor latest generation Alstom Citadis X05 trams, increasing only a bit their length from 29.4 to 33 meters. They'll only enlarge in width by 10 centimeters... They are supposed to look like a narrower and shorter version of the much larger and fancy Citadis X05 or 405 that run on T9 and T10 (real eye candy for tram lovers those ones, especially at night with their lighting). Everyone already knows that these new slightly longer 5 element trams won't be able to cope with the crowds and that it needed at least a wider (2.65m) and much larger 7 element 45 meter long variant. What infuriates me is that they've spent on extending the station platforms from 24 to 30 meters, just to cover the doors, instead of at least trying to stretch them to 45 meters. It's one of the busiest lines, and will only continue to grow, but hey, it's the poorest sector of Paris and old habits of suboptimal equipment really die hard.... Since your visit in 1992, there are now 14 tram lines, including 3 express lines and totalling nearly 190km, with plenty of planned extensions. A dozen of these lines opened in the last decade and a half or so. Lines T3a and T3b form a 85% complete loop around Paris core, with the missing gap located in the super wealthy 16th district, what a surprise... 🤣 (It's SUV land and high end car dealers that line the boulevards fear that the tram may hurt their bottom line). T1 was already extended several times and there are major extensions planned. It currently is 18km long and is expected to more than double in length. As with the original T1 tram, all subsequent tram lines in Paris are either orbital / tangential lines or radial in the suburbs and are not all interconnected as they are an additional layer in the transit network, providing great connectivity with metro and RER lines. Gosh, I did it again... another comment-novel. 😉
Nice sleuthing work! I've noticed that the door alignment to the exit gates has been very repeatable at Huntingdale recently. I have 2 questions: 1. Where did you get the date 10/6/2025? 2. Where did you get the date 31/7/2123?
Thanks. Yes precise stopping is what is required, although there are apparently some bugs with that at some places anyway. 10/6/25 came from my driver friend who would not give me something if it was not accurate at the time. The other date was a typo from an official document.
Theoretically CBTC system doesn’t need lights, driver just need to follow the in-cab signal, but in practice lights are maintained for backup and extra protections. Some systems configure the lights to be constantly off, the lights will only on if needed, which I think it’s the case of the Melbourne one. I honestly think this setting could bring issues for driver to identify the status correctly.
In practice it doesn’t need lights. The new tunnel won’t have any. That’s why they are turned off when a CBTC train comes along. I suspect that in Metro mode trains use what is called moving block signals and if lineside lights are on, there probably would be times when those signals said stop but the in - cab signals said go. Of course the drivers could simply be told to ignore the outside signals, but that would go against the grain of all their training.
I should have also added that the signals are only there because eventually there will still be Vline and freight trains which will need the signals as they will never have CBTC equipment.
There are plenty of automatically operating trains around the world but there can’t be too many mixed operations with signals going on and off as required.
Signals I believe have their own battery supply and they cannot go off unless somebody cuts all the cables. They go to red. A CBTC driver would know his train is configured - he set it - so would expect the lights to be off. All other drivers would expect to see lights and if somehow the system jammed in CBTC mode, would bring the train to a stop and await instructions
A few days ago my driver friend gave me the date and there was no doubt in his message. He is not in the habit of spreading false information - unless it goes wrong and has to be delayed.
@@JamesJackson. I don’t live in Melbourne so I have never followed it that closely, but certainly by then regular test running through the tunnels should be under way in order to be ready for next June.
@@tressteleg1 There was an article published late last year that said that the CEO of the construction company let slip that the tunnel would be open and operational by September this year. I have my doubts, I'm sure your friend has a reliable source of his information and all of the government websites and articles are still saying 2025, but they've been continuously running test trains through the tunnel since July last year so it could be earlier all going well I guess
@Ryzi03 The government is the customer so they have the final say on when it will be ready. The most the constructor can say is that it will be ready for public use in September but that doesn’t mean the government will be ready. As for continuously running Trains, when I was making several trips down the line to get those scenes, I kept an eye on the tunnel mouths at South Yarra and each time I looked the gate was shut. I know that Trains have been to ANZAC Station at least, but I don’t know about any further. No matter what, we will just have to wait until it’s ready.
There is not a lot of difference but the starts and stops did seem a bit harsher. One option that seems to be lacking in auto metros is the ability to coast. That essentially does not seem to happen. It is either braking or accelerating. That’s wasteful of power and a bit more jerky for the riders. If you noticed the train slow down then speed up again on the ride, that is a glitch which has the experts stumped. That is just one of many ‘glitches’ that have caused the system to be switched off for now.
@@tressteleg1 that doesn't seem right when the material I've read about automated Metros indicated that an *advantage* of automation is the computer can calculate the optimum driving profile to minimise energy use as well as vehicle maintenance.
@@BigBlueMan118 Yes that is what they will tell you, but you can’t tell me anything can be more efficient than a long downhill coasting stretch of maybe 1 km. Coasting has always been a feature of train and tram driving. It gives a smoother ride than forever alternating between powering and braking.
@@tressteleg1 I note that modern lines especially underground sections are typically designed with inclines on both sides of a station to assist with braking into and acceleration away from a stop.
@@tressteleg1Interesting.. automated trains in Sydney are pretty smooth in my experience. Haven't noticed any throttle hunting and they seem to be able to run with just a trickle of power applied when appropriate.
@@tressteleg1 Driverless is not the intention due to the entire line not being fitted with CBTC and the line being mixed mode (shared with non-CBTC fitted trains)
@@SuperSimmo88 Sharing sections with non-CBTC trains seems not to be an issue. Drivers of trains in CBTC mode are little more than the passengers themselves. I have yet to get a report from a driver who has ‘driven’ one in regular service.
Well unless you look out the window to see if the signals are on, you would not know if they are off and unless the train is going fairly slowly, you wouldn’t have time to check anyway. But most ordering people wouldn’t give it a thought.
@@tressteleg1 , i think there should be a screen in every cab that shows the line ahead and the path that is chosen, indicating how points are set. this and the automatic in-cab signalling together seems like a big step forward. i'm thinking about how that melbourne to sydney train got thrown unexpectedly into a loop or siding causing it to flop on its side killing the driver.
@@vsvnrg3263 As a tram driver, I was required to check the points myself, as I selected the direction. Railways don’t think like that. Train drivers have a blind faith in whatever the signal box has set up and indicated with signals. I expect that when in CBTC mode, signals for the section ahead are displayed in the cab. There were 2 XPT disasters. The one you mention was because trackwork was happening on the main line and traffic was using the siding to get through. But somewhere there was confusion and the 2 drivers, both of whom died, were given an indication that the traffic was using the main line again, but it was not. The other was at South Brisbane ? January 2011, and fits your suggestion of checking points. Southbound coming off the dual gauge River Bridge entering that station, there was a malfunction in a point blade and instead of the XPT being diverted onto the separate standard gauge track, one point blade did not move and the wheels were forced to go from standard gauge to 3 foot 6, which of course could not happen and the power car and I think one following bogie ended up in the dirt. Low speed, no injuries.
@@tressteleg1 , of course, trains may be going too fast to check points. if that xpt that was fatal had a plain, easy to read screen like most of us (not me ) have in our pocket for street navigation that showed, without fault, what path was ahead, they would have been prepared. i was under the impression they werent told. even if they were told, if it was on a screen in front of them until they had passed the points it could be considered a constant reminder. your second case is another good reason to standardise all gauges across the country. fishplate films says dual gauge points are troublesome.
@@tressteleg1 That would seem to be the thing these days , driver-less trains can't be blamed for any stuff-up's or injuries caused by electronic malfunctions but driver's can be though ; I feel that there'll be a lot of "driver-less" trains being introduced onto the metro rail services over the next 10 or so years as a way to cut down operational costs as it's already happening on the Iron Ore railways in Northern W.A. with autonomous trains already in use up there.
@Locoman3801 According to my driver friend, although initially automation will run as at present and also though the tunnel to the Footscray region, it won’t go any further at this stage. It is very expensive and there is no money at present, whatever the advantages might be.
@@tressteleg1 The new underground stations are fitted with Platform Screen Doors (PSDs). The PSDs have a stopping accuracy requirement of +-150mm for the PSDs to align with the train doors. Ask your driver friend how they would go stopping from 80km/h with that level of accuracy. Some of my test drivers have practiced enough now that they can usually get it, but it is definitely not easy. Headways are being tested at 2mins at 80km/h. But there are some good photos out there showing the trains banking up to be meters apart. On the surface 10m is the minimum separation. This is restricted in the tunnel due to ventilation sections that limit trains stopping and bunching up, but they can still get very close. Full automation will not be possible as the CBTC does not extend to the length of the line. Likewise due to the mixed traffic sharing the lines fitted with CBTC, the signals need to be retained.
@@SuperSimmo88 Certainly having drivers stop with such accuracy would be more than a big ask. However it is believed that some of the reason CBTC stopped for a couple of weeks when that video was published was because train stopping accurately at those doors was not good enough. Presumably and hopefully that was overcome during the shutdown. While testing is showing how close the trains can safely operate, one has to wonder whether, with working from home and greater car use since Covid, 2 minute headways will ever be needed. As for driverless, impractical until the entire line has CBTC, and whether funds for that will ever be available is another unknown. Personally I was quite fascinated the way the signals turned on and off as required, quite an achievement even if in these early days there may have been the occasional glitch.
To be fair to Melbourne it's quite rare to have auto and manual trains together on the same line so they should at least be congratulated for that. As a rail worker myself seeing black signals is very odd! Like the soul of the railway is dead. Dramatic i suppose 😂
Seems like an unnecessary and dangerous gimmick. It's like the team that made this decision don't ever leave their office to see what trains do. Let's hope no one has to front up to the coroner's court to explain.
Yes I think it is quite an achievement. Basically it works, but as I said, some fine tuning is still needed. Yes, black signals are against everything we expect from signalling.
@@user-fed-yum What is dangerous about it? I expect that in cab signals keep the driver informed - while there are still drivers.
@@user-fed-yum As a non-professional it sounds pretty scary. But happy to follow the experts??
@@jack2453 What is scary-sounding? There are automated systems all over the world including in Sydney too.
10:33 A good demonstration that it’s not just the “next” signal that goes dark when “enabling” CBTC and that a whole series of the turn off at once rather than just the current one (and possibly just the next one doing so).
Yes that was interesting to see. I suppose it has set all the way back to the train in front.
The thing that annoys me on Cranbourne, Pakenham trains is the announcement at South Yarra. They should tell you that you can change here if you wish to use Toorak, Armidale or Hawkesburn stations. I think you should change at South Yarra for Frankston line too instead of waiting until Caulfield.
Both stations are clumsy for changing trains but if you wait until Caulfield you will have the express run Malvern to Caulfield so may end up catching a Frankston train missed at South Yarra. When you first got on the train you should have already seen the station indicator missing those few intermediate stations.
@@tressteleg1yes saving those 3 minutes can be important but travelers should be given the choice. re your point on first getting on - why have the announcements at all then.
@@ianmontgomery7534 Unfortunately most transport operators seem to assume that out in the suburbs at least, everybody is a regular and should know all the little tricks. As for having announcements, the long winded ones can be any irritation but they probably realise that half of the people are only partly paying attention at any time. And hardly anyone listens to the announcements anyway with noses buried in phones.
@@tressteleg1 yeah they assume a lot. I still love some of the silly announcements -like a Flinders st train that will stop all stations to Richmond or a Yarraman one that will stop all stations to Dandenong!
@@ianmontgomery7534 Seems like they rely too much on the computer compiling the consecutive announcements. My local Gold Coast tram has irrelevant announcements such as telling you to cross the road safely at the marked crossing at every stop, even when there isn’t any.
Hi. In many cities in germany the metro (S bahn) have been upgraded to automatic systems. Munich, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Cologne and Hamburg are planing to have all lines with a automatic system. The only thing is, the money isn't there yet😉
That is the problem everywhere - not enough money. These systems coast a lot of money largely just to get rid of drivers. To me, they are about as exciting as an elevator in a tall building.
@tressteleg1 Paris here 👋🏼
90% of the metro network in Paris has some sort of autopilot, it started in the 1950's and the systems are now GoA2 or 2.5 and 4.
"PA" for "pilotage automatique" is the original one, now replaced by OCTYS and OURAGAN, both CBTC, for grade 2 lines, plus SAET and SAET NG on the full UTO grade 4+ lines.
Recently, two of the oldest and busiest lines, M1 opened in 1900 and M4 opened in 1908, were converted to full GoA4+ unattended high frequency operations with platform screen doors, like M14 which was built as GoA4 and opened in 1998.
It's life changing... Service can massively increase in a matter of minutes and isn't affected by driver shortages, shift schedules, etc.
Line conversions to UTO capable systems and infrastructure are costly, but then line operations become much cheaper and much better.
You can run the line at 42 or 44 trains per hour per track for pretty much the same cost as half the frequency. (And even 59 trains per hour per track in Lille, Rennes or Toulouse VAL metro systems, it's an endless noria).
If you have a big concert or sports game in a huge arena that is taking longer than anticipated : no problem, the line's gonna adapt and send the fleet of trains at the right time where they're needed, even if it's one hour later than usual.
No problem either if rush hour takes longer than usual or if an unplanned event brings crowds somewhere : the line's "tower" sends the right number of trains to carry these crowds.
Same for Christmas, new year's night, etc.
And as a passenger, you can sit in front to have a driver's view, which is loved by everyone, from kids to seniors.
Plus, no more track incursions, no more slow platform entries... trains can enter the platform speeding, which saves time.
The full automation has changed the lives of the people using these lines every day.
Drivers were "recycled" to other lines, or as roaming agents or as line oversight agents.
In this day and age, recruiting drivers is very difficult and costly, so automation helps a lot.
As for automated operations with a driver and without platform screen doors, it still is a major step up in reliability and schedule consistency.
RER A, for example, wouldn't be able to carry 1 and a half million passengers daily without the advanced signaling system and autopilot, though they kept drivers in cabs.
RER A uses the famous SACEM system that was developed by GEC Alsthom and Matra (now Siemens Mobility) in the late 80's for the RER and which now also equips lines of the Santiago Metro, Hong Kong's MTR , Mexico City Metro and Shanghai Metro.
RER A's SACEM was upgraded with an ATO autopilot in 2017. The SACEM system enables one of the few holy grails of train nerds : seeing a train entering the station while the previous one is leaving but hasn't cleared the platform, with only a few dozen meters between them.
M13 will be the next "historical" metro line to be converted to full automation grade 4, though it was equipped with platform screen doors years ago to help cope with constant overcrowding.
M11 should follow with M7 and at least a couple others.
IDFM, the Paris region transit authority, is conducting studies to reduce the time (and cost) it takes to convert lines and to streamline the process in order to convert several lines simultaneously.
All line conversions were done without major interruptions by working at night and only closing some weekends, or st worst some rare days during the lowest periods of the year.
All 4 entirely new lines of the Grand Paris Express humongous expansion project will also be fully automated at grade 4+. The first and South section of M15, the giant loop line, is set to open in the last trimester of 2025.
If I recall correctly, of the 4 new lines, M15, 16, and 17 will use a SAET NG derived system and M18 will use Alstom Urbalis Fluence and Iconis systems to control the 220 passenger trains, including 133 only for M15, plus the 30 technical trains for infrastructure maintenance that will also be automated.
All new trains ordered for the historical lines must now be GoA4 capable even if they are equipped with a cab (removable or convertible) and if they run on a GoA2 line, as the goal is to eventually convert (nearly) all lines to full grade 4 automation.
Manual or semi-automated operations for such complex and high frequency lines would simply be a nightmare, requiring massive crews working in perfect synchronization and harmony, which has an extremely high operational cost and severely weakens reliability. A single mistake or delay and the house of cards collapses, whereas automated systems are far more robust and adaptive.
There's a new extension of RER E to the West that's expected to open in May or June, it will coincide with the switch of the entire central section to a new CBTC centralized remote autopilot system called NExTEO. It is a newer and more robust GoA2 system to substantially increase frequency.
I just can't wait!
Earlier this year in February, M14 switched to its new upgraded system, SAET NG, to go with its major extension that's opening in late June and capable of handling the entire fleet of trains with an average 80 second frequency during peak.
It's like a virtual octopus controlling 65 trains, sometimes only meters away from each other, it's really mesmerizing.
I really don't see why you'd find automated lines uninteresting, they are fantastic for service reliability and improve the life of the passengers relying on them daily. Also, their operations are quite fascinating to watch, especially during rush hour when it becomes an experience in itself, like a fine tuned orchestra perfectly performing a complex concerto on a rocking ship, always adapting on the spot to the conditions.
Automation has been well implemented in France for decades : all of the 6 metro networks in the country are either totally or partially equipped with GoA4 lines. (Marseille was the only metro network with only manned lines but is converting to full grade 4 automation).
Automation is so efficient that SNCF Réseau (the French national rail infrastructure manager) is currently working on the implementation of a NExTEO derived CBTC centralized remote autopilot system on high-speed lines for HSR trains running at full speed. The goal is to reduce frequency spacing below 3 minutes on HSL (the current minimum high-speed spacing during rush hour) and thus gain an extra 1 to 4 trains per hour in capacity per track on already saturated high-speed lines.
Automated operations are the present and future of rail. Humans can't and shouldn't compete on that, as the controlled environment of a rail line is where automated systems excel and far outperform human operations.
Sure, the job of TGV drivers will be less interesting during rush hours, as they'll mostly watch over a computer driven train, but this will enable 1500 to 6000 extra passengers per hour per direction. Who can be against that?
In an era of climate urgency, increasing rail capacity and improving reliability is paramount.
And, believe me, watching automated trains getting very close, yet safely, to each other, is quite fascinating and entertaining.
Here, even the strongest and harshest unions aren't protesting much about automation, because they know how good, efficient and necessary it is and how much the public likes it. When they do protest, they ask for the creation of extra roaming agents' jobs to patrol the driverless trains, but don't protest against automation itself.
Sorry for the novel length comment, but the subject of automated rail systems is so rich that I had a hard time limiting myself. 😅
Great video by the way.
Greetings from Paris.
@@KyrilPG I’m pleased that you enjoyed watching this video and appreciate all the effort you put into writing your very comprehensive response. Hopefully some other viewers will read all that you wrote. I suppose we should expect modern Metros in Europe and elsewhere to be automated especially in view of the heavy loadings they carry. Despite Sydney and Melbourne having 5 to 6,000,000 inhabitants, public transport usage is comparatively low with the vast majority preferring to drive to work. Separately I will send you a TV news report dealing with this project and it said that a train frequency of up to 3 minutes will be possible, which is sure to make you laugh. Nevertheless in reality, that is all that is needed, and also because since Covid, public transport usage in general is down probably between 10 and 20% compared with previously simply because many workers are working from home at least some of the time.
Your comment about a train moving into a station as the one in front is still running along the station proves what I suspected - that a “movable block” type signal system is in use. Some people queried why the signals are turned off when a CBTC train comes along and I replied that with the “movable block“ in use, there would be times when the in - cab signal could show green with the lineside signal red. Sydney has one specially built Metro line running which is being extended at the moment while another one or two are in early stages of construction. Incidentally I visited Paris a few times between 1975 and at the latest 1992 and took at least some video of the Metro and possibly the first modern Tramway between Saint Dennis and Bobigny. I don’t know if that’s likely to be of any interest.
@@KyrilPG Promised video. ruclips.net/video/bD0G8gcfKkE/видео.html
@@tressteleg1 Yeah sorry I got really carried away as I coincidentally was writing a note simultaneously about automation and the major transportation developments in Paris for a collaborative project that may end up being integrated into a script.
I'm a transit and urbanism nerd, so I also follow quite closely the transit expansions in Sydney and Melbourne, even if I haven't ever set foot down under yet. I've watched the "Mega Metro Sydney" episodes, etc.
But I must say that I was a bit baffled by the ridership numbers that I've found for the first Sydney Metro section in service : 55k daily.
Last Friday I went to the opening of a 3.2 kilometer long extension of the Paris T3b circular tram line. And the daily ridership forecast for just this rather small tram extension is roughly equivalent to the current ridership of Sydney Metro's existing section. Not even counting the fact that ridership forecasts in Paris always tend to be grossly underestimated.
I really hope that ridership will eventually rise with the opening of the next sections, the lines look great.
Plus, they're like the Aussie cousin of the Grand Paris Express (that will use Alstom Metropolis trains too).
I've also tried to follow the saga of Melbourne's suburban rail loop project, and I'm rather shocked by the cost and schedule. It seems like Australia is suffering from the same infrastructure development "ailment" as other developed English speaking countries.
But the project is interesting, it can be great.
Though, the fact that Sydney Metro chose full GoA4 automation is a good news as, just like in the US, Canada or UK, there's always more capital funding than operational one, and GoA4 UTO helps a lot in this configuration because it's substantially cheaper to operate at great frequency.
In the video you gave me (thanks by the way), the guy that says that to attract ridership, "you need frequency, plus frequency, and frequency" is absolutely right !
Higher frequency is a ridership magnet. Network operators should never succumb to reducing frequency because of lower than expected ridership. Because it will drive a downward spiral.
As for the train entering the station while the previous one hasn't cleared the platform yet : it was already the case 30 years ago. So, if memory serves, it's more of a block subdivision with permeable or permissive block, or a deformable one, than a movable block per se (at least with the original version of SACEM) but don't quote me on that.
Because SACEM was deployed in 1989, a decade before CBTC was formally standardized, and I believe that SACEM was originally track and rail transmitted.
It now probably is a mix of movable adaptative block, block subdivision and permeable or permissive block with the new ATO upgraded version.
In RER A, the SACEM displays a specific signal on the side of tracks, a "canceling" X, if I recall correctly, that nullifies trackside signals.
Ah ah, the good old Alstom TFS rolling stock from the T1 tram line...! They are still running...
Shacking and rattling like a fork drawer, badly ventilated and even worse climatised. Many will be happy to see the back of them.
They've really done their time and will be replaced very soon by 100% low floor latest generation Alstom Citadis X05 trams, increasing only a bit their length from 29.4 to 33 meters. They'll only enlarge in width by 10 centimeters...
They are supposed to look like a narrower and shorter version of the much larger and fancy Citadis X05 or 405 that run on T9 and T10 (real eye candy for tram lovers those ones, especially at night with their lighting).
Everyone already knows that these new slightly longer 5 element trams won't be able to cope with the crowds and that it needed at least a wider (2.65m) and much larger 7 element 45 meter long variant.
What infuriates me is that they've spent on extending the station platforms from 24 to 30 meters, just to cover the doors, instead of at least trying to stretch them to 45 meters.
It's one of the busiest lines, and will only continue to grow, but hey, it's the poorest sector of Paris and old habits of suboptimal equipment really die hard....
Since your visit in 1992, there are now 14 tram lines, including 3 express lines and totalling nearly 190km, with plenty of planned extensions.
A dozen of these lines opened in the last decade and a half or so.
Lines T3a and T3b form a 85% complete loop around Paris core, with the missing gap located in the super wealthy 16th district, what a surprise... 🤣 (It's SUV land and high end car dealers that line the boulevards fear that the tram may hurt their bottom line).
T1 was already extended several times and there are major extensions planned. It currently is 18km long and is expected to more than double in length.
As with the original T1 tram, all subsequent tram lines in Paris are either orbital / tangential lines or radial in the suburbs and are not all interconnected as they are an additional layer in the transit network, providing great connectivity with metro and RER lines.
Gosh, I did it again... another comment-novel. 😉
Nice sleuthing work! I've noticed that the door alignment to the exit gates has been very repeatable at Huntingdale recently.
I have 2 questions: 1. Where did you get the date 10/6/2025? 2. Where did you get the date 31/7/2123?
Thanks. Yes precise stopping is what is required, although there are apparently some bugs with that at some places anyway. 10/6/25 came from my driver friend who would not give me something if it was not accurate at the time. The other date was a typo from an official document.
@@tressteleg1 And here I was thinking you'd managed to time travel 😄
@@PaulinesPastimes Unfortunately Not 😊
where's the June 2025 metro tunnel opening date from? Has it been confirmed by the government?
Didn’t know anything was public
It came from my driver friend a few days ago. He is not in the habit of publishing false information.
Theoretically CBTC system doesn’t need lights, driver just need to follow the in-cab signal, but in practice lights are maintained for backup and extra protections. Some systems configure the lights to be constantly off, the lights will only on if needed, which I think it’s the case of the Melbourne one. I honestly think this setting could bring issues for driver to identify the status correctly.
In practice it doesn’t need lights. The new tunnel won’t have any. That’s why they are turned off when a CBTC train comes along. I suspect that in Metro mode trains use what is called moving block signals and if lineside lights are on, there probably would be times when those signals said stop but the in - cab signals said go. Of course the drivers could simply be told to ignore the outside signals, but that would go against the grain of all their training.
I should have also added that the signals are only there because eventually there will still be Vline and freight trains which will need the signals as they will never have CBTC equipment.
Interesting concept. A computer operating the ttain. The Airtrain at JFK is driverless. A computer is operating the train.
Thanks Tressteleg1.💙👍
There are plenty of automatically operating trains around the world but there can’t be too many mixed operations with signals going on and off as required.
That works kind of similar to London Underground's Central and Victoria Lines in terms of the driver/operator.
Yes it is heading that way, must be working June next year when the tunnel without signals opens.
How would you know that the signals are off because of cbtc or maybe the power just went out?
Which is more likely?
@@hazptmedia i would assume the cbtc, but what if the power did go out for a non-cbt train?
Signals I believe have their own battery supply and they cannot go off unless somebody cuts all the cables. They go to red. A CBTC driver would know his train is configured - he set it - so would expect the lights to be off. All other drivers would expect to see lights and if somehow the system jammed in CBTC mode, would bring the train to a stop and await instructions
@@tressteleg1 interesting, thanks
Is the opening date official or is that just rumoured within metro?
A few days ago my driver friend gave me the date and there was no doubt in his message. He is not in the habit of spreading false information - unless it goes wrong and has to be delayed.
@@tressteleg1 wasn’t the general idea that it would be opened late this year… as early as September
@@JamesJackson. I don’t live in Melbourne so I have never followed it that closely, but certainly by then regular test running through the tunnels should be under way in order to be ready for next June.
@@tressteleg1 There was an article published late last year that said that the CEO of the construction company let slip that the tunnel would be open and operational by September this year. I have my doubts, I'm sure your friend has a reliable source of his information and all of the government websites and articles are still saying 2025, but they've been continuously running test trains through the tunnel since July last year so it could be earlier all going well I guess
@Ryzi03 The government is the customer so they have the final say on when it will be ready. The most the constructor can say is that it will be ready for public use in September but that doesn’t mean the government will be ready. As for continuously running Trains, when I was making several trips down the line to get those scenes, I kept an eye on the tunnel mouths at South Yarra and each time I looked the gate was shut. I know that Trains have been to ANZAC Station at least, but I don’t know about any further. No matter what, we will just have to wait until it’s ready.
CBTC introduced on 31 July 2123?
Is this video from the future…
Must be 😆
No. You are in the past.😂
Is there a noticeable difference in smoothness to the ride with acceleration/deceleration between the automatic sections and driver operated?
There is not a lot of difference but the starts and stops did seem a bit harsher. One option that seems to be lacking in auto metros is the ability to coast. That essentially does not seem to happen. It is either braking or accelerating. That’s wasteful of power and a bit more jerky for the riders. If you noticed the train slow down then speed up again on the ride, that is a glitch which has the experts stumped. That is just one of many ‘glitches’ that have caused the system to be switched off for now.
@@tressteleg1 that doesn't seem right when the material I've read about automated Metros indicated that an *advantage* of automation is the computer can calculate the optimum driving profile to minimise energy use as well as vehicle maintenance.
@@BigBlueMan118 Yes that is what they will tell you, but you can’t tell me anything can be more efficient than a long downhill coasting stretch of maybe 1 km. Coasting has always been a feature of train and tram driving. It gives a smoother ride than forever alternating between powering and braking.
@@tressteleg1 I note that modern lines especially underground sections are typically designed with inclines on both sides of a station to assist with braking into and acceleration away from a stop.
@@tressteleg1Interesting.. automated trains in Sydney are pretty smooth in my experience. Haven't noticed any throttle hunting and they seem to be able to run with just a trickle of power applied when appropriate.
So, like Sydney Metro, after the buttons are pressed, it’s driverless kind of?
Essentially, yes. If driverless is the ultimate aim, nobody is saying anything yet.
@@tressteleg1 Oh wow, that’s interesting.
@@traingeekfromNSW 👍
@@tressteleg1 Driverless is not the intention due to the entire line not being fitted with CBTC and the line being mixed mode (shared with non-CBTC fitted trains)
@@SuperSimmo88 Sharing sections with non-CBTC trains seems not to be an issue. Drivers of trains in CBTC mode are little more than the passengers themselves. I have yet to get a report from a driver who has ‘driven’ one in regular service.
I can imagine that it would have freek some people out seeing trains passing the signals at high speed when the signals are out.
Well unless you look out the window to see if the signals are on, you would not know if they are off and unless the train is going fairly slowly, you wouldn’t have time to check anyway. But most ordering people wouldn’t give it a thought.
was it a line from shakespeare, "brave new world"?
Probably him. Sounds appropriate.
@@tressteleg1 , i think there should be a screen in every cab that shows the line ahead and the path that is chosen, indicating how points are set. this and the automatic in-cab signalling together seems like a big step forward. i'm thinking about how that melbourne to sydney train got thrown unexpectedly into a loop or siding causing it to flop on its side killing the driver.
@@vsvnrg3263 As a tram driver, I was required to check the points myself, as I selected the direction. Railways don’t think like that. Train drivers have a blind faith in whatever the signal box has set up and indicated with signals. I expect that when in CBTC mode, signals for the section ahead are displayed in the cab.
There were 2 XPT disasters. The one you mention was because trackwork was happening on the main line and traffic was using the siding to get through. But somewhere there was confusion and the 2 drivers, both of whom died, were given an indication that the traffic was using the main line again, but it was not.
The other was at South Brisbane ? January 2011, and fits your suggestion of checking points. Southbound coming off the dual gauge River Bridge entering that station, there was a malfunction in a point blade and instead of the XPT being diverted onto the separate standard gauge track, one point blade did not move and the wheels were forced to go from standard gauge to 3 foot 6, which of course could not happen and the power car and I think one following bogie ended up in the dirt. Low speed, no injuries.
@@tressteleg1 , of course, trains may be going too fast to check points. if that xpt that was fatal had a plain, easy to read screen like most of us (not me ) have in our pocket for street navigation that showed, without fault, what path was ahead, they would have been prepared. i was under the impression they werent told. even if they were told, if it was on a screen in front of them until they had passed the points it could be considered a constant reminder. your second case is another good reason to standardise all gauges across the country. fishplate films says dual gauge points are troublesome.
Whats the point of CBTC or automatic trains if your running 10 min headways?
Quite possibly get rid of drivers or replace them with much lower skilled lower paid button pushers.
@@tressteleg1 That would seem to be the thing these days , driver-less trains can't be blamed for any stuff-up's or injuries caused by electronic malfunctions but driver's can be though ; I feel that there'll be a lot of "driver-less" trains being introduced onto the metro rail services over the next 10 or so years as a way to cut down operational costs as it's already happening on the Iron Ore railways in Northern W.A. with autonomous trains already in use up there.
@Locoman3801 According to my driver friend, although initially automation will run as at present and also though the tunnel to the Footscray region, it won’t go any further at this stage. It is very expensive and there is no money at present, whatever the advantages might be.
@@tressteleg1 The new underground stations are fitted with Platform Screen Doors (PSDs). The PSDs have a stopping accuracy requirement of +-150mm for the PSDs to align with the train doors. Ask your driver friend how they would go stopping from 80km/h with that level of accuracy. Some of my test drivers have practiced enough now that they can usually get it, but it is definitely not easy. Headways are being tested at 2mins at 80km/h. But there are some good photos out there showing the trains banking up to be meters apart. On the surface 10m is the minimum separation. This is restricted in the tunnel due to ventilation sections that limit trains stopping and bunching up, but they can still get very close. Full automation will not be possible as the CBTC does not extend to the length of the line. Likewise due to the mixed traffic sharing the lines fitted with CBTC, the signals need to be retained.
@@SuperSimmo88 Certainly having drivers stop with such accuracy would be more than a big ask. However it is believed that some of the reason CBTC stopped for a couple of weeks when that video was published was because train stopping accurately at those doors was not good enough. Presumably and hopefully that was overcome during the shutdown. While testing is showing how close the trains can safely operate, one has to wonder whether, with working from home and greater car use since Covid, 2 minute headways will ever be needed. As for driverless, impractical until the entire line has CBTC, and whether funds for that will ever be available is another unknown. Personally I was quite fascinated the way the signals turned on and off as required, quite an achievement even if in these early days there may have been the occasional glitch.
The rough ride & terrible train management make it obvious.
Do you say that as a regular user, of just observations from the video? I thought the ride was acceptable although a driver gives a smoother ride.
By the way that's why you have e bikes or nomal bikes haha 😂
😊
31 July 2123 ???
Just checking you
I'm HCMT
😊