It is possible to have true bypass plus an indicator light with just two poles. I believe it was done with the Rat pedal at some stage, maybe in the late 80's.(?) The LED is switched on and off with a darlington transistor that is biased with the output resistance of the pedal. It's very clever. In the late 90's, RG Keen refined the idea with the "millenium bypass". I think the article is still up on the Geofex site, and it became a common solution in the DIY stompbox community. Of course, 3PDT stomp switches are so common these days, so it's all academic I guess... I also remember the Cliff switches fondly. Really great quality. And FWIW, I've used latching relays to retro fit into Boss pedals to have true bypass with the original momentary switch. Thanks for your great content on this and your other channel, Fran!
This is great! having fixed lots of hifi, it's amazing to see how much effort and quality was put into them in the 70s 80s. I did order a rocker DP power switch recently for an 1982 amp. The replacement happened to be exactly the same, made in UK by same company today. A happy accident.
I wasn't buying pedals (or even playing guitar) in the mid-90s, but I remember the whole DPDT (et al)/true bypass meta-conversation in the early 2000s. Interesting to hear an insider retrospective 20 or so years later.
First found your content when looking for Gruitar Pedals but it was on your Main Channel, possibly the Peach 🍑 Fuzz? Currently have over 125 or more pedals and I have to say, the design and artwork on yours looks fantastic as was the sound, though your pedals were difficult to source here in the UK back then. Export/Import permissions can be very difficult and expensive to plough through. My pedal collection is now sufficient to replicate any sound from an ambulance being rolled off a cliff all the way through to trapping a dogs testicles in the car door 😂😂😂. I love the feel of a superbly engineered latching footswitch in the morning, feels like ....... victory !
One big change on the 70s in the telephony world was moving from big heavy noisy relays to whisper quiet reed relays. (And also using stored program control ... computers ... to manage the routing cut down a lot of electro mechanical switches). I expect it increased reliability too since the reeds were hermetically sealed.
If you don't already have an online store selling some of your previous hardware, I have a feeling that it would be advantageous to promote the sale of your rebuilds or things like these pedals. I admire the level of creativity and utility you share with us. Thanks Fran!
Military designs also needed switches with quality mechanisms and contacts. In some cases, a separate set of contacts was used, for safety reasons, just to know the switch position, separate from any other switch functions. In other cases, switch poles would be paralleled together to increase current carrying capacity or longevity. Then there would be double throw switches with make-before-break and break-before-make requirements. And all these switches would come in identical packages with identical contact arrangements. But it got worse: Some switches needed to be shielded, so a single pole switch could have a housing on it that added 4 more pins, again making it deceptively like the triple-pole switches. Eventually, some systems moved to magnetic switches, where the switch mechanism could be totally isolated from the physical and ambient RF environment, and the plunger moved only a magnet. The switch mechanism could be either magnetic reed switches or hall-effect switches. Either approach would vastly improve reliability, and the same magnet mechanism could operate multiple switch types.
This is so awesome to see. I don't play guitar and have very little interest in guitar pedals as a consumer product, but the electronics are utterly fascinating, and learning about them from the one and only Fran is an incredible opportunity. Thank you so much for everything you do, Fran.
The quieter clickless switches, which supposedly last a long time, have become my new obsession. Interesting to see the evolution of the switch strategy here.
That was a great idea using the switch to hold the PCB; less work to assemble and more reliability. It’s little things like that that make all the difference.
ack you are reviving my memories of trying to fix my beloved Rat pedal. Back in the 90's I scoured local stores in the Bay Area and the few online resources for the part but nobody had it. Everyone had TPDT for PCB mount or pretty much anything except the little eyelets for flying wires you see on Rat pedals (at least the ones they sold in the 90s, they are probably PCB mount now) For about a month I used a Radio Shack switch. But it was very flakey and the wrong size. I eventually scored a TPDT at a guitar amp manufacturer in Petaluma which I was friendly with. Not a fun soldering job! I could do it no problem now, since I've built dozens of Eurorack modules and 500 series modules. But in the 90s I'd only built or modified a few pedals and cables. And that 9 poled bastard was just trying to make me burn myself.
I also used a relay for switching an indicator light, when I built a tube overdrive pedal based on some online guide many years ago. It‘s a neat trick, and I wasn‘t able to buy a switch with enough poles either way.
Switches are so cool we even have a local switch shop called lovemyswitches here in portland oregon and they also have a lot of super cool knobs that are hard to find anywhere else. yeah, knob love...make your jokes.
Fran, ProCo RAT had a true bypass with LED indicator in the beginning of the '80s using 2PDT switch and Darlington transistor to light a LED and they're doing it still today, so it's possible on any pedal to achieve true bypass and LED on/off indicator with just 2PDT. And I believe that was Mike Fuller of "Fulltone" that was first to pushed 3PDT switch in the end of the '90s
I don't what it is about GOOD switches (good mechanical hardware in general) that's so soothing, but we certainly don't get good switch gear like that anymore. I've got some old airplane rocker and push-pull switches from the 60's that still make me cream a little just flicking them and not only hearing but feeling the tight clearance "click clack"
I loved the history lesson. I did use the six lug switch for a boost once. The quality control must be fantastic these days, because I haven’t had any DPDT switches crap out going on 300 and something builds.and at the beginning I was using the cheapies. I suppose having your experiences right from the very beginning has its perks. I know I wish I had that experience. You were and still are my favourite person when it comes to “boutique” You are the real deal. My fav fuzz used to be the Cream Puff. But now it’s defiantly the Peach fuzz. It’s versatile and I could point out the sound from a mile away. It’s such a cool originally designed circuit. It has lots of sounds in it and seems to dance around fuzz and distortion to me. I can tell the sound a mile away. I know you probably don’t read many of these as you are a busy one, doing your thing. But I have a question just in case you actually do see this. I made the Peach fuzz on Vero / strip board first and it called for a TLC2262 which makes sense. I think of the rail to rail being somewhat of a secret sauce to the sound.’ Then I bought a pcb from a euro place. They called for the same. The most recent board calls for a TL022. I don’t get it. I’m pretty sure you had two versions. Because I saw an old advert for it saying “now with twice the gain” Is the newest version TLC2262? Guess I’m wondering if the BOM uses TL022’’s that means it’s version 1. Hole that makes sense and you see this some day. Cheers keep doing what you do. It’s inspirational and original. Cheers
Also this version I built doesn’t seem to have as much gain. It won’t blow your head off at 9 o’clock like the newer one. Did you use TL022’ in version one? I tried them… but switched back to the TLC2262’s.’ Having rail to rail Opamp seemed like the goal. I found it a little less versatile and a little less “sweet” with the TL022’s.
From what I know, it's possible to have an indicator led and true bypass with a dpdt switch, using a millennium bypass, or similar circuit. It doesn't work well with some effect circuits tho, but they do for a lot of pedals.
I spent the better part of a year evaluating foot switches, finally ended up using a IP67 rated lighted push button that I modify with crystal toppers to get what I need. It's hard to get exactly what you want but you can usually modify an existing design to get close.
Nice video! A little bit of trivia, the aftermarket push to talk switches used in older aircraft that attach to the yoke with Velcro are actually two switches within the housing. It provides the redundancy needed to be used in regular aircraft. What are the chances of both switches failing at the same time? Slim. Are you still marketing effects pedals to this day? If so where do we find them?
The use of signal relays is a good solution. I use them in many designs. Is Cliff the same company that makes the Cliff that makes the Quicktest Big Clive uses?
I notice a deterioration in the quality of currently available switches - in quite high end pedals. The problem is with the way the body is held together with metal tabs folded over. The tabs are not strong enough and lose grip resulting in intermittent contact in the switch. Smacks of bean counter interference.
@@FrantoneElectronics that'd be Rubycon Black Gates. Nichicons are nice too though. I've tested 40+ year old Rubies that still were good. Seeing some things makes one a believer.
Hey, I like the idea of switch mounted on the PCB thus holding the board steady in the enclosure; I absolutely hate dangling PCBs with a passion! So many effects are ruined by it. Commercial ones at that... The Cliff switches look damn awesome! Gooooooooooood stuff, I love it. If you made the Cream Puff PCB all by yourself, then how did you do the silkscreen and soldermask?
@@FrantoneElectronics I gotta check out that one then - wondering how to DIY a complete board rather than just etching a bare one. I had a bunch of designs (most notably, my rpi2caster control interface) made by a local PCB manufacturing house in Łódź in 2015, together with doing all the SMD work (I couldn't do it back then, learned how to assemble them pesky lil' buggers only in 2021). Nowadays I mostly do perfboards for one-off projects like the VS-1 or power supplies in the amps I build, and if I need something more precise, I go over to my friend Alana and use her etching device.
@@KeritechElectronics Dangling PCB is actually a feature on BOSS pedals and makes sense, in fact it's a brilliant idea. Prevents mechanical shocks to PCB and no pots and no jacks are directly mounted on PCB so it just dangles in there without any harmful contact with exterior of the pedal.
Really interesting for me, especially because my latest foot panel uses no less than 8 of the dual DPDT switches with solder lugs you use in your first iteration of your foot pedals. One thing about those things: Why is there no marking on them indicating which pole is Normal Open and which one is Normal Closed? This seems to be an odd design omission that can easily be remedied by just having some embossed/ engraved writing / symbols on the housing.
@@FrantoneElectronics I can understand that, but these had no markings whatsoever, no type, no brand. Nothing. That makes it really difficult to tell the front from the back, because they look exactly the same. That goes for the sides as well.
@@brocktechnology In that case, maybe the push-button I'm using is a bit different. It does have both a normal open and normal closed state and it's important to know at what side the NC and NO contact lies. If you turn the switch 180 degrees the NC and NO flip sides: NC-CO-NO. After 180 degrees turn: NO-CO-NC When connecting the non-common contacts to an S-R latch, it's important to know what switching contact to connect to which contact of the latch ( NC to the Reset and NO to the Set contact of the latch). This will yield a circuit where the normal state is Off and the depressed state is ON.
@@LarixusSnydes I think i see the greater truth here. It's my contention that the depressed and non-depressed state of the switch is not meaningfully deferent from an ergonomic perspective and so the switch has no meaningful, practical normal state. It seams you disagree, and i see no reason your perspective would be less valid than mine. Perhaps the designer of the labeling agrees with me.
Would be amusing if there was a momentary version that still had the clunk sound to make a mechanical keyboard out of, just as a silly gimmick more than anything.
Great episode. I was curious where and how smaller scale manufacturers found vendors to supply less than common parts. Not having a source for foot switches in the pre-internet days kept me from expanding my interest in making my own pedals. I didn't want to deal with relays out of fear of excessive battery draw, but I wanted true bypass.
In the 90's it was still all done through industrial supply catalogs and lots of phone calls to distributors. Often you needed to recruit reps inside the supply chains that had networks of connections and could search for what you needed. For a commission, of course.
It is possible to have true bypass plus an indicator light with just two poles. I believe it was done with the Rat pedal at some stage, maybe in the late 80's.(?) The LED is switched on and off with a darlington transistor that is biased with the output resistance of the pedal. It's very clever. In the late 90's, RG Keen refined the idea with the "millenium bypass". I think the article is still up on the Geofex site, and it became a common solution in the DIY stompbox community. Of course, 3PDT stomp switches are so common these days, so it's all academic I guess... I also remember the Cliff switches fondly. Really great quality. And FWIW, I've used latching relays to retro fit into Boss pedals to have true bypass with the original momentary switch. Thanks for your great content on this and your other channel, Fran!
So cool to see new frantone content! Interesting to hear about the different switches. Nice satisfying sounding click on the Cliff ones especially.
Hi, I'm a Brazilian specialist telecommunications technician at on oil and gas industries and I felt here by parachute! I liked your channel!
ᶘಠᴥಠᶅ feeling _fuzzy,_ that’s good!
This is great! having fixed lots of hifi, it's amazing to see how much effort and quality was put into them in the 70s 80s. I did order a rocker DP power switch recently for an 1982 amp. The replacement happened to be exactly the same, made in UK by same company today. A happy accident.
I wasn't buying pedals (or even playing guitar) in the mid-90s, but I remember the whole DPDT (et al)/true bypass meta-conversation in the early 2000s. Interesting to hear an insider retrospective 20 or so years later.
When they first started making DPDT’s they were like $15 or something.
And I think those were the cheapies too.
First found your content when looking for Gruitar Pedals but it was on your Main Channel, possibly the Peach 🍑 Fuzz?
Currently have over 125 or more pedals and I have to say, the design and artwork on yours looks fantastic as was the sound, though your pedals were difficult to source here in the UK back then. Export/Import permissions can be very difficult and expensive to plough through. My pedal collection is now sufficient to replicate any sound from an ambulance being rolled off a cliff all the way through to trapping a dogs testicles in the car door 😂😂😂.
I love the feel of a superbly engineered latching footswitch in the morning, feels like ....... victory !
One big change on the 70s in the telephony world was moving from big heavy noisy relays to whisper quiet reed relays. (And also using stored program control ... computers ... to manage the routing cut down a lot of electro mechanical switches).
I expect it increased reliability too since the reeds were hermetically sealed.
This is the sorta content I like to see. Thanks Fran!
I'm loving the Frantone content! So cool to see the build intel on these important pedals. Thank you.
If you don't already have an online store selling some of your previous hardware, I have a feeling that it would be advantageous to promote the sale of your rebuilds or things like these pedals. I admire the level of creativity and utility you share with us. Thanks Fran!
Military designs also needed switches with quality mechanisms and contacts. In some cases, a separate set of contacts was used, for safety reasons, just to know the switch position, separate from any other switch functions. In other cases, switch poles would be paralleled together to increase current carrying capacity or longevity. Then there would be double throw switches with make-before-break and break-before-make requirements.
And all these switches would come in identical packages with identical contact arrangements. But it got worse: Some switches needed to be shielded, so a single pole switch could have a housing on it that added 4 more pins, again making it deceptively like the triple-pole switches.
Eventually, some systems moved to magnetic switches, where the switch mechanism could be totally isolated from the physical and ambient RF environment, and the plunger moved only a magnet. The switch mechanism could be either magnetic reed switches or hall-effect switches. Either approach would vastly improve reliability, and the same magnet mechanism could operate multiple switch types.
This is so awesome to see. I don't play guitar and have very little interest in guitar pedals as a consumer product, but the electronics are utterly fascinating, and learning about them from the one and only Fran is an incredible opportunity. Thank you so much for everything you do, Fran.
Making boards that takes me back to 70's
The quieter clickless switches, which supposedly last a long time, have become my new obsession. Interesting to see the evolution of the switch strategy here.
Some nice looking circuit boards - and having the switch be the mount point for the whole board is pretty cool!
Brother remembered the login a decade later lmao Godbless
That was a great idea using the switch to hold the PCB; less work to assemble and more reliability. It’s little things like that that make all the difference.
That was fun. I liked the explanations, and details on relative costs and other things.
ack you are reviving my memories of trying to fix my beloved Rat pedal.
Back in the 90's I scoured local stores in the Bay Area and the few online resources for the part but nobody had it.
Everyone had TPDT for PCB mount or pretty much anything except the little eyelets for flying wires you see on Rat pedals (at least the ones they sold in the 90s, they are probably PCB mount now)
For about a month I used a Radio Shack switch. But it was very flakey and the wrong size.
I eventually scored a TPDT at a guitar amp manufacturer in Petaluma which I was friendly with.
Not a fun soldering job! I could do it no problem now, since I've built dozens of Eurorack modules and 500 series modules.
But in the 90s I'd only built or modified a few pedals and cables. And that 9 poled bastard was just trying to make me burn myself.
I also used a relay for switching an indicator light, when I built a tube overdrive pedal based on some online guide many years ago. It‘s a neat trick, and I wasn‘t able to buy a switch with enough poles either way.
Inspirational - need this to recruit more young entrepreneurs to tech and stem roles. Bravo Gx
This was super cool. Hope she accidentally reads this comment. You rock Fran!
(What are they feeding you?)
I feel like switches in general are under-appreciated. As you illustrated here, there are a lot of small factors that add up to big differences. Neat.
Frantone yaaaay!
My Creampuff is still going strong.
Great content and glamour shots of some of your pedals.
I love learning about these details - thanks!
Switches are so cool we even have a local switch shop called lovemyswitches here in portland oregon and they also have a lot of super cool knobs that are hard to find anywhere else.
yeah, knob love...make your jokes.
This is actually helpful. Thank you.
Thanks!! So fun. Anything with relays is fine by me!
Very interesting designer notes! THIS is boutique.
Good stuff, thanks Fran!
👍👍
YAY! IT'S FRANTONE! 🙏👌
Fran, ProCo RAT had a true bypass with LED indicator in the beginning of the '80s using 2PDT switch and Darlington transistor to light a LED and they're doing it still today, so it's possible on any pedal to achieve true bypass and LED on/off indicator with just 2PDT.
And I believe that was Mike Fuller of "Fulltone" that was first to pushed 3PDT switch in the end of the '90s
Now we need a video about those Nichicon Muse capacitors.
I don't what it is about GOOD switches (good mechanical hardware in general) that's so soothing, but we certainly don't get good switch gear like that anymore. I've got some old airplane rocker and push-pull switches from the 60's that still make me cream a little just flicking them and not only hearing but feeling the tight clearance "click clack"
Great Great GREAT! I dream of videos like this .
super cool - you know what you are doing and do it right
Very cool Fran. I love your videos.
Love these videos, Fran!
Now I have to open up my Sweet fuzz to look at the switch.
I loved the history lesson. I did use the six lug switch for a boost once. The quality control must be fantastic these days, because I haven’t had any DPDT switches crap out going on 300 and something builds.and at the beginning I was using the cheapies.
I suppose having your experiences right from the very beginning has its perks. I know I wish I had that experience.
You were and still are my favourite person when it comes to “boutique” You are the real deal.
My fav fuzz used to be the Cream Puff. But now it’s defiantly the Peach fuzz. It’s versatile and I could point out the sound from a mile away. It’s such a cool originally designed circuit. It has lots of sounds in it and seems to dance around fuzz and distortion to me. I can tell the sound a mile away.
I know you probably don’t read many of these as you are a busy one, doing your thing. But I have a question just in case you actually do see this.
I made the Peach fuzz on Vero / strip board first and it called for a TLC2262 which makes sense. I think of the rail to rail being somewhat of a secret sauce to the sound.’
Then I bought a pcb from a euro place. They called for the same.
The most recent board calls for a TL022. I don’t get it. I’m pretty sure you had two versions. Because I saw an old advert for it saying “now with twice the gain”
Is the newest version TLC2262?
Guess I’m wondering if the BOM uses TL022’’s that means it’s version 1.
Hole that makes sense and you see this some day.
Cheers keep doing what you do. It’s inspirational and original.
Cheers
Also this version I built doesn’t seem to have as much gain. It won’t blow your head off at 9 o’clock like the newer one. Did you use TL022’ in version one?
I tried them… but switched back to the TLC2262’s.’ Having rail to rail Opamp seemed like the goal.
I found it a little less versatile and a little less “sweet” with the TL022’s.
I wouldn’t usually ask about the opamps. But you pretty clearly said you are DONE with pedal building.
Love this!
I’d LOVE to get one of your pedals!
Would love to own one of those treasures on my pedalboard.
Love the video!
Cool!
I've been waiting for this!
You need an alternate vocal track for your song with FranTone instead of FranLab! Interesting video.
I was wondering why how you didn't mention the switches much in the other Boo video, now I am satisfied... !!!
From what I know, it's possible to have an indicator led and true bypass with a dpdt switch, using a millennium bypass, or similar circuit. It doesn't work well with some effect circuits tho, but they do for a lot of pedals.
I spent the better part of a year evaluating foot switches, finally ended up using a IP67 rated lighted push button that I modify with crystal toppers to get what I need. It's hard to get exactly what you want but you can usually modify an existing design to get close.
Make sure you do solder work on a sunny day Inside. Hunched over the table. Soldering away. Being drole I am.
I don't know what they use but the TC and NUX switches are sublime. I hate hard clicking pedals soooo much.
My TC switch on Ditto 2 pedal failed after just one year. TC refused to replace it.
Nice video! A little bit of trivia, the aftermarket push to talk switches used in older aircraft that attach to the yoke with Velcro are actually two switches within the housing. It provides the redundancy needed to be used in regular aircraft. What are the chances of both switches failing at the same time? Slim.
Are you still marketing effects pedals to this day? If so where do we find them?
The use of signal relays is a good solution. I use them in many designs.
Is Cliff the same company that makes the Cliff that makes the Quicktest Big Clive uses?
1:40 What the !! Hey why are my headlights going bright-dim-bright-dim...??!!
I notice a deterioration in the quality of currently available switches - in quite high end pedals. The problem is with the way the body is held together with metal tabs folded over. The tabs are not strong enough and lose grip resulting in intermittent contact in the switch.
Smacks of bean counter interference.
I also see all quality capacitors on that board.
Only top shelf will do.
@@FrantoneElectronics that'd be Rubycon Black Gates. Nichicons are nice too though. I've tested 40+ year old Rubies that still were good. Seeing some things makes one a believer.
i used to have a foot pedal to dim the headlights in my car.
Wow great channel
=
Cool
I make pedals on a micro-small scale......... so I can appreciate the challenge of starting from zero.
Sad that the first thing I noticed about these designs is how easy it would be for thieves to copy them.
Hey, I like the idea of switch mounted on the PCB thus holding the board steady in the enclosure; I absolutely hate dangling PCBs with a passion! So many effects are ruined by it. Commercial ones at that...
The Cliff switches look damn awesome! Gooooooooooood stuff, I love it.
If you made the Cream Puff PCB all by yourself, then how did you do the silkscreen and soldermask?
The 2016-18 reissue boards were made here in PA - I did a whole video about it. Still hand made, but by more people than just me.
@@FrantoneElectronics I gotta check out that one then - wondering how to DIY a complete board rather than just etching a bare one. I had a bunch of designs (most notably, my rpi2caster control interface) made by a local PCB manufacturing house in Łódź in 2015, together with doing all the SMD work (I couldn't do it back then, learned how to assemble them pesky lil' buggers only in 2021). Nowadays I mostly do perfboards for one-off projects like the VS-1 or power supplies in the amps I build, and if I need something more precise, I go over to my friend Alana and use her etching device.
@@KeritechElectronics Dangling PCB is actually a feature on BOSS pedals and makes sense, in fact it's a brilliant idea. Prevents mechanical shocks to PCB and no pots and no jacks are directly mounted on PCB so it just dangles in there without any harmful contact with exterior of the pedal.
Really interesting for me, especially because my latest foot panel uses no less than 8 of the dual DPDT switches with solder lugs you use in your first iteration of your foot pedals. One thing about those things: Why is there no marking on them indicating which pole is Normal Open and which one is Normal Closed? This seems to be an odd design omission that can easily be remedied by just having some embossed/ engraved writing / symbols on the housing.
Industrial controls tend not to be marked like that. It is assumed that you know what you're doing with the part, or have the data sheet, etc....
@@FrantoneElectronics I can understand that, but these had no markings whatsoever, no type, no brand. Nothing. That makes it really difficult to tell the front from the back, because they look exactly the same. That goes for the sides as well.
It's a double position toggling push button there is no normal state, if you flip it over it works the same.
@@brocktechnology In that case, maybe the push-button I'm using is a bit different. It does have both a normal open and normal closed state and it's important to know at what side the NC and NO contact lies. If you turn the switch 180 degrees the NC and NO flip sides:
NC-CO-NO. After 180 degrees turn:
NO-CO-NC
When connecting the non-common contacts to an S-R latch, it's important to know what switching contact to connect to which contact of the latch ( NC to the Reset and NO to the Set contact of the latch). This will yield a circuit where the normal state is Off and the depressed state is ON.
@@LarixusSnydes I think i see the greater truth here.
It's my contention that the depressed and non-depressed state of the switch is not meaningfully deferent from an ergonomic perspective and so the switch has no meaningful, practical normal state. It seams you disagree, and i see no reason your perspective would be less valid than mine.
Perhaps the designer of the labeling agrees with me.
Would be amusing if there was a momentary version that still had the clunk sound to make a mechanical keyboard out of, just as a silly gimmick more than anything.
🙂
🐈
Kuchunk kuchunk
Great episode. I was curious where and how smaller scale manufacturers found vendors to supply less than common parts.
Not having a source for foot switches in the pre-internet days kept me from expanding my interest in making my own pedals. I didn't want to deal with relays out of fear of excessive battery draw, but I wanted true bypass.
In the 90's it was still all done through industrial supply catalogs and lots of phone calls to distributors. Often you needed to recruit reps inside the supply chains that had networks of connections and could search for what you needed. For a commission, of course.
What does a pedal do???
Just fyi....l had to resubscribe just now. Weird