This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard... - Destiny Debates Mike from PA
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- Опубликовано: 2 ноя 2024
- This one gets heated, boys.
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Date streamed: 08/18/2019
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I just began watching the debate, and it opens to Destiny almost having a seizure.
As is tradition
First time?
Destiny lost this. I don’t know why people take him seriously.
@@originoflogos Dumbfuck leftie over here
@@originoflogos being wrong about one thing doesn't make you an idiot. Get out of here with your tribalist BS.
loving all these debates lately. they're all interesting and just plain entertaining.
unsubscribed
Only ML?
Vaporwave Lenin has spoken boys, unsubscribe or 80's retro gulag.
@@Fisherminer
actually i'm a marxist-leninist-club penguinist
@@jelly3374 The Soviet Union fell, and then Club Penguin fell. Coincidence?? 🤔
@@jelly3374 nice dude i see you are really trying to further the communists cause
I think destiny just solved the 2008 financial crisis because... people "wouldn't do that" ..... ???
Good news to everyone who thought they lost their bank accounts and homes
Lol exactly
People wouldn’t do what?
Hey hey hey he would never pass around a picture of a 15yr girl too guys!
@@stevengracia2346 LOL good one buddy, you really got him there
I don't think its a fair comparison. The crisis wasn't consequence of fraudulent companies trying to hike their share prices in the short term and destroying the company long term. It was about a fraudulent subprime mortgage market, where there are no shareholders involved directly and only a few people were aware of what was happening. If a company decides to get involved in inside trading, then it would be very difficult to hide it since a lot of the investors who have stakes on the company would be against it. If you are investing heavily into a company long term, you would not let them hike the price short-term and destroy the company.
So destiny admits he isn’t in a position to talk about these economic issues but then laughs mike off when he brings something up destiny has never heard of? Destiny just did a cringe.
@@michael138 that's ridiculous stock buybacks starve the economy.
www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-economist-who-put-stock-buybacks-in-washingtons-crosshairs
www.google.com/url?q=rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Stock-buybacks.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjfjp6NzZLkAhVKuVkKHQRfD-s4ChAWMAR6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw1hb7zXCIg_vMd-19yb5EU3
@@Kitties_are_pretty you know you can just call it Capital right? It's weird as fuck when English speakers call it Das Kapital.
Donald Smith yup. Cuz we all know when corporate morons and shareholders get to keep more money, they use that extra capital to invest in the workers or improving the company and not for hoarding in offshore tax havens which inevitably keeps said shareholders more money for their children and children’s children to inherit.
Joshua Brooks how about you read Thomas Piketty’s “Capital in the twenty-first century” and learn how and why income inequality has been growing instead of making cringey comments?? Destiny doesn’t know shit. He’s a twitch gamer who reads a few articles and thinks he’s a Rhodes scholar.
@@originoflogos I read it since you commented. It sucks, not enough free market and too much equality. Bad.
Dude… I know we live in a capitalist society, but he’s talking about ethics and how it relates to business. And yes I’m talking about your guest. I’ve never heard anybody make such valid points and listen to you scream over them like this. Yes, you scream a lot of people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about… I’m honestly not seeing that this time. If ethics are old-fashioned in this case You may have just become bitter towards a certain appeal or honest thought. It’s OK to have that happen from time to time but dude you really got to think.
Yeah, Destiny was getting too worked up on technical points instead of the effect that those stock buybacks have on workers and what’s paid in taxes
Alex Lilly for real. Ethics is a basic principle and studied factor for business, and without ethical consideration, we wouldn’t have made progress at all regarding the average work week, labor laws, etc...
Yeah, Destiny has lost his mind over Tankies, and he's heading dangerously to a path where he's going to end up on the Right again. Like, he is genuinely unaware of how he's advancing anti-soc dem policies and furthering irrational propaganda points against his own purported worldview. It's really disappointing to see him go this direction.
@Andrius Bandzinas No, that wasn't Destiny's point. Destiny's points were explicitly: 1. Stock buybacks are good because before they were illegal they were legal, QED. 2. There's no manipulation by CEO's with stock buybacks. 3. Companies only look into stock buybacks if there's nothing to do R&D on; therefore, there mustn't be anything to work on because they're equally investing in buybacks and R&D. The problem is that Destiny is wrong on literally all of these points with like
@Andrius Bandzinas Yeah, I mean to your first comment. He made a bunch of points, but on like 5 different occasions those are the big three, I would say. *shrugs*
Yikes, never thought I’d see Destiny get Destiny’d in a debate. For real this time... yikes
If you take a loan against the value of your stock holdings, you get cash, and you maintain your stock position (which is useful to keep your voting rights on a board of directors...)
Also yes there’s a meaningful difference between dividends and stocks... 🙄
All hail Mike
Captain0Newman yeah I was low key cringing at destiny in this debate
Stop saying yikes so much, you cringy soyboy
Destiny has weird blind spots in his otherwise hardcore logic when it comes to most things capitalism.
@@francoisbaldo51 most capitalist's have we all are going to die because of capitalism gl bois
Yeah destiny was wrong about that, but right on the stock buyback stuff.
Destiny got his stock bought back in this debate.
So that means he made money right? did I learn something?
@@MuscleboundKage bless your heart
@@MuscleboundKage 😂😂💀
@@aibrainlet8041 he calibrates well. Sometimes he is patient with legit racists, gun nuts, and neo cons; but it keeps them on the stream for hours so he can provide great material for debunking all of their nonsense. If his goal is to be slightly less informative but get millions of views and streams, its probably better than informing ten already smart people by having a level headed Sam Harris style tone.
@@Michael_Paul585 I see almost no value in debating people like that. Those are such low-hanging fruits that it really is not impressive, it's more like a public service? But who is Destiny talking down from the right wing edge? Is that a thing? I mean, i can't imagine being such a brainlet that DESTINY had to bring me to the light
Destiny is gonna have a heart attack defending the status quo
If he did do you think it would hit the front page of LSF 🤔
RIP strawman
It's admirable, really.
@Donald Smith "tHeY shOuLd gIvE aLL oF thEir cApiTal tO thEiR woRKeRs fOr fREE, this is bullshit capitalism bad REEEE!!"
Everyone who doesn't want millions to die is a defender of the status quo bro
Aaaand destiny's facade of economic literacy goes straight into the trash can.
Excuse me lets take Destiny's logic about insider trading not happening because he does not see it, I don't see jay walking, therefor jay walking is not happening all the time, and to say otherwise is conspiratorial. Now I say that is not economic illteracy: that is a total failure of logic!
You didn't see graphite on the floor because it wasn't there
Yeah I don't even think I can finish this. He's acting like the CEO either just sells all their stock, perfectly timed and leaves the company to burn, or they just randomly sell stock whenever. It's totally unthinkable that the CEO would sell a percentage of their stocks at an advantageous time with inside info to get more money than they would otherwise.
@@michael138 when did I say stock buyback? I said the CEO sells his stock just after the company does a stock buyback, or as I put it at an advantageous point, when prices for his personal stock are highest.
@@michael138 I'm not arguing if he is economically illiterate or not, only that his argument lacks basic logic, and that, to me, is far worse.
Destiny lost so hard that I am now a socialist. Thank you Mr. Bonnell.
I got radicalized into anarcho communism thanks to steven
Kyle Holmstrom the higher classes try to serve their own interests over others. Idk bruh sounds like a CoNsPiraCy to me.
i haven't finished this debate yet but they're not discussing socialism are they? why would this debate turn you into a socialist, this mike guy seems like a social democrat
Erbyenbe listen buddy I got more than 100 likes on my comment let me enjoy my fame.
welcome to the fold comrade
I like the new Destiny, it's very humble to post your repeated L's
I cannot tell if this is a joke
@@roymarshall_ it's not
How did he lose?
yikes, imagine thinking that someone who mixed emotions with economic mechanisms is right
@@Pizza_Rat Your statement means nothing, it has no bearing on the validity of the argument...
Mike was trying to ram prescriptions into a descriptive issue. In essence, he was saying that companies ought to pay more to their employees with the extra money, they ought to invest in R&D that benefits the public and not the company, while Destiny was pointing out why stock buybacks are used.
If you want to argue about the points made go ahead, but not give me this ''hE WaS EmOTiOnaL beCaUse HE hAS PaSiiOn''
Debate Sam Seder on the topic of stock buy backs; that's his jam.
The jew knows his stuff. I love him.
Manny EHC WeirdYou
@@seto007 "m-my intellectual could beat up your intellectual!"
I thought his jam was explaining highways to libertarians, something that had to be done because this indeed is the worse timeline.
@@middleheavens exactly. Destiny is not an intellectual
When did destiny become the RUclips version of joe Biden
@Donald Smith stop copy pasting the same thing on all the comments lol
Anthony Buono he’s more of a Pete butigudg. Destiny is not a racist.
Jeremy P very true my bad
go to steve 3033033300
Biden touched him and he liked it. #TheEnd
Destiny subscribed to the Wall Street Journal in this debate
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
@Donald Smith Dude are you just fucking reading every comment and replying with the same thing? Destiny lost this debate but get a fucking life dude lol
@@Wartoz Would be better if it was the Financial Times probably. WSJ is a pretty conservative leaning source on economics.
@@michael138 But Mike's main point wasn't about that. His main point was that stock buybacks incentivize CEOs to make decisions that benefit the short term of the company and not the long term, which means they invest less in R&D, and wages.
@@estebangomez7955 They also make funky accounting decisions that cause them to hire contract workers rather than real employees because it looks better on their books. Contract workers are a great example of this short term thinking that drives corporations these days.
Damn this videogame makes Destiny violent.....
I guess the conservatives were right after all. Videogames do make people violent.
Comment deserves more
We should probs ban em
Mike is right about 1 thing. Read any Pharmaceutical 10K, Annual Report.
You get mostly vague development pipeline details about the new products they're developing. For good reasons, they want to protect their IP, but it's silly to think the shareholders and boardmembers are able to accurately analyze whether they'd get a better return on R&D vs Buybacks.
And when you risk-adjust it, the shareholders will choose buybacks everytime because there is a 100% chance that increases your stock price while R&D is a crapshoot whether there will be return or not.
Boardmembers are the ones who make those decisions- and they have a good idea what’s going on in r&d
@@beyoncehadoneofthebest
You'd be shocked
slowly turning down the volume...
any implication that wealthy/powerful people could possibly be abusing said wealth/power in unseen ways for personal gain gets immediately written off as "conspiratorial"
Yes and the most effective way to combat that is by raising the minimum wage. Stock buybacks have nothing to do with that
Ryan Curry it’s funny because sociology disagrees
@@TheCookix lol are you serious?
@@ryancurry7062 I can tell how serious he is by the fact that he didn't make a counter claim just said "lol" the least helpful comment in anything ev-I mean hahaha. lol
why attribute people to malice immediately when you could look to any rational decisions actors could be making.
Destinys' blood pressure got DESTROYED in this debate
Stock buy backs are basically legalized insider trading because they have more info than the sellers.
What do you mean Trump's SEC has been very aggressive at regulating wall Street /s
Buybacks are also a massive legal tax dodge for shareholders
And it artificially inflates the value of the company as a result...which comes back to bite you in the ass when the economy takes a dip.
@@willyoung859 really? Interesting. Can u share some info on that?
@@mannysikario
The /s means sarcasm
16 mins in and we have multiple instances of triggered rap godstiny, as well as ms paint memes? Def a good one
13 minuntes in and now im excited for some paint memes
Destiny loves focusing on one thing he thinks makes his point, while at the same time missing the real point. Then getting super triggered if you try to explain that to him. When he focuses on the detail of the specific thing in a vacuum he misses a lot of the context of the greater class struggle.
@@lincathomas mike from PA Grunt
@@lincathomas So instead of explaining what he was wrong about you are appealing to a style you perceive and implying there is hypocrisy without demonstrating it.
Holy crap Des, it's amazing you would post this thinking you came out looking well. I think you get stuck on how things 'should work' from how they 'actually work'
@Mike 89 Not if I use adblock
@Mike 89 RUclips Vanced
@@michael138 it does. You pay taxes on income; the wealthy take loans against investment accounts.
What's funny is that people in this very comment section have done the same. I didn't pay a dime in taxes on my home down payment.
he posts every relevant debate
@@chaoky where is the serfs one?
Destiny became Dave Rubin in this debate
You mean he platformed a radical and agreed with most of his policy suggestions?
When was the last time Dave Rubin advocated a high minimum wage - which Destiny does in this debate?
Just as the overton window in America has moved very far to the right, the overton window on the internet within the political left broadly has moved so far to the left, that a socdem who supports a higher minimum wage is regarded as "Dave Rubin".
God help me.
I don't agree with Destiny a lot but that's just mean
Whether you agree with Mike politically or not, I like how he pushbacks on Destiny hard. Destiny all too often gets away with being aggressive with everyone he debates, and it’s great to see someone who doesn’t seem phased by it.
Sure except he was dead wrong the whole time lmao
burstingturtle yeah, these debates with Mike are by far the best lefty debates Destiny is doing. I love watching these
@@halo4evr124 Yeah, Destiny was wrong.
@@ktcool4660 In what way?
@@halo4evr124 This entire argument was pretty much useless from all sides though
Normally destiny does really good in debates, and is willing to admit where his knowledge might fail him, and lead to an improperly formed opinion.
Normally.
Nah you just get fooled normally.
Normally.
@@blitz8425 wait what? You think I'm defending him? Lmfao your reading abilities must be just like his.
Yeah this just shows how it's just you that normally gets fooled by him.
@@imgayasheck595 fooled? Yeah alright. Look destiny is a pretty logical guy, and even when i disagree with him, its not necessarily because his argument is inherently flawed, but here it is.
What you said was vague, and worded poorly. Its not my reading skills, but your writing ones.
He can debate much better than this, but this part here has never been true: " and is willing to admit where his knowledge might fail him."
He always doubles down when pressured, no matter how stupid his position becomes. Look at the McDonalds' debate with MrMouton where Destiny argues that the manager should kick out kids out of the restaurant when they tell them that someone threatened to shoot them, and the reason why the manager should kick them out and potentially get shot is because the kids where noisy and disrespectful before.
@@PowermateV100 id have to watch that debate that sounds a little too simplified
this is like watching a kid be in disbelief that bad people exist because Superman is supposed to stop them.
Oh boy I love Destiny/Mike debates.
Mc Bubblebuns me too!
Lol destiny now knows what its like to be a republican that has opinions based in feelings. Mike won this debate.
You're joking right? The left constantly uses emotion in politics.
@@skillbopster Smh. No.
@@TheEbonyEngineer ??????????????? Yes we do
When Destiny pulled out ms paint we didn’t think it could get any worse, then he pulled an Econ undergrad student into the discord and was forcefully asking Mike to share his credentials.
After the debate Destiny and the college kid were looking up what Juris Doctor was on google.
It was fucking embarrassing.
Don't worry, his chat was spamming Mike didn't understand 'rational'. Amazin'
How was the housing crisis not the premo example of how companies destroy themselves for short term gains???????
The federal government started the crisis through massive credit creation and low interest rates.
@@andydavis3075 cc. ceb n n,f%%,'your xx", ;; y , x xc f'
@@andydavis3075 lol!
Beezus C Hrist How the fuck did you jump from the causes of the 2008 crisis to warhawks to medicare and drug prices all in the same paragraph
@@andydavis3075 doesnt change the fact that lenders knew they were committing fraud and knew it was a house of cards.
Damn, the left leaning debates are so much more fun to watch and engage in. The title is also hardcore misleading since Destiny often seems to debate people who are legitimately intellectually unequipped or outright subnormal. I thought I'd be the only one siding with Mike here, but it seems I'm far from alone.
Well because most leftist if we are being honest have more serious and diverse convos compared to right wingers whos only discussions are either about why cant i use the n word or white genocide
Nah son. We all see it.
You are confusing talking fast in a shouting contest on stream with intelligence. I don't know why you think they have anything to do with each other.
Destiny is the biggest victim of his ego. He has all of the capability to understand the context for all this shit but he has to engorge from the trashcan of ideology to maintain his brand.
bingo
Destiny is a poster child for the dunning kruger effect in this video
Indeed.
I've been saying this for a long time
Debate Richard Wolff
Seriously, this would just end all of destiny's shit takes in one fell swoop
He would unironically get destroyed
You mean get crushed by Richard Wolff.
Wolff is too nice. Make him debate Mark Blyth. I want blood.
He won’t. He’s not *that* stupid lol
Destiny gets Triggered and Destroyed in this debate, Mike is Hassan’s Substitute.
Traveled from Hassan to Destiny to Mike???
It’s actually hilarious seeing people spitefully supporting mike in the comments knowing what we all know about him now
what do we know> catch me up
@@tada3399 he’s a grifter that doesn’t care about politics nearly as much as padding his own wallet. He’s said specifically that he doesn’t do local politics is because even though he would likely have a greater impact on the world around him, he would also lose viewers
Cry more
Destiny often says he argues out of people's own self interest more than any moral arguments. When it comes to corporations, executives and shareholders, their actions aren't influenced by self interest. They have enough checks and balances. A forty year history is not a big enough sample size for evidence. I'm sorry but this idealized vision of a technocratic society is problematic and a major reason for the drastic level of income inequality.
lol wut
@@sphericaltime Are you trolling? He's talking about marginal taxes for ceo desensitization through a technocratic society
Mike from PA hairlined destiny into the ground in this debate. All hail Mike from PA.
Hail!
Sobek blesses Mike
This aged well xd
Destiny has become a hack really. 3 obvious points he apparently can't or chooses not to grasp.
#1. Between accelerating launches, investing in new markets, wage increases, company infrastructure, company debt and many other expenses 'extra cash from a company can very easily be used for things besides stock buybacks. It's not just R&D, but AOC used it as an example because it is the largest single expense, but also the expense that is most likely to increase the value of the company in the long-term.
#2. A dividend pays out regularly and generally pays out slightly more if the company does better. This has no relation to who works there. Stock options are inherently corrupt. Members of the board can use stock options after a year with a tiny profit and still buy a significant portion of the company's stock. This is with insider product knowledge usually over a year out as well. These members can buy tons of stocks at perhaps a going rate of $6 and then 8 months later already 3 months after a very good product launch, they can sell a lot of those shares for $10. With a buyback, they can use the extra cash after a buyback and suddenly raise salaries for just the board by 20%. Either way, they make money in a way in which the average shareholder can not. Yes, sometimes options can only be exercised after leaving the company, but product development takes 3-4 year. Much longer than these periods, and often these periods have a time-frame, but not the clause that the board member must leave the company first.
#3. We have plenty of data to show that companies do better with buybacks, while the average worker makes nothing extra. In a vacuum this seems fine because the point of a company is to make a profit. But Destiny ultimately fails to realize that AOC is talking about what can help the average American the most. Buybacks absolutely can not fulfill this goal. If they are not an option, R&D and every other possible investment will help either the general public or the workers. The best way to reduce inequality of the company what AOC proposed. Mandate that funds which are not spent on R&D, infrastructure and debt be payed out to employees equally. The monetary compensation without stocks already incentivizes the board to be the board. We don't need systems that further prop up those already making the most money.
I was with you on #1 and #2, and you explained the position much more clearly than the caller, thank you for that. I 100% agree that repurchasing stock has the risk of being abused and needs tight regulation. I don’t agree on #3, your conclusion, though, because it just isn’t the government’s place to tell anyone what they can and can’t invest in. What about a small business who has an equity owner that isn’t cutting the mustard (happened to me)? My partner and I bought him out because it was the right move for the company. We would have gone out of business if we kept him on. This is the same thing as a stock buyback, just with a private, small company instead of a large, publicly traded one. No one will be able to convince me that it should be illegal for me to have bought out the other owner, when that decision was of paramount importance for our company’s future.
If you go down that path, you might as well throw out the entire concept of private property. The problem with the idea of forcing the extra profits to be paid out to workers is that it disincentivizes the risk/reward inherent to capitalism. Those jobs have to come from somewhere. Starting a business is brutal. It takes a certain combination of naivety and tenacity to even bother trying, and another good amount of luck for it to work to any meaningful degree. Disincentivizing folks from taking that risk by so severely reducing the potential reward will absolutely reduce the number of people willing to take that risk and start new companies, thereby the total number of jobs (majority of jobs are created by small businesses, not the mega corps). The people who have jobs might enjoy less income disparity between themselves and the owners of the company they work for, but it will be at the expense of not just the owners’ reduced profits, but also at the expense of the people no longer earning wages at all, who will then need to be propped up with more social safety nets, leading to increased taxes, which will take a bite out of the additional employee income. That’s my take anyway.
I think the root of the Capitalism vs Socialism debate that hardly ever gets discussed is really the crux of these issues, and that’s the psychology of motivation coupled with the strata of human tendency towards competitiveness vs cooperativeness. I think it’s pretty born out by research that we tend toward competitive first and cooperative second, meaning that potential for individual reward is core to economic motivation.
@@jefftravilla it's 100% the government's place to tell corporations (not people) what to do, corporations are creations of The State.
If investors think restrictions on Stock Buybacks (which used to be illegal, by the way) are too odious, they don't have to take the limited liability protections The State is affording them.
If investors don't want to play by the rules of The Federal Government, SEC, and State Governments, they can make direct investments and be personally liable; nobody's stopping them.
A corporation is no more “created by the state” than a human being/citizen is. Sure, legislative and justice enforce parameters of liability, but these parameters are based on the idea that a corporation is its own thing, not a terribly complex or abstract idea. Since the rationale behind enforcing corporate liability issues is that a corporation is a distinct legal entity, it follows that it should move through society and the economy as such. Turning cherrypicked screws to crank a little money juice down the funnel is not the mechanism by which to address inequality. Reducing barriers to entry into markets that cause monopolies, solving price fixing, getting more folks motivated to take a risk on a idea, bolstering small business and competition... that’s how you do it. I own a small business and there is reverse inequality in my company - half of my employees each make more than I pay myself. But without the possibility that if I play my cards right and get a little lucky that there might be a worthwhile reward down the line, why would I bother doing this when my present labor would easily go for double what I’m paying myself now? You have to incentivize people to have that kind of drive and sacrifice.
About buybacks... restrictions and rules seem appropriate whereby the restriction is based on the owners’ will. For example, only allowing it with some percentage of shareholder approval in a vote, maybe more than just the controlling stake so that the smaller owners have a voice. That seems super reasonable. Or in any buyback, requiring a certain % sold to come from executive holdings - that could be a manner by which to reduce incentive to pump and dump, although I don’t see much evidence of this actually happening.
Has become a hack implies he once wasn't
@@jefftravilla you are incorrect; corporations are literally Incorporated by The State.
If States didn't grant limited liability to Corporations, they wouldn't have them, and wouldn't exist.
"the SEC will stop them!"
LOL does Steven understand who the administration is currently
@@beezusHrist not sure if serious?? Theres very few things i trust less than American institutions, who literally buy politicians and laws so they can do whatever the fuck they want
@@emer7802 Tell that to Destiny, not him lol
To be fair, the SEC has largely been a joke under most administrations. However, Trump's admin is taking to a whole new level.
@@MrManifolder Bush was worse
"the police will stop criminals"
6:45 Somebody tell Destiny what Bain Capital is, and what Mitt Romney did.
@dane lol exactly
@@beezusHrist WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT REMEMBER??? THAT IS THE SUPIDIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD, LET ME SPEAK! LET ME SPEAK! THAT IS SO DUMB!
He's a high school grad who got interested in politics a few days ago. How could he know?
@@beezusHrist He was a conservative back then.
How do you think Mitt Romney made his money Destiny?
Biased point of view, making 400k$/year
46:57 And here, finally, we see Steven's true mentality coming out. He has this image in his head of a simple-minded, naïve, idealistic leftist arguing from broad strokes and general feelings, and he spends his time making arguments against THAT person, and not against Mike. That's why Steven jumps to all these very hyperbolic "oh YOU'RE saying that is ALWAYS bad" type statements and accuses Mike and AOC of having a "basic" level of economic understanding at best: he's been refusing to actually take anything they say seriously, and interprets anything they say under the most childish possible set of assumptions.
Holy shit: Steven's arguing against a straw-man of his opponent *in real-time, to their face*!
holy fuck a read
I kinda of pick that up as well. I just don't know shit about stocks to be confident in that thought.
I don't know economics and have no opinion on stock buybacks good vs stock buybacks bad, but Destiny clearly strawmanned Mike repeatedly in this, almost never let him finish a point even when he was only 1 or 2 sentences into saying something, and screamed and shouted like a maniac. This could have been an interesting discussion and I could have actually learned from it, but alas.
Also, I gotta say, while I find it plausible that AOC may have made some dumb or incorrect statements, I find it pretty dubious when I hear someone without an economics degree calling someone with one "economically illiterate". Especially when he seems unwilling to actually hear out any arguments to the contrary on their own merits rather than converting them into hyperbolic strawmen.
Spazzy Stephen Gaslighting titles are amusing.
I hope you know that Steven does not choose the titles of these videos.
@@UnlimitedAuthority wow going with the Ben Shapiro argument?
@@legendofshaunesquire3014 Wow, going with the non-argument argument.
@@UnlimitedAuthority it's an argument by way of example. It's like citing sources. You'd have to know the context of the original argument, but it's still an argument.
@@UnlimitedAuthority It's Steven's content, he's responsible for their titles as well.
I usually agree with destiny on most things . But as an economics major , he's wrong on stock buy backs.
Destiny went full neoliberal in this debate
Getting to the point where Destiny cares more about appearing smart than being right or learning something. Do a modicum of research before screaming
Nah, you're just waking up to what was always going on
Are you really on here saying this bullshit when it’s MikefromPA? You know, the number one spite driven weasel asshole on this platform
I actually don't understand what destiny point is here, Mike is admittedly in my limited understanding making a lot more sense like I understand what Destiny is saying but yeah the difference seems to be continued interest in the company right Mike?
Fighting dumb leftie economics
Destiny's point is that regardless of whether you do stock buybacks or payout dividends both of these options do the same fundamental thing. Mike isn't able to accept this because in doing so he has to concede that AOC's opinion on stock buybacks is stupid, which isn't going to happen since he is clearly sided with her. So instead of just realizing that they are in reality the same thing, even though buybacks can be abused (2008 market crash), Mike is prolonging this "debate" by trying to state that buybacks are bad.
Dest doesnt understands that long-term shareholders are workers who create pensions lol
@UCVAUMdMPT8fumsSWN9aLbuw when i was referring to her opinion it was with regards to what she actually said which was that stock buybacks should be illegal and that equity should instead go to dividends or R&D, which aren't the best options sometimes. Also trickle down theory is dumb i agree.
I don´t even get the argument after half a hour, sounds like mike just describes an example how this buy backs can lead to insider trade which is pretty illegal already and i don´t quite get what the recession has to do whit any of this. I mean i don´t see the issue because it is like the easiest to prove financial crime you could think of committing.
Way more entertaining than watching Destiny debate chuds.
Why because hes getting owned
Abobo whatever makes you feel better
@@TheSethcast pretty much. I kinda like Destiny being the heel in these debates lately
@@PacifistBetaFish Me too. At least the fight isn't totally one-sided. In these debates, I often see Destiny make good points and bring a moral outlook that is different from that of progressives. But he also makes wrong statements (especially about history) and lets his anger cloud his judgment.
Chuds are so obviously wrong about everything debating them is a public service for people on the fence so they don't fall into error. It's really fun - up to a point. Then it gets boring.
@@BoggiFroggy But thats whats happening here lmao.
The 30 minute mark shows something interesting. What a lot of these shareholders are doing probably should be looked into by the SEC. The government should be controlling the abuse. But they are not. It is interesting that Destiny is against AoC, because it seems that he is on board with what SHOULD happen. Mike is telling him what IS happening.
That is exactly what makes Destiny so unbelievably irritating, he is basically arguing for no reason. His brand is built on being the guy who is level headed and moderate, so he has to bash AOC regardless of her positions. He doesnt want to find the truth in these debates, he clearly only wants to be right and pad his ego. Such a fucking child.
@@aibrainlet8041 Yeah. I dont get it. I got attracted to this channel when he was dismantling JonTron's bullshit and cats like NoBullshit, but this is just getting weird.
Mike doesn't know what's happening, he's painting a hypothetical.
@@aibrainlet8041 No one can really know what's happening until an audit is concluded. The problem is Mike is stuck on his own perception that buybacks are inherently evil and greedy, but the very mechanism is also beneficial to the stockholders and thus the company. It's extremely dishonest for Mike and AoC to paint buybacks as evil, when it's not the act of it is evil, but how the companies are conducting these buybacks.
@@Mercy5783 there is alot wrong with your statements. But it's late right now and I can't afford to spend 2 hours thinking this through. The impact on the economy for a major company to go belly up has a much greater impact than hundreds of employees, if not thousands of employees being laid off. Travel was severely hit, in a market that was already stretched thin. I think the issue most tankies face is understand how business is operated; instead of acknowledging that companies go as far as possible to remain relevant and competitive, they will quote facts of buybacks with outrageous numbers with the implication of absolute corruption instead of looking at the bigger picture.
I only saw the intro and I have two loans out on my 401k with no need to show hardship.
Yeah, unfortunately Destiny really only has a surface level understanding of financial topics and talks out his ass constantly. Listening to him saying how getting a dividend and selling a stock are the same thing makes me fucking cringe. He talks so fast and so confidently though that a lot of people don't recognize that he's either intentionally lying or really has no idea what the fuck he's talking about.
@𝓛𝓸𝓼𝓽 𝓲𝓷 𝓗𝓮𝓪𝓿𝓮𝓷 So dividends and stock buybacks are only theoretically the same if everyone sells the stock at the same proportion, which in big companies is completely impossible anyway. Dividends are payments on share, and buyback decrease the pool of stock, making what is left over more valuable.
A dividend doesn't change the percentage of what you have. If you had 15.12345% of the stock, that won't change at all, nor will anyone else's ownership percentage. A stock buyback is going to change SOMEONE's percentages, because the pool is shrinking. If you owned 10% but the pool shrinks by half, congrats you now own 20%.
My understanding is that the real issue with buybacks is that the CEO can inflate the value of what they hold by shrinking the pool. If they're given options at $15, and they increase the price to $30, they just made $15 of profit out of nothing. What Mike from PA should have pointed out is that Destiny was only looking at the company and the money OVERALL and not from the perspective of a single CEO shareholder. That's where they no longer have to think about the company as a whole but as a single shareholder.
Lmao I believe RUclips comments as much as I believe there are real Trump supporters
@@itsallawork5756 if you don't know you can take out a 401k loan at your pleasure, without having to show hardship, you're a reprehensible dumbass.
@@sphericaltime when you issue a dividend, the share price will fall accordingly because value is leaving the company and going into the hands of shareholders. When you do buybacks, you can reissue shares in the future and recapture that increased share price s an alternative to borrowing. There’s nothing wrong with buybacks as a tool. It all depends on your cost of capital and your strategy.
Destiny borrowed against his own investment in this debate
Destiny's stocks got seized by tankies in this debate.
Mike: h-
Destiny: wait wait wait wait!
Margin loans Are very common. Destiny doesn’t understand enough to have a thoughtful opinion.
I've never seen Destiny be so disingenuous in a debate. He's so desperate to disagree with every little thing
When was he disingenuous? Time stamp the momentet, I must have missed it.
@@UnlimitedAuthority anything regarding dividends, borrowing against stocks, and just generally rephrasing all of the other guys points when he couldn't argue against them
@@Daedrex was the other guy disingenuous as well when he ''rephrased stevens argument because he could not argue against them'' or was it that both misremember/misheard the others argument
@@Daedrex If that's why he's disingenuous, you must have thought he was disingenuous towards the right-wingers he debates as well. Destiny has always done this, you're just mad now because you don't already agree with his conclusion.
@@UnlimitedAuthority He does it all the time. I was stating that I dont remember him doing it this blatantly before. You don't need to be so defensive friend.
* Clicks on video *
Destiny:"LSJSJSKSKSKSKSKKKJJCHCHCHXJSHDHCJ"
Me: "Oh he must be debating us socialists again"
20:40 - 23:15
Best part
Holy Shit how far some can fall. Destiny this was a low moment not going to lie. Personally not impressed with the responses or with the over the top anger. This made AOC look even better to me haha. Really had the opposite effect that I think you intended to have. This could have been a discussion with some potential in my opinion haha.
Jesus Christ WHY does Steven have to scream like a psycho!??! I get being passionate but, its too much.
It's the sound of his ego death.
I used to think that until my Ex who was totally disconnected from reality very frequently just assumed she was correct always and it is absolutely infuriating
He is debating reals over feels
They both scream a lot...
@@ghosty0612 At the beginning of the video Destiny is just growling. Lol.
This is a ridiculous conversation. There are good and bad things with stock buybacks. it appears that it is currently being abused for executive gain in larger companies, but not all buybacks are. The problem is there is an artificial incentive to engage in buybacks as opposed to intelligent reason for them. Destiny is being pedantic by explaining what the stock buybacks are meant to do, and ignoring the abuse, and context in which they are being made. The tax cuts were a supply side stimulus to spur wage increase and job creation in order to ease some of the economic insecurity for the labor force... they are not being used for that. Mainly because companies dont create jobs based off of cash flow, but based off of demand. This abuse was predictable.
Yeah AOC's whole point is to re-frame the dishonest talking points of the right.
"Oh Trump and the Repubs say that the Tax Cuts will be used to pay higher salary for workers."
AOC responds with, "No, they are just using the money to do Stock Buybacks and bolster the position of Capital Holders."
Why is Destiny being obtuse on this?
@@20shitzngiggles I think his confrontations with Hassan gave him spikes in viewership, and he is pivoting his debates towards the left. Many of his arguments seem disingenuous from my perspective. Sort of "well this is how it works" completely ignoring the is ought fallacy that brought me to his channel in the first place. I'm not looking for someone to just mouth the words I want to hear, but I don't think he's arguing in good faith with anything revolving around AOC. I think it's just red meat for clicks, which is his right but disappointing.
Destiny got angry in this debate
Doesn’t he always get angry?
I don't have any sources for this, but I have headed in other convos/debates about how the super rich borrow against their stocks and that's how they get around laying taxes
Wealth generated by his stock? Can you expand on this?
@@beezusHrist OK but if he sells his stock, he pays taxes on that, right? I thought the point was to borrow against the value of the stock I.e. get a tax free loan from the bank instead of selling up.
@@WayoftheDave do you know how low the interest rates are for a man who's the owner of the company that hosts 63% of the webservices online including ones provided by google, apple, twitter, baidu, netflix, facebook, twitch, ESPN and BBC, have you noticed how some of these corporations are in some cases directly competing with amazon? curious isn't it?, the only time they actually want to get paid out in dividends is when they waited long enough for them to get a republican elected and then suddenly a sweet tax deal manages to suddenly convinced the shareholders to want to get their share in dividends from the TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF CASH RESERVES CORPORATIONS HAVE IN TAX HAVENS. Really gets the noggin a hoggin doesn't it?, really klanks those cranks, really trounces my bounces, really fucking dunks the cunks don't it?
They're not selling their stock to buy stuff, like my man said continually doing that would lower their stake in the company. I was listening to another podcast with a guy who's a millionaire (like a 10 mil net worth type of dude) and pretty much what we was saying is that these millionaires and billionaire pretty much go to a bank and say, "I want to borrow, 10 mil to buy this house and Malibu, and then these rich dudes with either pay them in stock so they don't pay any taxes on the money, or if your rich enough the bank would rather give you the money, and they'd rather have you owing them a favor, so you essentially get the money for free, because having you tied to them is more valuable to them than having 10 mil in your company stock, and the transaction being over.
"The economic anarchy of capitalism is the root of all evil." Albert Einstein
@@WayoftheDave and you are a capitlist bootlicker
Man me being a destiny fan has been a fucking rollercoaster of emotion for me this years
You're telling me, and it was a hell of a ride. Time to get off.
He's really testing us. It's like a toxic relationship.
Stop the idol worship, get off his ride and start your own journey
It's a rare event to find an OMNILIBERAL v COMMIE debate since post-Cold War lul
Mike isn’t a Commie
What's an omniliberal?
@@KingOfShenanigan a person that debates everyone in politics with liberal views plus someone who steals your girl
@@ShimonYaqulu 🤨 🙃
Destiny saved me from the far-right, while also converting me to libertarian socialism due to how horrible he is at debating the left. Thank you?
hahahaha
All seriousness destiny- I like you. Titles like this make me worry about you. Don’t be so hard on yourself, we all say stupid things
Destiny is a bit economically illiterate. Stock buybacks are a normal think is USA, but in Europe this is not something usually. For example a company like Bosch or BMW even can't do that, one is NGO and the other one is a family business. This means Bosch should invest all the time the profits in something, that something is in general research.
This take is more retard than Mike’s
Who will win: AOC's econ degree or Destiny's MS Paint doodle 🤔
I cant even watch this one. Mike is right, and Destiny keeps screaming like he is correct and "teaching" Mike something. If Destiny would shut up for a second, he might learn something.
Mike is wrong
@@wandarah except he's not. Stock buybacks are illegal in most nations (and used to be in the USA) for a reason. It only serves to hurt the economy and help corporate executives. There's zero added benefit to the economy for stock buybacks. Maybe take an economy class son.
@@wandarahMike is brain-rotted in his own right, which made him the wrong person to counter Destiny’s arguments, but Destiny is absolutely wrong about how executive compensation works. I’ve worked my entire career in Corporate America, with a speciality in Compensation, no less, and I winced at the numerous things he got wrong in the first seven minutes alone.
Destiny got triggered in this debate.
AOC has an econ degree and graduated with honors, Destiny is a twitch gamer. Case closed.
Funny point, and I agree with the sentiment, but try not to argue from authority.
mansplaining at its finest
Ted Cruz graduated from Harvard with honours and clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor. Case closed.
You fucking moron.
@@jamesclement8985 this is fallacious as well, because Ted Cruz went for something completely unrelated to econ or many things he's wrong on, Ted Cruz went to be a lawyer, which he was for a while.
@@januaryloyd8932 fair point, but still relevant
Halfway through the Debate Destiny realises he’s got it all wrong. Ds ignorance just got exposed.
Imagine casually turning this on in front of your manager and district manager thinking your phone is connected to Bluetooth and the first 5 seconds of this vid plays on max volume.
Yes that just happened and I am typing from home as I was sent home. Thank you Destiny.
Shit...
Destiny is killing me here. Mike is saying that rich people are taking out loans on investments to circumvent tax. His stance is that the value of paying interest outweighs paying tax AND losing shares/control.
Centrist/capitalist Destiny is pretty pathetic. He's better at disassembling right wing ideologies simply by asking "why" or "how" of their positions and watching them crumble as they struggle to answer surface level questions, but when he actually has to know and contest left wing ideas, he sure isn't too informed.
"AOC is economically illiterate". She has something in common with Destiny then kek
@FreeRoamFantasy So what? I've known people who cheated through college by copying everything their friends do.
FreeRoamFantasy If you know anything about AOC, her positions, her statements, and her history, you’ll know she’s completely disconnected from reality when it comes to economics.
FreeRoamFantasy What do you mean by ‘actor’?
FreeRoamFantasy So if I was honest, I wouldn’t be negatively evaluating AOC’s abilities?
FreeRoamFantasy I used the word “illiterate” because it’s an accurate description of her. According to Merriam-Webster, illiterate means “showing or marked by a lack of acquaintance with the fundamentals of a particular field of knowledge”. People who take politics seriously don’t take her seriously.
“What’s the difference between selling your shares and getting your money as a dividend.” Is the moment destiny lost the debate.
So if AOC was talking about stock buybacks versus R&D, why was the majority of the conversation on stock buybacks versus dividends? Also, I don't know what quote started this, but it seems like the point would be to illustrate that the corporations have so much money that they have nothing better to do with it than these huge amounts of stock buybacks.
Stephen "I'm super far left" Parnell seems to be against all things the left is for. Dave Rubin vibes all around
LegendOfShaun Esquire Feminist, Black Lives Matter kid, Take everyones money to give them mass scale social programs, Atheist, does not care for ones country, identity, values, or morality. He's also a hypocrite which is a big thing in the left. How is steven against the left?
@@Azrael.777 nice strawman
wisetrollman that's not a strawman, that's the truth. Unless you want to actually rebuttal the point.
@@Azrael.777 How exactly is he a hypocrite? Please substantiate your point.
@@Azrael.777 well when you support practically every corporate argument. You are not really doing a good job on your advocacy for all those things you listed.
Also, I love how Destiny put his freakout yelling about how securities-based loans don't exist. He's 100% wrong and he was nice enough to put it upfront so we know what to expect from this.
But at least we can fake laugh and spam straw man arguments
OG Destiny viewers can tell he's enjoying debating with Mike, despite the occasional blood gridlock seen in his head's veins.
Destiny, yes, you can borrow against up to 50% of your Equity. This is very common, and in fact is one of the ways people go bankrupt when stock markets crash. EDIT: this is called "Security Based Lending." and is the most common way the very rich purchase things, by borrow liquid asset against equity and paying it back at stupid low interest. It's a huge business in Wall Street.
This debate was actually bucking awesome and hilarious to listen too. One of the better ones on Destinys channel.
I just borrowed against a stock portfolio to buy real estate.
Also borrowing against your 401k is a great strategy to buy property.
Destiny doesn’t know what he’s talking about
Reaction to this video seems really negative. But to me, Mike doesn't seem to be able to answer any of Destiny's points. What is the downside of allowing stock buybacks? Seems to me like a normal aspect of capital markets.
Destiny screaming whenever he doesn’t understand a simple economic concept just lost him this debate.
This is EXACTLY what he does 24/7.
the difference is that dividends are promised to shareholders prior to performance results, while share value (growth) changes based on the analysis of other companies/analysts, so the dividend can't be timed because everybody knows what it is long before it gets paid out. if you are more knowledgeable than the average idiot and find yourself in the position of the CEO and can orchestrate a buyback, it would be brain dead simple to guarantee a short-term increase at which point you could time your selling throughout the guaranteed increase value window.
also "Enron"
Destiny having a discussion with socialists these past weeks is GOLD ✨✨✨
Destiny reached critical MALD levels in this debate.
"When you need to borrow money, you might qualify for an unsecured personal loan, but you can typically get better terms and interest rates with a secured loan. A margin account with your investments broker is a type of secured loan that uses your investments as collateral"
Is this a quote from a debate or just info on margin accounts? 🤣
@@januaryloyd8932 Just info on margin accounts from google LMAO
@@yishaqdavid2029 wow this was so easy to google how could a neolib get this so wrong 🤣🤣
@@januaryloyd8932 Destiny has been really pissing me off lately. The way he debates is like Ben Shapiro.
Destiny was wrong about borrowing against shares, but this isn’t the counterpoint lol. When you borrow against your securities, you use an SBLOC.
Destinys obsession with reducing everything down to the simplest form completely derailed his entire position this time. There is so much contextual importance in this debate that he completely ignored.
Tbh.... the guest won on most issues here.
Friendship ended with Destiny
Mike from PA is my new best friend
ITS SIMPLE ITS SIMPLE SCREEEEEEEEEE ITS SIMPLE ITS SIMPLE IM RIGHT SCREEEEE. just some tips I picked up from destiny on debating and discussing topics
Thats because he is making a point and rather than refuting the point, as Destiny tends to do as you should in a debate. They just jump to something else or just say nuh uh. I can see why he gets frustrated, rather he is correct on a topic or not.
Destiny got liquidated in this debate
Destiny needs to take both macro and micro economics, he would get a failing grade based on his current arguments.
Mike made destiny waste his ult with the shear stupidity