This episode was recorded on 26th July 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: on.soundcloud.com/8WFDZAvB1Ca6gGGY7 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
IMO the best way to tackle this discussion (lets assume 6v6 is a bust), is to literally follow how paladins work their max hp in correlation to overwatch is 400-500 for tanks 180-220 for dps and supports in the range of 200-250. The next basic and necessary fix is let an ultimate be an ultimate. The only way to counter ults should be is run away far far far away or counter ults.
6 v 6 but 1 Tank 3 DPS 2 Support or 1 Tank 4 Dps 1 Support sense it's mostly an FPS anyways and people get bad when they need sheilds to play the game lols
The number of players doesn’t matter. It’s the number of people queueing per role. That’s why queue times are still shit Yippeeeeeee heehee haha (obv if you’re low elo it’s not gonna apply to you)
Spilo's idea for a cinematic with 5 man group lead by Zarya struggling on a mission only to get saved by Rein making a 6v6 team would hit like a truck and save the game by itself if they ever released that with 6v6. Got chills thinking about that...
@@erjohn5404flats suggesting a shakeup every now and then has to be one of the worst things ow has done. I love how whenever we talk about 6v6 and stuff it's always to undo the shakeups because of how they screw over heroes.
@@Punchbadguy yeah its so braindead, when other games do shakeups its them adding new stuff to the game not changing the games foundation, the only reason ow devs wanted to do shakeups its because they know that from the last 2 years the game will never be balanced enough to be stable long term in 5v5
Please initiate Spilo into the core avengers. He is just unmatched. He knows how low elo players play, has coatched one of the greatest and most unique Ow esports teams to ever be and also doesn't play the game enough to burn out like all the twitch ranked grinders do or did. He is my favorite, most nuanced and feedback orientated creator (at least) in this space and I love the dynamic with my favorite podcast host SVB. Also love Freedos 'no perfect solution, only tradeoffs' line.
Spilo's legit. I don't always agree with him in terms of his views, but I can always trust him to put his ego aside and recognize a fair point when it's made. Every convo I've heard him be a part of was made better because he was there.
Season 12. But the real question is. Where are my perma ow1 avoids blizz. If the player base is bigger. Then give me a list that I can edit. If I want to avoid 100 people and have to manually untick them to get games again then that's my choice
Custa's always had an insider persperspective, so he should always be given the benefit of the doubt. I suspect the devs didn't seriously consider returning to 6v6 until the last couple of months, and still the blogpost HEAAVILY favors 5v5 for queue times, engine load (for example, switch can't handle 6v6 currenlty), rebalancing the entire roster, and alienating millions of players that prefer 5v5. Custa was right for what he knew at that time, and I suspect the only reason 6v6 is being discussed by the devs right now is to minimize the amount of players interacting with Marvelwatch. It's a good blogpost, but I thought as a community we were done fully believing OW dev promises given for "several seasons" from now.
I don't hate Freedo but god I don't like how he always trys to invalidate a high ranked players opinion because they are high ranked. I'm plat and I don't want the game to be less skillful because "metal rank players aren't as good as high ranked players and will never be as good so just make the game easier for them", I would rather learn and improve at a game that rewards skill rather than passively giving value based on the role you are on.
I wouldn't say that it's just that historically our content creators talk within terms of their own bubble and since they're voices are the loudest their views have stronger staying power on the community despite not being representative at all. Case in point people saying Reinhart is bad whilst he's actually REALLY good for 99.6% of the player base but that 0.4 swears up and down that he's horrible. I've always felt like freedo and spilo are the only content creators that speak for the average player
@@metazeenfreddo doesnt speak for the average player. He uses it as exuse to defend blizzard. He says that average player loves counterswaping for example.
@cesarjairrojasfuentes7440 What's less skillful about the game, though? In 5v5, you have more individual carry potential since one less tank isn't blocking you. The fact of the matter is that for a vast majority of the playerbase, the teamwork and coordination isn't there regardless of format. Did you have games in OW1 where your team was synced up? Ofc but it wasn't nearly as consistent as high level play.
@@narcodixyadigg781 not having a second tank blocking you is a thing that makes it less skillful, you completely cut out any of the skill involved in playing around the two enemy tanks. having more carry potential in the form of run on flank and shoot enemy DPS is just less skillful of a gameplay loop. Not only is teamwork and coordination just a small piece of the puzzle here, but also you don't need the entire team synced for teamwork and coordination to be present, it's as simple as looking at your tanks/other tank and looking at what they are doing and going with their pace, seeing your tank go in and using your cooldown in conjunction, seeing your other tank in voice, you don't have to look at everything so black and white
It’s also funny because he acts like 5v5 caters to casual players, but casual players never cared about queue times because anything below diamond has like 3 minute queues at worst.
I don't like Freedo but I can see he tried being more reasonable this time round, so good for him. Honestly, Sam and him should play the 6v6 code together and make content out of it. That would be the good ending to this current chapter.
@@Twilight.Princessbruh what are yall on he literally he himself would thrive more in 6v6 and enjoy it but he was literally arguing for people who STRUGGLED in 6v6 and what Aaron was talking about in the dev blog. I seriously question if people even listen to the podcast and just comment something
@@Twilight.Princess you simply don’t know the guy and the struggles during these overwatch years. He would definitely switch up ideas if it revealed to be better (he always wanted draft initially)
Freedo: Tanks are unkillable in 6v6.... actually, they're killable but only by pros.... ok but noob friendly tankbusters don't count that's cheese! Is it either damage players or tank players that are suffering? Wait its both? Well um..... dying instantly on a tank is bad for the game! That goalpost is zooming faster than a Tracer main
As a gold player I fully understand what he was talking about. In OW1, it felt like bashing your head against the wall when trying to take even any first point. I love the fast pace more death match style of OW2.
@@deoxxys Ah yes the "we have the wrong Tank on our team so we get crushed" or "we have the right Tank so we crush them". The only thing fast paced is how quick I swap to counter their Tank.
Freedo saying that overpowered heroes is good for the game is wild, also him trying to say for casual players that tanks were unkillable in 6v6 is straight up FALSE, I’ve always been a metal rank player until the end of 6v6, and tanks were ALWAYS killable if u execute on them, exactly how Samito says it. Even during double shield, in lower ranks u could always kill tanks. Also queue times were NEVER that bad for lower ranks until the late part of the ow1, you know, when they ABANDONED the game with NO new content and u had to PAY to play the game. Of course queue times would be better, theres WAY more players now that the game is free to play, also I think queue times would NOT be bad if we go back to 6v6 like flats is saying because we have so many new and interesting tank designs that would fit really well in 6v6 when redesigned for it, like queen, ramattra, etc. Given that there’s a lot more content, more interesting tank heroes, queue times would not be an issue in 6v6 at all. Also idk why flats is so against 6v6 for queue times yet he’s suggesting 7v7??!! I can see how on paper that could do something but idk. Also 7v7 with 3 dps presents some issues like if there’s 3 dps their damage and impact would have to be nerfed a lot more, how viable would they be then? Would they lose their identities? I would much rather just go back to 6v6, a good format and one that we have more info on. I used to play tank and dps, but obviously tank got gutted in 5v5. I do NOT want to have my main role dps be gutted like tank in 5v5 because of another format change.
He always falls back on either tank synergy was too strong and lower ranked players struggled to kill them, or lower ranked players had terrible tank synergy and couldn't pull it off and have fun. Two opposite ends there but he frequently brings up one or the other.
It is more about the boom and bust. I am also perma metal rank, I was full held on kings row a lot in 6 v 6 due to tank mismatch, never happened in 5v5 as the difference is not as great. He always states that 6v6 had the highest highs and the lowest lows, 5v5 never reaches these high.. but ALSO not the 6v 6 lows. You also seem to be struggling with the role ratios problem that the devs and freedo have highlighted. It wouldn't matter if the entire planet played, if there are still 2-3 times more dps than tank players, it would have long queue times.
good points but flats isnt “so against” 6v6 he said multiple times this podcast he was almost a 6v6er but its queue times thats why he’s against it and 7v7 would bring back tanks synergies and help queues thats his point i would need to think more before i decide if its a good idea
@@cheesyburger2944 7v7 is a horrible idea, remember Jeff Kaplan himself saying that during the early testings of Overwatch other formats besides 6v6 felt wrong/too chaotic, you want unreadable chaos? 7v7 would be like Big Team Battle/Ground War but imagine it on OW maps, awful idea. Flats is just throwing shit ideas at the wall because he cant come up with any other reason to not be on the 6v6 train besides queue times(which is arguable but not a big enough reason because we dont have data on 6v6 for OW2, OW1 was abandoned and they made the Tank Role increasingly bad towards the end) and that his paycheck is in Blizzards hands so he doesnt ever want to bad mouth their decisions or justifications, so he has to tip toe his way around his opinions just to fence sit and not take a side to be safe. Flats makes decent points here and there but he doesnt ever pick a side and decide what he wants, thats why he just lets everyone else talk most of the time.
@@Melix0ff SVB: “Flats you’ve been quiet for a while what are your thoughts?” Flats: “Both sides bro, one side says one thing, and the other side says another thing. At the end of the day, both sides make both sides points for their side. Both sides have good points, and both sides have bad points bro. In the end, It’s just like two sides with different views.” SVB: “Well said, I agree.”
@@donovan4222god that is so fucking accurate. SVB is always crawling back to Flats only for the latter to airbend for 2 minutes and end up making no point.
@@kayanonohe said freedom lmao, why are you inserting Sam into the conversation? Yes they both yap but that doesn’t mean they get included by default every convo about how annoying they are or whatever
@@skyler7017 prolly because this comment section has a major hate boner for freedo. He can get into long tangents, but other people on the call are guilty of this too.
@@davidrich27 I like to hear Freedo talk, but "YourOverwatch" is most definitely going to be Shilling the Devs POV no matter what. everyone else has the opportunity to transition off OW. Think what you like but I value his opinion less because I think he has conflict of interest. Also im still salty I can't run the lobby duo tanking with my brother. so I'm Biased to Samito camp.
Yall keep letting freedo on this podcast and not checking him when he’s being hypocritical or contradicts himself and it’s infuriating. Stop letting him speak for casual players.
I think it won't be long until Flats gets there, considering he called both Freedo and Sam out on this episode. Though I think it was mostly directed at Freedo. Idk.. Freedo' latest video also has a meme referring to a tweet Samito made, where he put "really bro", or something like that. The name calling is just too childish, as I think was the point Flats made in this episode.
@@depthcharge5091 It’s funny how he acts like he speaks for the average player when it sounds like all of his takes were engineered in a lab to be as unpopular as possible. He sounds more like a contrarian than a guy who’s defending most players perspective.
The power fantasy can be enticing for many people, it's lazy, but it works. There's so many games in this hobby that offers that, but the power fantasy gimmick on "competitive" games is just dumb, people will pick the final boss of a fighting game, the allstar team on Madden, day 1 Brigitte, etc.. it's pointless, this is not supposed to be a "competition"?
This was an amazing episode to watch live, lots of interesting points and perspectives discussed, always love having these in the background when I'm grinding out a looter game, time flies. Thanks to all participants and the host SVB for making such a lovely show, I've never been into podcasts but this is just my favorite thing ever.
SVB I appreciate you very much for hosting these discussions. My only complaint is there is too much ranting going on and not enough back and forth. With this many people together I think it could be worth having a timer like Around the Horn. When Freedo talks for 10min, then Sam responds for 10min, then Flats interrupts to rant about 7v7 for 15min, it feels less like a discussion and more like people taking turns solo podcasting. Personally I also feel like 7v7 discussion in general is counterproductive bc it's just a pipedream when the devs haven't even figured out how to get 12ppl in the OW2 engine. I was disappointed to hear Flats shut down Freedo/Sam's back and forth just to rant about this non-option for 15min.
For real. I get that he has his own point of view that he stands by and he has a right to defend it but the way he does it is...its just akward. You said it right. Rather than focusing on the points he makes everyone starts focusing on the way he makes them.
Sam is actually way too nice to him. It's funny that it's the case given his toxic persona. But it's really been evident during this whole beef between them. Sam is constantly taking the higher road and I think it forced Freedo to try doing the same in this video. So maybe it's actually effective.
@@Chickentender77 it’s extremely irritating when Freedo is the only one in the chat being toxic, and everyone is doing a “both sides just have to calm down guys” routine
no shot Freedo is still saying tank synergy is why 5v5 is better? no 2cp and double shield . nerfed bap brig? More tanks now, 6v6 workshop code showing better gameplay. still misguided.
@@Drew-fn6rq I don’t know man, freedo reminds me of some of my friends, they genuinely dislike the game, can only play like 3 games max then have to swap games and always shit on the game but they still turn around and say they prefer 5v5 like you guys don’t play the game half as much as when ow1 was dying but you think ow2 is better…
@@probablysteven1325 I mean I consistently hit 200 on my battlepass and prefer 5v5. Tank in ow1 felt so much less fun and I would never touch it, but now it's my best role. Sure you absorb more cooldowns, but there's so much more agency and playmaking ability. The only thing I miss about ow1 is dps doomfist.
@@lukasg4807 sorry dude I gotta hard disagree with you, I believe it is an objective truth that tank is worse in ow 2 (considering everyone hates tank), and as far as playmaking ability goes I gotta disagree with you there as well. Tanks now can feel like 50 different wrong decisions and only a couple of right ones. Even flats at one point said that tank is much less about making the big aggressive play and much more about playing safe. Maybe you felt tank was less fun in ow 1 but the majority of people would strongly agree that tank is much worse now than it has ever been
@@lukasg4807 also this is kind of just an extra thing but I have no idea how you have managed to hit 200 on your battle pass consistently, I can never motivate myself to play that much in one season and when I do play a lot of games it’s absolutely miserable
I can't wait for 6v6 to be added so all of your nostalgia that you guys THINK you have for double tank will have a reality check. Cause ppl will quit this game and fuck up the que times even more lmao. Or did yall forget a mass majority also quit during the OW1 days too especially after the goats fiasco. I'm not trying to play World of Warcraft FPS again and neither are the new players who joined during OW2.
@@-.Outlaw.-not really. Svb is such a good podcaster because he brings different ideas to the same table. If everyone loved 6v6 and no one gave a fuck for 5v5 then there is no reason to have the podcast. This way we have: 6v6/dps guy, 5v5/support guy, middle/pro guy, tank/streamer guy, and the host (also supp player)
@@mvndoc Flats: “It’s just a case of both sides bro…both sides make both sides points for their own side and don’t think about the other side. Unlike me, I’m enlightened and see both sides good points and both sides bad points. Anyways, I think both sides just need to come together and make a good idea based on both sides ideas.” SVB: “Well said Flats, thank you for being the voice of reason.”
Yeah like it wasn't getting even close to bad energy until flats said what he said. I feel like him and freedo get uncomfortable with debate but cant/won't say so, so instead of letting the engaging convo continue we got a 10 minute patronizing lecture about being nice on the internet.
@@jakeatcheson3884 Im not so sure it's directed at the people in the call. Everyone but Flats seems pretty fine with debating and talking about these things. People act like Sam and Freedo hate each other, when that is very obviously not the case. I think it's more directed at the community and the comments under this video. Just a few comments up, is a dude who has commented some garbage under nearly every response. People need to be civil.
@mutant9137 fence sitters opinions are valueable, and Flats himself said it's because of the queue time data. Moderates are great in debates. But often times if someone is on the fence, if you can figure out whats keeping them on the fence, you can progress the debate. Instead of the two extremes going out and having a shouting match.
2:49:20 when freedo says thats he tries to talk with integrity made me mad he kept misconstruing sams points everytime sam, 2:09:35 “i cannot ever beat a tank in a 1v1 because of the stats and i cant make a play on them" freedo 2:10:27, not even a minute later "will tanks like getting 1 hit" and hes the one who talks about cherry picking lmao he makes a strawman out of anything sam says like sam didnt say he wanted to be able to insta delete a tank just that he wanted to be able to fight them and make plays and freedo instantly jumps to 1 hits and being bursted down. i know flats addresses it later but freedo doesnt change much throughout the blog. while sam does get aggresive, at least he acknowledges the points that are brought up around 5v5. i wish freedo was more open and actually would engage in a coversation, but it feels that he never really added anythinng beneficial and was just there so they could have a "5v5 person" and rage bait sam.
freedo is wrong, players care about winning with heroes they enjoy. if we are forced to play something we dont want to play to win we just wont play it or wont play at all.that "its easy just counter with something u hate to play" mentality is not a comp mentality its a pro or streamer mentality cause they are PAID to play, this is our fukin enjoyment so no i wont counter sym with phara mercy cause i fukin hate playing with it and the whole point of comp is not winning, its improving, why would i want to improve with something i hate??makes no sense and freedo clearly has mistaken a streamers or pro players mindset with the average player, cause we definetly have diferent insentives to play. we dont win shit when we win a match except joy, we dont get that joy when we play something we dont want and win, no one is subbing to us, no one is paying us to play, if the chemicals dont go off in the brain there is no point
Moth Mercy had a 100% pick rate in metal ranks dude, people hated her but she was picked in every single game during that patch of 6v6. The data does not prove what you say.
@headecas Your whole thesis is wrong that comp isn't about winning. Everything about it rewards you for winning. You can only rank up on a win. You get more comp points on a win. You only get the player title after getting 10 wins. You basically just want to play quick play open queue, and that's fine. But don't make assertions about the rest of the community.
I am so beyond tired of listening to freedo tell me what my experience with the game was. This guy who's been GM top 500 forever is telling me, a guy who's played in every rank bronze to diamond in ow 1 about how low rank was and what the experience was and the opinions of low rank players. I was there I experienced it I spoke to more metal rank players than he could ever imagine. He invoke this authority that he just doesn't have he cites low rank opinion and then spews the opposite.
That's why I am trying to build a platform to represent us because I have been dancing in all metal ranks climbing from bronze to plat and peaked diamond at one point. But it's hard af out here
Freedo sounds really pretentious lmao. If that’s how he sees himself then no wonder he sounds like he’s talking down to people a lot of the time. I feel like every person on the podcast aims to speak with integrity so what is he even trying to imply. Kinda off putting.
Flats is a literal troll. Devs finally address 6v6 and this guy insists it’s not a good option after all, and immediately sows the seeds of his next era of complainer content bringing up 7v7. At least he knows his audience 😂
Back in open Q days, RUclipsrs used to say 1/3 of your games are unwinnable , 1/3 unlosable, and it’s what you do with the other 1/3. Remember that? During open Q, when you loaded in, 2/3 of the games were decided in hero select. It was awful. People who remember it otherwise were top 500, kidding themselves, or didn’t really care about winning.
I mean I only really played ow1 a lot in 2018, and only peaked at 3496, but losing at the hero select was not that big of a deal. Most of the time you always had at least one tank and support, and even when you went out of spawn on 5 or 6 dps it wasn't like you had lost the game because the players who wouldn't swap were good enough to make it work, and it was very rare to be getting stomped and not have some players give in and swap. It was about as common as getting a leaver is in ow today. People were always in voice and wanted to work as a team, and if someone was having a bad game on dps they'd be able to swap off. Role queue removed so much of that incentive to work as a team and try to win. Now it feels like most of the playerbase (me included) just pick the hero they want to play, never talk in voice, and don't even think about synergising with their team.
I like how the first thing Freedo did was be like “I’m glad I defended these devs! This is so great!” After they put out a 6v6 blog post, even though he himself has been sh*tting on 6v6 for like a year and a half.
@@therealzahyramostly flats. Sure freedo can get annoying but his heart is in the right place. But flats is just such a cry baby. Later in the podcast he completely ruins the mood for absolutely zero reason, a good point but he of course used it in a way to feel superior. Flats is a Great player for sure but he's definitely filled with some sort of deep rooted ego issue
@@Setogayamari I don't think it was zero reason tbh. I noticed that Freedo was taking things too personally and as he was talking I was telling the TV "don't take it so personally Freedo my man, chill out, it's okay" and what do you know, not long after, Flats points it out. It seems not everyone caught on what was going on and thinks Flats said that out of nowhere but actually he did the right thing. There was a lot of tension coming from Freedo towards Samito and when Flats exposed this (politely, thankfully) suddenly you notice a shift in behaviour in both Freedo and Samito where they start complimenting each other on other achievements and foxusing on each other's positives. I actually don't like Flats but I'll give credit where it's due. And here, he did the right thing, the right way.
On the 2 hour mark, Freedo once again puts his foot in his mouth. "You state these things definitively as if they're objective, when it's your subjective opinion." Proceeds to make subjective statements RIGHT AFTER SAYING THIS as if they're objectively true. Sam usually speaks in the perspective of the players, high rank to low rank. Freedo almost always speaks about things from HIS perspective. How HE felt about things, what HE thinks other players might've feel or think. A big reason why people like Sam do VOD reviews is to ALSO get their perspective in totality. Freedo, Avrl, Jake, they're some of the few people that aren't healthy for the podcast. They don't argue, they try to prove their side right while downplaying the opposing arguement. Freedo does it all the time when he refers to Sam as a top tier player. SVB needs to realize this.
please stop inviting freedo, or at the very least stop him from talking for over half the total podcast. feels like he's filibustering every time he opens his mouth, just word vomit
The whole idea of "my tank picked a tank I can't synergize with so the game is over" being an anti-6v6 point will always be fucking stupid, because that's literally just how it works now. And that's how supports work too. If you pick two supports who don't work well together... you lose. If you're on your solo tank and your team doesn't pick heroes that can back you up (as a solo tank) you lose... it's the same shit as before but now instead of it being on the off tank's shoulders, it's not on the rest of the team, so it's arguably worse because now you have even more players who can fuck it up instead of just one.
@@Westbrook__ another thing that’s funny about this, tank synergies are pretty much non existent in the metal ranks. People just pick whatever they want and there is very little teamwork…so the people like Freedo who say they want to cater to the casual players shouldn’t be worried about tank synergies.
Freedo talking about "stats" and "facts" is like how the devs look at win rate/pickrates and think Kiriko isnt broken because her winrate is low yet also neglecting mercy because her win rate is high while being the 3rd most played support. Also at 2:00:00 I dont think freedo fully understood sam's argument. He wasn't saying that reaper will easily destory tanks and/or tanks will just explode because their healthpool is lower, sam was mainly stating that if a tank messes up and is put in a bad spot, he WILL die. Tanks in 6v6 are still arguably better in a 1v1 against most dps, but point is that when they mess up, they get punished. Simple. Tanks in 5v5 can mess up and still get punished, but its harder to do so especially alone. Also, as someone who's said that tanks are unkillable and oppressive in 6v6, its kinda crazy for him to go against that with the comments of reaper 3-4 shotting tanks in 6v6 and also say that gigabuffed tanks is what it has to be for 5v5 to work. Insanity.
I respect Freedo and his opinion, I don't mean this as any toxic hate, but man I really don't like most of his takes. He feels so unreasonable and ignorant at times. Whereas everyone else despite what side they're on are more logical, reasonable, and open minded.
Freedo says this all the time about ranked, trying to say it didn't come out forever, but that's just bullshit. The game came out on May 24. Ranked started June 28th, and the game didn't win the game of the year until December, so freedo is incorrect. Freedo just seems to be a shilling, moving the goal post, and trying to say things that are not true. Freedo doesnt want to have real discussions about this. Spilo is a great example of how to this should be discussed amongst flats and samito.
Fuck off with the shill shit. I was agreeing with you, read the word shill, and then disregarded your opinion entirely. If you want to be taken seriously, then put the word shill away. Blizz is not paying creators for opinions, they can barely pay their staff an industry standard wage ffs
@@Lord_Nikon33 Spilo and Samito are the only ones who actually have an honest and productive discussion. Freedo just gets mad and tries to win debate points, while Flats has no thoughts in his brain other than “both sides bro”
Do people even watch YourOverwatch videos anymore? Everything is fine with the other 4 but Freedo just brings arrogance, sarcastic compliments, and all around nobbery
People in the comments getting mad at Freedo, like these guys aren’t all friends and aren’t going to invite him again if they want. If he was really a disrespectful douche bag like everyone says. Why haven’t they kicked him to the curb already? I’m glad these guys are good enough friends to tune out the outside noise from the peanut gallery.
Sorry Sam, but you cannot convince me that open queue is a good direction for this game. It's way easier to lose the game on the hero select screen in open queue. Also the amount of people who get stuck on roles that they don't want to play is so much higher in open queue.
As a middle-rank player, my friend group (3 of us) vastly prefers open queue. We (too often) can't trust our teammates in role queue, and we're locked out of doing anything about it and changing tactics (e.g. if we need more damage we can switch to DPS, more heals we can go Healers etc.). If our tank is worse than the enemy tank in role queue, we've practically lost the game 9 times out of 10. Games feel much more within our control and more fun in open, than trying to perform and overcompensate in role queue.
Open Q just adds too many variables. To achieve consistency you need to reduce variables. Open Q is a balance and strategy nightmare. Open Q can be QP or arcade only.
The problem with priority pass was earning them on LOSSES. People would YOLO join flex and troll as hog all game and go "sup diff" at the end of a match.
THIS. When SVB was talking about wins in Dota giving more passes than losses, I was so pissed he didn't bring it up again as a potential solution to passes in OW.
Omg just admit sam was right. like. svb is over here talking about dividing the community and the tone. they still play overwatch regardless of what side like stop the cope
Freedo... SUBJECTIVE OPINION is redundant :). Freedo's takes are just mostly double standard, asks for competitiveness... then say fun for everyone. Competitiveness... then people don't know how to play. Dude pick a side... if people don't know how to play then balance don't matter! Everyone gives nice points (Flats tries to always fall on the fence... not a shill, but definitely holding his opinions back cause he needs to keep a nice relationship w Ow2 people). Samito has really good points mostly with facts and a logic, but he loses credibility by tilting... cause Freedo wants him to tilt. I genuinely believe Freedo is mostly wrong and always arguments with an antagonising attitude. 6v6 is a objectively better format for gameplay loop, period... the question here trade-offs. Tanking sucks in 5v5 and no balance patch will make it better unless hero redesigns happen for everyone. Giga buffed tanks suck for the tank and also the other players.
Freedo really can’t help but strawman other peoples arguments. I like him but it’s really annoying. “DPS shouldn’t be able to nuke a tank” what is he talking about? no one said that
2:50:27 Freedo lossing an arguement because he used a wrong example then going into a long rant about journalitic integrity and using correct facts is hilarious
@@donovan4222 I find I agree with him pretty often, but he presents his points in such an abrasive and aggressive matter for no reason at all. When he ground the convo to a halt to say "bro you're saying your opinion as if it's an objective fact but it's just your subjective opinion" like yeah bro, no shit. We're talking about a videogame. The fact he feels the need to "remind" people of that mid-convo is so autistic.
@@PrefuryTHIS. I personally don't like freedo but his heart is in the right place and his points aren't always bad like people say. But he presents them in a very unlikeable way and/or a very defensive way
Considering how open minded Aaron was, It leaves a bittersweet taste in my mouth after months of fighting off the 5v5ers that treated us like subhuman idiots, ‘nostalgia bias’, ‘rose tinted glasses wearers’ that only care about our own play not the “big picture”. Screw them all.
The whole “casuals don’t wanna wait in 15 minute queue times” thing doesn’t make much sense to me because casuals aren’t affected by queue times, it’s mainly the higher level players 😅
I'm a low lever player and STILL queue times are way longer on dpd cause everyone just wanna boot up a hero game and yet playing it like cod on dps. Plus, aside from bronze and silver, gold and above are hugely impacted by queue times
Brother queue times affect all skill levels even more so on the lower end cause most just want to play dps and kill stuff . Queue times suck at the higher level for the reason that their is less people on that tier
Casuals are effected more by lower times. A 5 min queue will make a lot of people just play something else. 20 min queues would make a lot of people uninstall.
I don’t know what you guys experienced, I was in ow1 and was not a high rank player and queue times where not a problem, maybe near the end of ow1s life it got worse but that’s hardly a fair comparison
@@gats9593 salt is funny because it's so incomprehensible how one person can be at such a steep intellectual disadvantage that you can't help but laugh
@mrpetebojangles21 are you gonna comment under every post even slightly negative in tone against freedo or what this is like the 14th comment I've seen from you. How hard does freedo hit your gspot to deserve this level of meatriding while you accuse Sam of being hitler
@@xxswagmastermike_7kxx568 Its because it turns into a spam fest especially in small choke areas when its double tank. its not fun and when ppl discovered the tank meta especially on 2CP maps players quit in droves and the que times were horrible the last few years of OW1.
OW1 2-2-2 Queue Times cannot be used as an argument against 2-2-2 itself because: (1) The rampant CC issue was never addressed in a big way to improve the game play experience of Tank players (2) OW1 2-2-2 released with a horrid roster of 8 Tanks, 16 DPS, 7 Supports, and the ONLY new hero we got for 3 years was Echo; our 17th DPS hero when we already had so many (3) Completely selfish Tank designs in OW1 2-2-2 (Roadhog & Wrecking Ball) were never addressed, all Tanks need to give some level of defensive value to their team to take pressure off the other Tank and make for way less bad Tank combos.
While that makes sense in this vacuum of people who want to yk get better games , this is not the case with the more casual player base . They really don’t want to wait those 8-15 minutes for a game no matter how much better it is
Unless the change you mention when transition to 6v6 will more than double the tank player we currently have. Combine with the fact a game need 12 people not just 10. Queue Times will suffer for sure.
"(3) Completely selfish Tank designs in OW1 2-2-2 (Roadhog & Wrecking Ball) were never addressed, all Tanks need to give some level of defensive value to their team to take pressure off the other Tank and make for way less bad Tank combos." Wait, so why don't you offer your team defensive value? Watch OW1 games with high rank players, supports peel for each other, even pocket Mercies go back and heal. What you're talking about as "selfish" is actually the tank eating the enemies' attention and cooldowns so people have a free hand to act. By your definition Winston is just as selfish as Hammond.
@@KingOfNebbishes No, Wrecking Ball in OW1 had no way to sustain his team, whereas Winston has a barrier he can place to block damage that would normally hit his team. OW2 Wrecking Ball is fine because he can give some Overhealth to allies, we needed something like the OW2 Wrecking Ball rework in 2-2-2 as well.
God I wish this Freedo would stop talking so much, so that we could listen to Flats, Sam and Spilo. Legitimately, every time he talks, I struggle to pay attention and just get frustrated by how LONG he’s talking about nothing
I don't understand why Flats is even there, he just wants to sit on the fence and criticize the people having an engaging and thought provoking conversation about the topics being discussed. Dude, this is a podcast to discuss the different issues going on with the game. If you don't have strong opinions either way that's completely fine but again, why are you even here then? I really appreciate Freedo and Sam for coming on and willing to actually argue their positions and why they feel the way they do. Is everyone gonna always agree? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that everyone is "nitpicking arguments", a conversation is about responding to what the other person is saying. I never felt like anyone was attacking or nitpicking the other person, just engaging and listening to what each person was saying. I don't know, but I especially felt like his response at 2:15:13 was just really dismissive and frankly childish on a podcast SPECIFICALLY for discussing different viewpoints about the game. Again, not everyone cares about arguing and debating, and that's totally okay, but if you're that kind of person don't criticize people who are willing to argue their point. Some people enjoy having a nuanced discussion with someone with an opposing viewpoint (and some people, like myself, like listening to them) Much love to Sam and Freedo
Uhhh, hm, I don't think that his position and sentiment is pointless, I think his acknowledgement of the way the arguments play out is reasonable. The arguments often get so deep in the nitty gritty and "my side vs your side" that even though they are still productive conversation, they lose the big picture a lot of the time and in a limited time frame you have to kinda stick to big picture. And he is also right that they often lose sight of what things are just personal preferences and this extends to the community as well. However I do agree that his vibe was too dismissive and detached.
I'm not gonna lie I usually like Flats but I agree. I think he's trying way too hard to play peacekeeper and is a bit too concerned with "animousity" between Sam and Freedo and the people who flock to their sides, but problems don't get solved unless the people who have them are willing to come to blows and hammer out either a victor or a compromise and you don't get either if you just stop people from having the argument in the first place. That's why I loved watching Samito's response to GSRaider's "shill problem" video. He may have disagreed with a lot of GSRaider's accusations but at the end of the day he addressed them, and when arguments get addressed, progress gets made.
Very true, flats being a nice guy with good charisma kind of causes people to not realize that he’s a bit of an annoying fence sitter who just nit picks other people’s solutions then says “I don’t know both sides make good points” when asked about his own solutions. He be trying to market himself to appeal to the most people 🤣
That part annoyed tf outta me as well. More so than freedo's rants, surprisingly enough. I don't like freedo, but at the very least, he has the balls to stand on business and defend 5v5 even tho it is crumbling to the ground. Flats coming in and being like "yea both of you are just wrong, just shut up about it," makes me think he has no real purpose here
2:49:09 OMG rolling on the floor laughing rn Sam: you just made an agreement about role lock using open queue as an example do you think that's far. Freedo: yes because people will play what they want not what wins. Example people one tricking. Everyone: acutually one tricking has gone done so your point is falling apart Freedo: I am a journalistic God above everyone because I speak with "JOURNALISTIC INTREGITY" and you guys aren't
@@VELO_ALEXeveryone says this but LFG discords just aren't what they used to be, I haven't had success in an LFG discord in a while for any game. Plus they straight removed that feature, which despite what a few people like to say was pretty widely used. I used it literally every time I played and it took like 2-3 minutes tops to find a group
7v7 fixes q times and gives more agency to DPS. It’s also a completely different format so they can’t be accused of just going back to ow 1. He’s cooking so fucking hard rn and nobody knows it.
There's no chance PS4/Switch can handle 14 players in the OW2 engine, and it seems like it would make supps become forced into fulltime heal bot playstyle. It's a cool potential idea for OW3 but not a viable path for OW2 if it involves dropping support for multiple consoles.
You'd actually need to reduce the impact of individual dps to make them not overrun the whole lobby One consequence Sam'd love about this, it'd be an indirect nerf mercy too :D
@@gphonk7359and I'm of the opinion of that we shouldn't hold games back for older generations of consoles. Current gen of consoles have been out for 3 years now plenty of time for ppl to upgrade to better systems. Btw Nintendo systems have always been lowest preforming systems and never going to change bc Nintendo knows ppl but their systems not for 3rd party software but for their own developed games like Pokemon, Zelda and Smash Bros. I remember back in the day that support for older generations are was drop a year after the release of the next, it time to go back to that so games can continue to move forward and get better.
Because a debate needs both sides. Not a 6v6 and 2 neutrals. I mostly agree 6v6 enjoyer, but its not called “the great echo chamber” it’s called “the great debate”
But guys ! Stop talking about 6v6 !! It’s separate the community and create division !! Stop expressing yourself about the game you love !! This is just nostalgia and rose’s tinted glasses !! I want an apology with tears and a Yukulele
2:15:07 okay flats .. at some point you gotta grow a pair and speak up. Say something dude. Have some sort of original opinion or thought and stop worrying about having that next Aaron interview. How are you gonna be the “tank rep” and not speak up at this point. Here’s something you could say, how about they spilt the tank role into 2. If everyone is worried about two shields make main tank and off tank have to be separate and when you que for tanks, you have to be either or. Just a freakin thought…
This is the dumbest idea because you're just making the terrible queue times of 6v6 way worse because now you're looking for tanks of the same skill specifically on main, the most unpopular position.
Split the game into main/off tank, hitscan/projectile dps, main/flex support. Im sure that wont have any affect on queue times at all! /s this is a brainrot idea that will make it a million times worse
Dps is the most problematic role because it's the closest to normal fps mechanics but also because the ratio of heroes compared to the other roles is largely skewed, making it the most popular role. Therefore, to help que times, the devs need to release significantly more tank and support heroes to balance the standard deviation of the heros players choose to main.
DPS can never be the "star" role as they put it otherwise *everyone* is suffering, Tanks are just there to get hit, supports be hunted while the dps duel for the wins, Queue times skyrocket and we get to the end of OW1 again where it's instant queues for tank and support 15+ for dps It's also a massive part of why the "low skill heroes should never be top tier" arguments fall through, they almost always boil down to "me have 2 aim better, me should win" if it's all about aim, if you're just going to be a discount dps, why not go full dps
I wonder if the original draft of the statement had a line graph over time rather than the six bars. Just because of this sentence: “The sharp drop-off in queue times in October of 2022 is when Overwatch 2, along with 5v5, shipped.” That data would answer some questions.
Overwatch 1 balance team is what killed 6v6. We need to stop blaming the format for horrible balance and hero design. Letting the new team cook with 6v6 will not bring back double shield and other in game issues as long as the team doesn’t buff brig and bap or any other AoE healing too much. We have so many new heroes and reworked heroes the game is going to be different than it was even in 6v6. Really disappointed in flats for that take. 6v6 was not the problem and I’m tired of people attributing what they hated about overwatch one to the format when there were clear moments where balance was good and the 6v6 format could shine
2:10:00 too be fair to freedo, i dont think the type of players that would play the 6v6 overwatch 2 code Are your normal overwatch enjoyers. These are people who likely watch educational content, streamers, play the game alot, maybe they also play pugs and scrims alot. but they are hardstuck players for whatever reason. Like you might have a team of plat players. Is it a team of plat players that all watch spilo and have played their respective heroes for like at least 100 hours each? Or is it a team of plat players that are just practicing different heroes, they just came from work, and their dog is barking to go outside?
After playing the 6v6 code its night and day how much we lost in terms of gameplay going with 5v5. 5v5 undoubtedly creates and inherently unbalanced tank experience that the devs have been trying to fix since the inception of overwatch 2. This has caused the quality of gameplay to go way down the way samito describes. I encourage others to play the code like samito says and you can judge for yourselves.
@@Dewawon621Well, the majority left when they announced that they were gonna stop updating OW1 to work on OW2 PVE/Story Mode. And when you tell people “hey we’re gonna stop updating this game, just wait for our sequel” most are gonna get bored of the unchanging original game and move on while waiting for the sequel. That’s why when OW2 came back with less features than the first and a middling to shit PVP experience for the casual player it got so much hate from the wider gaming community. People were hyped up to believe the sequel was gonna be great, it wasn’t, so people stay gone. Had 6v6 affected this? Maybe a bit, but at the same time it wasn’t anywhere near the sole reason people left the game
This episode was recorded on 26th July 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ )
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IMO the best way to tackle this discussion (lets assume 6v6 is a bust), is to literally follow how paladins work their max hp in correlation to overwatch is 400-500 for tanks 180-220 for dps and supports in the range of 200-250. The next basic and necessary fix is let an ultimate be an ultimate. The only way to counter ults should be is run away far far far away or counter ults.
6 v 6 but 1 Tank 3 DPS 2 Support or 1 Tank 4 Dps 1 Support sense it's mostly an FPS anyways and people get bad when they need sheilds to play the game lols
Ah yes. A four hour podcast about the number of players in a video game. This will be a good thing for me to put on at 2:30 in the morning.
bro might have slept thru the podcast
@@Warrior-xt4ne 2:30am is prime gamer hours whatchuu mean
Same
The number of players doesn’t matter. It’s the number of people queueing per role. That’s why queue times are still shit Yippeeeeeee heehee haha (obv if you’re low elo it’s not gonna apply to you)
Literally started watching this at 2:30 and its 5 am now lol
Spilo's idea for a cinematic with 5 man group lead by Zarya struggling on a mission only to get saved by Rein making a 6v6 team would hit like a truck and save the game by itself if they ever released that with 6v6. Got chills thinking about that...
SVB: “How you doing Sam”
Sam: “Allow me to explain my perspective”
😅
we would have 6v6 by now if the face of it wasnt sam
@@kurvaanyad12but sam is our main flag why we are going to finally have that format, flats is the main reason why the game is trash
@@erjohn5404flats suggesting a shakeup every now and then has to be one of the worst things ow has done. I love how whenever we talk about 6v6 and stuff it's always to undo the shakeups because of how they screw over heroes.
@@Punchbadguy yeah its so braindead, when other games do shakeups its them adding new stuff to the game not changing the games foundation, the only reason ow devs wanted to do shakeups its because they know that from the last 2 years the game will never be balanced enough to be stable long term in 5v5
Please initiate Spilo into the core avengers. He is just unmatched. He knows how low elo players play, has coatched one of the greatest and most unique Ow esports teams to ever be and also doesn't play the game enough to burn out like all the twitch ranked grinders do or did.
He is my favorite, most nuanced and feedback orientated creator (at least) in this space and I love the dynamic with my favorite podcast host SVB.
Also love Freedos 'no perfect solution, only tradeoffs' line.
Yes. Spilo very nice
Spilo's legit. I don't always agree with him in terms of his views, but I can always trust him to put his ego aside and recognize a fair point when it's made. Every convo I've heard him be a part of was made better because he was there.
"Big Kale is an industry plant" Spilo with some top tier dad jokes.
Big tobacco-“I’ll smoke him”
@@tiggle5485 🤣🤣🤣
Where the fuck are my 10 aviod slots Blizzard?
The real important question being asked
Season 12 I think
They datos season 12
THIS!!! omg almost forgot! WHERE TF are they?!? i hate 5v5 but wheres my avoid list...is almost above that
Season 12. But the real question is. Where are my perma ow1 avoids blizz. If the player base is bigger. Then give me a list that I can edit. If I want to avoid 100 people and have to manually untick them to get games again then that's my choice
But Custa said they will never do 6v6 again and there is no point in talking about it 🤔
I hope that clip of him saying that dumbassery is never let go 😂😂 it's literally impossible to be more wrong than him
Custa's always had an insider persperspective, so he should always be given the benefit of the doubt. I suspect the devs didn't seriously consider returning to 6v6 until the last couple of months, and still the blogpost HEAAVILY favors 5v5 for queue times, engine load (for example, switch can't handle 6v6 currenlty), rebalancing the entire roster, and alienating millions of players that prefer 5v5. Custa was right for what he knew at that time, and I suspect the only reason 6v6 is being discussed by the devs right now is to minimize the amount of players interacting with Marvelwatch. It's a good blogpost, but I thought as a community we were done fully believing OW dev promises given for "several seasons" from now.
SO MANY people were saying this to me “it’s not goona happen, there’s no point talking about it” well well well how the turntables have turned
@@matthewtelles8619 Unfortunately I think it is just as you have said.
Taking the air out of the sails of the newest competitor. Marvel Rivals.
Yeah that dudes begging for relevance
I don't hate Freedo but god I don't like how he always trys to invalidate a high ranked players opinion because they are high ranked. I'm plat and I don't want the game to be less skillful because "metal rank players aren't as good as high ranked players and will never be as good so just make the game easier for them", I would rather learn and improve at a game that rewards skill rather than passively giving value based on the role you are on.
I wouldn't say that it's just that historically our content creators talk within terms of their own bubble and since they're voices are the loudest their views have stronger staying power on the community despite not being representative at all. Case in point people saying Reinhart is bad whilst he's actually REALLY good for 99.6% of the player base but that 0.4 swears up and down that he's horrible. I've always felt like freedo and spilo are the only content creators that speak for the average player
@@metazeenfreddo doesnt speak for the average player. He uses it as exuse to defend blizzard.
He says that average player loves counterswaping for example.
@cesarjairrojasfuentes7440 What's less skillful about the game, though? In 5v5, you have more individual carry potential since one less tank isn't blocking you.
The fact of the matter is that for a vast majority of the playerbase, the teamwork and coordination isn't there regardless of format. Did you have games in OW1 where your team was synced up? Ofc but it wasn't nearly as consistent as high level play.
@@narcodixyadigg781 not having a second tank blocking you is a thing that makes it less skillful, you completely cut out any of the skill involved in playing around the two enemy tanks. having more carry potential in the form of run on flank and shoot enemy DPS is just less skillful of a gameplay loop. Not only is teamwork and coordination just a small piece of the puzzle here, but also you don't need the entire team synced for teamwork and coordination to be present, it's as simple as looking at your tanks/other tank and looking at what they are doing and going with their pace, seeing your tank go in and using your cooldown in conjunction, seeing your other tank in voice, you don't have to look at everything so black and white
It’s also funny because he acts like 5v5 caters to casual players, but casual players never cared about queue times because anything below diamond has like 3 minute queues at worst.
I don't like Freedo but I can see he tried being more reasonable this time round, so good for him. Honestly, Sam and him should play the 6v6 code together and make content out of it. That would be the good ending to this current chapter.
That would actually be a really cool idea
Freedo would be trying so hard to pretend he wasn’t having fun 🤣
Freedo is very hit or miss to me. Always has been. I genuinely think he’d pretend that 6v6 isn’t more fun just to keep the act up.
@@Twilight.Princessbruh what are yall on he literally he himself would thrive more in 6v6 and enjoy it but he was literally arguing for people who STRUGGLED in 6v6 and what Aaron was talking about in the dev blog. I seriously question if people even listen to the podcast and just comment something
@@Twilight.Princess you simply don’t know the guy and the struggles during these overwatch years. He would definitely switch up ideas if it revealed to be better (he always wanted draft initially)
The Spilo takeover continues
My favorite low elo streamer
?@@chiefinasmith
@@alanwiseman3235 !
@chiefinasmith !!
W Spilo
Freedo: Tanks are unkillable in 6v6.... actually, they're killable but only by pros.... ok but noob friendly tankbusters don't count that's cheese! Is it either damage players or tank players that are suffering? Wait its both? Well um..... dying instantly on a tank is bad for the game!
That goalpost is zooming faster than a Tracer main
Legend has it Freedo hates the number 6
As a gold player I fully understand what he was talking about. In OW1, it felt like bashing your head against the wall when trying to take even any first point. I love the fast pace more death match style of OW2.
@@Mederzz17 😂😂😂 LMFAO
@@deoxxys dude what I loved playing dps in ow1 lmao but you had to do things at the right TIME, you couldn't just run into the enemy team lol
@@deoxxys Ah yes the "we have the wrong Tank on our team so we get crushed" or "we have the right Tank so we crush them". The only thing fast paced is how quick I swap to counter their Tank.
Freedo power bombed somebodies child at Walmart.
@@oqangex8099 Freedo the type to ask you to Venmo him a dollar for using some of his ketchup from the fridge
@@donovan4222 on god 😂😂😂nah this shit is too accurate, he really feel like that Guy
@@donovan4222 He be counting the squares on the toilet paper roll as a roommate
@@donovan4222😂😂 lmao
@@donovan4222 😂😅
Freedo saying that overpowered heroes is good for the game is wild, also him trying to say for casual players that tanks were unkillable in 6v6 is straight up FALSE, I’ve always been a metal rank player until the end of 6v6, and tanks were ALWAYS killable if u execute on them, exactly how Samito says it. Even during double shield, in lower ranks u could always kill tanks. Also queue times were NEVER that bad for lower ranks until the late part of the ow1, you know, when they ABANDONED the game with NO new content and u had to PAY to play the game. Of course queue times would be better, theres WAY more players now that the game is free to play, also I think queue times would NOT be bad if we go back to 6v6 like flats is saying because we have so many new and interesting tank designs that would fit really well in 6v6 when redesigned for it, like queen, ramattra, etc. Given that there’s a lot more content, more interesting tank heroes, queue times would not be an issue in 6v6 at all. Also idk why flats is so against 6v6 for queue times yet he’s suggesting 7v7??!! I can see how on paper that could do something but idk. Also 7v7 with 3 dps presents some issues like if there’s 3 dps their damage and impact would have to be nerfed a lot more, how viable would they be then? Would they lose their identities? I would much rather just go back to 6v6, a good format and one that we have more info on. I used to play tank and dps, but obviously tank got gutted in 5v5. I do NOT want to have my main role dps be gutted like tank in 5v5 because of another format change.
He always falls back on either tank synergy was too strong and lower ranked players struggled to kill them, or lower ranked players had terrible tank synergy and couldn't pull it off and have fun. Two opposite ends there but he frequently brings up one or the other.
It is more about the boom and bust. I am also perma metal rank, I was full held on kings row a lot in 6 v 6 due to tank mismatch, never happened in 5v5 as the difference is not as great. He always states that 6v6 had the highest highs and the lowest lows, 5v5 never reaches these high.. but ALSO not the 6v 6 lows. You also seem to be struggling with the role ratios problem that the devs and freedo have highlighted. It wouldn't matter if the entire planet played, if there are still 2-3 times more dps than tank players, it would have long queue times.
good points but flats isnt “so against” 6v6
he said multiple times this podcast he was almost a 6v6er
but its queue times
thats why he’s against it
and 7v7
would bring back tanks synergies and help queues
thats his point
i would need to think more before i decide if its a good idea
@@cheesyburger2944 7v7 is a horrible idea, remember Jeff Kaplan himself saying that during the early testings of Overwatch other formats besides 6v6 felt wrong/too chaotic, you want unreadable chaos? 7v7 would be like Big Team Battle/Ground War but imagine it on OW maps, awful idea.
Flats is just throwing shit ideas at the wall because he cant come up with any other reason to not be on the 6v6 train besides queue times(which is arguable but not a big enough reason because we dont have data on 6v6 for OW2, OW1 was abandoned and they made the Tank Role increasingly bad towards the end) and that his paycheck is in Blizzards hands so he doesnt ever want to bad mouth their decisions or justifications, so he has to tip toe his way around his opinions just to fence sit and not take a side to be safe. Flats makes decent points here and there but he doesnt ever pick a side and decide what he wants, thats why he just lets everyone else talk most of the time.
@@sqoo5 exactly
Freedo pulled the life support on my wife
@@p0k3mn1 and then took the insurance money and gave it to Aaron Keller
freedo says people don't like him because he speaks with 'journalistic integrity' when actually he's just unlikeable
Definitely has the ego of a journalist, that's for sure
Even more unlikable than the "spilo" dude?
@@RRRRRRRRR33there is nothing blatantly unlikable about Spilo dude. You must really be willing to dislike him to say that 😂
@@魚-c3d The dude sounds arrogant. Also the whole "coaching" thing is just so stupid
@@RRRRRRRRR33big facts, you're saying what everyone else is scared to say
TLDR
Samito: No, Freedo, you are wrong
Freedo: No, Samito, you are wrong
Spilo: you both are kinda right
Flats: y'all are freaking wrong 😂
@@Melix0ff SVB: “Flats you’ve been quiet for a while what are your thoughts?”
Flats: “Both sides bro, one side says one thing, and the other side says another thing. At the end of the day, both sides make both sides points for their side. Both sides have good points, and both sides have bad points bro. In the end, It’s just like two sides with different views.”
SVB: “Well said, I agree.”
@@donovan4222 Fucking Humpty Dumpty flats sitting on the damn fence. Can't make a damn opinion and yaps for five fucking minutes of nothing.
@@donovan4222yes that is what was said
Hate him coming on to these to have the fence so far up his ass he doesn't say anything
@@donovan4222god that is so fucking accurate. SVB is always crawling back to Flats only for the latter to airbend for 2 minutes and end up making no point.
Flats is a pretty nice guy, but he's such an 'enlightened centrist'.
That's only an insult if you are a modern American.
@@MoteKinTrol “both sides just need to come together to find a solution bro”
@@YazzPott YOU PICK SIDE OR YOU EVIL!
YOU TELL THEM!!! SILENCE IS VIOLENCE!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, he rarely says anything of substance because he's so afraid to "offend" someone.
sam and freedo both on call this gonna be juicy
freedo is the biggest fail son hack i ever saw
Anti-shiller vs shiller
gotta watch this one on mobile so its easier to skip freedo
@@bobothebob4716you can press the arrow keys on keyboard
@@bobothebob4716real
SPILO SAM AND FLATS AGAIN W W W
This is going to be a treat
Don’t forget about the other GOATed member of this podcast
Of course I’m talking about SVB
@@SMTenacityYeah all four of the ones mentioned are always great
Hopefully they move to marvel rivals permanently🙏
@@QuadNinesthey won’t lol
Freedo try to not rant off topic for 5 minutes challenge: impossible
Funny way of spelling Samito. Both love going on super long tangents wtfdym
@@kayanono 🤣🫵
@@kayanonohe said freedom lmao, why are you inserting Sam into the conversation? Yes they both yap but that doesn’t mean they get included by default every convo about how annoying they are or whatever
@@skyler7017 prolly because this comment section has a major hate boner for freedo. He can get into long tangents, but other people on the call are guilty of this too.
@@davidrich27 I like to hear Freedo talk, but "YourOverwatch" is most definitely going to be Shilling the Devs POV no matter what.
everyone else has the opportunity to transition off OW.
Think what you like but I value his opinion less because I think he has conflict of interest.
Also im still salty I can't run the lobby duo tanking with my brother. so I'm Biased to Samito camp.
Yall keep letting freedo on this podcast and not checking him when he’s being hypocritical or contradicts himself and it’s infuriating. Stop letting him speak for casual players.
I think it won't be long until Flats gets there, considering he called both Freedo and Sam out on this episode. Though I think it was mostly directed at Freedo. Idk.. Freedo' latest video also has a meme referring to a tweet Samito made, where he put "really bro", or something like that. The name calling is just too childish, as I think was the point Flats made in this episode.
@@depthcharge5091 It’s funny how he acts like he speaks for the average player when it sounds like all of his takes were engineered in a lab to be as unpopular as possible. He sounds more like a contrarian than a guy who’s defending most players perspective.
Freedo killed all life on Mars
Very happy Sam got time to explain why being invincible doesnt = fun, for tanks.
The power fantasy can be enticing for many people, it's lazy, but it works. There's so many games in this hobby that offers that, but the power fantasy gimmick on "competitive" games is just dumb, people will pick the final boss of a fighting game, the allstar team on Madden, day 1 Brigitte, etc.. it's pointless, this is not supposed to be a "competition"?
Legendary podcast run. Avengers in back to back episodes
A 6v6 teaser is two tanks doing the good old MvC2 handshake, then reveal 6v6 with a marvel vs capcom collab on release.
I wanna take you for a ride?
hold up let him cook
Reinhardt doing the tug shake on Doomfist
WTF 😂
Or the Armstrong handshake from Fullmetal Alchemist 😁
As a low level player I do not accept freedo speaking for me
real
Freedo replaced my grandpas heart meds with sugar pills
This was an amazing episode to watch live, lots of interesting points and perspectives discussed, always love having these in the background when I'm grinding out a looter game, time flies. Thanks to all participants and the host SVB for making such a lovely show, I've never been into podcasts but this is just my favorite thing ever.
Next episode featuring Abby overwatch
Love your content man keep grinding 💪🏿
@@alexanderabad7295I’d love to see Abby on one of these!
if you become one of this point out the healing and the tank role
SVB I appreciate you very much for hosting these discussions. My only complaint is there is too much ranting going on and not enough back and forth.
With this many people together I think it could be worth having a timer like Around the Horn. When Freedo talks for 10min, then Sam responds for 10min, then Flats interrupts to rant about 7v7 for 15min, it feels less like a discussion and more like people taking turns solo podcasting.
Personally I also feel like 7v7 discussion in general is counterproductive bc it's just a pipedream when the devs haven't even figured out how to get 12ppl in the OW2 engine. I was disappointed to hear Flats shut down Freedo/Sam's back and forth just to rant about this non-option for 15min.
I’m not being rude but it’s always freedo who makes it personal with Sam and it’s makes it awkward.
For real. I get that he has his own point of view that he stands by and he has a right to defend it but the way he does it is...its just akward. You said it right. Rather than focusing on the points he makes everyone starts focusing on the way he makes them.
Sam is actually way too nice to him. It's funny that it's the case given his toxic persona. But it's really been evident during this whole beef between them. Sam is constantly taking the higher road and I think it forced Freedo to try doing the same in this video. So maybe it's actually effective.
@@Chickentender77 it’s extremely irritating when Freedo is the only one in the chat being toxic, and everyone is doing a “both sides just have to calm down guys” routine
It feels like sam and freedo are put on opposite sides of the screen the same way you put 2 children on the opposite side of the classroom.
no shot Freedo is still saying tank synergy is why 5v5 is better? no 2cp and double shield . nerfed bap brig? More tanks now, 6v6 workshop code showing better gameplay. still misguided.
@@Drew-fn6rq I don’t know man, freedo reminds me of some of my friends, they genuinely dislike the game, can only play like 3 games max then have to swap games and always shit on the game but they still turn around and say they prefer 5v5 like you guys don’t play the game half as much as when ow1 was dying but you think ow2 is better…
@@probablysteven1325 I mean I consistently hit 200 on my battlepass and prefer 5v5. Tank in ow1 felt so much less fun and I would never touch it, but now it's my best role. Sure you absorb more cooldowns, but there's so much more agency and playmaking ability. The only thing I miss about ow1 is dps doomfist.
@@lukasg4807 sorry dude I gotta hard disagree with you, I believe it is an objective truth that tank is worse in ow 2 (considering everyone hates tank), and as far as playmaking ability goes I gotta disagree with you there as well. Tanks now can feel like 50 different wrong decisions and only a couple of right ones. Even flats at one point said that tank is much less about making the big aggressive play and much more about playing safe. Maybe you felt tank was less fun in ow 1 but the majority of people would strongly agree that tank is much worse now than it has ever been
@@lukasg4807 also this is kind of just an extra thing but I have no idea how you have managed to hit 200 on your battle pass consistently, I can never motivate myself to play that much in one season and when I do play a lot of games it’s absolutely miserable
I can't wait for 6v6 to be added so all of your nostalgia that you guys THINK you have for double tank will have a reality check. Cause ppl will quit this game and fuck up the que times even more lmao. Or did yall forget a mass majority also quit during the OW1 days too especially after the goats fiasco. I'm not trying to play World of Warcraft FPS again and neither are the new players who joined during OW2.
FLATS, SPILO, SMAITO AND FREEDO. THIS IS GONNA BE ONE HELL OF AN EPISODE 🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯🗣️🗣️🗣️
Is that emoji shit some kind of autism thing or what
Would’ve been better without freedo
@@-.Outlaw.-yes. I hope he never joins the podcast again
🚒
@@-.Outlaw.-not really. Svb is such a good podcaster because he brings different ideas to the same table. If everyone loved 6v6 and no one gave a fuck for 5v5 then there is no reason to have the podcast.
This way we have: 6v6/dps guy, 5v5/support guy, middle/pro guy, tank/streamer guy, and the host (also supp player)
Flats is starting to annoy me. He gets onto a podcast thats partially a debate and gets upset when people debate....
@@mvndoc Flats: “It’s just a case of both sides bro…both sides make both sides points for their own side and don’t think about the other side. Unlike me, I’m enlightened and see both sides good points and both sides bad points. Anyways, I think both sides just need to come together and make a good idea based on both sides ideas.”
SVB: “Well said Flats, thank you for being the voice of reason.”
Yeah like it wasn't getting even close to bad energy until flats said what he said. I feel like him and freedo get uncomfortable with debate but cant/won't say so, so instead of letting the engaging convo continue we got a 10 minute patronizing lecture about being nice on the internet.
Someone please tell flats to stop going to debates if he is just going to wear the fence like underwear
@@jakeatcheson3884 Im not so sure it's directed at the people in the call. Everyone but Flats seems pretty fine with debating and talking about these things. People act like Sam and Freedo hate each other, when that is very obviously not the case. I think it's more directed at the community and the comments under this video. Just a few comments up, is a dude who has commented some garbage under nearly every response. People need to be civil.
@mutant9137 fence sitters opinions are valueable, and Flats himself said it's because of the queue time data. Moderates are great in debates. But often times if someone is on the fence, if you can figure out whats keeping them on the fence, you can progress the debate. Instead of the two extremes going out and having a shouting match.
Freedo sold me fent
2:49:20 when freedo says thats he tries to talk with integrity made me mad
he kept misconstruing sams points everytime
sam, 2:09:35 “i cannot ever beat a tank in a 1v1 because of the stats and i cant make a play on them"
freedo 2:10:27, not even a minute later "will tanks like getting 1 hit" and hes the one who talks about cherry picking lmao
he makes a strawman out of anything sam says like sam didnt say he wanted to be able to insta delete a tank just that he wanted to be able to fight them and make plays and freedo instantly jumps to 1 hits and being bursted down. i know flats addresses it later but freedo doesnt change much throughout the blog. while sam does get aggresive, at least he acknowledges the points that are brought up around 5v5. i wish freedo was more open and actually would engage in a coversation, but it feels that he never really added anythinng beneficial and was just there so they could have a "5v5 person" and rage bait sam.
freedo is wrong, players care about winning with heroes they enjoy. if we are forced to play something we dont want to play to win we just wont play it or wont play at all.that "its easy just counter with something u hate to play" mentality is not a comp mentality its a pro or streamer mentality cause they are PAID to play, this is our fukin enjoyment so no i wont counter sym with phara mercy cause i fukin hate playing with it and the whole point of comp is not winning, its improving, why would i want to improve with something i hate??makes no sense and freedo clearly has mistaken a streamers or pro players mindset with the average player, cause we definetly have diferent insentives to play. we dont win shit when we win a match except joy, we dont get that joy when we play something we dont want and win, no one is subbing to us, no one is paying us to play, if the chemicals dont go off in the brain there is no point
Moth Mercy had a 100% pick rate in metal ranks dude, people hated her but she was picked in every single game during that patch of 6v6. The data does not prove what you say.
@@ArielHal9000 mercy was one of the most popular heroes
@@ArielHal9000 also u are comparing apples to oranges.one think is a counter another is a completly broken hero
@headecas Your whole thesis is wrong that comp isn't about winning. Everything about it rewards you for winning. You can only rank up on a win. You get more comp points on a win. You only get the player title after getting 10 wins. You basically just want to play quick play open queue, and that's fine. But don't make assertions about the rest of the community.
@@ArielHal9000 ur mistaking the wood for the trees
I am so beyond tired of listening to freedo tell me what my experience with the game was. This guy who's been GM top 500 forever is telling me, a guy who's played in every rank bronze to diamond in ow 1 about how low rank was and what the experience was and the opinions of low rank players. I was there I experienced it I spoke to more metal rank players than he could ever imagine. He invoke this authority that he just doesn't have he cites low rank opinion and then spews the opposite.
Freedo is clueless and he can’t admit that’s he’s wrong cause of he’s ego so he just says anything to be right
That's why I am trying to build a platform to represent us because I have been dancing in all metal ranks climbing from bronze to plat and peaked diamond at one point. But it's hard af out here
Freedo sounds really pretentious lmao. If that’s how he sees himself then no wonder he sounds like he’s talking down to people a lot of the time. I feel like every person on the podcast aims to speak with integrity so what is he even trying to imply. Kinda off putting.
Flats is a literal troll. Devs finally address 6v6 and this guy insists it’s not a good option after all, and immediately sows the seeds of his next era of complainer content bringing up 7v7. At least he knows his audience 😂
Freedo killed my family
Need more comments like this, not the senseless hate
HAHAHAHAHHA
Back in open Q days, RUclipsrs used to say 1/3 of your games are unwinnable , 1/3 unlosable, and it’s what you do with the other 1/3. Remember that? During open Q, when you loaded in, 2/3 of the games were decided in hero select. It was awful. People who remember it otherwise were top 500, kidding themselves, or didn’t really care about winning.
I mean I only really played ow1 a lot in 2018, and only peaked at 3496, but losing at the hero select was not that big of a deal. Most of the time you always had at least one tank and support, and even when you went out of spawn on 5 or 6 dps it wasn't like you had lost the game because the players who wouldn't swap were good enough to make it work, and it was very rare to be getting stomped and not have some players give in and swap. It was about as common as getting a leaver is in ow today.
People were always in voice and wanted to work as a team, and if someone was having a bad game on dps they'd be able to swap off. Role queue removed so much of that incentive to work as a team and try to win.
Now it feels like most of the playerbase (me included) just pick the hero they want to play, never talk in voice, and don't even think about synergising with their team.
Cool that you have Samito and Freedo. You have player side and blizzard side.
Lmao
samito does not represent me as a player lmao
have you ever watched his stream? every game is unwinnable and it’s never his fault
@@nidoqu33n better than freedo
I like how the first thing Freedo did was be like “I’m glad I defended these devs! This is so great!” After they put out a 6v6 blog post, even though he himself has been sh*tting on 6v6 for like a year and a half.
@nidoqu33n That's what most players do. Therefore, he represents the player side.
This Freedo guy really thinks highly of himself.
Both him and Flats
@@therealzahyramostly flats. Sure freedo can get annoying but his heart is in the right place. But flats is just such a cry baby.
Later in the podcast he completely ruins the mood for absolutely zero reason, a good point but he of course used it in a way to feel superior.
Flats is a Great player for sure but he's definitely filled with some sort of deep rooted ego issue
@@Setogayamari I don't think it was zero reason tbh. I noticed that Freedo was taking things too personally and as he was talking I was telling the TV "don't take it so personally Freedo my man, chill out, it's okay" and what do you know, not long after, Flats points it out. It seems not everyone caught on what was going on and thinks Flats said that out of nowhere but actually he did the right thing. There was a lot of tension coming from Freedo towards Samito and when Flats exposed this (politely, thankfully) suddenly you notice a shift in behaviour in both Freedo and Samito where they start complimenting each other on other achievements and foxusing on each other's positives.
I actually don't like Flats but I'll give credit where it's due. And here, he did the right thing, the right way.
On the 2 hour mark, Freedo once again puts his foot in his mouth. "You state these things definitively as if they're objective, when it's your subjective opinion." Proceeds to make subjective statements RIGHT AFTER SAYING THIS as if they're objectively true. Sam usually speaks in the perspective of the players, high rank to low rank. Freedo almost always speaks about things from HIS perspective. How HE felt about things, what HE thinks other players might've feel or think. A big reason why people like Sam do VOD reviews is to ALSO get their perspective in totality. Freedo, Avrl, Jake, they're some of the few people that aren't healthy for the podcast. They don't argue, they try to prove their side right while downplaying the opposing arguement. Freedo does it all the time when he refers to Sam as a top tier player. SVB needs to realize this.
please stop inviting freedo, or at the very least stop him from talking for over half the total podcast. feels like he's filibustering every time he opens his mouth, just word vomit
The whole idea of "my tank picked a tank I can't synergize with so the game is over" being an anti-6v6 point will always be fucking stupid, because that's literally just how it works now. And that's how supports work too.
If you pick two supports who don't work well together... you lose. If you're on your solo tank and your team doesn't pick heroes that can back you up (as a solo tank) you lose... it's the same shit as before but now instead of it being on the off tank's shoulders, it's not on the rest of the team, so it's arguably worse because now you have even more players who can fuck it up instead of just one.
@@Westbrook__ another thing that’s funny about this, tank synergies are pretty much non existent in the metal ranks. People just pick whatever they want and there is very little teamwork…so the people like Freedo who say they want to cater to the casual players shouldn’t be worried about tank synergies.
Freedo gave my dog diabetes
@@evanpurchase614 All my homies hate Freedo
Holy shit, four hours!? I need some food and drink for this…
Freedo talking about "stats" and "facts" is like how the devs look at win rate/pickrates and think Kiriko isnt broken because her winrate is low yet also neglecting mercy because her win rate is high while being the 3rd most played support. Also at 2:00:00 I dont think freedo fully understood sam's argument. He wasn't saying that reaper will easily destory tanks and/or tanks will just explode because their healthpool is lower, sam was mainly stating that if a tank messes up and is put in a bad spot, he WILL die. Tanks in 6v6 are still arguably better in a 1v1 against most dps, but point is that when they mess up, they get punished. Simple. Tanks in 5v5 can mess up and still get punished, but its harder to do so especially alone.
Also, as someone who's said that tanks are unkillable and oppressive in 6v6, its kinda crazy for him to go against that with the comments of reaper 3-4 shotting tanks in 6v6 and also say that gigabuffed tanks is what it has to be for 5v5 to work. Insanity.
I respect Freedo and his opinion, I don't mean this as any toxic hate, but man I really don't like most of his takes. He feels so unreasonable and ignorant at times. Whereas everyone else despite what side they're on are more logical, reasonable, and open minded.
Freedo says this all the time about ranked, trying to say it didn't come out forever, but that's just bullshit. The game came out on May 24. Ranked started June 28th, and the game didn't win the game of the year until December, so freedo is incorrect. Freedo just seems to be a shilling, moving the goal post, and trying to say things that are not true. Freedo doesnt want to have real discussions about this. Spilo is a great example of how to this should be discussed amongst flats and samito.
Fuck off with the shill shit. I was agreeing with you, read the word shill, and then disregarded your opinion entirely. If you want to be taken seriously, then put the word shill away.
Blizz is not paying creators for opinions, they can barely pay their staff an industry standard wage ffs
@@Lord_Nikon33 Spilo and Samito are the only ones who actually have an honest and productive discussion. Freedo just gets mad and tries to win debate points, while Flats has no thoughts in his brain other than “both sides bro”
Freedo is very bald
Do people even watch YourOverwatch videos anymore? Everything is fine with the other 4 but Freedo just brings arrogance, sarcastic compliments, and all around nobbery
All Freedo's responses to Sam are straw man arguments.
Why does Spilo have a comically large mug?
Why not
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 This is why he's the best coach. He is so goofy sometimes.
He’s actually 2 feet tall and lives in a tree stump.
Looks like the troll face lmao
He uses a mug because he cannot stand THE GLASS
People in the comments getting mad at Freedo, like these guys aren’t all friends and aren’t going to invite him again if they want. If he was really a disrespectful douche bag like everyone says. Why haven’t they kicked him to the curb already?
I’m glad these guys are good enough friends to tune out the outside noise from the peanut gallery.
You can be nice and wrong
@@Thetallguy_zz being wrong is not the same as being an asshole
So based on
His takes are so bad, he's probs just a paid actor anyways
@@Mederzz17 fr
Freedo arguing like a tv host, pla stop letting him do it
man, listening to freeto talk is exhausting
Freedo having a platform and acting like he speaks for our community makes me so annoyed
Sorry Sam, but you cannot convince me that open queue is a good direction for this game. It's way easier to lose the game on the hero select screen in open queue. Also the amount of people who get stuck on roles that they don't want to play is so much higher in open queue.
@@huntish3760 yep. I like role q only becouse i can select my role and play it.
And dont listen "you are support main go support or i throw" garbage
not open queue, non locking role queue, imo its easier to control your own open queue game than current role lock
As a middle-rank player, my friend group (3 of us) vastly prefers open queue. We (too often) can't trust our teammates in role queue, and we're locked out of doing anything about it and changing tactics (e.g. if we need more damage we can switch to DPS, more heals we can go Healers etc.). If our tank is worse than the enemy tank in role queue, we've practically lost the game 9 times out of 10.
Games feel much more within our control and more fun in open, than trying to perform and overcompensate in role queue.
Open Q just adds too many variables. To achieve consistency you need to reduce variables. Open Q is a balance and strategy nightmare. Open Q can be QP or arcade only.
@@5falltv895 Flats already gave an example of how non lockong role queue can create toxicity.
Queue for tank but lock DPS. Is that really better?
The problem with priority pass was earning them on LOSSES.
People would YOLO join flex and troll as hog all game and go "sup diff" at the end of a match.
THIS.
When SVB was talking about wins in Dota giving more passes than losses, I was so pissed he didn't bring it up again as a potential solution to passes in OW.
@@agentwowzawins gave you more in OW also, just no one cared enough to try anyway. Iirc it was 1 for loss 3 for win.
Freedo gave my dad arthritis
It's crazy how different Freedos entire vibe is different here. Crazy what happens when you discover the earth is flat
Omg just admit sam was right. like. svb is over here talking about dividing the community and the tone. they still play overwatch regardless of what side like stop the cope
I just hate how Freedo claims to speak for lower rank players but what he says does not reflect the experience of lower ranked players
Freedo... SUBJECTIVE OPINION is redundant :). Freedo's takes are just mostly double standard, asks for competitiveness... then say fun for everyone. Competitiveness... then people don't know how to play. Dude pick a side... if people don't know how to play then balance don't matter! Everyone gives nice points (Flats tries to always fall on the fence... not a shill, but definitely holding his opinions back cause he needs to keep a nice relationship w Ow2 people). Samito has really good points mostly with facts and a logic, but he loses credibility by tilting... cause Freedo wants him to tilt.
I genuinely believe Freedo is mostly wrong and always arguments with an antagonising attitude. 6v6 is a objectively better format for gameplay loop, period... the question here trade-offs. Tanking sucks in 5v5 and no balance patch will make it better unless hero redesigns happen for everyone. Giga buffed tanks suck for the tank and also the other players.
Freedo really can’t help but strawman other peoples arguments. I like him but it’s really annoying. “DPS shouldn’t be able to nuke a tank” what is he talking about? no one said that
spilo having like 8 different cups really made the podcast
Please invite Freelo onto the next episode with his mic muted and just nod and pretend to agree with him when he starts shilling.
2:50:27 Freedo lossing an arguement because he used a wrong example then going into a long rant about journalitic integrity and using correct facts is hilarious
Freedo is so insanely unlikeable
I like him
@@Prefury he was created by AI to generate the worst possible takes that no one would ever agree with.
@@donovan4222 I find I agree with him pretty often, but he presents his points in such an abrasive and aggressive matter for no reason at all. When he ground the convo to a halt to say "bro you're saying your opinion as if it's an objective fact but it's just your subjective opinion"
like yeah bro, no shit. We're talking about a videogame. The fact he feels the need to "remind" people of that mid-convo is so autistic.
@@Prefurynot to mention, after saying that, he IMMEDIATELY proceeds to state his own opinion as if it were fact.
@@PrefuryTHIS. I personally don't like freedo but his heart is in the right place and his points aren't always bad like people say.
But he presents them in a very unlikeable way and/or a very defensive way
Considering how open minded Aaron was, It leaves a bittersweet taste in my mouth after months of fighting off the 5v5ers that treated us like subhuman idiots, ‘nostalgia bias’, ‘rose tinted glasses wearers’ that only care about our own play not the “big picture”. Screw them all.
The whole “casuals don’t wanna wait in 15 minute queue times” thing doesn’t make much sense to me because casuals aren’t affected by queue times, it’s mainly the higher level players 😅
I'm a low lever player and STILL queue times are way longer on dpd cause everyone just wanna boot up a hero game and yet playing it like cod on dps. Plus, aside from bronze and silver, gold and above are hugely impacted by queue times
Brother queue times affect all skill levels even more so on the lower end cause most just want to play dps and kill stuff . Queue times suck at the higher level for the reason that their is less people on that tier
Casuals are effected more by lower times. A 5 min queue will make a lot of people just play something else. 20 min queues would make a lot of people uninstall.
You weren't there for 6v6, DPS queue times were regularly above 10 min in all ranks
I don’t know what you guys experienced, I was in ow1 and was not a high rank player and queue times where not a problem, maybe near the end of ow1s life it got worse but that’s hardly a fair comparison
Freedo? This is about to be some Unsalted Salt type of tomfoolery
Couldn't have said it better myself
@@gats9593too smug for someone who’s bald
@@gats9593 salt is funny because it's so incomprehensible how one person can be at such a steep intellectual disadvantage that you can't help but laugh
Freedo = Reddit. So tired of this guy. Feels like he goes on and on about nothing relevant just to sound smart.
I guess I'm listening during my entire shift at work lol
Hot take: Marvel Rivals needs role queue for competitive but open queue for quickplay
Honestly, that's what I thought Overwatch needed for the longest time. If Marvel does that, I'd like to how it would go
dont OW have a open queue for both comp and qp?
An actual role queue like LoL, Smite, Dota.
Freedo consistently has the worst takes whenever he's not reading the blizzard shill script.
Nah, freedo is the goat. Give Sam more money with your smooth brain mouse clicks.
@mrpetebojangles21 are you gonna comment under every post even slightly negative in tone against freedo or what this is like the 14th comment I've seen from you. How hard does freedo hit your gspot to deserve this level of meatriding while you accuse Sam of being hitler
@@mrpetebojangles21Freedo ain't gonna fuck you bro, calm ur ass down.
true
@@mrpetebojangles21 freedo is the goat of yapping nothing else
"If we go back to 6v6, 5v5 would have made me better" - Cyx
That's scary coming from a consistent top 10 tank
Virgin players: "5v5 is not fun for tanks! 6v6 was better!"
Chad tank: "5v5 is my training arc for when 6v6 comes back"
@@agentwowza This but actually. my peak in 6v6 was low plat. my peak in ow2 is masters 4
@@xxswagmastermike_7kxx568 Its because it turns into a spam fest especially in small choke areas when its double tank. its not fun and when ppl discovered the tank meta especially on 2CP maps players quit in droves and the que times were horrible the last few years of OW1.
@@Dewawon6212cp is gone
OW1 2-2-2 Queue Times cannot be used as an argument against 2-2-2 itself because:
(1) The rampant CC issue was never addressed in a big way to improve the game play experience of Tank players
(2) OW1 2-2-2 released with a horrid roster of 8 Tanks, 16 DPS, 7 Supports, and the ONLY new hero we got for 3 years was Echo; our 17th DPS hero when we already had so many
(3) Completely selfish Tank designs in OW1 2-2-2 (Roadhog & Wrecking Ball) were never addressed, all Tanks need to give some level of defensive value to their team to take pressure off the other Tank and make for way less bad Tank combos.
While that makes sense in this vacuum of people who want to yk get better games , this is not the case with the more casual player base . They really don’t want to wait those 8-15 minutes for a game no matter how much better it is
Unless the change you mention when transition to 6v6 will more than double the tank player we currently have. Combine with the fact a game need 12 people not just 10. Queue Times will suffer for sure.
"(3) Completely selfish Tank designs in OW1 2-2-2 (Roadhog & Wrecking Ball) were never addressed, all Tanks need to give some level of defensive value to their team to take pressure off the other Tank and make for way less bad Tank combos."
Wait, so why don't you offer your team defensive value? Watch OW1 games with high rank players, supports peel for each other, even pocket Mercies go back and heal.
What you're talking about as "selfish" is actually the tank eating the enemies' attention and cooldowns so people have a free hand to act. By your definition Winston is just as selfish as Hammond.
@@KingOfNebbishes No, Wrecking Ball in OW1 had no way to sustain his team, whereas Winston has a barrier he can place to block damage that would normally hit his team.
OW2 Wrecking Ball is fine because he can give some Overhealth to allies, we needed something like the OW2 Wrecking Ball rework in 2-2-2 as well.
@@michaelc7418 If you're demanding Winston use his barrier to protect the team, you fundamentally don't understand how to play tank. Period.
God I wish this Freedo would stop talking so much, so that we could listen to Flats, Sam and Spilo. Legitimately, every time he talks, I struggle to pay attention and just get frustrated by how LONG he’s talking about nothing
I don't understand why Flats is even there, he just wants to sit on the fence and criticize the people having an engaging and thought provoking conversation about the topics being discussed. Dude, this is a podcast to discuss the different issues going on with the game. If you don't have strong opinions either way that's completely fine but again, why are you even here then? I really appreciate Freedo and Sam for coming on and willing to actually argue their positions and why they feel the way they do. Is everyone gonna always agree? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that everyone is "nitpicking arguments", a conversation is about responding to what the other person is saying. I never felt like anyone was attacking or nitpicking the other person, just engaging and listening to what each person was saying. I don't know, but I especially felt like his response at 2:15:13 was just really dismissive and frankly childish on a podcast SPECIFICALLY for discussing different viewpoints about the game. Again, not everyone cares about arguing and debating, and that's totally okay, but if you're that kind of person don't criticize people who are willing to argue their point. Some people enjoy having a nuanced discussion with someone with an opposing viewpoint (and some people, like myself, like listening to them) Much love to Sam and Freedo
Uhhh, hm, I don't think that his position and sentiment is pointless, I think his acknowledgement of the way the arguments play out is reasonable. The arguments often get so deep in the nitty gritty and "my side vs your side" that even though they are still productive conversation, they lose the big picture a lot of the time and in a limited time frame you have to kinda stick to big picture. And he is also right that they often lose sight of what things are just personal preferences and this extends to the community as well. However I do agree that his vibe was too dismissive and detached.
I'm not gonna lie I usually like Flats but I agree. I think he's trying way too hard to play peacekeeper and is a bit too concerned with "animousity" between Sam and Freedo and the people who flock to their sides, but problems don't get solved unless the people who have them are willing to come to blows and hammer out either a victor or a compromise and you don't get either if you just stop people from having the argument in the first place.
That's why I loved watching Samito's response to GSRaider's "shill problem" video. He may have disagreed with a lot of GSRaider's accusations but at the end of the day he addressed them, and when arguments get addressed, progress gets made.
Very true, flats being a nice guy with good charisma kind of causes people to not realize that he’s a bit of an annoying fence sitter who just nit picks other people’s solutions then says “I don’t know both sides make good points” when asked about his own solutions. He be trying to market himself to appeal to the most people 🤣
That part annoyed tf outta me as well. More so than freedo's rants, surprisingly enough. I don't like freedo, but at the very least, he has the balls to stand on business and defend 5v5 even tho it is crumbling to the ground. Flats coming in and being like "yea both of you are just wrong, just shut up about it," makes me think he has no real purpose here
2:49:09 OMG rolling on the floor laughing rn
Sam: you just made an agreement about role lock using open queue as an example do you think that's far.
Freedo: yes because people will play what they want not what wins. Example people one tricking.
Everyone: acutually one tricking has gone done so your point is falling apart
Freedo: I am a journalistic God above everyone because I speak with "JOURNALISTIC INTREGITY" and you guys aren't
we need to be able to find groups to play w. many solo players hate playing solo. clans, tournaments. that would be fire.
that's discord.
@@VELO_ALEXeveryone says this but LFG discords just aren't what they used to be, I haven't had success in an LFG discord in a while for any game. Plus they straight removed that feature, which despite what a few people like to say was pretty widely used. I used it literally every time I played and it took like 2-3 minutes tops to find a group
7v7 fixes q times and gives more agency to DPS. It’s also a completely different format so they can’t be accused of just going back to ow 1. He’s cooking so fucking hard rn and nobody knows it.
There's no chance PS4/Switch can handle 14 players in the OW2 engine, and it seems like it would make supps become forced into fulltime heal bot playstyle. It's a cool potential idea for OW3 but not a viable path for OW2 if it involves dropping support for multiple consoles.
You'd actually need to reduce the impact of individual dps to make them not overrun the whole lobby
One consequence Sam'd love about this, it'd be an indirect nerf mercy too :D
@@gphonk7359and I'm of the opinion of that we shouldn't hold games back for older generations of consoles. Current gen of consoles have been out for 3 years now plenty of time for ppl to upgrade to better systems. Btw Nintendo systems have always been lowest preforming systems and never going to change bc Nintendo knows ppl but their systems not for 3rd party software but for their own developed games like Pokemon, Zelda and Smash Bros. I remember back in the day that support for older generations are was drop a year after the release of the next, it time to go back to that so games can continue to move forward and get better.
@@AnimeOtaku56. why wouldn’t they just do 1-3-1 if dps are the problem?
@@gphonk7359I hope they never release OW3. It’s pointless.
this episode couldve been legendary why tf is freedo here 😭
Because a debate needs both sides. Not a 6v6 and 2 neutrals. I mostly agree 6v6 enjoyer, but its not called “the great echo chamber” it’s called “the great debate”
It’s called the debate, not the “we all agree and echo each other”
But guys ! Stop talking about 6v6 !! It’s separate the community and create division !! Stop expressing yourself about the game you love !! This is just nostalgia and rose’s tinted glasses !!
I want an apology with tears and a Yukulele
Just because the devs are acknowledging this doesn't mean all the crybaby brigading and cult-like behavior is justified. Grow up
@@tropicatasomeone sounds mad 😂
@@tropicatawomp womp
@@tropicatayeah and completely dismissing the other side because of the annoying people is why they become louder lmao, get with the program bro
“No point in talking about 6v6 it will never happen bro”
It’s crazy how the view count on OW content has started increasing since they mentioned 6v6 potentially coming back.
We’re almost there guys ❤️
2:15:07 okay flats .. at some point you gotta grow a pair and speak up. Say something dude. Have some sort of original opinion or thought and stop worrying about having that next Aaron interview. How are you gonna be the “tank rep” and not speak up at this point. Here’s something you could say, how about they spilt the tank role into 2. If everyone is worried about two shields make main tank and off tank have to be separate and when you que for tanks, you have to be either or. Just a freakin thought…
This is the dumbest idea because you're just making the terrible queue times of 6v6 way worse because now you're looking for tanks of the same skill specifically on main, the most unpopular position.
Split the game into main/off tank, hitscan/projectile dps, main/flex support. Im sure that wont have any affect on queue times at all!
/s this is a brainrot idea that will make it a million times worse
@@YazzPott Trynna figured out who said all that.? I said split tank xD
@@Jae_JETT And Im being facetious, telling you its already the least queued role, and splitting into 2 is beyond stupid
Dps is the most problematic role because it's the closest to normal fps mechanics but also because the ratio of heroes compared to the other roles is largely skewed, making it the most popular role. Therefore, to help que times, the devs need to release significantly more tank and support heroes to balance the standard deviation of the heros players choose to main.
DPS can never be the "star" role as they put it otherwise *everyone* is suffering, Tanks are just there to get hit, supports be hunted while the dps duel for the wins, Queue times skyrocket and we get to the end of OW1 again where it's instant queues for tank and support 15+ for dps
It's also a massive part of why the "low skill heroes should never be top tier" arguments fall through, they almost always boil down to "me have 2 aim better, me should win" if it's all about aim, if you're just going to be a discount dps, why not go full dps
I wonder if the original draft of the statement had a line graph over time rather than the six bars. Just because of this sentence: “The sharp drop-off in queue times in October of 2022 is when Overwatch 2, along with 5v5, shipped.” That data would answer some questions.
Yeah, I personally want to see q time difference between now and ow2 release
Between the lineup, length, and blog I know this is gonna be a great and wild one
Freedo gotta be one of the most hate-able people I’ve ever heard lol
I'm not a fan either, but I think that might be a tad far 😅
@@spew42 the way he talks down to everyone is so annoying and manipulative
@@ecclecticsayonce5131 from this brief interaction, you seem equally condescending
@@Void-Knull 😴
My god freedo is dense af
Overwatch 1 balance team is what killed 6v6. We need to stop blaming the format for horrible balance and hero design. Letting the new team cook with 6v6 will not bring back double shield and other in game issues as long as the team doesn’t buff brig and bap or any other AoE healing too much. We have so many new heroes and reworked heroes the game is going to be different than it was even in 6v6. Really disappointed in flats for that take. 6v6 was not the problem and I’m tired of people attributing what they hated about overwatch one to the format when there were clear moments where balance was good and the 6v6 format could shine
2:10:00 too be fair to freedo, i dont think the type of players that would play the 6v6 overwatch 2 code Are your normal overwatch enjoyers. These are people who likely watch educational content, streamers, play the game alot, maybe they also play pugs and scrims alot. but they are hardstuck players for whatever reason.
Like you might have a team of plat players. Is it a team of plat players that all watch spilo and have played their respective heroes for like at least 100 hours each? Or is it a team of plat players that are just practicing different heroes, they just came from work, and their dog is barking to go outside?
I don't understand what you're trying to say
@@YagizaSan ?
After playing the 6v6 code its night and day how much we lost in terms of gameplay going with 5v5. 5v5 undoubtedly creates and inherently unbalanced tank experience that the devs have been trying to fix since the inception of overwatch 2. This has caused the quality of gameplay to go way down the way samito describes. I encourage others to play the code like samito says and you can judge for yourselves.
The majority have played it bro... in OW1 and the MAJORITY quit lmao... I swear some of you just have nostalgia and forget OW1 was pretty shitty too.
@Dewawon621 people didn't quit, we were forced to play 5v5 and no one asked for it.
@@Dewawon621Well, the majority left when they announced that they were gonna stop updating OW1 to work on OW2 PVE/Story Mode.
And when you tell people “hey we’re gonna stop updating this game, just wait for our sequel” most are gonna get bored of the unchanging original game and move on while waiting for the sequel.
That’s why when OW2 came back with less features than the first and a middling to shit PVP experience for the casual player it got so much hate from the wider gaming community. People were hyped up to believe the sequel was gonna be great, it wasn’t, so people stay gone. Had 6v6 affected this? Maybe a bit, but at the same time it wasn’t anywhere near the sole reason people left the game
why is freedo here again?
Go crawl back into your echo chamber then 👋 why are you here
Lemme guess. Sam has convinced you 5v5 is the reason why you’re hardstuck in Silver 3?
Because he gives another interesting point of view to the discussion, and he's just as passionate about the game as the other guests
@@mrpetebojangles21lemme guess you’re going around hating on Sam in every chance you ever get
who knows
This is 10 mins shorter than the snyder cut
Freedo is insufferable, as is tradition.