Now 0.6.0 builds might make the ship feel more viable.. or not, since RPF will warn people of exactly where you are. Honestly I doubt even the new captain perks can save this ship in its current state, the other DDs are simply more fun to play.
Eating Flashbang I have Yamato and Iowa and i am a almost at Des Moines and i was wondering if German BBs are worth it or if I should go for Russian Cruisers
If the Z-52 had the Z-23's 150mm guns in dual mounts like the front Z-23 turret at the Nurnbergs 6s reload and "optional" firerate equipment, it would be actually viable over other DD's, and understandable to have a cruiser-sized detection radius when shooting. Plus the added bonus of bringing something actually new to the table instead of just being a universally worse than every other DD... save the Shima on firerate.
I played USSR DD's way before they were...buffed. DD's like Gnevny, Ognevoi were horrible, at best. I started playing them again with Kiev and..Kraken's and matches with 400 main gun hits, 17 fires etc. They are beasts now and i do enjoy them....horribly much! I'm only mentioning this because i was surprised at how well USSR DD's can perform now (i stopped playing the game for awhile). ...or not, subconsciously i can't shake of the fact that WG is too prejudiced/biased in favor of Russian whatever. Good thing it doesn't show. But again historically accurate at least...
Learn what? there is nothing a BB or CA can do against a stealth firing DD spamming HE and constantly burning you down. With that said they're not overpowered and won't be getting nerfed. There is just nothing to learn to counter the current stealth firing HE spamming US and USSR DD meta.
Casval 214 Learn what.. Team play.. not getting isolated... random course changes.. a few things like that.. all of which are tools that used properly will defeat stealth DD's... Wanna see where stealth DD's are ineffective?? Team play because the team works together to ferret out the stealth DD's.. something that is unheard of in 90% of random battles.
team play is Op, agreed. That rule applies in any game though, agreed? You say ppl do not team play in random battles 90%, so then, what? Personally i think there's always a way to counter stealth for a BB, be aware, stay close to others etc. Very simple things. Also, you may want to consider some things as feedback rather than "complains". Some things become -i have noticed- a trend on the Internet, words and expressions, and ppl use them because it is trendy, not because they understand. ppl who give feedback care about the game, ppl who dismiss irrationally anything as "complain", do not . imo ofc. i may be wrong, but yes, my point was not for team play but for how obvious biased the Devs are. I also was sarcastic about it, but i know sarcasm is hard to understand. Anyway, thanks for the replies.
malaquey Yep. Everytime I play German ships I feel fooled by WG because I spend so many hours leveling up my Roon hoping to get an AP monster but instead I got a high tier cleveland.
I feel like people tend to be overthinking the German cruisers. Spec for HE. Roon is great at starting fires if you kit it out with all the bells and whistles.
Snagabott That is the problem right there. The Roon and the hindy are both excellent fire starters. But that is not what I wanted them for. Its like spending so much time on a girl finds out she's a man on wedding night.
+zhongming wen +Nono Nunu Exactly that. HE is the weakest part about the german cruisers and having to gear for the weakness to get the ship to work reliably well, isn't even a fun thought, it's a thought that should make one's head explode. It's like suggesting a bald man, who complains about the cold wind, to grow some hair.
It makes me sad when they bring out new lines of navies which people really want to see (myself included) and they make them really underwhelming. Like the RN cruiser line is still unpolished with the smoke bug and I have a feeling that WG is going to fuck up the RN BB line :/
Tom Meakin I have that feeling too. Maybe in the end they will fk up every line then they be like everyone is kind of fked up in some ways so the game is balanced.
Imo RN cruisers are one of the best line they ever designed. I love the fact that they force themselves to find gimmicks to new lines, imo that's cool. And this one was challenging yet very fun !
Don't get me wrong, since tier 6 I've been finding a fair bit of success and enjoyment out of the RN cruiser line. I can make the AP only work, and I like the way lines can have weaknesses and strengths. My only real serious complaint about the RN line is that fucking smoke bug where you only get one puff instead of at least two. It's literally a dice roll when i pop my smoke, and most of the time I seem to be getting the bug (no exaggeration). If I didn't know it was a bug and I didn't understand the mechanics, I'd think the bug was getting more than 1 puff....
Tom Meakin When I play the Belfast it seems like my smoke is what got me killed the most. I either gone too slow to play it safe but before my smoke pops I got rekt or I gone too fast and I came to realize I got WGed.
You have discovered and explained exactly what I experienced in these boats. After the IJN line mish-mash I was looking forward to something I might have a little fun with, but the German line is overall kinda weak. I'm losing interest in WoW and have resorted to sailing low tier premium reward ships & seal clubbing. Occasionally I take out the Fletcher, but that too will get beaten down if they release RPF. So long WoW. Been fun.
I have had some success with the Z-52 by constantly alternating between playstyles. What I mean: Have smoke + sonar? Play it like a Gearing or a Lo Yang, or a British CL. Smoke is on cooldown but speed boost is ready? Play it like a Khabarovsk (with speed flags + speed boost you can get to decent speeds). Or pretend that you're an Atlanta (by using islands as cover if possible). Speed boost is down but smoke is ready again? Switch back again to playing it like a Gearing or a British CL. And so on and so on. Works for me... somewhat. XD
yeah, that's what I was getting at. but all the way up to RN AP sounds excessive... maybe something a little superior to Russian DD AP might be balanced (with the same 3000 alpha damage)
Not even the OMNI hax package could save this boat Edit: I'd give the german DDs a heal. A single heal that has a duration of 10 seconds and heals 3% of the ships HP per second. With SE (24300HP) you would be able to heal a maximum amount of 7290HP (only light damage). But for that you would have to give up hydro.
I finally ran into a z52 one-on-one with my gearing at about 5km range and I was shocked at how pathetic it was. We were both full health but I gunned him down in about 15 seconds, only losing about 1/2 my health. The thing is so big you can't miss, but his guns just don't seem to have much effect on an angled ship.
People complain when ships are underpowered or unplayable. People complain when ships are overpowered or there's a lot of power creep. People complain when ships are just good or average and not special. Basically, people are never happy and just want something besides what they have.
Agreed. And just because a ship is new doesn't mean it should be the best of it's class. Seems like people just want every new thing to be the best (especially if it's German), then other people quit the game while they wait for a nerf, like with the Khab. German DD's are fine how they are. Now we can get French and Italian DD's and they won't be completely worthless.
I can only speak from my experience, but it is alarming how rarely you actually encounter these new DDs. Even if you take into account that DDs are less popular than CL/CAs and BBs, it seems like a lot of players got scared by this hastily implemented nerf and did not even bother to play the new line. Which basically makes the german DDs the second new line after the british cruisers (arguably) which were just completely imbalanced and poorly designed.
Indeed. I recall seeing more Russian DDs, Cruisers, German Cruisers and of course their BBs (A LOT OF THEM!) when the each respective lines were released than when the RN CL and german DD got released.
Your points may be true, but they do not change the fact that the german DDs are unremarkable at best and obsolete and non-competitive at worst. Also, there was a certain amount of hype around the german DDs in the german community for example. So I would say that quite a lot of people looked forward to their release. It may have been the case that for some time, the low tiers were full of them, but I never saw the interest in a line vanish so quickly before. I do not think that this has something to do with some negative press or negative third party influence, I would rather say that most players made an unsatisfying experience (or satisfying, when they encountered them as opponents) with those new DDs.
***** True, I also noticed that to a certain degree. But one thing I still would like to address is your summary of the german DDs. You described them as pretty average with no outstanding (positive, I suppose) stats, but with some weakpoints. So basically they are good at nothing, but still have severe drawbacks in certain areas. Does that really qualify them as "average"? The british cruisers have their strong heal, smoke and ridicoulus AP-performance which at least makes up to a certain point for the squishiness and lack of HE. But the german DDs have nothing like that.
+iDs Hunter For me, something qualifies as "average" when it has neither specific strenghts nor weaknesses. This does not fit the german DDs in my opinion. There is no aspect they are particulary good at or something that makes them outstanding from the other lines in a positive way. At the same time, they have a lot of remarkable weaknesses like: - The weak HE they share with most of the german cruisers. - Their AP, supposedly one of their strenghts, is ridicoulusly situational. Situational to a point where even the slightest angling makes it de facto useless. Again something they have in common with the german cruisers. - They are extremely vulnerable to AP, if not even more vulnerable than to HE. They in fact get completely wrecked by AP. - They tend to be larger than the other nation´s DDs and are therefore easier to hit without having a compensation of higher speed like the Tashkent for example. - The bloom when firing the guns is completely over the top and cripples them massively - Last but not least, they have also the worst smoke of all DDs, with even shorter duration than the smoke of the russian DDs. Therefore I do not really seem them as "average". I do not doubt that some people will eventually manage to get them to work, but I for myself can not see a point in playing a line that is just completely inferior to any existing one.
I stopped at the Tier 5 destroyer. I really enjoyed the Tier 4 German DD, did well with it, but once the forward torpedoes were gone on the next ship their only advantage was lost, imo.
Dang it Flamu! This is supposed to be a torp boat and a support boat! Make use of its advantage same goes to Moskva! In the early match, go in cap when enemy DD hide in smoke capping and then you smoke up and pop up hydro WITH your allied DD! (The best is Khaba ofc if you have in your team). And kill off enemy DD easily without worrying of incoming TORPS!! Secondly, YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A TORP BOAT!! Lower down the reload time of torps and you can get close to 1 min reload(and with the new captain skill, adrenaline rush, can bring it even lower) and then don't forget to go for max concealment to work efficiently! Make USE of its stealth torp, fast torp and its reload! Come on Flamu, this DD imo is UNDERRATED!! The guns are just a PLUS!!
@Flamu Do you think if they fix german AP (give them better than average shell normalization for instance) for cruisers and dds, that it would be enough to make it viable? I really don't feel the hydro+smoke combo was sooo strong that they had to kill the smoke duration. They could've gave it more "puffs".
But like Flamu says in the video, it's an easy trap to avoid if you know it's coming. And it only gets really bad when it comes to the Z-52 because of the better hydro (yay extra nerfs). I mean the lo yang's been around for a bit and that wasn't too bad.
German DDs seem to work better in a support role, because you cant really Leeroy cap rush or Lone Wolf. So all I can recommend is (and I actually wish more DDs did this) find a Top tier BB or CV and protect them from other DDs.
Remember when the German BBs were introduced, they were the worst of their class? And now they are the best. Maybe the German DDs are not completely lost. Maybe.
Ok, they were bad before they were available to all players. Jingles had this sneak peak at the pre-buff German BBs, and he wasn't very happy about their performance.
I recall Jingles was disappointed with one of them but said it was a fun line once you got past that rotten egg. Also, I stopped watching Jingles because he only somewhat knows what he's talking about.
Only ships I enjoyed so far are the T6 and the T8 and that is because of the guns! 150mm just stands out and you can have amazing fun games, like blasting a Molotov out of the water in 2 salvoes *gg* Don't know why they went like this with the ship line and gave them the possibility to fit big guns on every ship. I was unable to reliably citadel a Minotaur in the Z-52 from 3 km at full broadside... A Gearing would have laughed about this!
this line does nothing better than the competition. Tashkent was widely considered to be the worst of the higher tier DDs but it is knocking on OP in comparison to KM. How bad is that when the formally worst looks like the second coming.
While we're talking about German ships: is there any chance that you will make a commentary on the Roon? I got it yesterday and I like it so far. I'd just like to hear your opinion on it with a little comparison to other tier 9 cruisers. That would be great!
They just need to buff the pen of german cruisers and dds hard ( possibly the best in the game) for them to actually be of any use. It is just laughable that the most AP focussed nation has the worst AP in the game ( or at least the second worst). Also they should give all german dds from t5 onwards the 150mm guns so they get some flavour.
Even if they want to get rid of stealth firing the concealment debuff after firing the guns ont he german DDs is ridicolous... an increase to, lets say, 1 or 2 km above normal range would've been enough... if you fire on huge distances thanks to upgrades and skills it is unlikely for you to hit anyway...
so let's get this straight. If thenerf on invisifire ruined the German DDs does this mean this sill also ruin all DDs (except Russian DDs) once they nerf all invisifire?
according to iEarlGrey there will be a second Public Test for update 6.0 so there could still be change a lot and maybe you can try things yourself on the test server
You forget that Flamu is a unicum that can make any turd shine at least once and what he did here (besides the hydro to clear out the cap at the beginning) could have been done better in a Khab
it seems wargaming is rushing its updates more lately to give us something new to play. this makes it that what they give us is either broken or way to OP (mostly broken or weak). i hope they are going to address this problem or listen to the community contributors to change what is bad and keep what is good.
rather than release a ship and then nerf it. I wonder if they are adopting a strategy of releasing slightly weaker ships and then buffing them over time it to balance them.
Im at t5 right now and ive been fiddling with them on the pts and idk if I can go up the line honestly t10 is kinda fun I like it more then Shima but they get their asses beat by USN and Soviet dds
The german BB line is awesome until the Bismarck, which is the last awesome ship in the line. The cruisers are absolutely amazing, the BBs are meh and the DDs are utter shit.
Eating Flashbang the tier 10 german bb is awesome though. insane hp of 105k, and armor that makes it a task to even damage. though it's guns are inaccurate, it is made for close range brawling. i love the ship in my opinion.
Wut. The IJN dd line may have been "most nerfed", but it's actually in a good spot right now. The German dd don't excel at anything and get a hydro to make up for 1. poor speed 2. poor maneuverability (for such a big boat) 3. poor concealment 4. poor HE/shell trajectory 5. mediocre torpedoes/fewer tubes 6. shorter smoke. Take away the hydro and you're left with a bad DD. If WG would sort at least one of the above mentioned issues, the dd could be somewhat of a nuisance. Right now, though, I care even less for their potential threat in battles than I do for playing the German dd line. If WG doesn't fix these issues, they better hurry up and remove stealth firing across the board. Yeah, Russian boats can hardly (if at all) stealth fire, but they have the speed and/or maneuverability to not care + they have the range and shell velocity to actually hit things other than straight sailing BBs.
Eating Flashbang not necessarily. kurfurst has 12 420mm guns, which means it has more total broadside weight. yamato may have the best guns with the best damage and penetration, but it doesn't have the armor scheme that kurfurst has. yamato has an all or nothing mixed with an incremental scheme where kurfurst has a turtleback scheme. yamato has a chance at far to mid range engagements and can kill kurfurst easier, but kurfurst's turtleback means when it gets up close as in 8km or less yamato will have a really hard time dealing with it. the citadel of kurfurst is very low and protected by the turtleback which means it is nearly impossible to citadel at close range, but normal hits do decent damage. keep the grosser kurfurst at range and you'll be fine, but once it gets closer than 10 km yamato will be torn apart by it's main guns and it's secondaries.
from what I can see they nefed the Stealth firing due to complaints from the whining errr lower IQ players ( I think thats a nice way to say it ) its a shame as they could have been on par with the others but just a bit different , I am stoping at tier 4 I think :)
hmm, I've watched that before. I guess I don't get it. I watched the build part at the end. I always assumed what you were saying was more straightforward. Oh well. =) no worries.
Flamu says in the linked video: "And why I call it the 3x4 build is, you take three (3) four (4) point perks." (so 3 is amount of the perks and 4 is the cost of individual perk i.e. you don't take any 5 point skill).
Yeh... im.. ehm i tryed to play/grind german destroyers.... i got to t4 it was pfft i got my pants pulled down and i... What can i do Just play and get over it? i dont have premium account, or dubloons, no good captain ..looks like im gonna play battleships.... as i got my first t7 german battleship and im moving same captain to next ship using flags to get past training.... im a beginner LOL
+Flamu, what if wargaming removed the concealment module and skill from all DDs and pick and choose the best spotting range and such on every single one? what would that do?
I always find it funny when Flamu says a ship isn't worth playing, and yet still scores an amount of damage more than three times the server average and, while not on top of the team, is pretty damn close to it. Then, going on about how bad good ships are, like the Graf Spee, the best performing tier 6 cruiser by a wide margin, isn't worth playing. Flamu's opinion on ships has gotten to the point of worthless to me. Great player, sure, but his opinions on ships just...doesn't agree with their performance. So what if you're detected when firing though? That's hurt the Khabarovsk since...never? Seriously. This whole "German DDs are trash" thing is getting way out of hand and incredibly old. It's hilarious, because with the exception of tier 5, the German destroyers are performing best of all the tech tree destroyers. But, please, do go on about how awful these ships are.
I love how this guy never replies to any of the comments on his video's. You'll see practically every video where people ask what mod he runs and he never answers. Time to unsubscribe from this guy. It's an option as part of the Aslain mod. aslain.com/index.php?/topic/2020-05161-aslains-wows-modpack-installer-wpicture-preview/
German DD line is garbage. Yeah you can have good games and fun times, but the fact is they dont have that thing what would make them stand out and they have far too many cons compared to the few pros. Invisifire nerf was uncalled panic reaction from WG because they fear BB players would start the whining again
z52 i.imgur.com/WxTl5K1.png i.imgur.com/0q1u2pI.jpg z46 i.imgur.com/pWJDXJN.png i.imgur.com/hW1ADG5.png I think they are good but different to play if you aren't used to them
WG have a prejudice against Germans and it shows in their games. Even in World of Tanks they seem to fuck German tanks on every level. Always been that way and it's no different in World of Warships. At the moment the Z52 is a mess, it's like the ship was setup by professionals and at the last minute the lead designer who doesn't know shit about the ship decided to make last minute changes while having a hissy fit about the Germans having a good ship. To give you a perspective of how fucking retarded the ship currently is, when you fire a cannon it's visible from 16km. From 13km I can see the tip of a 230m tall sky scraper building past the horizon, pretty much everything else below the tip is invisible because it's below the horizon. So WG is trying to tell me those little Destroyer cannons have a muzzle flash and smoke that is bigger than 300m high? (insert 'you dense mother fuckers' meme here)
Its the smoke counter mod when u activate smoke it counts down the first and last smoke puff. it only doesnt work in replays that why its not counting down in the video.
Their complete concept base is crap. Look at the US ships, they are suposed to be masters of AA. But in fact the British T10 CA is the best AA ship in the game.
I see you dont care about being announced in chat......... But, that may work at your advantage. Since if you are a well known sealclubber (joking ofcourse), then the enemies might screw it up entirely. So in that sense i think it aint too bad to be announced in chat. PLUS. It wasnt him producing the videos, right? You basically have put yourself in that position.
Wargaming in general is wanting to make the game less 'stealthy'.. Who cares that DD's were very stealthy in real life.. who cares that the vast majority of DD kills in reality came from DD's that were never seen.... Who cares about reality.. obviously not WG. So much for wargamings claim about realism. WG is pandering to the whining Cruiser and BB drivers (mainly BB) who don't know how to play their ships and penalizing those that do know how to play DD's correctly and accurately. Average BB driver to wargaming: "Boo hoo.. a DD sank me from outside of detection range because *_I_* didn't turn... because *_I_* drove in a straight line for 10km like a moron.. because *_I_* don't know what I am doing... save me from my own laziness and stupidity WG.. pls pls save me..." The coming RDF *_NERF_* is just another example of this.
Well if it had to fit reality we wouldn't call it a game, we would call it a simulator. I don't get people talking about reality in this game were shells fly at like mach 3 and warships are bigger than cities you see on islands.
Jaeger It might not be class specific... but it *_does_* affect the DD class the most... DD's are supposed to be stealthy to the extent that IRL once DD's entered combat, most shut off all emission, radio as well, so they would not be detected.. and here WG is not taking that into account. I'm not at all saying that ppl wanted it.. but at the same time, if people were not complaining about DD's, even though it's really their own fault they died, then this would not have been on the board... It's affecting their money stream. Asshole??? Grow up child. you have now proven yourself to BE one of the shitty players I talk about, here and in the other thread you and I are on.. and probably 10 years old too.
@ Jager Well especially BB captains ARE the ones, that are complaining most. Remember the discussion about angled armour on BBS? Where other BBs could not penetrate angled BBs? EVEN FOR THEMSELVES! They wanted to cature towards that complaint and almost screwed armour up for BBs, because of BB whining. Same goes for fires. How the fuck shall a not torp based ship, like the Des Moines, or even Moskva deal effective dmg to an angled BB, if not with fires? Same goes for CV nerfs across the board. I myself am a whiny bitch, when it comes to CVs, when im in a BB. You cannot do anything against them ALONE, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD BE LIKE. This game is supposed to be rock paper scissors, but WG is slowly going towards making BBs everything at once. The radio skill will be pretty much an essential on every ship in future, which is a DIRECT nerf for DDs and you know why? Because DDs are a direct counter to BBs, the biggest part of the community, which is getting their asses pamperd, because of whining and whom this skill is made for, so they can actually have a counter against a class, who they are not supposed to counter at all...
***** It's funny you mention subs... Did you win the extra captains in the ARP challenges??? I did and was just looking at mine... 2 of them are listed as SUBMARINE captains for a ship called the ARP I-401... I wonder.... WG said long ago they would not put subs in the game.. now I am not so sure..
"A pile of shit held afloat by a strong hydro-acoustic search" Best description ever Flamu
Now 0.6.0 builds might make the ship feel more viable.. or not, since RPF will warn people of exactly where you are. Honestly I doubt even the new captain perks can save this ship in its current state, the other DDs are simply more fun to play.
Hey Flamu! Do you believe that German BBs or Russian Cruisers are more worth it for grinding to tier 10?
If you want a BB, get Yamato. Moskva is fine though, just learn how to use armor.
German BBs are fun to grind, but the T10 is not the most usefull ship in the game for clan or ranked. Still fun tho.
Eating Flashbang I have Yamato and Iowa and i am a almost at Des Moines and i was wondering if German BBs are worth it or if I should go for Russian Cruisers
Yamato is stronger, go for Moskva.
If the Z-52 had the Z-23's 150mm guns in dual mounts like the front Z-23 turret at the Nurnbergs 6s reload and "optional" firerate equipment, it would be actually viable over other DD's, and understandable to have a cruiser-sized detection radius when shooting.
Plus the added bonus of bringing something actually new to the table instead of just being a universally worse than every other DD... save the Shima on firerate.
"This ship is garbage!" - still does 165k damage. :D
You can nerf the ship, but you can't nerf the Flamu.
I played USSR DD's way before they were...buffed. DD's like Gnevny, Ognevoi were horrible, at best. I started playing them again with Kiev and..Kraken's and matches with 400 main gun hits, 17 fires etc. They are beasts now and i do enjoy them....horribly much! I'm only mentioning this because i was surprised at how well USSR DD's can perform now (i stopped playing the game for awhile).
...or not, subconsciously i can't shake of the fact that WG is too prejudiced/biased in favor of Russian whatever. Good thing it doesn't show. But again historically accurate at least...
I remember playing ognevoi and getting both turrets destroyed before losing 1hp
Fun times
That will change.. WG will nerf them soon because the BB/CA drivers will complain rather than learn.
Learn what? there is nothing a BB or CA can do against a stealth firing DD spamming HE and constantly burning you down. With that said they're not overpowered and won't be getting nerfed. There is just nothing to learn to counter the current stealth firing HE spamming US and USSR DD meta.
Casval 214 Learn what.. Team play.. not getting isolated... random course changes.. a few things like that.. all of which are tools that used properly will defeat stealth DD's...
Wanna see where stealth DD's are ineffective?? Team play because the team works together to ferret out the stealth DD's.. something that is unheard of in 90% of random battles.
team play is Op, agreed. That rule applies in any game though, agreed? You say ppl do not team play in random battles 90%, so then, what? Personally i think there's always a way to counter stealth for a BB, be aware, stay close to others etc. Very simple things.
Also, you may want to consider some things as feedback rather than "complains". Some things become -i have noticed- a trend on the Internet, words and expressions, and ppl use them because it is trendy, not because they understand. ppl who give feedback care about the game, ppl who dismiss irrationally anything as "complain", do not . imo ofc. i may be wrong, but yes, my point was not for team play but for how obvious biased the Devs are. I also was sarcastic about it, but i know sarcasm is hard to understand.
Anyway, thanks for the replies.
i feel like german AP in general needs to have its pen buffed, maybe nerf the damage if that's then too op
malaquey Yep. Everytime I play German ships I feel fooled by WG because I spend so many hours leveling up my Roon hoping to get an AP monster but instead I got a high tier cleveland.
I feel like people tend to be overthinking the German cruisers. Spec for HE. Roon is great at starting fires if you kit it out with all the bells and whistles.
Ofc it's not bad at starting fire everywhere. But then why play a Roon if there's Ibuki or Donskoi ?
Snagabott That is the problem right there. The Roon and the hindy are both excellent fire starters. But that is not what I wanted them for. Its like spending so much time on a girl finds out she's a man on wedding night.
+zhongming wen +Nono Nunu Exactly that. HE is the weakest part about the german cruisers and having to gear for the weakness to get the ship to work reliably well, isn't even a fun thought, it's a thought that should make one's head explode. It's like suggesting a bald man, who complains about the cold wind, to grow some hair.
It makes me sad when they bring out new lines of navies which people really want to see (myself included) and they make them really underwhelming. Like the RN cruiser line is still unpolished with the smoke bug and I have a feeling that WG is going to fuck up the RN BB line :/
Tom Meakin I have that feeling too. Maybe in the end they will fk up every line then they be like everyone is kind of fked up in some ways so the game is balanced.
Haha that made me laugh dude
Imo RN cruisers are one of the best line they ever designed. I love the fact that they force themselves to find gimmicks to new lines, imo that's cool. And this one was challenging yet very fun !
Don't get me wrong, since tier 6 I've been finding a fair bit of success and enjoyment out of the RN cruiser line. I can make the AP only work, and I like the way lines can have weaknesses and strengths. My only real serious complaint about the RN line is that fucking smoke bug where you only get one puff instead of at least two. It's literally a dice roll when i pop my smoke, and most of the time I seem to be getting the bug (no exaggeration). If I didn't know it was a bug and I didn't understand the mechanics, I'd think the bug was getting more than 1 puff....
Tom Meakin When I play the Belfast it seems like my smoke is what got me killed the most. I either gone too slow to play it safe but before my smoke pops I got rekt or I gone too fast and I came to realize I got WGed.
You have discovered and explained exactly what I experienced in these boats. After the IJN line mish-mash I was looking forward to something I might have a little fun with, but the German line is overall kinda weak.
I'm losing interest in WoW and have resorted to sailing low tier premium reward ships & seal clubbing. Occasionally I take out the Fletcher, but that too will get beaten down if they release RPF.
So long WoW. Been fun.
Irony is this was on my ''recomended to you'' list xD
I have had some success with the Z-52 by constantly alternating between playstyles. What I mean: Have smoke + sonar? Play it like a Gearing or a Lo Yang, or a British CL. Smoke is on cooldown but speed boost is ready? Play it like a Khabarovsk (with speed flags + speed boost you can get to decent speeds). Or pretend that you're an Atlanta (by using islands as cover if possible). Speed boost is down but smoke is ready again? Switch back again to playing it like a Gearing or a British CL. And so on and so on. Works for me... somewhat. XD
I think it might be a fun line if they gave the AP *REALLY* good ballistic properties.
the ballistic is ok, they should have given it AP shells with penetration power and short fusion time like the ones on the british cruisers
yeah, that's what I was getting at. but all the way up to RN AP sounds excessive... maybe something a little superior to Russian DD AP might be balanced (with the same 3000 alpha damage)
Not even the OMNI hax package could save this boat
Edit: I'd give the german DDs a heal. A single heal that has a duration of 10 seconds and heals 3% of the ships HP per second. With SE (24300HP) you would be able to heal a maximum amount of 7290HP (only light damage). But for that you would have to give up hydro.
Or as Wargaming would say: "It's for skilled players." :D
I finally ran into a z52 one-on-one with my gearing at about 5km range and I was shocked at how pathetic it was. We were both full health but I gunned him down in about 15 seconds, only losing about 1/2 my health. The thing is so big you can't miss, but his guns just don't seem to have much effect on an angled ship.
People complain when ships are underpowered or unplayable. People complain when ships are overpowered or there's a lot of power creep. People complain when ships are just good or average and not special. Basically, people are never happy and just want something besides what they have.
Agreed. And just because a ship is new doesn't mean it should be the best of it's class. Seems like people just want every new thing to be the best (especially if it's German), then other people quit the game while they wait for a nerf, like with the Khab. German DD's are fine how they are. Now we can get French and Italian DD's and they won't be completely worthless.
I can only speak from my experience, but it is alarming how rarely you actually encounter these new DDs. Even if you take into account that DDs are less popular than CL/CAs and BBs, it seems like a lot of players got scared by this hastily implemented nerf and did not even bother to play the new line.
Which basically makes the german DDs the second new line after the british cruisers (arguably) which were just completely imbalanced and poorly designed.
Indeed. I recall seeing more Russian DDs, Cruisers, German Cruisers and of course their BBs (A LOT OF THEM!) when the each respective lines were released than when the RN CL and german DD got released.
to be honest you do see some RN CLs but german dds are almost non existent
Your points may be true, but they do not change the fact that the german DDs are unremarkable at best and obsolete and non-competitive at worst.
Also, there was a certain amount of hype around the german DDs in the german community for example. So I would say that quite a lot of people looked forward to their release.
It may have been the case that for some time, the low tiers were full of them, but I never saw the interest in a line vanish so quickly before. I do not think that this has something to do with some negative press or negative third party influence, I would rather say that most players made an unsatisfying experience (or satisfying, when they encountered them as opponents) with those new DDs.
***** True, I also noticed that to a certain degree.
But one thing I still would like to address is your summary of the german DDs.
You described them as pretty average with no outstanding (positive, I suppose) stats, but with some weakpoints. So basically they are good at nothing, but still have severe drawbacks in certain areas. Does that really qualify them as "average"? The british cruisers have their strong heal, smoke and ridicoulus AP-performance which at least makes up to a certain point for the squishiness and lack of HE. But the german DDs have nothing like that.
+iDs Hunter For me, something qualifies as "average" when it has neither specific strenghts nor weaknesses. This does not fit the german DDs in my opinion.
There is no aspect they are particulary good at or something that makes them outstanding from the other lines in a positive way. At the same time, they have a lot of remarkable weaknesses like:
- The weak HE they share with most of the german cruisers.
- Their AP, supposedly one of their strenghts, is ridicoulusly situational. Situational to a point where even the slightest angling makes it de facto useless. Again something they have in common with the german cruisers.
- They are extremely vulnerable to AP, if not even more vulnerable than to HE. They in fact get completely wrecked by AP.
- They tend to be larger than the other nation´s DDs and are therefore easier to hit without having a compensation of higher speed like the Tashkent for example.
- The bloom when firing the guns is completely over the top and cripples them massively
- Last but not least, they have also the worst smoke of all DDs, with even shorter duration than the smoke of the russian DDs.
Therefore I do not really seem them as "average".
I do not doubt that some people will eventually manage to get them to work, but I for myself can not see a point in playing a line that is just completely inferior to any existing one.
watching a yammy with 2-3 fires and 2-3 floodings on it with no repair his disheartening lol
I stopped at the Tier 5 destroyer. I really enjoyed the Tier 4 German DD, did well with it, but once the forward torpedoes were gone on the next ship their only advantage was lost, imo.
Dang it Flamu! This is supposed to be a torp boat and a support boat! Make use of its advantage same goes to Moskva! In the early match, go in cap when enemy DD hide in smoke capping and then you smoke up and pop up hydro WITH your allied DD! (The best is Khaba ofc if you have in your team). And kill off enemy DD easily without worrying of incoming TORPS!! Secondly, YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A TORP BOAT!! Lower down the reload time of torps and you can get close to 1 min reload(and with the new captain skill, adrenaline rush, can bring it even lower) and then don't forget to go for max concealment to work efficiently! Make USE of its stealth torp, fast torp and its reload! Come on Flamu, this DD imo is UNDERRATED!! The guns are just a PLUS!!
Sad news. Thankfully I gave up at tier 4 as these dd's are underwhelming.
@Flamu
Do you think if they fix german AP (give them better than average shell normalization for instance) for cruisers and dds, that it would be enough to make it viable?
I really don't feel the hydro+smoke combo was sooo strong that they had to kill the smoke duration. They could've gave it more "puffs".
But like Flamu says in the video, it's an easy trap to avoid if you know it's coming. And it only gets really bad when it comes to the Z-52 because of the better hydro (yay extra nerfs). I mean the lo yang's been around for a bit and that wasn't too bad.
German DDs seem to work better in a support role, because you cant really Leeroy cap rush or Lone Wolf.
So all I can recommend is (and I actually wish more DDs did this) find a Top tier BB or CV and protect them from other DDs.
Give the German DDs the Royal Navy CA AP. I think that might be a step in the right direction.
Remember when the German BBs were introduced, they were the worst of their class? And now they are the best.
Maybe the German DDs are not completely lost.
Maybe.
German BBs were the best as soon as they came out
Ok, they were bad before they were available to all players. Jingles had this sneak peak at the pre-buff German BBs, and he wasn't very happy about their performance.
I recall Jingles was disappointed with one of them but said it was a fun line once you got past that rotten egg. Also, I stopped watching Jingles because he only somewhat knows what he's talking about.
I know they buffed the survivability of the Großer Kurfürst. Not sure about the rest, but I am pretty sure it was more than just this ship.
FLUX2226 nah, it was just the kurfurst HP buff, and bismarck will get a slight nerf soon anyways
Only ships I enjoyed so far are the T6 and the T8 and that is because of the guns! 150mm just stands out and you can have amazing fun games, like blasting a Molotov out of the water in 2 salvoes *gg*
Don't know why they went like this with the ship line and gave them the possibility to fit big guns on every ship. I was unable to reliably citadel a Minotaur in the Z-52 from 3 km at full broadside... A Gearing would have laughed about this!
German DD, added because the RN cruisers need a reason to justify their existence.
Whattt? RN CLs were my easiest grind ever. Above all the Fiji is absolutely OP.
*****
Indeed, but at Emerald & below it is a nightmare.
this line does nothing better than the competition. Tashkent was widely considered to be the worst of the higher tier DDs but it is knocking on OP in comparison to KM. How bad is that when the formally worst looks like the second coming.
Some Polish guy made all servers damage record of 288k dmg on Z-52. Torps are good cause they reload pretty fast as a tier 10 DD
This ship is better then Gearing. It is also better then Shimikaze. Khabarovsk how ever is king God tier dd despite a 13.5 range limit nerf.
Flamu, do you know roughly when 0.6.0 is going to drop? I'm assuming we're going to get all our commander points reset for us with this patch?
Tom Meakin a minimum of 2 weeks, there's another round on the test server first, it's been confirmed. Probably a bit longer
Ah okay thanks!
While we're talking about German ships: is there any chance that you will make a commentary on the Roon? I got it yesterday and I like it so far. I'd just like to hear your opinion on it with a little comparison to other tier 9 cruisers. That would be great!
They just need to buff the pen of german cruisers and dds hard ( possibly the best in the game) for them to actually be of any use. It is just laughable that the most AP focussed nation has the worst AP in the game ( or at least the second worst). Also they should give all german dds from t5 onwards the 150mm guns so they get some flavour.
Well as a Geram I would say Germany was never realy famous for building great Destroyers... But then again there are no Submarines in the game.
They had the biggest guns of any destroyers during WW2
And alot of them got shit on during the Norwegian campaign, so yeah I totally understand why they seem shit.
You know i thought we´d find a way play them and make them strong... Oh well...
get back to my Cruisers.
Maybe ill get that hindenburg one day.
i would be interested in your view on this now with 0.6.3
Flamu, I am at the Ernst Gaede. Do you think I should continue the line (if there is something decent later on) or drop it and do something else?
Even if they want to get rid of stealth firing the concealment debuff after firing the guns ont he german DDs is ridicolous... an increase to, lets say, 1 or 2 km above normal range would've been enough... if you fire on huge distances thanks to upgrades and skills it is unlikely for you to hit anyway...
Hope the new captain skill tree will make this better
so let's get this straight. If thenerf on invisifire ruined the German DDs does this mean this sill also ruin all DDs (except Russian DDs) once they nerf all invisifire?
Can I get some advice for the new skill tree. For a Russian DD for the fourth line perk should I choose concealment or advanced firing training.
according to iEarlGrey there will be a second Public Test for update 6.0
so there could still be change a lot
and maybe you can try things yourself on the test server
Which HUD mods are you using? I like the info you've got here.
Complains about not being able to use guns. shoots over 200 times sinking Battleships with guns.... This whine was painful.
You forget that Flamu is a unicum that can make any turd shine at least once and what he did here (besides the hydro to clear out the cap at the beginning) could have been done better in a Khab
Totally pointless line at the moment... No real strong points or fun factor.
Any dd can take 10k volleys in t10, I know from experience that even khabs can get deleted in one salvo by a montana :)
"Not fun to play" thats the key sentence for the KM DDs. WG really botched it with that line. Such a waste of time and rescources.
it seems wargaming is rushing its updates more lately to give us something new to play.
this makes it that what they give us is either broken or way to OP (mostly broken or weak).
i hope they are going to address this problem or listen to the community contributors to change what is bad and keep what is good.
Niek van der Meulen If that's the case... Then French ships will be a mess.
rather than release a ship and then nerf it. I wonder if they are adopting a strategy of releasing slightly weaker ships and then buffing them over time it to balance them.
Hi Flamu, what about a review on Nikolai and Gremmy you get this christmas ?
Haven't begun the german DD line yet. Seems it's nothing to look forward to either :/
Of all the YOuTuber's I trust your opinion most.
I won't grind for the Z52 due to this. And you have a liked; buy a -Pripps now ;)
Im at t5 right now and ive been fiddling with them on the pts and idk if I can go up the line honestly t10 is kinda fun I like it more then Shima but they get their asses beat by USN and Soviet dds
Fletcher and Blyskawica best DDs.
The ship is literally so wide that battleships normal pen it.
wg always nerfing german products?
The german BB line is awesome until the Bismarck, which is the last awesome ship in the line. The cruisers are absolutely amazing, the BBs are meh and the DDs are utter shit.
Eating Flashbang the tier 10 german bb is awesome though. insane hp of 105k, and armor that makes it a task to even damage. though it's guns are inaccurate, it is made for close range brawling. i love the ship in my opinion.
Wut. The IJN dd line may have been "most nerfed", but it's actually in a good spot right now. The German dd don't excel at anything and get a hydro to make up for 1. poor speed 2. poor maneuverability (for such a big boat) 3. poor concealment 4. poor HE/shell trajectory 5. mediocre torpedoes/fewer tubes 6. shorter smoke.
Take away the hydro and you're left with a bad DD. If WG would sort at least one of the above mentioned issues, the dd could be somewhat of a nuisance. Right now, though, I care even less for their potential threat in battles than I do for playing the German dd line.
If WG doesn't fix these issues, they better hurry up and remove stealth firing across the board. Yeah, Russian boats can hardly (if at all) stealth fire, but they have the speed and/or maneuverability to not care + they have the range and shell velocity to actually hit things other than straight sailing BBs.
justin biggs And Yamato is the Same with much Better guns
Eating Flashbang not necessarily. kurfurst has 12 420mm guns, which means it has more total broadside weight. yamato may have the best guns with the best damage and penetration, but it doesn't have the armor scheme that kurfurst has. yamato has an all or nothing mixed with an incremental scheme where kurfurst has a turtleback scheme. yamato has a chance at far to mid range engagements and can kill kurfurst easier, but kurfurst's turtleback means when it gets up close as in 8km or less yamato will have a really hard time dealing with it. the citadel of kurfurst is very low and protected by the turtleback which means it is nearly impossible to citadel at close range, but normal hits do decent damage. keep the grosser kurfurst at range and you'll be fine, but once it gets closer than 10 km yamato will be torn apart by it's main guns and it's secondaries.
Sounds like to me they thought they made it OP and accidentally over nerf'd it.
sounds a bit like the akizuki without the concealment.
from what I can see they nefed the Stealth firing due to complaints from the whining errr lower IQ players ( I think thats a nice way to say it ) its a shame as they could have been on par with the others but just a bit different , I am stoping at tier 4 I think :)
I was looking forward to any german ships until this nerf happened.....
i feel like the hipper might be the last good german ship.
Is the Z-52 using the Prinz Eugens' guns sounds?
i typed in youtube on google and you came up ! LOL
5:50 half of the shells (against Yamato) are landing in shorter range than the rest, is that a bug ?
Excuse me but does somebody have the name of the minimap mods Flamu uses?Ty
i hear him say 3x4 build and such, but i've never seen the reference to what this means.
Anyone help me out here?
ruclips.net/video/RDVc8i9EI2Y/видео.html
hmm, I've watched that before.
I guess I don't get it. I watched the build part at the end.
I always assumed what you were saying was more straightforward.
Oh well. =) no worries.
AFT, +HP, Demolition expert
its pretty fucking obvious what 3x4 means from the video
Flamu says in the linked video: "And why I call it the 3x4 build is, you take three (3) four (4) point perks." (so 3 is amount of the perks and 4 is the cost of individual perk i.e. you don't take any 5 point skill).
how long would it take to get 0.6 update btw? in 1 or 2 month?
Yeh... im.. ehm i tryed to play/grind german destroyers.... i got to t4 it was pfft i got my pants pulled down and i... What can i do Just play and get over it? i dont have premium account, or dubloons, no good captain ..looks like im gonna play battleships.... as i got my first t7 german battleship and im moving same captain to next ship using flags to get past training.... im a beginner LOL
+Flamu, what if wargaming removed the concealment module and skill from all DDs and pick and choose the best spotting range and such on every single one? what would that do?
The Line got nerfed, because it's German
Wargaming likes to nerf German stuff
are any of the german DD's worth going down the line for?
I always find it funny when Flamu says a ship isn't worth playing, and yet still scores an amount of damage more than three times the server average and, while not on top of the team, is pretty damn close to it. Then, going on about how bad good ships are, like the Graf Spee, the best performing tier 6 cruiser by a wide margin, isn't worth playing. Flamu's opinion on ships has gotten to the point of worthless to me. Great player, sure, but his opinions on ships just...doesn't agree with their performance.
So what if you're detected when firing though? That's hurt the Khabarovsk since...never? Seriously. This whole "German DDs are trash" thing is getting way out of hand and incredibly old. It's hilarious, because with the exception of tier 5, the German destroyers are performing best of all the tech tree destroyers. But, please, do go on about how awful these ships are.
what minimap mod is that ? seems like the target lines are a great thing
I love how this guy never replies to any of the comments on his video's. You'll see practically every video where people ask what mod he runs and he never answers.
Time to unsubscribe from this guy.
It's an option as part of the Aslain mod.
aslain.com/index.php?/topic/2020-05161-aslains-wows-modpack-installer-wpicture-preview/
What was the best ship in the line? T7 and above...
German DD line is garbage. Yeah you can have good games and fun times, but the fact is they dont have that thing what would make them stand out and they have far too many cons compared to the few pros. Invisifire nerf was uncalled panic reaction from WG because they fear BB players would start the whining again
upto tier 4 the line is fun. tier 5 and up its kinda down hill.
z52
i.imgur.com/WxTl5K1.png
i.imgur.com/0q1u2pI.jpg
z46
i.imgur.com/pWJDXJN.png
i.imgur.com/hW1ADG5.png
I think they are good but different to play if you aren't used to them
WG have a prejudice against Germans and it shows in their games. Even in World of Tanks they seem to fuck German tanks on every level. Always been that way and it's no different in World of Warships. At the moment the Z52 is a mess, it's like the ship was setup by professionals and at the last minute the lead designer who doesn't know shit about the ship decided to make last minute changes while having a hissy fit about the Germans having a good ship. To give you a perspective of how fucking retarded the ship currently is, when you fire a cannon it's visible from 16km. From 13km I can see the tip of a 230m tall sky scraper building past the horizon, pretty much everything else below the tip is invisible because it's below the horizon. So WG is trying to tell me those little Destroyer cannons have a muzzle flash and smoke that is bigger than 300m high? (insert 'you dense mother fuckers' meme here)
What type of reticle do you use?
High tier CV guide please!!!
mkay, thx. so i play with my 2 china dd, sniffsniff^^
Hello Hello.
4 comments I see only 3 lol...so I will take Gearing instead
What is that icon saying First Last on the screen?
Its the smoke counter mod when u activate smoke it counts down the first and last smoke puff. it only doesnt work in replays that why its not counting down in the video.
It's a cruiser line with worse guns and better torpedoes. These are a shameful excuse for destroyers by WG.
so true... very sad.
What is the first last counter ?
mischa damjanovic
new gun sounds or mod?
Their complete concept base is crap. Look at the US ships, they are suposed to be masters of AA. But in fact the British T10 CA is the best AA ship in the game.
trashcan ev. will do dmg to it
Just use T10 Bussian Rias DD and GG
should research this or shimakazi
Fireraid233 I'd say Shimakaze, the German DDs are the oddball of the bunch from what I've seen, but it's up to you.
You speak too much Flamu, wouah..
bla bla bla l2p the german DDs
I see you dont care about being announced in chat.........
But, that may work at your advantage.
Since if you are a well known sealclubber (joking ofcourse), then the enemies might screw it up entirely.
So in that sense i think it aint too bad to be announced in chat.
PLUS. It wasnt him producing the videos, right?
You basically have put yourself in that position.
says a guy, almost 3 years after this video was posted
Wargaming in general is wanting to make the game less 'stealthy'..
Who cares that DD's were very stealthy in real life.. who cares that the vast majority of DD kills in reality came from DD's that were never seen.... Who cares about reality.. obviously not WG.
So much for wargamings claim about realism.
WG is pandering to the whining Cruiser and BB drivers (mainly BB) who don't know how to play their ships and penalizing those that do know how to play DD's correctly and accurately.
Average BB driver to wargaming: "Boo hoo.. a DD sank me from outside of detection range because *_I_* didn't turn... because *_I_* drove in a straight line for 10km like a moron.. because *_I_* don't know what I am doing... save me from my own laziness and stupidity WG.. pls pls save me..."
The coming RDF *_NERF_* is just another example of this.
9753flyer Those whiny gamers who just want the nerfs to fit their personal needs is disgusting.Absloutelty disgusting.
Well if it had to fit reality we wouldn't call it a game, we would call it a simulator. I don't get people talking about reality in this game were shells fly at like mach 3 and warships are bigger than cities you see on islands.
Jaeger It might not be class specific... but it *_does_* affect the DD class the most... DD's are supposed to be stealthy to the extent that IRL once DD's entered combat, most shut off all emission, radio as well, so they would not be detected.. and here WG is not taking that into account.
I'm not at all saying that ppl wanted it.. but at the same time, if people were not complaining about DD's, even though it's really their own fault they died, then this would not have been on the board... It's affecting their money stream.
Asshole??? Grow up child. you have now proven yourself to BE one of the shitty players I talk about, here and in the other thread you and I are on.. and probably 10 years old too.
@ Jager
Well especially BB captains ARE the ones, that are complaining most. Remember the discussion about angled armour on BBS? Where other BBs could not penetrate angled BBs? EVEN FOR THEMSELVES! They wanted to cature towards that complaint and almost screwed armour up for BBs, because of BB whining. Same goes for fires. How the fuck shall a not torp based ship, like the Des Moines, or even Moskva deal effective dmg to an angled BB, if not with fires? Same goes for CV nerfs across the board. I myself am a whiny bitch, when it comes to CVs, when im in a BB. You cannot do anything against them ALONE, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD BE LIKE. This game is supposed to be rock paper scissors, but WG is slowly going towards making BBs everything at once. The radio skill will be pretty much an essential on every ship in future, which is a DIRECT nerf for DDs and you know why? Because DDs are a direct counter to BBs, the biggest part of the community, which is getting their asses pamperd, because of whining and whom this skill is made for, so they can actually have a counter against a class, who they are not supposed to counter at all...
***** It's funny you mention subs...
Did you win the extra captains in the ARP challenges??? I did and was just looking at mine... 2 of them are listed as SUBMARINE captains for a ship called the ARP I-401...
I wonder.... WG said long ago they would not put subs in the game.. now I am not so sure..