I enjoy listening to someone who knows what he is talking about, and it is obvious (here, and in all your videos) that you know about these machines. Thank you for posting.
I appreciate the way you assess what this machine is and isn't, the actual costs involved to get the machine in the door, how the electronics work and your problem solving process. Looking forward to the video series on this machine. Thanks
I wanted to show the actual cost. The seller wanted to move it quickly but required some tricky rigging from their preferred rigger and they did not want to put any money into repairing it. That's why the purchase price was so low. But, you have to look at the total cost.
Awesome, I picked up one of the exact same machines a couple months ago. I'm very happy to find someone that knows what they are talking about and will be going through the same process I'm about to. Looking forward to your videos.
I’m an old school fitter and Turner and I used to use machines like this back in the 80’s In those days it was a privilege to use them. Everyone used manual machines. There was no fancy programming in those days. I think it was all G code but we didn’t call it that. We never opened the box on the side. I can remember Asian blokes squatting in the corner with a multi metre diagnosing boards for days at a time. I wonder what happened to those machines. They made amazing stuff. You depth of knowledge astounds me one again. Hope there is a play list for this project!
Nice find. I ran several different Tree mills when I worked in the tool room at Buick motor division in Flint MI. We had two 2 axis 200 Tree mills, 3 325’s, 2 425’s and a 330 mill. We cut a lot of iron on those machines over the years. They are actually fun to program conversationally. Occasionally, I still get to program on Dynapath controls we put on a couple of boring mills. Hope you get her up and running.
I like the Tree machines. I also have a VMC1260 with a Yasnac control. It's a beast at 19,000 lbs. I think it was the largest model they sold in the US.
I spent a lot of time with the 325. Also, I have a customer with 3 of the 325 machines that I work on. There are not many parts of one I have not been into.
I love your honest opinion and memory for how and why machines got treated Or how they got treated like you say about the forklift damage and that’s the reason why you pay for mechanics and engineers when you need something fixing
I got a fully functioning Cincinnati toolmaster for 500$ on eBay. I placed a bid with no expectations of winning. I was so happy! Cost 600$ to ship though,lol. Congratulation on your find!
$102 + $600 +$1,045. Is wifey still talking to you ? I know nothing about these machines, but the enthusiasm in your voice is infectious. I hope she thought so too.
Well, I bought the turning center featured in my lathe alignment videos for $250. Cost another $250 to get it loaded. So, that's my personal best. But, it had a lot of issues. I had to replace entire control computer.
I'm now watching all these back dated videos is there some video I missed explaining what he/Wes did prior to working on all the rusty crap cause he sure seems to know a lot of things about a lot of things. Well trained and a veteran at this stuff at seemingly a young age.
I have found flood coolant to be a real + and even without the chips get every were. looks like you could build off the lower pan and at least have semi enclosed. Sounds like your experienced so im sure you know the tools last longer the finish is consistently better you dont have the fine mist getting on everything (including your lungs) and your not constantly sweeping.
There are certain operations that benefit greatly from flood coolant. Drilling and tapping would be the most common. Any kind of machining with stainless and aluminum also really requires some kind of coolant. But, with coated tools, you can do a lot of work in most kinds of steel with no coolant.
Larger high end Deckels (FP5NC, FP3/4/5/6CC/T, FP5UT...) also have fully supported table. The table essentially moves on rails that are fixed to the z axis slide. Unfortunately, Deckel didn't use this mechanism on smaller, more affordable mills such as FP2/3/4NC. There, the guys at Deckel inverted that nice design and used a short fixed section of dovetail/boxway mix on the z-axis and mounted the table to a big slide that moves left and right. If the ways get worn over the years, the slide will sag down on each side, if the table is moved to the outer regions of the x axis travel range. That is about the only bad thing that I encountered on old Deckels.
Very interesting. I have not actually worked on a Deckel. There just are not many in my area. But, the flatness issue is pretty much universal. I know there were Deckel mills where the table is stationary and the whole column moves side to side. That would be even better yet.
Yes, those are the FP33, FP41, FP42, FP50... Table remains stationary while the rest of the machine does the moves, they are called fixed bed milling machine, afaik. Great for big parts, as they have nearly infinite table load capacity. Not so great for small parts since you have the inertia of half the machine when moving rapidly. Apparently these aren't free from faults either, if the ways on which the milling column rides has wear, the whole column sags to the front. But don't have any experience with these, only own an old Maho 700 (working), FP4NC/Dialog11 (nearly fixed) and a reall cheap FP2NC/Dialog4 that still needs a lot of love ;-)
looks like a real steal and compared to mechanical issues, electronics are rather cheap to fix. Btw.... one reason for smoking drives can also be leaking electrolytics, they very likely to go pop when you switch it straight on after a few years with no charge seen. If i get something which has been sitting around for a while i do a leak/short check first and then gently crank the capacitor voltage up to nominal (from a current limited external DC supply). Not so much a cost issue with a $100 drive but the ones i play with at my day job are usually in the $100k+ range, so precautions are saving big bucks.
I've worked on some pretty old CNC machines, and I have to say that I have seen surprisingly few capacitors actually leak and cause damage. I've seen plenty with high ESR or that have failed and opened completely. It seems like the CNC builders use really good quality capacitors, mostly Japanese in origin. I guess we will see on this one. I know the control power supplies are the cause of a lot of grief in these machines.
Great find, and fantastic story. The machine appears to not have been fed metal. Any chips as evidence into what it was "eating"? The only negative that I can come up with, is it going to be pushed in front of the shaper restoration? I for one surely hope not! Plus one for good ole' midwestern farm boys! I am in awe of your knowledge!
I suspect it was used to machine plastics. That can be good and bad. Plastic dust gets everywhere. It probably will move in front of the shaper. Sorry.
Most machines use wire wound ceramic resistors like the one you see, but physically smaller. If they need more capacity, they just use 2 or 4 in parallel. My Romi turning center basically used a heating element, so do some Haas machines. It works, but accidents do happen.
I can see how some folks can have trouble setting LinuxCNC up themselves. A few intelligent choices do need to be made for things to work right. Any mistakes there will lead to an unsatisfactory experience. Which you certainly seem to have had. Oh well.
@@1pcfred Would you prefer LinuxCNC over Centroid or Mach3? I got a BOSS CNC with AC Servos and Mach3, and I am considering either LinuxCNC or Centroid as a control upgrade. If I decide to upgrade to LinuxCNC, I will try the MESA PCIe card and daughter board.
It is always the shipping that gets ya!! Unless of course you know where to borrow a rollback from. :-) lol You mentioned acromatic2100. I hear it is a pretty good control. I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 850 to a 2100? Probably way in the future though. I need to figure out how to use it beyond selecting axis and turning the handwheel first. lol
Well I paid pretty much the same amount to move my Haas 150 miles as I did to move this machine 2000 miles. There's just a minimum cost to move heavy objects. It's a part of doing business. I don't know about the compatibility of the Acramatic controls. Most times it's better just to make what you have work.
Wes Johnson, the difference I've seen is that you keep chugging away, or make a stop-loss decision. I tend to get frustrated, and just switch projects. I admire the breadth of your knowledge, and your balanced approach to repairs. It's a different perspective than the other machinists I follow on RUclips. Thanks for posting these?
The universe looked after you so you should be trying to work out what you did positively previously to get this treat. I do probably sound very crazy but I'm going to explain a story to you very short so stick around : About 3 years ago I had an epiphany to stop working for myself and to stop doing things that involved just me I decided to start helping other people those who were in need and those who are about to start to bleed. They were my aim to help. In this time of making this decision I started to get a lot of items help and input from everyone around me I would constantly go dumpster diving and get the go-ahead from everyone to help myself. I literally literally literally literally found everything I needed with a few exceptions. It was a very hard thing to understand and comprehend but my total Pinyin on how money has corrupted to the world the universe would give me opportunity to avoid having to earn money to buy the things I needed instead did universe provide me with those I would find circular saws which at the time I need it I found LED lights which at the time I needed I found a big pane of toughened glass which I plan to make a porch cover so the universe we've ordered me with this there are many examples that I could list all day so people out there being kind give it a go don't do it for yourself do it for the other people think of them and how they will pay it forward to the next person
Phew, I don't feel so bad now - I paid $1,000 for my Bridgeport Series I CNC (BOSS converted to servos with Anilam controller), but that was $1k total, to my door. :-)
Yeah those BOSS machines pretty much have negative value now. If it's been retrofitted that's worth something. But, those original controls are not long for this world.
I have a JM 325 w/ Dynapath System 10. It can keep a few programs in memory but recently it lost all memory of programs. I replaced the small 3V battery but still won’t save the program. Any ideas what might be causing loss of program memory?
Oh, also where can I get spindle bearings for a JN 325? My spindle is very loud. Sounds like marbles rolling around. I’ve already removed, cleaned bearings, and regressed with appropriate spindle bearing grease. Thx!
Wes, I'm looking forward to the next video! I have an Okamoto 12-24dx to get from CA to WI. Can you detail how you found a carrier? Care to pass along their information? Thanks, Eric
Well you found something I know nothing about and after watch/listen came away with the adage of the second choice is "leaver b" as I am as smart as a rock. It seems that if I inherit one running, then find someone who can use it after the warnings of a nuclear melt down. Still tho a click for you and it was interesting
You're the guy I want standing next to me at machine shop auctions. Buckets of the most useful information, based on experience. Keep 'em coming, sir.
I don't know. You'd have a shop full of broken antiques like me.
I enjoy listening to someone who knows what he is talking about, and it is obvious (here, and in all your videos) that you know about these machines. Thank you for posting.
Don't get too used to it. I have a woodworking video coming up next...
@@WatchWesWork LOL
I appreciate the way you assess what this machine is and isn't, the actual costs involved to get the machine in the door, how the electronics work and your problem solving process.
Looking forward to the video series on this machine. Thanks
I wanted to show the actual cost. The seller wanted to move it quickly but required some tricky rigging from their preferred rigger and they did not want to put any money into repairing it. That's why the purchase price was so low. But, you have to look at the total cost.
Awesome, I picked up one of the exact same machines a couple months ago. I'm very happy to find someone that knows what they are talking about and will be going through the same process I'm about to. Looking forward to your videos.
Great. These are good machines. I'm sure we can get it running.
Cool shadow on the door, glad you don’t have to feed it.
I was thinking the same thing
I’m an old school fitter and Turner and I used to use machines like this back in the 80’s
In those days it was a privilege to use them. Everyone used manual machines. There was no fancy programming in those days. I think it was all G code but we didn’t call it that.
We never opened the box on the side. I can remember Asian blokes squatting in the corner with a multi metre diagnosing boards for days at a time.
I wonder what happened to those machines. They made amazing stuff.
You depth of knowledge astounds me one again. Hope there is a play list for this project!
Bask in the nostalgic glow. I like that. I seem to do that when I work on my old airplanes, but didn't realize it.
pro tip: watch series at kaldrostream. Been using it for watching all kinds of movies lately.
@Caspian Ayaan Definitely, I've been watching on kaldroStream for since november myself :D
Cool can't wait to see the old girl dancing again.
Merry Christmas hope you have a magical holiday.
I think she will, one way or another.
Awesome find! Can't wait to see you working on it!
Yes. Hopefully we don't have another forklift situation...
Nice find. I ran several different Tree mills when I worked in the tool room at Buick motor division in Flint MI. We had two 2 axis 200 Tree mills, 3 325’s, 2 425’s and a 330 mill. We cut a lot of iron on those machines over the years. They are actually fun to program conversationally. Occasionally, I still get to program on Dynapath controls we put on a couple of boring mills. Hope you get her up and running.
I like the Tree machines. I also have a VMC1260 with a Yasnac control. It's a beast at 19,000 lbs. I think it was the largest model they sold in the US.
The man knows his machine 👍🏼 Best $100 you ever spent ;)
I spent a lot of time with the 325. Also, I have a customer with 3 of the 325 machines that I work on. There are not many parts of one I have not been into.
I love your honest opinion and memory for how and why machines got treated Or how they got treated like you say about the forklift damage and that’s the reason why you pay for mechanics and engineers when you need something fixing
Great video - lot's of good information. I look forward to seeing the follow up videos.
great overview, really looking forward to the follow up fix video!
Me too!
U are a man of many talents 😆
I got a fully functioning Cincinnati toolmaster for 500$ on eBay. I placed a bid with no expectations of winning. I was so happy! Cost 600$ to ship though,lol. Congratulation on your find!
It's nice to get a deal once in a while.
$102 + $600 +$1,045. Is wifey still talking to you ?
I know nothing about these machines, but the enthusiasm in your voice is infectious. I hope she thought so too.
That is one cool looking machine. Love it.
Thanks!
Hi Wes haven't a clue what you were on about but enjoyed it all the same. Mick 👍🍻
Whew, for a minute there I thought you beat me! I paid $1k for my VMC40 and picked it up myself. Unloading cost $125 :-D
Well, I bought the turning center featured in my lathe alignment videos for $250. Cost another $250 to get it loaded. So, that's my personal best. But, it had a lot of issues. I had to replace entire control computer.
I'm now watching all these back dated videos is there some video I missed explaining what he/Wes did prior to working on all the rusty crap cause he sure seems to know a lot of things about a lot of things. Well trained and a veteran at this stuff at seemingly a young age.
Go look up "a few points from perfect" and sort by most popular. Wes does a podcast with dirt perfect that covers a lot.
Nice find and hiving the skills to get it running.
Well we'll see about that!
I have found flood coolant to be a real + and even without the chips get every were. looks like you could build off the lower pan and at least have semi enclosed. Sounds like your experienced so im sure you know the tools last longer the finish is consistently better you dont have the fine mist getting on everything (including your lungs) and your not constantly sweeping.
There are certain operations that benefit greatly from flood coolant. Drilling and tapping would be the most common. Any kind of machining with stainless and aluminum also really requires some kind of coolant. But, with coated tools, you can do a lot of work in most kinds of steel with no coolant.
Thumbs up 👍 knowing doing and understanding!
Very cool! I love older machines and you seem very knowledgeable. Thanks for the video!
Thanks. I learned a lot about machine repair from my old 325.
looking forward to following this project.
Me too.
I have the same machine , only it has Dynapath 10 . Great little machine .
I think they are the perfect first CNC machine. Beefy enough to do some real work, but simple enough that most guys can fix them themselves.
Larger high end Deckels (FP5NC, FP3/4/5/6CC/T, FP5UT...) also have fully supported table. The table essentially moves on rails that are fixed to the z axis slide.
Unfortunately, Deckel didn't use this mechanism on smaller, more affordable mills such as FP2/3/4NC. There, the guys at Deckel inverted that nice design and used a short fixed section of dovetail/boxway mix on the z-axis and mounted the table to a big slide that moves left and right.
If the ways get worn over the years, the slide will sag down on each side, if the table is moved to the outer regions of the x axis travel range. That is about the only bad thing that I encountered on old Deckels.
Very interesting. I have not actually worked on a Deckel. There just are not many in my area. But, the flatness issue is pretty much universal. I know there were Deckel mills where the table is stationary and the whole column moves side to side. That would be even better yet.
Yes, those are the FP33, FP41, FP42, FP50... Table remains stationary while the rest of the machine does the moves, they are called fixed bed milling machine, afaik.
Great for big parts, as they have nearly infinite table load capacity. Not so great for small parts since you have the inertia of half the machine when moving rapidly.
Apparently these aren't free from faults either, if the ways on which the milling column rides has wear, the whole column sags to the front. But don't have any experience with these, only own an old Maho 700 (working), FP4NC/Dialog11 (nearly fixed) and a reall cheap FP2NC/Dialog4 that still needs a lot of love ;-)
Pull the control power supply and replace all of the electrolytic caps. Be sure to use low esr caps for all of the smaller ones.
Yes, I've rebuilt a few of these Dynapath power supplies now. The controls are very fussy about voltage ripples.
looks like a real steal and compared to mechanical issues, electronics are rather cheap to fix. Btw.... one reason for smoking drives can also be leaking electrolytics, they very likely to go pop when you switch it straight on after a few years with no charge seen. If i get something which has been sitting around for a while i do a leak/short check first and then gently crank the capacitor voltage up to nominal (from a current limited external DC supply). Not so much a cost issue with a $100 drive but the ones i play with at my day job are usually in the $100k+ range, so precautions are saving big bucks.
I've worked on some pretty old CNC machines, and I have to say that I have seen surprisingly few capacitors actually leak and cause damage. I've seen plenty with high ESR or that have failed and opened completely. It seems like the CNC builders use really good quality capacitors, mostly Japanese in origin. I guess we will see on this one. I know the control power supplies are the cause of a lot of grief in these machines.
What a stroll down 1970s- 1980s tech. lane. Glad you know that you are one of the few left that do. You said you are over 25 years old?
I'm 34. I'm actually older than that machine, though the design is straight out of 1975.
Great overview, be interesting to see what happens:)
I agree. I already ordered a some parts for it...
Great find, and fantastic story. The machine appears to not have been fed metal. Any chips as evidence into what it was "eating"? The only negative that I can come up with, is it going to be pushed in front of the shaper restoration? I for one surely hope not! Plus one for good ole' midwestern farm boys! I am in awe of your knowledge!
I suspect it was used to machine plastics. That can be good and bad. Plastic dust gets everywhere. It probably will move in front of the shaper. Sorry.
Sounds very cool. Matt C
Great video! Though we have a little different view on what is perfect and spotless ;)
Well, compared to the junk I normally work on, it's perfect...
That made me laugh :) When I think of the forklift you bought I will have to agree that the mill is mint.
You mentioned the brake resistor is comically large. Well Fadal used a heating element from an oven, best I can tell!
Most machines use wire wound ceramic resistors like the one you see, but physically smaller. If they need more capacity, they just use 2 or 4 in parallel. My Romi turning center basically used a heating element, so do some Haas machines. It works, but accidents do happen.
what an awesome deal
I hope it turns out to be a good deal. See the forklift saga for a counterexample.
idiots couldve got more than 10x that from scrap value.
Looks like a great LinuxCNC retrofit candidate. Gut it!
No. The Dynapath is a real industrial control. It's light years ahead of EMC2 or whatever they are calling it now.
LinuxCNC is a real industrial motion controller too. You are simply unaware of it. goo.gl/PtLdsk
No. Been there. Done that. Have the T-shirt somewhere. Never again.
I can see how some folks can have trouble setting LinuxCNC up themselves. A few intelligent choices do need to be made for things to work right. Any mistakes there will lead to an unsatisfactory experience. Which you certainly seem to have had. Oh well.
@@1pcfred Would you prefer LinuxCNC over Centroid or Mach3? I got a BOSS CNC with AC Servos and Mach3, and I am considering either LinuxCNC or Centroid as a control upgrade. If I decide to upgrade to LinuxCNC, I will try the MESA PCIe card and daughter board.
It is always the shipping that gets ya!! Unless of course you know where to borrow a rollback from. :-) lol You mentioned acromatic2100. I hear it is a pretty good control. I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 850 to a 2100? Probably way in the future though. I need to figure out how to use it beyond selecting axis and turning the handwheel first. lol
Well I paid pretty much the same amount to move my Haas 150 miles as I did to move this machine 2000 miles. There's just a minimum cost to move heavy objects. It's a part of doing business. I don't know about the compatibility of the Acramatic controls. Most times it's better just to make what you have work.
Can't wait for the next videos!
Well, it will likely proceed at my usual pace. Sometime between now and the next ice age.
Wes Johnson, the difference I've seen is that you keep chugging away, or make a stop-loss decision. I tend to get frustrated, and just switch projects. I admire the breadth of your knowledge, and your balanced approach to repairs. It's a different perspective than the other machinists I follow on RUclips. Thanks for posting these?
The universe looked after you so you should be trying to work out what you did positively previously to get this treat.
I do probably sound very crazy but I'm going to explain a story to you very short so stick around :
About 3 years ago I had an epiphany to stop working for myself and to stop doing things that involved just me I decided to start helping other people those who were in need and those who are about to start to bleed. They were my aim to help.
In this time of making this decision I started to get a lot of items help and input from everyone around me I would constantly go dumpster diving and get the go-ahead from everyone to help myself.
I literally literally literally literally found everything I needed with a few exceptions.
It was a very hard thing to understand and comprehend but my total Pinyin on how money has corrupted to the world the universe would give me opportunity to avoid having to earn money to buy the things I needed instead did universe provide me with those I would find circular saws which at the time I need it I found LED lights which at the time I needed I found a big pane of toughened glass which I plan to make a porch cover so the universe we've ordered me with this there are many examples that I could list all day so people out there being kind give it a go don't do it for yourself do it for the other people think of them and how they will pay it forward to the next person
Always wonder why these aren't using PC/104.
Phew, I don't feel so bad now - I paid $1,000 for my Bridgeport Series I CNC (BOSS converted to servos with Anilam controller), but that was $1k total, to my door. :-)
Yeah those BOSS machines pretty much have negative value now. If it's been retrofitted that's worth something. But, those original controls are not long for this world.
Great winter project, and hell of a deal. It'll make for a cool series. Are you from Wisconsin?
I'm from Northern IL. I went to college in Wisconsin.
Cool. I live in Chicago.
@@WatchWesWork Badgers!
100$ surely less than scrap value.. basically a donation :D
what is this a Hitchcock film! check out the silhouette profile on the garage door!!
That's the silhouette of a box full of electrical wire. Crappy lighting in my shop. It's really crappy by the overhead door.
to awesome.
F..king lucky boy!
Even a blind pig stumbles over a truffle once in a while.
@@WatchWesWork Don't they sniff them out anyway?
This does not look like the weight is that much. But what do i know about cnc machines.
When you buy a machine on ebay, what do you have to go through to get it shipped? It's not exactly something FedEx will pick up and deliver.
I hired a local rigger.
I have a JM 325 w/ Dynapath System 10. It can keep a few programs in memory but recently it lost all memory of programs. I replaced the small 3V battery but still won’t save the program. Any ideas what might be causing loss of program memory?
Oh, also where can I get spindle bearings for a JN 325? My spindle is very loud. Sounds like marbles rolling around. I’ve already removed, cleaned bearings, and regressed with appropriate spindle bearing grease. Thx!
yeah, what he said.
Mill it work????
screw the MPG retrofit to geckodrivers.
They didn't get powered drive because they were probably making flat parts like molds.
Those MSI drives are light years ahead of anything Gecko makes.
So, it was a xmas tree, then..!
How much distance did the machine travel such that it cost you 1,045.00 for transportation?
Thanks.
2000 miles. I think that's about 3500km.
Wes, I'm looking forward to the next video!
I have an Okamoto 12-24dx to get from CA to WI. Can you detail how you found a carrier? Care to pass along their information? Thanks, Eric
I used a small outfit called IMOK Freight to broker the deal. They were recommended on the practical machinist forum. They did a great job.
WHAT IS A POWER KEEE?
derp a Power Knee would raise or lower the table under computer control, instead of using the manual crank on the front.
It's just a motor and switch like a power feed on a Bridgeport, but it raises the knee.
Good for you!
Thanks! Hopefully it doens't turn out to be a 6000lb lemon.
Wes Johnson you'll do fine! Just keep at it!
Well you found something I know nothing about and after watch/listen came away with the adage of the second choice is "leaver b" as I am as smart as a rock. It seems that if I inherit one running, then find someone who can use it after the warnings of a nuclear melt down. Still tho a click for you and it was interesting
She is heavier then she looks.
Yes. It's a beast. I know it weighs about the same as a Haas VF-0
LGBT modules?
24 minutes of talk. Yet I never hear you tell us novice people what the thing is good for. Wow, what a waste.
LOL. What were you expecting?
@@WatchWesWork How about an answer. What is it??? What does it do ???? What is it good for??/ A heavy paperweight ???