Fictional characters don't matter? - Only to real people that lack any skill to write fictional characters, but want to make money of them. If that kind of thinking is widely spread among creatives, it is no surprise that the writing has gone downhill.
As a story teller your #1 goal is for your audience to feel something about your characters, if you're making tge argument that fictional characters don't matter you've lost the plot, literally
I hate it when people say "it's a fictional character, no big deal" argument as a way to justify bastardizing legacy characters that we've grown to love. Like what they did to Luke Skywalker in TLJ, Harry Potter in Cursed Child, etc etc.
fictional characters/individuals have been interpreted and re-interpreted for as long as stories have been told and when different cultures come into contact with those stories.
If it's no big deal, they wouldn't be going after them as hard as they have been. Those making these shows and movies know how important they are, but are hiding behind this phrase so the normies won't think twice about it.
Fear not. This too will pass. 70 years later people still watch and rave about the Maltese Falcon while hundreds of other movies are forgotten. 70 years from now the original trilogy will still be watched and enjoyed while the rest of "Star Wars" will be a footnote at best.
@@gloriathomas3245You're referring to the way information traveled in a time when you couldn't go on the internet and find the source material. This doesn't really apply in the information age.
It's a conversation stopper, not a meaningful attempt to engage. It is designed to dismiss & minimalist a perspective they don't understand - in other words, a failure of empathy.
If it matters to you the way real people matter to you then you probably are too attached to fictional characters and it makes sense to care about you caring too much because you are real. That having been established, it’s not the case that fictional characters don’t matter at all.
@@matityaloran9157I disagree, if you went on Facebook and made "friends" with someone, then find out that person was fake or a stolen identity, the difference between the people effected by that identity theft and those effected by a fictional character is 1... Now sure the real life person likely got harmed more but you likely both got robbed.
I say the same thing to people who change characters then claim I shouldn't care about the change. well then why was it changed in the first place? It's gaslighting and an appeal to triviality to mask that they do care and simply like the change.
I honestly don't understand how people can brush off the assassinations of beloved characters by the higher-ups who never cared about the franchises they're destroying, by asking the fans why they care so much and to stop making "such a big deal" out of it, when they would be feeling the same way if it was done to their favorite characters--or more personally, if it was characters that they created themselves that were being destroyed. Unless you, for some reason, don't give a crap about your own product that you've slaved away for years and decades... which I also don't understand. I've been writing for years, been drawing my characters for years, and I have many characters I've created over the years that I've come to love as heroes and as villains. I've had my main character since 2008, my preteen years, and as such he is my most personal out of the rest of them and I've been creating and developing his story since December 2013. So when I hear fans' reactions to characters being unnecessarily changed for nothing but the higher-up's own ulterior political goals, when I hear fans getting understandably angry at characters' personalities being defiled by the studio's own sense of entitlement and political motives, and/or replaced by inferior gender-swapped and/or race-swapped Mary-Sue clones without all the relatability and the flaws that made the characters they're replacing feel real, all while the studios take a huge dump all over the original franchises and lie about them as if they were always problematic from the start (looking at you, Amazon and the Rings of Prime, and looking at you, Disney and your trash-heap "live-action" remakes), and finally tell their own audience to "take it or shut the eff up", "it's just a movie", "they're just characters! they're not real", "it wasn't made for you", or "it's for a new generation now", I get pissed. Because I think to myself how much effort went into making those franchises and those movies and comics, the amount of years the creators slaved away, how much blood, sweat, and tears went into earning the popularity they got. And if those were my characters being taken from me and desecrated to appeal to some made-up political "modern audience" and to appeal to the crapfest that is the politics of today, I would be very pissed off and would not accept it. So many people grew up with Disney, with Star Wars, with Star Trek, with Lord of the Rings, and so many people got inspired to create their own IPs because of them. Fictional characters help other people look outside the box and relate to others that don't look like them, think differently, or live different lives from them. So don't let people tell you to stop critiquing these studios and their destruction of the original franchises, just because the characters aren't real. Keep up the good work, and great video!
The "new generation" thing makes me angry, and I always answer that even new generations deserve GOOD WRITING and well made characters. (By the way: drawing and writing weird author here, me too! 🙂)
@@chandlerburse if the new generation is crappy, because they have been raised on vapid social media bullshit, fake political ideals, and a shit ton of drugs, doesn't that just prove their point? just because a shit person deserved better doesn't mean they're not a shit person, in fact, the mistreatment or denial of critical things plays a large role in them being... shit. where past generations had epics, and stories, deep concepts, and discussions of trauma, historic universal feelings like abandonment, hopelessness, and love... the new generation has one dimensional mary sues, and... tik-tok. They will learn nothing, and feel nothing.
The people who do this to characters and stories that they don't care about, are just like school bullies who steal the toys from kids on the playground. They start mashing two guys' faces together, mockingly make them say and do things that the characters would never say or do, usually with mocking voices as well. I'd like to think it's not malicious, like this, but they've done this far too many times. It's not "fan fiction", like these people have always loved the characters and stories that they're now continuing... what they do to the characters is evil. It's "hate fiction", and I believe they know what they're doing.
Fictional characters are not real, but when you follow a franchise for long enough, you will grow emotional attachments to them as if they were real, so it doesn’t matter when a franchise destroys them
The people who make fun of others for getting attached to fictional characters are often the same people who scream and throw things if a football player on tv doesn’t throw the football very well.
They're not. They're the same kind of people who will make fun of the people who dare to get attached enough to their favorite NFL team to cheer them on or wear their favorite players' jerseys to games. It's about having an angle to feel superior to someone else rather than empathizing.
True. I breaks my heart to see a character I love, not only be written badly, but being so misunderstood that future readers and writers alike think that the worst written version of that character is how they should always be portrayed.
In my first year of Uni I had an Anthropology course. We studied myths, early civilisations in relation to fairy tales and myths etc. One thing that stuck with me was that, according to research, early orally told fairy tales would elicit the same reactions we see today in the audience if they weren't told right. Even worse, because then the story teller could face physical repercussions even. The hero's journey was supposed to go a certain way, every one being very familiar with the trope and the characters themselves weren't that well contoured- just the bare bones: the hero who is young and brave, the heroine who is the most beautiful there is etc. Just a simple phrase to kinda give the audience a sense of the archetype they embodied. The story itself was and remains a ritual. That blew my mind. I even wanted to do my PhD on that topic but ultimately let that dream go. My point is, it seems people who are in charge of telling stories should be educated in that area to really understand how the subconscious works. My guess is that they are trying to influence that with modern ideas but, in a sense, they miss that the bones of a story and characters should remain the same. I recently watched George Lucas talking about myths and how he wanted to offer that to a new generation and I also just found out he is an Anthropology major himself. That makes so much sense. He understands the human need for myths, for heroes and catharsis. Edit: I think Jung explains this best when talking about the collective subconscious. I strongly encourage anyone to check out his ideas.
I'm not really in any fandoms, but I'm obsessed with my own characters and writing (judge me if you want idc), and one thing that I saw once that still kinda pisses me off to think about was someone saying something like, "Stop saying your character did this or your character did that and surprised you. They're not real, and you're not quirky for acting like they are." It was just this same attitude but repackaged as "writing advice" and it's never made sense to me. Let people feel things. Let them be excited about characters or proud of their work. The type of people that brush this off are clearly not artists and belong in a boardroom looking at graphs and pie charts.
@@ChildOfTheFlowerEverything with Go Set a Watchman is kind of funny and kind of sad. From “whoa! An unreleased sequel to Kill an Mockingbird” to “oh. So that’s why it was never released.”
the incredible hulk is the character i am most attached too, seeing him being ruined from avengers 2012 all the way to the present hurt alot, he is not some butt of the joke, he is a complex serious character that goes through so much, he saw his mom die, he had a abusive father, he has many personality's as the hulk, and with all that, he still goes out of his way to help people (as bruce or hulk). seeing him now as the "oh ha ha, look he hit thor in a funny way." or seeing him wimp out with thanos. it's just character assassination.
I find it very serendipitous that you posted this video on the anniversary of the "death" of one of my favorite series (Guillermo del Toro's Tales of Arcadia series on Netflix--the series finale premiered on July 21st, 2021 and was one of the biggest, most unexpected "screw you"s to the audience I've ever seen). Sometimes I feel a little embarrassed that a show suddenly turning horrible right at the very end made me mourn as much as it has--especially since it had its' fair share of "goofy kids' cartoon (derogatory)" moments. But it helped a lot hearing you explain some of the psychology behind my attachment to those characters.
This was an awesome video! I hate when people do that. The whole point is to be invested in these fictional characters. It's a passion and should never be shamed for. I get it all the time about the assassination Harley's character. You said it perfectly: " *And sometimes it's the people who get most upset with how characters are being used are the people who know them the best. That's why they notice the details of when they change. And to be upset about that is just them being passionate, not wanting to lose something that's good* " 💯👏
Imagine your dog died, or your house burned down. All your sentimental belongings are destroyed... And someone walks up to you and says "What's the big deal? Just move on."
People use that “It’s just make believe!” bs when they have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, but they still want to dismiss someone else’s critique. They’re either liars, trolls, or sociopaths. Caring about something that is incapable of returning that affection is one of the highest forms of empathy.
Eustass Kid is a mass murder that crucifies people, and I feel more empathy towards him than any current animated or live action remake film from Disney.
X: "This character / series / worldbulding was destroyed. Y: "No I disagree / it's not that bad." X: "I can elaborate on the how and why: [longness here]" Y: "Ugh, why do you care??" The factor of wanting to win with an opinion no matter what is all too present. Oftentimes "caring about fiction too much" isn't criticized reasonably, but as an easy means to point out the flaws on others and get points in a discussion. It's petty, some criticism make people feel bad and they react badly about it by wanting those critics to lose in society by whatever means. In a certain postcast I watch, all the people who act like this are either kinda dumb & with low standards in their understanding of media, or the same on top of hypocrites, as they care too much about fiction themselves with enough time in between their accusations.
my favourite character is The Joker and to see him getting trained by some bloke named Captio??? in the comics recently.... man you gotta be kidding me 😂😂😂
The characters may not be real, but our emotions are. When Maleficent has her wings cut off by someone she trusted and reacts the way she does is a brutal gut punch every time I see it.
If I was a college professor, I would give you an A+. You really touched the topic in such a deep and beautiful way. Your video essay capitalizes on how we as individuals feel, or hold on to such wonderfully made fictional characters.❤
Sidenote: There is quite the growing hatred and resentment building for Batman. Not from the general audiences, but from a subset of fans (and a lot of the creators). There is a lot of talk about him being a fascist and a corrupt billionaire, and so on and so forth. I see more and more efforts to tear him down. Its sad.
I’m am genuinely sick and tired of people online calling superheroes “defenders of the status quo.” Like, no. They’re literally taking matters into their own hands to stop criminals and supervillains. If every story was “ro ro fight the power” shit would get boring and repetitive. Fiction doesn’t have to stick to one mold.
What troubles me most is that this current generation is gleefully tearing down everything that came before, but they don't have anything to offer in exchange. Once they have succeeded in tearing down everything anyone loves, what then?
It's a sign of good writing, I have just started reading Gunslinger girl, and a lot of the cast are broken in some way or another that it's possible to emphasize with. From Henrietta to Pinoiocco, you are feeling something for someone from mild disgust to pity to sharing their joy. That's good writing, for me.
The same people who dismiss fictional characters are the same kind of people who will then go on to sink a couple thousand dollars into their FANTASY football league. If you’re looking for more scholarly looking at the importance of imaginary characters, see CS Lewis’ essays in defense of the Fairy Tale like “Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said” or Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy-Stories”. Because back after the First World War there was a massive shift away from fantasy. They said kids needed _real_ stories. (If you look at a list of Newberry books from the 40s, you’ll see that a LOT of them were biographies.)
I know the difference between fiction and reality & I also understand that fictional characters are precious (Especially the characters we grew up with) too. I also know that I should not hurt people who played characters I don't like. I respect those who like characters I don't like & I respect and understand you too, JesterBell.
All I could think about while you were talking was Arthur Morgan. I’ve been sad characters have died before but Arthur hit like I lost a family member. I get sad when I think about him still, I mean it’s really like you lost someone. It’s so odd.
Because these characters are a part of our childhoods, and taught us lessons about life similar to our parents. Yes their "not real" but the basis of their ideologies, and world views are real at least to me.
We need heroes, we need to admire and be inspired by ideal characters that may not exist in real life but can make us feel better and perhaps even inspire us to be better than what we are
7:50,. There's a lot of great moments throughout the trilogy, but this particularly scene has always stuck with me and solidifies Sam as one of the best supporting characters in any piece of fiction! At least in my opinion, anyways. Astin's delivery of this line is so powerful, accompanied with the "Into the West" tempo blasted to a soaring climax when Sam hauls Frodo over his shoulders and proceeds to carry him to Mt. Doom. Absolute chills! I'm glad I'm not the only one to have been touched by this scene!
Sometimes people do something that is completely out of character for them. As much as people are logical and consistent people can be emotional or irrational and do something unpredictable. It can be unpleasant to experience someone doing something out of character, but it is still realistic for that to happen.
I feel this way about Jinx from Teen Titans, I was invested in the character and her potential relationship with Cyborg. Then Season 5 happened and i felt kinda betrayed by how she was written. It felt mean spirited towards the Hive Five too.
I would've preferred Jinx marrying and having a family with Cyborg; Kid Flash marrying and having a family with Artemis, and Jason Todd marrying and having a family with Slade Wilson's daughter.
Fictional characters are meant to be a reflection of ourselves and our cherished societal values. Traditional fictional heroes around the world, regardless of background, have commonly sought to embody heroism, true love, bravery, discipline, strength, and honesty. Taking that and destroying it and/or bastardizing it is a form or cultural and societal breakdown… vandalism at the representation of our values. Only a fool or an enemy would demolish such a thing.
I got a long list of characters I can relate to. Me and my sister relate to Peter Parker (Spider-Man) because he goes through alot and takes alot of responsibilities.
many moons ago,there was a scene in The English Patient film that really moved me to tears... traveling through the desert after a plane crash,the character of the Count carried his injured beloved for miles to the safety of a cave and afterwards went for aid/help,only to return to find out she had passed... 😢
Same. I had this feeling of "wow... so this is how the main saga will end, huh?" I knew it was doomed and the next movie wasn't going to fix things. Both the new characters and the old characters had been turned into these super unlikable weird versions of themselves and the story just felt so mean-spirited. This was Disney's only chance to wrap up the story with the og actors and pass the torch to the next generation, and they botched it in the worst way possible. The fact that Carrie died during the trilogy's production and freaking Mary Poppins Leia was one of her last real moments on screen is painful
I think there's a difference between the more static (and once honored) lore of SW and LOTR, and the much more fluid universes like Marvel and DC where experimentation is a huge part of the history.
I've been recommding your channel to Star Wars Theory, Critical Drinker...you have great assessments. Intelligent, introspective and articulated nicely. Love your videos and agree with you.
If fictional characters didn't emotionally connect to the reader, I wouldn't want to be a writer. If it's nothing but simple "entertainment" then whatever, let people play Candy Crush. But we know it's more than that.
I hate this argument that we shouldn't take a deal because theyre not real. Dude why shouldn't I cry if my favourite character of all time wich is Oh Yoon hee is suffering her entire life and is having a brutal and emotional death?! We cry because we matter, ae matter because we like thess character and we like these characters because they are good written!
This was great to get some insight on things. Say, I know with Star Wars I didn't quite know how to articulate how it had changed and not felt like the old Star Wars. After watching so many people describe it I know feel I can better describe it myself.
I think you said it right at the beginning: "watching TLOTR is a spiritual Journey" and that's it. They are no mere entertainment. The characters feel real. And believable
Yes. The catharsis. The opportunity to process and go through things in a safe way. Myths, stories, histories, narrative are so important for us to develop and understand.
I grew up with Halo and the Master chief. Even if he is fictional, he taught me to "finish the fight". 3 Words that give me strength even in hard times. He is a symbol for me, a symbol of strength and integrity. A man that (not in his childhood) willingly protects, even if it means to sacrifice himself. Things that i deeply praise and which are part of my value system. Now seeing this Man getting devolved into a pre-pubercent sex driven emotionally unstable failed project by Paramount was a personal attack. They went for greed and attacked which i hold sacred. Fuck big companies attacking and using art for their financial or ideological benefit.
Characters are made up of two parts their personality and core urge for example the thing that makes peter and (spider verse miles ) different is not their personalitys thats surface level. Peter started out as somebody that didn't care about responsibility just himself because he was powerless against the bullies . Miles was afraid of responsibility because he thought it would take his individuality away thats why he gravitated towards uncle aron at the start but changed his tune when he saw what happened to uncle aron and gained permission to be himself from his dad in the scene were he was webbed to the wheel chair scene.
Great video, thanks for sharing... Another aspect to feeling attachments and feelings towards fictional characters and stories, is association... Associating a memory, event, experience, and/or emotion with something you experienced in a movie/show/play/book/etc... Which can evoke memories and feelings associated to both, when one or the other presents itself... I hope that makes sense... An example might be, going to the movies as a kid with your mother or father, that allows you to revisit that bonding experience in your mind, each time you watch that same movie or see those characters, that you can emotionally attach to that experience... Another example might be experiencing a high emotion, due to how impactful a story and/or character/s was at a specific moment in your life... Allowing you to connect on some level to those experiences... However it occurs, it does occur... Plus each person can attach to different experiences, real and/or fictional, in varying levels... It's what can differ between a Fan and a Visitor... A fan typically has an emotional attachment/s to stories and/or characters from a prior experience/s... A visitor can enjoy the same experience/s, without attaching emotionally to much if anything... Neither result is invalid, and will vary from person to person based on what they like and/or do not like... Everyone is different... I fully understand and agree with most of what JesterBell talks about in this video... It's both simple and complex at the same time... As a fan of something, when someone comes along and tries to ruin a prior experience, depending on a fan's tolerance levels, they can feel hurt, frustrated, and/or angry as though that experience they love is being attacked... This can occur when a sequel or prequel retcons prior movies/shows, forces changes without regard to what came before, nonchalantly disregards the larger fandom of a given product, and so on... So, I totally understand where JesterBell is coming from in this video... People are complex, in a world that likes to treat people like they are simple...
Recently, one of my favorite characters, who is pretty much unpopular, was drastically changed to the point that I think that this destroyed them. But why should people care? They were just an unpopular character nobody gave a fuck anyway, so no one will notice the change, which makes it much more worse.
There is one very specific character that this video makes me think of. I won't say who it is as I have learned it's better not to when talking about how strongly I felt about him (as he is fairly polarizing), but he was my first introduction to a character assassination so bad that I completely lost interest in the larger story and stopped following it. This was years ago, and while I eventually was able to enjoy the early portion of the story, to this day thinking about the story as a whole puts such a bad taste in my mouth that if I am talking about it to someone else, I end up ranting about the wasted potential. All because this one character that I was super invested in was completely ruined by terrible writing. So yeah. I feel all the sentiments expressed in this video in my bones.
JesterBell, this was wonderful! Thank you for sharing your beautiful heart! I don't think this was easy at all! You rock! JesterBell...are we similar in that can you talk a mile-a-minute where you throw everything and the kitchen sink after just hearing a bit of information, and your mind just goes all over the place in excitement? It's a reason 90s comic Deadpool was the fictional character I related to the most...I regularly think about the scene in the Hulk vs Wolverine animated movie (the only adaptation I liked...besides X-Men Origins Wolverine because I liked the sword deflecting scene..and maybe Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3) Hulk's "Talking man, hurt Hulk, Hulk rip off talking man's head!" when I'm with my friends. haha I want to comment on everything but already I keep going over the comment limit and I've backspaced so much here over and over...I don't currently understand certain feeling stuff here (it will probably come when I'm out at night or working out! I don't if you remember after your "depiction isn't promotion" vid I was smoothly subtly wrestling with that vid bringing it up to you later on lol because I kinda understood it but I recognized a blindspot in myself especially you were talking emotions where I understood it to my wackly logical framework but....anyways!), and I mean that sincerely which I realized that's a blindspot for me, which men are typically more detached from feelings than women (which might be helpful to think about if any guys criticize you....apparently, we can't even see color as well as women, along with us not having women's empathetic superpower) , and it's a reason years ago, I thought about it when doing chin ups (working out helps with circulation to think) to not call people hypocrites but use the word "inconsistent" because it's more gentle (and I recognize my failings...so I don't mind if you do!) which might make them re-think things where...like with me, I talk in novels about everything and don't even realize how I'm coming across where I don't even think I'm having any emotion/or passion but others can clearly see it, and our passions are what motivate us to use our intellect...facts might not care about feelings, but it takes feelings to care about the facts....I backspaced so much.. so many things I related to here, starting with Avatar, I turned off that series getting turned turned off by Aang thinking it was too emotional but then went back to push through because the series was so well regarded, and Toph and Zuko were the characters that got me hooked and then I remember being invested in everybody. I just backspaced a bunch.... I remember Avatar the Last Airbender being in the top 10 greatest tv shows I've ever seen, and I don't just throw that out there....I have to keep backspacing...however, while I don't consider it one of the greatest, trying to be impartial, I actually got the 2003 Teen Titans DVDs, as well as the Batman TAS complete series on DVD (never got any Marvel series), and the first superhero movie I ever purchased was Batman Mask of the Phantasm. I recorded myself doing the "I didn't count on being happy" scene over and over hoping to get it right by my standard knowing it by heart. It was my favorite childhood movie scene besides The Return of the Jedi's Luke "Father please" Vader redemption scene, and I didn't get that movie until last month thanks to your motivation to re-think Star Wars movies since while I liked scenes out of context, I didn't care much for Star Wars movies besides Revenge of the Sith, which is one of my all time favorite movies and when watching Avatar, at the time, I thought of Zuko being a better written version of Anakin but ....anyways, thanks to you, the George Lucas movies were the first movies I purchased in 7 years (besides earlier this year getting The Nightmare Before Christmas earlier this year which...that's another novel) ! However, as an adult, Sam carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom is my favorite movie scene where I can't even think of a second place. I don't have anything now, but had it as my wallpaper on one of my previous phones when struggling with depression. I nominated the Lord of the Rings' Samwise Gamgee for greatest fictional character being a character who wasn't the greatest looking, strongest, most intelligent, but he had a good heart and ordered all his passions/heart well, which as a result, brightened his intellect to use his free will with self-sacrificial heroic love. And I think art, at best, is a communication of the heart to deliver a metaphorical perception of reality/history/experience to uplift people to the true, the good, and the beautiful, where it gets into our emotions/passions, which can help motivate us to strive to and give us more clarity to use our gift of intellect to grasp at the good and use our gift of free will, our capability to direct ourselves to the true good, and that's why it makes sense to me why so many fans don't separate the art from the artist, sacrificing so much to meet those involved with the creative process hoping the creators will hold in their hearts elements of what was so meaningful to them. ...and, because of my Batman fandom, I purchased the Justice League Unlimited DVD at a bookstore with the Justice League Unlimited Ace swingset scene with the DCAU Batman holding her hand before she passed away, and I thought of it as a metaphorical illustration of what fiction can mean to people, giving pep in their step. I didn't see that scene as a kid like Batman Mask of the Phantasm, but that's how I thought of fiction since childhood. I related to what you said about characters being like friends, especially with Spider-man and X-Men comics as a kid, and I remember when you brought up a song from a movie I'd play and sing from on the piano as a little kid, Hunchback of Notre Dame; you brought up the song "God Help the Outcasts" and I was wondering if that had some kind of connection with your interest in Batman, Spider-man, and the X-Men where you have metaphorical interest similar to me in...I gotta go! I don't know if you'd be interested but when I pray to Jesus, I ask for the intercession of Saint Joseph Cupertino. He was known for supernaturally levitating during prayer, was socially awkward and struggled with learning disability, was constantly shamed, belittled, and misunderstood. In the eyes of the world, he appeared almost completely useless, but that's not how God saw him, and, imo, he gives hope that none of us our disqualified from sainthood because of our weaknesses. Our value comes from God, not from the world. Hope you enjoy these! 1 Corinthians 26-31 Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God. It is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Whoever boasts, should boast in the Lord.” Sirach 35:16-20 He shows no partiality to the weak but hears the grievance of the oppressed. He does not forsake the cry of the orphan, nor the widow when she pours out her complaint. Do not the tears that stream down her cheek cry out against the one that causes them to fall? Those who serve God to please him are accepted; their petition reaches the clouds. 1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel: Do not judge from his appearance or from his lofty stature, because I have rejected him. God does not see as a mortal, who sees the appearance. The Lord looks into the heart. Psalm 34:19 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted, saves those whose spirit is crushed. I have so much to comment...I didn't forget you talking about Inside Out 2 previously! That video was what got me motivated to see the first one which I was a chatterbox about and keep thinking about..Hope you and your family have a wonderful day, JesterBelll! Thank you so much for such a personal heartfelt video! You rock! Oh, and Batman Begins is the best DC movie imo!
Real life inspire fictional stories. Fictional stories are inspired by real life events. This is how it has been since stories were told. They become interwoven in society. Dark/light side are literally part of the lexicon
Oh my crap, I can't even begin to explain all the times I've been saved in some way thanks to a fictional character. Instead I'll just say a more recent experience; When Cyberpunk 2077 came out, I told myself that I would buy it as soon as I got straight A's for a whole semester in college. I did it last year, so I bought and played Cyberpunk as promised. The thing is, after finishing it, I'll literally be going about my daily life and honest to God expect Johnny Silverhand to pop up and comment on whatever it is I'm doing. I got so used to it after playing through the game for so long and making such a profound connection and friendship with him, that I sometimes forget that I'm not actually V, and my city isn't actually Night City. I miss that mean old bastard a lot.
I use to care, now I just accept every character I enjoy got or will be bastardized at some point. Better to accept it than cry because they want your tears and insult you for caring in the first place.
I see fictional characters as non human because we simply do not have the abilities to write humans yet but we can make them emotionally resonate even if a person can not relate to them.
The people trying to gaslight us into thinking that fictional characters don't matter are the same ones actively corrupting and defacing these characters, it's disgusting (and the Acolyte was the latest example of that)
The only character that should matter, the best character to get us through the day, get us through life is Jesus Christ, whether you believe he was real or not.
Or when Babydoll broke down after looking at that funhouse mirror that showed how she would look as an adult and Batman comforts her. A man robed of his childhood and a woman who can't escape it. Also FunFact: Ace from Batman Beyond is named after that Ace.
@@Deuteromis yeah, I knew about Ace the dog. That was sweet. And yes, there's plenty of tear jerking moments. I'll never feel bad for crying like a little baby. It just happens.
Interesting fact, the word canon used for fictional stories (the word canon itself meaning truth from the bible) was first used when Sherlock Holmes was written later with a completely different type of character. Even back then people got upset about such things and demanded the work stick to canon.
Characters can be fun and help us strive to be better people. They can also serve ad warnings or what not to do and what not to be like. Are they real? No, they aren't. But people saying they don't matter at all are incredibly misguided.
It’s a critique to which I’m somewhat sympathetic when it comes from people who are sincere about it but the kinds of people who consider it extremely important to alter significant aspects of established characters aren’t the kinds of people that I take seriously when they offer this critique
“Since it is so likely that (children) will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker.” ― C.S. Lewis anybody that thinks it doesnt matter is truly evil in my eyes
@@matityaloran9157 the people who make it their goal or mission to tear down or belittle these characters do so because they hate the morality the characters represent its fine to not understand peoples attachment to fictional characters its a complete other thing to gleefully supplant what these characters represent to spite your percieved political/social enemies
@@matityaloran9157 i knew a guy who watched star wars with his father in theaters when he was a kid years later his father was old and dying and he asked his son to put on star wars so they could watch it together one last time anyone who would destroy that is truly evil in my eyes
Characters become internalized, they become part of us. The betrayal we feel when a friend or partner suddenly changes or turns out to be different than what we thought is the same betrayal we feel when a fictional character is drastically changed.
Ironically, blockbuster franchises have all become victims of a political activist Annie Wilkes, who causes those involve to apologize and cave in to the downgrade degeneracy culture being pushed in by a certain group. It's been a decade already of this roundabout argument and all it accomplishes is apathy.
People probably don't think about modern media as great art but that's exactly what the best examples are and great art should matter. I know these things are owned by giant corporations but we're well past the point of admitting what's being done is cultural vandalism.
Yeah, why is it when something is actually influential and recognizable in the modern day people decide it must be a fluke and that it isn't that important, but then try to push some shit no one's ever cared about as a bestselling story that will make history because it has "important topics".
I wasn't angry at Rian Johnson until I saw his response to critics of the Last Jedi on Twitter. It just looked like he enjoyed the suffering of fans. I just checked out.
Luke Skywalker is my all time favorite character in Star Wars Legends, and I wish that Disney made a film of him and his wife Mara Jade rebuilding the Jedi Order together instead of making Ma-Rey-Sue Palpatine rebuild the Jedi Order the exact same it was in the Prequels.
I got even more angry at him after his response to the fan backlash of Arya stealing Jon Snow's arc and anticlimactically killing the Night King for him while he was too busy screaming at a dragon in Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 3: "Damn. I had a really cool Night King theory!" It really came off as him taking a swing at us and the fans who were upset at Snoke's similarly dissatisfying death in TLJ.
@graylykan2739 He has a bad relationship with fans. I mean, was he ever a fan to begin with? People pay to see your work and you have a bizarre taste to mock them?
Because the ideas are real, they are analogies to things that people relate to in real life, they give people something to compare what they know with something else. By changing a characters appearance or personality you're telling the reader/watcher "this idea you believe in is wrong" or "what i want is more important than what is"
Yeah, I also always see these kind of behaviours as an insult to whoever previously worked on the project. If their vision is scrapped you are disrespecting real people who made a good effort to create something with meaning for others. If an author is dead, it feels worse. Almost like someone tried to double kill them by stamping out their legacy.
@iceprism367 yeah... it's like who are they, to come in after the fact and just say "this is the official version, and I made it!" I think stories are owned by those who read them, not by those who buy the copyrights for them.
@@violetlavi2207 Most of the authors beyond Zahn did not do her very well, and dropped the ball on a lot her dynamic with Luke. Yes I will never forgive Traviss for killing her off but also for her Jedi dislike as well. We had pushed so hard to get them married and then NJO gives her a disease and they don't even get a child till she's in her 40's either. We wanted Legacy Skywalkers for the future when Luke and Mara were younger.
The story of Zuko and Iroh is the best retelling of the Prodigal Son that I've ever seen in my life. As a Christian it legit led me to understand God and that parable in a much different and deeper way than I had before. And I agree, these characters and stories matter to us because of what they represent to us, what they mean in the context of our own lives.
We spend so much time with these characters that they become like friends to us, so when they are done dirty, it really hurts us, and when they gets wins, it's a massive win for us!
People care so much about characters, and when they are changed, it can invite the fans to disagree with the change. One side of the fan base may like this change which is perfectly legitimate, but it is also perfectly legitimate if there is a side of the fan base that doesn’t agree with the change to the character.
The one thing I've learned in my life is that if someone is upset, it should be taken seriously. They have a reason. They always have a reason. It may seem like they're freaking out over something silly, but you are not them. You do not have insight into what they are feeling. What isn't important to one person, is super important to someone else.
Peter B Parker: “Hey, we’ve all been there before. Y’know for me,… for me, it was my Uncle Ben. Spider-Man Noir: “And for me, it was my Uncle Benjamin.” Peni Parker: “For me, it was father.” Gwen Stacy: “For me, it was my best friend.” Spider Ham: “Miles, the hardest part of this job is… you can’t always save everyone.”
been saying this for years. honestly i view the "thu audiance needs to see them selves in the character" argument as incredibly toxic, it stops people from learning to care about people and stories that aren't theirs. the it's a fictional character argument is bullshi and gaslighting. if it were in any way vallid then why are the people useing to part of the sicussion in the first place.
Humans have always found importance in fictional characters and stories. It's a massive part of our culture and always have been. Look at all the old mythologies people still believe are real and dedicate their lives to worshipping even today. Movies and Tv series stories and characters are our modern new mythologies. Superheroes are the new gods. It's disingenuous to say they are not important and only silly stories. Our modern mythologies being undermined or appropriated is a serious reflection on our society and another symptom of a dying western society.
Yes, just because we don't think they literally live up on a tall hill near the town anymore doesn't mean they don't hold similar meaning to us. Their stories are still important!
This is a very very great video. That said. I can relate to Spiderman quirks and social anxieties. I went through trauma and am an isolationist like batman with brooding and do it myself attitude. I can relate to obi wan as well until Disney got a hold of him
Fictional characters don't matter? - Only to real people that lack any skill to write fictional characters, but want to make money of them.
If that kind of thinking is widely spread among creatives, it is no surprise that the writing has gone downhill.
As a story teller your #1 goal is for your audience to feel something about your characters, if you're making tge argument that fictional characters don't matter you've lost the plot, literally
I hate it when people say "it's a fictional character, no big deal" argument as a way to justify bastardizing legacy characters that we've grown to love.
Like what they did to Luke Skywalker in TLJ, Harry Potter in Cursed Child, etc etc.
fictional characters/individuals have been interpreted and re-interpreted for as long as stories have been told and when different cultures come into contact with those stories.
If it's no big deal, they wouldn't be going after them as hard as they have been. Those making these shows and movies know how important they are, but are hiding behind this phrase so the normies won't think twice about it.
Fear not. This too will pass.
70 years later people still watch and rave about the Maltese Falcon while hundreds of other movies are forgotten. 70 years from now the original trilogy will still be watched and enjoyed while the rest of "Star Wars" will be a footnote at best.
@@gloriathomas3245You're referring to the way information traveled in a time when you couldn't go on the internet and find the source material. This doesn't really apply in the information age.
It's a conversation stopper, not a meaningful attempt to engage. It is designed to dismiss & minimalist a perspective they don't understand - in other words, a failure of empathy.
My response to the question will always be the same: "if it doesn't matter, then why do you care if I'm so invested?"
Exactly
And they responded with silence right?
If it matters to you the way real people matter to you then you probably are too attached to fictional characters and it makes sense to care about you caring too much because you are real. That having been established, it’s not the case that fictional characters don’t matter at all.
@@matityaloran9157I disagree, if you went on Facebook and made "friends" with someone, then find out that person was fake or a stolen identity, the difference between the people effected by that identity theft and those effected by a fictional character is 1...
Now sure the real life person likely got harmed more but you likely both got robbed.
I say the same thing to people who change characters then claim I shouldn't care about the change. well then why was it changed in the first place? It's gaslighting and an appeal to triviality to mask that they do care and simply like the change.
They may not be real, but they represent things that are #ShadyDoorags
Or, on the contrary, ideals that are unrealistic, but which inspire us.
I honestly don't understand how people can brush off the assassinations of beloved characters by the higher-ups who never cared about the franchises they're destroying, by asking the fans why they care so much and to stop making "such a big deal" out of it, when they would be feeling the same way if it was done to their favorite characters--or more personally, if it was characters that they created themselves that were being destroyed. Unless you, for some reason, don't give a crap about your own product that you've slaved away for years and decades... which I also don't understand.
I've been writing for years, been drawing my characters for years, and I have many characters I've created over the years that I've come to love as heroes and as villains. I've had my main character since 2008, my preteen years, and as such he is my most personal out of the rest of them and I've been creating and developing his story since December 2013.
So when I hear fans' reactions to characters being unnecessarily changed for nothing but the higher-up's own ulterior political goals, when I hear fans getting understandably angry at characters' personalities being defiled by the studio's own sense of entitlement and political motives, and/or replaced by inferior gender-swapped and/or race-swapped Mary-Sue clones without all the relatability and the flaws that made the characters they're replacing feel real, all while the studios take a huge dump all over the original franchises and lie about them as if they were always problematic from the start (looking at you, Amazon and the Rings of Prime, and looking at you, Disney and your trash-heap "live-action" remakes), and finally tell their own audience to "take it or shut the eff up", "it's just a movie", "they're just characters! they're not real", "it wasn't made for you", or "it's for a new generation now", I get pissed. Because I think to myself how much effort went into making those franchises and those movies and comics, the amount of years the creators slaved away, how much blood, sweat, and tears went into earning the popularity they got. And if those were my characters being taken from me and desecrated to appeal to some made-up political "modern audience" and to appeal to the crapfest that is the politics of today, I would be very pissed off and would not accept it.
So many people grew up with Disney, with Star Wars, with Star Trek, with Lord of the Rings, and so many people got inspired to create their own IPs because of them. Fictional characters help other people look outside the box and relate to others that don't look like them, think differently, or live different lives from them. So don't let people tell you to stop critiquing these studios and their destruction of the original franchises, just because the characters aren't real.
Keep up the good work, and great video!
The "new generation" thing makes me angry, and I always answer that even new generations deserve GOOD WRITING and well made characters.
(By the way: drawing and writing weird author here, me too! 🙂)
@@marcellaacone7085 yet you all hate the new generations and have zero hope for them
@@chandlerburse - I am the hater here? Ok BOOMER!
@@chandlerburse if the new generation is crappy, because they have been raised on vapid social media bullshit, fake political ideals, and a shit ton of drugs, doesn't that just prove their point?
just because a shit person deserved better doesn't mean they're not a shit person, in fact, the mistreatment or denial of critical things plays a large role in them being... shit.
where past generations had epics, and stories, deep concepts, and discussions of trauma, historic universal feelings like abandonment, hopelessness, and love... the new generation has one dimensional mary sues, and... tik-tok.
They will learn nothing, and feel nothing.
@@chandlerbursewho is this “you all” think before you comment.
The people who do this to characters and stories that they don't care about, are just like school bullies who steal the toys from kids on the playground. They start mashing two guys' faces together, mockingly make them say and do things that the characters would never say or do, usually with mocking voices as well.
I'd like to think it's not malicious, like this, but they've done this far too many times. It's not "fan fiction", like these people have always loved the characters and stories that they're now continuing... what they do to the characters is evil. It's "hate fiction", and I believe they know what they're doing.
Spite fiction era
Fictional characters are not real, but when you follow a franchise for long enough, you will grow emotional attachments to them as if they were real, so it doesn’t matter when a franchise destroys them
All stories are fictional. You can never capture reality in the retelling of something.
@@nicholasflamel1134agreed.
The people who make fun of others for getting attached to fictional characters are often the same people who scream and throw things if a football player on tv doesn’t throw the football very well.
Nah. They’re the same ranting and raving about “the message” like Critical Drinker. It’s all a big joke until it’s a character they care about.
They're not. They're the same kind of people who will make fun of the people who dare to get attached enough to their favorite NFL team to cheer them on or wear their favorite players' jerseys to games. It's about having an angle to feel superior to someone else rather than empathizing.
True. I breaks my heart to see a character I love, not only be written badly, but being so misunderstood that future readers and writers alike think that the worst written version of that character is how they should always be portrayed.
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My Fear with Superman.
In my first year of Uni I had an Anthropology course. We studied myths, early civilisations in relation to fairy tales and myths etc. One thing that stuck with me was that, according to research, early orally told fairy tales would elicit the same reactions we see today in the audience if they weren't told right. Even worse, because then the story teller could face physical repercussions even. The hero's journey was supposed to go a certain way, every one being very familiar with the trope and the characters themselves weren't that well contoured- just the bare bones: the hero who is young and brave, the heroine who is the most beautiful there is etc. Just a simple phrase to kinda give the audience a sense of the archetype they embodied. The story itself was and remains a ritual. That blew my mind. I even wanted to do my PhD on that topic but ultimately let that dream go. My point is, it seems people who are in charge of telling stories should be educated in that area to really understand how the subconscious works. My guess is that they are trying to influence that with modern ideas but, in a sense, they miss that the bones of a story and characters should remain the same. I recently watched George Lucas talking about myths and how he wanted to offer that to a new generation and I also just found out he is an Anthropology major himself. That makes so much sense. He understands the human need for myths, for heroes and catharsis.
Edit: I think Jung explains this best when talking about the collective subconscious. I strongly encourage anyone to check out his ideas.
Anthropology hopefully taught you also that our species is worthless
I'm not really in any fandoms, but I'm obsessed with my own characters and writing (judge me if you want idc), and one thing that I saw once that still kinda pisses me off to think about was someone saying something like, "Stop saying your character did this or your character did that and surprised you. They're not real, and you're not quirky for acting like they are." It was just this same attitude but repackaged as "writing advice" and it's never made sense to me. Let people feel things. Let them be excited about characters or proud of their work. The type of people that brush this off are clearly not artists and belong in a boardroom looking at graphs and pie charts.
And clearly not worth bothering with
Atticus Finch has been a role model and a touchstone of integrity throughout my life -- a fictional character.
He got destroyed too sadly
@@ChildOfTheFlowerEverything with Go Set a Watchman is kind of funny and kind of sad. From “whoa! An unreleased sequel to Kill an Mockingbird” to “oh. So that’s why it was never released.”
14:23 Oh, look, that is a moment Luke and Kylo should have had in the Sequels. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Character assassination, retcon and just straight up alteration changes are some of the worse things that van happen for me.
the incredible hulk is the character i am most attached too, seeing him being ruined from avengers 2012 all the way to the present hurt alot, he is not some butt of the joke, he is a complex serious character that goes through so much, he saw his mom die, he had a abusive father, he has many personality's as the hulk, and with all that, he still goes out of his way to help people (as bruce or hulk).
seeing him now as the "oh ha ha, look he hit thor in a funny way." or seeing him wimp out with thanos. it's just character assassination.
Never mind his treatment in She Hulk.
Edward Norton understood Hulk a lot better than the modern MCU does
some people seem really set on ruining lots of things that, according to them, don't matter.
right they shout about how it doesn't matter, while dedicating a ton of effort to changing it.
But if it "doesn't matter" why are they changing it!?
I find it very serendipitous that you posted this video on the anniversary of the "death" of one of my favorite series (Guillermo del Toro's Tales of Arcadia series on Netflix--the series finale premiered on July 21st, 2021 and was one of the biggest, most unexpected "screw you"s to the audience I've ever seen). Sometimes I feel a little embarrassed that a show suddenly turning horrible right at the very end made me mourn as much as it has--especially since it had its' fair share of "goofy kids' cartoon (derogatory)" moments. But it helped a lot hearing you explain some of the psychology behind my attachment to those characters.
Someone please use this video as reference for a TED talk or something!
This was an awesome video! I hate when people do that. The whole point is to be invested in these fictional characters. It's a passion and should never be shamed for. I get it all the time about the assassination Harley's character.
You said it perfectly: " *And sometimes it's the people who get most upset with how characters are being used are the people who know them the best. That's why they notice the details of when they change. And to be upset about that is just them being passionate, not wanting to lose something that's good* " 💯👏
Imagine your dog died, or your house burned down. All your sentimental belongings are destroyed... And someone walks up to you and says "What's the big deal? Just move on."
People use that “It’s just make believe!” bs when they have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, but they still want to dismiss someone else’s critique. They’re either liars, trolls, or sociopaths. Caring about something that is incapable of returning that affection is one of the highest forms of empathy.
empathy is the reason why i fell in love with the original version of Harley Quinn
Eustass Kid is a mass murder that crucifies people, and I feel more empathy towards him than any current animated or live action remake film from Disney.
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You fell in love with a deranged stockholm murderer because of empathy?
@chandlerburse well what villian do YOU like then 😒
@@horrordragon2010 Killer Croc, Two Face, Mr Freeze, Clayface, Joker, Penguin, Firefly, Falcone, Catwoman
X: "This character / series / worldbulding was destroyed.
Y: "No I disagree / it's not that bad."
X: "I can elaborate on the how and why: [longness here]"
Y: "Ugh, why do you care??"
The factor of wanting to win with an opinion no matter what is all too present. Oftentimes "caring about fiction too much" isn't criticized reasonably, but as an easy means to point out the flaws on others and get points in a discussion. It's petty, some criticism make people feel bad and they react badly about it by wanting those critics to lose in society by whatever means. In a certain postcast I watch, all the people who act like this are either kinda dumb & with low standards in their understanding of media, or the same on top of hypocrites, as they care too much about fiction themselves with enough time in between their accusations.
Even when the fictional characters are complete fantasy, they're all based on real feelings, even real stories from real people.
my favourite character is The Joker and to see him getting trained by some bloke named Captio??? in the comics recently.... man you gotta be kidding me 😂😂😂
The characters may not be real, but our emotions are. When Maleficent has her wings cut off by someone she trusted and reacts the way she does is a brutal gut punch every time I see it.
If I was a college professor, I would give you an A+. You really touched the topic in such a deep and beautiful way. Your video essay capitalizes on how we as individuals feel, or hold on to such wonderfully made fictional characters.❤
Sidenote: There is quite the growing hatred and resentment building for Batman. Not from the general audiences, but from a subset of fans (and a lot of the creators). There is a lot of talk about him being a fascist and a corrupt billionaire, and so on and so forth. I see more and more efforts to tear him down. Its sad.
I’m am genuinely sick and tired of people online calling superheroes “defenders of the status quo.” Like, no. They’re literally taking matters into their own hands to stop criminals and supervillains. If every story was “ro ro fight the power” shit would get boring and repetitive. Fiction doesn’t have to stick to one mold.
What troubles me most is that this current generation is gleefully tearing down everything that came before, but they don't have anything to offer in exchange. Once they have succeeded in tearing down everything anyone loves, what then?
It's a sign of good writing, I have just started reading Gunslinger girl, and a lot of the cast are broken in some way or another that it's possible to emphasize with. From Henrietta to Pinoiocco, you are feeling something for someone from mild disgust to pity to sharing their joy.
That's good writing, for me.
The same people who dismiss fictional characters are the same kind of people who will then go on to sink a couple thousand dollars into their FANTASY football league.
If you’re looking for more scholarly looking at the importance of imaginary characters, see CS Lewis’ essays in defense of the Fairy Tale like “Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said” or Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy-Stories”. Because back after the First World War there was a massive shift away from fantasy. They said kids needed _real_ stories. (If you look at a list of Newberry books from the 40s, you’ll see that a LOT of them were biographies.)
I know the difference between fiction and reality & I also understand that fictional characters are precious (Especially the characters we grew up with) too. I also know that I should not hurt people who played characters I don't like. I respect those who like characters I don't like & I respect and understand you too, JesterBell.
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@@notyouraverageharleyquinnstan Agreed.
All I could think about while you were talking was Arthur Morgan. I’ve been sad characters have died before but Arthur hit like I lost a family member. I get sad when I think about him still, I mean it’s really like you lost someone. It’s so odd.
Because these characters are a part of our childhoods, and taught us lessons about life similar to our parents. Yes their "not real" but the basis of their ideologies, and world views are real at least to me.
Our childhoods are fucking gone
Reliving them is fun but its still gone and our species is probably gonna die
We need heroes, we need to admire and be inspired by ideal characters that may not exist in real life but can make us feel better and perhaps even inspire us to be better than what we are
7:50,. There's a lot of great moments throughout the trilogy, but this particularly scene has always stuck with me and solidifies Sam as one of the best supporting characters in any piece of fiction! At least in my opinion, anyways. Astin's delivery of this line is so powerful, accompanied with the "Into the West" tempo blasted to a soaring climax when Sam hauls Frodo over his shoulders and proceeds to carry him to Mt. Doom. Absolute chills! I'm glad I'm not the only one to have been touched by this scene!
Sometimes people do something that is completely out of character for them. As much as people are logical and consistent people can be emotional or irrational and do something unpredictable. It can be unpleasant to experience someone doing something out of character, but it is still realistic for that to happen.
I feel this way about Jinx from Teen Titans, I was invested in the character and her potential relationship with Cyborg. Then Season 5 happened and i felt kinda betrayed by how she was written. It felt mean spirited towards the Hive Five too.
I would've preferred Jinx marrying and having a family with Cyborg; Kid Flash marrying and having a family with Artemis, and Jason Todd marrying and having a family with Slade Wilson's daughter.
I think it's quite beautiful that human's can even empathizes with people who don't exist.
Fictional characters are meant to be a reflection of ourselves and our cherished societal values.
Traditional fictional heroes around the world, regardless of background, have commonly sought to embody heroism, true love, bravery, discipline, strength, and honesty.
Taking that and destroying it and/or bastardizing it is a form or cultural and societal breakdown… vandalism at the representation of our values.
Only a fool or an enemy would demolish such a thing.
I got a long list of characters I can relate to. Me and my sister relate to Peter Parker (Spider-Man) because he goes through alot and takes alot of responsibilities.
many moons ago,there was a scene in The English Patient film that really moved me to tears... traveling through the desert after a plane crash,the character of the Count carried his injured beloved for miles to the safety of a cave and afterwards went for aid/help,only to return to find out she had passed... 😢
I walked out of TLJ depressed
Same. I had this feeling of "wow... so this is how the main saga will end, huh?" I knew it was doomed and the next movie wasn't going to fix things. Both the new characters and the old characters had been turned into these super unlikable weird versions of themselves and the story just felt so mean-spirited.
This was Disney's only chance to wrap up the story with the og actors and pass the torch to the next generation, and they botched it in the worst way possible. The fact that Carrie died during the trilogy's production and freaking Mary Poppins Leia was one of her last real moments on screen is painful
I think there's a difference between the more static (and once honored) lore of SW and LOTR, and the much more fluid universes like Marvel and DC where experimentation is a huge part of the history.
Really goodstuff thanks.
I've been recommding your channel to Star Wars Theory, Critical Drinker...you have great assessments. Intelligent, introspective and articulated nicely. Love your videos and agree with you.
If fictional characters didn't emotionally connect to the reader, I wouldn't want to be a writer.
If it's nothing but simple "entertainment" then whatever, let people play Candy Crush. But we know it's more than that.
I hate this argument that we shouldn't take a deal because theyre not real.
Dude why shouldn't I cry if my favourite character of all time wich is Oh Yoon hee is suffering her entire life and is having a brutal and emotional death?!
We cry because we matter, ae matter because we like thess character and we like these characters because they are good written!
I wouldn’t take Steven King seriously when he had written a "child orgy" in one of his books just saying…
This was great to get some insight on things. Say, I know with Star Wars I didn't quite know how to articulate how it had changed and not felt like the old Star Wars. After watching so many people describe it I know feel I can better describe it myself.
I think you said it right at the beginning: "watching TLOTR is a spiritual Journey" and that's it. They are no mere entertainment. The characters feel real. And believable
Yes. The catharsis. The opportunity to process and go through things in a safe way. Myths, stories, histories, narrative are so important for us to develop and understand.
I am not crazy!!!! Oh my goodness I am not crazy! Thank you so much, I know I am not the only one.
this is probably the best analysis of media I've seen in a while, you put all my thoughts into words I couldn't even describe great job
my man anakin had the best story arc in any series ever and they flushed it for an evil mary sue.
I grew up with Halo and the Master chief. Even if he is fictional, he taught me to "finish the fight". 3 Words that give me strength even in hard times. He is a symbol for me, a symbol of strength and integrity. A man that (not in his childhood) willingly protects, even if it means to sacrifice himself. Things that i deeply praise and which are part of my value system. Now seeing this Man getting devolved into a pre-pubercent sex driven emotionally unstable failed project by Paramount was a personal attack. They went for greed and attacked which i hold sacred.
Fuck big companies attacking and using art for their financial or ideological benefit.
Characters are made up of two parts their personality and core urge for example the thing that makes peter and (spider verse miles ) different is not their personalitys thats surface level. Peter started out as somebody that didn't care about responsibility just himself because he was powerless against the bullies . Miles was afraid of responsibility because he thought it would take his individuality away thats why he gravitated towards uncle aron at the start but changed his tune when he saw what happened to uncle aron and gained permission to be himself from his dad in the scene were he was webbed to the wheel chair scene.
Great video, thanks for sharing...
Another aspect to feeling attachments and feelings towards fictional characters and stories, is association... Associating a memory, event, experience, and/or emotion with something you experienced in a movie/show/play/book/etc... Which can evoke memories and feelings associated to both, when one or the other presents itself... I hope that makes sense... An example might be, going to the movies as a kid with your mother or father, that allows you to revisit that bonding experience in your mind, each time you watch that same movie or see those characters, that you can emotionally attach to that experience... Another example might be experiencing a high emotion, due to how impactful a story and/or character/s was at a specific moment in your life... Allowing you to connect on some level to those experiences... However it occurs, it does occur... Plus each person can attach to different experiences, real and/or fictional, in varying levels...
It's what can differ between a Fan and a Visitor... A fan typically has an emotional attachment/s to stories and/or characters from a prior experience/s... A visitor can enjoy the same experience/s, without attaching emotionally to much if anything... Neither result is invalid, and will vary from person to person based on what they like and/or do not like... Everyone is different...
I fully understand and agree with most of what JesterBell talks about in this video... It's both simple and complex at the same time... As a fan of something, when someone comes along and tries to ruin a prior experience, depending on a fan's tolerance levels, they can feel hurt, frustrated, and/or angry as though that experience they love is being attacked... This can occur when a sequel or prequel retcons prior movies/shows, forces changes without regard to what came before, nonchalantly disregards the larger fandom of a given product, and so on... So, I totally understand where JesterBell is coming from in this video... People are complex, in a world that likes to treat people like they are simple...
this was a very good video, i hope youre proud of yourself!
Nobody talk about it but in the third OSS117 the main character is changed from being naive to being actually mean.
Recently, one of my favorite characters, who is pretty much unpopular, was drastically changed to the point that I think that this destroyed them. But why should people care? They were just an unpopular character nobody gave a fuck anyway, so no one will notice the change, which makes it much more worse.
Thx for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this topic.. Awesome vid as always..
There is one very specific character that this video makes me think of. I won't say who it is as I have learned it's better not to when talking about how strongly I felt about him (as he is fairly polarizing), but he was my first introduction to a character assassination so bad that I completely lost interest in the larger story and stopped following it. This was years ago, and while I eventually was able to enjoy the early portion of the story, to this day thinking about the story as a whole puts such a bad taste in my mouth that if I am talking about it to someone else, I end up ranting about the wasted potential. All because this one character that I was super invested in was completely ruined by terrible writing.
So yeah. I feel all the sentiments expressed in this video in my bones.
Yes! Yes! And YES! Well stated!
This is all perfectly said.
Very beautifully said. Thank you for making this video and sharing your thoughts with us. ❤
JesterBell, this was wonderful! Thank you for sharing your beautiful heart! I don't think this was easy at all! You rock! JesterBell...are we similar in that can you talk a mile-a-minute where you throw everything and the kitchen sink after just hearing a bit of information, and your mind just goes all over the place in excitement? It's a reason 90s comic Deadpool was the fictional character I related to the most...I regularly think about the scene in the Hulk vs Wolverine animated movie (the only adaptation I liked...besides X-Men Origins Wolverine because I liked the sword deflecting scene..and maybe Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3) Hulk's "Talking man, hurt Hulk, Hulk rip off talking man's head!" when I'm with my friends. haha
I want to comment on everything but already I keep going over the comment limit and I've backspaced so much here over and over...I don't currently understand certain feeling stuff here (it will probably come when I'm out at night or working out! I don't if you remember after your "depiction isn't promotion" vid I was smoothly subtly wrestling with that vid bringing it up to you later on lol because I kinda understood it but I recognized a blindspot in myself especially you were talking emotions where I understood it to my wackly logical framework but....anyways!), and I mean that sincerely which I realized that's a blindspot for me, which men are typically more detached from feelings than women (which might be helpful to think about if any guys criticize you....apparently, we can't even see color as well as women, along with us not having women's empathetic superpower) , and it's a reason years ago, I thought about it when doing chin ups (working out helps with circulation to think) to not call people hypocrites but use the word "inconsistent" because it's more gentle (and I recognize my failings...so I don't mind if you do!) which might make them re-think things where...like with me, I talk in novels about everything and don't even realize how I'm coming across where I don't even think I'm having any emotion/or passion but others can clearly see it, and our passions are what motivate us to use our intellect...facts might not care about feelings, but it takes feelings to care about the facts....I backspaced so much..
so many things I related to here, starting with Avatar, I turned off that series getting turned turned off by Aang thinking it was too emotional but then went back to push through because the series was so well regarded, and Toph and Zuko were the characters that got me hooked and then I remember being invested in everybody. I just backspaced a bunch....
I remember Avatar the Last Airbender being in the top 10 greatest tv shows I've ever seen, and I don't just throw that out there....I have to keep backspacing...however, while I don't consider it one of the greatest, trying to be impartial, I actually got the 2003 Teen Titans DVDs, as well as the Batman TAS complete series on DVD (never got any Marvel series), and the first superhero movie I ever purchased was Batman Mask of the Phantasm.
I recorded myself doing the "I didn't count on being happy" scene over and over hoping to get it right by my standard knowing it by heart. It was my favorite childhood movie scene besides The Return of the Jedi's Luke "Father please" Vader redemption scene, and I didn't get that movie until last month thanks to your motivation to re-think Star Wars movies since while I liked scenes out of context, I didn't care much for Star Wars movies besides Revenge of the Sith, which is one of my all time favorite movies and when watching Avatar, at the time, I thought of Zuko being a better written version of Anakin but ....anyways, thanks to you, the George Lucas movies were the first movies I purchased in 7 years (besides earlier this year getting The Nightmare Before Christmas earlier this year which...that's another novel) !
However, as an adult, Sam carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom is my favorite movie scene where I can't even think of a second place. I don't have anything now, but had it as my wallpaper on one of my previous phones when struggling with depression.
I nominated the Lord of the Rings' Samwise Gamgee for greatest fictional character being a character who wasn't the greatest looking, strongest, most intelligent, but he had a good heart and ordered all his passions/heart well, which as a result, brightened his intellect to use his free will with self-sacrificial heroic love.
And I think art, at best, is a communication of the heart to deliver a metaphorical perception of reality/history/experience to uplift people to the true, the good, and the beautiful, where it gets into our emotions/passions, which can help motivate us to strive to and give us more clarity to use our gift of intellect to grasp at the good and use our gift of free will, our capability to direct ourselves to the true good, and that's why it makes sense to me why so many fans don't separate the art from the artist, sacrificing so much to meet those involved with the creative process hoping the creators will hold in their hearts elements of what was so meaningful to them.
...and, because of my Batman fandom, I purchased the Justice League Unlimited DVD at a bookstore with the Justice League Unlimited Ace swingset scene with the DCAU Batman holding her hand before she passed away, and I thought of it as a metaphorical illustration of what fiction can mean to people, giving pep in their step. I didn't see that scene as a kid like Batman Mask of the Phantasm, but that's how I thought of fiction since childhood.
I related to what you said about characters being like friends, especially with Spider-man and X-Men comics as a kid, and I remember when you brought up a song from a movie I'd play and sing from on the piano as a little kid, Hunchback of Notre Dame; you brought up the song "God Help the Outcasts" and I was wondering if that had some kind of connection with your interest in Batman, Spider-man, and the X-Men where you have metaphorical interest similar to me in...I gotta go!
I don't know if you'd be interested but when I pray to Jesus, I ask for the intercession of Saint Joseph Cupertino. He was known for supernaturally levitating during prayer, was socially awkward and struggled with learning disability, was constantly shamed, belittled, and misunderstood. In the eyes of the world, he appeared almost completely useless, but that's not how God saw him, and, imo, he gives hope that none of us our disqualified from sainthood because of our weaknesses. Our value comes from God, not from the world.
Hope you enjoy these!
1 Corinthians 26-31 Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God. It is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Whoever boasts, should boast in the Lord.”
Sirach 35:16-20 He shows no partiality to the weak but hears the grievance of the oppressed. He does not forsake the cry of the orphan, nor the widow when she pours out her complaint. Do not the tears that stream down her cheek cry out against the one that causes them to fall? Those who serve God to please him are accepted; their petition reaches the clouds.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel: Do not judge from his appearance or from his lofty stature, because I have rejected him. God does not see as a mortal, who sees the appearance. The Lord looks into the heart.
Psalm 34:19 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted, saves those whose spirit is crushed.
I have so much to comment...I didn't forget you talking about Inside Out 2 previously! That video was what got me motivated to see the first one which I was a chatterbox about and keep thinking about..Hope you and your family have a wonderful day, JesterBelll!
Thank you so much for such a personal heartfelt video! You rock! Oh, and Batman Begins is the best DC movie imo!
Real life inspire fictional stories. Fictional stories are inspired by real life events. This is how it has been since stories were told. They become interwoven in society. Dark/light side are literally part of the lexicon
Oh my crap, I can't even begin to explain all the times I've been saved in some way thanks to a fictional character. Instead I'll just say a more recent experience; When Cyberpunk 2077 came out, I told myself that I would buy it as soon as I got straight A's for a whole semester in college. I did it last year, so I bought and played Cyberpunk as promised. The thing is, after finishing it, I'll literally be going about my daily life and honest to God expect Johnny Silverhand to pop up and comment on whatever it is I'm doing. I got so used to it after playing through the game for so long and making such a profound connection and friendship with him, that I sometimes forget that I'm not actually V, and my city isn't actually Night City. I miss that mean old bastard a lot.
I use to care, now I just accept every character I enjoy got or will be bastardized at some point. Better to accept it than cry because they want your tears and insult you for caring in the first place.
Star Buck. I couldn't watch the last BG because that change. Not saying was bad. I just couldn't watch.
Yooooo. Im less than 1 min in. Check out the 90s movie called SFW (not SWF). SFW has Stephen Dorff in it.
Bottom line ---- everything matters.
My favorite fictional character goku because goku tell me give up
I see fictional characters as non human because we simply do not have the abilities to write humans yet but we can make them emotionally resonate even if a person can not relate to them.
The people trying to gaslight us into thinking that fictional characters don't matter are the same ones actively corrupting and defacing these characters, it's disgusting (and the Acolyte was the latest example of that)
👍
Sometimes you have to move on.
😂
if characters from books or movies "actually hurts" then you need to get away from it. something is wrong..
The only character that should matter, the best character to get us through the day, get us through life is Jesus Christ, whether you believe he was real or not.
When Batman holds Ace's hand in Justice League because she's scared of dying. Tears every damn time 😢
This.
But apparently it's dumb because they're fictional character -_-
@@Hanoua2 yep...
Or when Babydoll broke down after looking at that funhouse mirror that showed how she would look as an adult and Batman comforts her. A man robed of his childhood and a woman who can't escape it.
Also FunFact: Ace from Batman Beyond is named after that Ace.
@@Deuteromis yeah, I knew about Ace the dog. That was sweet. And yes, there's plenty of tear jerking moments. I'll never feel bad for crying like a little baby. It just happens.
“Your feelings for her, are not real.”
“THEY ARE REAL TO ME!!!”
I know what you’re referencing and I salute you for it
@@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho"It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out."
Damn I knew this but I can't remember where it is from 😂
@@crakhaedI have seen it in too many things to know if I even saw the first time.
@@crakhaedForce Unleashed 2
Interesting fact, the word canon used for fictional stories (the word canon itself meaning truth from the bible) was first used when Sherlock Holmes was written later with a completely different type of character. Even back then people got upset about such things and demanded the work stick to canon.
Characters can be fun and help us strive to be better people. They can also serve ad warnings or what not to do and what not to be like. Are they real? No, they aren't. But people saying they don't matter at all are incredibly misguided.
It’s a critique to which I’m somewhat sympathetic when it comes from people who are sincere about it but the kinds of people who consider it extremely important to alter significant aspects of established characters aren’t the kinds of people that I take seriously when they offer this critique
“Since it is so likely that (children) will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker.” ― C.S. Lewis anybody that thinks it doesnt matter is truly evil in my eyes
C.S.Lewis the GOAT!
I agree with Lewis. That said, someone can be misguided and wrong without being evil
@@matityaloran9157 the people who make it their goal or mission to tear down or belittle these characters do so because they hate the morality the characters represent its fine to not understand peoples attachment to fictional characters its a complete other thing to gleefully supplant what these characters represent to spite your percieved political/social enemies
@@alexandermccabe556 Yes. That is the point I was making
@@matityaloran9157 i knew a guy who watched star wars with his father in theaters when he was a kid years later his father was old and dying and he asked his son to put on star wars so they could watch it together one last time anyone who would destroy that is truly evil in my eyes
Characters become internalized, they become part of us. The betrayal we feel when a friend or partner suddenly changes or turns out to be different than what we thought is the same betrayal we feel when a fictional character is drastically changed.
Ironically, blockbuster franchises have all become victims of a political activist Annie Wilkes, who causes those involve to apologize and cave in to the downgrade degeneracy culture being pushed in by a certain group. It's been a decade already of this roundabout argument and all it accomplishes is apathy.
People probably don't think about modern media as great art but that's exactly what the best examples are and great art should matter.
I know these things are owned by giant corporations but we're well past the point of admitting what's being done is cultural vandalism.
Yeah, why is it when something is actually influential and recognizable in the modern day people decide it must be a fluke and that it isn't that important, but then try to push some shit no one's ever cared about as a bestselling story that will make history because it has "important topics".
I wasn't angry at Rian Johnson until I saw his response to critics of the Last Jedi on Twitter. It just looked like he enjoyed the suffering of fans. I just checked out.
Luke Skywalker is my all time favorite character in Star Wars Legends, and I wish that Disney made a film of him and his wife Mara Jade rebuilding the Jedi Order together instead of making Ma-Rey-Sue Palpatine rebuild the Jedi Order the exact same it was in the Prequels.
I got even more angry at him after his response to the fan backlash of Arya stealing Jon Snow's arc and anticlimactically killing the Night King for him while he was too busy screaming at a dragon in Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 3: "Damn. I had a really cool Night King theory!"
It really came off as him taking a swing at us and the fans who were upset at Snoke's similarly dissatisfying death in TLJ.
@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr The money is with the Skywalkers. They can get other actors to play them, but they are Star Wars.
@graylykan2739 He has a bad relationship with fans. I mean, was he ever a fan to begin with? People pay to see your work and you have a bizarre taste to mock them?
Because the ideas are real, they are analogies to things that people relate to in real life, they give people something to compare what they know with something else.
By changing a characters appearance or personality you're telling the reader/watcher "this idea you believe in is wrong" or "what i want is more important than what is"
Yeah, I also always see these kind of behaviours as an insult to whoever previously worked on the project. If their vision is scrapped you are disrespecting real people who made a good effort to create something with meaning for others.
If an author is dead, it feels worse. Almost like someone tried to double kill them by stamping out their legacy.
@iceprism367 yeah... it's like who are they, to come in after the fact and just say "this is the official version, and I made it!"
I think stories are owned by those who read them, not by those who buy the copyrights for them.
That was well done. Thinking about what was done to Mara Jade in the books and what was done to Luke in the sequels still hurts.
What happened to Mara Jade in the books? Jacen killing her, or something else?
@@violetlavi2207 Most of the authors beyond Zahn did not do her very well, and dropped the ball on a lot her dynamic with Luke. Yes I will never forgive Traviss for killing her off but also for her Jedi dislike as well. We had pushed so hard to get them married and then NJO gives her a disease and they don't even get a child till she's in her 40's either. We wanted Legacy Skywalkers for the future when Luke and Mara were younger.
@@MariahJade1 oh yikes. Thanks for the summary, that really sucks
The story of Zuko and Iroh is the best retelling of the Prodigal Son that I've ever seen in my life. As a Christian it legit led me to understand God and that parable in a much different and deeper way than I had before. And I agree, these characters and stories matter to us because of what they represent to us, what they mean in the context of our own lives.
We spend so much time with these characters that they become like friends to us, so when they are done dirty, it really hurts us, and when they gets wins, it's a massive win for us!
Well said...thanks for sharing your vulnerability with us...
People care so much about characters, and when they are changed, it can invite the fans to disagree with the change. One side of the fan base may like this change which is perfectly legitimate, but it is also perfectly legitimate if there is a side of the fan base that doesn’t agree with the change to the character.
The one thing I've learned in my life is that if someone is upset, it should be taken seriously. They have a reason. They always have a reason. It may seem like they're freaking out over something silly, but you are not them. You do not have insight into what they are feeling.
What isn't important to one person, is super important to someone else.
I am upset and no one cares
People get upset all the TIME and no one cares
What a terrible argument
Also this argument basically validates every childish tantrum ever
Chill!!! Uncle aaron, btas, iroh, zuko!!!! You're making me cry rn 😭
Peter B Parker: “Hey, we’ve all been there before. Y’know for me,… for me, it was my Uncle Ben.
Spider-Man Noir: “And for me, it was my Uncle Benjamin.”
Peni Parker: “For me, it was father.”
Gwen Stacy: “For me, it was my best friend.”
Spider Ham: “Miles, the hardest part of this job is… you can’t always save everyone.”
been saying this for years. honestly i view the "thu audiance needs to see them selves in the character" argument as incredibly toxic, it stops people from learning to care about people and stories that aren't theirs.
the it's a fictional character argument is bullshi and gaslighting. if it were in any way vallid then why are the people useing to part of the sicussion in the first place.
Humans have always found importance in fictional characters and stories. It's a massive part of our culture and always have been. Look at all the old mythologies people still believe are real and dedicate their lives to worshipping even today. Movies and Tv series stories and characters are our modern new mythologies. Superheroes are the new gods. It's disingenuous to say they are not important and only silly stories. Our modern mythologies being undermined or appropriated is a serious reflection on our society and another symptom of a dying western society.
Yes, just because we don't think they literally live up on a tall hill near the town anymore doesn't mean they don't hold similar meaning to us. Their stories are still important!
This is a very very great video. That said.
I can relate to Spiderman quirks and social anxieties.
I went through trauma and am an isolationist like batman with brooding and do it myself attitude.
I can relate to obi wan as well until Disney got a hold of him