Honestly, gonna repeat this: People are human beings, can we please stop saying each other are demons just for having other opinions. Criticisms are valid, but when you're going after a person instead of debating and talking civilly it creates unnecessary tension. People have all processed and interpreted Arcane in different ways, and I think we should celebrate differences of opinion instead of rejecting other's and making false claims, jumping on a ban wagon, etc
Arcane Twitter doesn't deal in nuance. For every one crying about JayVik not being canon, they're out there calling him a "fruit" and other "reclaimed slurs" because it's cute.
thank you! if we start a witchhunt every time a piece of art isn't perfect in every way shape or form, there won't be good pieces of art anymore. only people pleasing piles of garbage. and just because something isn't as one thinks it should have been, doesn't make the creator a bigot, a hater or whatever colorful words we use for people we disagree with. plus from what I have seen, especially in the interview with linke and necrit he wanted to represent a strong emotional bond between men without sexual relationships. he never said anything about asexuality as far as I know? he wanted to show that people are more nuanced than "you're either acquaint or you're gay". I don't see bad intentions there.
@@maofone Nah, nah, nah, hell nah. Things either are or they aren't. Skip this "left up to interpretation" bullshit. If a person is gay then they ARE gay. If a person isn't gay then they AREN'T gay. Wishful thinking and other people's imaginations don't factor into the reality of one's true disposition. There's nothing to "interpret". Did Jinx kill Silco? Well, my "interpretation" is that she sent him on a peaceful journey into the void. NO, she merc'd him for almost killing her sister. Things are what they are. Jayce and Viktor are two HETEROSEXUAL MEN who just happened to be incredibly close friends and work partners. Just because two men have a close bonding relationship doesn't mean they're gay. Like you said, Linke only said that asexual shit to get them off his back. This rancid spawn of Tumblr generation disgusts me to my core. They want everything to be the way they want it to be, even if they have to reshape it into something else. People "shipping" (anybody really) but especially characters like Jayce and Viktor who aren't what they wish they were is LITERALLY no different than a parent not being able to accept that their kid isn't straight. It's the same exact thing. And at the end of the day the only person who's going to get disappointed is the one living in fantasy land instead of reality.
I'm asexual, and I think Viktor is great representation. He didn't suddenly become asexual after he had relinquished his emotion; the show implied he hadn’t been picking up on Sky's clues even before that. Rather, he pursued his research instead of romantic or sexual relationships. On the other hand, I do believe that the portrayal of his relationship with Jayce was ambiguous - somewhere between platonic and homoromantic - regardless of whether this is what the writers intended in their script.
I really like the reading that their relationship is ambiguous because it sets it up as a nice foil to Vi's relationship with Caitlyn and Jinx/Powder. Arcane is set up around dualism, and Arcane sets up this sort of unconventional 'love triangle' between Vi/Jinx/Cait that is paralleled in various ways with Victor and Jayce. Which is pretty cool, because it means you can read it either way
Yeah I also got ace vibes from him. Even in his weird celestial mind palace where he hangs out with Skye, there’s nothing romantic happening between them. (She’s most likely a figment of his imagination and not really there) I think it was only Skye that had feelings for Viktor.
I completely agree with this comment. I love all the jayvik content of course, although I personally (as an asexual) view their relationship like you said - between platonic and romantic. Something like a Queer-platonic relationship which blurs the lines of friendship and romantic partners. I see Viktor as somewhere on the asexual spectrum, but romantically attracted to the same gender :)
I said it in another comment, but linke said in an interview he wanted to represent a deep bond between men that's not labeled as homosexual or sexual in any way shape or form. I feel like that should have sparked an understanding for men who love each other don't feel attracted to each other. I feel like that's something we don't let men have enough in our society
People dont understand why there is a bitter taste to arcane. Maybe it is a taste they never had. Maybe a taste that should be explored. More than just a masterpiece.
@@ParacetamolecitoNo it doesn't, a truly heartfelt, emotional and in depth platonic relationship between males isn't really shown in media very often. I think this really makes the relationship very beautiful.
@tobiashaurum3611 I mean sure you do and think whatever you want, I'm more like why would anyone care they are called gay by the shippers? Some are annoying yeah but like whatever, also true deep male friendships aren't that explored, at least not where both are vulnerable and close but that's also due to homophobia and sexism like damn let boys hug and cry
I don't think that's true. Something just felt more free spirited about it. I just don't touch the back of my friends necks. Noone ever thought turk and jd were gay from scrubs and they were much closer. There is just a level of intimacy you usually don't have with touching we have with eachother.
I think it would be more correct if Christian said something like "Jayvik is not canon, because we never intended that. But if you have it as a headcanon, that's fine."
feel like most of it is yeah, just teenagers that love the drama and live expressing themselves to the internet. I dont think they think about the consequences, they're just goofin around like they do with any friend screaming about the things they dont like. But since arcane is so big, it gets out of proportion.
Can't we have something nice without reducing characters to their sexuallity nowadays? I think it's just disrespectful to characters that have so much to offer. It pisses me off that people think they are entitled to somebody else's work and attack him for not being what they want...
As a writer myself, I stand with Christian Linke on this. The fact is people are too damn sensitive and think everything is an attack against them specifically. Surprise surprise, not everything is about you. So he wrote Jayce and Viktor to be platonic, well that is how he wrote it. Sure, you are free to head-canon whatever you want, but it won't change how it was written or intended. Furthermore, just because he chose to write them as friends and brothers doesn't mean he's homophobic. Shippers used to be more casual about their shipping, now everything has gotten super aggressive for some reason. People need to calm the hell down and stop yelling for perceived slights. Sure, the pacing wasn't fantastic and I did want to see more, but I understand the limitations and constraints of the show. I just hope we get to see some of these characters in later shows. S.S.
Pacing in season 2 would not have been a problem if they chose not to include Ambessa and her storyline in Season 1. I've been saying this after season 1 ended. The Noxian plot will ruin season 2. Season 2 carried the baggage Season 1 cannot. This is why in my opinion, Season 2 is a better story told
@@CzarsSalad Oh I rather enjoyed both seasons and the show as a whole. However, I can see how it felt a bit, overstuffed. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to tell the story you want and you have to rush to plot points in order to make the desired cut. S.S.
Shipping as a culture needs to be humbled or dismantled entirely. These select group of people believe they have the right to dictate a show even if the creators state otherwise. It’s years after years of ignorance and intolerance that has stemmed this problem. You won’t get everything you desire, nor are you entitled or deserving of so. This controversy proves that that lesson needs to be taught a lot more severely
@theultimate6542 Literally. Don't forget that shipping in some communities have ships that are downright not only immoral, but *completely illegal too* to the point you'd be perceived as a pdf because of the ship you made. That's why I never pop my head into communities anymore. The most I ever do is "good show/movie/game", and that's it.
@@blacktigerpaw1bad ending? Can’t just label as bad because you wanted more. The quality like animation, action, emotion was all great we just could have had more. If that’s classed as a bad ending then idk what is good anymore 😂
The ending was rushed and simplified the conflicts in extreme ways, the character arcs were half-done, and they skipped over a lot of emotional beats because of the time-crunch. @@evangingerson1271
I don't understand how people can go to him and try and tell HIM who HIS own characters are. Like what?? As a writer I would get annoyed if someone came to me telling me how my characters should act or who they are, I'M THE ONE WHO CREATED THEM, how are you going to tell me how I should make them.
I do think people are being far too aggressive about it, however, there is such a thing as personal interpretation and death of the author. Jayce and Viktor's relationship is beautiful and deep and amazing, which can make it very open to be interpreted in different ways. As someone who has personally shipped JayVik since s1 e2, I loved their relationship. But I also completely respect not wanting to read it as romantic. The other thing is death of the author; if a media/story has come to an end unfortunately you can't add things retroactively. If you have to go to an outside source like twitter it can't logically be considered cannon, just another fan headcannon (because you can 100% be a fan of your own work). Quoting the google definition of "death of the author" it is an argument against "traditional literary criticism's practice of relying on the intentions...of an author to definitively explain the 'ultimate meaning' of a text. The theory suggests that once a text is published, it takes on a life of its own and becomes open to interpretation by readers" I do think Viktor being ace is cool! (I personally always pictured him as Demisexual, which is a part of the ace spectrum) However, I don't think it should be used as like some back-pocket defense card to shut down a relationship you didn't intend.
As an asexual, I’m actually glad Viktor is confirmed ace. I always got ace vibes from him. I didn’t get the impression that Viktor was some cold unfeeling robot. He’s extremely empathetic throughout the show, and his actions are reinforced by his empathy towards the citizens of Zaun and wanting to give them better lives. The shippers need to back off. So many fandoms get tainted by shipping wars. It’s so childish.
you can see him and jayce split as he pursues his academic studies while jayce life becomes muddled with romance and other ambitions. he never seemed interested in finding more. he always had one pursuit. a drive to do good. i kind of wonder if it’s why skye says “no you won’t” when viktor tells her he’ll miss their talks. i never felt like i could really imagine him being romantic
this is such an interesting video. you have some incredibly good points. i am a sapphic asexual and a jayvik shipper. in my honest opinion, both jayvik shippers and anti-jayvik shippers have been vilifying each other and Christian Linke far too much. while i wish Christian avoided the "disabled asexual" trope, the amount of jayvik shippers calling him homophobic/acephobic seems extreme as bigotry is a serious and sensitive topic and shouldn't be applied so easily. jayvik fans need to stop discrediting his talents and intentions, as disappointing as not having a ship canon can be. the canon is canon, and if you don't like that part of the media, you don't have to engage so seriously with that aspect of it. equally, i wish people who didn't see jayvik as romantic to leave the shippers alone. the worst thing you can do with shipping is glorify an abuse dynamic (ex: child x parent) or lack the media illiteracy to properly represent the characters in the dynamic. the whole point of their dynamic is that they love each other in every way that matters. people ship jayvik for their own unique reasons, and it would be dismissive to reduce the nuance of fandom behavior to "male friendships cannot exist these days without being gay!!" or something similar. making them romantic, platonic, or familial wouldnt actually erase the complexity of their dynamic. they will care for each other no matter how they see each other, and that is the most important part of their relationship. fandom is meant to be a community where people can collectively enjoy an interest in something. if the creators don't like the same ideas as their fans do for the story, then that is up to them. equally if the fans dont like the same ideas the creator has for their story, that is also up to them. i wish we could respect each other in fanbases
If you've been on Twitter you'll see there is no nuance. They automatically see Viktor as gay and even call him a f*g unironically. They're vilified for a reason, and it's solely due to their behavior. You also haven't seen how they react to multi shippers who include Mel. They get "visceral reactions" when black women get involved.
@@blacktigerpaw1 omg i HATE the way people treat mel. you have an important argument to make when it comes to the way people treat here. people either treat her as if she is a saint or a demon, when she is morally gray like every other character. in fact, she is more like jayce or viktor in which she tries to do her best, albeit through some unethical ways, but she ultimately wants peace for the city she cares about and love from her mother. it feels like misogynoir for her to receive less nuance than other morally gray characters (edit: i rewatched arcane season 2, and i feel like mel is more like silco than viktor or jayce but less aggressive. now its even stranger to me because silco is beloved and treated with nuance by the fanbase while mel is not) even with terrible fandom behavior (which as a jayvik shipper i feel ashamed of), i dont think vilifying shippers will solve the issue. even if many shippers can be toxic, you shouldnt hate on them for solely being a shipper anyway. the issue is a lack of fandom etiquette, not the fact they ship jayvik as a whole. nonetheless, your argument is sensible. thank you for sharing your thoughts. it was quite thoughtful!
@@plato_IVthe misogynoir that comes thru when gay ships get involved is insane. Mel is constantly turned into a 2D evil character for ppl to throw stones at despite the fact that all three of them are very similarly morally gray with clearly depicted intentions and reasonings behind their actions. Mel is one of my all time favorite characters and the way she is constantly insulted and mischaracterized is insane and makes me want to like crawl out of my skin. I understand some people’s perspectives, with Mel reminding them of their own corrupt politicians in their counties, and how that might make them dislike her as a character, but the way people completely disregard what makes her character who she is in order to demonize her is insane. GOD I hate the internet sometimes. Anyways. It’s also insane because Mel and Viktor are genuinely so similar 😭😭😭 I’ve also seen a rise of people claiming Jayce is like gay and not interested in women and calling Mel his beard and I feel like that completely undermines so much of his character??? Let men be bisexual 2024??? It makes sense for Jayce to be bi and it’s stupid to call Mel a beard or Jayce a DL especially because sexuality is so free in runeterra… anyway in conclusion I love you Mel and I wouldn’t have left you to cosmically intertwine with my situationship.
Honestly I think that people holding on to them being gay even when told otherwise is alot more problematic. Close platonic relationships of men to this degree are hardly ever explored and honestly its rather insulting that every time it happens they riot for the creator to make them gay
Imagine, just imagine the day 2 very close friends, mAYBE EVEN BOTH GAY, are just that, incredibly important friends. Like, gay people can also be friends. Like 2 heterosexual people can be friends. But i've never seen that, its crazy. maybe i haven't looked hard enough though
Close platonic relationships of men are the basis of a huge amount of media. I’m not saying you can’t see them as platonic but to say it’s problematic to read into the blatantly homo romantic subtext is just untrue? A huge portion of the animators shipped jayvik and it shows in the animation and their body language, not to mention the sheer number of caitvi and timebomb parallels. The beauty of Jayce and Viktors relationship is the ambiguity and the fact that it doesn’t matter what kind of love they have for eachother, whether it be romantic or platonic or both or neither or some secret third or fourth or fifth thing, because they would still act as they do towards eachother. My personal belief is that putting any sort of label on the relationship that the two of them has is an injustice, and frankly simply tries to quantify and define a type of love that is undefinable and infinite. Anyway sorry for the yappathon in ur replies !! :3
Oh but I do agree that harassing the creator over this is stupid because the ambiguity is kind of the point. He def could’ve worded what he said better and I def see it as a little problematic that he chooses to only NOW mention Viktor being asexual (coming from someone who is on the aroace spectrum and had HC Viktor as aroace since s1)
Close platonic male relationship is the DEFAULT of every media. People really need to stop saying it's never explored. Here's a handful of some of the most well known male friendships: Sherlock and Watson. House and Wilson. Naruto and Sasuke. Harry and Ron. All popular characters of their shows who are straight (or maybe asexual) in canon. Have a close male friendship that partially defines their characters.
@@l.n.3372 it's still very much not explored in depth, 2/4 out of your example barely have any arcs centred around their realation I'm sorry that you don't have any good friends irl but some of us do and really enjoy seeing that in a show just stop with making everything gay literally every platonic friends are always shipped and that's ok but attacking creators over this shit is insane
I think the root problem is just shipping culture in general. For example, if you ship a lesbian character with a man ALL HELL BREAKS LOSE. But for some reason it’s okay to ship characters like Jayce and Viktor who are portrayed to have a BROTHERLY connection??? Especially when Jayce already has Mel. IMO, we either just let people ship whoever they want or if you want to criticise keep the same energy, don’t have double standards bruh.
Really calling him homophobic after he says he’ll give you an extended CaitVi sex (if everyone really wants that so bad) That’s like accusing him of being heterophobic for making Jayce gay
Im not trying to be homophobic, it’s just annoying how some people get so deeply offended when someone portrays their identity even SLIGHTLY negatively as if it’s directed at the whole queer community. Like for example, being offended by Viktor/Jayce not being gay (or more specifically by Christian denying it)
Isn't that like saying "I can't be anti M/M! Here's my proof: have a W/W extended scene!" He could have bias against gay male relationships while still having positive lesbian relationships in his show.
@@l.n.3372 You are right but this isnt the case here because he dosnt have an agenda against JayVik situation hes just pointing out the obvious and teenage girls are mad they cant have their yaoi of 2 hot dudes dicking each other down. Thats the whole drama.
As a JayVik shipper… it’s getting out of hand. I have a HEADCANON. But I’m fully aware they’re platonic, and I respect that. As someone with my own story and characters, I respect other creators more than the average person. I would be so upset if people tried to tell me how my own characters should behave, act, and who they SHOULD be instead of who they actually are. If the creator of a character says they’re platonic, then they’re platonic. There’s nothing wrong with having a head canon, but if you automatically expect it to be canon, you’ll only get faced with disappointment. They’re my favorite ship alongside Timebomb, but I fully understand they’re platonic, and that’s totally okay! I like their relationship regardless of what kind of relationship it is. This is why I try not to ship anymore because the shipping community is so so toxic… nowadays I usually gravitate towards canon ships (like Timebomb and CaitVi) bc it’s “safer” in a way. Occasionally I have a non canon one (like JayVik) but that’s what it is… non canon. And the sooner people accept that fact, the more at peace they’ll actually feel. Ship them on your terms in your head canon, but acknowledge that they’re not actually canon in the official story. (Admittedly though, that last scene with them was kinda gay lol. I keep trying to see it platonically but my brain won’t allow me to. Other than that though, I can interpret it as both.)
Thank you for having a brain. I used to be the same with Ekko and Jinx in season 1. I know they are canon now but I shipped them in season 1 knowing they could never end up togheter because they are....well trying to kill each other. So i just accepted it and moved on. I didnt go attacking the author when he confirms the obvious because it dosnt fit my agenda. Im glad theres people like that with this situation as well.
@@K_Petar (sorry this is long as hell) yep. Exactly. I understand where people are coming from because it always sucks when you really like a ship and it doesn't happen. I get it. I'd be a total liar if I said I wasn't at least a little bit let down since I like the ship too, but I'm not surprised by it either. I actually would've been insanely surprised if it happened. So I like the ship, but I never actually expected it to happen because it seemed pretty unlikely anyway. I understand people's feelings, but there's a difference between being silently a little sad for a while and then harassing the creator just because he didn't give people exactly what they wanted. Like the ship? Cool! Don't like the ship? Cool! But lashing out is a whole other issue. I think both sides kind of suck. People adore coming under JayVik videos and posts and going on rants about "why can't people just be friends anymore??" (they don't say that about the other ships though), but the shippers are equally as irritating because they ALSO get pissy when people disagree with them. The best thing for me to do is stay away from comment sections lol
As a non Jayvik shipper, I also agree. I don’t like how other non Jayvik shippers (the homophobic ones, mostly) assume that Jayvik shippers will ship ANY and EVERY man together. It’s overgeneralizing and close minded. Of course, there will always be those fans who will ship any two men they can find to the point of fetishization, but that’s a very small amount of people and you’re better off just ignoring them.
This is why I hate the shipping community. Linke makes this story, he has Jayce and Viktor be parallels and brother figures, and because some people want it to be a gay romance they attack him for not gratifying their fantasy? Show some respect geez.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying a ship, though we shouldn't try to force our views onto others. Arcane is an animated series that's pure fiction, so let's remember that when having fun discussing the characters.
To be honest I feel sorry for Christian, you can’t please everyone when you put something out there for the whole world to see. However, I mainly feel bad for him because he has to deal with twitter mob, most of them are unhinged and unrealistic with there criticism. Like you said: criticism is a healthy thing for things to grow but too much negative and unrealistic criticism comes off as ungrateful. I may have my issues with the 3rd act of season 2 but I still love what was given to us, let alone we even have it at all to begin with.
Personally, as someone who is asexual, I thought it was pretty offensive that in all those years, it was never once talked about or stated that Viktor is asexual, and then the second that people start to ship Jayce and Viktor together he threw that out there as some sort of shield against shippers. I don't even care if making Viktor asexual is a pretty lazy stereotype, but it makes no sense to go "they can't have romantic feelings for eachother" since that is aromantic, not asexual. The way he is going about it just seems distasteful and a bit ignorant. I think it's also pretty funny to watch everyone else who worked on Arcane ship them together, except for him💀
That’s what everyone is upset about? There are actual core issues with season 2 more specifically the ending that should be getting attention and critiqued, not everyone crying that 2 guys that show each other love isn’t romantic 🤦♀️
Factssss like let’s focus on the biggg issue which is how this show was cut short. And it was not “intended to be two season” creator lie all the time due to the higher ups. I’m pretty sure they wanted it to be 3/5 seasons but something up the ladder said no, and this is why we got a very fun but weird season two.
@ ageed, honestly I don’t know why they would cut a very successful show off short like they did but for whatever reason they messed up and made fans mad in the process which is something you definitely don’t want when that’s where your chichang 💵 comes from, but we are taking matters into are own hands and rewriting and animating the end of season 2
i scrounged through his replies once i learned that the dude was actually going around answering questions didnt actually find much actual hatred thrown at them, but i did find badly worded criticism (even some that was adressed directly by him with the critic then sort of apologising for being rude) idk, this whole controversy seems exaggerated? it's twitter, you can find people angry about everything there's even people calling the show woke cause cait/vi didnt have huge tits in their sex scene or something like that
Great video I agree with all your takes here Arcane season 2 hate must stop it was soooooooooo good I truly don't understand why people hate on it every character arc ended amazingly well and they also digged in to more special things
Listen, as much as I like to lean into the queer interpretations of Jayce and Viktor and like to joke that they’re definitely boyfriends, I think this whole backlash is really just a stark example of how incapable we as a western society are of seeing two male characters being loving and vulnerable and physically close with each other and still be entirely platonic, and I think that in and of itself is a huge problem. It’s part of the puzzle of why so many straight men feel they can’t have deep relationships with other men without fear of being misinterpreted and misunderstood (it’s not just internalized homophobia, it’s just the power of peer expectation and that being misunderstood hurts us), and this is deeply troubling. It’s fun to headcanon these characters as gay, but there honestly should be nothing wrong in stating that they are, in fact, not gay (for each other) and that should be entirely inoffensive. I can’t even agree with the theory that Fortiche may have decided to make scenes with them “more fruity” because are we forgetting Fortiche is a French studio?? They’re not afraid of depicting straight men being physically close. Nothing has to be read further into it. And as an Ace myself, I also can’t agree that saying Viktor is ace is somehow bad representation for supposedly leaning into an “aces are unfeeling robots” stereotype. I frankly didn’t know that was even an ace stereotype to begin with. On top of that I think that interpretation is a very shallow reading of Viktor’s arc and lacks some much needed nuance and a deeper understanding of his motivations in the first place, as his being ace doesn’t have to have anything to do with his slowly losing his sense of humanity for the sake of ending people’s suffering, something he wanted to do precisely because he is incredibly empathetic and wants to help people. And is it not a POSITIVE spin on this supposed trope for him to be reminded by his platonic soulmate (because yes I do believe they were definitely soulmates of a kind) of all the ways his flaws and his humanity made him beautiful?? And how that is what reached him in the end??? That seems like nothing but good representation to me. I was in the arcane Reddit the other day reading a thread on Viktor being confirmed as Ace and the people over there pretty much only talked of it positively. I dunno, a lot of this criticism seems to be lacking in nuance and media literacy, but people’s projections are a very powerful thing that take hold of them, especially when they feel like they should have some kind of control over the narrative, as if only they decide what is true and correct about a show they did not write only because enough people agree with their takes. It’s really sad.
Hello from an alloromantic ace! (asexual person who still feels romantic attraction for those who don't know) Here is what I have to say, personally. I don't think Christian Linke was trying to be ignorant here. What I do believe is that he might not be educated that much on asexuality. As we, the ace community, very often try to explain: there is a difference between sexual attraction and romantic attraction: it does not go hand in hand for us like for allosexual (non asexual) people. Not to mention there are different levels of comfort when it comes to certain things in romantic relationships. What he seems to mean to me is that Viktor is aro/ace (aromantic and asexual, so feeling little to no romantic attraction as well). He did mention that other people on the team told him about how asexuality is often paired to emotionlessness. I believe that is true. Often, asexuality is represented inaccurately in media. I don't think that was his intention if he took that into account. Do I think Viktor's representation was a good idea? It was fine to me. But as the other ace voice in the video said: he mildly follows the stereotype in some ways. Viktor is still a human, of course, but this magic/robotic transformation thing does unfortunately make it similar to me (probably unintentionally so. Keep that in mind. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.) I think that there would've been better options for ace representation in the cast. What I think they could've done is have him as well as an other character be ace. This way you don't have the one ace character be the robot hextech god. You have an other one who's a normal human, possibly an alloromantic. I know for sure that if they know enough about asexuality, they could do wonders representing it. Have an ace person on the team be a voice of advice for them. What I wouldn't give for an alloromantic ace who's involved in a main ship and navigating it the way they feel most comfortable with! Or just clearer representation than we got with Viktor. Have the theme be explored! I'd LOVE it!
Thank you for your statement! Ik RUclips chat is pretty biased but I wanted to give both sides a fair argument cuz there is wrong on both sides. In the topic of asexual representation, I would've loved them keeping main jinx ace since that take would be a lot more interesting but it looks like that's not the case from the artbook
@@maofone YES. I always interpreted Jinx as ace. Probably demiromantic as well. She still loves Ekko, but just romantically and because they know each other since they're children. I still headcanon her that way in Arcane. :) She just doesn't give the vibe that she feels sexual attraction to me. But romantic attraction under certain circumstances? I totally buy it.
Personally I can separate cannon and head-cannon's rather easily. In cannon I think they're deeply close friends, told in a beautiful way that transcends just a romantic or sexual relationship. But I could also see them in another universe as a budding couple and I can enjoy that too, to me it's just as beautiful to envision! It could be easy to read what he said in bad faith, and sometimes I'm like "so two close women can be a couple but not men?" But I'm not going to assume someone's hypocrisy with no evidence, and I'm not going to utterly demonise someone who's just being open about their creative process or opinions on writing. Viktor could be biromantic, asexual, demisexual, graysexual, aroace-- whatever! I'll still love his character and his personality. Sides thoughts! heheh it's lowkey funny timing with viktor mains being angry over his 'twinkification'! Not really beating the allegations there ey Vik? Also, I think fortiche staff are silently for shipping them by the sounds of it, maybe that's why he was extra touchy about it. I think it's VERY funny though!
@@blacktigerpaw1 Yeah I actually have some thoughts on that! I compared the league of legends vgu (splash art and in-game model) to the Viktor in Arcane, and the proportions are actually quite different. In arcane, he has a bulky chest, while the bottom half is more skeletal. While in the game, he's been given very human, skinny proportions. He still wouldn't be like what he used to be of course, which I'm split on, but I think he'd have been received somewhat better if they went with the shows version. Instead they've kinda landed somewhere close to the show but not really. I truly hope they fix up his model and splashart sometime. I think they've done this because they'll have future plans for more human models.
All I gotta say is 1.) He likely had to give his ok on any and all scenes in the final product so he obviously knew that some people would come to the conclusion that JayVik is a thing so obviously he’s not homophobic or else the scenes would’ve been different. And 2.) The amount of people saying things like he should just step away from the project or that he isn’t needed for Arcane is ridiculous, Link literally the only reason we even have the show in the first place… express your criticisms but don’t be silly.
I'll say a quote from one of my favorite creators, "people need to learn to care about gay ships that aren't men." In literally every form of media, including the one the creator I'm quoting made, if there is a sapphic relationship, but no mlm ones, people go crazy. They can't handle the idea that sapphic rep is good enough, or that it's _there_. So blatantly often sapphic representation gets pushed aside for people's yaoi fantasies. Look at what happened with Voltron for gods' sake, as much as I'd like to say its not about them being gay, you know damn well it is. I personally do admit I also like the ship, for all the uses of the word "partner" and them seemingly being unable to go alone, but like. I have other canon relationships to focus on. I don't need to find every possible way to twist or justify them being together, I don't have to attack creators, and can guarantee most people who are attacking them are either gay men who aren't satisfied by sapphic rep or straight yaoi obsessed girls. (you would genuinely be surprised the amount of gay men who can be lesbianphobic and get pissy there's women kissing but no men kissing and get away with it.)
It's the fact a lot of them despise Mel and honestly sound like white nationalists. One said they got a "visceral reaction" to the MelJayVik ship, because to them, Viktor and Jayce aren't into women. Know that meme of Adam Driver yelling after that guy in Black KKKlansman? That's them .
idk what else to say guys im so fvcking tired of the negativity around this season, yeah it was flawed blablabla we get it yeah you ship this and that blablabla we get itttt just stooooooop, i swear the one thing i always loved about this fandom was how calm and nice it was. but now it almost feels like if the hazbin hotel fandom infiltrated ours 💀
What's funny is with the final volume of My Hero Academia being leaked, this feels very much like THAT discourse that a gay fan ship wasn't made canon and the fans are crying and attacking the creator.
Yeah seeing negativity from fandoms regarding media that I like always drags my mood down so I just try to avoid it when I can. There will never be something that pleases everyone, so popular content will never avoid getting hate no matter how good it is.
They made us invest in the first season with competent characters and writing. Only to get rid of all their writers Christian can't write he got told so after the first review of arcane by riotgames themselves. Then he hired 9 different writers who did the first season but for some reason shrunk the writers room for season two to just three people leaving Christan, Alex and amanda. There are many valid reasons why people are upset with arcanes creator at the moment. For me this is one of them.
@@maofone Amanda was on a watchparty on a youtube channel, at 1 hour and 30 mins (i will time stamp it) she talks about the writers room situation. ruclips.net/user/livebgpWJl1NuTE?si=m8IG73XWmIu-S-y2&t=5406
As a gay dude, I prefer gay relationships in media to be CANON and explicit. I honestly didn't get any romantic coding (explicit or subtextual) from Jayce and Viktor so I never expected anything. I think expecting a relationship out of something that was never coded that way is unfair, especially over a show that has CANONICAL QUEER relationships in the show and will almost certainly have more in future projects. The creators of ARCANE are definitely not homophonic and it's crazy to have to defend that considering how much they've pushed representation already. Jayce and Viktor's relationship reminds me exactly of how Wicked portrays Glinda and Elphaba. Wicked is fundamentally a story about the friendship/enemy dynamic of two women, but because so much of the narrative core is focused on the two of them and how much they feel about eachother, it's hard not to see that as romantic. Arcane tells a story about the friendship/enemy dynamic of Jayce and Viktor while making the stakes of the narrative ultimately revolve around their relationship. It has the same awkward effect. While I enjoy Jayvik as a ship, I only ever see it as a fun alternate canon to what I know the show was going for, and I only ever saw them as friends in the show.
Nah I think this one is completely different. Christian right now is getting attracted over deranged shippers who have problems differentiating reality form fiction, while Isamya was getting criticism due to how shit the ending to AoT was. And I do think that Christian should be criticised for the many issues with Season 2 of Arcane, it just baffles me that he's being assaulted for such a dumb reason instead of for what he actually should be.
Hes been annoying but also jayvik fans are being annoying, the only thing i didnt like was the fact that he suddenly made viktor ace just so he can stop people from shipping
@@NoFoCuS it was definitely written that was from the start but the way he brought it up is a bit problematic. If I make a mistake and people hate on my for misinterpreting that's my fault in presentation.
He is clearly trying to appease people . If the S2 has too many critics maybe he would lose his partnership with Riot . The difference between S1 and S2 is too big he must have been pressured in a way or another , they used S2 to tease about Noxus more than to resolve the issue between Pilltover and Zaun etc...
Yes litteraly felt like a set up for Noxus or something else. Sometimes it didn’t feel like the end of the show/or the focus of it. Especially act 3. But it’s probably due to the shorten run time.
I was beyond surprised so many people found their relationship in the end as gay. It was pretty obvious they just had a close platonic bond, that is very much possible between two men. I found it as a parallel to Jinx and Vi affection as sisters. I never got the hint of romance between their bond. I feel like people trying to connect genuine affection between two characters as a romance may not really understand the nuance between different bonds and connections between others. Also as terms to sexuality, Jayce never striked me as gay. And Victor I believe from the creator was termed as asexual, which I could defiantly see.
I think you’re onto something. These people lack empathy and understanding. The only meaningful relationships, in their minds, are ones they look like theirs
I ship Jayvik and don't care what Christian said (I've been obsessed with them for a week (and still am)). I think fans should focus on other problems with season 2 (like it was rushed for example) Edit: I love Asexual Homoromantic Viktor and Bisexual Jayce
I think the story needed more time. the fast pacing was not a problem but I feel like we missed a lot of things we can't just deduce. Viktor is not shown being ace, or not enough, so Cristian Link saying he is after the fact is a bit cringe. But maybe I'm mistaken, it depends whether ace people recognized themselves in Victor.
This is like Luca and Alberto from the movie Luca, like guys chill, let them be amazingly close friends, these friendships are amazing and should reflect how deep friendships can go, wanting it to be gay can undermine the depth of the friendship. As a fellow Gay to you all, we will get gay characters dont worry, and dont be douches
Eughhh I’m kind of tryna stay away from commenting abt this discourse on the internet but I am a little mad about Christian linke only NOW coming out to talk about Viktor being aroace. Coming from an aroace person who has wholeheartedly believed Viktor to be on the aroace spectrum since s1 I hate that this is being used as a way to say that jayvik makes no sense and cannot happen because it shows that some ppl fundamentally do not understand what it means to be on the aroace spectrum. I’m annoyed that Christian linke only says something now, after creators have been tiptoeing around Viktors sexuality for a rlly long time, and it rlly does just seem like a convenient way to deny jayvik. I also do think it can be viewed as problematic that the only asexual character in the show is a disabled man who’s arc does heavily revolve around feeling unlovable for who he is rather than what he can make, and someone who does have an inferiority complex related to their disability and body. It seems like a cop out, and it sucks because disabled people in media are rarely depicted as sexy or like in tune with their sexuality. I’m not really explaining it well but it kind of just rubs me the wrong way idk if I’m making any sense.
I call them "the gayest straight men" as a joke, because i KNOW that BOTH of them are straight, their whole relationship just came off as a little gay in my eyes, but im not going to delude myself into thinking they're gay when they're obviously not.
I personally understand his reaction tho. As a writer, I imagine it can be frustrating that almost the entire fandom is misrepresenting your intentions. Of course, it's expected of a show as massive as arcane, but still, writing is such a personal experience, and you get so deep into these characters and dynamics, knowing stuff about them that is simply not available to the viewer/reader. The reaction might be a bit harsh at times, but I do really get it. I get jayvik, but really it's such a beautiful story of friendship and soulmates, that it really goes so far beyond"romantic" and "platonic". I feel as though people have taken these descriptive labels and made the prescriptive. If X does Y then they are Z. If A and B do C then they are D. These labels (including labels relating to identity) were created to describe reality, but now they are taken to be rules. But fiction exists in a world where these labels either don't exist or are different. I'm a person who never felt comfortable with the traditional labels and roles of our society, especially when it comes to identity. Gender, sexuality, all of it is very confusing. And at first I found comfort in labling those feelings - "non-binary", "queer", "asexual", they felt right. But then people started building a standard of identity around them. And when it no longer fit them, they would abandon ship and invent a new word; since, repeat, the cycle goes on. And that micromanaging of labels makes me almost equalas uncomfortable as being told to fit into the stereotypes of my birth sex, or a heterosexual identity. It just doesn't feel right. And the same goes for labeling relationships. "Homoerotic friendship", "situationship", "queerplatonic", god, it's a postmodern nightmare of symbols becoming so much more important than the real thing. And all discussion surrounding Arcane's (or any) characters' identities becomes a buzz. Viktor's not just "asexual" or "disabled" or "robotic" or "queer". He's Vikior. You don't have to put labels on him to see what he is - the show is RIGHT THERE. And, like, shipping is cool, its very fun at times, but if the creators said "yeah, they're gay", it wouldn't change the text. All that youan find is there already. You don't need validation or discouragement from a writer. Youan just analyse the text and come to your own conclusions. There is so much more to Arcane than all the buzzword bullshit, so much material to ACTUALLY analyze, so much that sits below the surface, even if at first it seems to be very blunt and lack subtext. And people choosing to just talk about the same stuff over and over again in new ways that say nothing new is so baffling to me. Anyways. Yeah.
I feel like the best reaction to this sort of situation I can think of off the top of my head is Mark Hamill saying, “if you see Luke as gay, of course he’s gay!” I honestly don’t know why so many creators get so squirrelly about things they didn’t necessarily intend as queer being read that way. Like, I can think of SO MANY properties that have all this queer rep or performers who play a queer character in another role but the SECOND people start reading gay into the thing that’s not explicitly stated to be so, it’s all “hey what’s with all the crazy people”. SO weird. Let people live. Nobody is going to die because people like the idea of these two particular dudes kissing (just don’t be a POS about the black girl while you’re at it). You weren’t advertising the show with sexy super cuts of Victor and Jayce. Nobody being normal about this property thinks you’re queerbaiting. ITS FINE. People still love Cait/Vi and the beautiful trans girl and all the other stuff you did for rep. You can ignore the 13 year old on Twitter. Also I’m…a little confused as to why Jayce and Victor having a little something going on with female characters would preclude them from being interested in one another??? Could they not be bi, or am I misunderstanding and the point was that no, Jayce has an established love interest and it’s another character?
And this is why i ended up switching to Tumblr 😭🤣 twitter and reddit got very toxic recently and there is a lot of unnecessary hate, some of them give off the vibe that they didn't even watch the show and are there just to hate on it.
man made a masterpeace that broke my soul. Dude is where he belongs. Enough said. What this dude has made is crazy. I've seen this dudes comments. He's just upfront. No BS... Why do people get mad at someone being honest?
I think his response to general criticisms of S2 have been a bit tone deaf, some people just don't take criticisms very well, which is fine. On the other hand the ace thing is a weird hill to die on
I’ve seen the whole “tone deaf” thing, but it’s really hard to say that when you know he’s getting thousands, probably millions of comments, dms, and criticisms. There’s a reason most show runners don’t interact with the fans like this.
hes not dying on no hill hes a man with a job to do and a life he cant be bothered pleasing horny teenage girls attacking him bcs their yaoi fantasy wasnt true. end of story
as much as i would love to defend the creator of my favourite show ever, i sadly can't. both christian and twitter are acting like children. i can understand christian's feelings about the whole jayvik situation, but i can also understand the fan's frustation when the creator doesn't allow open interpretations and is constantly telling people off. either way all this hate is just nonsense
I thought it was fun to head cannon ship jayce and Victor cause they genuinely would make a great pair. But having them have this close brotherly bond is also great and fits with the theme of sibling bonds in arcane. Silco and vander, jinx and vi, Victor and jayce, and even the cities themselves with piltover and zain being sister cities in lore.
i honestly totally understand where christian is coming from. his way of responding mightve been pretty backhanded. but if i were to be in his shoes, having millions of people coming for me on the internet, critisizing me for an unharmful statement i made about my show?? honestly, i wouldve reacted the same way. and whats funny to me, is how the people critisizing him wouldve also done the same thing since it is so clearly seen how they cant handle what christian said about jayvik properly and in a mature way. i am not a jayvik shipper either though i totally respect and love them. but the ones intervening in this situation rudely should NOT be talking. talking about lgbtq (asexual) inclusivity as an excuse to defend their argument. you already have it?? there is amazing trans and lesbian (sexual and romantical) representation in this show. is that not enough?? not EVERYTHING needs to be gay. why cant two guys have an extreme close friendship and bond without it being labelled as gay?? most of the people who are attacking christian for the writing when their own asses dont even know how to write😭😭. maybe leave these to the professionals?? if you truly know how to critisize and analyze shows, you should honestly know that the interactions between jayce and viktor are obviously platonic, in a realistic manner (but if you interpret them as romantic, its totally fine and acceptable). the way they were writen to be platonic is honestly amazing. its nice to see people writing platonic relationships between men where they can be vulnerable and emotional with each other because it is not seen that much nowadays since its labeled stereotypically for them to act "tough". also, i do not know how people are even shocked by christians tweets about jayvik being intentionally platonic when theyve called each other "brothers" several times throughout the show?? wouldnt it be weird to call your romantic partner a "brother"? just with this one clear argument, it literally backs up christians whole "jayvik is canon" statement. because how the hell can you oppose that, unless you are into incest or anything related to that??? in conclusion, christians opinion is totally valid, and so are the ones from jayvik shippers. though they couldve both handled it better. but linke had all rights to react and handle the situation that way. all the controversy and criticism started and came from the ones opposing his unharmful tweet. and from there, THAT is when christian started adding backhanded comments. so if it werent for the way they reacted to his confirmation, he wouldnt have made a comment with such tone.
As a bisexual who never really had too many friends, it always felt a bit gay to me when a friend cared about me or showed affection. But later on I realized that is just how friends work. Not everything is about sex, most things aren't about sex and most things shouldn't be about sex. As someone who plans on writing books, I would also get a bit offended, or just rather sad if a character, or scene was completely misinterpreted. But, at least I can say that stuff like shipping never hurt anyone. About Arcane, they delivered an amazing show, could we stop complaining?
I came here thinking it was about the cut Ekko and Powder content before the final battle my bad and good luck with your campaign. It never really occured to me cuz I thought he was getting down with Mel!😂
Pretty sad people have never had a best friend who you are as close to as a sibling, and who you would do almost anything for. Going to shipping ever relationship is just stupid.
Anyways I am also a little disappointed in the treatment of Vi this season as well as THAT caitvi scene as it also rubbed me the wrong way, especially with Amanda saying it was somehow vi “reclaiming her trauma” the entire dynamic between Caitlyn and vi feels very weird to me now because of it. I really wish that instead of paralleling their first meeting scene with the boomshakalaka in the prison cell (also weird because jinx had probably been peeing pooing and bleeding on the floor + food was rotting) they had had it parallel the moment when cait saved vi with the shimmer and then had it transition to paralleling their first bed scene. I think that anything the borders on romanticizing incarceration is awful because vi was in fact tortured by enforcers in a cell just like that one. Idk man I just thought it was a weird choice and I kept waiting for it to cut to them in bed or something 😭😭
This man has a great mind and is very protective of his work which I understand. Also if you watch the Necrit interview it's clear he has a lot of anxiety and he struggles to deal with bad reviews. I wish he received some of these comments more gracefully and will take some of the fans demands into consideration but even if he don't because they have a clear vision of where the show is going it's not a reason to send hate. The new show is already in production so there is not much they can learn from season 2.
Honestly as writer and a fan of many different things whos seen this pattern time and time again: fans are the worst and also terrifying in how they’ll lambast you publicly and you’re just supposed to take it, just because you said their ship isn’t intended as canon (I’m also a sapphic creator and the ridicule you get from some wlw fans if you don’t make perfect representation to them - which varies from person to person - is insane)
a thing that i think could be interesting is a mini series released by netflix of the behind the scenes with some explanations of why they things the way they did and also they could realease extended cuts of parts that werent in the show without compromising the ratings. its such a complex show that this could be a way to add more reasoning to the choices made throughout.
I agree. Hate is absolutely unnecessary. Also this writing was phenomenal. Hating it because your personal preferences weren't met is like being served an artfully created dish and hating it for one ingredient you personally don't like.
Hopefully extended version of that scene will be included as a deleted scene or incorporated into the actual episode for the bluray release! not sure if there are rules around saucy scenes like that for streaming services or just netflix in general like there are for TV
Really tired of people thinking a sexual relationship is a the pinnacle of how close people can become. Familial relationships, friendships can/are just as strong if not more and this strange insistence our society has to make everything sexual is kinda gross
Viktor is an aromantic ace. That should be enough for people. The whole "these two guys breathe around each other so they must be gay" routine is so tired and should have been left behind long ago.
The entire shipping community needs to be humbled or dismantled entirely. It’s become a cesspool of ignorance and squabble that generally affects the outcome of series. If the main head writer says something is so, that’s final. There’s no different types of interpretation because there is no interpretation without solid facts. What should be a time of celebrating the show, is instead now being destroyed and hated by a select group of individuals who can’t separate reality from fiction. This is a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed
People are very entitled when it comes to their ships and it's incredibly toxic. I don't know how anyone could call the team that gave us CaitVi homophobic. Ship whatever you want; hell, I ship Jayvik too. But that doesn't make you entitled to demand that canon bend to your preferences. Jaymel is right there and that's a good ship too, yet it gets less love, and I've even seen people hurl vitriol towards Mel just for getting in the way of Jayvik. It's so bizarre and unhinged. Loving, platonic, brotherly relationships between two male characters are healthy and need to be spotlighted more often, too.
For me, the most infuriating part is the perpetuation of the idea by many fans that two men being close = gay. Men can have platonic relationships, and these men have been written by the head show-writter to be platonic friends who are vulnerable with one another. I think it's a very beautiful friendship that's not often seen in media, especially between men. To ignore Jayce's relationship with Mel and to slander the show-writter for not writting direct confirmation in the show that Viktor is ace is just wild to me. As an ace person, I related to Viktor so much without a direct confirmation and read him as ace long before it was confirmed. To see so many people, even in this comment section write off asexuality because they can't percieve a world where platonic, healthy male friendships exist just makes me so sad for them.
I only had the problem with the placement of Vi and Cait scene doing it in right after seeing a depressed Suicidal Jinx, the other shippers trying to push their ideals on the shows that they didn’t make it is ridiculous just like people pushing Gwen for being trans cause she had a flag in her room like seriously stop ruining these characters with these ideals.
well this is fandom drama mining, i see youre getting your moneys worth and im contributing by adding comments for the algorithm god anyways, the fact that the main writer christian linke has an "explicit version" of caitvi on his hard drive is predictable as a straight guys being into lespprn but honestly is anyone surprised that he wouldnt ship jayvik? im sorry, do we need to pull out his other writing projects wherein he attempted to write female characters and how it could have easily landed him in that reddit thread about writing women poorly? (we're talking she breasted boobily levels) like yeah, a straight cis dude whose more down with lesbian sex and "just doesnt see men loving men" is a tale as old as time, why is anyone surprised? also cmon, straight dudes accidentally creating a huge "yaoi" fanbase is also a known phenomenon - are these fans new? from supernatural to death note to star trek, straight dudes making some pretty f great men on men homoerotica (as beloved by many none male, none straight fans) is also a tale as old as time in all those cases, no - the purported "men loving men" relationships are never going to be "canon" - it will never be the intent. but thats not going to devalue how the "yaoi" gets shipped. listen to your fandom elders, we've done this song and dance before, and we remain the oldest and most prolific fan creators without ships getting canonized (and believe me, you dont want straight cis dudes writing your yaois, as supernatural famously demonstrated - they will just mess it up)
I want to give a platform to both sides and did I wanted views I would just make an analysis especially coming off after season two. I think this is an important discussion about Christmas interactions with the community and I also wanted to defend the backlash he's getting. But yeah like with all drama stuff is overblown
This is why I dont engage with fandoms anymore. I’d rather like what I like and keep it to myself rather than arguing with immature people over fiction
This is the best show of the 2020’s! The only people complaining are LoL players! Who only care about lore and not actually if the change helps the show or not! The changes definitely helped create this masterpiece.
It doesn't matter if you are the writer , the fanbase will interpret things differently from what you have intended , and it is a fact I am trying to get used to as a writer especially with the type of fanbase I am targeting . If the fanbase wanted Viktor and Jayce to be gay , then let them be , you can't control what they think , fans have been doing that since online fan culture has emerged and no amount of arguing with them will stop it , instead , it will put you in a bad light as a writer , disrespecting the fans . Just don't ruin the party for fans , let them enjoy your work , even if that was not what you had in mind .
I don't think you can call this guy getting hate. A majority of the fandom isn't saying this. It's probably one or two insane people who care too much about shipping.
No, it's real. Maybe not majority, but reddit and twitter are all raging about it, calling him a homophobe and that he shouldn't have said they're just brothers
I think another thing worth considering is Riot's shaky past with mlm representation. There are quite a few wlw characters within the universe of Runeterra and a lot of them get to be romantic and even get to kiss in official media! But you'll have a very hard time finding the same treatment afforded to any mlm characters. K'Sante is introduced to us as someone who is separated from his lover and TF + Graves were not afforded the same kiss afforded to Leona and Diana. Even in the Varus music video we only get a forehead press. Typically wlw pairing are seen as more "palatable" to straight audiences to it's likely a situation where higher ups at riot are filtering out what the writers and illustrators can and cant publish (which they've been outed as doing, notably when they did not allow the writers to publish Taliyah as trans). The way they've represented mlm characters hasn't been bad at all in isolation, but you look at the contrast between how they represent wlw and it gets a bit sad... I'd also like to add that the argument of "why can't men just be close friends?" really only shows up during discussions of mlm ships. And let me tell you, it is not one league players are new to. This argument has come up time and time again even at the mere hint that two male characters might have had something more intimate than friendship. It came up for Twisted Fate and Graves, Udyr and Lee Sin, and now Jayce and Viktor and it won't be the last time this community has this discussion. The same people that argue this will never be saying this for an unnecessary straight ship and there are way more examples of writers forcing straight characters together with no prior chemistry just because they are the opposite gender. Honestly, this kind of stuff blows up like this around any big media or fandom that dares to attempt an mlm ship, it's disheartening and makes me lose hope that I'll ever get to see this type of representation because any hint of it gets aggressively bullied off of the platform. I just hope they don't restrict the writers from adding genuine mlm representation in the future, especially when the Bilgewater show finally comes out with Twisted Fate and Graves, I'd even settle for just a kiss.
I never even got the feeling about Victor that he had no emotions, just that they were heavily suppressed by the Arcane and himself. He thought that emotions would be holding back humanity in achieving "glorious evolution", so he decided to literary hide them behind a mask. Therefor, his perceived lack of emotion isn't even tied to his sexuality.
I Like the idea of real platonic love. Some friendships are like family. And that is also beautiful. Not everything has to be romantic. Love has so many aspects.
So.. the dude who planned everything, hell.. the dude who created the show itself.. explains something that some smartbumm somehow can’t understand.. getting backlash from these smartbumm while there’s a whole lex sesbian scene in the show that dude created..
It's really just a "what about me?" thing. Babies complaining about everything who should stick to fanfiction instead of watching a story canon to the game universe. I'm sure they can't watch Lord of the Rings without shipping Sam and Frodo and if Tolkien was still alive he'd be labeled as a homophobic for not putting them together. If they keep attacking the creators, they'll end up refusing to work on more projects because of that undeserved hate. The writers did a fantastic job with Jayce and Viktor
i hate how any strong bond between 2 characters (especially male) means that they love each other romantically. men are basically never allowed to express compassion to each other without having the label gay be tossed at them. i actually found jace and victor's relationship really cute and refreshing, because it shows what male platonic relationships can look like outside of traditional expectations of masculinity
Okay long rant session, and read through before attacking me. If you think Season 2 is anywhere close to the mastery of Season 1 in terms of writing, character arcs, and agency, then I'm afraid I don't know what to say. Christain has received rightful criticism for his choice of words and general disregard for the main plotline. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Arcane and Caitvi, I mean I spent 2 years obsessing and waiting for S2 so I think I'm allowed to be upset they promised so many things and... didn't deliver it. Firstly, arcane was sold and marketed as the story between 2 sisters, Vi and Jinx. They set up the oppressive conflict between Zaun and Piltover beautifully in S1, handling difficult topics like PTSD, BPD, family, privilege, etc. They even marketed S2 as being the peak of the Zaun and Piltover conflict where Zaun finally gets its long overdue apology from Piltover showcasing things like "You can rally the undercity", "you are a symbol", etc, and then all of this just gets pushed aside completely in the final act because we need to find magical demons and noxus. Piltover gave no apology for gassing and oppressing Zaunites for months but immediately asked for help from Zaunites, even asking them to put on enforcer uniforms. Even after the war, we don't see any active reforms going on, just Sevika got a seat in the council (and mind you there are still like 6 pilties and 1 Zaunite so not even fair). So my point is that if they didn't intend to resolve the two cities' oppressive nature, they shouldn't have marketed the story of arcane as such. For a story about two sisters, we sure didn't see any proper talk or reconciliation between them. Secondly, Vi's arc. Imagine the main writer saying they just wanted to focus on other characters instead of the main character cuz they didn't know what to do for her arc. I know Christain wrote about her supposed "conflicts" but they're not even close to real conflicts and she had absolutely no agency this season. In s1 Vi and Jinx had been the main plot drivers, all of their actions and decisions directly affected the plot. (Vi choosing to raid Jayce's apt, Vi deciding to turn herself in, Vi going to save Vander, Vi ditching Cait & going after Sevika). In this season she had nothing. Vi didn't accept the badge, she was basically guilt-ridden into it, Vi confronted Cait but that didn't affect the plot at all (We saw Vi spiraling cuz of the fight but Cait had no visible plotline from it), Vi decided to free Jinx was also planned by Cait so again goes into her agency. The only reason agency she had was deciding to grieve Vander at the end, which resulted in their deaths. So yes I would people are rightfully pissed at the main character being kicked to the side to develop other characters. Thirdly, Caitlyn. She was & is my favorite character & I was so excited to see the dark cait and her redemption arc that the writers kept talking about. Imagine my surprise when we literally didn't get any actual redemption arc or apology. Even if they didn't show cait apologizing for gassing the undercity, she at least should've verbally apologized for HITTING Vi before they got together. I understand microexperssions & know that her letting go of Jinx was supposed to her "redemption" but those two actions cannot cancel each other out. People accusing of her being a fascist is too far IMO, since the main player for ambessa but I cant blame since technically Caitlyn just got away with everything didn't she? They deserve to be together Caitvi,and I'm SO happy that they didn't fall into the bury your gays trope but GAWD was even a sorry too much to ask for instead of microexpressions. I'm MAD they messed up the character arc of one my fav characters and if they didn't plan a redemption they shouldn't have made her done something that needed redemption. I have a lot more but this is getting too long. So I'll just name them, Hexcore storyline had way too much time, what was the point of Isha? Jinx deciding to break the cycle even tho she didn't create the cycle, I didn't like the implication of them writing that if you are mentally ill the only way is to walk away like???/ CAITVI sex scene in prison..., Not enough focus on Mel's storyline since Black rose is such a powerful and important organization, Ekko and Vi didn't even talk once. As much as I have gripes with the writers (btw they fired a bunch of the writers from S1, it went from like 13 to 6 so that explains the poorly connected writing) I LOVE LOVE LOVE THE ANIMATION. They really absolutely slayed, ate, and devoured this season. No praise is enough for the Fortiche cuz they honestly outdid themselves this season.
I just want an arcane special where urgot take over zaun's crime syndicate forcing cait and vi seeking jinx while their child being manipulated by urgot
As an aroace I saw Viktor since the beginning as ace coded. I really don't know how some people argue that Viktor was in love romantically with Sky cuz... Have you seen the interactions between those two? Viktor was always more focused on his work, in his relationship with Jayce as partners/brothers/platonic soulmates idk, in sleeping in the lab. The thing is that the clues were there. Oh and also, Viktor always calls her "Miss Young", like adressing a dearly beloved co-worker, even inside that pocket dimension of his.
It's annoying when you can't ship things in your little corner of the fandom peacefully bc the creator says something that makes all these (not always but often homophobic) dudebros comment under every single jayvik art and post about how "they are just brothers you people are weird" I never saw comments like these around s1 and now every platform is full of them. Everyone is acting like shippers have a problem with close platonic male relationships but let me ask this, why is them being queer or queer platonic cheapens their connection in the eyes of these people? - everyone can guess why. All these people always going "why can't two dudes just be friends?“ as if people are drowning in canon gay representation....or what shippers who ship non canon relationships think has to affect them at all in any ways. You can just mute the ship tag and then you will not see the bigger chunk of shipping content that's properly tagged. People who are angry at shippers over shipping jayvik are just as insane as the weirdos who completely disregard caitvi as good representation. People seem to forge tthat it's possible to just hang out in the fandom with like minded people instead of always agitating people who see things differently. I never care about canon bc shipping and fandom is not about canon. That's what the show is for. Fandom is about exploring things not explored in canon too amongst other things. Also as an ace I'm tired of people who don't even understand how ace people work use asexuality as an excuse to be homophobic. It's also pretty interesting how mentions of Viktor being ace from the creator where nowhere to be seen until he got backlash over this. I don't think he is a homophobe, I don't think he meant to hurt anybody, I think he should be allowed to talk about his own characters without people getting rabid, but I wish he did it in a way that didn't make all these annoying people so brave to harass others who were just shipping and minding their own business for years.
Honestly, gonna repeat this:
People are human beings, can we please stop saying each other are demons just for having other opinions. Criticisms are valid, but when you're going after a person instead of debating and talking civilly it creates unnecessary tension. People have all processed and interpreted Arcane in different ways, and I think we should celebrate differences of opinion instead of rejecting other's and making false claims, jumping on a ban wagon, etc
Eloquently spoken
Arcane Twitter doesn't deal in nuance. For every one crying about JayVik not being canon, they're out there calling him a "fruit" and other "reclaimed slurs" because it's cute.
THANK YOU! Finally, someone says it!
thank you! if we start a witchhunt every time a piece of art isn't perfect in every way shape or form, there won't be good pieces of art anymore. only people pleasing piles of garbage. and just because something isn't as one thinks it should have been, doesn't make the creator a bigot, a hater or whatever colorful words we use for people we disagree with.
plus from what I have seen, especially in the interview with linke and necrit he wanted to represent a strong emotional bond between men without sexual relationships. he never said anything about asexuality as far as I know? he wanted to show that people are more nuanced than "you're either acquaint or you're gay". I don't see bad intentions there.
@@maofone Nah, nah, nah, hell nah. Things either are or they aren't. Skip this "left up to interpretation" bullshit. If a person is gay then they ARE gay. If a person isn't gay then they AREN'T gay. Wishful thinking and other people's imaginations don't factor into the reality of one's true disposition.
There's nothing to "interpret".
Did Jinx kill Silco? Well, my "interpretation" is that she sent him on a peaceful journey into the void. NO, she merc'd him for almost killing her sister. Things are what they are.
Jayce and Viktor are two HETEROSEXUAL MEN who just happened to be incredibly close friends and work partners. Just because two men have a close bonding relationship doesn't mean they're gay. Like you said, Linke only said that asexual shit to get them off his back.
This rancid spawn of Tumblr generation disgusts me to my core. They want everything to be the way they want it to be, even if they have to reshape it into something else.
People "shipping" (anybody really) but especially characters like Jayce and Viktor who aren't what they wish they were is LITERALLY no different than a parent not being able to accept that their kid isn't straight.
It's the same exact thing. And at the end of the day the only person who's going to get disappointed is the one living in fantasy land instead of reality.
I'm asexual, and I think Viktor is great representation. He didn't suddenly become asexual after he had relinquished his emotion; the show implied he hadn’t been picking up on Sky's clues even before that. Rather, he pursued his research instead of romantic or sexual relationships.
On the other hand, I do believe that the portrayal of his relationship with Jayce was ambiguous - somewhere between platonic and homoromantic - regardless of whether this is what the writers intended in their script.
I really like the reading that their relationship is ambiguous because it sets it up as a nice foil to Vi's relationship with Caitlyn and Jinx/Powder. Arcane is set up around dualism, and Arcane sets up this sort of unconventional 'love triangle' between Vi/Jinx/Cait that is paralleled in various ways with Victor and Jayce. Which is pretty cool, because it means you can read it either way
Yeah I also got ace vibes from him. Even in his weird celestial mind palace where he hangs out with Skye, there’s nothing romantic happening between them. (She’s most likely a figment of his imagination and not really there) I think it was only Skye that had feelings for Viktor.
@mushymass9716 I hadn't considered that before, thanks for sharing. 🙂
I completely agree with this comment. I love all the jayvik content of course, although I personally (as an asexual) view their relationship like you said - between platonic and romantic. Something like a Queer-platonic relationship which blurs the lines of friendship and romantic partners. I see Viktor as somewhere on the asexual spectrum, but romantically attracted to the same gender :)
I said it in another comment, but linke said in an interview he wanted to represent a deep bond between men that's not labeled as homosexual or sexual in any way shape or form. I feel like that should have sparked an understanding for men who love each other don't feel attracted to each other. I feel like that's something we don't let men have enough in our society
bro imagine making a masterpiece like arcane and still getting attacked online
People dont understand why there is a bitter taste to arcane. Maybe it is a taste they never had. Maybe a taste that should be explored. More than just a masterpiece.
@@thatgermanview5721
Wdym by this?
@@soysource3218 It is hard to explain but keep asking why (vi)
@@soysource3218 also the bitter taste is by design. It is reckless to cook something up like this but it healed me.
Imagine making a show and getting told it's trash by a mf with a pfp FROM YOUR SHOW lmao, that's gotta be an experience
i understand where the fans are coming from, but why can't two guys have a close friendship without it being labeled as gay
Hypers*xualized culture. they're physically incapable of it because they assume male affection must be homos*xual in nature n
I think that happens all the time tho, so why can't also men just be gay, ultimately who cares it's just fun for fun
@@ParacetamolecitoNo it doesn't, a truly heartfelt, emotional and in depth platonic relationship between males isn't really shown in media very often. I think this really makes the relationship very beautiful.
@tobiashaurum3611 I mean sure you do and think whatever you want, I'm more like why would anyone care they are called gay by the shippers? Some are annoying yeah but like whatever, also true deep male friendships aren't that explored, at least not where both are vulnerable and close but that's also due to homophobia and sexism like damn let boys hug and cry
I don't think that's true. Something just felt more free spirited about it. I just don't touch the back of my friends necks. Noone ever thought turk and jd were gay from scrubs and they were much closer. There is just a level of intimacy you usually don't have with touching we have with eachother.
I think it would be more correct if Christian said something like "Jayvik is not canon, because we never intended that. But if you have it as a headcanon, that's fine."
It wouldn't have mattered. They still would've hated him, especially with his asexual Viktor thing.
@@blacktigerpaw1 he only started saying hes acexual after he got backlash
@@chiakinanami965No, he said that was the decision from the beginning before the show was released.
@@blacktigerpaw1 just popping in to say that ace people can still be gay/in a relationship
@@julialungan4722why does this fact matter?
Dawg just leave the poor man alone
people are really blowing this out of proportion
teenage girls
feel like most of it is yeah, just teenagers that love the drama and live expressing themselves to the internet. I dont think they think about the consequences, they're just goofin around like they do with any friend screaming about the things they dont like. But since arcane is so big, it gets out of proportion.
Sounds like the internet to be honest
@@Pedro-ew7ncdon’t involve us in this, I didn’t do this shit 😭
@@Pedro-ew7ncnot all teenagers and not all girls. The not all teenagers part is what's really pissing me off.
Can't we have something nice without reducing characters to their sexuallity nowadays? I think it's just disrespectful to characters that have so much to offer. It pisses me off that people think they are entitled to somebody else's work and attack him for not being what they want...
As a writer myself, I stand with Christian Linke on this. The fact is people are too damn sensitive and think everything is an attack against them specifically. Surprise surprise, not everything is about you. So he wrote Jayce and Viktor to be platonic, well that is how he wrote it. Sure, you are free to head-canon whatever you want, but it won't change how it was written or intended. Furthermore, just because he chose to write them as friends and brothers doesn't mean he's homophobic. Shippers used to be more casual about their shipping, now everything has gotten super aggressive for some reason. People need to calm the hell down and stop yelling for perceived slights. Sure, the pacing wasn't fantastic and I did want to see more, but I understand the limitations and constraints of the show. I just hope we get to see some of these characters in later shows.
S.S.
Pacing in season 2 would not have been a problem if they chose not to include Ambessa and her storyline in Season 1. I've been saying this after season 1 ended. The Noxian plot will ruin season 2. Season 2 carried the baggage Season 1 cannot. This is why in my opinion, Season 2 is a better story told
@@CzarsSalad Oh I rather enjoyed both seasons and the show as a whole. However, I can see how it felt a bit, overstuffed. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to tell the story you want and you have to rush to plot points in order to make the desired cut.
S.S.
@@CzarsSaladI wish the black rose storyline didn't exist honestly.
Shipping as a culture needs to be humbled or dismantled entirely. These select group of people believe they have the right to dictate a show even if the creators state otherwise. It’s years after years of ignorance and intolerance that has stemmed this problem. You won’t get everything you desire, nor are you entitled or deserving of so. This controversy proves that that lesson needs to be taught a lot more severely
@theultimate6542
Literally. Don't forget that shipping in some communities have ships that are downright not only immoral, but *completely illegal too* to the point you'd be perceived as a pdf because of the ship you made. That's why I never pop my head into communities anymore. The most I ever do is "good show/movie/game", and that's it.
People are mad that Jayce/Viktor isn’t a thing and not how rushed the show was? People are wild 😂.
Yep. Too busy focused on shipping and not the bad ending.
@@blacktigerpaw1bad ending? Can’t just label as bad because you wanted more. The quality like animation, action, emotion was all great we just could have had more. If that’s classed as a bad ending then idk what is good anymore 😂
The ending was rushed and simplified the conflicts in extreme ways, the character arcs were half-done, and they skipped over a lot of emotional beats because of the time-crunch. @@evangingerson1271
@@evangingerson1271it was good but definitely all happened too fast
I don't understand how people can go to him and try and tell HIM who HIS own characters are. Like what?? As a writer I would get annoyed if someone came to me telling me how my characters should act or who they are, I'M THE ONE WHO CREATED THEM, how are you going to tell me how I should make them.
For real
RS💯
This thing is very well portraited in "Misery" by S. King
I do think people are being far too aggressive about it, however, there is such a thing as personal interpretation and death of the author. Jayce and Viktor's relationship is beautiful and deep and amazing, which can make it very open to be interpreted in different ways. As someone who has personally shipped JayVik since s1 e2, I loved their relationship. But I also completely respect not wanting to read it as romantic. The other thing is death of the author; if a media/story has come to an end unfortunately you can't add things retroactively. If you have to go to an outside source like twitter it can't logically be considered cannon, just another fan headcannon (because you can 100% be a fan of your own work). Quoting the google definition of "death of the author" it is an argument against "traditional literary criticism's practice of relying on the intentions...of an author to definitively explain the 'ultimate meaning' of a text. The theory suggests that once a text is published, it takes on a life of its own and becomes open to interpretation by readers"
I do think Viktor being ace is cool! (I personally always pictured him as Demisexual, which is a part of the ace spectrum) However, I don't think it should be used as like some back-pocket defense card to shut down a relationship you didn't intend.
@@leamondrop_338 i agree
As an asexual, I’m actually glad Viktor is confirmed ace. I always got ace vibes from him. I didn’t get the impression that Viktor was some cold unfeeling robot. He’s extremely empathetic throughout the show, and his actions are reinforced by his empathy towards the citizens of Zaun and wanting to give them better lives. The shippers need to back off. So many fandoms get tainted by shipping wars. It’s so childish.
you can see him and jayce split as he pursues his academic studies while jayce life becomes muddled with romance and other ambitions. he never seemed interested in finding more. he always had one pursuit. a drive to do good. i kind of wonder if it’s why skye says “no you won’t” when viktor tells her he’ll miss their talks. i never felt like i could really imagine him being romantic
Christian wanted to show a positive, healthy and close male friendship. People can interpret it how they want, but honestly attack this man is indane.
this is such an interesting video. you have some incredibly good points.
i am a sapphic asexual and a jayvik shipper. in my honest opinion, both jayvik shippers and anti-jayvik shippers have been vilifying each other and Christian Linke far too much. while i wish Christian avoided the "disabled asexual" trope, the amount of jayvik shippers calling him homophobic/acephobic seems extreme as bigotry is a serious and sensitive topic and shouldn't be applied so easily. jayvik fans need to stop discrediting his talents and intentions, as disappointing as not having a ship canon can be. the canon is canon, and if you don't like that part of the media, you don't have to engage so seriously with that aspect of it.
equally, i wish people who didn't see jayvik as romantic to leave the shippers alone. the worst thing you can do with shipping is glorify an abuse dynamic (ex: child x parent) or lack the media illiteracy to properly represent the characters in the dynamic. the whole point of their dynamic is that they love each other in every way that matters. people ship jayvik for their own unique reasons, and it would be dismissive to reduce the nuance of fandom behavior to "male friendships cannot exist these days without being gay!!" or something similar. making them romantic, platonic, or familial wouldnt actually erase the complexity of their dynamic. they will care for each other no matter how they see each other, and that is the most important part of their relationship.
fandom is meant to be a community where people can collectively enjoy an interest in something. if the creators don't like the same ideas as their fans do for the story, then that is up to them. equally if the fans dont like the same ideas the creator has for their story, that is also up to them. i wish we could respect each other in fanbases
If you've been on Twitter you'll see there is no nuance. They automatically see Viktor as gay and even call him a f*g unironically. They're vilified for a reason, and it's solely due to their behavior. You also haven't seen how they react to multi shippers who include Mel. They get "visceral reactions" when black women get involved.
@@blacktigerpaw1 omg i HATE the way people treat mel. you have an important argument to make when it comes to the way people treat here. people either treat her as if she is a saint or a demon, when she is morally gray like every other character. in fact, she is more like jayce or viktor in which she tries to do her best, albeit through some unethical ways, but she ultimately wants peace for the city she cares about and love from her mother. it feels like misogynoir for her to receive less nuance than other morally gray characters
(edit: i rewatched arcane season 2, and i feel like mel is more like silco than viktor or jayce but less aggressive. now its even stranger to me because silco is beloved and treated with nuance by the fanbase while mel is not)
even with terrible fandom behavior (which as a jayvik shipper i feel ashamed of), i dont think vilifying shippers will solve the issue. even if many shippers can be toxic, you shouldnt hate on them for solely being a shipper anyway. the issue is a lack of fandom etiquette, not the fact they ship jayvik as a whole.
nonetheless, your argument is sensible. thank you for sharing your thoughts. it was quite thoughtful!
@@plato_IVthe misogynoir that comes thru when gay ships get involved is insane. Mel is constantly turned into a 2D evil character for ppl to throw stones at despite the fact that all three of them are very similarly morally gray with clearly depicted intentions and reasonings behind their actions. Mel is one of my all time favorite characters and the way she is constantly insulted and mischaracterized is insane and makes me want to like crawl out of my skin. I understand some people’s perspectives, with Mel reminding them of their own corrupt politicians in their counties, and how that might make them dislike her as a character, but the way people completely disregard what makes her character who she is in order to demonize her is insane. GOD I hate the internet sometimes. Anyways. It’s also insane because Mel and Viktor are genuinely so similar 😭😭😭 I’ve also seen a rise of people claiming Jayce is like gay and not interested in women and calling Mel his beard and I feel like that completely undermines so much of his character??? Let men be bisexual 2024??? It makes sense for Jayce to be bi and it’s stupid to call Mel a beard or Jayce a DL especially because sexuality is so free in runeterra… anyway in conclusion I love you Mel and I wouldn’t have left you to cosmically intertwine with my situationship.
You shippers brought it upon yourselves. Particularly the fujoshis like you. I can’t stand y’all and that is coming from a bisexual woman.
@@mylola. Funny how she gets hate, but Mage Viktor who kept manipulating Jayce is seen as a 'romance for the ages'.
Honestly I think that people holding on to them being gay even when told otherwise is alot more problematic. Close platonic relationships of men to this degree are hardly ever explored and honestly its rather insulting that every time it happens they riot for the creator to make them gay
Imagine, just imagine the day 2 very close friends, mAYBE EVEN BOTH GAY, are just that, incredibly important friends. Like, gay people can also be friends. Like 2 heterosexual people can be friends.
But i've never seen that, its crazy. maybe i haven't looked hard enough though
Close platonic relationships of men are the basis of a huge amount of media. I’m not saying you can’t see them as platonic but to say it’s problematic to read into the blatantly homo romantic subtext is just untrue? A huge portion of the animators shipped jayvik and it shows in the animation and their body language, not to mention the sheer number of caitvi and timebomb parallels. The beauty of Jayce and Viktors relationship is the ambiguity and the fact that it doesn’t matter what kind of love they have for eachother, whether it be romantic or platonic or both or neither or some secret third or fourth or fifth thing, because they would still act as they do towards eachother. My personal belief is that putting any sort of label on the relationship that the two of them has is an injustice, and frankly simply tries to quantify and define a type of love that is undefinable and infinite. Anyway sorry for the yappathon in ur replies !! :3
Oh but I do agree that harassing the creator over this is stupid because the ambiguity is kind of the point. He def could’ve worded what he said better and I def see it as a little problematic that he chooses to only NOW mention Viktor being asexual (coming from someone who is on the aroace spectrum and had HC Viktor as aroace since s1)
Close platonic male relationship is the DEFAULT of every media. People really need to stop saying it's never explored. Here's a handful of some of the most well known male friendships:
Sherlock and Watson.
House and Wilson.
Naruto and Sasuke.
Harry and Ron.
All popular characters of their shows who are straight (or maybe asexual) in canon. Have a close male friendship that partially defines their characters.
@@l.n.3372 it's still very much not explored in depth, 2/4 out of your example barely have any arcs centred around their realation
I'm sorry that you don't have any good friends irl but some of us do and really enjoy seeing that in a show just stop with making everything gay literally every platonic friends are always shipped and that's ok but attacking creators over this shit is insane
I think the root problem is just shipping culture in general. For example, if you ship a lesbian character with a man ALL HELL BREAKS LOSE. But for some reason it’s okay to ship characters like Jayce and Viktor who are portrayed to have a BROTHERLY connection??? Especially when Jayce already has Mel.
IMO, we either just let people ship whoever they want or if you want to criticise keep the same energy, don’t have double standards bruh.
Expecting people to not be obtuse? Challenge impossible.
Really calling him homophobic after he says he’ll give you an extended CaitVi sex (if everyone really wants that so bad)
That’s like accusing him of being heterophobic for making Jayce gay
Im not trying to be homophobic, it’s just annoying how some people get so deeply offended when someone portrays their identity even SLIGHTLY negatively as if it’s directed at the whole queer community. Like for example, being offended by Viktor/Jayce not being gay (or more specifically by Christian denying it)
Not saying he's homophobic, but there are people who fetishize lesbians and hate gays (as in guys with guys) so maybe they think he's one of those.
Isn't that like saying "I can't be anti M/M! Here's my proof: have a W/W extended scene!"
He could have bias against gay male relationships while still having positive lesbian relationships in his show.
@@l.n.3372 You are right but this isnt the case here because he dosnt have an agenda against JayVik situation hes just pointing out the obvious and teenage girls are mad they cant have their yaoi of 2 hot dudes dicking each other down. Thats the whole drama.
Swear they both had a female crush and Jayce has some fun with Mel in season 1 💀
As a JayVik shipper… it’s getting out of hand. I have a HEADCANON. But I’m fully aware they’re platonic, and I respect that. As someone with my own story and characters, I respect other creators more than the average person. I would be so upset if people tried to tell me how my own characters should behave, act, and who they SHOULD be instead of who they actually are. If the creator of a character says they’re platonic, then they’re platonic. There’s nothing wrong with having a head canon, but if you automatically expect it to be canon, you’ll only get faced with disappointment. They’re my favorite ship alongside Timebomb, but I fully understand they’re platonic, and that’s totally okay! I like their relationship regardless of what kind of relationship it is. This is why I try not to ship anymore because the shipping community is so so toxic… nowadays I usually gravitate towards canon ships (like Timebomb and CaitVi) bc it’s “safer” in a way. Occasionally I have a non canon one (like JayVik) but that’s what it is… non canon. And the sooner people accept that fact, the more at peace they’ll actually feel. Ship them on your terms in your head canon, but acknowledge that they’re not actually canon in the official story. (Admittedly though, that last scene with them was kinda gay lol. I keep trying to see it platonically but my brain won’t allow me to. Other than that though, I can interpret it as both.)
Thank you for having a brain. I used to be the same with Ekko and Jinx in season 1. I know they are canon now but I shipped them in season 1 knowing they could never end up togheter because they are....well trying to kill each other. So i just accepted it and moved on. I didnt go attacking the author when he confirms the obvious because it dosnt fit my agenda. Im glad theres people like that with this situation as well.
@@K_Petar (sorry this is long as hell) yep. Exactly. I understand where people are coming from because it always sucks when you really like a ship and it doesn't happen. I get it. I'd be a total liar if I said I wasn't at least a little bit let down since I like the ship too, but I'm not surprised by it either. I actually would've been insanely surprised if it happened. So I like the ship, but I never actually expected it to happen because it seemed pretty unlikely anyway. I understand people's feelings, but there's a difference between being silently a little sad for a while and then harassing the creator just because he didn't give people exactly what they wanted. Like the ship? Cool! Don't like the ship? Cool! But lashing out is a whole other issue. I think both sides kind of suck. People adore coming under JayVik videos and posts and going on rants about "why can't people just be friends anymore??" (they don't say that about the other ships though), but the shippers are equally as irritating because they ALSO get pissy when people disagree with them. The best thing for me to do is stay away from comment sections lol
As a non Jayvik shipper, I also agree. I don’t like how other non Jayvik shippers (the homophobic ones, mostly) assume that Jayvik shippers will ship ANY and EVERY man together. It’s overgeneralizing and close minded. Of course, there will always be those fans who will ship any two men they can find to the point of fetishization, but that’s a very small amount of people and you’re better off just ignoring them.
i appreciate your willingness to understand both angles. most videos like this don’t really do that and i felt this was very productive
This is why I hate the shipping community. Linke makes this story, he has Jayce and Viktor be parallels and brother figures, and because some people want it to be a gay romance they attack him for not gratifying their fantasy? Show some respect geez.
Honestly
There is nothing wrong with enjoying a ship, though we shouldn't try to force our views onto others. Arcane is an animated series that's pure fiction, so let's remember that when having fun discussing the characters.
To be honest I feel sorry for Christian, you can’t please everyone when you put something out there for the whole world to see. However, I mainly feel bad for him because he has to deal with twitter mob, most of them are unhinged and unrealistic with there criticism. Like you said: criticism is a healthy thing for things to grow but too much negative and unrealistic criticism comes off as ungrateful. I may have my issues with the 3rd act of season 2 but I still love what was given to us, let alone we even have it at all to begin with.
Personally, as someone who is asexual, I thought it was pretty offensive that in all those years, it was never once talked about or stated that Viktor is asexual, and then the second that people start to ship Jayce and Viktor together he threw that out there as some sort of shield against shippers. I don't even care if making Viktor asexual is a pretty lazy stereotype, but it makes no sense to go "they can't have romantic feelings for eachother" since that is aromantic, not asexual. The way he is going about it just seems distasteful and a bit ignorant.
I think it's also pretty funny to watch everyone else who worked on Arcane ship them together, except for him💀
That’s what everyone is upset about? There are actual core issues with season 2 more specifically the ending that should be getting attention and critiqued, not everyone crying that 2 guys that show each other love isn’t romantic 🤦♀️
Factssss like let’s focus on the biggg issue which is how this show was cut short. And it was not “intended to be two season” creator lie all the time due to the higher ups. I’m pretty sure they wanted it to be 3/5 seasons but something up the ladder said no, and this is why we got a very fun but weird season two.
@ ageed, honestly I don’t know why they would cut a very successful show off short like they did but for whatever reason they messed up and made fans mad in the process which is something you definitely don’t want when that’s where your chichang 💵 comes from, but we are taking matters into are own hands and rewriting and animating the end of season 2
@@ALZStudios-qd5jmExactly. no one is talking about how the story fumbled, they're all talking about the ships.
What’s wrong with the ending? It’s amazing! If you think jinx dies…then you’re wrong she survives. Yeah wish we had more time on this series
@@blacktigerpaw1 yeah like come on priorities 😵💫
i scrounged through his replies once i learned that the dude was actually going around answering questions
didnt actually find much actual hatred thrown at them, but i did find badly worded criticism (even some that was adressed directly by him with the critic then sort of apologising for being rude)
idk, this whole controversy seems exaggerated? it's twitter, you can find people angry about everything
there's even people calling the show woke cause cait/vi didnt have huge tits in their sex scene or something like that
Not through the replies but just in general twitter
Great video I agree with all your takes here
Arcane season 2 hate must stop it was soooooooooo good I truly don't understand why people hate on it every character arc ended amazingly well and they also digged in to more special things
Ppl having criticism isn't a bad thing. If you walked away 100% satisfied, then that's great, but other ppl have a right to feel how they feel
Listen, as much as I like to lean into the queer interpretations of Jayce and Viktor and like to joke that they’re definitely boyfriends, I think this whole backlash is really just a stark example of how incapable we as a western society are of seeing two male characters being loving and vulnerable and physically close with each other and still be entirely platonic, and I think that in and of itself is a huge problem. It’s part of the puzzle of why so many straight men feel they can’t have deep relationships with other men without fear of being misinterpreted and misunderstood (it’s not just internalized homophobia, it’s just the power of peer expectation and that being misunderstood hurts us), and this is deeply troubling. It’s fun to headcanon these characters as gay, but there honestly should be nothing wrong in stating that they are, in fact, not gay (for each other) and that should be entirely inoffensive. I can’t even agree with the theory that Fortiche may have decided to make scenes with them “more fruity” because are we forgetting Fortiche is a French studio?? They’re not afraid of depicting straight men being physically close. Nothing has to be read further into it.
And as an Ace myself, I also can’t agree that saying Viktor is ace is somehow bad representation for supposedly leaning into an “aces are unfeeling robots” stereotype. I frankly didn’t know that was even an ace stereotype to begin with. On top of that I think that interpretation is a very shallow reading of Viktor’s arc and lacks some much needed nuance and a deeper understanding of his motivations in the first place, as his being ace doesn’t have to have anything to do with his slowly losing his sense of humanity for the sake of ending people’s suffering, something he wanted to do precisely because he is incredibly empathetic and wants to help people. And is it not a POSITIVE spin on this supposed trope for him to be reminded by his platonic soulmate (because yes I do believe they were definitely soulmates of a kind) of all the ways his flaws and his humanity made him beautiful?? And how that is what reached him in the end??? That seems like nothing but good representation to me. I was in the arcane Reddit the other day reading a thread on Viktor being confirmed as Ace and the people over there pretty much only talked of it positively.
I dunno, a lot of this criticism seems to be lacking in nuance and media literacy, but people’s projections are a very powerful thing that take hold of them, especially when they feel like they should have some kind of control over the narrative, as if only they decide what is true and correct about a show they did not write only because enough people agree with their takes. It’s really sad.
Hello from an alloromantic ace! (asexual person who still feels romantic attraction for those who don't know) Here is what I have to say, personally.
I don't think Christian Linke was trying to be ignorant here. What I do believe is that he might not be educated that much on asexuality. As we, the ace community, very often try to explain: there is a difference between sexual attraction and romantic attraction: it does not go hand in hand for us like for allosexual (non asexual) people. Not to mention there are different levels of comfort when it comes to certain things in romantic relationships.
What he seems to mean to me is that Viktor is aro/ace (aromantic and asexual, so feeling little to no romantic attraction as well).
He did mention that other people on the team told him about how asexuality is often paired to emotionlessness. I believe that is true. Often, asexuality is represented inaccurately in media. I don't think that was his intention if he took that into account.
Do I think Viktor's representation was a good idea? It was fine to me. But as the other ace voice in the video said: he mildly follows the stereotype in some ways. Viktor is still a human, of course, but this magic/robotic transformation thing does unfortunately make it similar to me (probably unintentionally so. Keep that in mind. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.)
I think that there would've been better options for ace representation in the cast. What I think they could've done is have him as well as an other character be ace. This way you don't have the one ace character be the robot hextech god. You have an other one who's a normal human, possibly an alloromantic.
I know for sure that if they know enough about asexuality, they could do wonders representing it. Have an ace person on the team be a voice of advice for them. What I wouldn't give for an alloromantic ace who's involved in a main ship and navigating it the way they feel most comfortable with! Or just clearer representation than we got with Viktor. Have the theme be explored! I'd LOVE it!
Thank you for your statement! Ik RUclips chat is pretty biased but I wanted to give both sides a fair argument cuz there is wrong on both sides. In the topic of asexual representation, I would've loved them keeping main jinx ace since that take would be a lot more interesting but it looks like that's not the case from the artbook
@@maofone YES. I always interpreted Jinx as ace. Probably demiromantic as well. She still loves Ekko, but just romantically and because they know each other since they're children. I still headcanon her that way in Arcane. :)
She just doesn't give the vibe that she feels sexual attraction to me. But romantic attraction under certain circumstances? I totally buy it.
Personally I can separate cannon and head-cannon's rather easily. In cannon I think they're deeply close friends, told in a beautiful way that transcends just a romantic or sexual relationship.
But I could also see them in another universe as a budding couple and I can enjoy that too, to me it's just as beautiful to envision! It could be easy to read what he said in bad faith, and sometimes I'm like "so two close women can be a couple but not men?" But I'm not going to assume someone's hypocrisy with no evidence, and I'm not going to utterly demonise someone who's just being open about their creative process or opinions on writing.
Viktor could be biromantic, asexual, demisexual, graysexual, aroace-- whatever! I'll still love his character and his personality.
Sides thoughts! heheh it's lowkey funny timing with viktor mains being angry over his 'twinkification'! Not really beating the allegations there ey Vik? Also, I think fortiche staff are silently for shipping them by the sounds of it, maybe that's why he was extra touchy about it. I think it's VERY funny though!
His new design is a downgrade though. He went from being beefy to whatever tf he is now.
@@blacktigerpaw1 Yeah I actually have some thoughts on that! I compared the league of legends vgu (splash art and in-game model) to the Viktor in Arcane, and the proportions are actually quite different. In arcane, he has a bulky chest, while the bottom half is more skeletal. While in the game, he's been given very human, skinny proportions.
He still wouldn't be like what he used to be of course, which I'm split on, but I think he'd have been received somewhat better if they went with the shows version. Instead they've kinda landed somewhere close to the show but not really. I truly hope they fix up his model and splashart sometime. I think they've done this because they'll have future plans for more human models.
Not gay, they are brothers, its like they tried to put that to Mylo/Clagger and even Vander/Silco in AU. Men can be best friends and brothers wth
Wait aren't Vander and Silco like ACTUAL brothers..
@@miimamwezno, they just really close together
@@nar3947 Oh okay, then that ship is a bit less cursed
All I gotta say is
1.) He likely had to give his ok on any and all scenes in the final product so he obviously knew that some people would come to the conclusion that JayVik is a thing so obviously he’s not homophobic or else the scenes would’ve been different.
And 2.) The amount of people saying things like he should just step away from the project or that he isn’t needed for Arcane is ridiculous, Link literally the only reason we even have the show in the first place… express your criticisms but don’t be silly.
I'll say a quote from one of my favorite creators, "people need to learn to care about gay ships that aren't men."
In literally every form of media, including the one the creator I'm quoting made, if there is a sapphic relationship, but no mlm ones, people go crazy. They can't handle the idea that sapphic rep is good enough, or that it's _there_. So blatantly often sapphic representation gets pushed aside for people's yaoi fantasies. Look at what happened with Voltron for gods' sake, as much as I'd like to say its not about them being gay, you know damn well it is.
I personally do admit I also like the ship, for all the uses of the word "partner" and them seemingly being unable to go alone, but like. I have other canon relationships to focus on. I don't need to find every possible way to twist or justify them being together, I don't have to attack creators, and can guarantee most people who are attacking them are either gay men who aren't satisfied by sapphic rep or straight yaoi obsessed girls. (you would genuinely be surprised the amount of gay men who can be lesbianphobic and get pissy there's women kissing but no men kissing and get away with it.)
i feel like people should just let people ship who they want together (adults obviously) like idk why jayvik triggers so many people
It's the fact a lot of them despise Mel and honestly sound like white nationalists. One said they got a "visceral reaction" to the MelJayVik ship, because to them, Viktor and Jayce aren't into women.
Know that meme of Adam Driver yelling after that guy in Black KKKlansman? That's them .
Because you shippers are annoying as fuck, you guys brought it upon urselves
idk what else to say guys im so fvcking tired of the negativity around this season, yeah it was flawed blablabla we get it yeah you ship this and that blablabla we get itttt just stooooooop, i swear the one thing i always loved about this fandom was how calm and nice it was. but now it almost feels like if the hazbin hotel fandom infiltrated ours 💀
League fans were destined to take over, and we all know they arent the most civil
What's funny is with the final volume of My Hero Academia being leaked, this feels very much like THAT discourse that a gay fan ship wasn't made canon and the fans are crying and attacking the creator.
@@Jman92854 as a gay man, all this shippers are pathetic honestly, they're mostly horny women or kids who know nothing about relationships.
Yeah seeing negativity from fandoms regarding media that I like always drags my mood down so I just try to avoid it when I can. There will never be something that pleases everyone, so popular content will never avoid getting hate no matter how good it is.
@@maofoneNah, this batch of fans aren't League fans. They're fandom leftovers from other fandoms.
I have literally gotten “attacked” for being a Jayce x Viktor shipper😭 like obviously ik they aren’t canon but like let me have fun.
honestly those shippers should stay in the closet
That's silly. You should be free to ship Jayce and Viktor just as much as anyone else in the main cast.
yes T_T
So real like I have to explain to people that others have silly ideas and ships and that they should jsut let them do it (unless it’s problematic )
Cool. I've seen other JayVik shippers basically become Stormfront members once Mel gets involved.
They made us invest in the first season with competent characters and writing. Only to get rid of all their writers Christian can't write he got told so after the first review of arcane by riotgames themselves. Then he hired 9 different writers who did the first season but for some reason shrunk the writers room for season two to just three people leaving Christan, Alex and amanda. There are many valid reasons why people are upset with arcanes creator at the moment. For me this is one of them.
I don't know too much about the writer information. Where can I learn more?
I agree season 2 had quite a few issues but Jayce and Viktor being platonic/romantic is not one of them.
@@maofone Amanda was on a watchparty on a youtube channel, at 1 hour and 30 mins (i will time stamp it) she talks about the writers room situation.
ruclips.net/user/livebgpWJl1NuTE?si=m8IG73XWmIu-S-y2&t=5406
Where did you get this?
Where can we find the info on this? :)
As a gay dude, I prefer gay relationships in media to be CANON and explicit. I honestly didn't get any romantic coding (explicit or subtextual) from Jayce and Viktor so I never expected anything. I think expecting a relationship out of something that was never coded that way is unfair, especially over a show that has CANONICAL QUEER relationships in the show and will almost certainly have more in future projects. The creators of ARCANE are definitely not homophonic and it's crazy to have to defend that considering how much they've pushed representation already.
Jayce and Viktor's relationship reminds me exactly of how Wicked portrays Glinda and Elphaba. Wicked is fundamentally a story about the friendship/enemy dynamic of two women, but because so much of the narrative core is focused on the two of them and how much they feel about eachother, it's hard not to see that as romantic. Arcane tells a story about the friendship/enemy dynamic of Jayce and Viktor while making the stakes of the narrative ultimately revolve around their relationship. It has the same awkward effect. While I enjoy Jayvik as a ship, I only ever see it as a fun alternate canon to what I know the show was going for, and I only ever saw them as friends in the show.
This reminds me of when Isamya got a lot of criticism due to how Attack on Titan ended
Exactly, was thinking about that
Also got MHA vibes
Fandoms just can't move on
Nah I think this one is completely different. Christian right now is getting attracted over deranged shippers who have problems differentiating reality form fiction, while Isamya was getting criticism due to how shit the ending to AoT was. And I do think that Christian should be criticised for the many issues with Season 2 of Arcane, it just baffles me that he's being assaulted for such a dumb reason instead of for what he actually should be.
I thought the video is gonna be about how Warwicks design is not ‘wolf’ enough or Viktor’s final form is not ‘robot’ enough. But oh its about say gex
i play league , and if victor and jayce were gay then the people who play the game would hate it. i love the show , they are just partners/brothers
.
Hes been annoying but also jayvik fans are being annoying, the only thing i didnt like was the fact that he suddenly made viktor ace just so he can stop people from shipping
The decision was made before the show was released, so it wasn't made with the ship in mind.
I agree, Christian should just tap out from these sorts of criticism
I read viktor as ace from the beginning. I dont think it was something he suddenly did.
@@NoFoCuS it was definitely written that was from the start but the way he brought it up is a bit problematic. If I make a mistake and people hate on my for misinterpreting that's my fault in presentation.
@@maofone I think everyone in this situation just needs to delete Twitter. Actually, I think everybody on the planet probably needs to do that
He is clearly trying to appease people . If the S2 has too many critics maybe he would lose his partnership with Riot . The difference between S1 and S2 is too big he must have been pressured in a way or another , they used S2 to tease about Noxus more than to resolve the issue between Pilltover and Zaun etc...
Yes litteraly felt like a set up for Noxus or something else. Sometimes it didn’t feel like the end of the show/or the focus of it. Especially act 3. But it’s probably due to the shorten run time.
1:24 I wish we had a timebomb petition
Make one!
I was beyond surprised so many people found their relationship in the end as gay. It was pretty obvious they just had a close platonic bond, that is very much possible between two men. I found it as a parallel to Jinx and Vi affection as sisters. I never got the hint of romance between their bond. I feel like people trying to connect genuine affection between two characters as a romance may not really understand the nuance between different bonds and connections between others. Also as terms to sexuality, Jayce never striked me as gay. And Victor I believe from the creator was termed as asexual, which I could defiantly see.
I believe it's the scene where Viktor is choking and leering over Jayce that can be interpreted as homoerotic.
I think you’re onto something. These people lack empathy and understanding. The only meaningful relationships, in their minds, are ones they look like theirs
@@coreyaruecker The ship is pretty huge, and a lot of fans see it as romantic. Then again, they do that with any male characters.
I ship Jayvik and don't care what Christian said (I've been obsessed with them for a week (and still am)). I think fans should focus on other problems with season 2 (like it was rushed for example)
Edit: I love Asexual Homoromantic Viktor and Bisexual Jayce
I think the story needed more time.
the fast pacing was not a problem but I feel
like we missed a lot of things we can't just deduce.
Viktor is not shown being ace, or not enough,
so Cristian Link saying he is after the fact is a bit cringe.
But maybe I'm mistaken, it depends whether ace people
recognized themselves in Victor.
This is like Luca and Alberto from the movie Luca, like guys chill, let them be amazingly close friends, these friendships are amazing and should reflect how deep friendships can go, wanting it to be gay can undermine the depth of the friendship.
As a fellow Gay to you all, we will get gay characters dont worry, and dont be douches
Eughhh I’m kind of tryna stay away from commenting abt this discourse on the internet but I am a little mad about Christian linke only NOW coming out to talk about Viktor being aroace. Coming from an aroace person who has wholeheartedly believed Viktor to be on the aroace spectrum since s1 I hate that this is being used as a way to say that jayvik makes no sense and cannot happen because it shows that some ppl fundamentally do not understand what it means to be on the aroace spectrum. I’m annoyed that Christian linke only says something now, after creators have been tiptoeing around Viktors sexuality for a rlly long time, and it rlly does just seem like a convenient way to deny jayvik. I also do think it can be viewed as problematic that the only asexual character in the show is a disabled man who’s arc does heavily revolve around feeling unlovable for who he is rather than what he can make, and someone who does have an inferiority complex related to their disability and body. It seems like a cop out, and it sucks because disabled people in media are rarely depicted as sexy or like in tune with their sexuality. I’m not really explaining it well but it kind of just rubs me the wrong way idk if I’m making any sense.
I call them "the gayest straight men" as a joke, because i KNOW that BOTH of them are straight, their whole relationship just came off as a little gay in my eyes, but im not going to delude myself into thinking they're gay when they're obviously not.
I personally understand his reaction tho. As a writer, I imagine it can be frustrating that almost the entire fandom is misrepresenting your intentions. Of course, it's expected of a show as massive as arcane, but still, writing is such a personal experience, and you get so deep into these characters and dynamics, knowing stuff about them that is simply not available to the viewer/reader. The reaction might be a bit harsh at times, but I do really get it.
I get jayvik, but really it's such a beautiful story of friendship and soulmates, that it really goes so far beyond"romantic" and "platonic". I feel as though people have taken these descriptive labels and made the prescriptive. If X does Y then they are Z. If A and B do C then they are D. These labels (including labels relating to identity) were created to describe reality, but now they are taken to be rules. But fiction exists in a world where these labels either don't exist or are different.
I'm a person who never felt comfortable with the traditional labels and roles of our society, especially when it comes to identity. Gender, sexuality, all of it is very confusing. And at first I found comfort in labling those feelings - "non-binary", "queer", "asexual", they felt right. But then people started building a standard of identity around them. And when it no longer fit them, they would abandon ship and invent a new word; since, repeat, the cycle goes on. And that micromanaging of labels makes me almost equalas uncomfortable as being told to fit into the stereotypes of my birth sex, or a heterosexual identity. It just doesn't feel right.
And the same goes for labeling relationships. "Homoerotic friendship", "situationship", "queerplatonic", god, it's a postmodern nightmare of symbols becoming so much more important than the real thing.
And all discussion surrounding Arcane's (or any) characters' identities becomes a buzz. Viktor's not just "asexual" or "disabled" or "robotic" or "queer". He's Vikior. You don't have to put labels on him to see what he is - the show is RIGHT THERE. And, like, shipping is cool, its very fun at times, but if the creators said "yeah, they're gay", it wouldn't change the text. All that youan find is there already. You don't need validation or discouragement from a writer. Youan just analyse the text and come to your own conclusions. There is so much more to Arcane than all the buzzword bullshit, so much material to ACTUALLY analyze, so much that sits below the surface, even if at first it seems to be very blunt and lack subtext. And people choosing to just talk about the same stuff over and over again in new ways that say nothing new is so baffling to me.
Anyways. Yeah.
I feel like the best reaction to this sort of situation I can think of off the top of my head is Mark Hamill saying, “if you see Luke as gay, of course he’s gay!”
I honestly don’t know why so many creators get so squirrelly about things they didn’t necessarily intend as queer being read that way. Like, I can think of SO MANY properties that have all this queer rep or performers who play a queer character in another role but the SECOND people start reading gay into the thing that’s not explicitly stated to be so, it’s all “hey what’s with all the crazy people”. SO weird. Let people live. Nobody is going to die because people like the idea of these two particular dudes kissing (just don’t be a POS about the black girl while you’re at it). You weren’t advertising the show with sexy super cuts of Victor and Jayce. Nobody being normal about this property thinks you’re queerbaiting. ITS FINE. People still love Cait/Vi and the beautiful trans girl and all the other stuff you did for rep. You can ignore the 13 year old on Twitter.
Also I’m…a little confused as to why Jayce and Victor having a little something going on with female characters would preclude them from being interested in one another??? Could they not be bi, or am I misunderstanding and the point was that no, Jayce has an established love interest and it’s another character?
And this is why i ended up switching to Tumblr 😭🤣 twitter and reddit got very toxic recently and there is a lot of unnecessary hate, some of them give off the vibe that they didn't even watch the show and are there just to hate on it.
It's incredible that I've found more nuanced takes on tumblr (where all this shipping culture began) than Twitter. Wild how times change.
man made a masterpeace that broke my soul. Dude is where he belongs. Enough said.
What this dude has made is crazy.
I've seen this dudes comments. He's just upfront. No BS... Why do people get mad at someone being honest?
I think his response to general criticisms of S2 have been a bit tone deaf, some people just don't take criticisms very well, which is fine. On the other hand the ace thing is a weird hill to die on
I’ve seen the whole “tone deaf” thing, but it’s really hard to say that when you know he’s getting thousands, probably millions of comments, dms, and criticisms. There’s a reason most show runners don’t interact with the fans like this.
hes not dying on no hill hes a man with a job to do and a life he cant be bothered pleasing horny teenage girls attacking him bcs their yaoi fantasy wasnt true. end of story
Honestly, he deserves to be proud of what he’s created. The show is amazing
as much as i would love to defend the creator of my favourite show ever, i sadly can't. both christian and twitter are acting like children. i can understand christian's feelings about the whole jayvik situation, but i can also understand the fan's frustation when the creator doesn't allow open interpretations and is constantly telling people off. either way all this hate is just nonsense
I thought it was fun to head cannon ship jayce and Victor cause they genuinely would make a great pair. But having them have this close brotherly bond is also great and fits with the theme of sibling bonds in arcane. Silco and vander, jinx and vi, Victor and jayce, and even the cities themselves with piltover and zain being sister cities in lore.
i honestly totally understand where christian is coming from. his way of responding mightve been pretty backhanded. but if i were to be in his shoes, having millions of people coming for me on the internet, critisizing me for an unharmful statement i made about my show?? honestly, i wouldve reacted the same way. and whats funny to me, is how the people critisizing him wouldve also done the same thing since it is so clearly seen how they cant handle what christian said about jayvik properly and in a mature way.
i am not a jayvik shipper either though i totally respect and love them. but the ones intervening in this situation rudely should NOT be talking. talking about lgbtq (asexual) inclusivity as an excuse to defend their argument. you already have it?? there is amazing trans and lesbian (sexual and romantical) representation in this show. is that not enough?? not EVERYTHING needs to be gay. why cant two guys have an extreme close friendship and bond without it being labelled as gay??
most of the people who are attacking christian for the writing when their own asses dont even know how to write😭😭. maybe leave these to the professionals?? if you truly know how to critisize and analyze shows, you should honestly know that the interactions between jayce and viktor are obviously platonic, in a realistic manner (but if you interpret them as romantic, its totally fine and acceptable). the way they were writen to be platonic is honestly amazing. its nice to see people writing platonic relationships between men where they can be vulnerable and emotional with each other because it is not seen that much nowadays since its labeled stereotypically for them to act "tough".
also, i do not know how people are even shocked by christians tweets about jayvik being intentionally platonic when theyve called each other "brothers" several times throughout the show?? wouldnt it be weird to call your romantic partner a "brother"? just with this one clear argument, it literally backs up christians whole "jayvik is canon" statement. because how the hell can you oppose that, unless you are into incest or anything related to that???
in conclusion, christians opinion is totally valid, and so are the ones from jayvik shippers. though they couldve both handled it better. but linke had all rights to react and handle the situation that way. all the controversy and criticism started and came from the ones opposing his unharmful tweet. and from there, THAT is when christian started adding backhanded comments. so if it werent for the way they reacted to his confirmation, he wouldnt have made a comment with such tone.
for the people reading this, i am sorry u had to encounter such yappery😭😭 i just had too much to get off my chest about this situation.
As a bisexual who never really had too many friends, it always felt a bit gay to me when a friend cared about me or showed affection. But later on I realized that is just how friends work. Not everything is about sex, most things aren't about sex and most things shouldn't be about sex.
As someone who plans on writing books, I would also get a bit offended, or just rather sad if a character, or scene was completely misinterpreted. But, at least I can say that stuff like shipping never hurt anyone.
About Arcane, they delivered an amazing show, could we stop complaining?
I came here thinking it was about the cut Ekko and Powder content before the final battle my bad and good luck with your campaign. It never really occured to me cuz I thought he was getting down with Mel!😂
Pretty sad people have never had a best friend who you are as close to as a sibling, and who you would do almost anything for. Going to shipping ever relationship is just stupid.
I can't believe people attack him for that:D
It's just... Unnecessary.
Anyways I am also a little disappointed in the treatment of Vi this season as well as THAT caitvi scene as it also rubbed me the wrong way, especially with Amanda saying it was somehow vi “reclaiming her trauma” the entire dynamic between Caitlyn and vi feels very weird to me now because of it. I really wish that instead of paralleling their first meeting scene with the boomshakalaka in the prison cell (also weird because jinx had probably been peeing pooing and bleeding on the floor + food was rotting) they had had it parallel the moment when cait saved vi with the shimmer and then had it transition to paralleling their first bed scene. I think that anything the borders on romanticizing incarceration is awful because vi was in fact tortured by enforcers in a cell just like that one. Idk man I just thought it was a weird choice and I kept waiting for it to cut to them in bed or something 😭😭
I definitely think SOMEONE on the writing team wrote Viktor to be gay because of the whole "wait this is not my bedroom" joke.
What we really need is an entire directors cut of Season 2, praying they have something like it
This man has a great mind and is very protective of his work which I understand. Also if you watch the Necrit interview it's clear he has a lot of anxiety and he struggles to deal with bad reviews. I wish he received some of these comments more gracefully and will take some of the fans demands into consideration but even if he don't because they have a clear vision of where the show is going it's not a reason to send hate. The new show is already in production so there is not much they can learn from season 2.
Honestly as writer and a fan of many different things whos seen this pattern time and time again: fans are the worst and also terrifying in how they’ll lambast you publicly and you’re just supposed to take it, just because you said their ship isn’t intended as canon (I’m also a sapphic creator and the ridicule you get from some wlw fans if you don’t make perfect representation to them - which varies from person to person - is insane)
a thing that i think could be interesting is a mini series released by netflix of the behind the scenes with some explanations of why they things the way they did and also they could realease extended cuts of parts that werent in the show without compromising the ratings. its such a complex show that this could be a way to add more reasoning to the choices made throughout.
People can be friends without being labeled as gay/lesbian these days... Wtf😅 they hate being labeled but they're labelling others
I agree. Hate is absolutely unnecessary. Also this writing was phenomenal. Hating it because your personal preferences weren't met is like being served an artfully created dish and hating it for one ingredient you personally don't like.
Hopefully extended version of that scene will be included as a deleted scene or incorporated into the actual episode for the bluray release! not sure if there are rules around saucy scenes like that for streaming services or just netflix in general like there are for TV
I wish to return to the time where headcannons remained just headcannons. And people weren't threating creators to make their headcannons real.
Really tired of people thinking a sexual relationship is a the pinnacle of how close people can become. Familial relationships, friendships can/are just as strong if not more and this strange insistence our society has to make everything sexual is kinda gross
Viktor is an aromantic ace. That should be enough for people. The whole "these two guys breathe around each other so they must be gay" routine is so tired and should have been left behind long ago.
The entire shipping community needs to be humbled or dismantled entirely. It’s become a cesspool of ignorance and squabble that generally affects the outcome of series. If the main head writer says something is so, that’s final. There’s no different types of interpretation because there is no interpretation without solid facts. What should be a time of celebrating the show, is instead now being destroyed and hated by a select group of individuals who can’t separate reality from fiction. This is a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed
People are very entitled when it comes to their ships and it's incredibly toxic. I don't know how anyone could call the team that gave us CaitVi homophobic. Ship whatever you want; hell, I ship Jayvik too. But that doesn't make you entitled to demand that canon bend to your preferences. Jaymel is right there and that's a good ship too, yet it gets less love, and I've even seen people hurl vitriol towards Mel just for getting in the way of Jayvik. It's so bizarre and unhinged. Loving, platonic, brotherly relationships between two male characters are healthy and need to be spotlighted more often, too.
For me, the most infuriating part is the perpetuation of the idea by many fans that two men being close = gay.
Men can have platonic relationships, and these men have been written by the head show-writter to be platonic friends who are vulnerable with one another. I think it's a very beautiful friendship that's not often seen in media, especially between men. To ignore Jayce's relationship with Mel and to slander the show-writter for not writting direct confirmation in the show that Viktor is ace is just wild to me. As an ace person, I related to Viktor so much without a direct confirmation and read him as ace long before it was confirmed. To see so many people, even in this comment section write off asexuality because they can't percieve a world where platonic, healthy male friendships exist just makes me so sad for them.
I only had the problem with the placement of Vi and Cait scene doing it in right after seeing a depressed Suicidal Jinx, the other shippers trying to push their ideals on the shows that they didn’t make it is ridiculous just like people pushing Gwen for being trans cause she had a flag in her room like seriously stop ruining these characters with these ideals.
0:09 THICK OF IT MENTIONED???
im in the thick of it everybody knows
they know me where it snows i skied in and they froze
well this is fandom drama mining, i see youre getting your moneys worth and im contributing by adding comments for the algorithm god
anyways, the fact that the main writer christian linke has an "explicit version" of caitvi on his hard drive is predictable as a straight guys being into lespprn
but honestly is anyone surprised that he wouldnt ship jayvik? im sorry, do we need to pull out his other writing projects wherein he attempted to write female characters and how it could have easily landed him in that reddit thread about writing women poorly? (we're talking she breasted boobily levels)
like yeah, a straight cis dude whose more down with lesbian sex and "just doesnt see men loving men" is a tale as old as time, why is anyone surprised?
also cmon, straight dudes accidentally creating a huge "yaoi" fanbase is also a known phenomenon - are these fans new? from supernatural to death note to star trek, straight dudes making some pretty f great men on men homoerotica (as beloved by many none male, none straight fans) is also a tale as old as time
in all those cases, no - the purported "men loving men" relationships are never going to be "canon" - it will never be the intent. but thats not going to devalue how the "yaoi" gets shipped. listen to your fandom elders, we've done this song and dance before, and we remain the oldest and most prolific fan creators without ships getting canonized (and believe me, you dont want straight cis dudes writing your yaois, as supernatural famously demonstrated - they will just mess it up)
I want to give a platform to both sides and did I wanted views I would just make an analysis especially coming off after season two. I think this is an important discussion about Christmas interactions with the community and I also wanted to defend the backlash he's getting. But yeah like with all drama stuff is overblown
Get some help lmao. You're clearly wrong in head.
This is why I dont engage with fandoms anymore. I’d rather like what I like and keep it to myself rather than arguing with immature people over fiction
This is the best show of the 2020’s! The only people complaining are LoL players! Who only care about lore and not actually if the change helps the show or not! The changes definitely helped create this masterpiece.
It doesn't matter if you are the writer , the fanbase will interpret things differently from what you have intended , and it is a fact I am trying to get used to as a writer especially with the type of fanbase I am targeting .
If the fanbase wanted Viktor and Jayce to be gay , then let them be , you can't control what they think , fans have been doing that since online fan culture has emerged and no amount of arguing with them will stop it , instead , it will put you in a bad light as a writer , disrespecting the fans . Just don't ruin the party for fans , let them enjoy your work , even if that was not what you had in mind .
I don't think you can call this guy getting hate. A majority of the fandom isn't saying this. It's probably one or two insane people who care too much about shipping.
No, it's real. Maybe not majority, but reddit and twitter are all raging about it, calling him a homophobe and that he shouldn't have said they're just brothers
I think another thing worth considering is Riot's shaky past with mlm representation. There are quite a few wlw characters within the universe of Runeterra and a lot of them get to be romantic and even get to kiss in official media! But you'll have a very hard time finding the same treatment afforded to any mlm characters. K'Sante is introduced to us as someone who is separated from his lover and TF + Graves were not afforded the same kiss afforded to Leona and Diana. Even in the Varus music video we only get a forehead press. Typically wlw pairing are seen as more "palatable" to straight audiences to it's likely a situation where higher ups at riot are filtering out what the writers and illustrators can and cant publish (which they've been outed as doing, notably when they did not allow the writers to publish Taliyah as trans). The way they've represented mlm characters hasn't been bad at all in isolation, but you look at the contrast between how they represent wlw and it gets a bit sad... I'd also like to add that the argument of "why can't men just be close friends?" really only shows up during discussions of mlm ships. And let me tell you, it is not one league players are new to. This argument has come up time and time again even at the mere hint that two male characters might have had something more intimate than friendship. It came up for Twisted Fate and Graves, Udyr and Lee Sin, and now Jayce and Viktor and it won't be the last time this community has this discussion. The same people that argue this will never be saying this for an unnecessary straight ship and there are way more examples of writers forcing straight characters together with no prior chemistry just because they are the opposite gender.
Honestly, this kind of stuff blows up like this around any big media or fandom that dares to attempt an mlm ship, it's disheartening and makes me lose hope that I'll ever get to see this type of representation because any hint of it gets aggressively bullied off of the platform. I just hope they don't restrict the writers from adding genuine mlm representation in the future, especially when the Bilgewater show finally comes out with Twisted Fate and Graves, I'd even settle for just a kiss.
I never even got the feeling about Victor that he had no emotions, just that they were heavily suppressed by the Arcane and himself. He thought that emotions would be holding back humanity in achieving "glorious evolution", so he decided to literary hide them behind a mask. Therefor, his perceived lack of emotion isn't even tied to his sexuality.
I don’t understand why people think it’s appropriate to tell someone what to do with THEIR creation. C’mon…
I Like the idea of real platonic love. Some friendships are like family. And that is also beautiful. Not everything has to be romantic. Love has so many aspects.
oh god this is eerily reminding of the voltron fandom..
5:32 yea the only real conclusion I can come to in terms of what Link did wrong was open Twitter to begin with.😂
So.. the dude who planned everything, hell.. the dude who created the show itself.. explains something that some smartbumm somehow can’t understand..
getting backlash from these smartbumm while there’s a whole lex sesbian scene in the show that dude created..
It's really just a "what about me?" thing. Babies complaining about everything who should stick to fanfiction instead of watching a story canon to the game universe. I'm sure they can't watch Lord of the Rings without shipping Sam and Frodo and if Tolkien was still alive he'd be labeled as a homophobic for not putting them together.
If they keep attacking the creators, they'll end up refusing to work on more projects because of that undeserved hate. The writers did a fantastic job with Jayce and Viktor
4:06 "Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone."
i hate how any strong bond between 2 characters (especially male) means that they love each other romantically. men are basically never allowed to express compassion to each other without having the label gay be tossed at them. i actually found jace and victor's relationship really cute and refreshing, because it shows what male platonic relationships can look like outside of traditional expectations of masculinity
Okay long rant session, and read through before attacking me.
If you think Season 2 is anywhere close to the mastery of Season 1 in terms of writing, character arcs, and agency, then I'm afraid I don't know what to say. Christain has received rightful criticism for his choice of words and general disregard for the main plotline. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Arcane and Caitvi, I mean I spent 2 years obsessing and waiting for S2 so I think I'm allowed to be upset they promised so many things and... didn't deliver it.
Firstly, arcane was sold and marketed as the story between 2 sisters, Vi and Jinx. They set up the oppressive conflict between Zaun and Piltover beautifully in S1, handling difficult topics like PTSD, BPD, family, privilege, etc. They even marketed S2 as being the peak of the Zaun and Piltover conflict where Zaun finally gets its long overdue apology from Piltover showcasing things like "You can rally the undercity", "you are a symbol", etc, and then all of this just gets pushed aside completely in the final act because we need to find magical demons and noxus. Piltover gave no apology for gassing and oppressing Zaunites for months but immediately asked for help from Zaunites, even asking them to put on enforcer uniforms. Even after the war, we don't see any active reforms going on, just Sevika got a seat in the council (and mind you there are still like 6 pilties and 1 Zaunite so not even fair). So my point is that if they didn't intend to resolve the two cities' oppressive nature, they shouldn't have marketed the story of arcane as such. For a story about two sisters, we sure didn't see any proper talk or reconciliation between them.
Secondly, Vi's arc. Imagine the main writer saying they just wanted to focus on other characters instead of the main character cuz they didn't know what to do for her arc. I know Christain wrote about her supposed "conflicts" but they're not even close to real conflicts and she had absolutely no agency this season. In s1 Vi and Jinx had been the main plot drivers, all of their actions and decisions directly affected the plot. (Vi choosing to raid Jayce's apt, Vi deciding to turn herself in, Vi going to save Vander, Vi ditching Cait & going after Sevika). In this season she had nothing. Vi didn't accept the badge, she was basically guilt-ridden into it, Vi confronted Cait but that didn't affect the plot at all (We saw Vi spiraling cuz of the fight but Cait had no visible plotline from it), Vi decided to free Jinx was also planned by Cait so again goes into her agency. The only reason agency she had was deciding to grieve Vander at the end, which resulted in their deaths. So yes I would people are rightfully pissed at the main character being kicked to the side to develop other characters.
Thirdly, Caitlyn. She was & is my favorite character & I was so excited to see the dark cait and her redemption arc that the writers kept talking about. Imagine my surprise when we literally didn't get any actual redemption arc or apology. Even if they didn't show cait apologizing for gassing the undercity, she at least should've verbally apologized for HITTING Vi before they got together. I understand microexperssions & know that her letting go of Jinx was supposed to her "redemption" but those two actions cannot cancel each other out. People accusing of her being a fascist is too far IMO, since the main player for ambessa but I cant blame since technically Caitlyn just got away with everything didn't she? They deserve to be together Caitvi,and I'm SO happy that they didn't fall into the bury your gays trope but GAWD was even a sorry too much to ask for instead of microexpressions. I'm MAD they messed up the character arc of one my fav characters and if they didn't plan a redemption they shouldn't have made her done something that needed redemption.
I have a lot more but this is getting too long. So I'll just name them, Hexcore storyline had way too much time, what was the point of Isha? Jinx deciding to break the cycle even tho she didn't create the cycle, I didn't like the implication of them writing that if you are mentally ill the only way is to walk away like???/ CAITVI sex scene in prison..., Not enough focus on Mel's storyline since Black rose is such a powerful and important organization, Ekko and Vi didn't even talk once.
As much as I have gripes with the writers (btw they fired a bunch of the writers from S1, it went from like 13 to 6 so that explains the poorly connected writing) I LOVE LOVE LOVE THE ANIMATION. They really absolutely slayed, ate, and devoured this season. No praise is enough for the Fortiche cuz they honestly outdid themselves this season.
I just want an arcane special where urgot take over zaun's crime syndicate forcing cait and vi seeking jinx while their child being manipulated by urgot
As an aroace I saw Viktor since the beginning as ace coded. I really don't know how some people argue that Viktor was in love romantically with Sky cuz... Have you seen the interactions between those two? Viktor was always more focused on his work, in his relationship with Jayce as partners/brothers/platonic soulmates idk, in sleeping in the lab. The thing is that the clues were there.
Oh and also, Viktor always calls her "Miss Young", like adressing a dearly beloved co-worker, even inside that pocket dimension of his.
It's annoying when you can't ship things in your little corner of the fandom peacefully bc the creator says something that makes all these (not always but often homophobic) dudebros comment under every single jayvik art and post about how "they are just brothers you people are weird" I never saw comments like these around s1 and now every platform is full of them. Everyone is acting like shippers have a problem with close platonic male relationships but let me ask this, why is them being queer or queer platonic cheapens their connection in the eyes of these people? - everyone can guess why.
All these people always going "why can't two dudes just be friends?“ as if people are drowning in canon gay representation....or what shippers who ship non canon relationships think has to affect them at all in any ways. You can just mute the ship tag and then you will not see the bigger chunk of shipping content that's properly tagged. People who are angry at shippers over shipping jayvik are just as insane as the weirdos who completely disregard caitvi as good representation. People seem to forge tthat it's possible to just hang out in the fandom with like minded people instead of always agitating people who see things differently.
I never care about canon bc shipping and fandom is not about canon. That's what the show is for. Fandom is about exploring things not explored in canon too amongst other things.
Also as an ace I'm tired of people who don't even understand how ace people work use asexuality as an excuse to be homophobic. It's also pretty interesting how mentions of Viktor being ace from the creator where nowhere to be seen until he got backlash over this. I don't think he is a homophobe, I don't think he meant to hurt anybody, I think he should be allowed to talk about his own characters without people getting rabid, but I wish he did it in a way that didn't make all these annoying people so brave to harass others who were just shipping and minding their own business for years.
All of this is so unnecessary and filled with really sensitive, butthurt people.
I just want those cut scenes
bro i thought people complaning about 1 hour cutted scenes bruh