Table Saw 101- Digital Angle Gauges- How To Woodworking
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- Why I don’t like to rely on digital angle gauges with my woodworking tools. I explain when and where I use these gauges, and what you should use to properly align your blades and fences.
Woodpecker square: amzn.to/2VhRd0O
Multi-angle gauge: www.leevalley....
blacktailstudi...
/ blacktailstudio
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1:39 ⌐_⌐ and both squares had a visible gap at the bottom (you can even see light from behind them through the gap at 1:47 quite clearly) because they contacted the top of the guide fence first, telling me that the fence is effectively canted inward toward your blade.
It may well not effect your work as you alluded to, but the angle block is actually correct in those instances because the fence is actually slightly leaning inward from 90 degrees.
2:21 So, you go to the effort of squaring the fence to the table, the angle block now reads 90 degrees exactly, and surprisingly enough your square is also flush to both surfaces.
I'm not going to say digital angle gauges are infallible, anything that is man made inherently includes man's limitations, but I think your video actually demonstrated that the gauges are plenty accurate and if anything helped you to identify that while your squares are indeed square, the fence was not square to the table, and once it was then all the devices started agreeing.
I absolutely agree with your observation. From my perspective I saw the same thing, and I think you're right that when he set the table fence to 90 degrees on the angle gauge, the square matched up flush to the fence, which just confirms the accuracy of the angle gauge.
You do have to spend some time setting the saw up... blade, fence, etc. But once done, the saw is great. Fairly compact which is Nice ruclips.net/user/postUgkxXh-4_3-ZT1fFWP91ZV7iVqzElr0lEb-a I did get an Incra Miter Gauge which takes some setup as well. The stock miter gauge can be adjusted in the miter slot with a little painter's tape... this tightens up the side to side play a lot.
i see a gap between both squares and the fence......1:47 in the video shows it really well. So the digital gauge is pretty accurate when it says your fence is at 89.5 degrees.
Saw the exact same thing!
Me too
Yes me too, the digital was accurate and his square was out!
He pushed the blade of the square against the fence lifting the base off the table at one end & pronounced the digital gauge as being out, but not his square! 😂😂
Crap happens- especially when your filming unfortunately!
Heck timber moves between summer & winter even after its kiln dried down to equilibrium moisture content, & how much the same species sawn from the same log varies, with whether it’s radial grain or tangential grain!
&
This guy is worried about + or - 0.2 of a degree?
What are you building a timber space shuttle? 😂😂😂
As my old man would say, “we ain’t building Omega watches, sunshine!” 😂😂
me three. you guys beat me to it
Yup, I saw it to
Home Depot squares are perfectly fine for 99% of woodwork needs. Pick out a square, stick it on a piece of plywood, draw a line, flip the square, draw another line next to the first. If those two lines track each other, it's good enough for woodwork. If not, pick out a different square. Those hundred dollar squares are for machinists who are milling precision parts. Save your money and buy that power tool you've been salivating for.
Exactly . I use mitutoyo, starret and b&s measurement tools with metalworking and the precision that gets you is nowhere close to what I need for woodworking. HD squares are fine for my wood - at least the type I do...
You said it all. We deal with wood which is flexible enough to absorb such small errors.
Rich Sobocinski I look forward to the day when I can blame a tool that is off by minute amounts for the mistakes in my projects. Right now I am thrilled when can make a drawer that doesn't bind.
@@MJCPeters hahaha!!! Same!!!!!
I bought the Klein digital level (the newer model). My Klein digital level has been very accurate, however if I use it to calibrate my bevel angle on my 12" Ridgid miter saw (blade : saw table) it matters where and which side of the blade you attach the level to using the magnets on the level. Always attach your dig level as close to the center of the blade as possible. The weight of the level makes the blade tilt slightly if you put it near the edge of the blade. If you keep it very close to the center the blade won't move tilt due to the weight of the level. On my saw if I attach it to the right side of the blade it causes the blade to tilt no matter where I attach it and I get a bad reading. If I attach it to the left side of the blade and near the center as possible, I get a steady reading and then I use the set screw to fine tune my bevel to 0.0. If I attach the level to the left side of the blade after I get it locked down, it will read 0.0 but if I attach it to the right side of the blade, for some reason the blade can tilt from the weight of the level and it will read 0.1-0.2 - no matter where I put the level so you just have to figure out where the steady spot is on your blade.
I have adjusted my lifestyle to accept a 0.2° error. There's always gonna be fussy people in the world, and Starrett will be forever grateful for their continued patronage.
Or people who are doing metalworking who need dead nuts on measurement. Absolute precision in Woodworking is nice, but far from necessary.
@@shirothehero0609 Until you don't do something where it's required. Last year because of Covid I started to make some stuffs with wood and hungarian zithers. When I had shown one of my zithers to a luthier he mentioned about some of my joints is great for a furniture but it have to be better for a musical instrument.
@@saxus Wood is never going to maintain it's dimensions even from one minute to the next due to temperature and humidity. It also compresses, making it impossible to get a precise reading. For luthier work, you do need higher precision than furniture making, but the tolerance is still way below what's acceptable for even low precision machining.
I’ve seen some pretty nice stuff made a hundred years ago, and there’s no way they had the accuracy of either. I think the important thing is to understand the error and how to compensate for it.
BTW, semi new subscriber, enjoying the videos and your work.
Some of the old optical based methods from a hundred years ago rival some of the new laser technologies. Optical autocollimators are used in measuring the surface flatness of surface plates down to 5 millionths (a quarter arc second). They did amazing stuff with remarkable precision, a hundred years ago they just used different tools.
Great observation and comment.
They absolutely had that accuracy 100 years ago. Check out gauge blocks, invented in the 1890s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block). Accurate to within a millionth of a centimetre. Lots of 80-100 year old machinist's tools are also still in use, and are and were easily accurate to 100 microns.
Probably you should learn the old techniques first. In the past you had a lot of specialized cuting, planing, marking and measuring tools, techniques which can provide similar precision. In old time, lot of woodworkers didn't buyed they tools, they made it, because had the knowledge to make a good square. Actually you have to know that even today to know how to check it is it still in square or not.
Now a lot of things was replaced by fancy machines and buyed tools. Not because everything is more accurate but productivity.
@@saxusit is not about either one. It's about money.
He's saying a $100 square is more reliable than a $25 digital gauge. That's fair, but how does it compare to a $100 digital gauge?
I can get better accuracy using a square and my eye than the $100 johnson gauge i got. Honestly probably faster to. These gauges seem to have a really shitty lag time or only register movements of .2/3 of a degree or more
@@zacheiriksson the lag time drives me NUTS. Set it exactly where I want it, wait ten seconds, then as soon as my hand starts going towards the gauge it jumps by .1 or .2 degrees.
As an Asian style woodworking hobbyist, I usually use the mortise-tenon matching method instead of measure it them separately. Since in most of the time, my tools are not deadly precise. For example when joining two boards, I clam two pieces together and hand plane the gluing sides into one surface instead of depending on deadly 90 degree jointer to make two perfect 90 degree surfaces separately. Besides, no matter how precise wood is milled, they will move very soon. In most of my working situations, flatting ,matching, stabilizing and smoothing can be achieved with a +-0.2 degree gauge.
I also use your method to check my digital angle gauge. Surprisingly, it is quite precise. It shows 90 same as my woodpecker square.
Asian style woodworkers are the best out there. So I’m sure you know your joinery 👌
Hmmm arithmetical slight of hand? Deliberate or just not thinking straight?
If the accuracy of the digital scale is +/- 0.2 and for example reads spot on 90 then the reality, at worst, is that is EITHER 89.8 or 90.2 not both!!! so is is not 0.5 of a degree out, It is .02 at worse.
And to, nit pick, even if your logic were true 0 .2 + 0.2 is 0.4 not the “half a degree out” that you sate. You have weakened your case by exaggeration.....
Further like others who have commented can you really eyeball .02 of a gap using your set square. On pause I believe I can see a light gap when you rest your 100% accurate square against the fence...
In any case I have never trusted either type of device entirely and suggest you consider the following test:-
Set your fence using your best set square and make a couple of cuts on a sample of wood from a current project (nothing special make this a test of the real world of wood work).
Then deliberately unset the fence and re-set it it using the digital scale and make another couple of test cuts on the same type of material. Now ask another person to check the angles..... I wonder what they will find .........?
Further leave the samples a week under normal workshop/household conditions and check them again. ..... How much would you wager on the readings all being the same as before.
It is the result in the piece of wood we cut that is the real criterion here. And there are more variables in blades, fence to blade parallel measurements, and above all in the natural variability in the behaviour of wood, than worrying about 0.2 of a degree.
BTW Still enjoyed the video and it did make me think about what I was measuring.
Mike Pearson thanks for all the words! Certainly a good read.
The video was exactly right on this point.
But if the digital readout is 90.2 the error can be anywhere from 89.8 to 90.2. Almost 1/2 a degree.
@@yrralyouincorrect. If the reading is 90.2 then it can range from 90.0-90.4. That’s what +\- means. But it can also be dead on 90.2 all day long.
Yeah, well, no, fine!?
(Warning! This comment contains rambling personal views which may offend sensitive woodworkers)
I bought a somewhat similar digital angle guage and eventually donated it to the local animal shelter because it was dang difficult to read. Firstly because it the one I bought didn't have a back-lit display. I literally had to use a flashlight to read it. Secondly because the display shows (for example) 95° as well as 85° as 85° i.e there is no indication from reading the numbers whether you have moved beyond vertical or still have to get there. There is a separate place on the display that you have to look at for that. And who needs that addled aggravation with both hands occupied with setting whatever you want to set while feverishly clutching a flashlight between your front teeth.
But those are design issues that can be resolved by being careful what you buy.
I tested that one for consistency by placing a pie dish with a ½" of water in the freezer overnight and using the resultant ice surface as a "perfect" flat. Rotating the device around its vertical axis and reading it from different angles gave a surprising degree of consistency - in fact it showed no errors at all.
In the meantime I had installed an "inclimometer" app on my smartphone and made a steady bracket to hold it in. I tested it the same way and got the same results (and for free). No waiting for delivery and no shipping costs either.
So as to the accuracy of such devices, my observation is that results in using them will more likely arise from the skill of the user than from the device itself.
Having said all that, to get to the question of how much accuracy does one need in woodworking?
My answer is "as much as your particular project needs". If you are making a sawhorse the a degree or two either way isn't going to make much difference to how it works. But making wooden gears for a clock is another thing altogether. I don't think that the topic lends itself to an "absolutistic" approach.
This philosophy should not become an excuse for sloppy work. My approach is to aim for as perfect a finish as I can get every time and to use every cut I make as an opportunity to do better.
Love your water into ice idea. Consider it stolen.
@@EscapeMCP
You are most welcome. You should experiment a bit. Depending on the depth of the water, the shape of the dish and other factors, you can get that the ice bulges up in the middle. I got around that by adding another 5mm of water on top of the ice and letting that freeze.
Have fun...
@@EscapeMCP
Hi,
I forgot to mention that you need to calibrate your inclimometer / level guage without moving the "ice floe" from the freezer as well as taking care not to disturb its position in any way while working on it in any way.
Why I only thought about adding this this morning is a mystery.
Thanks for doing this video. I've been thinking about a similar video, so it's nice to have someone else jump first, to see what people complain about. I learned at least a couple of things, which I'm sure you already know, and I'd be curious what other things you learned from the comments, that make you wish you'd done something differently?
1) Make sure to show and explain zeroing a digital gauge. I suspect you're kicking yourself over this one, but what can you do? Another time I wish we could edit YT videos.
2) Make it clearer up front that not everyone needs it this exact all the time, although I think if you *can* be exact, why not? But still, it would eliminate some of the negative comments.
3) One of the reasons I may not do this type of video is people want a comparison to other devices, and how much money do I really want to spend on a video like this? You probably feel the same way.
4) If there's a way to demonstrate what that difference actually equates to, as far as real life is concerned, that would be helpful. I wonder if cutting some wood then placing it against a perfectly 90-degree fence would have enough of a gap to show up on video?
Sorry for the ramblings, I'm just thinking out loud about whether this is a subject I want to address or not. I'm not sure I want to face the trolls over this subject, even if the points are valid. Keep up the good work!
Yeah, I think you make a lot of good points. I was amazed that so many people insist it’s based off of “level” and I figured common sense would realize that’s not the case. I also meant to demonstrate a glue up with several boards just slightly off. So if you do it, I think that would help people. I don’t think you’ll eliminate all the negativity, because so many people are just stuck in their ways.
its just amazing to me with all the tech we have no one can manufacture a perfectly straight square.
Great information. Since I started using a Starret square to calibrate all the equipment in my shop, my glue ups have been excellent. Thank you for posting.
once and for all there is no reason to buy a $90 square from woodpecker or starret for that matter. I have witnessed a lot of cases of the woodpecker squares being out. This is an example of prestige pricing like I have never seen. Go get yourself a machinist square for $20 if you want something accurate and be done with it. Want accurate measuring go get anything for metal working (what starret is known for) and they will be more than accurate enough for any woodworking and at a 10th of the cost...
Thanks for the tip!
how do you find an accurate machinist square for $20? The ones I've seen on amazon for that price all have a number reviews saying they're out of square.
Eye opener! I have two (2) of these and rely on them completely for setting angles on my TS blade and jointer fence (primarily). Going to cross check my 90's w/ my Woopecker 1281. Thanks for bring this to our attention!
Happy to help!
Must have lucked out and got a good one. Have used mine many times in the past year with no problems. Always double check known angle blocks and still right on.
William Allington that’s awesome!
I've heard the Wixey can have accuracy issues, so I got a Beall Tiltbox, which claims to be more accurate. Alas, I haven't used it much, but the few times I have, it seems to do pretty good. I also recently acquired a cheap set of WEN angle blocks, which I haven't had a chance to use, but those are another alternative to the digital gages/precision squares. My main reason for wanting these is to be able to cut oddball angles for things like stave construction or segmented turning.
Thanks for your comments about digital gauge mediocre accuracy. I’ve been annoyed with them as I require 90 degree accuracy for most of my work and find that I am daily checking my table saw for 90 degrees. I thought these digital gauges would make life easier ( I’ve tried 3 different brands) but they just frustrate the heck out of me instead. I thought it was me and learned that inexpensive ones just can’t deliver
I don't need the check my table saw blade every day. Even when I do it, it is still at 90⁰ after hundreds of cuts. That's because the table saw quality matters too. If you need to check it up every day (and make adjustments), you may very well need to replace some parts on your table saw or buy a good quality one. I own a good quality Grizzly hybrid table saw and never had that issue.
Even my 10-year old 10" Craftsman job site table saw keeps its settings after extensive use.
My final calibration is always done by actually cutting wood and measuring the angle. I find that even the best attempt to use a square does not give me a perfect 90. It usually takes me about 10 cuts to get my saws perfect but from then on I don't need to mess with it.
I make a lot of boxes with Mitered corners. I have never had such good corners as since I started to use the Wixey gauge.
Yeah I hear a lot of good things a about digital gauges.
The jury is still out. I think I might try my first project with digital and if I don't get the results I want then I'll try the method shown in the video
I'm going to get one....just to add to my options.
I made a cell phone holder that hangs perfectly flat on one side of my table saw blade, and downloaded a free leveling app. So far I've had zero issues with any angle of miter I cut while using this set up. All from scrap wood, and a free app.
Cremona said it well last year, it depends on the tolerances each person is fine with. If you cant see it in the finished product than its good enough (for me at least)
Totally agree!
Exactly that ^ !!!
More then one way to do almost anything and all woodworkers are different. It’s the finished product that matters most!
:)
close enough considering all the wood movement. different story if machining
I bought the $100 johnson gauge. It will tell me 90° and when i bump the saw to jostle it it will come back to 89.8.
At 45° ive found i can get better precision using a speed square and my eye than using the gauge
Liked the digital angle gauge video, but what I really liked was the case you had all your measuring tools in , mine will soon have a nice home like yours . And yes .2 degrees + / - is a lot when its so easy to be right on.
For sure
The only thing you convinced me, was to buy that so expensive but oh so great looking Woodpecker square ! Thanks for that video 👍
Cheers!
Good thing I just looked this video up right now for this exact reason! Almost bought one! lol.
I got you 👊👊
Thank you .. your explanation very good especially as you write some sentences when you speak. 👍👍👍
With woodworking these gauges are fine for me, I do a three check with it if I was really worried. As for 90 and 45, As I have some many squares around the shop I do find them easier to set up the angle.
I stopped using these tilt boxes years ago but for a completely different reason. I make a lot of stave builds and out of habit these don’t provide me with a hundredths place read out. You can imagine that if I’m trying to complete 360* then the readout being off even by a hundredths off it’ll throw the circle off. Then I realized years ago that it’s not so much the box, but a lot of the times it can be pitch on the blade, also the way the blade travels vertically. A lot of saws use a swing motion where the lift mechanism pivots on the front of the saw and that can have a huge impact. HOWEVER! These are great to get quick reference guides like you mentioned, especially if the angle doesn’t have to be exactly precise. If you’re looking to get precise angles for crazy glue-ups just use a good ole fashion protractor or an angle finder that can be used measuring off of the cast iron and not the blade, after all - you’re angle won’t matter at all if 0* or 90* isn’t relative to the surface you’re passing your boards through.
Totally agree! Great point on making the multi-side boxes.
The Starrette square I use is fantastic. I coughed up the few extra dollars after learning the hard way about cheap squares. On some projects when 88.6 degrees is good enough, I use the cheap box store squares, but when I really need accuracy, I can vouch for Starrette,
For sure!
Hmm, as a retired scientist/engineer we were always taught to know -and use- your measurements appropriately; and this includes the math of using them. So ... you make a good point here. I would want precision in making fine furniture, esp. glue joints for sure. As my father always said People may no see everything but they will notice so do your best and pay attention to the details. Question: Do you calibrate your $500 squares often ? (butt 2 together or flip one against itself?) Take care🙏 -Mike
p.s. I'm on a quest to enter your 1 Million Subscriber giveaway. hehe
p.p.s I saw this vid and having just bought a used 10" contractor saw set up as a 4' cabinet saw I was cosidering a digital angle gauge ... a woodturner doesn't need too great a precision in a table saw !!
Personally I have two Digital Angle gauges (different brands) and put then on and I calibrate my fence (or blade what ever I am working on) until both agree or put the error to the minimum, that is been working for me, Thanks for the Video very educative.
what you say is spot on. it depends on what you’re doing.
excellent video
YOU JUST CHANGED MY MIND FROM BUYING ONE. I AM GOING TO GET A CORNER ANGLE FINDER WHICH WILL DO TABLE SAW ANGLES JUST AS WELL. THANKS
I look at what I'm doing in the shop. Most of what I do is butt joints and simple 90s that can be half a degree off. I'm not making picture frames yet. I can still respect someone who drops 500 bucks for making sure they're getting the results that they want. Especially if you're doing this daily or weekly.
I think your statement is very true. For the home guy you don't NEED hyper accuracy. But if its your profession and you need repeatability and longevity then spend the money on the best tools out there.
I use a $300 angle grinder and home which most people think is excessive. But at work we use a $2500 grinder 😳
I wished I had the time mess about making vids but I find my day is taking up making things, tools everywhere and the shop aways needs cleaning 😂
Very well put together video ill take a look at your other stuff, thanks
It’s the worst carving time out for these. So much more enjoyable to just make stuff!
Woodglut scripts contain most of the woodworking plans you can find.
Cool ✌️
I've seen Starrett squares that are more than .2 off from one to another , never seen woodpecker squares to be able to compare one against another . where i used to work in the aerospace industry we had to have our tools calibrated every 30 days or sooner if they were bumped or dropped . they used a Faro arm and a flattened granite slab to check for out of square and would only approve them for use if they were +/- .0001 within the length of the square checked . if they didn't meet specs then they went back to Starrett for them to redo . Digital ones were only allowed to be used to check travel on movable parts with greater tolerances allowed .
Good to know! And yeah, any expensive square can still be off!
There are a number of things that can affect squareness of a jointer fence or table saw blade. First of all, a jointer fence (or table) might not be perfectly flat, so squareness would vary depending upon where you check it. Secondly, some people, like myself, can't see well enough to judge when the square is perfectly aligned with the fence or a blade. A blade could also not be true. I have found my Wixey digital gage to be at least as accurate as my eyeball and square setting ability. They are a bit difficult to use for adjusting, as it is quite a chore to get the adjustment right on the number you want. The only real way to know if your equipment is adjusted correctly is to make some cuts and see how they fit.
Totally fair! Sounds like some people have better digital gauges than me. Cause mine is a noticeable turn of the handwheel off of my squares. I like your point about making the cuts to find out where square really is though.
Eyesight is also a limiting factor for me. Sometimes I use a $10 speed square and an automotive feeler gauge.
I have that Wixey angle finder and use it when I need a 45 or something in between on the table saw. I find it to be plenty accurate enough for me. The reality is that it's probably never really going to add up to .5 (.4?) off. More likely it will be somewhere between dead on accurate to .1 or .2 off. Let's not forget that wood moves too right? I mean at some point you have to go with the flow a bit and admit that accurate enough is accurate enough when we are working with a material like wood. I'm sure I can introduce .1 of angle (and more) by simply pushing too hard on one side or the other as I feed the saw anyway! Hell, when I first got my Starrett it was completely square but I tested it a couple months later only to find out it was no longer in square and needed adjustments.
I've done a ton of miters on the table saw and used the Wixey to get my 45 and the joints have always come together great. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe the error is too small to make a meaningful difference when all other things are considered.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I dont think these digital gauges are specifically designed for 90 degrees, they are designed so you can set to any angle
?
I wonder if 90° would be one of "any angle"
@@hamaljay it sure would, and im sure it would do a fine job finding it too
Without reading all the comments did any one mention something my dad called reverse jointing. Basically if you have three boards to glue up the two outside boards you joint board face away from jointer fence the middle board joint bothh edges board face to jointer fence. Extrapolate for as many boards as you are gluing. This method eleminates or rather absorbs any error in your set up. This was just something i always took for granted most folks knew. Hope this is helpful. Enjoy the work
That would make a great video in itself!
A couple things that have seen addressed. One is quality of saws. How true is a saws arbor. If your using a portable job sight type saw that’s not as accurate as a new top of the line cabinet saw then there can be quite a bit of difference in tolerance. Also blades, have you spun the blade 180 degrees and see if the is any change. How old is the blade, has it gotten hot from pushing hardwood through to fast. Just exactly how flat is the wood your cutting. Now most of the time we’re talking thousands I know. But it all adds up. Bottom line, use what works for you and fun doing it. My 2 cents
Good tips!
Right, the damn wood moves more then that but there you go........
Is the gauge zeroed on the table or on true level? It seems like .5 degrees is a bit much to chalk up to an inaccurate gauge? I have a digital gauge similar to this and it has proven to be pretty darn accurate!
Zeroed on the table. Life would be tough if our floors had to be level!
Digital inclinometers require a quality reference that you zero to for both zero and 90. Without a quality reference to zero to your always going to be off more than the expected uncertainty in the measurement. I feel it's worth it the spend more for a digital inclinometer that has less uncertainty. I also agree that you should always use a trusted quality square when squaring a fence or a blade. The uncertainty in a quality square is a tiny fraction of a degree, off the top of my head it's something like +-0.001 or basically the machining tolerance.
I’m ok with that. It’s like people worried about a few thousandths. Wood working is not that precise.
I agree, the only person it would infuriate is a maths teacher 😂😂😂
I've used these, like you said for arbitrary angles and they work well. More recently though I've used them to set up my band saw. It did just fine. But I agree wouldnt use one of these to set the presets on a table saw or jointer.
For sure. I’d definitely use it on a bandsaw too.
Feel free. It works with any number of boards. I found putting an x on alternating board faces then always being able to see the x as i joint worked well. The only down side i ever found was when grain just would not cooperate and tearout would occur. Not a common problem but given desired face and end grain orientation it can throw an annoying wrench in the gears.
I would do it as you as well, but even squares made out of metal with high prices have a tolerance, just like the digital meter. I used to work with navy metcal and we checked for calibration of squares and flat guides that were made out of metal or solid surface or stone. Those items had to be checked on a regular basis, the cal cycle depended on the type, manufacturer and was based on historical data, so nothing is in cal one time and never needs checked again and everything comes with tolerances. Tight tolerance means more money so its efficient to determine how much you need or how much variance your project can tolerate. I would ask, if your cheap square is always matching your expensive square, then why did you purchase it?...and as others noted, it appears like there were some light showing through the squares and then we must ask, are our eyes calibrated LOL
This comment might bump the algorithm a bit. I was taught to use the edge of the blade on my square instead the of flat part of the blade. Turning the square at a slight angle gives you a finer line to visually inspect better.
In all honesty, if I ever get to the level of woodworking where this is an issue, I’ll be happy.
Is the ability to check a square for square against itself just a completly lost skill set. How do you know the square you used to check your square is square? Hook a square on something straight. Strike a line. Flip said square 90° strike a second line with the point closest to you being the stsrting point for both lines. Any amount out of 90° is doubled at the far end of your two lines furthest from you. Sorry if confusing I have never written this out only showed it people. Good luck and remember enjoy the work
Yup! That makes sense. I happen to have two square, so I just get lazy I guess.
Agreed - I periodically check all my squares like this - some only ever get used for outdoors work !
Oddly enough learned that in a cabinet shop using a framing square. The other less reliable check is to 3 4 5 a framing square. Mehh close enough for framing especially when you can 3 4 5 whatever larger outdoor project or larger shop projects.
My dad was a woodworker. This was the first thing he taught me. I was 8 to 9 yrs old.
Good video. Regarding if it's good enough, it depends on who you are and what you're making. Some people may not care about imperfect glue lines with the thought that they are going to sand and or plane it anyway. For things that may compound on themselves (like picture frames do) a .2 error would be very noticeable. I don't own one of these so I can't say too much. I do own some woodpecker squares and have found them to be very accurate.
Yeah, I think I didn’t clarify that enough in the video. One edge of a table being off by .2 isn’t a big deal. But 10 boards glued up (or a picture frame) is where it’s quite noticeable. Well said!
Don’t do it for a living anymore, but square is square. Just out of square doesn’t count as square in my book. If it’s not going to help me turn out the best product possible or ends up making things more difficult and frustrating to complete, I don’t want it around. The exception you mention was a valid one.
Thanks, and agreed!
For digital gauges to work, the tool has to be perfectly level from the floor up. If your tool is on a angle at the floor, the angle will be off greatly when finding the square for a fence
I resiliently learned to use a router tale to get those perfect 45% angles for glue ups. Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency of those gauges.
I’ll need to learn that method!
What is a router tale?
gerard fallon maybe google it?
@@BlacktailStudio ruclips.net/video/L4bI-uNqblo/видео.html&lc=z22wfbzhzoqjxhymyacdp43a2ew11yy430bylvgx3y5w03c010c.1551187241961836
check out guyswoodshop
@@BlacktailStudio chamfer bit
This test isn't fair, your comparing a 120$ square to a 20$ digital angle finder. They make more accurate digital angle finders. I've seen them as accurate as +/- 0.01 which is deadly accurate.
Good point!
Please, leave a link to one of those high precision digital angle finders! I would like one.
Inexpensive and very accurate solution: For my table saw, to set 90 deg, you don’t need either expensive squares or electronic gauges. I use 2 pieces of hardboard that are laminated to 3 layers thick to provide dimensional stability. They are dimensioned 14” x the max cutting height of my blade (on an old 10” Unisaw). Importantly, mark them to keep track of the orientation of each. Using your bevel gauge, run them through the saw to just lightly trim one end at full blade height. Key point here is to gang cut them. The test of square is to then place each piece with the cut ends on a clean, flat surface, and orient them with the edges that were down on the table saw are against each other. This doubles the error. Backlight it. If there is a gap at the top, you need to move your blade counterclockwise, and vice-versa. You can get it within a couple of thousands of an inch over the length of the pieces which is very good for precision woodworking. Replace the boards when they eventually get down to about 12” long. .... for the jointer, square really doesn’t matter if you run your project boards through such that you have the top face of one board against the jointer fence and the top face of the other is away. The angle inaccuracy cancels out on the glueup. You do, however, need to keep track of what piece was oriented which way. That being said, I do keep mine as close to square as I can get! .... For 45 deg on the table saw, you can do something similar and check against a good square to see how close you are to making 90 deg with the cut faces against each other. That’s essentially a test cut which you should do anyway. .... BTW, I do have Starrett squares (12” and 6”) as well as an electronic gauge and I totally agree with your comments!!!
Thanks!
While that works pretty well, it is an overkill method. That's why people invented and created tools and devices to ease the work and still achieve great results.
There are multiple ways to achieve the same result, some ways are easier than others, some are more accurate, some are just too complicate.
I appreciate your video. As a full time woodworker my response is it depends on the build (as you pointed out). There are times where absolute precision is a must- and times where there is a small degree of give. Of course a build is either square or not square. No such thing as “sorta “ square :-)
For sure!
unless you are a builder, then square has a different meaning as does level.
I think the digital gauges are a good step up over a a Home Depot square, within a reasonable price. They are what, $30, give or take? The vast majority of us, if we are just at the point of upgrading from a home store square, aren't about to drop bank on a Woodpecker, yet. Hell, I have been selling stuff for 2yrs and my "nicest" measuring tools are a 6in PEC blem combo square, and an iGaging digital gauge. I don't have a jointer, and have to do all my edge jointing with the table saw, or router, though mostly the table saw, and honestly I have never had any serious issues gluing up panels. One day I will get high end measuring stuff, but I think it is a bit much to discourage people from using them, given that most of your viewers are likely people who have jobsite saws, and other tools where getting high end accuracy, that even stays put, is going to be a struggle with, or without, a Woodpecker square.
My recommendation is to buy an angle gauge until you are at a point where you are serious enough, or rich enough, to buy a Woodpeckers square. The gauges are better than cheap squares, of that I have no doubt from my own experience.
Woodpecker Tools are essentially Festools of the hand tool world. They're novelty items with gimmicky features, and most of those features are glorified convenience items and not necessities. No question they have some innovative tools, but for the price they're asking, you're better off using that cash for another tool. Or, buying 2 tools instead of 1 Woodpecker tool. A simple speed square for $100+? For those naive enough to buy one, I have some beachfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.
Nice demonstration. I've never really thought about getting one of these gimmicy things always used a try square or pertractor on a trial piece first. Like you say buy good quality tools they'll last you a lifetime. Check your squares against each other on the machine table.I'm not a big fan of the sliding rule type for checking accuracy seen too many inaccurate ones even the good quality makes.
You don't need to buy expensive squares. You just need to know someone who has one that you can compare your cheap squares to. I found that 2 of my harbor freight squares are dead on.
I think the screw tight square can easily end up out just as much, fixed square not so much, though that depends on its treatment too.
I have had no success with the digital gauge. Thanks for bringing attention to the issue. I thought I was not using it correctly.
What digital angle gauge did you have?
Thanks, very good video.
The electronic gauges are just fine for woodworking. If i was making a Rolex watch then i would agree
Thanks for the input!
Completely agree. And woodpeckers squares have been known to be off. Also, visually looking at a the square is not that accurate. You won't be able to see the .001-.005 which would be about .1 degree off. You need feeler gauges if you want to be that accurate.
Aaron Frasco you don‘t see it, but you can feel if the square is wiggling. Also, even “just” for woodworking, a perfect 90 degree angle is important. If you glue up a tabletop consisting of 10 pieces of wood and your jointer is off by .2 degrees, that makes 8 joints times 2, because you’re now joining two crooked pieces together, and suddenly they all add up to 3.2 degrees. So now your tabletop has a radius right from the start. Sure, if you flip over every other piece they even out, but first off, you don’t know if the grain allows for that and you wouldn’t know that they’re crooked because you think your boards are square.
Trust me, it does make a difference. When cutting miters to make a 90 degree corner, you notice if the saw was set to 44.9. That’s why you always cut with 45.1 degrees and use a square for glue up to make sure the miter is closed on the outward facing side. Luckily, I can use a saw with built in digital adjustment.
@@sejoki1 hahaha 0.2 degree? you still cut it with your hands. If you cut 50 pieces you will press every single one against the fence by the same force? And what if jointer knives are damaged a bit somewhere and leaving a mark on your board, when you lift it against fence will that mark move it out of square for that 0.2? How often you sharpen hour knives man?
I think the takeaway is to do a couple a measurements and take the average, if you need that level of accuracy, but + or - 0.2 actually seems really precise for a tool that cheap and user friendly.
Yeah! They are amazingly accurate for $30. Just important to know their limitations. If it’s not a glue joint it’s probably fine.
Square is one of the most important aspects of building anything. Knowing your tools and having confidence in them is the basis on which consistency is built. 1 in 5 is not good enough for me but it may be for others. If that is the case keep filling your joints with epoxy and glue.
For sure
I have the same wixi gauge and use it all the time for 45 and returning back to 90 and also returning back from a dado stack.
Several times you didn’t zero the gauge. And also don’t forget the gauge is just a fancy level so even when you zero it if your table or jointer isn’t perfectly level it may show on the wixi.
Glad it works well for you!!
I own an old scarlet square that was out of square for a while... I eventually just wrapped sandpaper around a card scraper and sanded down the two points the ruler sits in inside the housing and fine tuned it. I do believe owning a high quality square is important... but you can use it to check "cheaper" squares and tools around the shop. Having accurate, reliable tools makes any job or task less frustrating 🤓
Well said!
I trusted a digital gauge once and then when I got home one night it had stolen my television and ran off with my wife 😐
😂
and I miss my tv
To answer your root question, I personally prefer a mechanical square rather than their electronic counterparts. But there is much more to setting up machinery fences (and other parts of the machine which affect the outcome of the wood being machined) than what you're suggesting here. Let me explain...
The most accurate method to set up machinery is not to rely on squares or gauges, but to measure the actual piece of stock you have machined with the machine you're setting up. Using the jointer as an example, let's assume for sake of argument that the knives are sharp, correctly set parallel to the two tables and very slightly higher (.002") above the outfeed table to compensate for the radial arc of the cutterhead. Okay, now go ahead and set up your fence using whatever gauge or square you feel most confident it being accurate. Once done, run a stable, properly dried plank at least 3" square and at least 2' long through the jointer until the first face is as flat and true as you can get it. Then holding that "true" face against the fence, joint the adjacent face a few times until you're really happy with the results. THEN, take out your most accurate square and measure the outcome. Don't be surprised if there is a difference between what the angle of the wood is and that which the same square measures, because there are several things at play which can affect the outcome. The most important one is how truly co-planer the two tables are to each other and how accurately the knives have been set. It really takes very little for a difference to be felt.
Sorry if I've gone beyond the parameters of your original question, however I think it's important that woodworkers understand that there's more to setting up a machine than angling the cutterhead, sawblade, or whatever else is doing the machining.
Very thorough! Thanks for taking the time to write that.
A high quality square is always nice. That is reason enough to buy one.
You may not need it every time, but when it has to be right you need the right tool
Agreed!
Coffee table for give away. Also really like the change up of wood. Do you think cedar wood for a table wood look good?
The digital levels are awesome for a number of things you can't do with a square. Level for one. At a known angle to another surface for two.
If you have a known accurate reference square and that answers the need then go for it, but these digital levels can do so many more things...
Have two pieces of steel to weld square and the bottom one is at 2deg in situ? No problem. Set the other one to 88 and you are done.
Can't fit a square into the space? Digital level is only a couple of inches across... no problem.
Sick of having your square sitting against carbide insert teeth on your saw blade confounding your measurement? Stick the magnet base to the blade disc and you are away.
Can't get your head aligned to eliminate parallax error? Doesn't matter with a digital tool.
Horses for courses.
Good tips!
I did not notice the gap between the fence and the two precision squares that others saw, but I did see something else that bothers me about this argument.
When the fence was adjusted to make the digital gauge read 90°, there was about a ten mil gap between the 5-inch mark on the square and the top of the fence. When I calculated the offset angle from those two numbers, it was only 0.11°.
But that was 5 inches from the base. You're not likely to edge glue two 5-inch thick boards. You're generally working with 3/4-inch boards or less. At 3/4-inches away from the pivot point (way down near the bottom of the fence), the offset distance will only be 0.0015 inches.
The wood will swell more than that once the glue hits it. The worst-case scenario, with the digital reading off by 0.2°, yields an offset of 0.0026 inches.
In other words, in general, the slight error due to the tolerance of the digital gauge is insignificant to a woodworker.
Thanks for the feedback!
I mostly use hand tools. It blows my mind at the levels of accuracy demanded by modern techniques.
Not demanded by the techniques, but by the people. Man, I dig some of these gizmos, sure, and my caliper can do 1/1000 of an inch which is neat. None of it is necessary; as a newbie I'm probably going to fuck up the cut, anyway.
Aim small miss small. I'd rather aim for a thousandth of an inch and miss than aim for 1/8th and miss.
@@pragmatictwitch I started using a dial caliper for building R/C airplanes in the early '90s. It's MUCH easier to hit the center of a firewall or other piece with a caliper and a calculator than a ruler.
Makes me feel a lot better about buying a 1281 last week, that's for sure.
Oh good!
Helpful video! For the casual hobbyist-probably not; for someone who makes fine furniture-sure, +/-.2 is a mile.
Agreed!
I have several Sterrett squares of various sizes and configuration. They are essential to fine woodworking. Everything begins with a good square and a sharp pencil.
I was surprised and disappointed at the Lack of accuracy of the digital version. I have been wanting one of these... specifically for angled tablesaw blade set up, for quite some time. I guess it's back to old school set ups.
Yeah, some people on this thread say there are super accurate digital ones... but people on threads say a lot of things I guess.
Good info but... even 0.2 degrees is more than accurate enough for all but advanced hobbyist, semi-pro, & professional wood workers on small parts.
For the most part, digital gauges are not generally used to find 90 degrees... but are generally used as a more accurate angle guide for table saw / miter saw where an in-between angle is needed. Some digital gauges claim an accuracy rating of +/- 0.1 degrees and there's also a digital angle gauge that claims an accuracy of +/- 0.05 degrees DXL360. However, for the price difference & what I need, 0.2 degrees off is fine.
Depends. Coming from an engineer, .2° varies quite a bit depending on the thickness of the wood you are cutting.
Digital gauge maybe accurate but the problem may be its small footprint that attaches to the fence. Any specks or a slight wave on the surface could have more dramatic effect on it compared to a foot-long square that "sees" the whole length.
Good call
Not fair comparison....!! So my issue with your video is that you talk and treat all digital instruments as if they're the same and have the same performance, tolerances, and specifications.
Furthermore, you make a point to talk about quality differences in squares and claiming some are better than others but fail to due the same for the digital.
You basically compared to a NASCAR gasoline racing car against a electric Chevrolet volt.
A fair comparison world be to compared the $35 digital (I have the exact same one and that's what I paid) to a plastic Square or go buy a $200-300 plus angle finder and then compared to your woodpecker square.
Anyways, I'm going to consider this just a paid ad for a woodpecker at this point.
It wasn’t a paid ad, but thanks for the feedback! I actually like my Starrett a little better. Which is why you saw me use it more in the video. Thanks for the comment though, I appreciate the feedback!
I do like woodpecker products though.... :)
@@DerekAndersonMinnesota Since when does a plastic square cost 35 buck? Huge exaggeration and you come off as full of shit. There are 35 dollar squares out there that are proven to be just as accurate as starretts but the fit and finish isn't as good. I won't brand name drop since you like to whine and cry about paid ads.
I said a $35 digital....
@@DerekAndersonMinnesota So you comparing a 35 dollar digital tool to a 1 dollar plastic one is as "fair" as him comparing your 35 dollar tool to his 90 dollar one? Gotcha.
I have a 2 dollar speed square I bought a million years ago that is dead on accurate. I also have plastic draftsmans triangles which are perfectly accurate that cost me 6 bux for a whole set of them. I paid 30 bux for one of the digital gauges and never found it faulty yet although I will be checking into it after seeing this video. I get emails from woodpeckers frequently because they are affiliated with one of my woodworking magazines but I wouldn't buy their products if I won the lottery. I'd be ashamed to be seen holding one of them. A fool and his money are soon parted.............
Errr, thanks! (?)
I "resemble" that comment I have fooled out a huge pile to WP tools. I love every one of them and take great pride in ownership and using them.
You can get engineering squares and reference tools for setting up your machines as long as you take care of them. Most of them are not inexpensive but there are a few bargains out there
Just out of interest, did you calibrate yours before you took the 90 deg measurement? You didn't say in your video. On my one, it says that before you (say) want to check an angle, you should firstly calibrate it to the horizontal surface you'll be measuring off and zero the device. You then need to turn it through 180 degrees. Only after this is done should you then check check an angle.
Did you assume zero runout of the blade? Did you re-cal gauge to table and was the square set in the same spot on the table? Do you believe one square is perfect or if two agree both are perfect? The accuracy of gauge is .1 degrees at 90, not .2. Is any of your wood perfectly straight such that less than perfect 90 matters?
Great video and did not think about the variances in digital gages. Guess I need to break out the wallet and get some quality squares.
I don't own a digital gauge. Always have used my Sterret square, but I worked in a tool room so I'm anal about woodworking. That also makes me slow as mud.☹
Yeah, not fun to buy but necessary!
Kinda makes you wonder how anybody made perfectly square projects before the advent of digital gauges? Wait! They didn’t, it is wood for crying out loud. Still, 89.800 degrees is a good start. Yes, a $90.00 square is perfect and I have referenced my magnetic digital gauge off the square directly and 8 out of 10 times they agree perfectly. The other 2 times it may be 89.9 or 90.1. Another reason I try not to tilt my blade ever.
david porter for my stage of woodworking 89.8-90.2 is damn near perfect.
@@BlacktailStudio I've got a 5" since bar that I haven't used while wood working😁. But I have used my 10" height set. It's vernier scale. Use it so I don't forget how to read a vernier scale.
Depending on the work 0.2 even 0.1 is too much , I don't have one like this but the other one that unfolds. I believe the best possible way but I haven't done it yet is : take a laser and put/glue it inside a square wood block , find the corner you want and then place the laser on to the saw blade , mark with a pencil on to the roof for the most used degrees and then reset with the laser every time , that way if for example the mark is two meters away you get 0.03 accuracy for each mm
That’s a serious method!
i use the ball bearing and grease method for angle accuracy, good enough for machining good enough for wood
Don’t know that method... I’ll have to look it up
When making an end grain cutting board that half a degree can really make a difference.
I bet!
Did u zeroed the gauge with the jointer base before?
Did you NOT watch the video?
Well, just like there is a difference in the accuracy of a home depot square vs the woodpecker one, there are different accuracy digital gauges.
That’s a great point! I would love to look into a quality digital one.
Square is the best way for a 45-degree angle or 90-degree angle.
But, if you need a 33-degree angle or 127-degree angle, only digital angle gauges can do it.
Anyway, who cares if it's 89.9 or 90.1...
Yup, this is really just a personal call for each woodworker. Sometimes close enough is good enough 👍🏼👍🏼
It's hard to use a right angle gauge on those table saw inserts and get a good measurement. Been using the digital now and happy with it.
These most likely work with a gyroscope. So the degrees are compared to gravity, not the surface of your machine. Your fence might be 90, but your table may not be level (it probably definitely is in your case ;) , but I wanted to point that out for the record). This also means they are susceptible to drift (the gyro in your phone also has it) and it might help to calibrate them before use (if that’s even possible). Though if it really is only right 1/5 times.. that’s pretty bad :) good video. Thanks
As long as the drift is the same at all angles, it will disappear when you set the 0 (which he does several times in the video). You do have OT make sure that you don't flip your angle gauge around as you will then have error that is double the offlevelness of the table.
Any square can be upgraded to finer precision with another square and a file.
True!
what if the square checked against is off ? , for my home use i just use the square to mark a fine line with a razor then flip the square over and check it against the razor mark . I have never found one that was perfect in a 12 inch square which is all i own but i have 1 that is very very very close and one that has a gap at the top of the square .
I've been keeping Dad's framing square alive for the 30 yrs I've had it.
If I were calibrating for the machining of close tolerance parts, like internal combustion engines, then the digital gauge is not to be considered, but what the heck, this is woodworking and normal wood movement exceeds the published tolerances of the gauge.