39:25 I’d just like to say that tearing apart families and sending the kids to the church has been done, and I’d like Kenton to ask any indigenous person how well that works out for anyone involved
Even in modern day, that's what cults do! The channel Cults to Consciousness has hours upon hours of examples of this very behavior, including in sects of the IBF.
christians always tell me that god gave humans freedom of choice and that you will only go to heaven if you come to jesus by your own choice.... So, by them forcing people to follow jesus, isn't that going against god's plan?
This guy’s argument is just “yes, our goals would harm a great many people, but they’re sinners and deserve to be harmed. Therefore this is good for society”
@@keithwiebe1787 he doesn’t see it as harm, I think. He has assumed a worldview that love can be expressed through violence and deprivation, and he does this in order to justify the reality that his goals go against Jesus’ most central message.
As a person of faith-- wow I just cannot stand these people lol They want State Theocracy, of what value is faith regarding freedom of choice if it is forced upon others like Islamist societies? They aren't choosing Islam they are forced into it and it has no value faith wise if that is the case because faith has to be a choice someone makes and if they choose otherwise.... their right in a free society and that's where it is and anyone who disagree's is not only a terrible human being but a complete moron.
36:20 I love how Kenton defaulted to "two gay men" in the genderless example Tim gave. Just goes to show where their priorities really are. Thanks for putting up with him Tim. You're a much better person than I am, my eyes would've rolled out of my head by this point lol
You're gracious, cause for me the host infuriated me. I understand he has a clear bias going in but I wish he'd have shown it less. Bless you, Tim. Your work is important and not everyone is open to sitting down for the conversations as you are. And thank you for the position you took on abortion as they tried to bate you, you handled that excellently.
When you put the words Christian and Nationalist together, you get a nationalist who believes God has given him the right to tell everyone else how to live their lives. How do they not see the anti-biblical irony in that.
I really enjoy middle of the workday, too. My evenings are reserved for time with my spouse and our toddler. It's great to listen to you while I'm getting work done!
Thank you Tim I left the evangelical church in 2018. It hurt way too much to watch people I looked up to trade Jesus for power. Ugh! I don’t understand how Christian Nationalist can’t see that the power that they seek will not only harm society but it will destroy the church (what’s left of it). If the law could save us we wouldn’t have a need for Jesus, salvation, forgiveness, or redemption. What happened to the passage where satan offered Jesus all the splendor of all the kingdoms. Jesus rebuked satan. He came because we needed Him. Not because He needed power.
If you happen to live in the United States, the nationalist and civilizationist ideology is recurrent identity politics. Systematized organization of the State according to a "Christian Moral/Cultural Order". In the 19th century, Christianity was a civic religion in the US. At least, at the State level. Entire generations were raised on the notion Christianity should interfere in politics. It went as far as sermons trying to justify slavery. Eg. “Exposition of the Views of the Baptists” (1823) by Rev. Dr. Richard Furman, South Carolina. In the early 20th century, there would be a modernist movement, specifically one that was in part inspired by the reconstruction era. Again, Christian Nationalists, like William Jennings Bryan, would resist. Particularly the modernist theology in Evangelical churches (acceptance of Darwin's theory of evolution, and higher criticism). Note how the needle moved. William Bryan was absolutely an abolitionist. But he inherited from the older Christian Nationalists the nationalist identity politics.
As someone who became an atheist out of disgust with what fundamentalism has done to religions, Tim you are a breath of fresh air. We obviously don’t agree on theology, but love to hear your takes on Christianity
As a bisexual Christian, even though I did marry a man, that comment about breaking up the gay family unit is terrifying. Thinking I could have ended up with either spouse at the moment legally raising kids in a loving home. Jesus also promoted free will, how can they say the state should have the authority to dictate our lives? People are meant to come to God in their revelation in free will, not be forced by a handmaids- tale society.
@Lovegainers5 Get out of here with that bullshite. I love God, He loves me, my relationship with my creator is personal between He and I and not your business.
@@emmadear3276 You may love a god, but it is not the God of the bible, nor the Father of Jesus. A Christian follows Christ. Please use a different term to describe your religious beliefs, it is not Christian no matter how much you want it to be.. Have a nice day.
Personally I love the time you have been posting the lives. It works great for me because it’s the middle of my work day and gives me something to listen to and help me focus through the rest of the grind. But obviously I’m just one person, and I’ll be listening regardless if I can do it live or later on. Great content as always, looking forward to the next one!
What I find funny about people like "therightcorner" saying you are not Christian, is that it has the opposite effect. Atheists like me see/hear that, and think, 'Yep Christianity is all about hate, I better stay away.' People are being driven out of the church by these people. Whereas, I could see fellowship and community with Christians that love their neighbour.
When the guy says that two gay guys living together in marriage would be committing adultery every day, he seems completely unaware of what adultery was: *wife stealing.* Adultery was depriving a man of his *property rights* - the woman he owned or was about to own (cringe at women being considered property). Exactly what wife are two gay guys stealing? Exactly what husband was being deprived of his property? And... adultery in the bible is always a violation of a *marriage,* but he doesn't believe those guys even have a marriage! I know that's not the largest facepalm of the discussion. It's just what I saw before I pause watching for now.
Just caught the end and boy was that triggering to listen to LOL but seriously, it was like trying to reason with an abuser. In the future, instead of allowing them to keep dragging the conversation in so many different directions and deflecting from your questions with more with questions and no answers, maybe you could try saying to them, let's finish discussing this first and then we can discuss that.
Based on his logic and debate approach of asking questions to get a "gotchu" there's not much difference between him and red pill men who are trying to argue someone down into agreeing with them.
I got drawn into a conversation about how there is a 3 part division to the law, and it is literally nonsense. "Oh well some laws were not given to us so we don't have to follow them" Okay, but who makes that distinction?
There is a difference between teaching people to follow Yeshua and compelling them through the force of Law to follow Yeshua. I am not told by Yeshua to become the police over the world for the sake of a Christian nation.
Yes - this is the reason why I consider Christian Nationalism to be lazy and impatient evangelism. For that reason, it's never going to produce the right fruit.
When Kenton immediately references the Bible even after you established this wasn’t a debate about whether Christian nationalism is biblical… *sigh* That’s when I knew this man has not been outside his bubble enough. That he, to use a biblical metaphor, has a veil over his eyes (and cotton in his ears), so he can’t/won’t understand and engage in the world outside of his own terms. Like so many, he leans on his and his community’s own understanding. I’m not sure how much of this I’ll be able to get through. The well-meaning conservatives ignorantly dabbling in Christian nationalism can be embarrassing. The ones who more fully embrace their bigotry are maddening. Many are both. Edit at 14:08: I think I found out how long I can handle watching this. Very much not long. 😓
I'm not quite halfway through, but I think one issue is that there were widely different definitions of what "beneficial to society" means. You mean, "Encourages the flourishing of the most people." He means, "Matches what I believe the Bible says based on the interpretation of those who believe like me." Feels like y'all are speaking different languages. Also, I notice he keeps doing this thing where he tries to ask you thoughtful questions but really they're not actually that thoughtful.
1:00:22 he might ALMOST have…not a point but at least a coherent argument if he was saying that a Christian Nationalist would be against universal healthcare in a non-Christian nation, but that of course once we adopted a Christian Nationalist framework that everyone would be provided with healthcare He instead stated VERY CLEARLY that, ideally, a gay man with HIV would be arrested for crimes against god, then denied care while being imprisoned by the state, left to die painfully and needlessly of a treatable illness. This isn’t even the typical fucked up evangelical definition of “Christian love.” That would be some trauma bonding BS taking advantage of this man while he was in a bad place, offering him medicine in exchange for opening his heart to god. But somehow this is MUCH more horrific even than that.
Which Bible? (Catholics have a different one). Which translation? Which theology? “God’s moral law is universal.” Then they support Trump. Christian nationalism, to put it theologically, is from the pit of hell.
It seems like he is just stating scripture without context or meaning. Sharing the gospel is good but we shouldn't try to control people through the gospel/bible.
As difficult as it was to watch, it was helpful to hear Christian Nationalist arguments and figure out where they are coming from. I COMPLETELY disagree with him, but now I know how they are "interpreting" Scripture. Thanks for the video, Tim!
Hey Tim, I really think this was a great debate and the only critique I have is the pushback on objective morality. There are views of moral realism that doesn’t rely on theism.
Hi Tim, I think you did a really good job overall, but I had this playing while I was driving and was fighting tears (while also having just had salty slush splashed across my windshield, and I currently have no wiper fluid, so I didn't need a double obstruction. In order to be able to keep driving safely, I tuned out the video (wasn't going to take my eyes off the road to pause lol), and I really focused only on trying to see where the heck the road was between the streaks on my windshield and the snow and ice coating the road, and I also focused on trying to think of answers on what you asked us as the audience for, points where we think you could improve in the future. First, I think you did an amazing job overall, and the amount of critiques I have is more reflective of how much emotion this evoked for me, and possibly the other person's relative lack of skill, especially my more general critiques. This brings me to my first general critique: since Kenton is so much weaker in certain ways, I feel like it might have been better to try to force the conversation to jump less, although I definitely understand why that was difficult! I loved how often you returned to the words of Jesus, especially "love your enemies", healing the sick, and the condemnation of the wealthy exploiting their workers, and I would have to have seen you do it even more! I know that technically wasn't the "thesis", but since his arguments were so theological in nature, it was a very good concession to agree that the words of Jesus are able to be part of the foundation for an ideal society. Also, I respect that your debate technique was more professional, but given that Kenton relied a lot on emotional appeal when talking about abortion, I would have liked to have seen you lean more into that as well, although I was glad to see you use the Leviticus example about how God does not seem to equate a fetus with a human. Regarding his argument about how certain Old Testament laws applied in order to ensure that the Jews were kept separated from the rest of the world in order to fulfill the prophecy of Jesus' birth, I also have no idea why he accepts those as no longer contextually relevant but argues that the 10 commandments and any other laws that could fall under their purview, and the only answer I can come up with is that he is trying to have it both ways: Jesus coming fulfilled certain things in the Old Testament that changes the context of OT laws he doesn't like, but Jesus affirming the OT means that anything he does like should apply still today. I would have liked to see you possibly push a little on dispensationalism while he was making this argument and how this influences how people decide what laws matter, but I totally understand that it was hard enough to follow that I was really impressed you were able to come up with any coherent response! When he asked if he should have to pay for a gay man to get treatment for AIDS, I respect that you shut down 90% of his pretext, but this was the smaller tear jerker moment for me where I was internally screaming for you to bring up "love your enemies" and "heal the sick" at this point, and this goes back to my earlier statement that I would have loved to see you use the words of Jesus even more! Regarding his upsetting statement about how a lot of the deaths caused by abortion bans have been "shaky", I am 100% sure that he is referring to two of the more publicized cases that involve women who had attempted to either self-terminate their pregnancy or receive abortion care in another state, and then died when their state laws prevented appropriate continued care. By the way, THIS is when I was absolutely fully blinking back tears and ready to scream, and so we're just going to move past the morality of his absolute belief that women who obtain or attempt to obtain abortions deserve death for my mental health. I would have liked to have seen you focus on cases like Katie Cox here, where even though she did survive, what she had to endure was a miscarriage of justice while also experiencing an actual miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy, along with the deaths of Josseli Barnica and Naveah Crain, both Christian women from Texas. Josseli's pregnancy was planned as she wanted to give her daughter a younger sibling. Naveah's was not, but as soon as she found out, she was excited. She had her daughter's name picked out and was at their baby shower with her fiance during the first day that she became ill. They are the "perfect" victims that might actually make a Christian nationalist realize this also hurts women they see as "innocent". Also, I would love to see you point out that right now, since the increase in preventable deaths due to abortion bans is still very recent overall in the United States, this means that families who have experienced these losses are still grieving the death of their wife, daughter, sister, mother, etc, and so the majority of them are probably not ready to share their stories with media, if they are going to make the choice to publicize their tragedy. There's plenty of international examples, but the article I read about Josseli specifically mentioned Savita Halappavanar in Ireland, so I can provide her name without having to do additional depressing research. I typed up and outline of my thoughts as soon as I was parked, and so I haven't even finished the video, and I may be too tired to finish it now, so I can't entirely remember what these final notes about the death penalty meant, and I don't actually have the full context and may not be able to finish the video today, but my initial thoughts were that I would have loved to see you use his earlier argument about certain OT laws existing for specific purposes, and how the coming of Jesus changed the entire religion to be about following his example, but you might have made that point after where I am paused for today! If anyone actually read all of this, thank you, and I love you!
1:34:12 So…it WAS a Christian nation just because most of the founders were Christian. The overwhelming majority of our leaders are STILL Christian…….why are we no longer a Christian nation? Tim here is a Christian and is advocating against a Christian government. Why would the founders be unable to do the same? The answer is clearly just that it was a long time ago so he can say whatever he wants
Don't know if this is the right place for such a comment, but I'm relatively new to this channel. Do you ever have atheist guests? I'm an atheist myself, drawn here by shared values that go beyond the theist/atheist debate. This is merely out of my own curiosity, and I'm not looking to spark any kind of debate. Also, the debate in this video is a fascinating listen as an outsider. Thank you for bringing this challenge to Christian nationalism from the viewpoint of Christianity. As an atheist, I certainly can't do that.
Yes, former Christian here. I consider myself a hopeful theist, and I appreciate TNE content. I also love Mindshift. Both channels cut through much of the BS that plagues Christianity.
Clearly this person lives in an echo chamber and has not thought critically about his own world views. It’s heartbreaking that people like this actually adhere to these views so aggressively.
Kenton needs deliverance, poor baby. He threw out a number of non-sequitirs and substantiated very few of his claims.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼Thank you, Tim for this discourse! You presented clear, compelling points!
I'm listening to this for the first time as an African-American senior who was reared in the Christian faith. Discreet so many questions for me from my perspectives on both sides
It's so interesting how they twist and turn every little thing to fit their POV whether it makes sense or not. It's especially horrifying that this young man doesn't seem to understand anything about abortion or what women face with pregnancies and then says the actual stories about what happens is a little shaky. What a stupid little man!!! This is way people with common sense and logic run away as fast as possible from these churches and organizations.
The first Bible quote read more like it was regarding discipleship and missionary, as well as being a good example of a follower in Christ. Not that those don’t have their own issues but I definitely didn’t gather that it was saying to rule with an iron fist and force Christianity. His interpretation is honestly such a stretch. It’s so clear that these kinds of verses are being used to push an agenda and it is NOT the one of christ.
Also if God wanted us to all obey the Bible AT ALL COSTS why would he even give us free will? Like what would even be the point? Sounds like god creates a lot of his and our own problems.
*me (a married gay)* I am a human and I am flourishing! Love what you said in the beginning, Tim! We ARE society! We create and contribute just like everyone else!
I have a question why get married I don’t understand why many people get married but specially gays. Is it just for the law to recognize the relationship?
@ but that ceremony of the title marriage was a religious concept. So why call it marriage unless you’re religious ? Then! Someone who is in an incest relationship can use the same exact “love” claim. So is there any limit to “love” ?
@chrisarmon1002 so what do you call a ceremony of love between two people? And why is marriage exclusive to your religion? What about aethiest marriage? What about Buddhist marriage? What about Jewish marriage etc?
@ marriage the concept was created from religious cultures. So it’s always had a foundation of religion. So atheist can’t get married but again. They’re using a religious foundation and trying to use it as there’s. Now also why not 2 brothers, why not 10 people you just say 2 ?
Personal comment of Laura Botten: As a Canadian, I've always wondered why the view is that the States is being punished for straying from God when they're also "the best country on Earth", but they also can't point to any other countries that are doing better because they are following God. South Sudan specifically did set themselves up as a Christian nation, are they doing better than the States. Christian Nationals seem to think only Americans can be Christians at all.
I know there are so many reasons why we disagree with Kenton’s worldview, but I was so frustrated throughout by his interruptions! I hope he puts in the work to rid himself of all those reprehensible beliefs
I have now watched all of this. You won the debate easily. If it was a boxing match the ref should have intervened early to prevent damage to your opponent
The Christian nationalist governor of my state is right now trying to pass laws that will make it essentially impossible for people to report grape and where they can charge people who’ve had miscarriages with manslaughter. How, exactly, is that moral or beneficial to society?
The impression I am getting of this kid is that he has never really explored what he was taught and what other viewpoints are taught. It really seems like he has been super sheltered and because of that can't express the views he was told to belive because he never deeply explored them. I'm glad you did this Tim, I pray you have planted a mustard seed in him that makes him actually deconstruct and explore these ideas in an honest way.
Yes. Women are so eager to proceed through all the hormonal changes, morning sickness and stretch marks just to get a late term abortion “out of convenience”. These people don’t think things through.
55:42 right around here, Leo Tolstoy would go ahead and point out that the state, since it relies on the threat of force and violence itself cannot be christian. Hence why Tolstoy was an Anarchist. Edit: it wasn't just government that Tolstoy said wasnt compatible with Christianity. But also the church which in his time was very much just a branch of the government. Any hierarchy is opposed to Christ's example.
Advocating for education access is exemplified in Jesus' discussion with Martha about Mary's choosing well to sit at his feet with the disciples (students).
27:36 okay, so here's the basic interpretation. This understanding is based on translators justifying why they don't need to follow all the laws. The logic is that these laws on sowing mixed seeds, and mixed fabrics, etc were examined as being impossible in a rapidly advancing society, so they were instead interpreted by (mainly Roman and Greek converts) that the Jewish people must have been avoiding "mixing different people's" this leads down into colonial "race mixing" years later. Basically, it's not in the text (as far as I know) it's just a cop out to avoid the laws that obviously don't make sense, and they interpret it as "the Israelites must have not wanted" race mixing" so that Israel would remain pure"
1:17:00 No, Jesus was NOT powerful during his life...that is the whole point, the bottom up kingdom v. top down.....Luke & Acts purposely include images of shepherds and refugees to exemplify how little power and recognition he held in the existing social structures during his time. And he wasn't concerned with building political power, or raising money to build a new empire to rise up against the Romans and rule thru governance....he chose a way of life that Christian nationalists would frame as lazy, socialist, and evil today. He wasn't worried about himself, or his property. It was all about spending time with others who were hurting the most at the time. The outcasts, the addicted and afflicted, the disabled and forgotten....how do they miss this message when they read the Bible? I don't come from the white American church world and it is so confusing to me.
1:20:18 Bro never heard of mammon? Or the whole point behind flesh not being the enemy, it being the self-centered internal drives that lead humans to represent good/evil by their own terms and for their own benefits?? Do these white church dudes even read the Bible??
Wooooofff.....church-raised American Christians are wild, they really read a surface level version of the Bible and tie it up in a bow they title "inherent" without ever doing the deep soul work it requires to experience the heart transformation God calls us to. It is tragic, this is exactly what the part about "but God didn't you see the good acts that i did? and...." The response is clear "Truly i tell you, I don't know you" Jesus and the faith his life inspired does not align with their religion. Two very, very different ways of living.
I was kind of shocked by Kenton's answer about slavery - and your comments about christian nationalist being ok with slavery. do you have a chat on that?
I agree with you. What are the " moral " laws of God and Jesus that we should follow? I would love to see the list so that I can accurately follow them.
Interesting debate. Love it! | I feel as if the idea of “Christian Nationalism” was already demonstrated in the Old Testament and Christ’s existence alone is evidence of the failure of its mission.
You did great. What ive learned is that God created Earth & ppl a LOOONG time ago and things were different. Jesus came along to teach people how to be good again, etc etc. What ppl need to understand is that we have to move forward and live with the CURRENT times, not live in the times of the Bible. Ppl take it way too fckin literal. Live life off of the Jesus teachings ❤
Personal comment of Laura Botten: Taking the LORD's name in vain is kinda impossible because they guarded the pronunciation of YHWH so closely that it's been lost to time. The top priest could only whisper it once a year within the Holy of Holies. Also, to do something in vain is to do it with no reason, so if you mean to talk to God when you say "Oh, my God," it's not in vain. Personally I find "Thank God" to be used too frequently in vain.
I think you're getting frustrated because your working with someone that has a systematic theology (doctrine) along with “proof” texts to solidify that theology. Within that mind there is no questioning. It frustrates me too but I think you just can't get through without dismantling that which probably takes a deconstruction experience to free them from that logic.. Speaking from attending an evangelical seminary.
I cannot even finish watching this. Kenton is so . . . . . . surface. He doesn't actually care about the things he's talking about. Honestly - he's afraid of who he actually is - and is using this fake Christianity to hide from himself.
I'm thinking about my bestie who is a married gay man, certified by the state of GA to provide a safe and loving home for his foster children. Picking up the slack when straight families radically fail their children. It's so unfair and so evil for this guy to sit there and say that is abuse. My friends have more parenting education and are held to higher standards than straight parents in normal situations.
Personal comment of Laura Botten: Even if you take Genesis absolutely literally you have understand that there was an understanding even at the beginning with Cain and Abel of right and wrong. We are not told why Abel was accepted and not Cain, but it's clear that they knew what was expected of them.
Christian nationalism takes the name of the Lord in vain because the name means character, and that is what they are referring to when they talk about the name. You can see this in how the Jewish people named their children after a characteristic or a character, and their names changed when the characters changed, such as Saul to Paul, or when the characters changed, such as Saul to Paul.
My understanding of what he means by “moral law“ is these are the laws for how to be a morally good person. A law like “no mixed threads“ is considered a contextual law because that is about your outward appearance. The way it was explained in my evangelical church was that certain laws were meant as an outward appearance. That way, the surrounding cities or villages would know what their beliefs are, based on their appearance. From what I remember in high school that was the reasoning given for why we don’t need circumcision. A “moral law” is considered to still be applicable today. The idea is that core morals are relevant across time. Therefore, the “moral laws“ given in the old Testament are still applicable today. Hope this is a decent explanation lol they are very confusing beliefs and I am still struggling to deconstruct what I was told
I've been taught that as well. However it is up to interpretation what constituses as moral. Why for example the sex of your partner is a moral choice for some but what you eat/wear etc is not.
It’s astounding how Kenton can be so confident that he has THE correct interpretation of scripture even though his position seems based on ignoring most of the Bible.
Do you remember when a middle eastern dictator was asked by a student about the gays in his country and his response was basically "what gays"? Of course they were dealt with severely. They either got out of the country or went underground or worse.
This was sad and painful to watch. I feel so bad for him because he is missing out on so much richness in scripture and in the Christian tradition. His black and white reality is a prison.
I’m a little disappointed you didn’t go in on the pro life, why doesn’t he support legislation that would save children from the #1 killer of children? Or support legislation that gives kids free meals at school so they don’t suffer malnutrition? Or quality free healthcare so a child doesn’t die of untreated type 1 diabetes?
This is a good presentation. I am getting a good education. I belong to and was raised in a mainstream, liberal protestant denomination that affirms gay people including marriage and clergy, works for peace/justice, welcomes the stranger and actively feeds /uptlifts the poor and marginalized. It takes the Bible Seriously. but not Literally. Also, in our church, the teachings of Jesus are what we follow above anything else in the Bible - the Sermon on the Mount - Matt. 25 etc. It seems the fundamentalist/ nationalists love to live in the OT and seem to love punishment over forgiveness. Doesn't this guy remember the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness and how one of the 3 temptations was when the devil offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the world, and of course he rejected this. Jesus was not about secular power, or creating a government, but the transformative power of love (the great commandment to love God and neighbor) that makes the world a better place if we follow him and his teachings. I am just learning about Christian fundamentalism, and Christian Nationalism and to me, it is sad, that these people seem to miss the entire message of Jesus, as do most of the TV preachers. So sad. Thanks for doing a great job. I love your channel.
I’m wondering about the role of women in a Christian nationalist country? Would a Christian nationalist country differ from say a fundamentalist Islamic country? Or would the men in this country decide what women could and could not do?
Why do Christians ignore the problem of belief? We have limited control over what we believe to be true or untrue. If God hasn't put it in somebody's heart to believe in God, how can we punish them for that? And how would it be beneficial for everybody to simply play-act being Christian? Because you can't legislate belief
Comment on the first few minutes. You can be a "conservative Christian" and believe in very strong separation of church and state. My brand of Mennonite is such a case. Not conservative like buggy or dress wearing but conservative as in Biblical teachings but that has certainly changed within my conservative home church and not they also support nationalism. Sad times.
39:25 I’d just like to say that tearing apart families and sending the kids to the church has been done, and I’d like Kenton to ask any indigenous person how well that works out for anyone involved
Even in modern day, that's what cults do! The channel Cults to Consciousness has hours upon hours of examples of this very behavior, including in sects of the IBF.
This was an EXCRUCIATING watch. Thank you, Tim, for having this conversation because Lord knows I would not have had the patience 🫡
christians always tell me that god gave humans freedom of choice and that you will only go to heaven if you come to jesus by your own choice.... So, by them forcing people to follow jesus, isn't that going against god's plan?
@BenWorstGamer : John14 6 : I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.
This guy’s argument is just “yes, our goals would harm a great many people, but they’re sinners and deserve to be harmed. Therefore this is good for society”
This is succinct and accurate.
And he doesn't even realize the harm he's causing.
@@keithwiebe1787 he doesn’t see it as harm, I think. He has assumed a worldview that love can be expressed through violence and deprivation, and he does this in order to justify the reality that his goals go against Jesus’ most central message.
As a person of faith-- wow I just cannot stand these people lol
They want State Theocracy, of what value is faith regarding freedom of choice if it is forced upon others like Islamist societies? They aren't choosing Islam they are forced into it and it has no value faith wise if that is the case because faith has to be a choice someone makes and if they choose otherwise.... their right in a free society and that's where it is and anyone who disagree's is not only a terrible human being but a complete moron.
@@keithwiebe1787I’m not sure he cares.
36:20 I love how Kenton defaulted to "two gay men" in the genderless example Tim gave. Just goes to show where their priorities really are.
Thanks for putting up with him Tim. You're a much better person than I am, my eyes would've rolled out of my head by this point lol
This was so triggering. Tim, thank you for taking one for the team here. I have no words.
You're gracious, cause for me the host infuriated me. I understand he has a clear bias going in but I wish he'd have shown it less. Bless you, Tim. Your work is important and not everyone is open to sitting down for the conversations as you are. And thank you for the position you took on abortion as they tried to bate you, you handled that excellently.
When you put the words Christian and Nationalist together, you get a nationalist who believes God has given him the right to tell everyone else how to live their lives. How do they not see the anti-biblical irony in that.
I really enjoy middle of the workday, too. My evenings are reserved for time with my spouse and our toddler. It's great to listen to you while I'm getting work done!
Thank you Tim I left the evangelical church in 2018. It hurt way too much to watch people I looked up to trade Jesus for power. Ugh! I don’t understand how Christian Nationalist can’t see that the power that they seek will not only harm society but it will destroy the church (what’s left of it). If the law could save us we wouldn’t have a need for Jesus, salvation, forgiveness, or redemption. What happened to the passage where satan offered Jesus all the splendor of all the kingdoms. Jesus rebuked satan. He came because we needed Him. Not because He needed power.
If you happen to live in the United States, the nationalist and civilizationist ideology is recurrent identity politics. Systematized organization of the State according to a "Christian Moral/Cultural Order".
In the 19th century, Christianity was a civic religion in the US. At least, at the State level. Entire generations were raised on the notion Christianity should interfere in politics. It went as far as sermons trying to justify slavery. Eg. “Exposition of the Views of the Baptists” (1823) by Rev. Dr. Richard Furman, South Carolina.
In the early 20th century, there would be a modernist movement, specifically one that was in part inspired by the reconstruction era. Again, Christian Nationalists, like William Jennings Bryan, would resist. Particularly the modernist theology in Evangelical churches (acceptance of Darwin's theory of evolution, and higher criticism). Note how the needle moved. William Bryan was absolutely an abolitionist. But he inherited from the older Christian Nationalists the nationalist identity politics.
*THIS*
As someone who became an atheist out of disgust with what fundamentalism has done to religions, Tim you are a breath of fresh air. We obviously don’t agree on theology, but love to hear your takes on Christianity
You were NEVER saved or a fundamentalist! And, by the way, religion is man-made while Christianity is based upon grace not works Ephesians 2:8-10✝️.
As a bisexual Christian, even though I did marry a man, that comment about breaking up the gay family unit is terrifying. Thinking I could have ended up with either spouse at the moment legally raising kids in a loving home. Jesus also promoted free will, how can they say the state should have the authority to dictate our lives? People are meant to come to God in their revelation in free will, not be forced by a handmaids- tale society.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Homosexuality will keep you out of heaven!
@Lovegainers5 Get out of here with that bullshite. I love God, He loves me, my relationship with my creator is personal between He and I and not your business.
@@emmadear3276 You may love a god, but it is not the God of the bible, nor the Father of Jesus. A Christian follows Christ. Please use a different term to describe your religious beliefs, it is not Christian no matter how much you want it to be.. Have a nice day.
Personally I love the time you have been posting the lives. It works great for me because it’s the middle of my work day and gives me something to listen to and help me focus through the rest of the grind. But obviously I’m just one person, and I’ll be listening regardless if I can do it live or later on. Great content as always, looking forward to the next one!
What I find funny about people like "therightcorner" saying you are not Christian, is that it has the opposite effect. Atheists like me see/hear that, and think, 'Yep Christianity is all about hate, I better stay away.'
People are being driven out of the church by these people. Whereas, I could see fellowship and community with Christians that love their neighbour.
When the guy says that two gay guys living together in marriage would be committing adultery every day, he seems completely unaware of what adultery was: *wife stealing.* Adultery was depriving a man of his *property rights* - the woman he owned or was about to own (cringe at women being considered property). Exactly what wife are two gay guys stealing? Exactly what husband was being deprived of his property? And... adultery in the bible is always a violation of a *marriage,* but he doesn't believe those guys even have a marriage!
I know that's not the largest facepalm of the discussion. It's just what I saw before I pause watching for now.
Not to mention - the guy probably has no clue that the Bible has no law against female homos_uality.
Just caught the end and boy was that triggering to listen to LOL but seriously, it was like trying to reason with an abuser. In the future, instead of allowing them to keep dragging the conversation in so many different directions and deflecting from your questions with more with questions and no answers, maybe you could try saying to them, let's finish discussing this first and then we can discuss that.
yep
Based on his logic and debate approach of asking questions to get a "gotchu" there's not much difference between him and red pill men who are trying to argue someone down into agreeing with them.
26:56 to me it sounds like he’s explaining why it’s ok for him to pick and choose what applies to us today and what doesn’t.
I got drawn into a conversation about how there is a 3 part division to the law, and it is literally nonsense. "Oh well some laws were not given to us so we don't have to follow them" Okay, but who makes that distinction?
There is a difference between teaching people to follow Yeshua and compelling them through the force of Law to follow Yeshua. I am not told by Yeshua to become the police over the world for the sake of a Christian nation.
Faith has no value and is not faith unless it is chosen freely.
@englishsteel-nz6im And it is a matter of grace. Not Law.
Yes - this is the reason why I consider Christian Nationalism to be lazy and impatient evangelism. For that reason, it's never going to produce the right fruit.
i just cannot believe his tone and rhetoric when describing slavery vs gay people…… how telling
When Kenton immediately references the Bible even after you established this wasn’t a debate about whether Christian nationalism is biblical… *sigh* That’s when I knew this man has not been outside his bubble enough. That he, to use a biblical metaphor, has a veil over his eyes (and cotton in his ears), so he can’t/won’t understand and engage in the world outside of his own terms. Like so many, he leans on his and his community’s own understanding.
I’m not sure how much of this I’ll be able to get through. The well-meaning conservatives ignorantly dabbling in Christian nationalism can be embarrassing. The ones who more fully embrace their bigotry are maddening. Many are both.
Edit at 14:08: I think I found out how long I can handle watching this. Very much not long. 😓
God bless you. I would NOT have had the patience to debate him lol. I would have lost my marbles in my own emotions 😂
I'm not quite halfway through, but I think one issue is that there were widely different definitions of what "beneficial to society" means. You mean, "Encourages the flourishing of the most people." He means, "Matches what I believe the Bible says based on the interpretation of those who believe like me." Feels like y'all are speaking different languages.
Also, I notice he keeps doing this thing where he tries to ask you thoughtful questions but really they're not actually that thoughtful.
1:00:22 he might ALMOST have…not a point but at least a coherent argument if he was saying that a Christian Nationalist would be against universal healthcare in a non-Christian nation, but that of course once we adopted a Christian Nationalist framework that everyone would be provided with healthcare
He instead stated VERY CLEARLY that, ideally, a gay man with HIV would be arrested for crimes against god, then denied care while being imprisoned by the state, left to die painfully and needlessly of a treatable illness.
This isn’t even the typical fucked up evangelical definition of “Christian love.” That would be some trauma bonding BS taking advantage of this man while he was in a bad place, offering him medicine in exchange for opening his heart to god. But somehow this is MUCH more horrific even than that.
Tim I love clarity as well ,
And this guy is all over the place !
The irony here is that Kenton doesn't come off as the most straight guy.
Fascinating!
I was thinking the same thing, I'm glad someone said it! 😂
As a trans Episcopalian I could tell immediately.
📍
That's seems to be a trend with his type. Probably has some deep down unresolved issues.
I was trying so hard to pay attention, but hearing someone with that vocal affect saying homophobic stuff was SO distracting.
Methinks the internalized homophobia doth protest too much.
Should have asked him if Trump should be in jail for divorce, immorality, and lying.
and ACTUAL “adultery”
Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” Period.
LOVE THIS! Thank you!!!!
Which Bible? (Catholics have a different one). Which translation? Which theology? “God’s moral law is universal.” Then they support Trump. Christian nationalism, to put it theologically, is from the pit of hell.
It seems like he is just stating scripture without context or meaning. Sharing the gospel is good but we shouldn't try to control people through the gospel/bible.
As difficult as it was to watch, it was helpful to hear Christian Nationalist arguments and figure out where they are coming from. I COMPLETELY disagree with him, but now I know how they are "interpreting" Scripture. Thanks for the video, Tim!
Ugh I admire Tim so much during conversations like this. Amazing.
Hey Tim, I really think this was a great debate and the only critique I have is the pushback on objective morality. There are views of moral realism that doesn’t rely on theism.
Hi Tim, I think you did a really good job overall, but I had this playing while I was driving and was fighting tears (while also having just had salty slush splashed across my windshield, and I currently have no wiper fluid, so I didn't need a double obstruction. In order to be able to keep driving safely, I tuned out the video (wasn't going to take my eyes off the road to pause lol), and I really focused only on trying to see where the heck the road was between the streaks on my windshield and the snow and ice coating the road, and I also focused on trying to think of answers on what you asked us as the audience for, points where we think you could improve in the future.
First, I think you did an amazing job overall, and the amount of critiques I have is more reflective of how much emotion this evoked for me, and possibly the other person's relative lack of skill, especially my more general critiques. This brings me to my first general critique: since Kenton is so much weaker in certain ways, I feel like it might have been better to try to force the conversation to jump less, although I definitely understand why that was difficult!
I loved how often you returned to the words of Jesus, especially "love your enemies", healing the sick, and the condemnation of the wealthy exploiting their workers, and I would have to have seen you do it even more! I know that technically wasn't the "thesis", but since his arguments were so theological in nature, it was a very good concession to agree that the words of Jesus are able to be part of the foundation for an ideal society. Also, I respect that your debate technique was more professional, but given that Kenton relied a lot on emotional appeal when talking about abortion, I would have liked to have seen you lean more into that as well, although I was glad to see you use the Leviticus example about how God does not seem to equate a fetus with a human.
Regarding his argument about how certain Old Testament laws applied in order to ensure that the Jews were kept separated from the rest of the world in order to fulfill the prophecy of Jesus' birth, I also have no idea why he accepts those as no longer contextually relevant but argues that the 10 commandments and any other laws that could fall under their purview, and the only answer I can come up with is that he is trying to have it both ways: Jesus coming fulfilled certain things in the Old Testament that changes the context of OT laws he doesn't like, but Jesus affirming the OT means that anything he does like should apply still today. I would have liked to see you possibly push a little on dispensationalism while he was making this argument and how this influences how people decide what laws matter, but I totally understand that it was hard enough to follow that I was really impressed you were able to come up with any coherent response!
When he asked if he should have to pay for a gay man to get treatment for AIDS, I respect that you shut down 90% of his pretext, but this was the smaller tear jerker moment for me where I was internally screaming for you to bring up "love your enemies" and "heal the sick" at this point, and this goes back to my earlier statement that I would have loved to see you use the words of Jesus even more!
Regarding his upsetting statement about how a lot of the deaths caused by abortion bans have been "shaky", I am 100% sure that he is referring to two of the more publicized cases that involve women who had attempted to either self-terminate their pregnancy or receive abortion care in another state, and then died when their state laws prevented appropriate continued care. By the way, THIS is when I was absolutely fully blinking back tears and ready to scream, and so we're just going to move past the morality of his absolute belief that women who obtain or attempt to obtain abortions deserve death for my mental health.
I would have liked to have seen you focus on cases like Katie Cox here, where even though she did survive, what she had to endure was a miscarriage of justice while also experiencing an actual miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy, along with the deaths of Josseli Barnica and Naveah Crain, both Christian women from Texas. Josseli's pregnancy was planned as she wanted to give her daughter a younger sibling. Naveah's was not, but as soon as she found out, she was excited. She had her daughter's name picked out and was at their baby shower with her fiance during the first day that she became ill. They are the "perfect" victims that might actually make a Christian nationalist realize this also hurts women they see as "innocent".
Also, I would love to see you point out that right now, since the increase in preventable deaths due to abortion bans is still very recent overall in the United States, this means that families who have experienced these losses are still grieving the death of their wife, daughter, sister, mother, etc, and so the majority of them are probably not ready to share their stories with media, if they are going to make the choice to publicize their tragedy. There's plenty of international examples, but the article I read about Josseli specifically mentioned Savita Halappavanar in Ireland, so I can provide her name without having to do additional depressing research.
I typed up and outline of my thoughts as soon as I was parked, and so I haven't even finished the video, and I may be too tired to finish it now, so I can't entirely remember what these final notes about the death penalty meant, and I don't actually have the full context and may not be able to finish the video today, but my initial thoughts were that I would have loved to see you use his earlier argument about certain OT laws existing for specific purposes, and how the coming of Jesus changed the entire religion to be about following his example, but you might have made that point after where I am paused for today!
If anyone actually read all of this, thank you, and I love you!
1:34:12 So…it WAS a Christian nation just because most of the founders were Christian. The overwhelming majority of our leaders are STILL Christian…….why are we no longer a Christian nation?
Tim here is a Christian and is advocating against a Christian government. Why would the founders be unable to do the same?
The answer is clearly just that it was a long time ago so he can say whatever he wants
Don't know if this is the right place for such a comment, but I'm relatively new to this channel. Do you ever have atheist guests? I'm an atheist myself, drawn here by shared values that go beyond the theist/atheist debate. This is merely out of my own curiosity, and I'm not looking to spark any kind of debate.
Also, the debate in this video is a fascinating listen as an outsider. Thank you for bringing this challenge to Christian nationalism from the viewpoint of Christianity. As an atheist, I certainly can't do that.
I'm an atheist as well, but I really enjoy what TNE does. Tim and April are just good, decent humans.
Yes, former Christian here. I consider myself a hopeful theist, and I appreciate TNE content. I also love Mindshift. Both channels cut through much of the BS that plagues Christianity.
Clearly this person lives in an echo chamber and has not thought critically about his own world views. It’s heartbreaking that people like this actually adhere to these views so aggressively.
Kenton needs deliverance, poor baby. He threw out a number of non-sequitirs and substantiated very few of his claims.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼Thank you, Tim for this discourse! You presented clear, compelling points!
I'm listening to this for the first time as an African-American senior who was reared in the Christian faith. Discreet so many questions for me from my perspectives on both sides
AND MERRY CHRISTMAS AND I HOPE YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR GOD BLESS GOD BE WITH YOU I KNOW YOU WILL KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AMEN
It's so interesting how they twist and turn every little thing to fit their POV whether it makes sense or not. It's especially horrifying that this young man doesn't seem to understand anything about abortion or what women face with pregnancies and then says the actual stories about what happens is a little shaky. What a stupid little man!!! This is way people with common sense and logic run away as fast as possible from these churches and organizations.
The first Bible quote read more like it was regarding discipleship and missionary, as well as being a good example of a follower in Christ. Not that those don’t have their own issues but I definitely didn’t gather that it was saying to rule with an iron fist and force Christianity. His interpretation is honestly such a stretch. It’s so clear that these kinds of verses are being used to push an agenda and it is NOT the one of christ.
Also if God wanted us to all obey the Bible AT ALL COSTS why would he even give us free will? Like what would even be the point? Sounds like god creates a lot of his and our own problems.
1:40:22 “I’m not familiar with that…” sounds like a hearing for a Trump cabinet pick.
*me (a married gay)* I am a human and I am flourishing!
Love what you said in the beginning, Tim! We ARE society! We create and contribute just like everyone else!
I have a question why get married I don’t understand why many people get married but specially gays. Is it just for the law to recognize the relationship?
@chrisarmon1002 it's a ceremony of love my friend
@ but that ceremony of the title marriage was a religious concept. So why call it marriage unless you’re religious ? Then! Someone who is in an incest relationship can use the same exact “love” claim. So is there any limit to “love” ?
@chrisarmon1002 so what do you call a ceremony of love between two people? And why is marriage exclusive to your religion? What about aethiest marriage? What about Buddhist marriage? What about Jewish marriage etc?
@ marriage the concept was created from religious cultures. So it’s always had a foundation of religion. So atheist can’t get married but again. They’re using a religious foundation and trying to use it as there’s.
Now also why not 2 brothers, why not 10 people you just say 2 ?
Personal comment of Laura Botten: As a Canadian, I've always wondered why the view is that the States is being punished for straying from God when they're also "the best country on Earth", but they also can't point to any other countries that are doing better because they are following God. South Sudan specifically did set themselves up as a Christian nation, are they doing better than the States. Christian Nationals seem to think only Americans can be Christians at all.
I know there are so many reasons why we disagree with Kenton’s worldview, but I was so frustrated throughout by his interruptions! I hope he puts in the work to rid himself of all those reprehensible beliefs
I have now watched all of this. You won the debate easily. If it was a boxing match the ref should have intervened early to prevent damage to your opponent
The Christian nationalist governor of my state is right now trying to pass laws that will make it essentially impossible for people to report grape and where they can charge people who’ve had miscarriages with manslaughter. How, exactly, is that moral or beneficial to society?
For me, I enjoy lives in the evening when I'm cooking dinner. But I'm also on the west coast so that's like 8-9 pm for you
The impression I am getting of this kid is that he has never really explored what he was taught and what other viewpoints are taught. It really seems like he has been super sheltered and because of that can't express the views he was told to belive because he never deeply explored them. I'm glad you did this Tim, I pray you have planted a mustard seed in him that makes him actually deconstruct and explore these ideas in an honest way.
I really don’t understand how people think that women want to have an abortion, like nobody in their right mind actually wants to experience that
Yes. Women are so eager to proceed through all the hormonal changes, morning sickness and stretch marks just to get a late term abortion “out of convenience”.
These people don’t think things through.
Tim, you have the patience of a saint. The illogic of his wandering thoughts are making him hard to understand because he makes no sense.
55:42 right around here, Leo Tolstoy would go ahead and point out that the state, since it relies on the threat of force and violence itself cannot be christian. Hence why Tolstoy was an Anarchist.
Edit: it wasn't just government that Tolstoy said wasnt compatible with Christianity. But also the church which in his time was very much just a branch of the government. Any hierarchy is opposed to Christ's example.
Advocating for education access is exemplified in Jesus' discussion with Martha about Mary's choosing well to sit at his feet with the disciples (students).
The Kenton guy is WILD😅 had my blood boiling
27:36 okay, so here's the basic interpretation.
This understanding is based on translators justifying why they don't need to follow all the laws. The logic is that these laws on sowing mixed seeds, and mixed fabrics, etc were examined as being impossible in a rapidly advancing society, so they were instead interpreted by (mainly Roman and Greek converts) that the Jewish people must have been avoiding "mixing different people's" this leads down into colonial "race mixing" years later.
Basically, it's not in the text (as far as I know) it's just a cop out to avoid the laws that obviously don't make sense, and they interpret it as "the Israelites must have not wanted" race mixing" so that Israel would remain pure"
You should invite Wes Huff as another scholarly voice to critique the deconstruction video...
Tim your example of RC was epic. They claim they aren't hateful but then spew that crap.
When are you getting Carl Raschke on.
1:17:00 No, Jesus was NOT powerful during his life...that is the whole point, the bottom up kingdom v. top down.....Luke & Acts purposely include images of shepherds and refugees to exemplify how little power and recognition he held in the existing social structures during his time. And he wasn't concerned with building political power, or raising money to build a new empire to rise up against the Romans and rule thru governance....he chose a way of life that Christian nationalists would frame as lazy, socialist, and evil today. He wasn't worried about himself, or his property. It was all about spending time with others who were hurting the most at the time. The outcasts, the addicted and afflicted, the disabled and forgotten....how do they miss this message when they read the Bible? I don't come from the white American church world and it is so confusing to me.
1:20:18 Bro never heard of mammon? Or the whole point behind flesh not being the enemy, it being the self-centered internal drives that lead humans to represent good/evil by their own terms and for their own benefits?? Do these white church dudes even read the Bible??
Wooooofff.....church-raised American Christians are wild, they really read a surface level version of the Bible and tie it up in a bow they title "inherent" without ever doing the deep soul work it requires to experience the heart transformation God calls us to. It is tragic, this is exactly what the part about "but God didn't you see the good acts that i did? and...."
The response is clear "Truly i tell you, I don't know you"
Jesus and the faith his life inspired does not align with their religion. Two very, very different ways of living.
I think tim did well
Are ya winning, son?
I HOPE I GOT THAT RIGHT WELL ANYWAY PEACE ON EARTH TO ALL PEOPLE NOT JUST ONE PERSON NOT JUST ONE GROUP BUT ALL PEOPLE❤
Around 48:26 it was Daniel Penny who killed Jordan Neely
I was kind of shocked by Kenton's answer about slavery - and your comments about christian nationalist being ok with slavery. do you have a chat on that?
I lost so many brain cells listening to this guy. Tim, you have the patience of a saint and the preparation level of a lawyer.
I agree with you. What are the " moral " laws of God and Jesus that we should follow?
I would love to see the list so that I can accurately follow them.
Interesting debate. Love it! | I feel as if the idea of “Christian Nationalism” was already demonstrated in the Old Testament and Christ’s existence alone is evidence of the failure of its mission.
Last point about accountability within the church, don't worry about the world is brilliant!
You did great.
What ive learned is that God created Earth & ppl a LOOONG time ago and things were different. Jesus came along to teach people how to be good again, etc etc. What ppl need to understand is that we have to move forward and live with the CURRENT times, not live in the times of the Bible. Ppl take it way too fckin literal. Live life off of the Jesus teachings ❤
Do we make disciples or force others to be disciples? Where are hearts changed in the CN “gospel”?
Personal comment of Laura Botten: Taking the LORD's name in vain is kinda impossible because they guarded the pronunciation of YHWH so closely that it's been lost to time. The top priest could only whisper it once a year within the Holy of Holies. Also, to do something in vain is to do it with no reason, so if you mean to talk to God when you say "Oh, my God," it's not in vain. Personally I find "Thank God" to be used too frequently in vain.
One of the purposes of the law was definitely to keep God's people separate from the nations. Many scholars have noted that.
I think you're getting frustrated because your working with someone that has a systematic theology (doctrine) along with “proof” texts to solidify that theology. Within that mind there is no questioning. It frustrates me too but I think you just can't get through without dismantling that which probably takes a deconstruction experience to free them from that logic.. Speaking from attending an evangelical seminary.
I cannot even finish watching this. Kenton is so . . . . . . surface. He doesn't actually care about the things he's talking about. Honestly - he's afraid of who he actually is - and is using this fake Christianity to hide from himself.
I'm thinking about my bestie who is a married gay man, certified by the state of GA to provide a safe and loving home for his foster children. Picking up the slack when straight families radically fail their children. It's so unfair and so evil for this guy to sit there and say that is abuse. My friends have more parenting education and are held to higher standards than straight parents in normal situations.
Personal comment of Laura Botten: Even if you take Genesis absolutely literally you have understand that there was an understanding even at the beginning with Cain and Abel of right and wrong. We are not told why Abel was accepted and not Cain, but it's clear that they knew what was expected of them.
Christian nationalism takes the name of the Lord in vain because the name means character, and that is what they are referring to when they talk about the name. You can see this in how the Jewish people named their children after a characteristic or a character, and their names changed when the characters changed, such as Saul to Paul, or when the characters changed, such as Saul to Paul.
That guy is a county commissioner??
My understanding of what he means by “moral law“ is these are the laws for how to be a morally good person. A law like “no mixed threads“ is considered a contextual law because that is about your outward appearance. The way it was explained in my evangelical church was that certain laws were meant as an outward appearance. That way, the surrounding cities or villages would know what their beliefs are, based on their appearance. From what I remember in high school that was the reasoning given for why we don’t need circumcision.
A “moral law” is considered to still be applicable today. The idea is that core morals are relevant across time. Therefore, the “moral laws“ given in the old Testament are still applicable today.
Hope this is a decent explanation lol they are very confusing beliefs and I am still struggling to deconstruct what I was told
I've been taught that as well. However it is up to interpretation what constituses as moral. Why for example the sex of your partner is a moral choice for some but what you eat/wear etc is not.
Tim, one of the main issues with your opponent is that he can't separate the Old Testament and New Testament. He is very confused.
It’s astounding how Kenton can be so confident that he has THE correct interpretation of scripture even though his position seems based on ignoring most of the Bible.
Tim, you asked for feedback. I would like to provide some, but this is not the best place. Please advise.
I'm like, hyperventilating watching this lol.
Do you remember when a middle eastern dictator was asked by a student about the gays in his country and his response was basically "what gays"? Of course they were dealt with severely. They either got out of the country or went underground or worse.
This was sad and painful to watch. I feel so bad for him because he is missing out on so much richness in scripture and in the Christian tradition. His black and white reality is a prison.
I’m a little disappointed you didn’t go in on the pro life, why doesn’t he support legislation that would save children from the #1 killer of children? Or support legislation that gives kids free meals at school so they don’t suffer malnutrition? Or quality free healthcare so a child doesn’t die of untreated type 1 diabetes?
This is a good presentation. I am getting a good education. I belong to and was raised in a mainstream, liberal protestant denomination that affirms gay people including marriage and clergy, works for peace/justice, welcomes the stranger and actively feeds /uptlifts the poor and marginalized. It takes the Bible Seriously. but not Literally. Also, in our church, the teachings of Jesus are what we follow above anything else in the Bible - the Sermon on the Mount - Matt. 25 etc. It seems the fundamentalist/ nationalists love to live in the OT and seem to love punishment over forgiveness. Doesn't this guy remember the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness and how one of the 3 temptations was when the devil offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the world, and of course he rejected this. Jesus was not about secular power, or creating a government, but the transformative power of love (the great commandment to love God and neighbor) that makes the world a better place if we follow him and his teachings. I am just learning about Christian fundamentalism, and Christian Nationalism and to me, it is sad, that these people seem to miss the entire message of Jesus, as do most of the TV preachers. So sad. Thanks for doing a great job. I love your channel.
It's really infuriating how he just kept doubling down on his points
I’m wondering about the role of women in a Christian nationalist country? Would a Christian nationalist country differ from say a fundamentalist Islamic country? Or would the men in this country decide what women could and could not do?
It will be like the Taliban.
GOD IS A TO Z ALPHA AND OMEGA THAT MEANS GOD IS EVERYTHING GOD IS JUST NOT SOME BUT ALL❤
47:20 Where does Christian Nationalism show it doesn't love its enemies? Germany, 1933.
Why do Christians ignore the problem of belief? We have limited control over what we believe to be true or untrue. If God hasn't put it in somebody's heart to believe in God, how can we punish them for that?
And how would it be beneficial for everybody to simply play-act being Christian? Because you can't legislate belief
HELP!!
39:25 If Kenton tried to separate children from some of the gay families I know, It sure wouldn't go well for Kenton.
that nationalist should talk with one of those racists, they have surprising similarities!
BRAVO TIMOTHY JOB WELL DONE😊😮
Comment on the first few minutes. You can be a "conservative Christian" and believe in very strong separation of church and state. My brand of Mennonite is such a case. Not conservative like buggy or dress wearing but conservative as in Biblical teachings but that has certainly changed within my conservative home church and not they also support nationalism. Sad times.
What's the difference between a fundamentalist/nationalist Christian and a fundamentalist Islamicist? Only one has the true religion.