Without even checking the NEC my gut was saying NO simply because they don't want something goofy happening that might inadvertently cut off power to the fire alarm. You proved my gut feeling was right Bill.
A licensed electrician just installed hard wired smoke / fire alarms in my house. There was a perfectly good unused breaker available but he removed it and installed an afci breaker for the fire alarm circuit. There are in fact no other loads on that circuit. The detectors all have battery backup so I do not consider that to be a safety hazard and since an electrician did the work any possible code violation is his problem not mine. Also interesting is the breaker he installed is 20 amps and there is definitely some 14 gauge wire in the detector loop. Due to the short length of 14 gauge wire I have no concern that the breaker would trip before burning the house down. Perhaps there is some exception that allows smoke detection loops to be 14 gauge? Again an electrician did the work and I am not going to tamper with it. I didn't take the dead front off the panel so maybe there's some current limiting there that I don't know about.
I’m assuming this doesn’t apply to single or multi family dwelling units because Part lll of Article 760 covers “Power-Limited” Fire Alarm Circuits. In single/multi family dwelling units the circuit controlling smoke and carbon monoxide detectors is a standard 120volt circuit. I like to wire these using a general lighting circuit so there’s less chance of the homeowner turning off the breaker when the smokies start chirping. Am I correct thinking this is a different topic altogether?
it's how I've always treated it, as well. and yes, I'm pretty sure is is only for dedicated alarm systems, and not for line voltage smoke detectors. but it sounds like a perfect topic for a follow-up video.
There are 2 articles referenced underneath 210.8. I gave one in the video. This is the other one. It would be most appropriate I think: 760.41 NPLFA Circuit Power Source Requirements. (A) Power Source. The power source of non-power-limited fire alarm circuits shall comply with Chapters 1 through 4, and the output voltage shall be not more than 600 volts, nominal. The fire alarm circuit disconnect shall be permitted to be secured in the “on” position. (B) Branch Circuit. The branch circuit supplying the fire alarm equipment(s) shall supply no other loads. The location of the branch-circuit overcurrent protective device shall be permanently identified at the fire alarm control unit. The circuit disconnecting means shall have red identification, shall be accessible only to qualified personnel, and shall be identified as “FIRE ALARM CIRCUIT.” The red identification shall not damage the overcurrent protective devices or obscure the manufacturer's markings. This branch circuit shall not be supplied through ground-fault circuit interrupters or arc-fault circuit-interrupters.
Thanks for the info. I think the one aspect that surprised me was number 4. Kind of a dumb question but since we are talking about a residence, What Lock can be installed that practically "all" electricians can access but typical resident cannot?
I just went a little bit in to the rabbit hole of what the definition of a "qualified person" is. Especially unclear is who manages the appointment of "qualified persons". I presume the owner of the property is, since they might hire a different electrical contractor for every service they need. So does the owner promise "scouts honor" that they will keep a key but only let an electrician actually turn the key? OSHA lists skill requirements, but they fall short of actually being a licensed person.
It's beyond time that we have audible trip alarms in our circuit breakers in america. I find the audible alarm GFCI outlets invaluable - I can't imagine how many service calls would be avoided if breakers alarmed too!
@@JasonW. Reclosers would definitely be a good idea for some cases, but someone would need to put a lot of engineering thinking effort into deciding how, where, and when, reclosing should happen
Breakers are electromechanical, GFCIs are electronic. There are limits on what a breaker can do. Btw in Europe RCDs are also electromechanical, electronic ones are banned.
So the fire alarm system is to be locked to on position with a lock out tag out device or is there another means of securing the breaker to be on constantly
because fires and water from fire suppression could potentially cause GFCI/AFCI to break the circuit and take out the alarm. When it comes to those sorts of situations, the alarm being energized wins out.
We recently installed a circuit of smoke alarms in a house we own where it's legal to self-permit as a homeowner. We passed inspection, but it bugs me that somebody could potentially turn off the smoke circuit from the outside panel and start a fire if they were so evil. Are there any breaker devices that keep a Square D Homeline breaker locked into the 'on' position?
most outside panels have some kind of locking provision. however, you should not have been sold smoke detectors that didn't have a battery backup feature, so you at least have that.
Had an inspector tell me at rough, that the f/a breaker needed to be locked in the on position I asked him what happens if the drywall guys or cabinet guys put a screw through the wire Most modern breakers will still trip with the paddle locked in the on position He didn't have an answer for that and let me slide The fact is your house has to already be a goner before those sprinkler bulbs pop and there is also a built in delay on most flow meters before the alarm kicks in. so bottom line ....a complete waste of time The sprinkler system just makes sure that whatever the fire doesn't damage the water will our precious scumbag, lawyer, lifetime leech politicians taking care of us
Without even checking the NEC my gut was saying NO simply because they don't want something goofy happening that might inadvertently cut off power to the fire alarm. You proved my gut feeling was right Bill.
Sounds good!
Our inspectors don't care and don't read code. They fail fire circuits on standards
Nice to see you addressing Fire Alarm systems 👍
Thanks!
In my house in NC built in 2019, the hardwired fire alarm circuit is tied into one of the bedroom circuits and is thus on AFCI.
Man I missed this channel
Thanks Bill
No problem, thanks Don!
Thank you, Bill!
Hi Tim! No problem.
A licensed electrician just installed hard wired smoke / fire alarms in my house. There was a perfectly good unused breaker available but he removed it and installed an afci breaker for the fire alarm circuit. There are in fact no other loads on that circuit. The detectors all have battery backup so I do not consider that to be a safety hazard and since an electrician did the work any possible code violation is his problem not mine.
Also interesting is the breaker he installed is 20 amps and there is definitely some 14 gauge wire in the detector loop. Due to the short length of 14 gauge wire I have no concern that the breaker would trip before burning the house down. Perhaps there is some exception that allows smoke detection loops to be 14 gauge? Again an electrician did the work and I am not going to tamper with it. I didn't take the dead front off the panel so maybe there's some current limiting there that I don't know about.
I’m assuming this doesn’t apply to single or multi family dwelling units because Part lll of Article 760 covers “Power-Limited” Fire Alarm Circuits. In single/multi family dwelling units the circuit controlling smoke and carbon monoxide detectors is a standard 120volt circuit. I like to wire these using a general lighting circuit so there’s less chance of the homeowner turning off the breaker when the smokies start chirping. Am I correct thinking this is a different topic altogether?
it's how I've always treated it, as well. and yes, I'm pretty sure is is only for dedicated alarm systems, and not for line voltage smoke detectors. but it sounds like a perfect topic for a follow-up video.
There are 2 articles referenced underneath 210.8. I gave one in the video. This is the other one. It would be most appropriate I think:
760.41 NPLFA Circuit Power Source Requirements.
(A) Power Source.
The power source of non-power-limited fire alarm circuits shall comply with Chapters 1 through 4, and the output voltage shall be not more than 600 volts, nominal. The fire alarm circuit disconnect shall be permitted to be secured in the “on” position.
(B) Branch Circuit.
The branch circuit supplying the fire alarm equipment(s) shall supply no other loads. The location of the branch-circuit overcurrent protective device shall be permanently identified at the fire alarm control unit. The circuit disconnecting means shall have red identification, shall be accessible only to qualified personnel, and shall be identified as “FIRE ALARM CIRCUIT.” The red identification shall not damage the overcurrent protective devices or obscure the manufacturer's markings. This branch circuit shall not be supplied through ground-fault circuit interrupters or arc-fault circuit-interrupters.
Thanks for the info. I think the one aspect that surprised me was number 4. Kind of a dumb question but since we are talking about a residence, What Lock can be installed that practically "all" electricians can access but typical resident cannot?
I just went a little bit in to the rabbit hole of what the definition of a "qualified person" is. Especially unclear is who manages the appointment of "qualified persons". I presume the owner of the property is, since they might hire a different electrical contractor for every service they need. So does the owner promise "scouts honor" that they will keep a key but only let an electrician actually turn the key? OSHA lists skill requirements, but they fall short of actually being a licensed person.
I was wondering the same thing.
It's beyond time that we have audible trip alarms in our circuit breakers in america. I find the audible alarm GFCI outlets invaluable - I can't imagine how many service calls would be avoided if breakers alarmed too!
Or reclosers
Interesting idea, thanks!
Nice idea!
@@JasonW. Reclosers would definitely be a good idea for some cases, but someone would need to put a lot of engineering thinking effort into deciding how, where, and when, reclosing should happen
Breakers are electromechanical, GFCIs are electronic. There are limits on what a breaker can do. Btw in Europe RCDs are also electromechanical, electronic ones are banned.
If AFCIs aren't reliable enough for a fire alarm with negligible static load, they're not reliable enough for a refrigerator, in my humble opinion.
I agree with you.
Wow, good point.
Reliable has little to do with it. We don't want to trip for a fire and take out the alarm.
Maybe they count that you will not die if your fridge loses power. Now I think this is somewhat overkill as fire alarms are battery backed anyway.
So the fire alarm system is to be locked to on position with a lock out tag out device or is there another means of securing the breaker to be on constantly
"shall be permitted to be secured in the "on" position".
I'd say that means it can be secured on, but doesn't have to be secured on.
I've had GFCI circuits get tripped by lighting strikes and other random nonsense. Doesnt surprise me a fire alarm shouldn't be on such a circuit.
Yep!
Have you seen these new leviton switches
Yeah they suck 😂 and so do the outlets
good
Thanks!
So if i interpreted it right, it says that not only does it not need GFI/AFCI protection, but it can NOT have GFI/AFCI protection...! 😮
Yes, that is correct.
👍 👍
Thanks Theo!
Doesnt it need to be on surge protection though
Yes, as far as I know.
But why not?
because fires and water from fire suppression could potentially cause GFCI/AFCI to break the circuit and take out the alarm. When it comes to those sorts of situations, the alarm being energized wins out.
@@colinstu OK.
I guessed correctly
Good job!
We recently installed a circuit of smoke alarms in a house we own where it's legal to self-permit as a homeowner. We passed inspection, but it bugs me that somebody could potentially turn off the smoke circuit from the outside panel and start a fire if they were so evil. Are there any breaker devices that keep a Square D Homeline breaker locked into the 'on' position?
TRADESAFE Circuit Breaker Lockout Device, 3 Pack, 480/600 Volt, Clamp-on Breaker Lock Out Device, OSHA Compliant, Premium Grade, Large: amzn.to/45CUAkZ (They come in 3 sizes)
most outside panels have some kind of locking provision. however, you should not have been sold smoke detectors that didn't have a battery backup feature, so you at least have that.
Like the previous commenter stated, the backup battery will prevent that from happening...👍
Change those batteries yearly.
@@carbonstar9091 that's changed with modern detectors. in fact, my standard detector, has a permanent battery.
No
Correct!
+!!!
Thanks!
Had an inspector tell me at rough, that the f/a breaker needed to be locked in the on position
I asked him what happens if the drywall guys or cabinet guys put a screw through the wire
Most modern breakers will still trip with the paddle locked in the on position
He didn't have an answer for that and let me slide
The fact is your house has to already be a goner before those sprinkler bulbs pop and there is also a built in delay on most flow meters before the alarm kicks in.
so bottom line ....a complete waste of time
The sprinkler system just makes sure that whatever the fire doesn't damage the water will
our precious scumbag, lawyer, lifetime leech politicians taking care of us
I wouldn't lock out the fire alarm circuit until after the drywallers were done.