Amazing Ancient Roman/Jewish SWORDS found in Israel! Are they Roman?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Four amazing swords of the Roman era have been found in a cave in Israel. Are they Roman, Jewish Revolt, or something else? • A rare cache of weapon...
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They belonged to The People's Front of Judea
No they don't, they belong to The Judean People's Front !!!......
@@billy.g3597 Splitters!
Were the bodies of the Elite Suicide Squad found as well?!?
They better make sure the latin grammar on their graffiti is correct!
you splittist
There are only two possibilities: These swords either belonged to the Judean People's Front...or to the People's Front of Judea.
Alright, but APART from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health... what have the Romans ever done for us?
Those splitters!
But what about the Judean Popular People's Front and the Judean People's Popular Front?
@@ThatGuy182545 Much of it did not last past the down fall of the empire. And people as economies improved eventually in the middle ages and after rediscovered those things. The Romans implemented civil engineering and I see no evidence that they invented such.
The jewish state was destroyed by the Romans. Also before rome fall they adopted and perfected their brand of christianity that got rid of most of the non-roman branded churches. Then christianity marched hand in hand with conquerors of pagan people like the Prussians with the last bit of it by the conquistadors in the americas and many parts of asia like in the Philippines.
@@loquat44-40 Dude, this WHOLE conversation is literally just a Monty Python bit.
This is essentially the 2nd century version of a Viet Cong arms cache, so it makes a lot of sense that you would find a heterogeneous mix of weapons, some of them stolen, some of them locally produced, and some of them hobbled together from pieces of both. You see the same thing with insurgent weaponry today, for example Taliban fighters using a combination of stolen US guns and Khyber pass replicas, or even Myanmar rebels using 3d printed copies of more standard guns that use some parts from purchased firearms. That one of them is surprisingly old also checks out; Lee Enfield rifles are still popular in the Khyber region!
Exactly, they're entirely consistent with the time and setting. It's going to be refit blades and copies in that situation.
Pretty sure that Khyber region is also where they get lightsaber crystals from
My mind immediately went to the Mujahedeen fighting Russia in the 80s using everything from AK-47s to literal muskets handed down over centuries. Personally, I think they started off as Roman spoils and as parts broke or were lost they were replaced with simple parts that could be whittled in a cave.
Still popular in New Zealand mate. A couple of months ago I watched five blokes at a range. Two Lee-Metfords, two Enfields and a bad-guys' rifle too. Earlier in the day there had been guys with genuine, still shooting, Black Bess ex-British Army rifles and I spoke to one of the guys and he had a whole history of his rifle, which was made in England, and first issued to a British Regiment on its way to India, where the rifle was in service for a lifetime. It was still in very good order. And a guy with a Swiss rifle.
It seems there are written sources that before the Bar-Kokhba revolt, Jewish smits making weapons for the Roman troops deliberately made them of poor quality, so that Roman officials would reject them, and then they would secretly transfer them to the rebels.
What a stupid plan
'Lets get the BAD ones!
Not just secretly make a couple for the jews'
Wow, great comment!!
Sounds about right.
Was about to say the same thing! Thank you.
Quality control seems to have decreased Markedly over a relatively short period of time. Many finished weapons seem to have been 'rejected'.
We can assume from the writings that the Romans believed, these 'rejected' weapons would likely be broken down to components and reforged... when instead, these rejects fell off the radar so to speak, and they were passed off to the rebels.
Rebels who had no other way of gaining even half way serviceable battlefield weapons.
It would be good to see the source for this.
I'm astonished: the sharp edge of one of the swords looks like it's been around for a few months. That place must have a perfect 0% humidity.
It's a fascinating analysis, Mat. It did cross my mind that they seemed simpler than what I expected when I clicked through on the article. The crudeness of that rivet makes you wonder if perhaps some of them were put together very much underground by non-specialist weapons makers. Perhaps by a blacksmith or something. When you need weapons, you need weapons.
I was thinking a modern equivalent of this stash might be one of those busts here in South Africa where people can't afford the fanciest things out of gun shops and you find a mixture of Russian, Chinese, American pistols etc.. People can always get hold of weapons when they need them but they might have to get creative when you can't just buy them without scrutiny.
At the time of the Bar-Kokhva rebellion, Judea was populous and also heavily industrialized. This holds true for the Eastern Judean Desert as well, which oases along the Dead Sea shores were famous for their pharmaceuticals and their cosmetics. The Romans wrecked everything there very thoroughly as retaliation, and that included the even more famous Date Palm and Burseraceae incense trees plantations. Metalworking and blacksmithing was one of the mainstays of the Judean economy at the time, mostly using imported ores from as far as the Caucasus. There is absolutely no doubt that convincing copies of Roman weaponry could have been made locally even in the then-prevailing guerrilla conditions, just like these Sten SMG copies that were produced locally by the Jewish military underground during the years of the British mandate in Palestine.
The swords do have a certain “Khyber Pass rifles” look about them. No disrespect to the possibly local smiths mind you, it’s just that they likely weren’t concerned with meeting Roman Army standards when making swords Intended to arm Jewish rebels.
@@aaronmoore3050Regardless of the origin it is a weapons cache and we do not have details of whatever else was there. I am not aware of any of the early christians fighting the Romans, but I have never read for sure that they did not. When putting down the revolts the Romans likely would have treated any jew regardless of their religion the same for sure.
An analysis of the metallurgy might tell us more.
@@aaronmoore3050 I mentioned nothing about being cool or much else other than a weapons cache since it obvious they secreted away. You are the one that was trying to link them with christians. The buy a sword in the bible had do with dangers while making a trip. Seems you are the one trying to fit it in to story.
Even to this day when weapons are illegal they are often buried until the time is right.
Many sects even when they are about 'peace' often still have armed groups within them. Initially the christians started out as sect or cult within israel it caught on elsewhere. In the 4th century the emperor Constantine legitimized it and it eventually became the state religion after some fine tuning. Like put the women in their place etc.
@@loquat44-40 They were found next to a pilum.
@@aaronmoore3050obviously nothing can be totally ruled out. However, what originally drew archeologists to that cave was a Jewish inscription related to the revolt. They were there to photograph the inscription in the hopes of finding things not seen by the human eye when they noticed the swords.
Great summary Matt; this is a spectacular find! Really look forward to reading the write up once they are described and hope there is a bit of restoration at least to clean them off a bit to see some more details. That textile covering was most impressive to me, and at first I thought I was looking at some type of grip wrap!
The level of preservation is incredible, thanks for the video Matt 👍
This is the oldest documented boating accident.
Wow! This is a surprising crossover between my local news (*waves from tel aviv*) and Scholar Gladiatoria! Saw the news few days ago and was not expecting this video! Didn't know he was an actual archeologist! Archeology is big in my country... ❤️
One possibility that comes to mind, is that these might be old, perhaps even "discarded" Roman military swords sold on "the black market" by a legionare or other Roman official that happened to be a little dirty.
Selling weapons from the "scrap room" destined for re-melting is obviously a lot less risky than selling "active duty" equipment. This kind of thing still happens to this day in various militaries after all.
In fact, I would imagine a blade from Jewish people of the time may be in fact MORE of an archeological find, as I would imagine them to be even rarer than Roman swords, for which we have examples all over the empire.
There are very few surviving Jewish blades as I recall. So anything made in Judea would be a tremendous find.
Yeah that’s my thought.
From a purely non-academy bystander perspective, I’m like… roman weapons are cool, but rebel weapons that were collected piece by piece and locally fitted are WAY cooler. I feel like these have a lot more character than a standard issue legionnaire sidearm would. I can’t help but wonder what stories these blades could tell.
@@swordsman1062well these ones don't have much history to tell given that they were kept in a cave for almost 2000 years
@@jlGenozzV okay, but BEFORE they got put in a cave?
This reminds me of the Vered Jericho sword which Shad did a video on some years ago. That was the video that got me into swords and this whole community on RUclips. I feel like I've come full circle. Can't wait to see more about your collab with the others while Shad is in England, it is going to be awesome.
Be very careful invoking that name here. Shad is apparently a "bigot" who holds "extremist, far-right" views in Matt's estimation. That's why Matty here decided to totally cut-off at the drop of a hat, a man that considered him a good friend.
If it becomes known that you enjoyed such "Nazi, Far-Right, Fascist" comment, who knows what Matt will do.
What a great find! Thanks for posting this Matt
Trying to imagine just what it would feel like once you realize what you have just found. Amazing find.
Oh wow, I love the quick video on this topic.
Thanks Matt!
Absolutely fantastic! And a very educative and thorough presentation! Great!
Thank you for the in-depth view on the news, and for your sharp, informed observations. Really fascinating.
As soon as I heard about this, I was hoping you would do a video about it! Thanks, Matt!
Great video! And so fast! Thank you.
Great video, I've been following this story today. I heard that there was the metal head of a Roman pilum was found in context with the bundle of swords.
Yes there is a spear head, but it's not a pilum as reported.
@@scholagladiatoriaGood to get some context. So it's four roman era swords and a spearhead. Rather than them definitely being Roman swords.
@@scholagladiatoria Ah that's interesting. They'd only mentioned it in passing in what I'd been reading & hadn't shown any pictures. Thanks for the info.
That was fascinating. Love the channel. Thanks, Matt.
Thanks for your in-depth analysis of these swords. It’s the best description I’ve seen so far
Fascinating stuff, and great insight from yourself. You definitely make a strong case for your theory.
Amazing find. My mind immediately created a few stories on how such different swords ended up together. And who owned or used each.
An amazing, career defining archeological find - I'm officially jealous of the team that found them.
Great video, Matt. Lots of good information
Fascinating indeed. I love it. Looking forward to the next video, Matt. 🍻
interessting findings, thank you for the historical explanations👍
As soon as I heard about this yesterday I knew you would be making a video about it. Very amazing discovery!
I can understand why everyone wants it to be rebels but what about a gang of thieves? "It's a good start, boys, we only need another 20,000 or so. And shields. And helmets.".
I've no idea how common it was for civilians to go around armed in the Roman Empire or whether it would attract attention if you go into town armed say (which as you've pointed out in a previous video, was illegal in medieval Europe unless you were a dubbed knight).
Because its widely believed that rebels hid in those caves
@@DanielS-zq2rr Lots of people believe the Great Wall of China can be seen from space. It can't. If you have evidence, that would be different.
Amazing find!! I’m having so much fun following this story!!
My parents were archaelogists. Whilst excavating a 5th century warrior grave in the southwestern part of mid-Sweden they found a roman gladius of the Mainz type with whalebone pommel and hilt. It had been laid down in the the chamber grave unsheathed, propped up against a stone. When the grave chamber collapsed, other stones had fallen over the sword, bending it. Ok, they thought, anoter bent blade.
But when the stone rubble was lifted away, the blade sprang back to true! That's not bad after 1500 years under the earth....
Omg that's amazing! What year was this excavation?
Super interesting! It's always cool to be around during a significant discovery, I wonder what else we'll learn from these.
thats a pretty amazing first look Matt. thanks!
Amazing. Thanks for making this video I hadn't heard about them.
I need some help on a rumor that I heard:
Sympathetic sword makers in Judea would make/repair swords for the local Roman garrisons and some of the swords delivered would have intentional defects so that they would be rejected by the garrison. The manufactures would then deliver the rejected swords to the rebel groups.
Is this accurate?
Edit: grammar
that was the first news that pop-up today on my phone :D thanks for the great video like always.
I read this in the news earlier. I was hoping someone would look closer at these.thank you ! Awesome !
Excellent video,, thanks. 😊
As an anthropology major I love this analysis. I think your ideas are very good and demonstrate how to think about finds like this.
Thanks for throwing some decent insight into this.
So Matt, do you still have academic connections that would allow you to pass your observations on to archeologists? I think they would find them useful.
If they find it useful, you might get to talk to them and get behind the scenes stories. You could make an interesting video with that.
^^^^^^^THIS!!! I was thinking very much the same thing. They are surely all good archeologists, but I doubt any of them have your extensive knowledge of weaponry, and especially this particular weaponry.
Thanks, Matt. Always interesting.
Not sure about the circumstances of the find, having only just been exposed to this. But the first thing that comes to mind is that this may have been some form of stash, perhaps used by some of the revolutionaries or such, and these swords were gathered overtime as a part of them getting weapons to fight the romans. So maybe one sword was bought at a market, another stolen from an armory, another from a fallen legionary ect, basically meaning they all came from different places as this group or individual collected them for whatever purpose they needed them for. Then perhaps if this was some rebel or such, they might of been caught or killed and therefore this stash lost to time.
I thought along the same lines, but maybe they were just civilian-owned weapons in use by the rebels and the owners hid them rather than hand them in during a military crackdown.
@@chrisball3778 Could be anything along those lines for sure! Would love to learn more about the context of this find, if it is just a cave with swords in, or if other items or clues may exist. Fascinating stuff!
Yeah, or the "family armory", one a heirloom from great-grandpa who joined a roman legion, one bought by dad from a local smith, one taken from a corpse...
I totally agree with your opinion. Let's hope more information comes when they are studied.
Thank you for sharing this information with us
Thank you for sharing your expertise in this logical insightful analysis.
Everyone noticed the sneak preview at the next winless royal armories line of swords, correct I see what looks like the Mary Rose and I’m not sure what that long Quillian thing is he’s holding, but I’m gonna buy it!!!
Omg my comment got a heart ❤️!!!! I love you
Matt!!!!😂
If you are a guerrilla fighter you do not want weapons with a lot of shiny bling, you want weapons that are easy to hide. The dowdy hilts and scabbards may have been deliberate replacements of shiny elements on captured Roman weapons.
Really cool video. Super happy you talked about them, and it's awesome that they were in Israel and the quality of them is different. Extremely interesting. I've always wondered what types of swords the Israelites used
So a few points:
1. We have hundreds of Roman swords, sometimes dozens from the same place, thanks largely to the bog finds of the 2nd-4th centuries A.D. Large numbers of the swords from sites like Vimose, Thorsberg, Straubing, and the early phases of Nydam are Roman in origin.
2. We actually have a few Roman swords from Israel, most notably that from Jerusalem. The 2006 find from El-Fayyum is also noteworthy in this regard. One was also recently found off the coast of Haifa but I can't remember the diver's name, same guy who found the "crusader" sword that we recently got more info on. I'd expect more to come out about that one in the next two years.
3. The most interesting thing about these is the partially preserved original condition of the one blade, where part of its triangular tip is still sharp. That's an incredible state of preservation.
4. All four are Pompeii-type Gladii by blade dimensions. None of them are *really* long enough to constitute Spatha blades of "Spatha From Gladius" (yes that is the typological term translated from German) type. They're in a weird range from longer Gladii to in-between Gladius and Spatha lengths from this time period. And none of them belong to the "Mainz"-type.
5. The Ring pommel gladius pretty securely dates the hoard to being deposited between the 2nd quarter of the 2nd century A.D. to the 2nd quarter of the 3rd century A.D. So we have a Terminus Post Quem of 130/140 to about 220/230 A.D.
6. The Romans didn't have standardized arms manufacturing in this time period. They relied on a system of government approved private manufacturers and ex-military local arms dealers. On top of that, nothing about the hilts suggests the swords aren't made for the Roman military. Waisted hilts are attested in Miks' catalogue and square washers are common. While Legionary workshops were making similar equipment, not every sword purchased or provided to the soldier would have been from the Legionary workshop.
One should also not rule out that these swords are arsenal or locally made copies.
Much like in modern times, the Chinese arms producing company Norinco, is known to have made or still be making copies of American AR15/M16 rifles?
@@ravenrise320 as I said, the reality is that there's not much evidence for that. Not only do they show known introductions of Roman military styles from the 130s A.D., but as I said: local arms manufacturing existed and was selling to the Roman Army.
Arms manufacturing back then didn't work like it did today. When we find copies, they're consistently either of far lower quality and shoddy craftsmanship, or have very distinct traits that allow us to pin them as knock-offs. These were almost certainly captured in comparison to known Gladii from the region, like the one I mentioned from El-Fayyum which is a 1st century B.C. Hispaniensis-type blade with a unique hilt that demonstrates local influence in an era before the professionalization of the Roman military and the nationalization of all arms manufacturing.
superb review
Fascinating! You always bring fresh, entertaining, and educational content. Thanks Professor...
I think thats a sneak peak at the new royal armories collection! 0:43. 🤔 he already mentioned the parrying dagger lying next to those other 2!
Very interesting. You see stone monuments and remains of buildings being discovered all the time. But it is a little more special when there is a discovery of things ancient people actually handled and used in their day to day lives.
I would assume such shoddy weapons are common for rebel groups of the time considering they are not well funded like the Roman military so they had to make do with fairly unskilled local craftsmen. I do wonder about the disparity between the quality of the blades and the hilts. Maybe the blades are Roman, but they were old so the hilts had been replaced.
Super cool stuff!
Thanks for the great video, the comments seem to say anything I would want to say but much better. Again great job
Also one can search for the ACIENT ROMAN CLAY HARDENING TEMPERING! Not so long ago it was discovered the ancient romans heat treated their swords with CLAY, most probably a common bladesmith's practice currently known to be an exclusive Japanese tradition!
Almost every part that the pop culture view of nihonto views as unique, is not unique. Differential hardening, bloom steel, lamination etc. were known and used in pretty much the entire old world.
The truly unique part of nihonto are that the old techniques are preserved. When people do longsword v katana they're pretty much comparing their space age steel perfectly tempered albion to 1000 year old technology.
cracking film Matt
This is some absolutely fantastic content that I might have otherwise missed. Very cool stuff, Matt.
Is it possible the 3 swords in question 3:30 could be early examples of the transition into longer blades, 3 proto-spatha?
Great video as always, and you bring up some good points about potential copies and/or refurbished handles on these artifacts. Some commenters have also brought up some interesting information too. One thing that I immediately thought about however, when discussing the overlapping types and the idea of the blades being in use for a century was how prevalent WW2 small arms still are among various rebel groups and irregular forces around the world today. Its not too unusual to see some African, Asian, or South American political groups with Sten guns, MP40s, M1 Garands or Carbines, and even Mausers and Enfields right up to the current year. Often you see signs of repair or replacement of furniture or improvised furniture on these arms. Considering that WW2 Ended nearly 80 years ago its pretty remarkable that these arms are still usable, so its not really too far a reach to imagine a decent quality blade being used by irregulars in antiquity for 100 or more years.
Great analysis and great assumptions, Matt! The first time I saw this amazing article, I said to myself we have to get Matt Easton opinion and analysis of it. I'm so glad to see your video! I must remark that your assumptions about the manufacturing , the quality, and the origin of the swords make a lot of sense in the historical context. It is known from historical sources, that local weapon manufacturers that worked for the Roman army in Judea, intentionally caused some defects in parts of the weapons, so that they wouldn't meet the quality requirements and be rejected by the Romans, but still be functional enough to be used by the rebels. Anyway, amazing analysis, and thank you!
Yours, Efraim
It is known that, just like most other places, that there were Roman legions in Judaea, but also that they were supported by locally sourced Auxilia. Could it be, perhaps, that the 3 "local" swords belonged to Judaean Auxilia, and the 1 "Roman" ring-pomelled sword might have belonged to their Roman centurion or other officer?
I was thinking much the same thing. It's also quite likely that there were various other local forces and units all over the region that might have been considered "roman" to some degree.
Personally I suspect that the Auxilia, especially in the period under discussion, would generally have had equipment of more or less the same level of quality in terms of manufacture as the legions.
I think it's more likely that these weapons might have belonged to some type of third or fourth tier force, something like local "urban cohorts", night watch units or the like. Especially for smaller, provincial towns such units would probably have to make do with lower quality equipment, and fashions in weapons design might well take decades longer to percolate into those armouries
Such units would also be relatively small, and in the course of an uprising a rebel force might gather a pretty large array of different weapon patterns by raiding such smaller settlements.
Very timely find in the current situation, good to have anindependant expert opinion.
Fascinating!!! I hope photos and measurements will be public !!!
Absolutely fascinating!
marvellous news , allways enjoyed new finds
But what exactly is a "sword"?
Need they all be so very pointy and sharp?
Couldn't we all agree that a placard with the word "sword" on it is just as effective as an actual sword?
"What did the Romans ever give to us?!"
"Uh, the gladii Reg.?"
Many black market items are acquired either at two stages: During the manufacturing process before the item has been fully entered into the inventory registry, or at the end of it's useful service life and is off to the scrap heap. Might explain the none standard hilts because the blade may have skimmed off the stock of bare blades being manufactured before they received their standard hilts. Or, they were old service weapons that had lost their hilts through use and training and were off to the scrap heap. At which case they were appropriated before being hammered into plows. And then like say, a furniture maker could have fashioned a representation of a new hilt and crudely pressed them onto the tang.
I am not surprised that those swords were in such good condition after all this time. They were found not too far from where the dead sea scrolls were found.
As far as just the blades potentially being roman. It is definitely possible, but it is just as likely for them to also be locally made. Throughout history, it was extremely common for sword blades to be made by one company and the hilts to be made by another.
I have watched your channel for years and I did not know or forgot you was an archeological.
Matt, this has to be like Christmas Morning to You, at least to Metatron 🤣 This is indeed an amazing find,can you imagine how many more Antiques are hidden in "climate controlled " caves? I Only dream of having your type of job. I have studied swords, been to a few museum's, I have held an Ancient Greek bronze sword, read books as many as I could read, 37+ year's, however I am still constantly learning So much more from You Sir. Thank You for All You do for the Antique sword community!!!
Amazing find
Probably stash of weapons created by resistance in preparation for rebellion. In Poland it was common to create such stashes before upraising against occupying force.
This is awesome!
Román-jew-greek people were around together , cities were mixed with different nationalities...
These were exactly my thoughts as well when i saw them: The Blades are Roman-Made, but the rest is def refitted. It was a quite common practise with privately owned swords through history. So i think you are spot on.
Amazing find.
The level of preservation is wonderful. I look forward to learning more as they are studied. I’m hoping they were made for resistance fighters…fingers crossed for the underdogs.
I'll give this a WAW and a HOLEY-MOLEY! I totally get that this is an amazing and absolutely wonderful find. Thank you so very much for talking about this. I never would have heard about this find if I wasn't subscribed and notified to your channel. Thank you again for this. Very, very cool and wonderful. Cheers!
I've got a few replica swords. They are much heavier than the originals. I want one that's the same weight as an original. But it seems to be hard to come by.
There is probably more than that group to be found. Seems that if it was a stash for contraband there would be more than just a few swords hidden.
Very very cool historically.
Yesssssss.
My first thought on seeing an article about these swords was, What is scholagladiatoria's take on it! You did not disappoint.
I would love to know how heavy these rare and real swords are compared to a modern or 're enactment' sword. What a find as now specialists can measure, weigh, and even see through science the processes that they used to produce these amazing finds at the time when they were actually forged and processed. What an amazing find.😮
I agree with your analysis. Poor scabbards as compared to surviving Roman examples and the grip is wrong. One consideration is that Jewish rebels would have refused to use scabbards with Roman deities on
That’s an interesting point! Is there archeological evidence of deities being used to embellish scabbards?
Yes winged victories etc found on scabbards
fashion is allways been contagious
Always remember, that in any Military... Your equipment is made by the lowest bidder for the contract.
I think it might be an idea to wait until the paper (you know there's going to be one) is published by the archaeologists, who are more knowledgeable & experienced than any of us, including Matt, in the historical contexts (there you go, Matt 😉) of the region than any of us, along with closer analyses of the metallurgy, materials & construction of the weapons.
I await their finding with anticipation!
Gladiuses.
That's really pretty awesome. I hope they help figure all SORTS of good things out.
Truly fascinating finds. I agree that we should not rush to ascribe them too closely to a particular event, etc. I conversely, also don't see any reason to reject this interpretation. with suggested critiques, given here, being equally speculative.
Note that when used as a direct object, the plural of "Gladius" is "Gladios." "Gladii" is only the nominative plural (or genitive singular) form.
Is there any evidence surrounding or contained in the site itself that suggest when they were deposited?
Good video
It is interesting to know the composition of the metal
This reminds me a little bit of how the modern state of israel got their guns. With guns it's a little harder to used a bunch of different types because you often need common calibers to operate, but there was a hodge podge of captured, repurposed, and crudely built guns in their war for independence. This included rebuilding warm out guns or scavenging them for parts.
This was a really good video, I definitely learned a lot.