Yeah once I found our their total history they lost a bit of mystery, when I read Lord of the Rings as a kid, the way Gandalf described them blew my mind. He was terrified and vague.
Awesome video. I think if Gothmog had survived and worked with Sauron in the War of the Ring I think it would have been a lot harder of a fight, especially at the battle of the black gate and more people would die. However ultimately Sam and Frodo would still be able to destroy the ring since it hadn’t even crossed Saurons mind that anyone would choose to destroy it in spite of its corrupting influence.
@Amanda 🌷🍀.! Gothmog was absurdly powerful, way more powerful than Gandalf the white. so he'd probably be able to banish them with some kind of spell or command.
@Amanda 🌷🍀.! I don't think the witch king would be able to over power Gandalf the White. IT's hard to say. He breaks his staff, but he's also made from a being of his rank. Gandalf is above him in class, being a Maiar. Where the witch king is as about as supremely corrupted a human can be, it's still not the same ? Gandalf kills the Balrog in Moria as Gandalf the Grey, and a Balrog is more powerful than a corrupted human. But I'm not an expert.
@@JensenDKMG85 no your right. Orlin (gandalf) could bitch slap the witch king. Btw his staff only broke in the movies. In the books he and the witch king had a steardown at the gates and Gandalf basically said "I'm not scared of you come at me bro" the only thing that would prevent him from defeating him might be the limitations that the valar places on his power while he is in human form as a member of the Istari
@aBoughtLemon To control Gothmog, Sauron would need to create a Ring of Power for Gothmog and get the balrog to put it on. I'm not sure Sauron could create a ring that strong and also create the One Ring to control that ring. It's also not clear that there were any other balrogs that survived the War of Wrath besides Durin's Bane, who hid himself very well after the war. Sauron didn't make an appearance in Middle-Earth for centuries afterwards. We can't say for sure what Gothmog would have done had he survived both the Fall of Gondolin and the War of Wrath but given the reactions of his peers, I think he would have found a good hole to hide in for a long time. I think what he would have done when he re-emerged would have depended highly on the situation in Middle-Earth at the time. For example, I can see him siding with Sauron if he re-emerged when Sauron was planning the war against the elves as Sauron was dominant through much of Middle-Earth at that time. If Gothmog didn't re-emerge until Sauron was in Númenor corrupting the Númenoreans, Gothmog may well have tried to take control of Sauron's forces in Middle-Earth. That would have been quite the surprise for Sauron when he fled back to Middle-Earth after the fall of Númenor.
Morgoth being the outright superior, I'm curious of Gothmog and Sauron's relationship if they are to be considered equal... if they both had survived, would they have been enemies, or at least rivals, both vying for domination of the other... the assumption is one wouldn't submit to the other willingly and any sort of alliance or peace may not last...
I believe Gothmog was more of a “punch first, think later” sort of guy, and was better at leading armies and at one-on-one combat. Sauron was a more intelligent sort of general who led from the rear. He was Morgoth’s true heir, being skilled in sorcery and corruption of creatures like werewolves. He was terrifying in battle, but not as good as Gothmog.
@@therealelderking5830 Let's be fair, Gothmog has worse combat feats compared to Sauron. The one time he goes one on one with an elf, he gets drowned, while Sauron decisively defeats Orodreth and Finrod, gets screwed over by prophecy against Huan, then goes up against Elendil and Gil-galad after cutting his way from Barad-dur to Mount Doom.
@@LordMortanius He did kill both Feanor and Fingon. That’s one more Noldor High King that Sauron has killed. He also took Hurin prisoner. The point about Finrod is exactly what I mean. Sauron is relatively weak in physical combat, but he makes up for it in sorcery, shapeshifting and songs of power.
@@therealelderking5830 He 7 on 1 a Feanor that had spent the day hacking through Morgoth's armies, and couldn't overcome Fingon until another Balrog swept a net over him. Gothmog is powerful, don't get me wrong, but Sauron is around the upper echelons of the Maiar. Sauron is still undiminished while the Balrogs, like Morgoth, were permanently incarnate.
@@therealelderking5830 Sauron would be well aware of how good in combat Gothmog was, so if he ever was to meet him in battle, or knowing he would in future meet him in battle, he would have a plan...
Balrog’s would be fantastic camping companions. They could cook hotdogs instantly without a campfire and they could easily bitch-slap a grizzly or a moose if either got too close.
Your channel is by far the best channel I've seen so far that breaks down Tolkien /MiddleEarth well done subbed a couple nights ago keep up the great work .
This Gothmog vid might be my favorite one you've done yet. You picked the right _Silmarillion_ quote, you didn't forget about Húrin, you covered everything, and I even lol'd at the aside about "battle names". Kudos.
Can we just pause and appreciate what an euphonious name "Ecthelion" is? It fits into Tolkien's Elvish names perfectly fine, but also evokes ancient Greek. Like "Glorfindel" evokes Latin. The thought that Tolkien gave to every word and name will always amaze me.
Thank you, Broken Sword! For specifically discussing Gothmog, the most epically named character that was never or yet to be on screen! As spoiled and enthralled as we are with Durin’s Bane, the Balrog of Moria. The books in the lore and legendarium and LotR community videos 📚 make up for the letdown cinematic highlighting of the cranky retail manager that was gothmog...the angry disfigured orc that inexplicably frightened Eowyn who had JUST defeated and annihilated the terrifying Witch King of Angmar, leader of the Ringwraiths.
Regarding Sauron and Gothmog, I can't see this being a long term relationship unless one (likely Sauron) was able to dominate the other. My expectation though is that they would separate and forge independent centres of power, perhaps warring with each other many times until one was lost or driven away. That would definitely be a thing to see !
Since Gothnog was the lord of Balrogs I think that if he had survived he would most likely also get Durin's Bane as one of his main enforcers in the third age. Not only that, since sauron had a hard time making Durin's bane even cooperate I think this time around gothmog and bane would not ally with Sauron in any kind of way. Durin's bane would then dominate the goblins of moria and make them join the armies of gothmog. Perhaps they'd build a fortress into the misty mountains too and slowly get all the orcs of the misty mountains under his reign (gundabad and moria). This would leave the already weakened sauron at that time immensely vulnarble and would either get destroyed by the Balrogs or the white council or he would flee to the east even earlier and amass an army of Easterlings and possibly southrons like the umbarians and haradrim.
Which, given his nature and status as the deceiver he might actually have tried to sway the White Council that Gothmog is the greater threat. Possibly feigning contrition. There'd be a lot of interesting backbiting and maneuvering in that story.
I just rewatched the movies with some accumulated lore knowledge from RUclips. It's crazy when you understand Gandalf and Saruman and Durin's Bane are all of the same race. Tolkien envisioned such a wonderful world.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
What if Gandalf had arrived in Lothlorien a day or two earlier and still caught up with the Fellowship of the Ring there? So he could have killed the Balrog after all.
There are, indeed, four metal bands called Gothmog - one from each of England, Sweden, Poland and Spain. The first three were active in the early years of this century, and the Spanish band around 2012. None seem to be still active.
I would love to see a cinematic trilogy surrounding the 1st age and the epic battles that took place. Especially now with CGI in a position to really do these creations justice
Considering how the elves of Lothlorien responded to the Fellowship after learning they had gone through Moria, where Durin's Bane was known by them not only dwell but was now active, I think Frodo and the others would have had an immensely difficult time on interacting with any elven folk.
In The Fall of Gondolin, one of the excerpts say he was so feared among all Elvendom in Middle-earth that Princess Idril & other Elven mothers in Gondolin used to tell Earendil & other elf children that ‘Gothmog will take you’ if they were disobedient.
He was feared...but did seem to always have help when going against the powerful Noldor princes or kings. He had another balrog attack from behind etc so I believe he could have been killed 1v1.
i would love an animated series or an other trilogy of movies of this age. a giant war and seeing balrogs and sauron on the battlefield among the orks just sound so cool
Imagine Gothmog and Smaug under the control of Sauron! Gorthmog and Smaug would have been devastating because they were intelligent and would have been able to function without the oversight of Sauron as well as offer him guidance.
YESSSSS!!! I love the illustration of Balrogs with TATTERED, functionless wings! Pieces of rancid flesh, (pearced in battle by Elven arrows, spears and firey catapults,) still dangling from the wings skeletal remains. To say that Balrogs didn't have wings is to minimize how truly menacing and lethal they once were, in both sky and land.
Tolkien was a truly talented story teller, I don't think anyone has equaled him to date. He seems to have maintained the balance between good and evil with the most colorful grace There was little chance that many really powerful beings could survive into the second and especially the third age without making the outcome of the entire story obvious and disinteresting
Excellent, thank you ! Although the focus here is on Gothmog and the balrogs, given their awesome strength and power, you do have to give some respect to the Noldor who are able to face off against them one on one. Their physical and martial prowess must surely have been supplemented by the residual light of Aman to allow them to do this.
The big thing to remember about the Gothmog Vs. Sauron debate is that Balrogs were pretty much specifically a combat oriented being. And Gothmog was the greatest among them. However, Sauron was a much more versatile magical being, second only to Morgoth in Black Power. Like Morgoth, Sauron was capable of taken a physically impressive form, like he did at the battle of the last alliance, and be an incredibly dangerous warrior. But his greater power was "Magic" as we know it in this world, And of course his ability to take various powerful forms, including that of a massive wearwolf.
I just realized, there was not one mentioned case of a Balrog being defeated without it being a suicide attack. Pretty crazy that they have slain whomever slayed them in return.
2:52 Gothmog was *not* equal to Sauron. Sauron was superior to him in the hierarchy and power also Gothmog and all other Balrogs considered as "the lesser Maiar spirits" while Sauron was "high Maiar spirit" by Tolkien: "Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"* [The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed] And Sauron was "The Chief Captain of Morgoth" so he was Gothmog's chief at the same time: "And there is Sauron. In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and *becoming his chief captain and servant."* [The Silmarillion, p 18]
@@michaels7325 I've heard literally everyone mention that hahaha they make it sound like a brick. I'm intending on doing it in small portions bit by bit and hope for the best
@@aarondemiri486 It's not a brick - but neither is it written like a novel (LoTR) or a fairy tale (The Hobbit). It's a book of tales and myths, like the Kalevala or the Eddas.
You would think the mightiest of balrogs would be greater than the greatest of high-elves. That said, it is also implied that Feanor and Fingon both fought one-on-one against Gothmog and were able to hold their ground, though not win. I think it is possible that Feanor and Fingolfin could have survived a one-on-one fight. It also clear that Gothmog and company did not want to face the seven sons of Feanor together, even though that had already largely defeated Feanor. Finrod also went against Sauron in song (which have power in Tolkien) for a while, but ultimately Sauron's power was greater, and this might have been the case for Fingon against Gothmog.
From "The Fall of Gondolin (The Original Tale)": "Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drove into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters." I read this for the first time last week and loved it. I especially love the final phrase "...after fiery battle in cool waters."
Absolutely things would have been different. Sauron's power was largely imbued into the ring, so when it was destroyed, so was that part of Sauron's power that was contained in it. But Gothmog made no such trinket. And we have seen what happenes when a Wizard, wielding one of the Elven Rings, fights a Balrog. Imagine having to fight one so fearsome it made Durin's Bane look smally by comparison. I sudder to think what might have been had Gothmog been in leauge with Sauron.
Great videos! I believe Gothmog would have allied with Sauron to weaken the West and then when the White City falls, he would have keep Mirkwood and Moria for himself.
To answer the question in the video at the end, i personally believe Durin's Bane was Sauron's servant. Because Sauron already had the nazgul, i believe he deployed Smaug, Shelob and Durin's Bane to cut off strategic points so that travel was made much more difficult. As for Gothmog himself suddenly appearing in the battle on the Pellinine Fields (excuse sp), he would've been a terrible blow against Gondor. But i think after the ring was destroyed, he would've run off and hidden too, just like Durin's Bane did after the battle of wrath.
Yes, things would have had to play out differently if goth mogg had survived into the third age, for example, Elrond and Galadriel would have to had gotten up off their asses and actually helped other than watch the fellowship from afar. It's great to be given gifts but it seems to me the best thing they could have given was some ass kickings to the orcs and nazgul and such.
cool video Jake I think Gothmog would be One of Sauron's Chief Captains maybe even higher in rank than the Witch - King which would be understandable considering he's a Maia
Sauron only had a fraction of his original power in the third age. he's was still by far the most powerful being though, in middle earth, Gothmog would probably still have his full power if he was around in the third age and he'd be the dark lord over Sauron due to Gothmog retaining much of his original power.
Gothmog may have been the General of Morgoth ..but Sauron was his Second in Command because of his brains ;) When talking about Gothmog and Sauron as being equals I think it means in a measure of magical/physical power not intelligence, patience/creativity. Since Sauron was the more cunning of them I am very sure that he would have at least tricked and subdued Gothmog as his second in command if not straight out dominated him with his will. But keep in mind that a Sauron of the second Age was another beast than weaker Sauron during the War of the Ring, so of course the timeline in which you compare those two is crucial.
Great question! I think the overall destiny of the story remains the same, since Tolkien stuck with the premise that those who are pure of heart can overcome the darkness. (And let’s face it, Balrog vs Hobbit would just end in a gooey puddle of Hobbit, so physical strength and fighting ability would not affect the ending anyway).However, the battles would been more like a series of massacres! Gothmog went toe to toe with Noldor hosts and won twice. Gandalf the White would have had a tough battle on his hands, and that leaves the rest of the armies vulnerable. He would have been stronger than Sauron as well, since he would have been in a slumber and would not have been stripped of power.
Greats points! Gothmog never wasted power on getting orcs et al to obey his orders. He should be more powerful than Sauron if he lived at the end of the Third Age.
@@Enerdhil Gothmog was already inherently weaker than Sauron in the First Age. Morgoth's Ring: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"
@@LordMortanius Even if Gothmog is less power than Sauron, it isn't by much. They were equal in Morgoth's mind in the First Age. That quote was comparing the two when Gothmog was alive, which was only until the end of the First Age. Sauron poured a lot of his power into the rings in the Second Age. He also poured even more power into the Witch King and the other Nazguls. If Gothmog lives till the end of the Third Age, I think he should be more powerful than Sauron because he keeps his power for himself.
@@LordMortanius I responded to what you posted the first time. I guess you didn't read my response. Morgoth put both on equal ground when it came to commanding his armies. Gothmog was the greatest Balrog. Also it seems reasonable to believe that Gothmog was hand-picked by Morgoth and given some of his powers. Sauron took over 3,000 years to reembody himself. How much power did he lose just doing that?
@@Enerdhil Three thousand...? We don't actually know how long it took for Sauron to regain a physical shape, but he was already corporeal when in Dol Guldur. We also already know how powerful Sauron was during the Third Age; as per Letter 131: 'While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Gothmog made Morgoth's mistake, becoming permanently incarnate in his corporeal form (just as all the balrogs); Morgoth was stuck as the crippled Dark Lord just the same. Gothmog gets a lot of hype because he's a big demon, but Sauron has simply demonstrated greater feats - Tolkien certainly thought that he could create tidal waves. Sauron in his natural state was very, very powerful - certainly powerful enough that while wearing the One Ring, he was explicitly stronger than Morgoth at the War of Wrath. It's telling that the one who was explicitly trusted with aiding Melkor in his creations and blasphemies against Eru was not Gothmog but Sauron, which certainly implies that Melkor held Sauron to a higher standard. Morgoth's Ring also flat out states that the balrogs were considered lesser spirits - if anything, they were more like Curumo or Olorin, instead of Eonwe or Mairon.
I believe that if Gothmog was around in the Third Age the free peoples would need to be much more potent in their actions. Though it may risk the very survival of their people I think Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Thranduil, ect would need to take direct and unified action against Gothmog and Sauron in force of arms to bring their defeat.
I would love to see a video explaining how elves did battle with a Balrog. And does Galadriel's statement "we are diminished" have anything to do with it. Does she mean "diminished" as in: population, size or power? Or all of these combined?
Galadriel in the First Age was vastly more powerful than she was in the Third. Pretty much all elves were. I don’t think Galadriel or Elrond could have ridden up to Mordor and wounded Sauron in single-combat like Fingolfin did to Morgoth.
It'd maybe play out differently if all maia band together with allied forces of Gondor and sindar elves and I mean all maia, eagles and all wizards minus Saruman the Dik and granted if the blues haven't perished also maybe if the Valar grant all wizards their original maia forms. Great video.
I think if Gothmog has survived into the 2nd and 3rd Ages, then the history of those Ages would have been totally different. Where I cannot see Gothmog serving Sauron, though temporary alliances would be possible. It is always possible that Sauron would be the junior partner in such an alliance, after all during the 1st Age Sauron was not as important as Gothmog and did not do that much, yes he killed Finrod, but I cannot remember any mention of him commanding troops in any of the battles. That said as a threat to the Free People of Middle Earth, I believe that Gothmog would be the more dangerous of the two, where Gothmog's sheer strength and brute force may be balance by Sauron's cunning and guile, Gothmog would be in command of any other surviving Balrogs (so Durin's Bane and any other that hid in the dark places of the world), with the orcs being divided between them. Plus during the 1st Age Melkor used the Balrogs to control the dragons, which could mean that a surviving Gothmog would have dragons in his army. Picture the battle of Five Armies with Smaug backed by Druin's Bane, Gothmog and other dragons!!! The reduced armies of good, Elves, Man and Dwarfs would be hard pushed to defend against such a force, even Numenour at its height might find it difficult the hold any land in those portions of Middle Earth claimed by Gothmog.
Quick question for you, lads: is it only blades forged in Gondolin that kill Balrogs (thinking Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf with Glamdring). If so, do you have a theory as to why?
IF it is the case (and I don't see why - or why not), it may be more due to magic and enchantments woven into the forging, rather than the material - think of the damage that Merry's sword did to the Nazgûl/Witch-king: it had been forged with that enemy in mind.
@@dlevi67 thanks - I was wondering if it was something along those lines! The most obvious difficulty with my theory is that Ecthelion headbutts Gothmog into the fountain, so we’d have to expand the definition of blades to include helmet pommels which seems a bit far-fetched to me!
@@susannahdarby6698 Ecthelion was a gentle-elf, and would not have had the bad manners of not ending an adversary rightly! ruclips.net/video/jETLCm7k3sU/видео.html&ab_channel=Skallagrim
Some balrogs are killed in War of wrath, so by weapons from Valinor. I don't think this is have something to do with weapon, just with warrior's skill.
Regarding the supposition of Gothmog surviving into the third age and what it might have meant, well I doubt the one ring would ever have been created because Sauron couldn't have risked dividing his own strength, Gothmog was his EQUAL in rank and likely in power. There is a good chance that Sauron and Gothmog would have been in conflict with each other as well as Elves and Men.
Gothmog was not Sauron's equal. Tolkien described the Balrogs as Lesser Maiar and Sauron as High/great Maiar: "Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"* [The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed] Also the Silmarillion says that Sauron was Gothmog's chief
Balrogs answered to Morgoth not to Sauron. Morgoth was their master. I believe Tolkien wrote in notes, letters, or whatnot that Morgoth could/might return but that idea wasnt addressed in published works. The One Ring heard its masters call. Id think the balrogs would wait till they heard theirs. My guess is that Gothmog would neither help nor interfere with Sauron’s plans. Hed wait. Who knows tho! Kewl vid.
I've always thought that LOTR is just perfect for alternative history/alt universe type writing. If I were to write it, it would be dire since I'd probably focus on keeping some of these great big bads alive. Like Gothmog or the father of dragons etc. But yeah, I'm 100% certain that Sauron would have gotten his ring back and won if he had Gothmog as his ally. Though they both would probably betray the heck out of each other once the time was right lol.
Having Gothmog at the third age will definitely change the odds, however I'm not sure what would happen, not sure even if Durin's Bane being Maia same as Sauron would pledge as vassal of Sauron... or joint forces against elves most likely.
Saurons influence was already a tough task.. what about another being who used to be on par with him in rank and the probably ferocity.. I think how we know the third age wouldve been a cake walk compared to that hypothetical.
I just wanna know how deep was that fountain lol... I could see if they fell off a cliff into an ocean but a fountain that sounds like he was nerfed to me. I have some reading to do
Well actually no, one thing is that Sauron as mairon was already among most powerfull Maiar, equeal probably only to Eonwe and Osse, and did not dimnished his power contrary to Melkor, also it is stated he was probably the wisest and most inteligent of the Ainur, that is why Melkor wanted to corrupt him and gave him Angband when he was resided in Utumno and made him his right hand. Gothmog on other hand was also great Maia but not among the most powerfull (he was among the rank comaprable to Saruman nd Gandalf when they were not hiding their power) becouse we need to remember that balrogs where all in all 7 in total and Tolkien made them extremly powerfull than it was in the first draft of Legendarium (when there were hundreds of the but less powerfull). Gothmog was powerfull but he was the one to execute on to govern
No, Gothmog was a lesser Maiar while Sauron was a high/great Maiar: "Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"* [The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed] And Sauron was "The Chief Captain of Morgoth" so he was Gothmog's chief at the same time: "And there is Sauron. In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and *becoming his chief captain and servant."* [The Silmarillion, p 18] So if Gothmog was alive during the Sauron's era, he could have been forced to serve Sauron or Sauron would 'destroy' him because Sauron would see him as a treat to his dominion. Sauron rules the weather, lightning and the storms, he raises the mountain-sized waves of the sea, he erupts the massive volcanoes and earthquakes at will. His mere dark presence causes the greatest elven warriors to flee in fear and dismay. Sauron is the Maia who broke the power of Ulmo(the second most powerful Valar) and his Maia Uinen's power within the Tol-Sirion. Sauron managed to defy the might lightning of Manwe(the Most powerful Valar) at the topmost of the temple of Melkor in Numenor. Sauron had been described as " the greatest servant of Morgoth " thrice. He was superior to Gothmog in every case
That bit really depends on one's individual speculations: would Gothmog ally with Sauron, or would Sauron have a competiton from his equal of the darkness. In this situation it is likely that Sauron would go for the diplomatic way, promising whatever Balrogs he comes to terms with that they would share middle earth as kings and gods, plannig to get rid of them all as soon as he gets back into his former self and not just middle earth, but Arda alltogether is conquered by Morgoth's host
Those two high Kings of gondolin deserve some major props.! They did not go out like bitches to say the least they fought those bad guys with their very soul and they may have lost but they saved thousands of others there is no other greater deed on any Earth
I could imagine if he did survived him and Durin Bane would of either teamed up with Sauron and with Smaug if he survived too, and Saruman then Middle Earth and the free people would of been in chaos and the War of the Ring would of been really worse, or Gothmog with Durin Bane would of fought against both Sauron and the free people.
I do not think the Valar, after defeating and capturing Morgoth, would have suffered Gothmog to just run free. So there's little chance Gothmog would've made it to the 3rd Age in any event.
Could you give us a ballpark estimate for when the short film may be released, and roughly about how long it may be, please? I'm super excited about this for you guys and myself also, I know it will be great! Keep up the great work my fellow LOTR fanatics!!!
Very hard to say. We have obviously been thrown so far behind with the pandemic. But we are still hoping to have it done by end of next year :) Part 1 is likely to be 25-30 minutes :)
@@TheBrokenSword part one! I didn't know it was a multi parrt deal! Thanks for the reply, and I love what you guys are doing with the LOTR and all that goes with it! I'll be joining you guys on patreon, may not be much but I'll do what I can!
Due to the fact Gothmog was a spirit of fire and destruction, and sauron a spirit of domination and control. I believe if gothmog had survived the war of wrath he would have revealed himself very early into the second age. If he did not I imagine he would have been in a slumber like durins bane. Either the white council knowing of gothmogs existence likely would have confronted and defeated or attempted to weaken him prior to Daytona return in the third age or not knowing his existence I imagine he would have awoken or been drawn to Saurons growing power similar to Smaug, sauron would absolutely have been his superior. But I believe Gandalf or glorfindel would have been allowed by the valar to use there new power in confronting the Balrogs magic in a way he would not be able to against sauron and would ultimately prove victorious. Being that Gandalf and the fellowships quests is in nature’s meant to be victorious but it likely would have been a hugely important and destructive battle
If Gothmog had survived and been working along with Sauron, I feel that one major thing would've changed. I feel the War of the Last Alliance would've been lost by the Free Peoples and the Ring wouldn't leave Sauron's hand. Gothmog would easily be able to dispatch Gil-Galad himself which would leave Sauron not fatigued, leaving him to kill Elendil.
I don't think so. Gil-Galad was a beast himself. I don't think Gothmog could gave stood against Gil- Galad alone. He couldn't even stand against Ecthalion.
@@michaelharmon7052 I think he would be enough to make a difference, making it a 2v2 instead of the 1v2 which saw everyone involved thrown down. That and Gothmog would be able to gather any other Balrogs such as Durin's Bane or any others that still lie in the darker places of the world. I'm just generally of the opinion that everything had to go *perfectly* for the Free Peoples to achieve their victory against Sauron.
@@Swatman170 Tuor killed 5 balrogs single handedly and Ecthelion killed 3. I don't think The balrogs were capable of withstanding the might of the elves alone. Just look a at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth alone. While i think it would have been more difficult to defeat the dark lord had these balrogs not died early on. I still believe it would have ended the way it ended either way.
@@michaelharmon7052 I seriously doubt that since even against just sauron the aliance *barley* achieved victory and since sauron was weaker at the end of the second age than in the first age gothmog could have been just as or maybe even slightly stronger than sauron if he survived up til then
Tolkien did come up with some awesome names for the various battles in middle-earth. However he must have given up when he named a battle between the elves and Sauron. He called it, "The Battle Between The Elves and Sauron."... SOO creative. lol
I think if Gothmog survived until the third age and we saw him allied with Sauron he would’ve been at the Pelennor fields where we would see him and Glorfindel defeat one another.
that would be cool, but tbh, gothmog would likely ignore the war, and sauron. kinda like durin's bain. if the heroes happened to cross his path, he would fight. but otherwise, he would feel unmotivated by sauron. melkor was more focused on destruction as revenge, on illuvitar. sauron wants order above all. the balrogs seem only loyal to morgoth.
Can you explain how Gothmog was killed when his flame was extinguished, how did Durin's bane survive the plunge into the icy cold waters under the misty mountains when fighting Gandalf?
Wasn't there a ring that controlled water? If all it took was water to kill this guy I think one of the elves would have figured out a way to do so where he would not have made it very far in the third age.
I think a third age with Gothmog AND Sauron is terrifying. He's probably close enough in power to contest Sauron, so I doubt he would serve him unless forced or bound to Sauron's will. Sauron would probably approach him with an alliance to take out the free people's and divide Middle Earth; planning to divide it later, kill Gothmog and take it all. We don't really know anything about his personality but we know he's warlike so IF he accepts that alliance Middle Earth is super boned. If Gothmog rejects then he'd probably go to war with Sauron as if he'd survived the imprisonment of Morgoth he would most likely have gathered forces to himself. The outcome of that war could be terrible if it fell outside of Mordor but if it were resigned to the east then ME actually gets more time to prepare for the inevitable war with whoever wins between Gothmog and Sauron. Anyway his survival to the third age would probably change the timeline in a lot of ways. I could easily see him taking up the Dark Lord mantle before Sauron's return to Middle Earth
I'd say just like the one in moria, without a master or direction he would have slept away in a cavern of sorts . Before anyone says saruman had control of that balrog I don't think that was what was happening. I think he sensed the wizards power and recognized it to be a foe. I also heard the goblins of moria worshiped the balrog as some kinda god lol
Great video but it contains one of my least favorite clips from LotR. 1:28 The witch king was terrified of Gandalf. He was powerful yes, but nothing compared to a Maia at full power (which he was as Gandalf the White)
I don't think anyone can get enough Balrog content. Thanks for all the hard work!
One fine creation
I'm pretty sure the Dwarves can get enough of Balrogs..
Sometimes the less you describe and the more mystery you leave, the more interested people become in what you have made.
Yeah it's sick, I wish the movies had a full on balrog instead of this orcish form
you are me and I am you
Balrogs are by FAR my favorite Fantasy Demons. They just exude this mythical and Timeless Power from them. Far more than dragons ever did imo.
The remind me of the lesser and greater demons in old school runescape! If you've every player that game haha
Tolkien would have totally had a max account on rs
@@jacobburr3570 this comment makes me wish Tolkien could have spoken with Michael Kirkbride
@@jacobburr3570 took the woods right out of my mouth haha
Yeah once I found our their total history they lost a bit of mystery, when I read Lord of the Rings as a kid, the way Gandalf described them blew my mind. He was terrified and vague.
Thanks admiralbulldog
Awesome video. I think if Gothmog had survived and worked with Sauron in the War of the Ring I think it would have been a lot harder of a fight, especially at the battle of the black gate and more people would die. However ultimately Sam and Frodo would still be able to destroy the ring since it hadn’t even crossed Saurons mind that anyone would choose to destroy it in spite of its corrupting influence.
@Amanda 🌷🍀.! Gothmog was absurdly powerful, way more powerful than Gandalf the white. so he'd probably be able to banish them with some kind of spell or command.
The big question would be would Gothmog ally with Sauron or would the two of them each vie to be the new dark lord.
@Amanda 🌷🍀.! I don't think the witch king would be able to over power Gandalf the White. IT's hard to say. He breaks his staff, but he's also made from a being of his rank. Gandalf is above him in class, being a Maiar. Where the witch king is as about as supremely corrupted a human can be, it's still not the same ? Gandalf kills the Balrog in Moria as Gandalf the Grey, and a Balrog is more powerful than a corrupted human. But I'm not an expert.
@@JensenDKMG85 no your right. Orlin (gandalf) could bitch slap the witch king. Btw his staff only broke in the movies. In the books he and the witch king had a steardown at the gates and Gandalf basically said "I'm not scared of you come at me bro" the only thing that would prevent him from defeating him might be the limitations that the valar places on his power while he is in human form as a member of the Istari
@aBoughtLemon To control Gothmog, Sauron would need to create a Ring of Power for Gothmog and get the balrog to put it on. I'm not sure Sauron could create a ring that strong and also create the One Ring to control that ring. It's also not clear that there were any other balrogs that survived the War of Wrath besides Durin's Bane, who hid himself very well after the war. Sauron didn't make an appearance in Middle-Earth for centuries afterwards. We can't say for sure what Gothmog would have done had he survived both the Fall of Gondolin and the War of Wrath but given the reactions of his peers, I think he would have found a good hole to hide in for a long time. I think what he would have done when he re-emerged would have depended highly on the situation in Middle-Earth at the time. For example, I can see him siding with Sauron if he re-emerged when Sauron was planning the war against the elves as Sauron was dominant through much of Middle-Earth at that time. If Gothmog didn't re-emerge until Sauron was in Númenor corrupting the Númenoreans, Gothmog may well have tried to take control of Sauron's forces in Middle-Earth. That would have been quite the surprise for Sauron when he fled back to Middle-Earth after the fall of Númenor.
Morgoth being the outright superior, I'm curious of Gothmog and Sauron's relationship if they are to be considered equal... if they both had survived, would they have been enemies, or at least rivals, both vying for domination of the other... the assumption is one wouldn't submit to the other willingly and any sort of alliance or peace may not last...
I believe Gothmog was more of a “punch first, think later” sort of guy, and was better at leading armies and at one-on-one combat.
Sauron was a more intelligent sort of general who led from the rear. He was Morgoth’s true heir, being skilled in sorcery and corruption of creatures like werewolves. He was terrifying in battle, but not as good as Gothmog.
@@therealelderking5830 Let's be fair, Gothmog has worse combat feats compared to Sauron. The one time he goes one on one with an elf, he gets drowned, while Sauron decisively defeats Orodreth and Finrod, gets screwed over by prophecy against Huan, then goes up against Elendil and Gil-galad after cutting his way from Barad-dur to Mount Doom.
@@LordMortanius He did kill both Feanor and Fingon. That’s one more Noldor High King that Sauron has killed.
He also took Hurin prisoner.
The point about Finrod is exactly what I mean. Sauron is relatively weak in physical combat, but he makes up for it in sorcery, shapeshifting and songs of power.
@@therealelderking5830 He 7 on 1 a Feanor that had spent the day hacking through Morgoth's armies, and couldn't overcome Fingon until another Balrog swept a net over him. Gothmog is powerful, don't get me wrong, but Sauron is around the upper echelons of the Maiar. Sauron is still undiminished while the Balrogs, like Morgoth, were permanently incarnate.
@@therealelderking5830 Sauron would be well aware of how good in combat Gothmog was, so if he ever was to meet him in battle, or knowing he would in future meet him in battle, he would have a plan...
Balrog’s would be fantastic camping companions.
They could cook hotdogs instantly without a campfire and they could easily bitch-slap a grizzly or a moose if either got too close.
What moose ,bear meat taists great charred
That’s certainly one use of an ancient powerful demon
You can have smores anytime you want it with that dude around lol.
I feel like a Hobbit wrote this comment 😂
I always loved Gothmog. But to me it was always funny how the strongest and largest of the Balrogs, was killed by being pushed into a fountain lol
The other two whose fates are known both fell off cliffs.
Your channel is by far the best channel I've seen so far that breaks down Tolkien /MiddleEarth well done subbed a couple nights ago keep up the great work .
This Gothmog vid might be my favorite one you've done yet. You picked the right _Silmarillion_ quote, you didn't forget about Húrin, you covered everything, and I even lol'd at the aside about "battle names". Kudos.
Can we just pause and appreciate what an euphonious name "Ecthelion" is? It fits into Tolkien's Elvish names perfectly fine, but also evokes ancient Greek. Like "Glorfindel" evokes Latin. The thought that Tolkien gave to every word and name will always amaze me.
except most of the dwarfs
The drawing at 5:35 is the best representation of a balrog I've ever seen. Perfect size, no wings. Beautiful.
Looks just like the one in the movie.. just sized down..
Please make more videos focused on Balrogs. They are fantastic creatures! The best!!
Thank you, Broken Sword! For specifically discussing Gothmog, the most epically named character that was never or yet to be on screen! As spoiled and enthralled as we are with Durin’s Bane, the Balrog of Moria. The books in the lore and legendarium and LotR community videos 📚 make up for the letdown cinematic highlighting of the cranky retail manager that was gothmog...the angry disfigured orc that inexplicably frightened Eowyn who had JUST defeated and annihilated the terrifying Witch King of Angmar, leader of the Ringwraiths.
Thank you for this. Gothmog is one of my favorites from Morgoths side.
Would have been interesting to see him at War of Wrath.
I appreciate this one, thank you @The Broken Sword
A fitting end. It seems like Sauron, Gothmog too was killed due to his arrogance.
Regarding Sauron and Gothmog, I can't see this being a long term relationship unless one (likely Sauron) was able to dominate the other. My expectation though is that they would separate and forge independent centres of power, perhaps warring with each other many times until one was lost or driven away. That would definitely be a thing to see !
Since Gothnog was the lord of Balrogs I think that if he had survived he would most likely also get Durin's Bane as one of his main enforcers in the third age. Not only that, since sauron had a hard time making Durin's bane even cooperate I think this time around gothmog and bane would not ally with Sauron in any kind of way. Durin's bane would then dominate the goblins of moria and make them join the armies of gothmog. Perhaps they'd build a fortress into the misty mountains too and slowly get all the orcs of the misty mountains under his reign (gundabad and moria). This would leave the already weakened sauron at that time immensely vulnarble and would either get destroyed by the Balrogs or the white council or he would flee to the east even earlier and amass an army of Easterlings and possibly southrons like the umbarians and haradrim.
Which, given his nature and status as the deceiver he might actually have tried to sway the White Council that Gothmog is the greater threat. Possibly feigning contrition. There'd be a lot of interesting backbiting and maneuvering in that story.
I just rewatched the movies with some accumulated lore knowledge from RUclips. It's crazy when you understand Gandalf and Saruman and Durin's Bane are all of the same race. Tolkien envisioned such a wonderful world.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
What if Gandalf had arrived in Lothlorien a day or two earlier and still caught up with the Fellowship of the Ring there? So he could have killed the Balrog after all.
I would have loved to see what an alliance of gothmog and sauron do, assuming the valar didn't step in
Gothmog is probably also a metal band
There are, indeed, four metal bands called Gothmog - one from each of England, Sweden, Poland and Spain. The first three were active in the early years of this century, and the Spanish band around 2012. None seem to be still active.
To be fair there's a metal band for every custom name from tolkien mythos
hehe, true
Great video! I was wondering if you guys could do a video on the unnamed beings below Moria?
Reallly coool ! Can we get a video about "The Nameless Things" ??
I would love to see a cinematic trilogy surrounding the 1st age and the epic battles that took place. Especially now with CGI in a position to really do these creations justice
Considering how the elves of Lothlorien responded to the Fellowship after learning they had gone through Moria, where Durin's Bane was known by them not only dwell but was now active, I think Frodo and the others would have had an immensely difficult time on interacting with any elven folk.
In The Fall of Gondolin, one of the excerpts say he was so feared among all Elvendom in Middle-earth that Princess Idril & other Elven mothers in Gondolin used to tell Earendil & other elf children that ‘Gothmog will take you’ if they were disobedient.
He was feared...but did seem to always have help when going against the powerful Noldor princes or kings. He had another balrog attack from behind etc so I believe he could have been killed 1v1.
i would love an animated series or an other trilogy of movies of this age. a giant war and seeing balrogs and sauron on the battlefield among the orks just sound so cool
Imagine Gothmog and Smaug under the control of Sauron! Gorthmog and Smaug would have been devastating because they were intelligent and would have been able to function without the oversight of Sauron as well as offer him guidance.
gothmog would not have been under the control of sauron though, they would most likely collide if they were still both present in the 3rd age
YESSSSS!!!
I love the illustration of Balrogs with TATTERED, functionless wings! Pieces of rancid flesh, (pearced in battle by Elven arrows, spears and firey catapults,) still dangling from the wings skeletal remains.
To say that Balrogs didn't have wings is to minimize how truly menacing and lethal they once were, in both sky and land.
Tolkien was a truly talented story teller, I don't think anyone has equaled him to date.
He seems to have maintained the balance between good and evil with the most colorful grace
There was little chance that many really powerful beings could survive into the second and especially the third age without making the outcome of the entire story obvious and disinteresting
Tolkien was to the English-language novel what Shakespeare was to the English-language stage.
Excellent, thank you ! Although the focus here is on Gothmog and the balrogs, given their awesome strength and power, you do have to give some respect to the Noldor who are able to face off against them one on one. Their physical and martial prowess must surely have been supplemented by the residual light of Aman to allow them to do this.
“If Eru had wanted you to live, he would not not have allowed the existence of ME!” *Draws garage door sized axe*
-Gothmog to the elves probably.
This video is a good example why I prefer First Age material, and why _The Silmarillion_ is my favorite book and shall always be.
The big thing to remember about the Gothmog Vs. Sauron debate is that Balrogs were pretty much specifically a combat oriented being. And Gothmog was the greatest among them. However, Sauron was a much more versatile magical being, second only to Morgoth in Black Power. Like Morgoth, Sauron was capable of taken a physically impressive form, like he did at the battle of the last alliance, and be an incredibly dangerous warrior. But his greater power was "Magic" as we know it in this world, And of course his ability to take various powerful forms, including that of a massive wearwolf.
Free people would have been lost if Gothmog had been around in third age
Great vid, by the way👍
I just realized, there was not one mentioned case of a Balrog being defeated without it being a suicide attack. Pretty crazy that they have slain whomever slayed them in return.
Yea but Gandalf returned from the deads
Dude your so awsome , I wish u the best for ur Channel and that u get more subs bro 💯💯💯
Everyone always says he beat him INTO dust, but isn’t the line “beat him into THE dust”? That’s quite a difference!!
2:52 Gothmog was *not* equal to Sauron. Sauron was superior to him in the hierarchy and power also Gothmog and all other Balrogs considered as "the lesser Maiar spirits" while Sauron was "high Maiar spirit" by Tolkien:
"Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"*
[The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed]
And Sauron was "The Chief Captain of Morgoth" so he was Gothmog's chief at the same time:
"And there is Sauron. In the Silmarillion
and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service
of the Enemy and *becoming his chief captain and servant."*
[The Silmarillion, p 18]
one day I'm gonna read the Silmarillion and I cannot wait for it
Audible bro
It's a frustrating read dude. It's nowhere near as entertaining as the RUclips creators who consolidate the material into digestible content.
@@michaels7325 I've heard literally everyone mention that hahaha they make it sound like a brick. I'm intending on doing it in small portions bit by bit and hope for the best
@@duncanramsay9262 audio sounds like the best idea xd
@@aarondemiri486 It's not a brick - but neither is it written like a novel (LoTR) or a fairy tale (The Hobbit). It's a book of tales and myths, like the Kalevala or the Eddas.
He was scary son of a b....😂, as always amazing and great video. Love your content and your channel....When is the livestream?
You would think the mightiest of balrogs would be greater than the greatest of high-elves. That said, it is also implied that Feanor and Fingon both fought one-on-one against Gothmog and were able to hold their ground, though not win. I think it is possible that Feanor and Fingolfin could have survived a one-on-one fight. It also clear that Gothmog and company did not want to face the seven sons of Feanor together, even though that had already largely defeated Feanor. Finrod also went against Sauron in song (which have power in Tolkien) for a while, but ultimately Sauron's power was greater, and this might have been the case for Fingon against Gothmog.
Great video, guys! Keep it up!
From "The Fall of Gondolin (The Original Tale)": "Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drove into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters."
I read this for the first time last week and loved it. I especially love the final phrase "...after fiery battle in cool waters."
*the broken sword or nerd of the rings uploads video* I click video and hit like, easy as that
Absolutely things would have been different. Sauron's power was largely imbued into the ring, so when it was destroyed, so was that part of Sauron's power that was contained in it. But Gothmog made no such trinket. And we have seen what happenes when a Wizard, wielding one of the Elven Rings, fights a Balrog. Imagine having to fight one so fearsome it made Durin's Bane look smally by comparison. I sudder to think what might have been had Gothmog been in leauge with Sauron.
A what if video on what if gothmog survived first age would be great to watch
Love your channel
Great videos! I believe Gothmog would have allied with Sauron to weaken the West and then when the White City falls, he would have keep Mirkwood and Moria for himself.
Thanks! Yeah I would say thats a fairly likely scenario 😊
To answer the question in the video at the end, i personally believe Durin's Bane was Sauron's servant. Because Sauron already had the nazgul, i believe he deployed Smaug, Shelob and Durin's Bane to cut off strategic points so that travel was made much more difficult. As for Gothmog himself suddenly appearing in the battle on the Pellinine Fields (excuse sp), he would've been a terrible blow against Gondor. But i think after the ring was destroyed, he would've run off and hidden too, just like Durin's Bane did after the battle of wrath.
Yes, things would have had to play out differently if goth mogg had survived into the third age, for example, Elrond and Galadriel would have to had gotten up off their asses and actually helped other than watch the fellowship from afar. It's great to be given gifts but it seems to me the best thing they could have given was some ass kickings to the orcs and nazgul and such.
cool video Jake I think Gothmog would be One of Sauron's Chief Captains maybe even higher in rank than the Witch - King which would be understandable considering he's a Maia
Sauron only had a fraction of his original power in the third age. he's was still by far the most powerful being though, in middle earth, Gothmog would probably still have his full power if he was around in the third age and he'd be the dark lord over Sauron due to Gothmog retaining much of his original power.
Gothmog may have been the General of Morgoth ..but Sauron was his Second in Command because of his brains ;)
When talking about Gothmog and Sauron as being equals I think it means in a measure of magical/physical power not intelligence, patience/creativity. Since Sauron was the more cunning of them I am very sure that he would have at least tricked and subdued Gothmog as his second in command if not straight out dominated him with his will. But keep in mind that a Sauron of the second Age was another beast than weaker Sauron during the War of the Ring, so of course the timeline in which you compare those two is crucial.
Great question! I think the overall destiny of the story remains the same, since Tolkien stuck with the premise that those who are pure of heart can overcome the darkness. (And let’s face it, Balrog vs Hobbit would just end in a gooey puddle of Hobbit, so physical strength and fighting ability would not affect the ending anyway).However, the battles would been more like a series of massacres! Gothmog went toe to toe with Noldor hosts and won twice. Gandalf the White would have had a tough battle on his hands, and that leaves the rest of the armies vulnerable. He would have been stronger than Sauron as well, since he would have been in a slumber and would not have been stripped of power.
Greats points! Gothmog never wasted power on getting orcs et al to obey his orders. He should be more powerful than Sauron if he lived at the end of the Third Age.
@@Enerdhil Gothmog was already inherently weaker than Sauron in the First Age. Morgoth's Ring: "Melkor had corrupted many spirits -
some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"
@@LordMortanius
Even if Gothmog is less power than Sauron, it isn't by much. They were equal in Morgoth's mind in the First Age. That quote was comparing the two when Gothmog was alive, which was only until the end of the First Age. Sauron poured a lot of his power into the rings in the Second Age. He also poured even more power into the Witch King and the other Nazguls. If Gothmog lives till the end of the Third Age, I think he should be more powerful than Sauron because he keeps his power for himself.
@@LordMortanius I responded to what you posted the first time. I guess you didn't read my response. Morgoth put both on equal ground when it came to commanding his armies. Gothmog was the greatest Balrog. Also it seems reasonable to believe that Gothmog was hand-picked by Morgoth and given some of his powers. Sauron took over 3,000 years to reembody himself. How much power did he lose just doing that?
@@Enerdhil Three thousand...? We don't actually know how long it took for Sauron to regain a physical shape, but he was already corporeal when in Dol Guldur. We also already know how powerful Sauron was during the Third Age; as per Letter 131: 'While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Gothmog made Morgoth's mistake, becoming permanently incarnate in his corporeal form (just as all the balrogs); Morgoth was stuck as the crippled Dark Lord just the same.
Gothmog gets a lot of hype because he's a big demon, but Sauron has simply demonstrated greater feats - Tolkien certainly thought that he could create tidal waves.
Sauron in his natural state was very, very powerful - certainly powerful enough that while wearing the One Ring, he was explicitly stronger than Morgoth at the War of Wrath. It's telling that the one who was explicitly trusted with aiding Melkor in his creations and blasphemies against Eru was not Gothmog but Sauron, which certainly implies that Melkor held Sauron to a higher standard. Morgoth's Ring also flat out states that the balrogs were considered lesser spirits - if anything, they were more like Curumo or Olorin, instead of Eonwe or Mairon.
Can you do one about Lungorthin? His fire burned white, and that always struck me.
I believe that if Gothmog was around in the Third Age the free peoples would need to be much more potent in their actions. Though it may risk the very survival of their people I think Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Thranduil, ect would need to take direct and unified action against Gothmog and Sauron in force of arms to bring their defeat.
Another Last Alliance..... You are probably right. Proactive warfare has a better chance of success than reactive warfare, me thinks.
I would love to see a video explaining how elves did battle with a Balrog. And does Galadriel's statement "we are diminished" have anything to do with it. Does she mean "diminished" as in: population, size or power? Or all of these combined?
the Elven rings were diminished as was her own power in a way
Galadriel in the First Age was vastly more powerful than she was in the Third. Pretty much all elves were.
I don’t think Galadriel or Elrond could have ridden up to Mordor and wounded Sauron in single-combat like Fingolfin did to Morgoth.
Ecthelion is just a beast
Sweet vid thank you
I'm sure things would've been somewhat different but Saurons defeat was inevitable because evil underestimated Hobbits.
It'd maybe play out differently if all maia band together with allied forces of Gondor and sindar elves and I mean all maia, eagles and all wizards minus Saruman the Dik and granted if the blues haven't perished also maybe if the Valar grant all wizards their original maia forms. Great video.
Can't wait for the Amazon series
I think if Gothmog has survived into the 2nd and 3rd Ages, then the history of those Ages would have been totally different. Where I cannot see Gothmog serving Sauron, though temporary alliances would be possible. It is always possible that Sauron would be the junior partner in such an alliance, after all during the 1st Age Sauron was not as important as Gothmog and did not do that much, yes he killed Finrod, but I cannot remember any mention of him commanding troops in any of the battles.
That said as a threat to the Free People of Middle Earth, I believe that Gothmog would be the more dangerous of the two, where Gothmog's sheer strength and brute force may be balance by Sauron's cunning and guile, Gothmog would be in command of any other surviving Balrogs (so Durin's Bane and any other that hid in the dark places of the world), with the orcs being divided between them. Plus during the 1st Age Melkor used the Balrogs to control the dragons, which could mean that a surviving Gothmog would have dragons in his army. Picture the battle of Five Armies with Smaug backed by Druin's Bane, Gothmog and other dragons!!! The reduced armies of good, Elves, Man and Dwarfs would be hard pushed to defend against such a force, even Numenour at its height might find it difficult the hold any land in those portions of Middle Earth claimed by Gothmog.
Quick question for you, lads: is it only blades forged in Gondolin that kill Balrogs (thinking Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf with Glamdring). If so, do you have a theory as to why?
That’s a great question… maybe they found a precious metal in the nearby mountains and didn’t reveal it to anybody else?
IF it is the case (and I don't see why - or why not), it may be more due to magic and enchantments woven into the forging, rather than the material - think of the damage that Merry's sword did to the Nazgûl/Witch-king: it had been forged with that enemy in mind.
@@dlevi67 thanks - I was wondering if it was something along those lines! The most obvious difficulty with my theory is that Ecthelion headbutts Gothmog into the fountain, so we’d have to expand the definition of blades to include helmet pommels which seems a bit far-fetched to me!
@@susannahdarby6698 Ecthelion was a gentle-elf, and would not have had the bad manners of not ending an adversary rightly!
ruclips.net/video/jETLCm7k3sU/видео.html&ab_channel=Skallagrim
Some balrogs are killed in War of wrath, so by weapons from Valinor. I don't think this is have something to do with weapon, just with warrior's skill.
Regarding the supposition of Gothmog surviving into the third age and what it might have meant, well I doubt the one ring would ever have been created because Sauron couldn't have risked dividing his own strength, Gothmog was his EQUAL in rank and likely in power. There is a good chance that Sauron and Gothmog would have been in conflict with each other as well as Elves and Men.
Gothmog was not Sauron's equal. Tolkien described the Balrogs as Lesser Maiar and Sauron as High/great Maiar:
"Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"*
[The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed]
Also the Silmarillion says that Sauron was Gothmog's chief
Balrogs answered to Morgoth not to Sauron. Morgoth was their master.
I believe Tolkien wrote in notes, letters, or whatnot that Morgoth could/might return but that idea wasnt addressed in published works.
The One Ring heard its masters call. Id think the balrogs would wait till they heard theirs. My guess is that Gothmog would neither help nor interfere with Sauron’s plans. Hed wait. Who knows tho!
Kewl vid.
Can you do a video on The Last Alliance?
I've always thought that LOTR is just perfect for alternative history/alt universe type writing.
If I were to write it, it would be dire since I'd probably focus on keeping some of these great big bads alive. Like Gothmog or the father of dragons etc.
But yeah, I'm 100% certain that Sauron would have gotten his ring back and won if he had Gothmog as his ally. Though they both would probably betray the heck out of each other once the time was right lol.
Having Gothmog at the third age will definitely change the odds, however I'm not sure what would happen, not sure even if Durin's Bane being Maia same as Sauron would pledge as vassal of Sauron... or joint forces against elves most likely.
Saurons influence was already a tough task.. what about another being who used to be on par with him in rank and the probably ferocity.. I think how we know the third age wouldve been a cake walk compared to that hypothetical.
I just wanna know how deep was that fountain lol... I could see if they fell off a cliff into an ocean but a fountain that sounds like he was nerfed to me. I have some reading to do
Just great!
If Gothmog had survived, my bets are it would have been him, not Sauron as the main antagonist when Melkor was defeated.
Well actually no, one thing is that Sauron as mairon was already among most powerfull Maiar, equeal probably only to Eonwe and Osse, and did not dimnished his power contrary to Melkor, also it is stated he was probably the wisest and most inteligent of the Ainur, that is why Melkor wanted to corrupt him and gave him Angband when he was resided in Utumno and made him his right hand. Gothmog on other hand was also great Maia but not among the most powerfull (he was among the rank comaprable to Saruman nd Gandalf when they were not hiding their power) becouse we need to remember that balrogs where all in all 7 in total and Tolkien made them extremly powerfull than it was in the first draft of Legendarium (when there were hundreds of the but less powerfull). Gothmog was powerfull but he was the one to execute on to govern
No, Gothmog was a lesser Maiar while Sauron was a high/great Maiar:
"Both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. *Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs"*
[The History of Middle Earth Vol 10: Morgoth’s Ring. Myths Transformed]
And Sauron was "The Chief Captain of Morgoth" so he was Gothmog's chief at the same time:
"And there is Sauron. In the Silmarillion
and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service
of the Enemy and *becoming his chief captain and servant."*
[The Silmarillion, p 18]
So if Gothmog was alive during the Sauron's era, he could have been forced to serve Sauron or Sauron would 'destroy' him because Sauron would see him as a treat to his dominion. Sauron rules the weather, lightning and the storms, he raises the mountain-sized waves of the sea, he erupts the massive volcanoes and earthquakes at will. His mere dark presence causes the greatest elven warriors to flee in fear and dismay. Sauron is the Maia who broke the power of Ulmo(the second most powerful Valar) and his Maia Uinen's power within the Tol-Sirion. Sauron managed to defy the might lightning of Manwe(the Most powerful Valar) at the topmost of the temple of Melkor in Numenor. Sauron had been described as " the greatest servant of Morgoth " thrice.
He was superior to Gothmog in every case
@@SauroniastyPL agreed to the letter
@@_semih_ That's true but feats bear out differently. Who kills three powerful elven warriors and which one gets nailed by a dog?
@@jeffreygao3956 1) Aannd... Gothmog got pushed off and drowned in the pool lol
That bit really depends on one's individual speculations: would Gothmog ally with Sauron, or would Sauron have a competiton from his equal of the darkness. In this situation it is likely that Sauron would go for the diplomatic way, promising whatever Balrogs he comes to terms with that they would share middle earth as kings and gods, plannig to get rid of them all as soon as he gets back into his former self and not just middle earth, but Arda alltogether is conquered by Morgoth's host
Those two high Kings of gondolin deserve some major props.! They did not go out like bitches to say the least they fought those bad guys with their very soul and they may have lost but they saved thousands of others there is no other greater deed on any Earth
I could imagine if he did survived him and Durin Bane would of either teamed up with Sauron and with Smaug if he survived too, and Saruman then Middle Earth and the free people would of been in chaos and the War of the Ring would of been really worse, or Gothmog with Durin Bane would of fought against both Sauron and the free people.
I always thought the hidden city was betrayed by elf who gave up the location with the promise of ruling the city
I do not think the Valar, after defeating and capturing Morgoth, would have suffered Gothmog to just run free. So there's little chance Gothmog would've made it to the 3rd Age in any event.
I need them to do a 1st age LOTR saga
Question, was the last Balrog to exist the one from the Fellowship of the Ring in Moria?
Bulldog confirmed that gothmog was stronger than sauron
Truee
Cool video, but how come you covered the death of Fingon twice?
Could you give us a ballpark estimate for when the short film may be released, and roughly about how long it may be, please? I'm super excited about this for you guys and myself also, I know it will be great! Keep up the great work my fellow LOTR fanatics!!!
Very hard to say. We have obviously been thrown so far behind with the pandemic. But we are still hoping to have it done by end of next year :) Part 1 is likely to be 25-30 minutes :)
@@TheBrokenSword part one! I didn't know it was a multi parrt deal! Thanks for the reply, and I love what you guys are doing with the LOTR and all that goes with it! I'll be joining you guys on patreon, may not be much but I'll do what I can!
Due to the fact Gothmog was a spirit of fire and destruction, and sauron a spirit of domination and control. I believe if gothmog had survived the war of wrath he would have revealed himself very early into the second age. If he did not I imagine he would have been in a slumber like durins bane. Either the white council knowing of gothmogs existence likely would have confronted and defeated or attempted to weaken him prior to Daytona return in the third age or not knowing his existence I imagine he would have awoken or been drawn to Saurons growing power similar to Smaug, sauron would absolutely have been his superior. But I believe Gandalf or glorfindel would have been allowed by the valar to use there new power in confronting the Balrogs magic in a way he would not be able to against sauron and would ultimately prove victorious. Being that Gandalf and the fellowships quests is in nature’s meant to be victorious but it likely would have been a hugely important and destructive battle
What are the executive producer levels for the film?
If Gothmog had survived and been working along with Sauron, I feel that one major thing would've changed. I feel the War of the Last Alliance would've been lost by the Free Peoples and the Ring wouldn't leave Sauron's hand. Gothmog would easily be able to dispatch Gil-Galad himself which would leave Sauron not fatigued, leaving him to kill Elendil.
I don't think so. Gil-Galad was a beast himself. I don't think Gothmog could gave stood against Gil- Galad alone. He couldn't even stand against Ecthalion.
@@michaelharmon7052 I think he would be enough to make a difference, making it a 2v2 instead of the 1v2 which saw everyone involved thrown down. That and Gothmog would be able to gather any other Balrogs such as Durin's Bane or any others that still lie in the darker places of the world. I'm just generally of the opinion that everything had to go *perfectly* for the Free Peoples to achieve their victory against Sauron.
@@Swatman170 Tuor killed 5 balrogs single handedly and Ecthelion killed 3. I don't think The balrogs were capable of withstanding the might of the elves alone. Just look a at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth alone. While i think it would have been more difficult to defeat the dark lord had these balrogs not died early on. I still believe it would have ended the way it ended either way.
@@michaelharmon7052 I seriously doubt that since even against just sauron the aliance *barley* achieved victory and since sauron was weaker at the end of the second age than in the first age gothmog could have been just as or maybe even slightly stronger than sauron if he survived up til then
@@theenjeneer2792 you forget that by the time of the last alliance the mightiest elves were already killed or sailed west so that argument is moot.
I wish i found this amazing channel long time ago! Keep up the great work!
Thanks 😊
Tolkien did come up with some awesome names for the various battles in middle-earth. However he must have given up when he named a battle between the elves and Sauron. He called it, "The Battle Between The Elves and Sauron."... SOO creative. lol
lol
I think if Gothmog survived until the third age and we saw him allied with Sauron he would’ve been at the Pelennor fields where we would see him and Glorfindel defeat one another.
that would be cool, but tbh, gothmog would likely ignore the war, and sauron. kinda like durin's bain. if the heroes happened to cross his path, he would fight. but otherwise, he would feel unmotivated by sauron. melkor was more focused on destruction as revenge, on illuvitar. sauron wants order above all. the balrogs seem only loyal to morgoth.
Gothmog was a lot more powerful than Glorfiendel.
Can you explain how Gothmog was killed when his flame was extinguished, how did Durin's bane survive the plunge into the icy cold waters under the misty mountains when fighting Gandalf?
As a new viewer, what does his intro voice say? Its a little too deep and I cant hear whats being said but it sounds cool
Wasn't there a ring that controlled water? If all it took was water to kill this guy I think one of the elves would have figured out a way to do so where he would not have made it very far in the third age.
Gothmog - Defeated by a headbutt and water. 🤣🤣🤣
I think a third age with Gothmog AND Sauron is terrifying. He's probably close enough in power to contest Sauron, so I doubt he would serve him unless forced or bound to Sauron's will. Sauron would probably approach him with an alliance to take out the free people's and divide Middle Earth; planning to divide it later, kill Gothmog and take it all. We don't really know anything about his personality but we know he's warlike so IF he accepts that alliance Middle Earth is super boned. If Gothmog rejects then he'd probably go to war with Sauron as if he'd survived the imprisonment of Morgoth he would most likely have gathered forces to himself. The outcome of that war could be terrible if it fell outside of Mordor but if it were resigned to the east then ME actually gets more time to prepare for the inevitable war with whoever wins between Gothmog and Sauron. Anyway his survival to the third age would probably change the timeline in a lot of ways. I could easily see him taking up the Dark Lord mantle before Sauron's return to Middle Earth
Dribble, ... Dribble, ... shoot,... SWISH! Oh, I thought you said 'ball-hog'.
What’s the difference between Gothmog and Durin’s Bane, given that Durin’s Bane didn’t drown in the waters under Moria?
I believe the fountains of Gondolin are enchanted by the elves and Ulmo.
I'd say just like the one in moria, without a master or direction he would have slept away in a cavern of sorts . Before anyone says saruman had control of that balrog I don't think that was what was happening. I think he sensed the wizards power and recognized it to be a foe. I also heard the goblins of moria worshiped the balrog as some kinda god lol
Great video but it contains one of my least favorite clips from LotR. 1:28
The witch king was terrified of Gandalf. He was powerful yes, but nothing compared to a Maia at full power (which he was as Gandalf the White)
Make a story about Nar the dwarf from Thror's Comb