I am amazed at how well you manage to compress years of knowledge and experience into each of your videos, how easy it is to listen to you and understand and how likeable you are. You and a small number of others are truly enjoyable to follow. Thanks once again for your time my friend.
Thanks again. Had my Canon Pro 300 printer a couple of months now and paper is my current issue .I kicked off with Canon paper which seams good and reasonably priced here in Ozz. I have taken on board your wise words and will not to get carried away with expensive exotics or el cheapos at the other end. Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge again. Cheers.
As a numpty I (years ago) bought a Canon camera, Canon printer and Canon printer. All I wanted was a "decent" result IRW for non paying people. Using just DPP4 (effectively) I ended up OK ................My living is elsewhere, but your knowledge is so much appreciated.
Such a great video that doesn't just say "here are the best papers according to me and here are the affiliate links" like most others but actually goes into the considerations for choosing some type over the other. Thank you very much for the insight!
Thanks for the very informative videos. You helped me to decide between ET8550 and P900. Eventually I bought the former, knowing its strength and weaknesses. I think it is good enough for a serious amateur like me, and I am quite pleased with the result I got with the OEM papers. While I am just looking around for papers that works well for B&W printing and there comes this video. Thank you for your generosity in sharing your knowledge and experience , and I think a lot of us benefit from your videos and materials on your website.
Extremely helpful videos Keith. Just binged on about 20 of these videos in the past day or so. Really powerful to absorb the mindset of someone seeped in a niche field like this, I feel like you have saved me hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of head scratching on this commercial project I have coming up. Thanks and keep it up brother!
Thanks! Did you check my detailed index to all my videos? I've tried to make it easier to find what I've done in specific areas than the rather poor YT search. www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/
Another very interesting commentary based on vast experience. I use a very limited range of papers which I select for a particular image based on how warm or neutral the paper is and how I think it will complement the content and colour tones in the image.
Great video, thank you. I did entertain myself during lockdown trying many different papers with my new Canon Pro100. This was very informative for me, I was hard pressed to tell which paper was which without looking at the note on the back. If the print was viewed on it's own with nothing to compare it to... no hope (obviously I could tell gloss, lustre etc). I have settled for a couple of papers that I use regularly; a lustre and a matt. they stood out to me more than the others. As you said it was for me not anyone else, and it was lock down.
When I think of "basic papers" I think of the manufacturer's own papers. They have spent fortunes making them work perfectly. That should be your base line before venturing into expensive papers and making profiles. Baryta, FYI, is a clay and it is the coating for fiber based wet darkroom prints. Great summary of the types of surfaces and their pro's and con's.
Thanks - the paper market is one much obscured by having few companies actually making and coating paper, whilst a lot pay to have it supplied with their own labelling. Ah... I'd not say they have not spent a fortune making them 'perfect'. They are papers which have been tested on the printer, but that says nothing in particular about their quality. It is the fact that they represent reference paper used for creating the media types and handling which matters. PS If I might add, putting my ex-geologist hat on for a moment... Baryta is actually Barium Sulphate [found as barite] - not a clay. The clay used in some papers is usually kaolin [aka 'china clay']
I've stuck with Red River paper as it has all the sizes I need or want. Like you, I use multiple types of papers. I appreciated your thoughts on the subject, a great way of summing things up. Thanks.
I chose the papertype first on what do I want to tell with the picture. Should it pop? I would go with a more shiny/semi gloss paper. Is the picture more about mood? Then towards matte. The bigger the size, the more texture works for me. Fortunately, my local shop displays prints on various papers, so I can take a look and imagine how it would work with my pictures. If the paper works with my printer as I want it to ... That I need to test.
I love paper talk, I personally only use hahnemuhle photo rag metallic for my more contrasting prints, plus i got a 24 inch sample roll of it and cant get over it. But thats the only luster ish I hands down love. But for matte i just love the hahnemuhle museum etching, and the sugar cane paper from their natural line. And this is just from my experience making a sample book for my college program. I often find that what you should be looking for how you enjoy the rendering of black when it comes to matte and understanding micro texture for gallery prints. And when it comes to luster its what makes an image have a luster pattern that adds to your image overall.
Yes, something many people never really think about in any depth. Making icc profiles does give me a lot more feel for how the paper performs - that's properly looking at the profiling charts as well as making the measurements.
I don't think it's a bad idea to try different paper types so long as you are competent and getting good consistent results with a base paper first. I'd suggest anybody new getting into printing for the first time stick with a lustre/satin type paper as these are essentially middling papers in terms of surface and texture. The paper choice can really enhance or downplay an images strengths and weaknesses. Sure, you'll use quite a bit of ink experimenting but how else will you learn otherwise? 😉
I came to the same conclusion regarding large prints on glossy-vs-matte papers just last year. Dpreview forum love their charts and Dmax statistics and they can have them ;D . I'm glad I made the effort to make the prints to compare them in real-life. My test audience picked the (art-type) matte prints as being the ones as most visually pleasing and most colourful. Now my favourite images (including saturated, high-contrast and B&W) are printed on selected matte papers. Baryta papers are only chosen for specific images when I prefer to show some gloss - very rarely.
Yes - getting people to look at prints is the key. Any time I see Dmax appear somewhere [closely followed by 'gamut volumes'] my eyes start to glaze... ;-)
I bought a Canon G650 a few months ago, since it just fit the bill for what I wanted to do. Got fed up with the lack of paper specific icc profiles pretty quickly (working on windows, so none of the funny wait print driver business). And in that situation printing a test image on eight papers from a sample pack coming with free icc profiles was pretty enlightening for me. I guess that's not necessarily what you're warning against. Just wanted to contrast my personal positive experience.
Another great video :) Before I saw one of many videos where you state "Start with oem papers", I got a great offer on a variety of Ilford papers. Luckily I got I consistenly prints rather quickly using ICC-profiles from the manufacturer, after having printed some prints on OEM paper. Taking your test sample as my "religion" when printing, I have made test prints on all the papers, with I have in a binder (correct word?), soo I can look at , what a given paper does to a picture, if I want to print on a different paper than my standard paper (Ilford Smoot Pearl, should be pretty semilur til hahnemühle Photo Pearl, both in quality and price). having been baryta-corious, I bought two sample packs from hahnemuhle - First pack went to printin the test image to make sure, that the print were looking good, they are we sould. Funny ting is, that I'm finding myself using the same 3-4 types of paper :)
Such a practical guy, hands on & very informative to the point with expertise. I have a canon prograf 300 pro, less than 2 yrs old but the ink seems to smudge even when left for ten mins before I pick it up from front tray after printing. Still using canon originals not compatibles. Is that an ink or paper bad batch, especially on darker colours. Is there a live span for pigment ink bought but perhaps not a new batch say. Will it work with higher quality papers but not just canon, but to same rating, ie, not the cheapest £shop quality obviously.
Thanks The usual reason for not drying is a 'wrong' paper. If you use a glossy paper, but with a matt paper setting, the matt black may not dry properly.
Found problem, not a paper thing. I have corel's paintshop pro 22 version, equivalent to photoshop. When I print direct from Corel same settings to canon pro 300, it smudges. Then when I use canon's pro software it doesn't, same setting to canon 300. I'm sure I've missed a setting but that's what's wrong. When it sends file to canon the DPI etc & type of paper loaded ready both the same when heading to print que management. I thought exactly like you the matt to gloss issue was the problem. So any tweaking in Corel I'll save then open up canon software till found what is the issue. Thanks for the initial quick response, a star of impeccable expertise. Oh the work I'm printing is for Leicester's current comedy festival as I'm performing at Guildhall 17th 18th Feb. @@KeithCooper
Greyscale test ramp - if in my print, the blacks get crushed at, say, the 90% mark, how do I correct things? I know how to create a curve in Photoshop to lift the blacks. Are there any other methods to get a correct test ramp print?
You can create a BW icc profile with QTR and apply it in PS - you used to be able to include it in the print process and still use the B&W print mode, but that was some time ago See all the methods I've used here and in linked articles/videos www.northlight-images.co.uk/test-image-for-black-and-white-printing/ Far more detail than I'd ever include in a video... ;-)
Hi Keith I'm finding your videos so informative, thank you. I have a question - where can I get one of the test images that you so often talk about. Best David
Thanks All the references/links are usually in the video descriptions - this is my page of test images www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-test-images/ Here's the main index page for printing www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/
Great video Keith and certainly a question I had. Now just a question to myself on every print I make. Its funny really as I used to paint with watercolours a few years back and the key part of the process was the paper choice, why should photography printing be any different really, yet I didn't see it at first. I find it actually a great part of the process now to try and see the paper type an image would look good on when taking the photo. The hardest part of printing for me, is that not all images print well on any paper, even if they look great on screen. And the amount of times I spot issues on the print that I missed on a much bigger screen most of the time, is crazy.
Interesting discussion, thank you. I found after endless discussions the main target should be to get more people into printing. What would be the recommendation for an unexperienced person? In the past it would have been to avoid matt and go for a Baryta paper or for Ilford GFS (no longer available, so its ok to mention the product). But the world has changed. The new matt papers require much less knowledge and preparation. The black levels (D-Max) are now at levels which are astonishing. The printers no longer require to swap cartridges for matt. At the same time the printer companies like Epson and Canon now offer printing software which lowers the bar for the entry into the world of printing. So it now comes down to a good set of papers to start with. How many? One matt, one baryta?
To start with, I always suggest OEM papers, so you get the profiles. A lustre is still my initial choice for people setting out. Baryta papers are not so great on some printers, so it depends on the printer. You choose the printer first and then the papers - this is why I include so many in my written reviews. For example, media settings and paper choices are critical for a mixed ink printer like the et-8550
With WAY too many options to choose from (and the fog of marketing terms); after watching your videos then facing the paper seller and the myriad of papers I finally resorted to my old darkroom memories and what I liked back then to choose a finish. Alas; matte printer paper, so far, has not produced prints that I've liked unlike the old days (perhaps I have rose coloured glasses on those memories). I have some matte, some gloss, but mainly semi-gloss; luster, oyster etc. A personal bias I'll probably stick with as I'll never print enough to learn enough to maybe change my mind. LOL
Do you have a spreadsheet of all the papers you have reviewed - specifially stating the whiteness and DMax of the papers? I can use that to make decisions of which paper I would like to try out. By no means will it be the only factors I would consider, but it will give me some pointers.
No, and even if I did, I'd not publish it ;-) The nearest I've got is www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-coopers-paper-reviews/ DMax will always be missing - as a simple number it is meaningless in the context many try to use it
Yeah, I've seen that page. CIE, TAPPI, ISO, Lab, Natural and white - hmm, some of those are obvious to me (layperson), but some need deeper investigation and understanding. Still, thanks for that information. Now, I need some mental fuel before I do a deep dive into CIE, TAPPI etc. 😀
I saw your video calling for comments on problems, but didn't think much about paper at the time. So I guess, I'll mention my struggle here: I'm trying to make use of the G650's ability to do panoramic prints, but my search for paper fitting that has at most turned up an Epson 8" x 10 m roll. If I use a profiling service, this might do. But I just can't shake the feeling I'm not familiar with the right search terms to come up with a wider selection.
If you cut an A2 sheet in half lengthways you get a convenient panoramic size [double A4] which fits the G650 Very few suppliers produce pano cut sheets or stock such narrow roll paper. What you've found is often used in photo kiosks and the like
It's difficult to know for sure - There are no strict definitions and words like 'Pearl' are set as much by marketing departments. If I see a paper described as such, I've only a loose idea of what it may look like...
Have you heard of Brilliant paper? Wex's own brand. I quite like the paper, though they don't offer profiles for my ET-8550. I'm sure it's a known brand that's been repackaged but can't work out which so I won't be buying any yet - have considered sending off to a profile maker, but for how little paper I was given when I bought something else from Wex it isn't worth it. I'm going to keep researching though and will see if I can somehow work out who's paper it is, I'm fairly sure it's German from the packaging. One thing I have wondered though is how long should a print be left before framing, putting in a display book or folder? I can't seem able to find a straight answer - perhaps presenting prints could be a good future video?
Don't know that one - yes a rebrand almost certainly. Don't expect profiles anywhere... I prefer papers from suppliers who will provide profiles such as Fotospeed, PermaJet and Paper Spectrum. I like to leave prints out in the open for at least a week, to get rid of solvents - only general advice though since it depends so much on printer/paper combinations.
@@KeithCooper They only seem to offer profiles for the usual Canons and P600/700/800/900 etc. I have tried Permajet, available at my local independent camera shop and with profiles for my printer as you say. I'm just gradually learning with what I can see easily at first until I know exactly what I want and feel happier ordering in larger quantities. I've a display book to fill and hope to find the perfect paper(s) for my taste. I am very pleased with the print quality as you mentioned in your reviews and printing "big" (A3) definitely works well.
@@KeithCooper That is very true, though not a service Brilliant offer. It's a shame really as, from the samples I acquired, it's nicely finished paper.
Yes - profiling, is to me. a service which sets apart the better suppliers, the ones more committed to print. Wex have tended to be on the 'box shifting' side of the business ;-)
Curious: How many people's prints come out wrong? And why? Because you have said in many videos, with modern printers, it is quite difficult to get prints wrong.
It's difficult to get bad prints from a modern printer once you eliminate user incompetence ;-) [myself included] By far and away the most common issues are caused by having the screen too bright, second is not having good lighting to view prints in. Colour/tone drifts can come from bad screen setup. The most common other cause of 'disappointing' prints is poor photography and editing skills :-) :-)
Great video Keith. I have also a question, maybe stupid, but I'm starting my journey in printing: these test images I should print without any editing and only with ICC profiles?
So thinking of going down the Pro 300 canon route. Print mostly black and white. What paper would you recommend? Would you recommend a different printer even?
Heavy structured papers works only nice in very big paper sizes. With Small formats the structure becomes proportionally way too coarse for a nice rendering.
What is a dark room paper? I have not taken photos on film. I have not processed film in a dark room. So, I do not have first hand experience as to what a traditional dark room paper looks/feels like. And the term dark room paper seems to be bandied about for a number of papers. So, what is it? And should anyone care? Because, a lot of Gen Z, will never have known a dark room paper.
An excellent question and one I ask myself any time someone asks me about it, or I find myself repeating it... It's not even a gen w/x/y/z thing... even most people who got into photography at some time in the 20th century won't be able to answer the question. There is always the feeling that it's sometimes used as a term used to exclude the 'photographically illiterate' - much like naming 'famous' photographers... ;-)
If it's commercial, I do have quite a lot of videos relating to the business aspects as well. See the detailed index for more www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/
![3 steps when printing your photos. What's so difficult? Really - I'd like to know [AMA request]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UgCn63JZK7Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![3 steps when printing your photos. What's so difficult? Really - I'd like to know [AMA request]](/img/tr.png)
I am amazed at how well you manage to compress years of knowledge and experience into each of your videos, how easy it is to listen to you and understand and how likeable you are. You and a small number of others are truly enjoyable to follow. Thanks once again for your time my friend.
Thanks - glad it's of help!
Thanks again. Had my Canon Pro 300 printer a couple of months now and paper is my current issue .I kicked off with Canon paper which seams good and reasonably priced here in Ozz. I have taken on board your wise words and will not to get carried away with expensive exotics or el cheapos at the other end. Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge again. Cheers.
Glad I could help!
As a numpty I (years ago) bought a Canon camera, Canon printer and Canon printer. All I wanted was a "decent" result IRW for non paying people. Using just DPP4 (effectively) I ended up OK ................My living is elsewhere, but your knowledge is so much appreciated.
Thanks - glad it's of help!
Such a great video that doesn't just say "here are the best papers according to me and here are the affiliate links" like most others but actually goes into the considerations for choosing some type over the other. Thank you very much for the insight!
Thanks - Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the very informative videos. You helped me to decide between ET8550 and P900. Eventually I bought the former, knowing its strength and weaknesses. I think it is good enough for a serious amateur like me, and I am quite pleased with the result I got with the OEM papers. While I am just looking around for papers that works well for B&W printing and there comes this video. Thank you for your generosity in sharing your knowledge and experience , and I think a lot of us benefit from your videos and materials on your website.
Thanks
For a bit more B&W info specific to the 8550, do see the main written review
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/
great info, thanks. i liked the part about glossy working with small and reflection sharpness changing with distance.
Thanks - I'd was just wondering why small glossy print always seemed to have less concern with reflections...
Thank you for a top notch video. Most helpful and practical advice Keith :)
Thanks
This cleared up a LOT of things and will help me have more confidence in my plans for printing. Thank you, Keith!
Thanks - glad it's of interest!
Gloss for small prints. Good point! Makes sense. I learnt something. Thank you.
Thanks - Glad it was of interest!
Extremely helpful videos Keith. Just binged on about 20 of these videos in the past day or so. Really powerful to absorb the mindset of someone seeped in a niche field like this, I feel like you have saved me hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of head scratching on this commercial project I have coming up. Thanks and keep it up brother!
Thanks!
Did you check my detailed index to all my videos? I've tried to make it easier to find what I've done in specific areas than the rather poor YT search.
www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/
@@KeithCooper Thanks! Checked out the website, missed that archive 👍
Thanks!
Thanks!
Another very interesting commentary based on vast experience. I use a very limited range of papers which I select for a particular image based on how warm or neutral the paper is and how I think it will complement the content and colour tones in the image.
Thanks
Again informative and enjoyable - appreciated, Keith
Thanks!
Great video, thank you. I did entertain myself during lockdown trying many different papers with my new Canon Pro100. This was very informative for me, I was hard pressed to tell which paper was which without looking at the note on the back. If the print was viewed on it's own with nothing to compare it to... no hope (obviously I could tell gloss, lustre etc). I have settled for a couple of papers that I use regularly; a lustre and a matt. they stood out to me more than the others. As you said it was for me not anyone else, and it was lock down.
Thanks - I'd also be lost but for the pencil notes on the back of some prints ;-)
When I think of "basic papers" I think of the manufacturer's own papers. They have spent fortunes making them work perfectly. That should be your base line before venturing into expensive papers and making profiles.
Baryta, FYI, is a clay and it is the coating for fiber based wet darkroom prints.
Great summary of the types of surfaces and their pro's and con's.
Thanks - the paper market is one much obscured by having few companies actually making and coating paper, whilst a lot pay to have it supplied with their own labelling.
Ah... I'd not say they have not spent a fortune making them 'perfect'. They are papers which have been tested on the printer, but that says nothing in particular about their quality. It is the fact that they represent reference paper used for creating the media types and handling which matters.
PS If I might add, putting my ex-geologist hat on for a moment... Baryta is actually Barium Sulphate [found as barite] - not a clay. The clay used in some papers is usually kaolin [aka 'china clay']
@@KeithCooper Ah yes about the baryta. Too many years since I had reason to know about that. Thanks for the correction, Mr. Geologist.
I've stuck with Red River paper as it has all the sizes I need or want. Like you, I use multiple types of papers. I appreciated your thoughts on the subject, a great way of summing things up. Thanks.
Thanks!
Good tips Kieth.
Thanks
Very interesting, most informative, thank you!
Thanks!
Thank you Keith 😊
Glad it was of interest
It was. Thank you
I chose the papertype first on what do I want to tell with the picture. Should it pop? I would go with a more shiny/semi gloss paper. Is the picture more about mood? Then towards matte. The bigger the size, the more texture works for me. Fortunately, my local shop displays prints on various papers, so I can take a look and imagine how it would work with my pictures. If the paper works with my printer as I want it to ... That I need to test.
Yes - having real samples to view always helps
Very informative - many thanks !
Glad it was helpful!
I love paper talk, I personally only use hahnemuhle photo rag metallic for my more contrasting prints, plus i got a 24 inch sample roll of it and cant get over it.
But thats the only luster ish I hands down love. But for matte i just love the hahnemuhle museum etching, and the sugar cane paper from their natural line. And this is just from my experience making a sample book for my college program.
I often find that what you should be looking for how you enjoy the rendering of black when it comes to matte and understanding micro texture for gallery prints. And when it comes to luster its what makes an image have a luster pattern that adds to your image overall.
Yes, something many people never really think about in any depth. Making icc profiles does give me a lot more feel for how the paper performs - that's properly looking at the profiling charts as well as making the measurements.
I don't think it's a bad idea to try different paper types so long as you are competent and getting good consistent results with a base paper first. I'd suggest anybody new getting into printing for the first time stick with a lustre/satin type paper as these are essentially middling papers in terms of surface and texture. The paper choice can really enhance or downplay an images strengths and weaknesses. Sure, you'll use quite a bit of ink experimenting but how else will you learn otherwise? 😉
Yes - my normal suggestion is to start with lustre
I came to the same conclusion regarding large prints on glossy-vs-matte papers just last year. Dpreview forum love their charts and Dmax statistics and they can have them ;D . I'm glad I made the effort to make the prints to compare them in real-life. My test audience picked the (art-type) matte prints as being the ones as most visually pleasing and most colourful. Now my favourite images (including saturated, high-contrast and B&W) are printed on selected matte papers. Baryta papers are only chosen for specific images when I prefer to show some gloss - very rarely.
Yes - getting people to look at prints is the key.
Any time I see Dmax appear somewhere [closely followed by 'gamut volumes'] my eyes start to glaze... ;-)
And then there's Matt Baryta from Canson ... I love it!
I bought a Canon G650 a few months ago, since it just fit the bill for what I wanted to do. Got fed up with the lack of paper specific icc profiles pretty quickly (working on windows, so none of the funny wait print driver business). And in that situation printing a test image on eight papers from a sample pack coming with free icc profiles was pretty enlightening for me. I guess that's not necessarily what you're warning against. Just wanted to contrast my personal positive experience.
Yes - the G650 takes some effort. I'm told the profiles in my review do work quite easily on win pcs, but proper icc profiles certainly help
Another great video :)
Before I saw one of many videos where you state "Start with oem papers", I got a great offer on a variety of Ilford papers. Luckily I got I consistenly prints rather quickly using ICC-profiles from the manufacturer, after having printed some prints on OEM paper.
Taking your test sample as my "religion" when printing, I have made test prints on all the papers, with I have in a binder (correct word?), soo I can look at , what a given paper does to a picture, if I want to print on a different paper than my standard paper (Ilford Smoot Pearl, should be pretty semilur til hahnemühle Photo Pearl, both in quality and price).
having been baryta-corious, I bought two sample packs from hahnemuhle - First pack went to printin the test image to make sure, that the print were looking good, they are we sould.
Funny ting is, that I'm finding myself using the same 3-4 types of paper :)
Thanks - glad to have helped in the process!
Such a practical guy, hands on & very informative to the point with expertise. I have a canon prograf 300 pro, less than 2 yrs old but the ink seems to smudge even when left for ten mins before I pick it up from front tray after printing. Still using canon originals not compatibles. Is that an ink or paper bad batch, especially on darker colours. Is there a live span for pigment ink bought but perhaps not a new batch say. Will it work with higher quality papers but not just canon, but to same rating, ie, not the cheapest £shop quality obviously.
Thanks
The usual reason for not drying is a 'wrong' paper.
If you use a glossy paper, but with a matt paper setting, the matt black may not dry properly.
Found problem, not a paper thing. I have corel's paintshop pro 22 version, equivalent to photoshop. When I print direct from Corel same settings to canon pro 300, it smudges. Then when I use canon's pro software it doesn't, same setting to canon 300. I'm sure I've missed a setting but that's what's wrong. When it sends file to canon the DPI etc & type of paper loaded ready both the same when heading to print que management. I thought exactly like you the matt to gloss issue was the problem. So any tweaking in Corel I'll save then open up canon software till found what is the issue. Thanks for the initial quick response, a star of impeccable expertise. Oh the work I'm printing is for Leicester's current comedy festival as I'm performing at Guildhall 17th 18th Feb. @@KeithCooper
Thanks! - hope the shows go well!
Greyscale test ramp - if in my print, the blacks get crushed at, say, the 90% mark, how do I correct things?
I know how to create a curve in Photoshop to lift the blacks. Are there any other methods to get a correct test ramp print?
You can create a BW icc profile with QTR and apply it in PS - you used to be able to include it in the print process and still use the B&W print mode, but that was some time ago
See all the methods I've used here and in linked articles/videos
www.northlight-images.co.uk/test-image-for-black-and-white-printing/
Far more detail than I'd ever include in a video... ;-)
Cool, something else I have to investigate.
Really thank you
Glad it was of interest!
Hi Keith I'm finding your videos so informative, thank you. I have a question - where can I get one of the test images that you so often talk about. Best David
Thanks
All the references/links are usually in the video descriptions - this is my page of test images
www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-test-images/
Here's the main index page for printing
www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/
Great video Keith and certainly a question I had. Now just a question to myself on every print I make. Its funny really as I used to paint with watercolours a few years back and the key part of the process was the paper choice, why should photography printing be any different really, yet I didn't see it at first. I find it actually a great part of the process now to try and see the paper type an image would look good on when taking the photo. The hardest part of printing for me, is that not all images print well on any paper, even if they look great on screen. And the amount of times I spot issues on the print that I missed on a much bigger screen most of the time, is crazy.
Yes, there is never a shortage of things to look into ;-)
Interesting discussion, thank you. I found after endless discussions the main target should be to get more people into printing. What would be the recommendation for an unexperienced person? In the past it would have been to avoid matt and go for a Baryta paper or for Ilford GFS (no longer available, so its ok to mention the product). But the world has changed. The new matt papers require much less knowledge and preparation. The black levels (D-Max) are now at levels which are astonishing. The printers no longer require to swap cartridges for matt. At the same time the printer companies like Epson and Canon now offer printing software which lowers the bar for the entry into the world of printing. So it now comes down to a good set of papers to start with. How many? One matt, one baryta?
To start with, I always suggest OEM papers, so you get the profiles.
A lustre is still my initial choice for people setting out.
Baryta papers are not so great on some printers, so it depends on the printer.
You choose the printer first and then the papers - this is why I include so many in my written reviews.
For example, media settings and paper choices are critical for a mixed ink printer like the et-8550
With WAY too many options to choose from (and the fog of marketing terms); after watching your videos then facing the paper seller and the myriad of papers I finally resorted to my old darkroom memories and what I liked back then to choose a finish. Alas; matte printer paper, so far, has not produced prints that I've liked unlike the old days (perhaps I have rose coloured glasses on those memories). I have some matte, some gloss, but mainly semi-gloss; luster, oyster etc. A personal bias I'll probably stick with as I'll never print enough to learn enough to maybe change my mind. LOL
Yes, getting good results from matte can be problematic on some printers
Do you have a spreadsheet of all the papers you have reviewed - specifially stating the whiteness and DMax of the papers? I can use that to make decisions of which paper I would like to try out. By no means will it be the only factors I would consider, but it will give me some pointers.
No, and even if I did, I'd not publish it ;-)
The nearest I've got is
www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-coopers-paper-reviews/
DMax will always be missing - as a simple number it is meaningless in the context many try to use it
Yeah, I've seen that page. CIE, TAPPI, ISO, Lab, Natural and white - hmm, some of those are obvious to me (layperson), but some need deeper investigation and understanding. Still, thanks for that information. Now, I need some mental fuel before I do a deep dive into CIE, TAPPI etc. 😀
Just remember, I include the numbers to help people find similar papers, not because I consider them of any significance ;-)
Keith, what is your take on Canson's Matt Baryta II paper? I got some to print someone else's work on, and am really loving it ...
Not tried it I'm afraid...
I can't afford to buy stuff like this just for testing, so am very dependent on what I get sent to look at
I saw your video calling for comments on problems, but didn't think much about paper at the time. So I guess, I'll mention my struggle here:
I'm trying to make use of the G650's ability to do panoramic prints, but my search for paper fitting that has at most turned up an Epson 8" x 10 m roll. If I use a profiling service, this might do. But I just can't shake the feeling I'm not familiar with the right search terms to come up with a wider selection.
If you cut an A2 sheet in half lengthways you get a convenient panoramic size [double A4] which fits the G650
Very few suppliers produce pano cut sheets or stock such narrow roll paper. What you've found is often used in photo kiosks and the like
Back when I printed Cibachrome, I preferred Pearl to the super glossy. I don't know if today's Pearl is similar.
It's difficult to know for sure - There are no strict definitions and words like 'Pearl' are set as much by marketing departments. If I see a paper described as such, I've only a loose idea of what it may look like...
Have you heard of Brilliant paper? Wex's own brand. I quite like the paper, though they don't offer profiles for my ET-8550. I'm sure it's a known brand that's been repackaged but can't work out which so I won't be buying any yet - have considered sending off to a profile maker, but for how little paper I was given when I bought something else from Wex it isn't worth it. I'm going to keep researching though and will see if I can somehow work out who's paper it is, I'm fairly sure it's German from the packaging.
One thing I have wondered though is how long should a print be left before framing, putting in a display book or folder? I can't seem able to find a straight answer - perhaps presenting prints could be a good future video?
Don't know that one - yes a rebrand almost certainly. Don't expect profiles anywhere...
I prefer papers from suppliers who will provide profiles such as Fotospeed, PermaJet and Paper Spectrum.
I like to leave prints out in the open for at least a week, to get rid of solvents - only general advice though since it depends so much on printer/paper combinations.
@@KeithCooper They only seem to offer profiles for the usual Canons and P600/700/800/900 etc.
I have tried Permajet, available at my local independent camera shop and with profiles for my printer as you say. I'm just gradually learning with what I can see easily at first until I know exactly what I want and feel happier ordering in larger quantities. I've a display book to fill and hope to find the perfect paper(s) for my taste.
I am very pleased with the print quality as you mentioned in your reviews and printing "big" (A3) definitely works well.
You can get custom profiles made for free, if you by some paper
@@KeithCooper That is very true, though not a service Brilliant offer. It's a shame really as, from the samples I acquired, it's nicely finished paper.
Yes - profiling, is to me. a service which sets apart the better suppliers, the ones more committed to print.
Wex have tended to be on the 'box shifting' side of the business ;-)
Curious: How many people's prints come out wrong? And why?
Because you have said in many videos, with modern printers, it is quite difficult to get prints wrong.
It's difficult to get bad prints from a modern printer once you eliminate user incompetence ;-) [myself included]
By far and away the most common issues are caused by having the screen too bright, second is not having good lighting to view prints in.
Colour/tone drifts can come from bad screen setup.
The most common other cause of 'disappointing' prints is poor photography and editing skills :-) :-)
Great video Keith.
I have also a question, maybe stupid, but I'm starting my journey in printing: these test images I should print without any editing and only with ICC profiles?
Thanks
Yes - print them 'as-is' using exactly the same software/settings you would for an image.
So thinking of going down the Pro 300 canon route. Print mostly black and white. What paper would you recommend? Would you recommend a different printer even?
See the papers tested and B&W print article via the main [written] review
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-300-printer-review/
How about photo books say 8x10 prints on page
I don't know what is available paper-wise I'm afraid - I've never produced any photo books.
Heavy structured papers works only nice in very big paper sizes.
With Small formats the structure becomes proportionally way too coarse for a nice rendering.
Yes - small prints which work with 'strong' surfaces are not at all common.
REALLY excessive number of ads. Nevertheless, I made it all the way since the video was good. Thanks.
Sorry about that - they are on an auto setting, but it is what helps pay for the testing.
My obsession with titanium lustre is expensive
Yes, but when it works with an image... ;-)
What is a dark room paper?
I have not taken photos on film. I have not processed film in a dark room. So, I do not have first hand experience as to what a traditional dark room paper looks/feels like. And the term dark room paper seems to be bandied about for a number of papers.
So, what is it?
And should anyone care? Because, a lot of Gen Z, will never have known a dark room paper.
An excellent question and one I ask myself any time someone asks me about it, or I find myself repeating it...
It's not even a gen w/x/y/z thing... even most people who got into photography at some time in the 20th century won't be able to answer the question.
There is always the feeling that it's sometimes used as a term used to exclude the 'photographically illiterate' - much like naming 'famous' photographers... ;-)
Thanks. I will be watching more of your videos. I am new to this and trying to make an income.
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If it's commercial, I do have quite a lot of videos relating to the business aspects as well.
See the detailed index for more
www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/