How To Identify Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Receptacles
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- Опубликовано: 27 ноя 2020
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Great video! I’m a live sound engineer and I always carry a non-contact detector as well as a three-light tester and multimeter. I was explaining to a musician I work with about doing all three tests and she was amazed, “you do this for every gig!?!” Oh yeah! On every receptacle.
Excellent. These tests are very important, especially when people will be handling electric musical equipment.
You can never be too careful around electricity but it's particularly important to have awareness as a musician who likely travels the country and has no control over what jack ups have been done to the wiring. One of my coworkers once witnessed a cable plugged into a sound system, turn red hot and melt within a split second, when plugged into an amplifier, which was connected to a different receptacle. Several thousands of dollars worth of gear had been destroyed beyond repair. Personally if I were a traveling musician or sound engineer I would invest in the Ideal Sure Test, which can detect bootleg grounds by measuring the impedance between the neutral and ground pins, and flashes "F" if it's very low, which would only happen if a short jumper were used between the neutral and ground screws. This tester cannot tell a correct polarity bootleg ground from a reverse polarity bootleg ground, but at that point, that's irrelevant, either way just don't use that outlet.
Another safety issue with sound gear is the use of 2 to 3 prong adapters which I like to call ground cheaters, in an attempt to avoid the hum caused by ground loops. In fact those are illegal in certain areas, and particularly Canada, as they should be.
Excellent video bill!! I've been in the field for about 17-18 years and have had my master electrician license for about 5 years which requires 11.5 years of experience to sit for the test in my area and I've never seen this or heard of it. My question is why would someone intentionally do this? I could see a homeowner who thinks he's a sparky make a mistake like this but a true sparky doing this intentionally just to fool an inspector? Who ever would do that should be jailed.
It's not true Sparky's. I've seen it with people selling a house and they just want to pass house inspection so they can get their money. This is only one way, there are several ways to get a tester to read correct. It's why home inspectors should have more than just a simple tester. The Ideal SureTest is very good and Fluke has a more expensive meter that will smell this kind of thing out as well. Check this beauty out: Fluke 1664 FC Multifunction Installation Tester with Fluke Connect: National Electrical Contractors: ruclips.net/video/_4gL8yRcYGA/видео.html
@@SparkyChannel Excellent educational video. Now I know another test I really need to do when checking out a home's electrical wiring. But I just don't understand why someone wouldn't just wire the outlets correctly in the first place. How long would that take? Is that home's wiring that messed up that someone would just use this illegal and dangerous trick? And are we looking a just one outlet (should be easy to correct) or is a entire circuit or circuits wired so badly that if this trick works, it saves someone from doing proper troubleshooting?
EDIT: And for all those people that say they don't need a NCVT (non contact voltage tester) in their tool kit, you just gave a excellent reason for having a good one.
Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
Great video. As an advanced DIY'er, never personally seen a condition as unethical as this, but the one of the guys i went to grade school with, is a licensed home inspector, and he tells me stories i thought were out of a horror movie ☺ anyway, he sees this more frequently especially in flipper homes way more than he cares to admit. One tip i learned from my friend is, first, don't judge a book by it's cover. If the $200 give or take bootleg ground detector is a bit out of your budget, there are other ways you might be able to spot this. Typically the signs will be , was the home built before the 1960s? If so, look at the wiring at the panel. Or in the attic or basement. If you can clearly see some old fabric braided two wire NM or knob and tube, but the receptacles test correct, that is a big red flag. Same if there is an Edison base fuse panel rather than a modern breaker panel. Another flag would be three prong receptacles in random places, while the remaining receptacles are the old two slot type. In these situations, an inspector may go beyond the scope and physically pull some receptacles out of the wall and see that jumper between the neutral and grouning terminal.
When your grandma says "honey make sure you use a cloth to open the fridge"
LOL! Good one! :)
Thank you! I have always wondered why one of the outlets in my house does this. I’m going to check it out asap!
My pleasure Erica. Yes, check it out but do it very carefully.
Sparky Channel always am 👍. I double and triple check 😊 to make sure there’s nothing live still
This is a great video and I just learned how to find this problem. Thank you. I I'm going to buy the breaker finder that is so cool.
Glad it helped!
Thanks Sparky I have most of the tools you have shown.
Excellent!!! Have a great day!
Great video. I am not an electrician by trade. Just your average DIY'r. But I've seen enough of you videos to know when you removed the "bad" outlet, I could see right away the problem!!! And although it wouldnt help the lack of a ground wire, I would have at minimum put a green wire from the outlet to the metal box!!!
Thanks! That would be a start be it needs a re-wiring.
Very good info Wild Bill ... Can save a nasty shock ...
Thanks Eddy! Have a great day!
Thank you
I've never seen a bootleg ground done that way. I've seen the ground jumped to neutral before - which is also dangerous and can energize the device. I'm not sure why you'd swap sides on the hot and neutral, or why the recept tester doesn't pick it up as reversed - but that's even worse than tying it to neutral. You're putting hot to the chassis of the equipment, and it wouldn't even depend on other conditions.
If somebody were to suggest that I do that to fool an inspector, I'd fire them.
I didn't know about this dangerous problem. Im going to check my house and garage TY
Sounds good!
Excellent video.
Thanks!
Thank you, Sparkey. I had that problem in this house. Didn't know it until I got bit. I have the Klein NCV Don't know if it works with that or not. I also spent a lot of money that gives me all kinds of readouts and tells me if there is a hot to ground or neutral to ground, or so the documentation says. Haven't had a chance to test it or to know if it is true.
If the outlet isn't really close to the panel, you can put some load on the circuit (e.g. hairdryer) and look for s small voltage between the grounded conductor (neutral) and the equipment grounding conductor.
Good point and good thinking!
Great work
Thanks Charlie!
Sparky! I think you did it again - where's the link to the other video?
"Oh, Mr. Magoo..."
Always enjoy your videos. Are you aware of a tester that would indicate when neutral and ground are reversed?
I too would like know. Even the AC splitters I see online don't have a hole to test the ground with your multimeter (to look for volt drop on neutral vs ground)
The Ideal Circuit Analyzer will reveal a bootleg ground.
Thank you for your great video. I learned some thing very important. Not to rely on the outlet testers. Is there a outlet tester that can detect this fault.
Yes, this will do that test: IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer: Amazon: amzn.to/3s6KCUb
Great video! Do you think I could email you about a problem I have? It’s a small problem and I would like to send you photos about my situation. If not I could try to explain on RUclips.
Interesting.
No links for the videos you spoke about
Do you know if either (or both) of the Klein RT250 (GFCI Receptacle Tester only at Home Depot) or the Klein RT310 (AFCI/GFCI Outlet Tester) would detect this Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground condition?
No socket tester in the US will detect it. They would have to have a pad you touch and an LCD that shows it. This is an example of a socket tester that does detect it (if you touch the pad on the top). There that detection is mandatory.
tsr-elsite.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/testboy-schuki-3lcd_01.png
You should use a voltage detector, it has the access to the true ground through you.
My outlet tester shows hot ground reverse but the tester goes off 3 inches from the outlet. Also, I have 120v from white to ground and black to ground but 7v from white to black. It's the only outlet in the house that is bad.
What you almost certainly have is an open neutral, with a load downstream trying to work. A true hot ground reverse (hot wire on ground screw, ground wire on hot screw) would almost never occur, unless of course whoever installed the receptacle was hungover after ingesting some unknown substance at last night's rave party ;-)
last month i went though my house and replaced every outlet and light switch. almost every outlet had lose screws one had a busted ground wire. in 1 room there was 2 outlets that #1 they put them in upside down #2 even though there was ground wires in the box they put them around the ground screw of the box but then cut them off and didn't hook them up to the outlet and lastly the had the hot and neutral wires hooked up backwards could not figure out how someone could screw it up so badly i mean every other outlet in the house was wired right. so i had to add ground pigtails so i could ground them then hook the wires up the right way and they test out fine hooked up the proper way i cant figure out why anyone would have did that on top of that they were aluminum wire and the outlets they had used were not even rated for aluminum use.
Wow, haven't seen this before
If your Fluke 1AC or similar tester goes crazy like in the video you'll know what might be happening. Thanks!
The tester will also act like this due to phantom voltage of an ungrounded outlet with any nearby metal, even with a properly installed GFCI.
I see the ground bootlegged off the Neutral sometimes where no equipment grounding conductor is present but I don't see a Reverse Polarity Bootleg very much.
So to find a ‘normal’ bootleg ground (neutral to ground at the outlet), my cheapest option is going to be the Sure Test? Or is there another way to detect this?
I'm on the same quest of info....... sigh
Good luck with that. There's no simple test for 'normal' bootleg other than to open the box. Even then, an unscrupulous person could wire the first outlet in a room with a 'bootleg' ground, then wire all downstream outlets properly off from that. (seen it done when rewiring an older room with just two conductors from the branch circuit feed and new 14-2 w/ ground between first outlet and rest of room)
You could do something REALLY extreme like go back to the service panel and temporarily lift all the ground wires and then use recpt tester, but that's a lot.
Wow. So this bootleg would also prevent you from getting a GFCI to work upstream.
Excellent point!
How exactly would this effect the gfci?
so true
It does happen from time to time. Thanks Dave!
I found outlets like this in my house after it failed VA inspection and they "fixed" I removed the ground to nutural jumpers and put ground to box and now my tester says open hot and nothing works
:(
Hmmm did u wire it correctly
@@Chrispbacon911 gave up paid 20k to electrican to have whole house rewired
Hi Bill
I have a friend who installed two three way dimmer switches and they work fine but the light shows 144 volts. Is that dangerous?
I would test it with another meter, that's too much voltage for USA.
@@SparkyChannel thanks Bill!
So do they do this because they don’t have a ground wire but want to install a three holed outlet and fake it to look like it has a ground ?
@ladawg81 Yikes ~ well they are saying not to do that because it’s dangerous.
. . . or maybe I misunderstood you.
It could be done with malicious intent to pass inspection like he talked about in the video, but it could also be done without malice and out of cluelessness. Until recently when I started watching videos like this, I (wrongfully) thought the idea was to have neutral connected to ground in as many places as possible, and accordingly thought that a bootleg ground was correct.
A bootleg ground actually grounds the outlet. It just is not an acceptable method in the US for various reasons. Nobody deliberately creates a reverse bootleg ground. It happens if the live and neutral have for some reason reversed upstream so the white wire no actually the live one.
A socket tester just compares the voltages, it has no reference to the true ground so it cannot tell the problem. In Finland where neutral was previously commonly used to ground socket testers must tell if there is voltage on the ground. They have a pad which one touches and an LCD shows if there is over 50 V on the ground. An LCD as it can be used with the current that goes through you.
Are there really people thinking they can get away with this? I mean here in Germany until 1973 it was permitted to have a PEN wire instead of separate ground and neutral. The PEN is a combination of Protective Earth (ground) and Neutral, so it carries the operating currents and in a fault situation also the fault current. So you can find in old german installations the PEN connected to the neutral terminal and a wire bridge over to the ground terminal of the outlet. In the last version of the VDE 0100 were this was permitted, from 1969, they insisted to connect the PEN to the ground terminal and a wire bridge to the neutral terminal.
Since 1973, if you install a PEN, the conductor must be at least of the size of 10mm² in copper or 16mm² in aluminium to reduce the chance of a broken PEN wire. 10mm² is in the range of AWG 8 or 7 (something in between). In the US this system with a PEN is called MGN, multi-grounded neutral. The MGN carries the operating currents and if a fault occurs also the fault current.
It's only permitted to recreate if you're change a defective outlet in an old installation were this measure was permitted when it was installed. But a new installation with this is not permitted. Of course a GFCI won't work with this. Only if you install a GFCI on every outlet itself, or do this and for the load outlets install new cables with a separate ground.
At least that one would be safe, compared to making the ground connection hot and killing someone...
I've seen them in old houses. Scary!
@@SparkyChannel A few years ago a tennant sued his landlord to force him replacing the electrical installation with such a system installed. The court declined. The reasons were that the installation was meeting the requirements of regulations which were in state when the electrical installation was built and this system is not considered beeing unsafe across-the-board. Also it should be clear that in a 1960s house the electrical installation is from the 1960s too in most cases, and for this the renter pay less rental as for a new house with a newer electrical installation. If the electrical installation is renewed, the landlord would have stated that and increased the rent. But if the installation still meets the requirements of the code which was in state back then, the installation itself is not defective and is safe, there's no reason to enforce the landlord to renew the installation. Maintenance and repairs are not considered as renewals.
If maintained properly that system is perfectly safe, it worked for decades. It was introduced in 1913 by the german company AEG. So it was permitted for 60 years here. In my parents house some circuits are still grounded that way.
And actually you have such a system too if you have a MGN system. If there the PEN breaks you got the same situation, except that in most cases there are additional local ground rods installed but they will only lower the voltage in most cases, but won't cause the complete trip of a circuit breaker or cause that a fuse will blow because the impedance of most ground rods is far too high, depending on the conditions of the soil.
@@okaro6595 Here only the better ones got this, but this also not reliable. Problem with this metal touch pad is, it uses the person as a reference. And if you wear insulated shoes or the floor is insulated well enough it won't indicate that the PE of the outlet is live at mains voltage.
It uses the same principle as these voltage tester screw drivers.
But I got one too, the Testboy Schuki 2K. But in most cases I rely on my other test equipment. And you also have to measure continuity between the PE terminal in the panel and the PE connection on the outlets. That's the reason for the existence of 50m test leads.
And with the installations here it's the same, you don't know who messed with it. And the last fatal accident I know of in combination with this grounding method was also a mirror cabinet in a bathroom. But this was caused by a professional electrician who messed it up. A woman was in the tub, stood up in the tub and tried to close the open mirror cabinet. The housing of the cabinet was live at mains voltage due to a messed up wiring.
There are two fatal scenarios possible:
1. Broken PEN, will cause that the appliance won't work and its metal housing is live at mains voltage.
2. Wiring messed up, the appliance will work but the housing is live at mains voltage.
But at least it was better than the alternative from the 1950s for dry rooms: Type C outlets without a protective earth, insulated floor, no other incoming different potential into the room like water pipes or pipes from a central heating system. The water pipes and the pipes from the heating system would be grounded, and so an incoming different potential. This safety measure worked like a bird sitting on an uninsulated overhead line.
The problem is when the colors are not correct like if the white wire is hot or if different colors are not even used. In 2015 a plumber in Finland died because of such an outlet. It was some illegal DIY (all DIY is banned) and the colors were same. The resident has used only double insulated devices so he did not know the problem - even though each time he was within millimeters of being shocked by the ground contacts.The floor was full of water and the tool the plumber used had an RCD but that of course does nothing to protect. Apart of that there were several non-fatal accidents in the 2010s mostly caused by a cabinet with a socket added to the bathroom.
In Finland the law in 1930 actually mandated the use of neutral for grounding. In 1957 separate groudn wire was allowed but the use of neutral remained common and was banned only in 1989. The 10 mm² trick was allowed until 2007. Before 1997 grounding was mandated only in dangerous locations (kitchens, bathrooms, conductive floor etc.)
@@okaro6595 If using the neutral also to ground the socket outlet, the wire is no longer a neutral. It's a PEN, protective earth neutral. Neutral (N) only carries the operational current, the ground/protective earth (PE) only carries fault currents, and the PEN is for both, operational and fault currents. The thing with the 10mm² is, it won't fit into the terminal of a socket outlet.
In several countries the incoming supply comes with a PEN that is splitted into a separate N and PE at the service head. Americans call it MGN (multi-grounded neutral), some call it PME, but international the correct description is TN-C-S.
why doesn't the tester at least catch the reverse polarity?
Because there is no ground wire. The ground is hooked to the white wire which just happens to be hot.
Wow. That's a scary thing. That could potentially electrocute someone. And I legit did not expect it to actually fool a tester. I thought it would have shown reverse polarity. I have a lot to learn about this kind of thing.
Incidentally, years ago I had a truck with a winch power cable attached to the battery, that was normal. The cable somehow got under the front left wheel and ripped off the truck. When that happened, the positive and negative wires touched each other causing a short. It literally shut off the engine and all the electronics inside. I had no power steering, difficult braking and couldn't even put my hazard lights on. Thankfully I got it fixed with pliers, but it was a scary moment.
Wow, good story! Thanks Noah!
In Finland a bumbler died five years ago from such a connection. What is called a
bootleg ground is perfectly legal here on older installations but it like any installations should be done by a professional. The resident had only used double insulated devices so he did not detect it. But as the earth contacts here are visible on the socket each time he used it he was at a risk of a shock.
Note that a GFCI on the equipment does not protect against this.
@@okaro6595 Holy shit. And that's legal?
I always wire my receptacles like that
lol
Wouldn't simply connecting the neutral to ground be enough to fool the tester? Why also flip the neutral and hot?
Yes, there are multiple ways to create a bootleg ground. Your way also works. Thanks!
Nobody who knows anything would deliberately make so but people do make mistakes or they just do not know what they do.
Yes you make it dangerous neutral to grounding sc safe it work fine
I have that orange one from Harbor Freight ( Ames GST-125 )
Plugged in to a working nonGFI outlet it only show the center light lit, which is undefined on the chart.
All other outlet test good / normal = two yellow lights on light are lit.
Anyone know what that means ?
It's a year later, but for anyone else interested, the Ames is confusing--the white dots actually mean dark or unlit. If you see the yellow or red dot, that means lit up. So the center light lit is the first entry on the chart - open ground.
Bootleg ground=death trap.
True!
You did not say why it was wired wrong. Why would someone connect an outlet incorrectly.
I think there are 2 problems here . Sometimes a bootleg ground is used by putting a jumper from the Neutral to ground. Thats not allowed, but it will pass (cheat) the testers so its not completely unusual to see that. In this case the 2nd problem is much worse because they jumpered the HOT to the ground. so they are also dangerously incompetent
confusion, isn't bootleg ground when the person jumps neutral to ground. Reverse neutral and hot, even an idiot playing with wires should know about that one.
The point is that if the socket is already reversed so that the white is actually the hot wire. It is really impossible to know it unless you test it with a voltage detector afterwards. Too many people blindly trust the socket testers.